Fast all-weather tyres
felix
resistance and dry grip together with good performance and puncture
protection in wet cold winter conditions?
I would like to fit them to a bike which I will use for fast road training
during the summer, then fit mudguards and use as a winter bike.
Initially I was looking at Continental Ultra Gator Skins, but a visit to
the Continental website suggests their grip and rolling resistance is quite
poor. The Conti Grand Prix Season sounds good on paper, but is quite
expensive, has anyone any experience of this tyre? I am also considering the
Michelin Axial Bisport, any opinions or recommendations would be most
welcome.
TIA
alex wetmore
> Can anyone recommend 700C road tyres which combine both low rolling
> resistance and dry grip together with good performance and puncture
> protection in wet cold winter conditions?
I use the Avocet Fasgrip tires in these conditions year round in Seattle.
I prefer the ones without the kevlar belt. I don't notice any difference
in the number of flats that I get either way (typically one every thousand
miles or so) and the kevlar belt increases the cost and rolling resistance.
alex
Pete Biggs
"felix" <fe...@euro.net> wrote in message
news:n0qO8.7485$VP6.581994@stones...
> Can anyone recommend 700C road tyres which combine both low rolling
> resistance and dry grip together with good performance and puncture
> protection in wet cold winter conditions?
I seriously beleive there's no such thing - especially not ones which will
last a whole year. A high performance tyre will not provide truly high
puncture pretection (especially in the wet), and vice versa. Some people
will be lucky and ride on skinny thin racing tyres and cover thousands of
miles without a single puncture, but that's what it is: LUCK (and also
where/how you ride). In the main, high performance tyres puncture and cut
relatively easily.
> I would like to fit them to a bike which I will use for fast road training
> during the summer, then fit mudguards and use as a winter bike.
The answer, imo, is to use different tyres in the summer. Alternatively,
you could use compromise tyres, which would also be more economical, but
won't be as fast and smooth.
> Initially I was looking at Continental Ultra Gator Skins, but a visit to
> the Continental website suggests their grip and rolling resistance is
quite
> poor. The Conti Grand Prix Season sounds good on paper, but is quite
> expensive, has anyone any experience of this tyre? I am also considering
the
> Michelin Axial Bisport, any opinions or recommendations would be most
> welcome.
Conti have more than their fair share of sidewall failures. That's been
enough to put me off them so far.
My favourite tyre is still the Vittoria Open Corsa 23. Not cheap, doesn't
last very long, but has very low rr, yet it's practical in that it's wider
than other 23's (actually 24 to 24.5mm - so it's relatively comfy and has
lots of grip) and has very strong casing & sidewalls (290 threads per inch -
more than any other tyre). Puncture resistance is reasonable considering how
thin it is (I use them in London - over lots of glass!). I've done a lot of
searching around for alternatives, but there's nothing else quite like it.
For a start, most "top" tyres are narrower - or wider if you go for "25"
versions.
There is an all weather version with thicker thread but it's only
available in 22mm.
However, mid-range (and cheap) tyres tend to have more rubber so will last
longer. If cost is a main concern, avoid top-end "race" tyres.
If concerned about punctures/durability in winter/wet, I would go for
something like one of the Schwalbes.
--
~PB pL...@biggs.tc {remove fruit}
The Pomeranian
The Conti GranPrixs are good. Sometimes they tend to get sidewall cuts,
but the main tread is very puncture resistant on the other hand. IMO,
it balances out.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Can anyone recommend 700C road tyres which combine both low rolling
>> resistance and dry grip together with good performance and puncture
>> protection in wet cold winter conditions?
> I seriously beleive there's no such thing - especially not ones
> which will last a whole year.
Hold it. I've got a set of wheels with ten year old tires that are
still in good condition. On the other hand, I use up Avocet "Road"
tires at about 3000-3500 miles. Time is not the measure of tire life.
> A high performance tyre will not provide truly high puncture
> pretection (especially in the wet), and vice versa.
Puncture resistance is mainly a function of rider alertness to the
road. I find that people who find neither tools nor money on the road
also get more flats than average. Nothing but tread-casing-tube
thickness will protect against thorns because they pass easily through
mesh as well as rubber. Glass is another matter but it can also cut
through Kevlar as well as nylon. Bullet proof vests are made to stop
blunt objects, sharp tipped bullets penetrate excellently.
