ASTROMART and misconceptions
rem...@yahoo.com
I'm Remus from Singapore.
The reason for this post stems from great disappointment with the way
Astromart functions of late. A friend of mine has posted an ad recently
but only to be taken down (few hours earlier) with reasons that he may
be a dealer. Upon writing an email to Herb York to double check his
referent website (that he is INDEED NOT a dealer) has developed into
proposals of sponsorship (from my friend) and discussion of "pricing".
It seems that Herb has also given a response to him saying that
Singapore is associated with recent fraud activities. Now that
certainly puts me off. Personally, I think this is an unfair statement
especially when we have respected and enjoyed many internet hours with
everyone on the net. There might have been some facts involving
fraudulent activity originating from Asia?
There has been probably some misconceptions with Singapore being
associated with China. Well, first of all, Singapore is not in China,
neither is it part of Malaysia anymore. It is an INDEPENDENT REPUBLIC
that values its relationship with the world.
And judging from the small astronomy community that SIngapore has,
those SIngaporeans that have dealt in Astromart in the past have been
most sincere in their exchanges. Fraud? Clearly not so.
Maybe Astromart is not as "free" as before....
Please note that this email is not sent because of resentment for
Anacortes or Astromart whatever, but it is intended to clarify and
clear any misunderstandings with astronomers from SIngapore and the
world outside.
Remus
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Al
I'm sure that most people from Singapore are honest and trust
worthy...particularly those of you who are amateur astronomers. But...you
have more than one rotten apple in your small group and they are spoiling it
for all of you. I know this to be a fact because one of them burned me.
It may be a long time before I could allow myself to freely deal with
someone from Singapore again...particularly since the wounds of having been
burned the first time still hurt. Besides, a rotten apple from Singapore is
protected by more than 10,000 miles. Suggest that you find the rotten
apples and string them up...shouldn't be too difficult, as your astronomy
community is so small.
Al
<rem...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:91oarb$a8u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Space Traveler
I like for people to try and keep fraud down. It is sad that you are
a victim of the effort. I do not make deals out of the US anyway.
Just my own way to keep from getting burned when I am asked to send
money before the products ship. We must all have a level of trust to
do business on the net. You may try eBay the prices are higher
anyway.
Space Traveler
Herb York
"visits" in a month.
It is a wonderful resource for the amateur astronomy community, It is also a
very inexpensive place for ATMs and Dealers to advertise.
Unfortunately it is also a very easy place to commit fraud. Our team spends
a good amount of each day reviewing EVERY ad that is placed on AstroMart to
see if it is a known fraud artist or a non sponsoring dealer using his 3rd
alias this week or an inappropriate ad or........
We have noticed certain trends that help us sort the bad guys from the good
guys pretty well. We also have found that certain areas of the world and
certain areas of the USA have a higher frequency of problem posts. We (I) do
make mistakes from time to time when we (I) delete an ad.
The procedure runs something like this - I see an ad that is suspicious for
any of the above reasons - I delete it and contact the person that posted
it - if I made a mistake I say "I apologize" and undelete the ad - if I'm
correct then the person's ad is deleted and their account also - If the
person does not get right back to us their account is deleted. We attempt to
error on the side of the buyer. Buyers need to use their own common sense.
If a seller is posting an ad with no address and no way to get in touch with
them and will only accept certified checks or PAY PAL or money orders
delivered to a PO Box or ask you to send it to a country outside the US you
are taking a BIG risk IMHO.
There is no perfect system. We do our best but there is no way to keep
criminals off the internet.
I have noticed that almost every one we have deleted or asked to not post to
AstroMart show up on other "astro classified" sites so maybe we are wasting
our time and we should just say "Rock and Roll".
If I have offended the entire country of Singapore because there seems to be
more inappropriate behavior there than other places then I truly apologize.
While I'm at it I may as well apologize to Indonesia too because this is the
country that has the greatest number of fraudulent activities with a company
I know REAL well.
Owning a small mail order company and dealing with credit card fraud and
check fraud and ......... we do have a feel for the "latest and greatest"
scams perpetrated by criminals everywhere.
