OT - Deep well water level
bill horne
recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
started sucking air. So:
There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it? And even if I
should lose my device down the hole, what problems is it likely to cause
with a screened pump?
Also, what is the ballpark drawdown - if any - of the water in the
casing when the pump is running?
Other possible relevant factors:
The power cable was taped to the pipe during pump installation, so I
think the chances of my scientific measuring device getting caught in
the cable - and becoming irretrievable - are slim, but not none.
In the beginning, when the world was without form, and void, the water
level was at 90 feet, the pump was at 125, the casing at 140, and the
hole at 180.
I've been told (but not by a well man) that the pump in a deep well is
"sealed" to the casing, and thus there will be no water above the pump
regardless of the groundwater level. I doubt this, but I don't Know that
it's not true - I've never owned a Joe Welldriller suit.
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
HHamp5246
>recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
>might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
>started sucking air. So:
Hi bill,
I can't help but...... no water doesn't mean dry well..... so I found out
yesterday. All of a sudden I had no water..... I called a well guy and he said
he's be out later or tomorrow. (today).
I arranged with my neighbor to hook up hoses to his place, run them across the
street to my pasture. I called the utilities board....... 3 week wait to tap
into the street water line.
The guy finally showed at 4:30..... I was fit to be tied.
He replaced the capacitor and voila water!! The well wasn't dry at all.........
Hunter
bill horne
>
> >I have a well. So do a lot of folks around here. One of those folks
> >recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
> >might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
> >started sucking air. So:
>
> Hi bill,
>
> I can't help but...... no water doesn't mean dry well..... so I found out
> yesterday.
It did for this guy - and for some folks in adjoining counties. They
lowered his pump 18 feet, and now he has water.
We're in a bit of a drought around here, and they're trying to put some
restrictions on the big deepwell irrigation systems. However, the guys
with the center pivots are also the guys around which much local
politics pivots, so I think that's going to be a hard row to hoe. So I'm
trying to weigh my options Before my toilet stops flushing.
Vigilance Committee
bill horne wrote:
>
> I have a well. So do a lot of folks around here. One of those folks
> recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
> might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
> started sucking air. So:
>
> There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
> a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
> weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
> turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
> wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it? And even if I
> should lose my device down the hole, what problems is it likely to cause
> with a screened pump?
Hmmmmnnn! It's been a while since we had our well drilled, like 30
years. In our case we have what is called a "pitless adapter" which is
where the pipe from the submersible pump feeds out of the side of the
casing and into the basement. It freezes pretty far down in these
parts. If you have one of those it could be hard to get past it with
your cork on a string. Maybe a pencil bobber would be good.
At any rate most of these caps have a set screw or nut on the side of
the cap that keeps it in place. I would take this off to give me better
access.
I would measure the water level with the pump off and again after it had
run for 5 minutes.
>
> Also, what is the ballpark drawdown - if any - of the water in the
> casing when the pump is running?
This will vary from well to well depending on the replacement flow. If
you can locate the person who drilled the well they often have records
going back many years. This would be on file, at least I know it is for
mine.
>
> Other possible relevant factors:
>
> The power cable was taped to the pipe during pump installation, so I
> think the chances of my scientific measuring device getting caught in
> the cable - and becoming irretrievable - are slim, but not none.
What size casing is it? 6 inch? Should be no problem.
>
> In the beginning, when the world was without form, and void, the water
> level was at 90 feet, the pump was at 125, the casing at 140, and the
> hole at 180.
That would be considered deep in these parts. We had serious droughts
here in the late 80s but it never affected my 54' well which only has a
9GPM flow.
>
> I've been told (but not by a well man) that the pump in a deep well is
> "sealed" to the casing, and thus there will be no water above the pump
> regardless of the groundwater level. I doubt this, but I don't Know that
> it's not true - I've never owned a Joe Welldriller suit.
>
I've never owned a well that deep but I know in mine the water NORMALLY
stands about 20 feet above the pump level. It draws down after pumping
at full flow for 5 minutes but only about 5 feet and after that it stays
pretty constant. Our son lives across the road and he is in a
completely different stratum. His well is 84 feet, pumps 30GPM and has
less iron and fewer minerals than ours. He cheated and used a water
witcher.
LZ
Vigilance Committee
I know of cases where neighboring landowners blew up the deep well pumps
after their wells went dry for the first time in 100+ years.
LZ
Mike Simmons
At our old place, we had a deep well and after it was drilled and the pump
installed, the driller "proved" the well and gave us a document of the
stats. Water table, well depth, draw down at specified gpm..etc... you
probably have this info too in your papers from when the well was drilled.
Rotsa ruck!
Mike
"bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
news:3D5EAE86...@rye.net...
bill horne
>
> bill horne wrote:
> >
> > I have a well. So do a lot of folks around here. One of those folks
> > recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
> > might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
> > started sucking air. So:
> >
> > There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
> > a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
> > weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
> > turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
> > wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it? And even if I
> > should lose my device down the hole, what problems is it likely to cause
> > with a screened pump?
>
> Hmmmmnnn! It's been a while since we had our well drilled, like 30
> years. In our case we have what is called a "pitless adapter" which is
> where the pipe from the submersible pump feeds out of the side of the
> casing and into the basement. It freezes pretty far down in these
> parts. If you have one of those it could be hard to get past it with
> your cork on a string. Maybe a pencil bobber would be good.
Not a problem. The pipe comes straight up out of the center of the
casing. I've got a small, oblong bobber that will go through the 1/2"
hole.
> At any rate most of these caps have a set screw or nut on the side of
> the cap that keeps it in place. I would take this off to give me better
> access.
The plate on top of the casing holds 125' feet of pipe and the pump.
There are two access holes - one has the power cable going through it,
and the other currently has a blue plastic plug.
> I would measure the water level with the pump off and again after it had
> run for 5 minutes.
Ok, I can probably do that.
> > Other possible relevant factors:
> >
> > The power cable was taped to the pipe during pump installation, so I
> > think the chances of my scientific measuring device getting caught in
> > the cable - and becoming irretrievable - are slim, but not none.
>
> What size casing is it? 6 inch? Should be no problem.
4".
> > In the beginning, when the world was without form, and void, the water
> > level was at 90 feet, the pump was at 125, the casing at 140, and the
> > hole at 180.
>
> That would be considered deep in these parts. We had serious droughts
> here in the late 80s but it never affected my 54' well which only has a
> 9GPM flow.
My in-law's pump - about a quarter mile away - is down over 200 feet.
According to my BIL.
> > I've been told (but not by a well man) that the pump in a deep well is
> > "sealed" to the casing, and thus there will be no water above the pump
> > regardless of the groundwater level. I doubt this, but I don't Know that
> > it's not true - I've never owned a Joe Welldriller suit.
> >
> I've never owned a well that deep but I know in mine the water NORMALLY
> stands about 20 feet above the pump level.
Well, that supports my suspicion that the pump is not "sealed" in the
casing.
HHamp5246
kind of a band aid repair. They do this to refrigeration / ac equipment all
the time also. It is like putting two batteries in a hard to start vehicle it
gives just a little more kick to get it started. The capacitor repair can
>last years or just weeks. So start you well pump fund today.>
The last one lasted 7 years....... it failed, they put on a new one. The place
is for sale, the new owner can replace this one when it fails.
I hate my parades rained on for future reference.
Hunter
LKing37516
and they will put the new pump at 140 ft.
Wells are sealed outside the casing to stop ground water from seeping in I'v
never known of a seal inside. My 3 wells are able to be measured by removing
the cap off the top seal and dropping a string down. A fishing weight is good
as it usually won't hangup on anything. Bounce the weight and listen for the
splash to get the water level then go to the bottom for depth
Cecil
Paul Kittel
> > In the beginning, when the world was without form, and void, the water
> > level was at 90 feet, the pump was at 125, the casing at 140, and the
> > hole at 180.
>
> That would be considered deep in these parts. We had serious droughts
> here in the late 80s but it never affected my 54' well which only has a
> 9GPM flow.
Last place we had with a well, the pump packed it in and I had to replace it.
Got hold of the guy who did the original installation (he had someone else do
the drilling) and he still had all of the records. Turns out the water level
was at 580 ft., the pump was at 620 ft. and the well itself was 660 ft. I
believe it was a 36 stage pump, just about as tall as I am.