> Some people will be lucky and ride on skinny thin racing tyres and
> cover thousands of miles without a single puncture, but that's what
> it is: LUCK (and also where/how you ride). In the main, high
> performance tyres puncture and cut relatively easily.
There is some skill involved. I ride tires to the cords and they
don't get more flats at the end of their service than at the start.
This is like riding light weight tires and fearing flats. It isn't
so.
>> I would like to fit them to a bike which I will use for fast road
>> training during the summer, then fit mudguards and use as a winter
>> bike.
> The answer, imo, is to use different tyres in the summer.
> Alternatively, you could use compromise tyres, which would also be
> more economical, but won't be as fast and smooth.
What is it that you believe a tire should do in winter differently
than in summer? I hope you're not trying to exhume the smooth tire
thread, so to speak. Road test and lab tests have shown that smooth
tread performs better in all respects for pavement riding. That
includes wear life for equivalent tread thickness.
>> Initially I was looking at Continental Ultra Gator Skins, but a
>> visit to the Continental website suggests their grip and rolling
>> resistance is quite poor. The Conti Grand Prix Season sounds good
>> on paper, but is quite expensive, has anyone any experience of this
>> tyre? I am also considering the Michelin Axial Bisport, any
>> opinions or recommendations would be most welcome.
> Conti have more than their fair share of sidewall failures. That's
> been enough to put me off them so far.
How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black to
simulate carbon black. That is why I propose using Avocet "Road" or
"Criterium" tires. They have good wear and traction characteristics
and their list price is lower than others with exotic names and
colors.
Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
Guy Chapman
> I would like to fit them to a bike which I will use for fast road training
> during the summer, then fit mudguards and use as a winter bike.
Buy two pairs of tyres. I use Hutchinson Globetrotters 700 x 32C in the
winter and Hutchinson Excel 700 x 28C during the summer. The summer tyres
are much lighter and faster, but puncture more easily (despite Kevlar
bands). This is not much of a problem as you do less night riding in the
summer, so can avoid most of the crap on the roads.
There, that's my 2d worth.
--
Guy
Riding every day on a road near you (provided you live near Reading,
England).
(remove maker of Spam to reply)
Neil K.
<lifti...@smellslikeakennel.com> writes
I use the Ultragators and they did me proud all through last winter,
good puncture resistance and grip. I had a puncture two weeks ago which
was my first since January and I ride on some pretty poor roads. If you
really wanted super duper performance you could spend the extra twenty
quid on the Grand Prix4 Season, my mate wins races every week on his.
--
scottw44
used these sooner. Great in the Florida slop, and on dry pavement as well.
I feel like I am on a magic arpet, the ride is so plush.
good luck,
scott
--
reply to:
"felix" <fe...@euro.net> wrote in message
news:n0qO8.7485$VP6.581994@stones...
Luigi de Guzman
Old or New pennies, guy?
*grin*
-Luigi
2 and six
Mark Janeba
> I find that people who find neither tools nor money on the road
> also get more flats than average.
I find tools often enough, but never money (darn). Must be a Silicon
Valley thing. Where I've lived, people may be loose with their tools,
but never their cash.
Oh, and I don't flat too often either.
--
Mark Janeba
remove antispam phrase in address to reply
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I love the Vittoria Techno Pro and am now on my third set. I only
> wish I used these sooner. Great in the Florida slop, and on dry
> pavement as well. I feel like I am on a magic arpet, the ride is so
> plush.
I often hear about "smooth" or "high traction" ride and the like. How
do you determine that the ride is any different from another brand of
tire of the same cross section? What does this tire have that invokes
a magic carpet.
Benjamin Lewis
> Scottw 44? writes:
>
> > I love the Vittoria Techno Pro and am now on my third set. I only
> > wish I used these sooner. Great in the Florida slop, and on dry
> > pavement as well. I feel like I am on a magic arpet, the ride is so
> > plush.
>
> I often hear about "smooth" or "high traction" ride and the like. How
> do you determine that the ride is any different from another brand of
> tire of the same cross section? What does this tire have that invokes
> a magic carpet.
My tires have a kind of subtle oak feel, with nuances of peach and beef
gravy. When cornering there are hints of horsehair and lime.
--
Benjamin Lewis
3rd Law of Computing:
Anything that can go wr
fortune: Segmentation violation -- Core dumped
Matt Temple
>
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> > I find that people who find neither tools nor money on the road
> > also get more flats than average.
And while they're not finding those tools, they ride into
potholes and disappear like Brigadoon.
How do people manage to lose so many sets of pliers?