We do our best to make AstroMart safe but we get 1-4 complaints per week
about a seller and his or her money separated in a fraudulent manner.
Be careful.
Herb York
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
Anacortes Telescope and Wild Bird
(360)588-9000
(800)850-2001
aar...@removeme-shore.net
: worthy...particularly those of you who are amateur astronomers. But...you
: have more than one rotten apple in your small group and they are spoiling it
: for all of you. I know this to be a fact because one of them burned me.
Well I hope you plan on not buying from anyone in the USA either as we
sure do have a hell of alot more bad guys than Singapore! I would hate
to see an entire political/ethnic/social/etc. group stereotyped just
because of one person.
I think its clear. You judge the buyer based on their individual characteristics,
not the characteristics of others.
Astromart seems to have a good policy in that they will reinstate the
buyer if a good faith effort is put forth by the buyer to answer their
concerns. That shows astromart is at least willing to work with people
and are not making decisions solely based on geography.
rem...@my-deja.com
It is most unfortunate that you have experienced such an episode. It
may perhaps help our astro community further if you could provide
further information with regards to the party involved. You may wish to
privately email at rem...@yahoo.com
Remus
"Al" <aoccB...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Remus,
>
> I'm sure that most people from Singapore are honest and trust
> worthy...particularly those of you who are amateur astronomers.
But...you
> have more than one rotten apple in your small group and they are
spoiling it
> for all of you. I know this to be a fact because one of them burned
me.
kw...@my-deja.com
Singaporean and somebody who has done countless of transactions with
Americans during the last 4-5 years in Astromart, I too was disturb
that you have deleted my friend's post because of suspected fraud from
Singapore. However, while trying to protect your fellow Americans from
being cheated, you have actually killed the next generation of
astronomy in Singapore.
Let me explain why we are upset about this. Many years back, astronomy
in Singapore remains a very small community. While the country has
moved into the first world status, the hobby of astronomy is unheard
of. Through work, dedication and the love for astronomy, these group of
people managed to save up and purchase very good scopes direct from US.
It is not cheap to buy scopes here in Singapore, the price here is 3-4
times that of US.
Today, we have Portaball (mine with great transaction with Pete Smitka
of Mag1), WY refractor, Takahashis, and all those celestrons and
Meades. Naturally with all these scopes which is accumulated by those
few dedicated individuals, the world of astronomy seems to open up and
reach more people in Singapore. The younger generations seems be more
interested now....not that the bright sky here helps, but through the
promotion and hard work of these people.
Astromart remain as one of the better options for these young people to
acquire accessories and stuff with very reasonable 2nd hand prices. But
just because of some bad apple (would appreciate if you show
proof..name and stuff) and classifying Singapore as fraud would
certainly discouraged the young people into astronomy since it is hard
for them to get astro stuff and cheaper prices. When Robert started
Astromart, he gives a new breathe of life to the astronomers here in
Singapore. I am eternally grateful to him when he started astromart
about 10 years back (or is it more?).
As for fraud, I believe it can happen everywhere. I am very sure
Americans have been burned by fellow Americans too...so are you going
to delete every American's post?? All I ask is to have a fair system in
filtering out the bad apples and do not classify all Singaporeans
as "fraud" just because there are bad apples (show proof if you have
them). If you want to rule out Indonesia I can understand that, because
they have been plagued by riots, gov. unstability during the recent
years. But Singapore is a developed and peaceful country...there are
many Americans here that make a better living here than in US itself.
Please do not discrimate us just because there are "bad apples" because
I am sure there are many more "bad apples" among the Americans dealings
too.
Anyway, Astromart is now your product and I will respect whatever stand
you take on it. I just want everyone to know that it is a wrong
perception that it is generally not safe to transact with Singaporeans
just because of what you think and said
Thanks
Vincent Kee
Al
<aar...@removeme-shore.net> wrote in message
news:SuV%5.1311$JG.1...@news.shore.net...
> : I'm sure that most people from Singapore are honest and trust
> : worthy...particularly those of you who are amateur astronomers.
But...you
> : have more than one rotten apple in your small group and they are
spoiling it
> : for all of you. I know this to be a fact because one of them burned me.