The water conditioner gave up shortly after, and within a few days, until the
new one was installed, everything coming in contact with the water turned
yellow from all the iron in there. We spent a lot of money on salt, but it
sure did a good job of "conditioning" the water.
Paul
Will Sill
>At our old place, we had a deep well and after it was drilled and the pump
>installed, the driller "proved" the well and gave us a document of the
>stats. Water table, well depth, draw down at specified gpm..etc... you
>probably have this info too in your papers from when the well was drilled.
Many people have the same problem we have - the "water table" (really
a euphemism for how deep ya gotta go to get useful flow rates) keeps
going down as more & more neighbors pump out what they want. What
might have pertained to the day the driller went home is no longer
true. We have several neighbors who have had to drill MUCH deeper in
recent years.
For those of you with this problem: here's a description of what we
did to deal with a low-output well:
First I built a 500-gallon insulated, enclosed reservoir (cistern) in
the basement and installed a shallow-well pump pulling from that
reservoir to feed the house. Because I have never found a commercial
control panel with the desired characteristics, I designed my own
control system to work as follows:
- the well pump runs about 30 seconds every 10 minutes until the
reservoir is full, and shuts down until the float switch indicates
more is needed. [There is a safety backup - the entire system will
shut down if the level in the reservoir goes too high or too low. ]
- the house pump runs on demand, based on the pressure switch setting
on the accumulator tank.
Bottom line: we only draw about 10 gallons per _hour_ out of the well.
This would be hopelessly inadequate on an instantaneous basis, but is
more than adequate on a daily basis.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
>> > There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
>> > a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
>> > weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
>> > turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
>> > wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it?
Your theory don't mean squat - because it won't work.
LONG before a weighted cork reaches water, the string will hang up in
the side of the hole and you'll have no CLUE where the water is.
Based on my own experience, what you need is a heavy sinker and enough
wire. You will probably have to pull off the "plate" (in most cases a
plug) at the top of the casing to get enough room for a good-sized
sinker, and to be able to hear the splash when you finally hit water.
And don't be surprised if the sinker gets hung up on the way down -
the pipe, rope and wire leading to the pump is almost certainly NOT
going to stay in the middle of the hole all the way down.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet you can't get an accurate depth if
the water is more than 100' down.
It would be a nice touch to send a piece of plastic tubing down with
the pump, open at the bottom. Then, by measuring how much air
pressure you could generate (with a squeeze bulb, for example) you
could know how much water was above the pump (43 psi per hundred
feet) anytime you wanted to know. I swear I'll do it the next time
our pump has to come out!
Will KD3XR
bill horne
>
> bill horne <red...@rye.net> recently wrote these words:
>
> >> > There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
> >> > a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
> >> > weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
> >> > turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
> >> > wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it?
>
> Your theory don't mean squat - because it won't work.
>
> LONG before a weighted cork reaches water, the string will hang up in
> the side of the hole and you'll have no CLUE where the water is.
Why will it hang up on the side of PVC?
> Based on my own experience, what you need is a heavy sinker and enough
> wire. You will probably have to pull off the "plate" (in most cases a
> plug) at the top of the casing to get enough room for a good-sized
> sinker, and to be able to hear the splash when you finally hit water.
The only thing at the top of my casing (PVC) is a split plate, and this
plate holds the pipe and pump at 125 feet. There are two halfinch holes
in the plate. The power cable goes through one hole, and the other has a
plastic plug in. That currently plugged hole is my only access into
casing unless I secure the pipe and remove the plate.
> And don't be surprised if the sinker gets hung up on the way down -
> the pipe, rope and wire leading to the pump is almost certainly NOT
> going to stay in the middle of the hole all the way down.
Yeah, even though the power cable was taped to the pipe during
installation, that concerns me. There is no rope - just pipe and power
cable.
> If I were a betting man, I'd bet you can't get an accurate depth if
> the water is more than 100' down.
Why a hundred feet?
> It would be a nice touch to send a piece of plastic tubing down with
> the pump, open at the bottom. Then, by measuring how much air
> pressure you could generate (with a squeeze bulb, for example) you
> could know how much water was above the pump (43 psi per hundred
> feet) anytime you wanted to know. I swear I'll do it the next time
> our pump has to come out!
Well, let me know how it works. I'm hoping my pump won't have to come
out anytime soon.
> Will KD3XR
Alan Robinson
> Will Sill wrote:
>
<snipped>
> > It would be a nice touch to send a piece of plastic tubing
down with
> > the pump, open at the bottom. Then, by measuring how much
air
> > pressure you could generate (with a squeeze bulb, for
example) you
> > could know how much water was above the pump (43 psi per
hundred
> > feet) anytime you wanted to know. I swear I'll do it the
next time
> > our pump has to come out!
>
> Well, let me know how it works. I'm hoping my pump won't have
to come
> out anytime soon.
>
> > Will KD3XR
>
> --
> bill
> Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
This works well if used with a small air pump - when the firm I
work for was still doing pump work, we'd recommend installing the
extra tube if there was any question about well drawdown. Used in
conjunction with a low pressure switch, it can be used in wells
that produce less than the pump capacity (like Will's) to cut the
pump off at a predetermined level. A similar setup is used in
some sewage lift stations to turn pumps both on and off, avoiding
problems with floats hanging up on debris.
Alan
Will Sill
>My 3 wells are able to be measured by removing
>the cap off the top seal and dropping a string down. A fishing weight is good
>as it usually won't hangup on anything. Bounce the weight and listen for the
>splash to get the water level then go to the bottom for depth
That's fine on relaively shallow wells. Won't work on deep (over
100') holes because the string will drag on the sides of the hole and
hang up.
Someone else wrote:
>>'ve been told (but not by a well man) that the pump in a deep well is
>>"sealed" to the casing, and thus there will be no water above the pump
>>regardless of the groundwater level. I doubt this . . .
You should doubt it - it simply isn't true at all. No water above the
pump would mean immediate pump faulure.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
>> >> > There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
>> >> > a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
>> >> > weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
>> >> > turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
>> >> > wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it?
Will:
>> Your theory don't mean squat - because it won't work.
>>
>> LONG before a weighted cork reaches water, the string will hang up in
>> the side of the hole and you'll have no CLUE where the water is.
Bill:
>Why will it hang up on the side of PVC?
Because the PVC (and the side of the hole, and the rope, and the
wire) is not perfectly smooth & dry. It doesn't take much drag to
render the string & cork system useless.
I had written:
>> Based on my own experience, what you need is a heavy sinker and enough
>> wire. You will probably have to pull off the "plate" (in most cases a
>> plug) at the top of the casing to get enough room for a good-sized
>> sinker, and to be able to hear the splash when you finally hit water.
Says Bill:
>The only thing at the top of my casing (PVC) is a split plate, and this
>plate holds the pipe and pump at 125 feet. There are two halfinch holes
>in the plate. The power cable goes through one hole, and the other has a
>plastic plug in. That currently plugged hole is my only access into
>casing unless I secure the pipe and remove the plate.
I would be bigger damfool than Hugh thinks I am to say for sure what
you have there. But at my place that split plate is part of the top
seal on the well, and it does NOT support the pipe. The pipe is
supported by a pitless adapter below the frost line. If you have the
same kind of setup, you could remove the seal in order to be able to
drop a substantial weight on a wire. However, even that is a chancy
way of getting good data if the water is below 100'. Like I said:
>> And don't be surprised if the sinker gets hung up on the way down -
>> the pipe, rope and wire leading to the pump is almost certainly NOT
>> going to stay in the middle of the hole all the way down.
Bill:
>Yeah, even though the power cable was taped to the pipe during
>installation, that concerns me. There is no rope - just pipe and power
>cable.
Strange they would not have used a rope - local practice is to include
a rope with which to retrieve a pump if it should come off the pipe.
That always struck me as being even less useful than safety chains on
a trailer, but anyway they do it here, which is one reason I said.
>> If I were a betting man, I'd bet you can't get an accurate depth if
>> the water is more than 100' down.
Bill:
>Why a hundred feet?
Just pulling a number outa the ground, so to speak. Well holes in
these parts are almost never perfectly vertical OR straight. In
theory, if they were both vertical and straight, you'd still have a
problem with the plastic pipe & wire, which absolutely will NOT stay
perfectly straight for a long distance.
