Gluing pin feet to the floor?
Tim Witort
This has got to be the smarmiest trick I've seen
an operator pull. I went to play a CFTBL that
showed up at a little yogurt shop. I was having
a really hard time getting any control of the ball
with nudging. It seemed like the machine weighed
600 pounds! Now I know this machine is lighter
than my TZ, so what's the problem? After the
game was over I tried to move the machine around
a little bit and couldn't! Upon closer inspection,
it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
slap save or a nudge of any kind, then I've been
ripped off. Being able to nudge a game is almost
as important as having working flippers IMHO.
Now if it were *very* obvious that this machine
COULD NOT BE MOVED, that is one thing, but when
you can see absolutely no evidence that the game
is not just sitting on the floor, a deception is
at hand.
The fact that the operator also disabled the free
ride time on the game didn't help either. Drain
ball one in 3 seconds? Too bad.... here's ball two.
-- TRW
--
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tim Witort || He is not silent. He is not |
| trwATmedicalertDOTorg || whispering. We are not quiet |
| || we are not listening. |
| Pin: TZ, only one :^( || - Out of the Grey |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
J. Weaver Jr.
Tim Witort wrote:
>
> This has got to be the smarmiest trick I've seen
> an operator pull. I went to play a CFTBL that
> showed up at a little yogurt shop. I was having
> a really hard time getting any control of the ball
> with nudging. It seemed like the machine weighed
> 600 pounds! Now I know this machine is lighter
> than my TZ, so what's the problem? After the
> game was over I tried to move the machine around
> a little bit and couldn't! Upon closer inspection,
> it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
> or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
Well, that operator's certainly going to be "stuck" with that particular
machine for a while, yes?
Sorry 'bout that. <grin> Back on topic, the Holiday Inn in Monroe, MI
has a similar approach for their three games: they've removed the legs,
and just plunked the legless bodies on a solid platform of the proper
height.
If the machines were maintained at all, it'd tend to piss you off; as
such, it's just one of many reasons not to spend a second quarter...
-JW
JPutnam435
>it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
>or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
>
>a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
>on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
>doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
>slap save or a nudge of any kind, then I've been
>ripped off. Being able to nudge a
Ok.. Hmmm... Interesting point you bring up here.. I guess it all
depends if the operator personally owns the machine and how he feels about
it... A lot of leagues make a point of not allowing bangbacks and
deathsaves(unless naturally occuring) out of respect to the game
owner/operaters. I know I definately would not want anybody doing a
bangback on any of my personal machines (but I guess I am a little anal
retentive about my pins).
On the other hand, the fact that the operator has disabled the ball
save feature directly points to the fact that he only wants to rake in the
money! What I really hate is operators who disable ball save, set the
machine on $.50 for a 3 ball game, and then jack up the rear leg levelers.
You might has well just throw your money away then play pins that are set
up like that! I also have noticed that a lot of pins set up like this also
are really poorly maintained as well, as if the operator is thinking, "I am
just going to wring every last quarter I can get from this thing, then I'll
throw it away.."
I think it is the abundance of operators with this attitude that are
driving people away from playing pinball. Imagine if you had never played
a pinball machine before, and you go over, plunk in 50 cents, lose your
money in like 20 seconds, and half the features of the game didn't work to
boot! Would you want to play another machine? I've never operated
machines before, so maybe I'm being unfair to these operators, but don't
you think if you kept your machines running well, and offered players a
decent, fair game, that they would spend more money on your machines then
if you just try to hurry up and take people's money? I think the amount of
return business you recieve would be enough to cover the added maintnance
costs.. Just my oPINion, though...
Brad Stuart
Tim Witort (trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org) wrote:
[...]
: it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
: or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
: For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
: a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
: on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
: doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
: slap save or a nudge of any kind, then I've been
: ripped off. Being able to nudge a game is almost
: as important as having working flippers IMHO.
: Now if it were *very* obvious that this machine
: COULD NOT BE MOVED, that is one thing, but when
: you can see absolutely no evidence that the game
: is not just sitting on the floor, a deception is
: at hand.
Sorry, I cannot agree. You are not entitled to slide the machine all
over the (presumably) slippery floor. Bangbacks and death saves are
also not in the realm of legitimate techniques. It is perfectly
possible to nudge a machine adequately without sliding it, like when
it is on a carpeted floor. It's just a little harder, until the leg
joints start to give out.
Of course, I am quite happy to find a machine with little or no tilt,
and sitting on a nice smooth tile floor. I'll slide it all around the
room. I just don't delude myself into thinking the high scores have
any meaning, while I play until my arms are tired.
I've also seen people "lubricate" the feet with their drinks, making
it even easier to slide. It's not much fun to be the next guy (me),
and find you get to play on a gooey floor, with dried Coke under the
machine.
--
| Brad Stuart br...@cfar.umd.edu
| Center for Automation Research
| University of Maryland, College Park
Damon
In article <341035...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>, Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
|> a little bit and couldn't! Upon closer inspection,
|> or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
Are you sure that the machine isn;t just stuck with wax or something. I
have seen machines that have been waxed to the floor.
Take another look and see...
Damon
Tim Witort
Brad Stuart wrote:
>
> Tim Witort (trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> : it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
> : or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
>
> : For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
> : a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
> : on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
> : doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
> : slap save or a nudge of any kind, then I've been
> : ripped off. Being able to nudge a game is almost
> : as important as having working flippers IMHO.