Matt Temple
--
=============================================================
Matthew Temple Tel: 617/632-2597
Director, Research Computing Fax: 617/632-4012
Dana-Farber Cancer Institute m...@research.dfci.harvard.edu
44 Binney Street, JF 314 http://research.dfci.harvard.edu
Boston, MA 02115 Choice is the Choice!
Mike Jacoubowsky
you go for a more durable tire for the winter, the casing's going to be
heavier and stiffer, giving a rougher ride. You'd probably also want to go
for a wider tire for more traction in the wet (but still a smooth, or
relatively-smooth tread, since bike tires don't hydroplane and you want as
much rubber on the road as possible).
For my rain bike, I run Conti GP 4-season tires, 70x25. Good traction in
the mucky stuff, and enough extra protection on the sidewalls that they
don't get easily sliced & diced. Also, the 25c width still gives a
reasonable ride, even though the casing is considerably stiffer. For my
other bike, I run either 23c Conti GP3000s or Bontrager Race X-Lites
(basically a private-label GP3000).
By the way, I haven't heard anyone complain about the traction of the Ultra
Gator Skin, and Jobst would certainly approve of its non-silica tread!
Around here, that's a commonly-used tire for commuting on.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReaction.com
"felix" <fe...@euro.net> wrote in message
news:n0qO8.7485$VP6.581994@stones...
Pete Biggs
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:APrO8.13191$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Pete Biggs writes:
>
> > A high performance tyre will not provide truly high puncture
> > pretection (especially in the wet), and vice versa.
>
> Puncture resistance is mainly a function of rider alertness to the
> road. I find that people who find neither tools nor money on the road
> also get more flats than average.
I did mention "how you ride" and that includes riding well out from the side
of the road when there's likely to be plenty of debris about. This does make
a big difference, I'm sure. I used to get far more punctures when I was a
timid newbie riding in the gutter. But there is plenty of luck involved as
well. You can't possibly spot every piece of glass on the road, especially
when riding in town - and can't always avoid it on busy roads even when it
is spotted.
Admittedly, I've yet to find a duffle bag stuffed with 50 quid notes, but I
do keep my eyes peeled. But I really should start picking up the odd gloves
I see. Eventually, I could make up pairs from them!
> Nothing but tread-casing-tube
> thickness will protect against thorns because they pass easily through
> mesh as well as rubber. Glass is another matter but it can also cut
> through Kevlar as well as nylon. Bullet proof vests are made to stop
> blunt objects, sharp tipped bullets penetrate excellently.
> > Some people will be lucky and ride on skinny thin racing tyres and
> > cover thousands of miles without a single puncture, but that's what
> > it is: LUCK (and also where/how you ride). In the main, high
> > performance tyres puncture and cut relatively easily.
>
> There is some skill involved. I ride tires to the cords and they
> don't get more flats at the end of their service than at the start.
> This is like riding light weight tires and fearing flats. It isn't
> so.
Surely a thin tyre will puncture more often than a tyre which is thick
enough that the small shards of glass can not penetrate through to the tube.
I do get more flats with light weight tyres (although not enough to really
upset me). Many of the punctures I get with my Vittorias are caused by
shards of glass which are smaller than 3mm.
> >> I would like to fit them to a bike which I will use for fast road
> >> training during the summer, then fit mudguards and use as a winter
> >> bike.
>
> > The answer, imo, is to use different tyres in the summer.
> > Alternatively, you could use compromise tyres, which would also be
> > more economical, but won't be as fast and smooth.
>
> What is it that you believe a tire should do in winter differently
> than in summer? I hope you're not trying to exhume the smooth tire
> thread, so to speak. Road test and lab tests have shown that smooth
> tread performs better in all respects for pavement riding. That
> includes wear life for equivalent tread thickness.
No, I'm not thinking of "treaded" tyres, specifically. I mean it makes more
sense to use a tyre with more depth of rubber in the (British) winter, where
we do much more riding on wet roads. In my experience, tyres are more
vulnerable to cuts and punctures in the wet. Rain washes debris from the
edge and middle of the road into the carriageway, and I think water helps
lubricate glass into the tyre [?]. A thicker tyre will not puncture so often
and will survive cuts that would otherwise ruin a lightweight tyre.
Unfortunately though, there aren't too many thick truly slick tyres
availiable.
Plus, it's more unpleasant to fix flats in the winter; and in the summer,
many of us are riding harder and faster, and doing more fun riding, etc, so
high-performance tyres are more worthwhile at this time of year.