Me:
>> It would be a nice touch to send a piece of plastic tubing down with
>> the pump, open at the bottom. Then, by measuring how much air
>> pressure you could generate (with a squeeze bulb, for example) you
>> could know how much water was above the pump (43 psi per hundred
>> feet) anytime you wanted to know. I swear I'll do it the next time
>> our pump has to come out!
Bill:
>Well, let me know how it works. I'm hoping my pump won't have to come
>out anytime soon.
It works perfectly according to both theory & practice (see post from
someone who knows!). I just haven't done it.
Will KD3XR
bill horne
> >Why will it hang up on the side of PVC?
>
> Because the PVC (and the side of the hole, and the rope, and the
> wire) is not perfectly smooth & dry. It doesn't take much drag to
> render the string & cork system useless.
Well there's a weight on the string.
> I had written:
> >> Based on my own experience, what you need is a heavy sinker and enough
> >> wire. You will probably have to pull off the "plate" (in most cases a
> >> plug) at the top of the casing to get enough room for a good-sized
> >> sinker, and to be able to hear the splash when you finally hit water.
>
> Says Bill:
> >The only thing at the top of my casing (PVC) is a split plate, and this
> >plate holds the pipe and pump at 125 feet. There are two halfinch holes
> >in the plate. The power cable goes through one hole, and the other has a
> >plastic plug in. That currently plugged hole is my only access into
> >casing unless I secure the pipe and remove the plate.
>
> I would be bigger damfool than Hugh thinks I am to say for sure what
> you have there. But at my place that split plate is part of the top
> seal on the well, and it does NOT support the pipe. The pipe is
> supported by a pitless adapter below the frost line. If you have the
> same kind of setup, you could remove the seal in order to be able to
> drop a substantial weight on a wire. However, even that is a chancy
> way of getting good data if the water is below 100'. Like I said:
I don't know what a pitless adaptor is, I didn't see anything go in the
well that could have been one, and the frost line here is the surface of
the planet.
> Bill:
> >Why a hundred feet?
>
> Just pulling a number outa the ground, so to speak. Well holes in
> these parts are almost never perfectly vertical OR straight. In
> theory, if they were both vertical and straight, you'd still have a
> problem with the plastic pipe & wire, which absolutely will NOT stay
> perfectly straight for a long distance.
Well, my water level was originally at 90 feet, and the water pipe isn't
plastic. So that gives me a 10-ft safety margin. Which oddly enough, is
almost the same as for tire air pressure. I didn't say that. Ignore it.
Somebody else sneaked that in.
So. What happens if the thing gets hung, and rather than just tying off
the string and forgetting about it, I cut it and drop 70 feet of string
down the well? As I recall, the pump had a pretty fine screen on it.
Anyway, even though I've already constructed (and tested in a mayonaisse
jar to ensure that the weight of the sinker doesn't exceed the flotation
of the cork) The Scientific Water Level Measuring Device, you folks have
made me sufficiently nervous about using it to ensure that I probably
won't. If it starts pumping air, I'll just consider that an opportunity
to do some Black Pyramid testing in my auxiliary crapper.
Vigilance Committee
My FIL had a well that produced only 3 GPM. They installed a "choke
valve" between the pump and the storage tank so the pump would not run
dry, it just ran longer to fill the tank. The "choke valve" was really
just a gate valve set at a certain flow and then the handle removed so
it couldn't be changed easily. Worked satisfactorily for many years. A
simple solution if you have slow recharging.
LZ
Will Sill
idea:
>> >Why will it hang up on the side of PVC?
Me:
>> Because the PVC (and the side of the hole, and the rope, and the
>> wire) is not perfectly smooth & dry. It doesn't take much drag to
>> render the string & cork system useless.
Bill:
>Well there's a weight on the string.
I have a suggestion: Why don't you emulate Bill Horne and actually
TRY it. That would answer the matter once and for all with great
certainty and . . . waitaminit! Are you a Sock Puppet just
pretending to be bill horne!?
>Well, my water level was originally at 90 feet, and the water pipe isn't
>plastic.
Makes the chances for success much worse. Plastic pipe remains
fairly smooth - iron pipe rusts and will snag string easily. BTDT.
Bill"
> So that gives me a 10-ft safety margin. Which oddly enough, is
>almost the same as for tire air pressure. I didn't say that. Ignore it.
>Somebody else sneaked that in.
So, you ARE a Sock Puppet, eh?
>So. What happens if the thing gets hung, and rather than just tying off
>the string and forgetting about it, I cut it and drop 70 feet of string
>down the well? As I recall, the pump had a pretty fine screen on it.
It's yer pump, yer money. I would not try it on a bet.
>Anyway, even though I've already constructed (and tested in a mayonaisse
>jar to ensure that the weight of the sinker doesn't exceed the flotation
>of the cork) The Scientific Water Level Measuring Device, you folks have
>made me sufficiently nervous about using it to ensure that I probably
>won't. If it starts pumping air, I'll just consider that an opportunity
>to do some Black Pyramid testing in my auxiliary crapper.
Nice to see you are not oblivious to the obvious. But I call yer
attention to reality: You'd do well to have some $$$ in a sock
awaiting the day when the pump eats air - because submersible water
pumps self-destruct very quickly on a diet of air.
============
Free and true chronicle from history:
- Christmas day 1969. Well goes dry in huge snowstorm.
- A week later the hole driller pulls the pump, pronounces it DOA. He
says only solution is to buy his product - a much deeper hole, bigger
wire, bigger pump.
- Yrs trly listens to hole rather than to hole driller, hears water
running. Concludes water cannot be heard running in hole unless same
is coming in one place and going out another, theorizes (gasp!) that
since water flows downhill, entry point must be well above exit point.
- Yrs trly pours about 30' of concrete into 400' hole in rock, hoping
to seal off porous strata where water is theoretically escaping.
- Sound of water running ceases, suggesting theory is correct.
- Yrs trly (same as above) drops pebble, times interval to splash,
estimates water has risen to 250' level.
- Hole driller advised to come and install new pump
- Hole driller arrives, announces he ain't putting no pump in no dry
hole. Argument ensues wherein hole driller asserts the pebble method
worthless but admits he had nothing to measure His Way - which is with
a wire and weight.
- Hole driller goes to town to buy wire, yrs truly fabricates a weight
- Hole driller returns with wire, puts his son to work lowering
weight, occupies time with monolog about being a Well Driller since
the Big War and knowing FAR more about wells than any smartass
engineer
- Hole driller's son pauses in his routine, listens carefully, then
says: "Pop, I think you better shut up. The water is right where he
said, at 250 feet".
Have a nice day.
Will KD3XR
Vigilance Committee
As a cheap fix that might solve the problem until water levels are
restored, check out the "choke valve" treatment I mentioned in this
thread.
LZ
FLiP
Just a couple of points.
Pit less adapter is a brass coupling with part one run through the side
of your well pipe connected to the water line running to the house, part two
attaches to the line running down the well. Part one and two are made so
that part two slides down into part one, with part one supporting the pipe
and pump.
As to running the pump dry you should have had a low pressure switch
installed where the water line comes into the house. If water pressure falls
below a set limit the pump is shut off and a manual override is required
till the pressure is restored.
As to dropping a line or anything else down the well, I have encountered
stabilizing spacers which may prevent such testing. These spacers are
normally used on deep wells and placed about every 25 ft to 50 ft. Their
purpose is to stabilize the pump and line, in an attempt to minimize
breakage from pump torque at start up. This breakage is the reason for the
recovery rope which is secured to the top of the pump and tied off securely
at the top of the well casing.
Hope this helps.
Frank
Will Sill
> Pit less adapter is a brass coupling with part one run through the side
>of your well pipe connected to the water line running to the house, part two
>attaches to the line running down the well. Part one and two are made so
>that part two slides down into part one, with part one supporting the pipe
>and pump.
Excellent description. Thanx.
> As to running the pump dry you should have had a low pressure switch
>installed where the water line comes into the house. If water pressure falls
>below a set limit the pump is shut off and a manual override is required
>till the pressure is restored.