> : Now if it were *very* obvious that this machine
> : COULD NOT BE MOVED, that is one thing, but when
> : you can see absolutely no evidence that the game
> : is not just sitting on the floor, a deception is
> : at hand.
>
> Sorry, I cannot agree. You are not entitled to slide the machine all
> over the (presumably) slippery floor. Bangbacks and death saves are
> also not in the realm of legitimate techniques.
Are you kidding!? I guess champions like Rick Stetta and
others who use these techniques are illegitimate. Just
because *your* repetoire of techniques does not include
sophisticated nudging, don't throw the baby out with the
bathwater. This myopic comment greatly weakens your
credibility.
> It is perfectly
> possible to nudge a machine adequately without sliding it, like when
> it is on a carpeted floor. It's just a little harder, until the leg
> joints start to give out.
Uhmmm... I never said I need to slide the machine. But
even in fairly tame nudging, the feet will shift. And if
they are not allowed to shift and the legs are reasonably
tight, the game becomes practically un-nudgeable. Even
on a carpeted floor, the feet move.
> Of course, I am quite happy to find a machine with little or no tilt,
> and sitting on a nice smooth tile floor. I'll slide it all around the
> room. I just don't delude myself into thinking the high scores have
> any meaning, while I play until my arms are tired.
Not sure where you're going here, but it seems you
are equating not wanting the machine's feet glued
down to "wanting to slide the game all over the floor."
Not so, Brad.
> I've also seen people "lubricate" the feet with their drinks, making
> it even easier to slide. It's not much fun to be the next guy (me),
> and find you get to play on a gooey floor, with dried Coke under the
> machine.
I'm with you on this one. Doctoring the machine to
increase your scores is a no-no. But so is doctoring
a machine to *decrease* scores.
Tim Witort
JPutnam435 wrote:
>
> >it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
> >or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
> >
> >For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
> >a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
> >on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
> >doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
> >slap save or a nudge of any kind, then I've been
> >ripped off. Being able to nudge a
>
> depends if the operator personally owns the machine and how he feels about
> it... A lot of leagues make a point of not allowing bangbacks and
> deathsaves(unless naturally occuring) out of respect to the game
> owner/operaters. I know I definately would not want anybody doing a
> bangback on any of my personal machines (but I guess I am a little anal
> retentive about my pins).
Have you ever seen a bangback done correctly? I
recently mastered *cough!* the technique, and it
inflicts no abuse at all on a machine. It's no
more traumatic than your average nudge and will
almost *never* yield a tilt warning since it invloves
a quick rap to the front edge of the cabinet. Now
if someone thinks a bangback is body checking the
pin into the wall in hopes of getting the ball back
into play, then they will not only be rewarded with
a sneer from any pin-loving person, but they will
also get a tilt or even a slam tilt from the machine!
Tim Witort
Damon wrote:
>
> In article <341035...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>, Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
> |> a little bit and couldn't! Upon closer inspection,
> |> it appeared that the operator had actually epoxied
> |> or super glued the feet to the tile floor!
>
> Are you sure that the machine isn;t just stuck with wax or something. I
> have seen machines that have been waxed to the floor.
> Take another look and see...
>
> Damon
I'll give it another look, but I *really* tried
to move the machine after my game was done... and
I'm used to moving a TZ! (300+ pounds)
JoSH Lehan
On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:37:00 -0700, Tim Witort
<trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> wrote:
>For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
>a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
>on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
>doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
Hmm, most of the time when I shake a machine, I just
move the machine's body, not the legs. The legs
don't move unless I'm *really* pissed and shove
the machine (which happens a lot on CFTBL =)),
usually tilting.
You should still be able to do little nudges on
the machine, even though its legs are glued to
the floor. There's enough "wobble" in the legs
to let you shove it a little bit.
I remember watching people play Comet. Now
THERE'S a game that needs to be shaken. I've seen
games start in one place, and then end about
four feet over...! A mighty shove is needed to
get the ball to roll back in, when it goes down the
gaping left drain. I remember people leaving a
*lot* of space around that game when it was being
played...
I think it's silly to glue the legs to the floor!
Not only is it almost impossible to move the
game now, but people shaking the machine will
strain the bolts that hold the legs to the machine's
cabinet. Eventually, they will loosen, because
they aren't designed to take that stress (the legs
are supposed to be able to slide around, if the
player shoves it very hard!). I've seen games
with *very* wobbly legs, I wouldn't want a leg
to slip off while I'm playing! That would hurt
me... and the machine :-)
>The fact that the operator also disabled the free
>ride time on the game didn't help either. Drain
>ball one in 3 seconds? Too bad.... here's ball two.
CFTBL is a bitch of a game, free ride or no free
ride. Play something else that is more fair, if you
can find it.
JoSH
______
\Josh/ Lehan
\ / mailto:kre...@fix.net
\/ http://www.fix.net/~jlehan/
Tim Witort
JoSH Lehan wrote:
>
> On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:37:00 -0700, Tim Witort
> <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> wrote:
>
> >For me, that is tantamount to purposely disabling
> >a vital feature of a machine just to cut down
> >on ball times. If I have absolutely NO CHANCE of
> >doing a bangback or deathsave or even a decent
>
> Hmm, most of the time when I shake a machine, I just
> move the machine's body, not the legs. The legs
> don't move unless I'm *really* pissed and shove
> the machine (which happens a lot on CFTBL =)),
> usually tilting.
>
> You should still be able to do little nudges on
> the machine, even though its legs are glued to
> the floor. There's enough "wobble" in the legs
> to let you shove it a little bit.