Tim McNamara
1000's because they're readiy available in the 700 x 28 size and cheap.
I notice no difference in ride comfort, rolling resistance, etc compared
to the higher priced Conti's in the same size. I have a set of Ritchey
Tom Slick 700 x 25 (which are accurately labelled on a MA2 rim) tires
which are fine. Seem to be the same tire as the Avocets but with a
decorative tread pattern.
For trail riding I use the above or Ritchey SpeedMax 700 x 28 'cross
tires. Same if I ride on snow which is pretty rarely, too dangerous on
city streets with the out-of-control SUV drivers talking on a cell phone
and drinking a latte. There's several nice trails for snow rides in the
winter, though.
IMHO you only benefit from tread if the surface is softer than the
rubber.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> A high performance tyre will not provide truly high puncture
>>> pretection (especially in the wet), and vice versa.
>> Puncture resistance is mainly a function of rider alertness to the
>> road. I find that people who find neither tools nor money on the
>> road also get more flats than average.
> I did mention "how you ride" and that includes riding well out from
> the side of the road when there's likely to be plenty of debris
> about. This does make a big difference, I'm sure. I used to get
> far more punctures when I was a timid newbie riding in the gutter.
> But there is plenty of luck involved as well. You can't possibly
> spot every piece of glass on the road, especially when riding in
> town - and can't always avoid it on busy roads even when it is
> spotted.
I don't believe that is the solution unless your street is a bottle
dump. Riding in the middle of the traffic lane is what supports the
inconsiderate bicycle road user in the eyes of the driving public. I
find keeping an eye on what lies ahead sufficient in all the places I
have ridden. Your scenario paints a mind's picture that may be
believable for those who can't recognize tire hazards at a glance but
it isn't true to reality.
>> Nothing but tread-casing-tube thickness will protect against thorns
>> because they pass easily through mesh as well as rubber. Glass is
>> another matter but it can also cut through Kevlar as well as nylon.
>> Bullet proof vests are made to stop blunt objects, sharp tipped
>> bullets penetrate excellently.
>>> Some people will be lucky and ride on skinny thin racing tyres and
>>> cover thousands of miles without a single puncture, but that's
>>> what it is: LUCK (and also where/how you ride). In the main, high
>>> performance tyres puncture and cut relatively easily.
>> There is some skill involved. I ride tires to the cords and they
>> don't get more flats at the end of their service than at the start.
>> This is like riding light weight tires and fearing flats. It isn't
>> so.
> Surely a thin tyre will puncture more often than a tyre which is
> thick enough that the small shards of glass can not penetrate
> through to the tube. I do get more flats with light weight tyres
> (although not enough to really upset me). Many of the punctures I
> get with my Vittorias are caused by shards of glass which are
> smaller than 3mm.
As I said, I ride my tires to the cords at which point they are thin
as paper yet do not have an increase in occurrence of flats. When you
hit a sharp object it goes into the tire, if you avoid them they
don't. I recall from the days of tubulars that we rode some super
thin tires on trails and city streets alike without fear of more
flats, only that they wore out too fast.
>>> The answer, imo, is to use different tyres in the summer.
>>> Alternatively, you could use compromise tyres, which would also be
>>> more economical, but won't be as fast and smooth.
>> What is it that you believe a tire should do in winter differently
>> than in summer? I hope you're not trying to exhume the smooth tire
>> thread, so to speak. Road test and lab tests have shown that
>> smooth tread performs better in all respects for pavement riding.
>> That includes wear life for equivalent tread thickness.
> No, I'm not thinking of "treaded" tyres, specifically. I mean it
> makes more sense to use a tyre with more depth of rubber in the
> (British) winter, where we do much more riding on wet roads. In my
> experience, tyres are more vulnerable to cuts and punctures in the
> wet. Rain washes debris from the edge and middle of the road into
> the carriageway, and I think water helps lubricate glass into the
> tyre [?]. A thicker tyre will not puncture so often and will
> survive cuts that would otherwise ruin a lightweight tyre.
> Unfortunately though, there aren't too many thick truly slick tyres
> availiable.
I think you have cause and effect disconnected here. Wet glass cannot
be seen because it looks like any piece of grave, its identifying
sheen being hidden by a meniscus of water. Beyond that, wet glass
cuts amazingly better than dry glass. To witness this, try cutting
through a latex rubber hose with a razor blade without "sawing". You
will find that it is not possible dry without great effort.
