Mining the IPDB
Bob E.
IPDB, and noticed a little motherlode of info in the "Recent
Changes" section...a series of data points that had been
entered for all Willams/Bally games from Getaway on, with
production quantities and "confirmed" in parentheses! I cut
and pasted into a quickie spreadsheet, and thought there were
some interesting things to be noticed. I added the "manufacurer"
name (either W or B, although we all know they were from the
same company by this time), and the release date as noted in
the IPDB. First off, when you look at the data sorted by release
date, you see (as has been mentioned elsewhere) that, for the most
part, they really did alternate Williams and Bally titles. No big
surprise there, but if you start sorting the data, out of the
240,388 games made, there were 121,201 Bally titles, or almost
exactly 50% (.5041 to be precise!). I'm not sure I would have
expected that...but there are 22 Bally titles to 21 Williams
titles (and Williams titles totaled 119,187 games), so maybe it
does "add up" (heh).
By Release Date, Oldest at top:
Title Mfg. Release Quan.
The Getaway: High Speed II W Feb-92 13259
The Addams Family B Mar-92 20270
Black Rose B Jul-92 3746
Doctor Who B Sep-92 7752
Fish Tales W Oct-92 13640
Creature from the Black Lagoon B Dec-92 7841
White Water W Jan-93 7008
Twilight Zone B Apr-93 15235
Bram Stoker's Dracula W Apr-93 6801
Indiana Jones W Aug-93 12716
Judge Dredd B Sep-93 6990
Star Trek: The Next Generation W Nov-93 11728
World Cup Soccer B Feb-94 8743
Demolition Man W Feb-94 7019
Popeye Saves the Earth B Feb-94 4217
The Flintstones W Jul-94 4779
Corvette B Aug-94 5001
Red & Ted's Road Show W Oct-94 6259
The Addams Family (Gold) B Oct-94 1000
The Shadow B Nov-94 4247
Theatre of Magic B Mar-95 6600
Dirty Harry W Mar-95 4248
No Fear: Dangerous Sports W May-95 4540
Indianapolis 500 B Jun-95 2249
Johnny Mnemonic W Aug-95 2756
WHO dunnit B Sep-95 2416
Jack*Bot W Oct-95 2428
Congo W Nov-95 2129
Attack from Mars B Dec-95 3450
Safe Cracker B Mar-96 1148
Ticket Tac Toe W Mar-96 123
Tales of the Arabian Nights W May-96 3128
Scared Stiff B Sep-96 4028
Junk Yard W Dec-96 3013
NBA Fastbreak B Mar-97 4414
Medieval Madness W Jun-97 4016
Cirqus Voltaire B Oct-97 2704
No Good Gofers W Dec-97 2711
The Champion Pub B Apr-98 1369
Monster Bash W Jul-98 3361
Cactus Canyon B Oct-98 903
Revenge From Mars B Jan-99 6878
Star Wars: Episode 1 W Jun-99 3525
Also, as you no doubt expect, you can see how the quantities
declined as time went on. For the years, here are the totals:
1992 66,508
1993 60,478
1994 41,256
1995 39,816
1996 11,440
1997 13,845
1998 5,633
1999 10,403
Except for the slight uptick in 1997, pretty grim...although
they did give it their best shot for P2K in 1999! Ah, if only...
Now, the most interesting data-sort for me was by quantity.
I would not have guessed that Fish Tales was the third-most
produced game of this list, even beating out Getaway and
Indiana Jones! There were more Fish Tales made than Theatre
of Magic and Road Show combined! I was amazed.
By Production Quantity:
Title Mfg. Release Quan.