You would think so, but they must have really
torqued down the leg bolts in combination with
securing the feet because it was next to impossible
to get any movement at all. I am also used to
being able at least ATTEMPT a slap save or a
slide save for a ball going SDTM, but those
require at least a slight movement of the feet
to save a truly SDTM ball.
I would love to... unfortunately, this seems to be
a one-operator town and all of their locations have
machines that are miserably unmaintained, broken,
rigged, or out of order. If their aim is to kill
pinball in this area, they're well on their way.
Orin A. Day
In article <34109C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>,
Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> wrote:
>Brad Stuart wrote:
>> Sorry, I cannot agree. You are not entitled to slide the machine all
>> over the (presumably) slippery floor. Bangbacks and death saves are
>> also not in the realm of legitimate techniques.
>Are you kidding!? I guess champions like Rick Stetta and
>others who use these techniques are illegitimate. Just
>because *your* repetoire of techniques does not include
>sophisticated nudging, don't throw the baby out with the
>bathwater. This myopic comment greatly weakens your
>credibility.
IMO Brad's comment is not myopic because (if I recall correctly) bangbacks
and death saves are illegal in many major pinball tournaments and in some
leagues as well. If a technique banned from use in competition isn't an
illegitimate, then I don't know what would be.
Speaking personally, sophisticated nudging is one thing a blow to
the lockdown bar hard enough to break the welds is another. Yes,
I have seen this happen and it does not make the operator happy.
>Uhmmm... I never said I need to slide the machine. But
>even in fairly tame nudging, the feet will shift. And if
>they are not allowed to shift and the legs are reasonably
>tight, the game becomes practically un-nudgeable. Even
>on a carpeted floor, the feet move.
And when players move games several inches or more it often results
in the game losing its left/right levelling - in a tournament situation
this almost always results in complaints from subsequent players on that
machine.
On slick floors I've seen people shove games into walls both backwards
and sideways, damaging both games and walls. I can certainly see why
an operator in a rough location might consider securing the games in
some way, not that I would encourage or discourage it.
>I'm with you on this one. Doctoring the machine to
>increase your scores is a no-no. But so is doctoring
>a machine to *decrease* scores.
The operator has every right to set up his machines however he likes,
be it to add/remove posts, change software settings/pricing, or whatever.
You in turn have every right to complain to the operator about his setup
and to take your patronage elsewhere if you're not satisfied. As to
the increasing/decreasing of scores, well, it would seem to me that
everybody playing the game in question is playing under the same conditions
(not to mention autopercentaging).
OD
--
--- Orin Day ------------- BELIEVE THE LIE ------------- lob...@tezcat.com ---
For Duke Basketball news via email, write to dukehoop-l...@tezcat.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Squid Boy...Wait a Minute....I hafta convert Display.hex to Prom.hex first!
Alan Whittle
Orin A. Day <lob...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote in article
<5v1j6h$m...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>...
>
> In article <34109C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>,
> Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> wrote:
>
> >Brad Stuart wrote:
>
> >> Sorry, I cannot agree. You are not entitled to slide the machine all
> >> over the (presumably) slippery floor. Bangbacks and death saves are
> >> also not in the realm of legitimate techniques.
>
> >Are you kidding!? I guess champions like Rick Stetta and
> >others who use these techniques are illegitimate. Just
> >because *your* repetoire of techniques does not include
> >sophisticated nudging, don't throw the baby out with the
> >bathwater. This myopic comment greatly weakens your
> >credibility.
>
> IMO Brad's comment is not myopic because (if I recall correctly)
bangbacks
> and death saves are illegal in many major pinball tournaments and in some
> leagues as well. If a technique banned from use in competition isn't an
> illegitimate, then I don't know what would be.
>
> Speaking personally, sophisticated nudging is one thing a blow to
> the lockdown bar hard enough to break the welds is another. Yes,
> I have seen this happen and it does not make the operator happy.
Orin is right on here. I don't like repairing damage done by hacks who saw
one guy pound on the machine, so they pound on the machine. Alot.
Treat a pinball machine as an expensive piece of equipment. Because it is.
Our league does not allow bangbacks and death saves. And Rick, out of
courtesey, does not bang my machines.
> And when players move games several inches or more it often results
> in the game losing its left/right levelling - in a tournament situation
> this almost always results in complaints from subsequent players on that
> machine.
>
> On slick floors I've seen people shove games into walls both backwards
> and sideways, damaging both games and walls. I can certainly see why
> an operator in a rough location might consider securing the games in
> some way, not that I would encourage or discourage it.
Especially on bad concrete floors. I've had games that moving 1 INCH in a
given direction makes the game horribly off level. Now who complains and
molests my game because "the bastard operator does'nt care enough to even
level the machine"?
> The operator has every right to set up his machines however he likes,
> be it to add/remove posts, change software settings/pricing, or whatever.
> You in turn have every right to complain to the operator about his setup
> and to take your patronage elsewhere if you're not satisfied. As to
> the increasing/decreasing of scores, well, it would seem to me that
> everybody playing the game in question is playing under the same
conditions
> (not to mention autopercentaging).
Yep.
And if you like my settings better than my competetion then I collect the
quarters.
Bit of incentive, eh?
/Alan
Michelle Bottorff
Orin A. Day <lob...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
> On slick floors I've seen people shove games into walls both backwards
> and sideways, damaging both games and walls. I can certainly see why
> an operator in a rough location might consider securing the games in
> some way, not that I would encourage or discourage it.
A more sensitive tilt and fewer warnings would seem to be a more logical
way to handle it, though.