I am personally dubious about that system, though it SHOULD work OK if
there is a time delay in the control. That would be necessary
because it takes some time (seconds, at least) for pressure to come up
after the pump starts. But maybe that is part of the design? Even if
the foot valve (check valve at the pump) doesn't leak down, it is
normal to have a bleeder hole below the frost line so there is no
standing water left to freeze when there is no flow. (Also needs a
"snifter" just ahead of the accumulator tank check valve to admit air
and allow water to drain through the bleeder.)
> As to dropping a line or anything else down the well, I have encountered
>stabilizing spacers which may prevent such testing. These spacers are
>normally used on deep wells and placed about every 25 ft to 50 ft. Their
>purpose is to stabilize the pump and line, in an attempt to minimize
>breakage from pump torque at start up.
>>>Slapping forhead<<< Correct - I plum forgot about those. They
will for sure impede any attempt to measure water depth with the pipe
in place. Of course, Bill Horne sez he has no rope - so maybe there
are also no spacers?
>This breakage is the reason for the
>recovery rope which is secured to the top of the pump and tied off securely
>at the top of the well casing.
I really thought that was required by some regulation but apparently
not.
Will KD3XR
FLiP
In our area the well lines stay pressurized all the time. The better
installations have a check valve in the line where it comes into the house,
in front of the pressure switch i.e. between switch and pump.
Local code requires all lines to be below the frost line, minimum 40 inches
up here in the north end of the county.
Frank
bill horne
>
> Bill
> Just a couple of points.
> Pit less adapter is a brass coupling with part one run through the side
> of your well pipe connected to the water line running to the house, part two
> attaches to the line running down the well. Part one and two are made so
> that part two slides down into part one, with part one supporting the pipe
> and pump.
Then I don't have one. My water pipe comes straight up out of the center
of the casing, goes about 6", turns left, and goes to the tank.
> As to running the pump dry you should have had a low pressure switch
> installed where the water line comes into the house. If water pressure falls
> below a set limit the pump is shut off and a manual override is required
> till the pressure is restored.
I don't have one of those either - unless it's a part of the relay in
the well house that turns the pump on and off.
> As to dropping a line or anything else down the well, I have encountered
> stabilizing spacers which may prevent such testing. These spacers are
> normally used on deep wells and placed about every 25 ft to 50 ft. Their
> purpose is to stabilize the pump and line, in an attempt to minimize
> breakage from pump torque at start up.
I don't recall seeing any spacers when they put the pump in.
> This breakage is the reason for the
> recovery rope which is secured to the top of the pump and tied off securely
> at the top of the well casing.
There is no rope in my well.
> Hope this helps.
> Frank
Thanks, though.
Neon John
>I have a well. So do a lot of folks around here. One of those folks
>recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
>might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
>started sucking air. So:
>
>There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
>a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
>weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
>turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
>wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it? And even if I
>should lose my device down the hole, what problems is it likely to cause
>with a screened pump?
Been there, done that. Forget the float - won't work. The string will be so
heavy that you'll never detect the change in tension when the float touches
down. Using a string, simply put a weight on it and drop it down the pipe
while shining a light down the hole. You should be able to see the ripples in
the water when the weight hits the surface. If you can't, try a small
telescope or one tube of a set of binoculars. I was able to see the surface
of the water well enough in my ~150 ft well at the cabin to measure the level.
On another occasion I used one of those moderately priced Bushnell laser
rangefinders that golfers and shooters use to measure the water level. it
took some very careful aiming but I did eventually get a very accurate
reading.
Another technique that would probably work, though I've not tried it, is to
drop a wire down the hole, have an ohmmeter hooked between it and the casing
and watch for conductivity when the end of the wire hits the water. A metal
weight electrically attached to the end of the wire should both make it drop
more easily and produce a lower ohm reading when it gets wet.
>
>Also, what is the ballpark drawdown - if any - of the water in the
>casing when the pump is running?
That is entirely dependent on your local conditions. How deep the water vein
is. How porous the rock in the vein is. Whether you hit water bearing rock
(sandstone, for instance) or an actual underground reservoir or stream. Etc.
My well hit an actual flowing underground stream according to the well driller
so its level doesn't drop at all. Your well driller should have done a flow
test on the well. If you can find the docs from when it was drilled, it may
be documented on the work order.
>I've been told (but not by a well man) that the pump in a deep well is
>"sealed" to the casing, and thus there will be no water above the pump
>regardless of the groundwater level. I doubt this, but I don't Know that
>it's not true - I've never owned a Joe Welldriller suit.
Can't comment on REALLY deep wells like they have out west but here in Tn, our
well is considered deep. The submersible pump simply hangs by a stainless
steel cable, the plastic pipe and the power wiring. When I converted from a
jet pump to a submersible, I simply dropped the pump until it hit bottom,
pulled it up about 10 ft and called it good. I never get any mud or silt and
it never runs dry so I must have done it close to right.
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd (old)
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ (new)
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Will Sill
Interesting. What county?
I have been a bit tentative about this because I see evidence that
there are many variations in practice. Just this summer our PA
legislature considered a fairly sweeping bill to regulate (of course)
well drillers - most of whom have been nothing more than hole drillers
with a pump franchise. As usual, the regulations appear far too
complex and invasive, but some of these drillers have neither brains
nor conscience.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
twi filter and wrote some good stuff about this topic - with some of
his usual bullkshit thrown in:
About checking level with a cork he says:
> Forget the float - won't work. The string will be so
>heavy that you'll never detect the change in tension when the float touches
>down.
Right answer, wrong reason.
>Using a string, simply put a weight on it and drop it down the pipe
>while shining a light down the hole. You should be able to see the ripples in
>the water when the weight hits the surface.
Don't be ridiculous. That will work ONLY for the rare perfectly
straight hole in a relatively shallow well - WITH NO PUMP, PIPE, WIRE,
or ROPE in the way - not to mention the rubber stabilier disks.
Will KD3XR
bill horne
>
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:13:58 -0400, bill horne <red...@rye.net> wrote:
>
> >I have a well. So do a lot of folks around here. One of those folks
> >recently had to have his pump lowered. This prompted me to opine that it
> >might be a Good Thing if I knew what my water level was Before my pump
> >started sucking air. So:
> >
> >There is a plate on the top of my casing that has a blue plastic plug in
> >a half inch hole. I'm pondering removing this plug, and dropping a
> >weighted, corked string down it to find the water level. I intend to
> >turn the pump off while doing this. Is there any reason why this
> >wouldn't work - or any reason why I shouldn't do it? And even if I
> >should lose my device down the hole, what problems is it likely to cause
> >with a screened pump?
>
> Been there, done that. Forget the float - won't work.
Well, the concensus seems to be that this is a bad idea - for a variety
of reasons. I think I'll just disassemble my Water Level Measuring
Device, and rely on the kitchen faucet to tell me when the water level
is too low.
Will Sill
>We're in a bit of a drought around here. . . . .. So I'm
>trying to weigh my options Before my toilet stops flushing.
I noticed one idea posted as a way of dealing with a low-flow well -
restricting the flow from pump to accumulator. Opinions vary, but a
well that produces a lot less than 5 gpm is a Problem for most
homeowners. (Filling a washer or flushing a water conditioner can
very well exceed the supply and ruin the pump. BTDT.) But the
restrictor idea will only work if the restricted flow rate is OK in
the house.
Conservation is always laudable but we have found that we can take
lavish showers and wash the car, dishes & laundry all in one short
period - because we have the 500-gallon reservoir alluded to in an
earlier post. We only draw about 10 gallons per HOUR out of the well,
but that is more than sufficient on a daily basis.
Restricting the flow from the pump to a rate even close to our 10 gph
would be unacceptable to most users. Imagine waiting an hour for the
washer tub to fill!
The low pressure switch idea has merit, but it doesn't solve the
problem of low flow - it just protects the pump, but only if it works
dependably and does not let the pump run dry too long before shutting
down.
I hesitate to recommend the reservoir/cistern idea to others because
of a variety of issues - including the problems of a control system
not being readily available. But it works for us. Takes up a bit of
space but solves the Problem.
Will KD3XR
bill horne
I don't have a low flow well, I just have the possibility of the water
level dropping below the level of the pump, and I just want to know how
close I may be to that happening. If I'm getting close, I'll get the
pump dropped now, rather than wait. The going rate to drop the pump
right now is about $150. If I wait until half the county has to have
pumps dropped, it'll probably be higher.