The Addams Family B Mar-92 20270
Twilight Zone B Apr-93 15235
Fish Tales W Oct-92 13640
The Getaway: High Speed II W Feb-92 13259
Indiana Jones W Aug-93 12716
Star Trek: The Next Generation W Nov-93 11728
World Cup Soccer B Feb-94 8743
Creature from the Black Lagoon B Dec-92 7841
Doctor Who B Sep-92 7752
Demolition Man W Feb-94 7019
White Water W Jan-93 7008
Judge Dredd B Sep-93 6990
Revenge From Mars B Jan-99 6878
Bram Stoker's Dracula W Apr-93 6801
Theatre of Magic B Mar-95 6600
Red & Ted's Road Show W Oct-94 6259
Corvette B Aug-94 5001
The Flintstones W Jul-94 4779
No Fear: Dangerous Sports W May-95 4540
NBA Fastbreak B Mar-97 4414
Dirty Harry W Mar-95 4248
The Shadow B Nov-94 4247
Popeye Saves the Earth B Feb-94 4217
Scared Stiff B Sep-96 4028
Medieval Madness W Jun-97 4016
Black Rose B Jul-92 3746
Star Wars: Episode 1 W Jun-99 3525
Attack from Mars B Dec-95 3450
Monster Bash W Jul-98 3361
Tales of the Arabian Nights W May-96 3128
Junk Yard W Dec-96 3013
Johnny Mnemonic W Aug-95 2756
No Good Gofers W Dec-97 2711
Cirqus Voltaire B Oct-97 2704
Jack*Bot W Oct-95 2428
WHO dunnit B Sep-95 2416
Indianapolis 500 B Jun-95 2249
Congo W Nov-95 2129
The Champion Pub B Apr-98 1369
Safe Cracker B Mar-96 1148
The Addams Family (Gold) B Oct-94 1000
Cactus Canyon B Oct-98 903
Ticket Tac Toe W Mar-96 123
My last observation (maybe you will have others you would like
to share!) regards the validity of this "confirmed" data. I
am not really interested in knowing who the insider was that
provided this data (but they have my eternal thanks!), but I
think we can infer that it is the real thing by the fact that
they included "Ticket Tac Toe"...I don't think anyone that set
out to fake (or even extrapolate) a list like this would
include the title of such and obscure game with all the other
heavy hitters! Has anyone ever even seen one? I just have a
feeling that they had access to real data and saw the value in
sharing it with the IPDB, which just keeps getting better and
better! Thanks to all involved!
--Bob
=======================================================================
Bob Ellingson bo...@halted.com
Halted Specialties Co., Inc. http://www.halted.com
3500 Ryder St. (408) 732-1573
Santa Clara, Calif. 95051 USA (408) 732-6428 (FAX)
Wil
to be produced to make a profit?
Wil
ChrisWoodruff
Txl
> Thanks for the info..... On a side note - anyone know how many games
> need to be produced to make a profit?
>
> Wil
>
>
only one, if it sold for more than it cost, including R&D costs
cfh
where he thought those Williams production numbers came from.
"I have no idea where those would have come from. Without knowing
the exact numbers myself, I can absolutely guarantee you that the
numbers for Cactus Canyon, Revenge, and SW:EI are wrong (all too
low), so I would call the rest of them suspect too."
"Bob E." <bob...@halted.com> wrote in message news:<3ED442E0...@halted.com>...
Manic
the "exact numbers". So his anonymous remark
is also suspect. A lot of those numbers like the one's
for FT, etc... match the figures that have always
been in circulation.
I'd say IMO it's as accurate as any list I've
seen - despite the dueling anonymous sources.
"cfh" <c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:ace9175.03052...@posting.google.com...
Keith P. Johnson
keith
--
We don't pay these people to serve as advertising agents for them.
Therefore, I suggest you do NOT use or support...
mieze
around somewhere?
Manic schreef:
Manic
clearance so he can put his name out...
never knew being an ex-Wms employee
meant you couldn't comment on any
harmless subject. I guess the ancient
production numbers of a dead division
are as entitled to secrecy as the mummified
aliens at Roswell ;-)
I don't really care but if none of the naysayers
can produce any figures at all I guess the list
wins by default.
"Keith P. Johnson" <keith....@sternpinball.com> wrote in message
news:s95adv8nhpc55n8nj...@4ax.com...