Orin A. Day
In article <1997090907...@tsc-p15.pconline.com>,
Do you really think that somebody shoving the game into a wall would
care if they tilt or not? (This also assumes that they are actually
playing the game.)
Tim Witort
As would I. But I think if you saw how harmless my bangbacks are,
you wouldn't mind my doing them on your games. Hey, I love my TZ
and treat it very kindly. I think any action done to a game should
be evaluated on its own. If player A tries a bangback by sliding the
machine into the wall while kneeing the coin box, I'd agree that
that is a totally illegitimate treatment. But if player B skillfully
places a well timed and harmless nudge to get the ball back into play,
I'd applaud him not say, "That's illegitimate, you hack." If we
declare any technique taboo because some low-life may misuse the
technique and damage or abuse a machine, then there is nothing sacred.
We can't use any techniques at all. We can't nudge the machine in
any way because someone may see that we can control the ball and they
might slide and bang the machine around to get the same result. We
can't even use the flippers really, because someone might want to pound
them with his fists instead of pressing them with his fingers.
Come on, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water because
there are thugs out there who don't care how they treat a pin.
Tim Witort
Orin A. Day wrote:
>
> In article <34109C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>,
> Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> wrote:
>
> >Brad Stuart wrote:
>
> >> Sorry, I cannot agree. You are not entitled to slide the machine all
> >> over the (presumably) slippery floor. Bangbacks and death saves are
> >> also not in the realm of legitimate techniques.
>
> >Are you kidding!? I guess champions like Rick Stetta and
> >others who use these techniques are illegitimate. Just
> >because *your* repetoire of techniques does not include
> >sophisticated nudging, don't throw the baby out with the
> >bathwater. This myopic comment greatly weakens your
> >credibility.
>
> IMO Brad's comment is not myopic because (if I recall correctly) bangbacks
> and death saves are illegal in many major pinball tournaments and in some
> leagues as well. If a technique banned from use in competition isn't an
> illegitimate, then I don't know what would be.
I think the operative word there is "many." I've seen reports
on tournaments indicating that "so and so successfully did bangbacks",
but I cannot recall ever seeing a tournament rules list or anything
that indicated bangbacks were not permissible. I'm sure there are
tournaments where it is prohibited, I was just trying to point out
that universally calling bangbacks and deathsaves "illegitimate"
is an inacurate broad generalization.
> Speaking personally, sophisticated nudging is one thing a blow to
> the lockdown bar hard enough to break the welds is another. Yes,
> I have seen this happen and it does not make the operator happy.
I agree. But a *properly* performed bangback is no more abusive
to the machine than other so called "legitimate" nudging. In fact,
when I do bangbacks, I don't even hit the lockdown bar - I hit the
cabinet just below the bar with the fleshy pinky-side of my fist.
You would cause more stress to the machine if you knocked on the
cabinet as if you were knocking on a door.
Granted, if you have a bunch of people playing who just pound on
the machine, then they deserve all the chastisement they get, but
I feel it is unfair to scorn a particular VERY USEFUL technique
because other people, when attempting to do something similar,
abuse a machine. Sort of like calling radiation treatment of cancer
illegitimate because some idiot thought using a microwave oven
would work just as well.
> >Uhmmm... I never said I need to slide the machine. But
> >even in fairly tame nudging, the feet will shift. And if
> >they are not allowed to shift and the legs are reasonably
> >tight, the game becomes practically un-nudgeable. Even
> >on a carpeted floor, the feet move.
>
> And when players move games several inches or more it often results
> in the game losing its left/right levelling - in a tournament situation
> this almost always results in complaints from subsequent players on that
> machine.
We're off on a tangent here. I can assure you, this operator did not
glue this machine down to maintain its level.
> On slick floors I've seen people shove games into walls both backwards
> and sideways, damaging both games and walls. I can certainly see why
> an operator in a rough location might consider securing the games in
> some way, not that I would encourage or discourage it.
Agreed. But this is no "rough location." This is a nice little
yogurt shop in a sleepy little town of 50K. And considering the
general condition and total lack of maintenance of this operator's
machines in other locations (i.e. very grimy playfields, posts
almost falling out of the playfield, major game elements inoperative),
I would say their lack of attention to their games is a far
greater abuse than just about anything a player could dish out.
> >I'm with you on this one. Doctoring the machine to
> >increase your scores is a no-no. But so is doctoring
> >a machine to *decrease* scores.
>
> The operator has every right to set up his machines however he likes,
> be it to add/remove posts, change software settings/pricing, or whatever.
> You in turn have every right to complain to the operator about his setup
> and to take your patronage elsewhere if you're not satisfied. As to
> the increasing/decreasing of scores, well, it would seem to me that
> everybody playing the game in question is playing under the same conditions
> (not to mention autopercentaging).
Do you really believe this? Do you think the operator "has every right
to set
up his machines however he likes, be it to add/remove posts, change
software
settings/pricing, or whatever"? So you wouldn't feel cheated if a game
were
tuned such that no matter how you launch the ball, it is delivered to
the
left outlane so that you have no chance of playing? Yeah, that is a
ridiculous
extreme, but if an operator can set the machine up however he likes,
then
your only response can be, "Wow, that machine is set up hard. Not wrong
or
bad, mind you, but hard." And you can tell the operator so and not play
the game. I, on the other hand, don't think the operator has carte
blanche
on setting up the machine. At some point, a line is crossed and it
becomes
a deception because something totally outside the realm of normal
pinball
setup has been used to reduce play time. Sure, it may backfire on the
operator and the machine may make less than it would if the smarmy setup
weren't used, but, in the mean time, unsuspecting players have been
duped
into putting their hard-earned money into a rigged game. Is this good
for pinball? Certainly not.