Just Me
Bill,
Check the paperwork on your pump (if you still have it) and see how
much, if any, reduction in pumping capacity [flow rate] you may expect
to experience with an increase of 10' [perhaps 20'] of "head" over that
as originally installed.
Compare the current flow rate with that originally observed (if
recorded) at the time the pump was installed.
A fractional increase in flow rate [you may have to use a GPH measure]
would be attributible to the decrease of "head" over the pump and would
be proportional to the decrease tabulated for an increased "head".
Having had submersible pumps at 2 prior locations, I *do* understand
"where you're coming from".
Although lowering the pump 20' could reduce the flow rate, if there's
an ongoing lowering of the water table you'd get it back later.
If nothing else, the $150 would buy you "Peace of Mind".
It would also be a good time to have the pump checked out, especially
if it's 10+ years old.
Hugh
We had a reservoir back on the farm. The spring that fed the
house had a very low flow. It dumped in the concrete tank in
the basement and the pump took it from there. Served well as
a cooler for our eggs. Probably not for anal retentive types
as we didn't "treat" the water. it flowed out of the ground
into a hole dug on the hillside. A pipe ran out of the hole,
down into a creek bed, then up to the house. There was a
lateral that went to the barn as well. Since there was only
a coarse screen over the spring end of the pipe, that only
served to keep the "chunks" out. Frogs lived in the little
pond, birds most likely got drinks from it as well as deer
and smaller animals. No doubt raccoons "washed" their food
in it so it was a well used spring. Best damn tasting water
we ever had till we got our own spring water in our next to
last house.
Hugh
Will Sill
>I don't have a low flow well, I just have the possibility of the water
>level dropping below the level of the pump, and I just want to know how
>close I may be to that happening. If I'm getting close, I'll get the
>pump dropped now, rather than wait. The going rate to drop the pump
>right now is about $150. If I wait until half the county has to have
>pumps dropped, it'll probably be higher.
The concept of a "water table" is mostly theory. In practice,
underground water seeps through the local strata in mostly unknown
directions and amounts. The most probable first event in prolonged
drought and/or increased draw-down by more & thirstier neighbors will
be low flow. IOW there will be water coming into yer well hole, but
the quantity will diminish as time passes.
If your well is deep enough and local people can drop the pump 20' for
only $150, I'd have to say that is a bargain worthy of admission to
the Silas Marner Society.
But since they have to pull said pump to lower it, you might want to
think about having them pull a length of plastic tubing down with it
on the return trip so you can use an air pressure reading to verify
the amount of water above the pump at any moment of interest.
All you hafta remember is 43 psi/hundred feet of water.
Will KD3XR
Sylvan Butler
> Another technique that would probably work, though I've not tried it, is to
> drop a wire down the hole, have an ohmmeter hooked between it and the casing
> and watch for conductivity when the end of the wire hits the water. A metal
> weight electrically attached to the end of the wire should both make it drop
> more easily and produce a lower ohm reading when it gets wet.
That's about what the pro's use. I believe they use a two-conductor
wire though, so as not to rely on conductivity to the casing.
sdb
--
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Sylvan Butler
And that this condition wasn't anticipated when the house was built?
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:11:38 GMT, Will Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote:
> First I built a 500-gallon insulated, enclosed reservoir (cistern) in
> the basement and installed a shallow-well pump pulling from that
Basement because putting it in a hole in the ground was too hard?
> control panel with the desired characteristics, I designed my own
> control system to work as follows:
>
> - the well pump runs about 30 seconds every 10 minutes until the
Wouldn't it have been better to use a smaller pump that could run
longer? Everything I've been told indicates that submersible pumps
are worn out more by the starting, and that longer run times less often
are always preferred. (Eg, my sprinkler system must be balanced to the
pump to avoid frequent cycling.)
> Bottom line: we only draw about 10 gallons per _hour_ out of the well.
> This would be hopelessly inadequate on an instantaneous basis, but is
> more than adequate on a daily basis.
Sounds like a great system.
Sylvan Butler
> Although lowering the pump 20' could reduce the flow rate, if there's
> an ongoing lowering of the water table you'd get it back later.
Not true. If anything, lowering the height of the water table will
further reduce the flow rate.
The "head" the pump works against is composed of the height the water
must be lifted, and the pressure into which it is pumped. The water
table being higher reduces the height the water must be lifted. The
lower the water table the higher the water must be lifted. The depth of
the pump does not affect this because the water above the pump and the
water inside the pump output will want to be at the same level.
> It would also be a good time to have the pump checked out, especially
> if it's 10+ years old.
Typically uou can't check a submersible pump without pulling it.
Pulling it usually costs more than just dropping it lower. Might be
worth it, or you might figure it will be due for replacement and either
ignore it until then, or pull it and put a new one in the hole. Around
my area the well folks expect to replace a pump at 12 to 15 years. (Had
to do mine last year, and at 25 years old, I can't complain too much.)
Sylvan Butler
> We had a reservoir back on the farm. The spring that fed the
> house had a very low flow. It dumped in the concrete tank in
> the basement and the pump took it from there. Served well as
> a cooler for our eggs. Probably not for anal retentive types
> as we didn't "treat" the water. it flowed out of the ground
Sounds good to me...
House where my father grew up used a "cistern" like that. Except they
filled it from the irrigation ditch every few months. Early every
summer we'd drain the cistern, climb down inside and scrub the
(concrete) walls (about 8x10x15ft). Every visit to grandma's house my
sister would get some GI upset, but it never bothered the rest of us.
About 1980 grandma had a well drilled. Very high iron content. Had to
hold your nose to even think to drink it. No more white fixtures at
grandma's house!
My uncle had to haul water to his new house until they could hook up to
city water a few years later. Estimates from well drillers ran from
1000ft to 1500ft deep well to get water. That wasn't even an option.
My well is great. Water a bit hard, but not a problem. Great taste,
great flow (excess of 25gpm). Only problem is it is an old well, the
area has seen a lot of growth, and the water table keeps dropping. Pump
only has about 2ft of water below it, and about 10ft of water above.
That's what I get for buying the "old house" in the neighborhood.
Neighbor's well collapsed a couple of years ago. They had to go down
250ft to get good flow.
> lateral that went to the barn as well. Since there was only
> a coarse screen over the spring end of the pipe, that only
> served to keep the "chunks" out. Frogs lived in the little
A bit of work would bring it up to modern standards. Now days they
recommend to enclose the spring entirely (pref in concrete or masonry),
run the pipe out from inside the enclosure and thoroughly screen the
overflow outlet to keep out the critters.
> in it so it was a well used spring. Best damn tasting water
> we ever had till we got our own spring water in our next to
I wish I had a spring or artesian well. :)
Will Sill
wrote these words:
>I take it your "low flow" well may actually be "low reserve capacity"?
>And that this condition wasn't anticipated when the house was built?
A rose by any other name - when the well was first drilled the
driller only claimed we were getting 2gpm using a crude measuring
system. The water was rising to about the 250 foot level (400' to
bottom) and appeared to include a "pocket" that stored a reserve. The
latter was guess-work by the hole-driller. Since then many new
neighbors (within 1/4 mile) have tapped the aquafer, and as noted
earlier, the driller had gone past a supply vein and into porous rock
that eroded enough in 2 years to run us "dry". That was when I poured
concrete in the hole and raised the pump to about the 365' level.
I had written:
>> First I built a 500-gallon insulated, enclosed reservoir (cistern) in
>> the basement and installed a shallow-well pump pulling from that
SB:
>Basement because putting it in a hole in the ground was too hard?
Hard? Well, in way, yes. It would have been VERY expensive. It would
involve blasting and building a roof, etc. VERY impractical for us.
Will:
>> - the well pump runs about 30 seconds every 10 minutes until the
SB:
>Wouldn't it have been better to use a smaller pump that could run
>longer? Everything I've been told indicates that submersible pumps
>are worn out more by the starting, and that longer run times less often
>are always preferred. (Eg, my sprinkler system must be balanced to the
>pump to avoid frequent cycling.)
Yes. If/when I have to replace the pump, I will surely opt for a
smaller pump for that exact reason. It would have cost an extra
$1000+/- to change pumps when I built the reservoir system - and since
the existing pump is holding up fine after 4+ years, I have no motive
to change it.