Manic
it's a "trade secret" if they made 900 or 1000
CC's ;-)
"Wil" <con...@aaquick.com> wrote in message
news:3ED5334E...@aaquick.com...
> May be a non-disclosure clause that is still legally binding....You
> know, trade secrets and all that. Just because they closed their doors
> on pinball does not mean they want everything public domain....
>
> Wil
ChrisWoodruff
off the Williams pinball line to another company (although if they were you
would think it would have been done by now).
Has anyone just tried contacting Williams directly to see if they will release
the numbers?
Donnie Barnes
Which Mr. Anonymous? The one that submitted the IPDB numbers or the
one that refutes them?
--Donnie
--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com d...@donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Noldor
happened. Sales figures dramatically declined from that point and bottomed
in mid-1995. So what happened ? It cannot be blamed on video games or
operator incompetance because those things did not change in that time,
neither did anything significantly change with game designs.
The only thing I know of is the beginning of the rise of the internet
but that could not cause such a dramatic sales decline. Did Williams
significantly change something about how they did business or was there a
significant rise in NIB prices around that time?
__________________________________________________
Short cuts make long delays - Peregrin Took
"Bob E." <bob...@halted.com> wrote in message
news:3ED442E0...@halted.com...
Cliffy
--
Cliffy
CARGPB2
http://home.attbi.com/~crinear
mieze
that period... it could be a little related....
Noldor schreef:
cfh
They all signed papers saying they wouldn't. They are in a legally
binding agreement not to talk.
The fact that Keith and "mr.anonymous" agree is just more evidence
the numbers are wrong.
Mr.anonymous said this to me: "I *know* for fact that at least some
of these production numbers are *wrong*. How? Because I received
royalties on some of these games, and the numbers reported to the
IPD are too low!"
Now do you guys really thing Williams would OVER estimate sales
for royality payments to the employees? (Meaning WMS would pay
more in royalties than they had to.)
The production numbers are wrong. They are too low. Maybe not every
game's numbers are wrong. But the fact that at least some of them
are wrong, brings ALL the reported number into suspect.
---------------
From: Keith P. Johnson (keith....@sternpinball.com)
Subject: Re: Mining the IPDB - Williams Production Numbers
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
Date: 2003-05-28 13:00:43 PST
Fine. Then I'll go on record as agreeing with Mr. Anonymous.
keith
--
"Manic" <manicmu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<G56Ba.3384$Pb....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
flippy
Steve Kordek has all those numbers & carries them around
with him in a notebook. He will tell you the production number
for a specific game if you ask him. He has said this many
times at Chicago Expo.
"Bob E." <bob...@halted.com> wrote in message
news:3ED442E0...@halted.com...
Brett Gens
> no no you got a point there... PC computer gaming online soared skywards in
> that period... it could be a little related....
>
> Noldor schreef:
>
> > Judging from those figures it appears that in early 1994 something
> > happened. Sales figures dramatically declined from that point and bottomed
> > in mid-1995. So what happened ? It cannot be blamed on video games or
> > operator incompetance because those things did not change in that time,
> > neither did anything significantly change with game designs.
> > The only thing I know of is the beginning of the rise of the internet
> > but that could not cause such a dramatic sales decline. Did Williams
> > significantly change something about how they did business or was there a
> > significant rise in NIB prices around that time?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
I wonder if it's the old "Williams being their own best competition"?
If AFM, T2, STTNG, IJ, etc, etc...are still making money why buy a DH,
Corvette, etc?
Or you could argue that T2 and TAF set such high standards and Ops
were already being burned by commercial failures (by some most
accounts) like TZ, and IJ, Popeye etc...so after plunking down big
dollars for the Superpins which by and larger underwhelmed from a $$
coinbox standpoint they were already getting cautious about what
pieces to buy.
Meanwhile Aracade games like Daytona were the rage as the race for the
best 3G graphics was in full swing. Playstation was still a year and a
half off so we can't blame the home consoles in 1994.
Just a thought.