Clive Mitchell
In article <5v1j6h$m...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, "Orin A. Day"
<lob...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> writes
>Speaking personally, sophisticated nudging is one thing a blow to
>the lockdown bar hard enough to break the welds is another. Yes,
>I have seen this happen and it does not make the operator happy.
No problem, simply add a retractable buffer along the front of the
machine, with barbed spikes inside. That should stop bangbacks. :)
I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
--
Clive Mitchell
Brad Stuart
Tim Witort (trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org) wrote:
: As would I. But I think if you saw how harmless my bangbacks are,
: you wouldn't mind my doing them on your games. Hey, I love my TZ
: and treat it very kindly. I think any action done to a game should
: be evaluated on its own. If player A tries a bangback by sliding the
: machine into the wall while kneeing the coin box, I'd agree that
: that is a totally illegitimate treatment. But if player B skillfully
: places a well timed and harmless nudge to get the ball back into play,
: I'd applaud him not say, "That's illegitimate, you hack." If we
: declare any technique taboo because some low-life may misuse the
: technique and damage or abuse a machine, then there is nothing sacred.
: We can't use any techniques at all. We can't nudge the machine in
: any way because someone may see that we can control the ball and they
: might slide and bang the machine around to get the same result. We
: can't even use the flippers really, because someone might want to pound
: them with his fists instead of pressing them with his fingers.
I really can't agree with this sort of "slippery slope" argument.
Death saves and bangbacks are not about "controlling the ball."
They are "tricks" used to return a dead ball into play. I can't
believe we're actually arguing about this.
I'm not passing any sort of judgement you for doing this. Some
places, it will get you kicked out of the arcade. Other places, there
is no attendant. Go ahead and do them whenever/wherever you like, I
don't care. But complaining that the game design or the operator
settings is preventing you from doing it is just too much. Instead, you
should be happy/satisfied to get away with it when you can.
Finally, if you don't like a game's design, setup, or maintenance,
DON'T PLAY IT.
Brad
Tim Witort
Brad Stuart wrote:
>
> Tim Witort (trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org) wrote:
> : If we
> : declare any technique taboo because some low-life may misuse the
> : technique and damage or abuse a machine, then there is nothing sacred.
> : We can't use any techniques at all. We can't nudge the machine in
> : any way because someone may see that we can control the ball and they
> : might slide and bang the machine around to get the same result. We
> : can't even use the flippers really, because someone might want to pound
> : them with his fists instead of pressing them with his fingers.
>
> I really can't agree with this sort of "slippery slope" argument.
> Death saves and bangbacks are not about "controlling the ball."
> They are "tricks" used to return a dead ball into play. I can't
> believe we're actually arguing about this.
Neither can I. It's pure semantics. Define what you will
as a "trick" and what you will as a "dead ball" and you have
your strawman. Interesting though, that many machines accomodate
and even *reward* the player for getting a "dead ball" back
into play. I know that TZ does this. Of course other games
don't - as soon as the outlane or outhole switch is triggered,
the flippers go dead. So even the manufacturers can't agree
if these techniques are kosher.
oh well,
vquon
Hey! How about gluing the pin to the floor so that no "scumbag" can walk in
with some pals and pick up the machine and walk away.
(Excuse the multiple "and")
Michelle Bottorff
Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
> I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
> prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
> Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
To the best of my knowledge, it was a common factory feature late
70s/early 80s. I've seen one on every pin from that age.
I believe that the player slam is one reason for skill shots (the early
ones, where you actually needed *skill*); autoplungers, especially on
machines that don't have multiball refeeds; and ToM-style ball being
shot into the inlane.
Michelle Bottorff
Orin A. Day <lob...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
> >A more sensitive tilt and fewer warnings would seem to be a more logical
> >way to handle it, though.
>
> Do you really think that somebody shoving the game into a wall would
> care if they tilt or not? (This also assumes that they are actually
> playing the game.)
Depends. Once they've tilted it, probably not. But having the game
attached to the floor isn't going to prevent them from shoving it,
either. And while it may be entertaining watching various laws of
physics propelling the player backward when he vents his frustration on
a less-mobile and fairly heavy object, it doesn't mean the game takes
less wear.
In my opinion, about 1/2" is all the machine ever needs to be moved--
moving the body of the cabient, but not the legs. Anything more than
that is substituting force for skill, and I have yet to see anyone who
plays better for shaking the machine hard.
Jef Lepine
Michelle Bottorff (bott...@pconline.com) wrote:
: Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
: > I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
: > prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
: > Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
: To the best of my knowledge, it was a common factory feature late
: 70s/early 80s. I've seen one on every pin from that age.
Spikes?!? Geez! That's pretty rough, and I thought the 80's were tame :)
: I believe that the player slam is one reason for skill shots (the early
: ones, where you actually needed *skill*); autoplungers, especially on
: machines that don't have multiball refeeds; and ToM-style ball being
: shot into the inlane.
I'm not a big fan of the autoplunger/ToM type skillshot. I guess I like
having to learn the new skillshot instead of just moving the flashing lite
or hittting the big box. :)
-=Jef Lepine=- **NEW URL**
Maintainer of the CT/MA/NH/RI Area Pin-dex;
A list of pinball machines in this area.
http://www.jlepine.tiac.net/pin.htm
David Gersic
In <34157C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>, Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>We're off on a tangent here. I can assure you, this operator did not
>glue this machine down to maintain its level.