>
> Well I hope you plan on not buying from anyone in the USA either as we
> sure do have a hell of alot more bad guys than Singapore! I would hate
> to see an entire political/ethnic/social/etc. group stereotyped just
> because of one person.
> I think its clear. You judge the buyer based on their individual
characteristics,
> not the characteristics of others.
>
You've missed the point. Maybe you will never understand until you get
burned by one of these slick operators.
I'm sure there are plenty of con artists right here in the US, but you can
qualify the person with whom you are dealing by simply picking up the phone
and speaking with that person (I always do this). You are also protected
(to some degree) by mail fraud laws. This is not the case when dealing with
a person in Singapore.
Al
Herb York
> being cheated, you have actually killed the next generation of
> astronomy in Singapore
Err.... explain to me how I have stopped anyone in Singapore from buying a
scope on AstroMart.
There is obviously a group of amateur astronomers in your country that are
very honest people and could certainly provide any seller or buyer
references that the buyer/seller could check out. Where the problems arise
that I see is when someone a long distance away asks for money and then
doesn't produce the product or the product is not as advertised. If the guy
lives in the next city or 500 miles away it is pretty easy to rectify. If
the people live 10,000 miles apart it is different.
The areas of fraud that we have seen is money is sent and then no one can
get the product.
I'm not trying to say people in Singapore or Indonesia are bad people - I'm
simply saying we have had a larger than normal amount of problems from
sophisticated fraud schemes from these areas and buyers and seller need to
use due diligence.
Over the last 24 hours I have had a lot of emails from Singapore and most
have been very nice and show much concern on the part of the astro community
there. I have even had offers of people trying to find out who the bad guys
are. If you would like to set up a buyer / seller group of concerned
citizens that would be willing to be emailed by AstroMart buyers and sellers
we would be happy to post that email address on AstroMart for anyone to
contact if they have any concerns about the individual they want to do
business with. Will that work for you?
Herb
Anacortes Telescope
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
Kay Heem
Why don't you take up Remus' offer for help and email him privately
with your grievances?
We cannot promise you that we can nail the guy, but we hope that we can
solve this problem satisfactorily. After all, the person may not even
be from Singapore, but only using a Singapore address as a front.
I can tell you that there are quite a few 'good apples' here rallying
together, trying to get to the bottom of this.
Clear skies,
Kay Heem
Singapore
Lin
by perpetrators from Singapore.
The damage has been caused, but worse, the reputation of innocent amateur
astronomers from Singapore has been greatly affected by this episode.
Al's experience was from AstroMart, while Herb's experience was due to a
credit card scam on Anacortes.
>If I have offended the entire country of Singapore because there
>seems to be more inappropriate behavior there than other places
>then I truly apologize. While I'm at it I may as well apologize to
>Indonesia too because this is the country that has the greatest
>number of fraudulent activities with a company I know REAL well.
I firmly request that both Al and Herb provide further details on who and
how they have been scammed. The Singapore astronomical community would too
like to know of the "inappropriate behaviour" as Herb has stated.
This matter has to be clarified publicly, now that is it an issue on this
newsgroup.
At this moment, we at Singapore are unsure if this is due to the acts of one
individual or a few. We are certainly not tolerant of such fradulent
behaviour, and it would be a great help if a list of the perpetrators from
Singapore could be provided to us so that we will blacklist them in our
local astro communities too.
Criminal activities, especially in credit card scams, are rampant in any
country. Please provide us with the information so that we may be able to
act on it to try and clamp down on these errant individuals.
It is unfair that the rest of the Singapore astronomy community be subject
to such claims of fraud if it were due to the criminal acts of one or two
individuals.
Now we will know to provide direct contact numbers, so that buyers and
sellers can be assured that the deal is genuine.
Lyn
Singapore
Lin
Indeed distance is of concern to all.
A watchdog body such as you have proposed could just help to decrease
criminal activities and improve buyer/seller trust and understanding.
You have my support in this proposal.
Please let us know how we may assist you from this side of the planet.
Lyn
RAnder3127
of fraud commited on these type of boards
by people in the Far East, I'd be leery
of ANY ads from there. I used to frequent
the audio groups and the amount of
ripoffs coming from Far Eastern sellers
was astonishing. I would probably never
deal with someone out there unless I
knew them or had iron clad guarantees
as to performance.