However, the Big Problem with "frequent starts" on motors is the
heating effect of the inrush current. A submersible pump that sits in
cold water for 10 minutes between starts is not gonna have any
measurable temperature rise. Or so I think.
>> Bottom line: we only draw about 10 gallons per _hour_ out of the well.
>> This would be hopelessly inadequate on an instantaneous basis, but is
>> more than adequate on a daily basis.
>
>Sounds like a great system.
Thanx. To date the worst problem we've had was caused by a stuck
toilet valve that tripped the back-up safety system and shut down
everything. I can't recommend this system to everyone but it works
just fine.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
wrote these words:
>Typically uou can't check a submersible pump without pulling it.
>Pulling it usually costs more than just dropping it lower.
Would you really advocate lowering a pump without pulling it - if only
to clean the screeen and check it out?
Will KD3XR
bill horne
> But since they have to pull said pump to lower it, you might want to
> think about having them pull a length of plastic tubing down with it
> on the return trip so you can use an air pressure reading to verify
> the amount of water above the pump at any moment of interest.
> All you hafta remember is 43 psi/hundred feet of water.
>
> Will KD3XR
No, they don't have to pull it - they just add another length of pipe,
some power cable, and lower it. I expect pulling it would cost a bit
more than $150.
Also, I don't know the rules on bleeder valves. For all I know they may
have to pull up the first section of pipe to move the valve up to the
new section of pipe. Does it matter if the bleeder valve is at 20' or
40'?
Chris Bryant
<<..>>
>I wish I had a spring or artesian well. :)
>
>sdb
I've got three artesian wells here- two which are
intermittent, one which flows all the time.
But.. I'll drink my water from the city pipe, after smelling
the water that comes out of the well.
--
Chris Bryant
Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com
bill horne
> Bill,
>
> Check the paperwork on your pump (if you still have it) and see how
> much, if any, reduction in pumping capacity [flow rate] you may expect
> to experience with an increase of 10' [perhaps 20'] of "head" over that
> as originally installed.
>
> Compare the current flow rate with that originally observed (if
> recorded) at the time the pump was installed.
>
> A fractional increase in flow rate [you may have to use a GPH measure]
> would be attributible to the decrease of "head" over the pump and would
> be proportional to the decrease tabulated for an increased "head".
>
> Having had submersible pumps at 2 prior locations, I *do* understand
> "where you're coming from".
>
> Although lowering the pump 20' could reduce the flow rate, if there's
> an ongoing lowering of the water table you'd get it back later.
>
> If nothing else, the $150 would buy you "Peace of Mind".
>
> It would also be a good time to have the pump checked out, especially
> if it's 10+ years old.
As long as the pump doesn't start sucking air, I don't think flow rate
is going to be a problem. I don't know what the original rate was 17
years ago, but according to a bucket and a stopwatch, it's now about 11
gpm through a 4' 5/8" hose. And it may have even been putting a little
bit into the tank through the 1" pipe. I have a faucet at the top of the
well, before the checkvalve and tank. Sometimes in the summer, I want a
drink of water straight out of the ground. It warms up sitting in the
tank.
Will Sill
>Will Sill wrote:
>
>> But since they have to pull said pump to lower it, you might want to
>> think about having them pull a length of plastic tubing down with it
>> on the return trip so you can use an air pressure reading to verify
>> the amount of water above the pump at any moment of interest.
>> All you hafta remember is 43 psi/hundred feet of water.
Bill:
>No, they don't have to pull it - they just add another length of pipe,
>some power cable, and lower it. I expect pulling it would cost a bit
>more than $150.
Me too, but I'd want to see it and inspect it.
>Also, I don't know the rules on bleeder valves. For all I know they may
>have to pull up the first section of pipe to move the valve up to the
>new section of pipe. Does it matter if the bleeder valve is at 20' or
>40'?
Veddy interesting. I can see where you COULD pull the pump far enuf
to add more pipe & wire, but I'd advise against that technigue unless
you know very well what's down there. Over the years plenty of sludge
can collect - if I wuz you I'd wanna know about that stuff before
blindly dropping the pump down.
BTW in these parts almost all well pumps are now going down on plastic
pipe - even as far as 5-600 feet. Nobody is using iron pipe unless
they must. Is yours on iron? Mine was for the first few years, and
it rusted internally to the point you could not get a pencil lead
through it.
No Brake Fluid present, either.
On the bleeder valve or hole: in my well it is just small a hole in
the pipe. - no valve to it. The only difference bewteen 20' and 40'
down would be how much water the pump has to furnish to start charging
yer tank. When my pump was feeding a pressure tank (accumulator) there
was a check valve on the tank inlet, with a "snifter valve" (a tire
valve stem) directly ahead of it. When the pump stopped, air could be
heard entering as water peed out the bleeder. Now that the pump just
feeds my reservoir, the snifter & check valves are off in a parts box
somewhere.
Will KD3XR
Hugh
Hey Chris, does the smelly water come from the lower
aquifer?
Hugh
bill horne
>
> bill horne <red...@rye.net> recently wrote these words:
>
> >Will Sill wrote:
> >
> >> But since they have to pull said pump to lower it, you might want to
> >> think about having them pull a length of plastic tubing down with it
> >> on the return trip so you can use an air pressure reading to verify
> >> the amount of water above the pump at any moment of interest.
> >> All you hafta remember is 43 psi/hundred feet of water.
>
> Bill:
> >No, they don't have to pull it - they just add another length of pipe,
> >some power cable, and lower it. I expect pulling it would cost a bit
> >more than $150.
>
> Me too, but I'd want to see it and inspect it.
>
> >Also, I don't know the rules on bleeder valves. For all I know they may
> >have to pull up the first section of pipe to move the valve up to the
> >new section of pipe. Does it matter if the bleeder valve is at 20' or
> >40'?
>
> Veddy interesting. I can see where you COULD pull the pump far enuf
> to add more pipe & wire, but I'd advise against that technigue unless
> you know very well what's down there. Over the years plenty of sludge
> can collect - if I wuz you I'd wanna know about that stuff before
> blindly dropping the pump down.
If I end up having to do it, I'll probably let the well guy make that
decision. He should know if sludging is a problem around here. And as
far as I know, they don't pull it to add pipe. They just disconnect the
pipe to the tank, screw in another section, and lower it.
> BTW in these parts almost all well pumps are now going down on plastic
> pipe - even as far as 5-600 feet. Nobody is using iron pipe unless
> they must. Is yours on iron?
Yes.
> Mine was for the first few years, and
> it rusted internally to the point you could not get a pencil lead
> through it.
I don't think I have that problem yet. A stopwatch and a bucket tells me
I'm pumping about 11 gpm through 4' of 5/8" garden hose attached to a
faucet on my 1" well pipe. It's been down 17 years.
My in-law's pump has been down since 1966, and it's still working.
> No Brake Fluid present, either.
There's your problem - pour some BF in there periodically, and it won't
rust.
> On the bleeder valve or hole: in my well it is just small a hole in
> the pipe. - no valve to it. The only difference bewteen 20' and 40'
> down would be how much water the pump has to furnish to start charging
> yer tank. When my pump was feeding a pressure tank (accumulator) there
> was a check valve on the tank inlet, with a "snifter valve" (a tire
> valve stem) directly ahead of it. When the pump stopped, air could be
> heard entering as water peed out the bleeder.
I've got all that too - along with an air bleed valve in the tank. But I
don't know whether my bleeder valve is a valve or a hole. But whatever
it is, it's still working.
> Will KD3XR
Will Sill
well pump farther down on the hole:
>If I end up having to do it, I'll probably let the well guy make that
>decision. He should know if sludging is a problem around here. And as
>far as I know, they don't pull it to add pipe. They just disconnect the
>pipe to the tank, screw in another section, and lower it.
FIne, but around here the "well guys" are (with few exceptions) hole
drillers and pump salesmen. Based on experience I know a lot of crud
gradually finds its way to the bottom in these parts, and I would not
be willing to gamble that a hole driller wouldn't arrange to sell me a
new pump by virtue of having dropped my good one into sludge.
Also I said:
> . . in these parts almost all well pumps are now going down on plastic
>> pipe - even as far as 5-600 feet. Nobody is using iron pipe unless
>> they must. Is yours on iron?
Bill:
>Yes.
Will:
>> Mine was for the first few years, and
>> it rusted internally to the point you could not get a pencil lead
>> through it.