What I'm trying to figure out is how, if this machine is attached to the
floor, the operator is ever going to get it out of there.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| Stick \'stik\ n. 1: A boomerang that doesn't work. |
| |
|I'm tired of receiving crap in my mailbox, so the E-mail address has been|
|munged to foil the junkmail bots. Humans will figure it out on their own.|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Gersic
In <rbrryDAt...@emanator.demon.co.uk>, Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> writes:
>
>In article <5v1j6h$m...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, "Orin A. Day"
><lob...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> writes
>>Speaking personally, sophisticated nudging is one thing a blow to
>>the lockdown bar hard enough to break the welds is another. Yes,
>>I have seen this happen and it does not make the operator happy.
>
>No problem, simply add a retractable buffer along the front of the
>machine, with barbed spikes inside. That should stop bangbacks. :)
Hmm. Similar to the things on TOTAN maybe?
>I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
>prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
>Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
My Farfalla came stock with one of these (red plastic knob, too), but I had
to replace it with a generic one because the rod was bent.
Wei-Hwa Huang
bott...@pconline.com (Michelle Bottorff) writes:
>Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
>> prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
>> Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
>To the best of my knowledge, it was a common factory feature late
>70s/early 80s. I've seen one on every pin from that age.
>I believe that the player slam is one reason for skill shots (the early
>ones, where you actually needed *skill*); autoplungers, especially on
>machines that don't have multiball refeeds; and ToM-style ball being
>shot into the inlane.
OTOH, in rare cases, slamming the plunger is the only way to get the
balls into play, especially if the game is broken in some fashion....
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Member of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Clubs Spades Diamonds Rubber Band
Keith Johnson
Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>your strawman. Interesting though, that many machines accomodate
>and even *reward* the player for getting a "dead ball" back
>into play. I know that TZ does this. Of course other games
I have no idea what you mean by saying TZ rewards you for getting the
ball back in play. There's no acknowledgement whatsoever. What I would
assume you mean by a reward you mean more along the lines of R&B, JP,
LAH, which actually say things like "Death Save 10,000,000" or
something. Plus I just really like the animation on "Good Boy Sherman."
:)
>don't - as soon as the outlane or outhole switch is triggered,
>the flippers go dead. So even the manufacturers can't agree
>if these techniques are kosher.
I've never seen flippers die on outlane activation, care to list any
examples? And I don't care how hard you hit the machine, you are not
getting a ball back from an outhole. Flippers may as well go ahead and
die there.
keith
--
Keith P. Johnson, keeper of rec.games.pinball DynaFAQ
Insults are random and for amusement only.
Your mother's shoes are so old, when she steps on gum, she knows the flavor.
Wei-Hwa Huang
Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>Granted, if you have a bunch of people playing who just pound on
>the machine, then they deserve all the chastisement they get, but
>I feel it is unfair to scorn a particular VERY USEFUL technique
>because other people, when attempting to do something similar,
>abuse a machine.
I feel it is unfair to make pinball games difficult for
novices just because there are experienced players out there
who "want a challenge" and play all day on a dollar. The
question is, is there a surefire way to fix this problem?
I think that this situation is similar. What method is going
to stop malicious or emotional people from banging on the machine
while still being "fair" to the other people? I don't see any.
>Do you really believe this? Do you think the operator "has every right
>to set
>up his machines however he likes, be it to add/remove posts, change
>software
>settings/pricing, or whatever"? So you wouldn't feel cheated if a game
>were
>tuned such that no matter how you launch the ball, it is delivered to
>the
>left outlane so that you have no chance of playing? Yeah, that is a
>ridiculous
>extreme,
Sadly, it's not ridiculous. I ran into an Elvira last month that
did EXACTLY that. It was badly leveled and had a bumpy playfield.
One a ball exited the bumpers and came down the right lane, it
would go straight into the left outlane. And the plunger plunges
the ball straight into the bumpers.
Tim Witort
Keith Johnson wrote:
>
> Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>
> >your strawman. Interesting though, that many machines accomodate
> >and even *reward* the player for getting a "dead ball" back
> >into play. I know that TZ does this. Of course other games
>
> I have no idea what you mean by saying TZ rewards you for getting the
> ball back in play. There's no acknowledgement whatsoever.
Note I said that it is accomodated or rewarded. TZ does not reward
it, but it does accomodate it, i.e. if you perform a bangback before
the free ride time has expired, the machine doesn't initially know
that the ball is still in play, so it autoplunges the "free ride ball"
for you, so now you have two balls in play. When one of those balls
drains and hits the outhole switch, the flippers don't go dead. The
machine "looks" for a few moments to see if any switches are being
triggered (at least that's what I assume it's doing). If the remaining
ball in play is detected, you are allowed to continue to play that ball.
I've played other games that will just kill the flippers even if there
is a ball in play that was either banged back or accidentally put into
play by the machine. This is rather frustrating. Especially since
it seems to be easier to drain one of two balls than a single ball.
It's almost in your best interest never to have a ball in play that
the game "doesn't know about."
> What I would
> assume you mean by a reward you mean more along the lines of R&B, JP,
> LAH, which actually say things like "Death Save 10,000,000" or
> something. Plus I just really like the animation on "Good Boy Sherman."
> :)
>
> >don't - as soon as the outlane or outhole switch is triggered,
> >the flippers go dead. So even the manufacturers can't agree
> >if these techniques are kosher.
>
> I've never seen flippers die on outlane activation, care to list any
> examples?