It might sound intolerant,
but it's no different than insurance companies charging young males more
for auto insurance because they know
the risk is much greater than with
middle aged women. At some point, the
cost exceeds the benefit.
-Rich
Al
possible but the culprit remains untouchable.
This happened about 14 to 16 months ago. I bought a high end 35mm camera
from a Singaporean and actually received a camera in the mail. The camera,
however, was not mint as advertised (it was broken) and it was not even the
brand I purchased. What I got in return was worthless junk and a valuable
$250 lesson.
Al
"Kay Heem" <cha...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:91pe0v$7p0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
kw...@my-deja.com
> are. If you would like to set up a buyer / seller group of concerned
> citizens that would be willing to be emailed by AstroMart buyers and
sellers
> we would be happy to post that email address on AstroMart for anyone
to
> contact if they have any concerns about the individual they want to do
> business with. Will that work for you?
I support this proposal from you. We will discuss this matter among the
community here first and then let you know how best we can setup
this "safe guarding community". We want to assure every Americans that
it is safe to transact with the Singaporeans and we will take measures
to give them that trust.
Thanks
Vincent Kee
kw...@my-deja.com
I can't speak much for people in the Far east or the Audio group, but I
do know that the astro group of people in Singapore are pretty nice
people just like the astronomers in the US. Of course there are some
bad ones, but I am sure it is very few. Unless of course some people
who are not astronomers pose as astronomers from other countries or
even Singapore and try to rip you off.
Your concern is justified..if I am living in US, most probably I would
do the same. Hence our post is to find a fair solution with Herb so
that the Americans can be assured of a safe transaction while the
Singaporeans can have a chance to get astro stuff at reasonable prices.
This way, the young astronomers in Singapore would not be discouraged
into astronomy and the faith of world wide promotion of astronomy can
be maintained.
Thanks
Vincent
In article <20001220010328...@ng-xb1.aol.com>,
rem...@my-deja.com
We have a mailing list in egroups (SINGASTRO) that caters to the
astronomical community in Singapore. It was setup with the objective of
spreading the enthusiasm of astronomy in our country. If you like, we
can have you as part of the list and when it comes to a time that there
are buyers/sellers of question residing in Singapore, you can let us
know through it. This may not be the best solution, but at least, it
would help you and the interested party in Astromart to know more about
a given situation at hand.
Alternatively, you are welcome to post me anytime with regards to
related issues like the above.
Remus
SINGASTRO list moderator
> If you would like to set up a buyer / seller group of concerned
> citizens that would be willing to be emailed by AstroMart buyers and
sellers
> we would be happy to post that email address on AstroMart for anyone
to
> contact if they have any concerns about the individual they want to do
> business with. Will that work for you?
> Herb
> Anacortes Telescope
> www.BuyTelescopes.com
> www.AstroMart.com
> 360-588-9000
> 800-850-2001
>
>
kw...@my-deja.com
Sorry to hear your unfortunate incident. I do agree that if you are
dealing with audio or photography enthusiast in Singapore, you should
be careful. Mainly because these are popular interest, and you have all
kind of people with multi race here who are interested in these hobbies.
But for astronomy, the community is very small. Astronomers here are
pretty nice natured people, so chances of frauding is very slim, unless
of course, like what I mention earlier, people pose themselves as
Singaporeans and astronomers to try ripping you guys off.
Sorry to give you guys an impression that Singaporeans are bad
people...I can't speak for them, but at least for astronomy group, we
like to assure you it is still safe to transact with us.
ERIC K. CHEU
get burned from someone in the US, I can do something about it, while if
it is overseas, it's a tad bit more difficult (each countries' laws
are different). It is unfortunate that some people will take advantage
of you when there is little or no accountability.
rem...@my-deja.com wrote:
: Hi Al,
: It is most unfortunate that you have experienced such an episode. It
: may perhaps help our astro community further if you could provide
: further information with regards to the party involved. You may wish to
: privately email at rem...@yahoo.com
: http://www.deja.com/