Brian Saunders
factory production figures and you really want to know a more exact
number of how many of WHATEVER game was produced, be it Williams or
Bally or Gottlieb or whatever you've got, you've got to register the
existing machines and their serial numbers and send them in to a bona
fide person or group in charge of tracking them so we'll ALL know
about it. There's always going to be a low and high number for each
machine in that survey, and if it's more than what's currently posted,
then the powers to be will fix it.
Currently I'm on a mission to figure out why the Bally EM machines
serial numbers aren't lining up with the posted production numbers in
our guide books.(see thread labeled "Bally EM serial # mystery") So
far, in limited responses, I've already gotten four cases of "ringer"
machines that don't fit the numbers. My intent is to find out WHY, not
to just be a pessimist and see if I can prove somebody's numbers
wrong. They may be right and there could be other factors going on
that messed up some serial number sequences at Bally, like re-use of
leftover cabinets from a short run or something.
My response to one other post kind of got lost in the tons of
wordings on each thread, so let me repeat the condensed version of it.
What would be nice is if we can get some of the main pinball people
together, like at the Pinball Expo this fall, and see if we can get
something going again on the Serial Number Database from the old IPD
site. That would simply be the easiest way to track numbers. With a
little overhauling of that site, we can make it continue on and be a
huge benefit to the whole hobby. You all know what the newer version
of the IPDB has done for us!!!
Brian Saunders Pinballs of the Past Lerna, IL.
Steve Trischetta
in control of the rest of Williams' pinball assets, including the
intellectual property. Let's see what he does with them...
"ChrisWoodruff" <cde...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:CFN377696...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
Ken S
Saunders) wrote:
Don't you just love bottom posting on long posts?
KS
cfh
the production numbers listed below. And of course, this just
interjects more doubt into their accuracy.
I do believe the numbers reported below came from Gene Cunningham.
Apparently when he was attempting to buy Williams, he asked for
the numbers to help in his analysis of what parts to make and sell.
And those are the numbers Williams "threw together" and gave him. So
basically they are "rough" numbers, not really accurate, but something
to "get Gene off their backs" and to give Gene some idea of how
many of a particular game is out there. I mean if you're looking to
buy a company, and they can't even give you accurate production
numbers, what do you do? Well the lawyers "guestimate" them and say,
"yea those are the right numbers!" Otherwise you look pretty stupid
saying, "duh, I'm not sure how many we made!" Apparently the estimation
is what happened, since things just aren't jiving with *verified*
royalty production numbers. Of course the lawyers could have also said,
"we don't want the REAL production numbers out there, let's report
some close but not accurate ones", and did it on purpose.
But the REAL production numbers are still a secret. The best way
to get them would be to talk to the design team for each game, and
see what royalty number was reported to them by Williams for the
game they were getting paid royalities. But I don't think those
guyw will tell ya...
mieze <mi...@casadepauw.nl> wrote in message news:<3ED5179D...@casadepauw.nl>...
mieze
surface.....
cfh schreef:
Wolf
> I do believe the numbers reported below came from Gene Cunningham.
Please note that it appears I was provided more than one document, and
at least one of the documents looks to predate Gene Cunningham by
several years, appearing to be from around 1988.
> Apparently when he was attempting to buy Williams, he asked for
> the numbers to help in his analysis of what parts to make and sell.
One document shows Bally numbers back as far as 1960, which I doubt
Gene would care about for producing parts.
> Apparently the estimation
> is what happened, since things just aren't jiving with *verified*
> royalty production numbers.
As I wrote to you in private email, I'd be interested to see these
verified numbers from anyone that has them. To date, no-one has sent
me any conflicting data.
> But the REAL production numbers are still a secret. The best way
> to get them would be to talk to the design team for each game, and
> see what royalty number was reported to them by Williams for the
> game they were getting paid royalities. But I don't think those
> guys will tell ya...
Maybe they have...
FUD
Please also note that I'm not guaranteeing against *any* odds that
these are the absolute perfect numbers. I just believe them to be
more correct than previous numbers I've seen, especially in the face
of statements like "we CAN'T EVER know the REAL numbers according to
my mystery sources".