It's been a while since I played it, but it seemed like Stargate
did this. It may have been the outhole however. This does seem
like a more reasonable approach.
> And I don't care how hard you hit the machine, you are not
> getting a ball back from an outhole. Flippers may as well go ahead and
> die there.
Seems reasonable to me.
Clive Jones
In article <keefer.873902869@access5>, Keith Johnson
<kee...@access5.digex.net> writes
>
>Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>
>>your strawman. Interesting though, that many machines accomodate
>>and even *reward* the player for getting a "dead ball" back
>>into play. I know that TZ does this. Of course other games
>
>I have no idea what you mean by saying TZ rewards you for getting the
>assume you mean by a reward you mean more along the lines of R&B, JP,
>LAH, which actually say things like "Death Save 10,000,000" or
>something. Plus I just really like the animation on "Good Boy Sherman."
>:)
>
Keefer - you forgot the Tales from the Crypt 'Nice death Save' animation
where the melting woman retrometabolizes.
Clive
Tim Witort
David Gersic wrote:
>
> In <34157C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>, Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
> >glue this machine down to maintain its level.
>
> floor, the operator is ever going to get it out of there.
It's on a clay tile floor, so I imagine they will either use
a solvent to unglue it or tear out those four tiles and
replace them! This operator is somewhat smarmy anyway, so
I doubt they thought that far ahead. I wonder if they
might have glued it down because a common technique on CFTBL
(which is what this game is) is to get more hits on the
whirlpool by rythmically nudging the machine to give the
ball momentum. I doubt it though, this operator probably
wouldn't know that is done on the game. Do you get the
impression that I don't care for the operator's handling
of their pins? How I wish Jim Sweet had a route in this
town! :..(
Tony Miklos
OK, I admit it. I slam the plunger on my own Firepower. Maybe the small
barrel spring will break before it's time. So what. It's an easy way to
lock the ball in the top hole.
Tony
--
My job isn't all fun and games...
Sometimes it's just fun, and other times it's just games!
Pinball Paramedic Repairs for most coin-op machines.
Repair Service
Tony Miklos Serving the Berks, Bucks, Chester,
E. Greenville, PA 18041 Lehigh, and Montgomery County, PA area.
215-541-4167
Matt Magnasco
In article <1997091107...@tsc-p16.pconline.com>,
Michelle Bottorff <bott...@pconline.com> wrote:
> I'm not a big fan of the autoplunger/ToM type skillshot. I guess I like
>> having to learn the new skillshot instead of just moving the flashing lite
>> or hittting the big box. :)
>
>at-the-right-spot skill shot, and especially the Flintstones-style move-
>the-lit-lit-lane-with-the-flipper-buttons shot. How hard is it to press
>a few buttons while the ball is bouncing around? What sort of "skill"
>is involved here?
>
>Gimme one where you're trying to guage how far to pull a plunger any
>day.
The first time I ever played AFM, I thought, "This is a *skill* shot?"
How much skill does it take to flip a flipper and change the lit lane?
TOTAN, OTOH, has a true skill shot -- especially so for the middle
basket. I'm not criticizing manufacturers for making lame skill shots,
but, that's just it: they're lame.
I suppose Brian Eddy et al tried to compensate for the lameness on both
AFM and MM by offering the super skill shot. *That* shot, OTOH, takes a
bit of skill.
--
|\ /| att | CE senior at Georgia Tech, tour guide, RTA,
| \ / | | Fiend, nice guy, and Ruler of the Universe.
| \/ | agnasco |
---------------------+ ---> http://teriyaki.gt.ed.net/matt <---
Michelle Bottorff
Jef Lepine <jle...@ops.tiac.net> wrote:
> : To the best of my knowledge, it was a common factory feature late
> : 70s/early 80s. I've seen one on every pin from that age.
>
> Spikes?!? Geez! That's pretty rough, and I thought the 80's were tame :)
It's not much of a spike. Just enough to hurt if you slam the plunger,
not enough to break skin. (Enough to startle people, not enough to
cause lawsuits.)
> : I believe that the player slam is one reason for skill shots (the early
> : ones, where you actually needed *skill*); autoplungers, especially on
> : machines that don't have multiball refeeds; and ToM-style ball being
> : shot into the inlane.
>
Wei-Hwa Huang
Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>Note I said that it is accomodated or rewarded. TZ does not reward
>it, but it does accomodate it, i.e. if you perform a bangback before
>the free ride time has expired, the machine doesn't initially know
>that the ball is still in play, so it autoplunges the "free ride ball"
>for you, so now you have two balls in play. When one of those balls
>drains and hits the outhole switch, the flippers don't go dead. The
>machine "looks" for a few moments to see if any switches are being
>triggered (at least that's what I assume it's doing). If the remaining
>ball in play is detected, you are allowed to continue to play that ball.
I doubt this is to accommodate death saves; rather, it seems more likely
that this is there to accommodate "lost balls", i.e., a ball thought
to be missing for a few games suddenly gets dislodged and put back into
play. Especially since the older TZs didn't have "free rides".
Tim Witort
Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:
>
> Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
> >Note I said that it is accomodated or rewarded. TZ does not reward
> >it, but it does accomodate it, i.e. if you perform a bangback before
> >the free ride time has expired, the machine doesn't initially know
> >that the ball is still in play, so it autoplunges the "free ride ball"
> >for you, so now you have two balls in play. When one of those balls
> >drains and hits the outhole switch, the flippers don't go dead. The
> >machine "looks" for a few moments to see if any switches are being
> >triggered (at least that's what I assume it's doing). If the remaining
> >ball in play is detected, you are allowed to continue to play that ball.