Bill:
>I don't think I have that problem yet. A stopwatch and a bucket tells me
>I'm pumping about 11 gpm through 4' of 5/8" garden hose attached to a
>faucet on my 1" well pipe. It's been down 17 years.
>My in-law's pump has been down since 1966, and it's still working.
Contrary to popular belief the tendency of water to corrode pipe
varies widely, and I know some have had very long-lived iron pipe.
Still, it would make me a bit nervous to have somebody unscrew a 1"
pipe 17 years old and screw on a new section. Free advice: the
plastic works GREAT.
Will:
>> No Brake Fluid present, either.
Bill:
>There's your problem - pour some BF in there periodically, and it won't
>rust.
AHA! Now I know why you are a BF expert! You drink the stuff!
8-)
"Most people are about as happy as they make up their
minds to be." [A. Lincoln]
Will KD3XR
Vigilance Committee
You aren't one of those dummies who built a house and then went looking
for water, are you?
I know people do that but I can't figure out why.
LZ
Will Sill
add:
>You aren't one of those dummies who built a house and then went looking
>for water, are you?
>
>I know people do that but I can't figure out why.
No, but I am one of those people who've had a bellyful of useless
twaddle from Vigilance Committee <lin...@att.net>
<plonk>
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
Hugh
snipped
>
> You aren't one of those dummies who built a house and then went looking
> for water, are you?
>
> I know people do that but I can't figure out why.
> LZ
Oh oh, now you done it LZ. <lmao>
Hugh
bill horne
> Contrary to popular belief the tendency of water to corrode pipe
> varies widely, and I know some have had very long-lived iron pipe.
> Still, it would make me a bit nervous to have somebody unscrew a 1"
> pipe 17 years old and screw on a new section. Free advice: the
> plastic works GREAT.
Apparently so does iron. My in-laws' well pipe has been hangin' there
for 36 years. And so has the pump. The inlaws (MIL and FIL) died 5 years
ago, but the BIL still uses it to water the cows.
> AHA! Now I know why you are a BF expert! You drink the stuff!
>
> 8-)
Damn. I didn't know you could drink it. How's it go with Coke? If it
goes good with water, it'd be great for boondocking - just pour it, and
wait for it to make its own water.
Chris Bryant
To be honest- I'm not sure how deep the wells are- I've tasted
the water, but I wouldn't want to drink it without testing.
Sylvan Butler
Not a 10 yr old pump like the one under discussion. I'd recommend just
leaving that one alone. It isn't worth the expense to pull it out and
then drop it back down. If you are going to do that, might as well put
a new one down the hole.
Every situation is going to be different. If the pump is hanging from a
continuous length of poly tubing, I'd be hesitant to add a splice so I'd
be inclined to pull it (generally pulling a poly pipe pump means new
pipe anyway... ever tried to coil or even just prevent kinking of 100's
of feet of cold, stiff poly tubing?). But replacing 600ft of poly
tubing instead of splicing on a 20ft length might overcome that
hesitation. If hung with 600ft of rigid pipe with a coupling every
20ft, adding another 20ft length is going to be a LOT cheaper than
pulling the pump up to take a look. But a 100ft well like this one
probably doesn't make much difference.
However most of what you want to know about a submersible pump can be
deduced by watching the start current and run current thru a complete
cycle. Then again with an open output right at the well head while you
determine flow rate. Your deduction will be better if you can compare
to numbers recorded when first installed, but comparing to the mfg's
specs will indicate if things are going really bad.
Sylvan Butler
> I don't think I have that problem yet. A stopwatch and a bucket tells me
> I'm pumping about 11 gpm through 4' of 5/8" garden hose attached to a
> faucet on my 1" well pipe. It's been down 17 years.
Don't touch it. You are already on borrowed time.
> My in-law's pump has been down since 1966, and it's still working.
Must be in a very nice environment down there. What killed mine was a
build up of iron/rust particles (down in 1977). They were amazed it was
still working... Could hardly see the shape of the pump, and couldn't
see the screen at all. (And nobody notices iron in our water.)
Oh, and for Will's information... I don't think many pipes are hung on
iron around here (SW Idaho). Mine was on poly tubing (which came out
with a continuous orange layer inside and up to about 20ft down on the
outside also), but the new pump went down on sch80 PVC, threaded into
brass fittings between 20ft sections.
>> No Brake Fluid present, either.
>
> There's your problem - pour some BF in there periodically, and it won't
> rust.
Don't you mean ATF? BF is hygroscopic...
:)
Sylvan Butler
> Sylvan Butler wrote:
>>I wish I had a spring or artesian well. :)
> I've got three artesian wells here- two which are
> intermittent, one which flows all the time.
> But.. I'll drink my water from the city pipe, after smelling
> the water that comes out of the well.
There is that. But this time of year I pay significant $ in electricity
to pump water for irrigation. Cutting the head by 50-100ft would help.
I wonder about the cost of water treatment compared to city water...
Chris Bryant
>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:55:44 -0400, Chris Bryant <Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> Sylvan Butler wrote:
>>>I wish I had a spring or artesian well. :)
>
>> I've got three artesian wells here- two which are
>> intermittent, one which flows all the time.
>> But.. I'll drink my water from the city pipe, after smelling
>> the water that comes out of the well.
>
>There is that. But this time of year I pay significant $ in electricity
>to pump water for irrigation. Cutting the head by 50-100ft would help.
>
>I wonder about the cost of water treatment compared to city water...
>
>sdb
Yeah- *if* I used much water for irrigation, I would certainly
use the well- the only time I have used much is back in '98 during the
fires- and that was just so the highway frontage wasn't totally
crispy. As it is right now, we use between 1000 and 2000
gallons/month, which costs $12-13 here.
I'm not quite sure what I will do with the main well- it is a
3" pipe with a T on the top, with a hose spigot installed in the T.
It is old enough that the spigot is plugged (I thought it was going
dry), but when I tried to remove it, the top of the pipe started to
break- giving me a 20' stream of water. I'm trying to figure out how
to cut the pipe off, and put a new top on, all while it is under
pressure.
Will Sill
wrote these words:
>Every situation is going to be different. If the pump is hanging from a
>continuous length of poly tubing, I'd be hesitant to add a splice so I'd
>be inclined to pull it (generally pulling a poly pipe pump means new
>pipe anyway... ever tried to coil or even just prevent kinking of 100's
>of feet of cold, stiff poly tubing?). But replacing 600ft of poly
>tubing instead of splicing on a 20ft length might overcome that
>hesitation. If hung with 600ft of rigid pipe with a coupling every
>20ft, adding another 20ft length is going to be a LOT cheaper than
>pulling the pump up to take a look. But a 100ft well like this one
>probably doesn't make much difference.
Not arguing, but to emphasize yer point about "Every situation is
going to be different.", our pump is on 360' of plastic pipe. The
same pipe has been re-used several times with no problem. They
prevent kinking by not trying to coil it - the well crew just carries
the end off into the distance. They use a power lift contrivance to
pull the pump. Having watched the operation more times than I wanted
to, I can assure one & all that with their setup, pulling the pump all
the way outa the hole takes only minutes longer than just adding some
length at the top. The vast majority of the labor is associated with
setting up equipment, opening the seal, etc.
And the point about rigid pipe is VERY valid - it takes a long time to
pull & dismantle. I was very glad to replace the stuff with plastic.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
wrote these words about Bill Horne's report of success with iron pipe:
>Must be in a very nice environment down there. What killed mine was a
>build up of iron/rust particles (down in 1977). They were amazed it was
>still working... Could hardly see the shape of the pump, and couldn't
>see the screen at all. (And nobody notices iron in our water.)
Local condions vary a LOT - some otherwise "good" water is quite
corrosive. Ours tends to be that way.
>Oh, and for Will's information... I don't think many pipes are hung on
>iron around here (SW Idaho). Mine was on poly tubing (which came out
>with a continuous orange layer inside and up to about 20ft down on the
>outside also), but the new pump went down on sch80 PVC, threaded into
>brass fittings between 20ft sections.
Interesting - not sure why that is an advantage vs the continuous
flexible pipe. More labor, more cost, but no better performance.
What am I missing?
>>> No Brake Fluid present, either.
>>
>> There's your problem - pour some BF in there periodically, and it won't
>> rust.