>
> I doubt this is to accommodate death saves; rather, it seems more likely
> that this is there to accommodate "lost balls", i.e., a ball thought
> to be missing for a few games suddenly gets dislodged and put back into
> play. Especially since the older TZs didn't have "free rides".
We can only guess at what made them program it this way.
But I believe there was free ride on the first ball and
buy-in ball from the beginning on TZ. At least the option
was there and I think the default was "ON". I'll have to
check my manual. The newer ROMs allow *extending* the
free ride to more than just the first ball and the buy-in
ball.
matthew c. mead
According to Matt Magnasco <ma...@teriyaki.NO-HORMEL-PROCESSED-MEAT.gt.ed.net>:
>The first time I ever played AFM, I thought, "This is a *skill* shot?"
>How much skill does it take to flip a flipper and change the lit lane?
>TOTAN, OTOH, has a true skill shot -- especially so for the middle
>basket. I'm not criticizing manufacturers for making lame skill shots,
>but, that's just it: they're lame.
>I suppose Brian Eddy et al tried to compensate for the lameness on both
>AFM and MM by offering the super skill shot. *That* shot, OTOH, takes a
>bit of skill.
Either that, or a well practiced drop catch with an
immediate flip. :-) I can almost always hit the Damsel ramp or
the right Joust orbit on a super skill shot.
-matt
--
Matthew C. Mead
Keith Johnson
>> Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org> writes:
>> >Note I said that it is accomodated or rewarded. TZ does not reward
>> >it, but it does accomodate it, i.e. if you perform a bangback before
>> >the free ride time has expired, the machine doesn't initially know
>> >that the ball is still in play, so it autoplunges the "free ride ball"
>> >for you, so now you have two balls in play. When one of those balls
>> >drains and hits the outhole switch, the flippers don't go dead. The
>> >machine "looks" for a few moments to see if any switches are being
>> >triggered (at least that's what I assume it's doing). If the remaining
>> >ball in play is detected, you are allowed to continue to play that ball.
Actually, the plunge of the ball is an optimization. It started in Fish
Tales. Back in T2 days, you could hit an outlane switch but the ball
saver wouldn't kick in until you triggered the outhole switch. In Fish
Tales, they figured, why keep the player waiting, we'll go ahead and
plunge the ball now, figuring most people wouldn't try to get the other
ball back in play for the impromptu multiball.
TZ, BTW, is NOT checking for switches in the bonus-count-tease thing
that it does. If you have a ball in a lock, get a ball stuck somewhere
else, then wait for a ball search to kick out the locked ball, when you
drain that locked ball the exact same thing will happen (i.e. bonus will
start counting then mysteriously stop). This is until the game has been
power-cycled or whatever and the ball is officially deemed "missing,"
which to my knowledge Williams games never do in the middle of a game
(unlike Sega).
keith
--
Keith P. Johnson, keeper of rec.games.pinball DynaFAQ
If you don't have time to read the newsgroup, I don't have time to email you.
"I have one more request... one of a personal nature. I would like a
name." - The Doctor
]_eeTPiR8
In article <1997090916...@tsa-p17.pconline.com>, bott...@pconline.com (Michelle Bottorff) wrote:
>
>Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I notice that my Bally Xenon has actually got a spiked plunger knob, to
>> prevent players banging it in with their palms... It's only on the
>> Xenon... Is this a common feature, or an operators addition.
>
>70s/early 80s. I've seen one on every pin from that age.
My local "Fun Machine" arcade has such a plunger on their "Cyclone" machine.
(On the other hand, it's set to 5-ball mode, so it's worth it!)
>I believe that the player slam is one reason for skill shots (the early
>ones, where you actually needed *skill*); autoplungers, especially on
>machines that don't have multiball refeeds; and ToM-style ball being
>shot into the inlane.
Yeah, if it weren't for the spike, I would usually slam-plunge the ball. It's
the easiest way to get the skill shot on "Cyclone".
"Mean" Maansson
Hi Tim !
Tim Witort <trwN...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>
wrote in article <34157C...@NOSPAMmedicalert.org>...
>> The operator has every right to set up his machines
>> however he likes, be it to add/remove posts, change
>> software settings/pricing, or whatever. You in turn have
>> every right to complain to the operator about his setup
>> and to take your patronage elsewhere if you're not satisfied.
> Do you really believe this?
> Do you think the operator "has every right to set up his
> machines however he likes, be it to add/remove posts,
> change software settings/pricing, or whatever"?
> So you wouldn't feel cheated if a game were tuned such
> that no matter how you launch the ball, it is delivered to
> the left outlane so that you have no chance of playing?
> Yeah, that is a ridiculous extreme, but if an operator
> can set the machine up however he likes, then your
> only response can be, "Wow, that machine is set up
> hard. Not wrong or bad, mind you, but hard."
> And you can tell the operator so and not play the game.
> I, on the other hand, don't think the operator has carte
> blanche on setting up the machine. At some point,
> a line is crossed and it becomes a deception because
> something totally outside the realm of normal pinball
> setup has been used to reduce play time... in the
> mean time, unsuspecting players have been duped
> into putting their hard-earned money into a rigged
> game. Is this good for pinball? Certainly not.
HEAR, HEAR !!
You guys should read my postings about "What is the Law?"
That's exactly the problem I have with the operator in Denmark.
Only in my case, it's not a ridiculous extreme. it's real !!
Morten "MOL" Maansson
< maan...@internet.dk >