>
>Don't you mean ATF? BF is hygroscopic...
Sorry, that was an inside joke arising from an ongoing discussion
about BF, in which myths are being punctured on a regular basis.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
> I'm not quite sure what I will do with the main well- it is a
>3" pipe with a T on the top, with a hose spigot installed in the T.
>It is old enough that the spigot is plugged (I thought it was going
>dry), but when I tried to remove it, the top of the pipe started to
>break- giving me a 20' stream of water. I'm trying to figure out how
>to cut the pipe off, and put a new top on, all while it is under
>pressure.
Let me see if I have this right: You have this "artesian well" that
has enough natural pressure to throw a stream of water 20 feet?
And you live in Floriduh, where the highest elevation is around 400'
above mean sea level, right?
On what theory do you rely to explain this apparent miracle? ANd why
are you not using this energy to power your busienss and water the
parched earth too?
Or is this still another troll like BF sucking water in through hoses?
Will KD3XR
Sylvan Butler
> I'm not quite sure what I will do with the main [artesian] well- it is a
> 3" pipe with a T on the top, with a hose spigot installed in the T.
> It is old enough that the spigot is plugged (I thought it was going
> dry), but when I tried to remove it, the top of the pipe started to
> break- giving me a 20' stream of water. I'm trying to figure out how
> to cut the pipe off, and put a new top on, all while it is under
> pressure.
By getting very, very wet. :)
Any idea how much pressure? I wonder if one of those metal reinforced
rubber couplings would hold it... Probably would if you used a short
coupling (4" long or so) and seated the two pipes (old + new) so they
nearly met in the center (about 2" of coupling on each pipe).
Imagine that coupling already clamped on to the bottom of a Tee
assembly, a hose spigot on the top, and a 3" valve (irrigation gate
valve?) on the side. That will be your new top. Build it, and put a
temporary 3ft long (or longer) pipe on the outlet of the valve and open
the valve. I'd probably do it all out of PVC on top of the coupling.
Now with that all ready to clamp on to the old pipe, cut off the top of
the old pipe, put the new top in place (most of the water will naturally
flow out the long discharge pipe away from you) and clamp it on. Once
the connection is solid you can close the 3" valve and breathe again.
Oh, and the water may taste better after flushing it all out. I know
the water in my house tastes pretty bad after sitting in the iron pipes
for just a day or two.
Neon John
wrote:
> I'm not quite sure what I will do with the main well- it is a
>3" pipe with a T on the top, with a hose spigot installed in the T.
>It is old enough that the spigot is plugged (I thought it was going
>dry), but when I tried to remove it, the top of the pipe started to
>break- giving me a 20' stream of water. I'm trying to figure out how
>to cut the pipe off, and put a new top on, all while it is under
>pressure.
Wrap the pipe heavily with towels and then soak the towel with R134a (or
liquid nitrogen if you want to get fancy). After the water freezes a plug,
cut the pipe off and either thread the end or use one of those compression
patch things to splice a new line in.
The freeze plug is a standard industrial technique. I've seen 48" pipes
frozen to avoid draining a large system. I don't have a central cutoff valve
in my restaurant so turning the water off involves going to the meter and
hoping I can turn the main valve one more time with the T-wrench and a 6ft
cheater. I've used the freeze technique several times to avoid having to muck
with the meter valve. Works equally well on iron, copper or plastic, though
you have to be careful about plastic, as it gets very brittle. Easy to twist
in two.
BTW, you can take an ordinary vacuum thermos to the welding gas store and get
enough liquid nitrogen to do the job for pennies - maybe free if they don't
want to fool with the paperwork. It'll keep for a day or two in a good
thermos. Just don't tighten the lid :-)
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd (old)
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ (new)
Cleveland, Occupied TN
bill horne
I see no more reason to pull my pump to check it - or to replace the
iron pipe - any more than I see a reason to change my brake fluid
because I happen to have the hood open, and the car jacked up a bit.
The old-timers around here say that unless lightning gets it, well pumps
in this area usually last 30-40 years. Since they should know (there are
not many secrets in this community), and since my inlaws' pump is 36
years old, that's good enough for me.
And this is one case where I hope my actual experience - of pulling and
replacing pumps and pipe - remains at nearly zero. If I get experience
with it, I'm either unlucky, or I'm doing something wrong. I'm sorry you
have so much experience - unless it was with somebody else's wells.
Will Sill
>I see no more reason to pull my pump to check it - or to replace the
>iron pipe - any more than I see a reason to change my brake fluid
>because I happen to have the hood open, and the car jacked up a bit.
>The old-timers around here say that unless lightning gets it, well pumps
>in this area usually last 30-40 years. Since they should know (there are
>not many secrets in this community), and since my inlaws' pump is 36
>years old, that's good enough for me.
>
>And this is one case where I hope my actual experience - of pulling and
>replacing pumps and pipe - remains at nearly zero. If I get experience
>with it, I'm either unlucky, or I'm doing something wrong. I'm sorry you
>have so much experience - unless it was with somebody else's wells.
As usual, your logic is impeccable. But you expressed concern about
the "water table" drifting outa reach, and now you have a raft of good
& bad information to draw on in case disaster strikes in spite of your
personal good luck. I'm sorry I have had so much experience, too!
Will KD3XR
bill horne
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:14:12 -0400, bill horne <red...@rye.net> wrote:
> > I don't think I have that problem yet. A stopwatch and a bucket tells me
> > I'm pumping about 11 gpm through 4' of 5/8" garden hose attached to a
> > faucet on my 1" well pipe. It's been down 17 years.
>
> Don't touch it. You are already on borrowed time.
When I was middle-aged, I didn't think I was on borrowed time.
> > My in-law's pump has been down since 1966, and it's still working.
>
> Must be in a very nice environment down there.
Must be. The natives tell me that the usual life of pumps around here is
30-40 years. Barring lightning.
> >> No Brake Fluid present, either.
> >
> > There's your problem - pour some BF in there periodically, and it won't
> > rust.
>
> Don't you mean ATF? BF is hygroscopic...
>
> :)
>
> sdb
That's the very reason I said BF. If it sucks up the water, the pipes
won't rust.
And speaking of pipe, the owner of the country store here told me that
about 10 years ago, a shallow well up the road was replaced with a deep
well. The old well pipe was wood. I'd sure like to see a piece of that.
I'll bet a Dog it was cypress - and maybe even handmade.
bill horne
Right, and I appreciate all the input the thread generated.
But I still have this nagging desire to know where the top of the water
is. If I'm unable to permanently suppress that desire, I'm going to
seriously ponder a suggestion I got by email - put a heavy sinker on the
string, coat about 30 feet of the string with blue carpenter's (marking)
chalk, and drop it down the well until it hits the pump.
I've already tested the chalk-on-a-string in a mayonaisse jar of water,
and that works great for showing water level. The only thing that's
preventing me from jumping down the well with it is the possible
ramifications of the thing getting permanently stuck in the well. But if
I hear of one more well pumping air in this area, I'm probably going to
say to hell with the ramifications, and do it anyway. Meanwhile, I'll
probably just continue to dither.
Frederick
"Chris Bryant" <Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:l28cmu0eehgameua0...@4ax.com...
Smelly water from a well is almost certainly Hydrogen Suphide, which is
difficult to remove if it is in high concentrations. I have it in my well
and I tried a variety of ion exchange methods before I finally installed a
chlorination system The chlorine reacts with the hydrogen sulphide and
breaks it down so that it can be removed by a sand filter. Now you are left
with the residual chlorine, necessary to ensure that all the Hydrogen
Sulphide is removed. We use a charcoal filter at a special faucet and the
water from it is excellent. You have to maintain the bleach reservoir topped
up but a 15 gallon diluted 25/75 bleach to water will last several weeks.
The whole installation cost me about $500 about ten years ago because I
designed and built it myself. Not difficult. Culligan wanted $3000 and when
I inquired I found they were using the same components as I did, available
from W Grainger..
Frederick
Barrie Brozenske
fyo...@lakefield.net says...
> Smelly water from a well is almost certainly Hydrogen Suphide, which is
> difficult to remove if it is in high concentrations.
>
installed a reverse osmosis purifier years ago (BIG bucks). It works
great though, and I always make it a point to top off my tanks when we
visit him; it's the best tasting water for many many miles....
Regards,
Barrie