> Plus, it's more unpleasant to fix flats in the winter; and in the
> summer, many of us are riding harder and faster, and doing more fun
> riding, etc, so high-performance tyres are more worthwhile at this
> time of year.
Winter is winter. British rain and snow is no different than
elsewhere. The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
usually is without merit. Just because your area has consistently
foul weather doesn't make much difference except to the comfort of the
populace. Tires don't give a damn how long it's been wet, only how
much wet glass they encounter.
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.7.html
Fabrizio Mazzoleni
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message ...
>> As I said, I ride my tires to the cords at which point they are thin
>> as paper
So I guess it goes without saying you never lay the bike over and
dive into corners if you are riding with totally shot and worn-out tires.
Just out of curiosity, you have progressed from steel rims to aluminium
haven't you?
Pete Biggs
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:kPyO8.13331$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Pete Biggs writes:
>
> > I did mention "how you ride" and that includes riding well out from
> > the side of the road when there's likely to be plenty of debris
> > about. This does make a big difference, I'm sure. I used to get
> > far more punctures when I was a timid newbie riding in the gutter.
>
The alternative is to ride through a load of crap and get more punctures.
> unless your street is a bottle
> dump.
Been down the Kingsland High Road? :-) ...........
I ride in London, England, and the surrounding areas. Sadly, our national
sport is breaking bottles on the roads and sidewalks. There's a hell of a
lot of broken glass around in this crowded country. [Note. The original
poster cross-posted to uk.rec.cycling, so I presume he is British]. I'm not
saying it's necessarily worse here to anywhere else (same with winters), I'm
just telling what I know.
> Riding in the middle of the traffic lane is what supports the
> inconsiderate bicycle road user in the eyes of the driving public.
Riding a few feet out from the edge is all I meant. That's not necessarily
bang in the middle of the lane, although I do advocate "taking the lane"
when in dangerous and very busy situations - it's a life saver - but that's
another subject. BTW, I actually get more respect from drivers when I'm
assertive and brisk in difficult situations and momentarily holding up a
driver, than when doddering along hesitantly, leaving overtaking room.
> I find keeping an eye on what lies ahead sufficient in all the places I
> have ridden.
Sufficient for what exactly?
No-one can see every piece of glass, especially when it's wet. Tiny
fragments remain on the roads long after the majority of the broken bottle
(or whatever) has blown/been swept away. And as I said, it can not always be
avoided anyway (especially in urban situations) unless one is watching out
so carefully as to be ludicrous, ie. riding very slowly indeed, *staring* at
the road the *whole* time - which would be dangerous as well as being
extremely tedius. And even then, glass fragments can be too small to see
from a bike at all, again, especially when it is wet.
> Your scenario paints a mind's picture that may be
> believable for those who can't recognize tire hazards at a glance but
> it isn't true to reality.
Your scenario seems like a fantasy to me - one which requires incredible
eyesight and incredibly careful riding, or incredibly clean roads, and
super-tough tyres (which your Avocet ones may well be).
Of course, we all can recognise the worst hazards, and a great deal of my
attention does indeed go into scanning the road surface, but many of my
punctures (even out in the country) come from stuff I could not have
possibly spotted or avoided in advance, at least not without drastically
reducing my speed (to say 8 mph) or using different roads altogether.
> > Surely a thin tyre will puncture more often than a tyre which is
> > thick enough that the small shards of glass can not penetrate
> > through to the tube. I do get more flats with light weight tyres
> > (although not enough to really upset me). Many of the punctures I
> > get with my Vittorias are caused by shards of glass which are
> > smaller than 3mm.
>
> As I said, I ride my tires to the cords at which point they are thin
> as paper yet do not have an increase in occurrence of flats.
They must have been very thin in the first place. The relevant point is that
tyres which have tread which is thicker than 3mm must be more puncture and
cut resitant than thinner tyres. Cuts are even more important. Thin tyres
are more likely it is to get ruined. Incidentally, my Vittoria tyres have
suffered more as they have worn.
> > No, I'm not thinking of "treaded" tyres, specifically. I mean it
> > makes more sense to use a tyre with more depth of rubber in the
> > (British) winter, where we do much more riding on wet roads. In my
> > experience, tyres are more vulnerable to cuts and punctures in the
> > wet. Rain washes debris from the edge and middle of the road into
> > the carriageway, and I think water helps lubricate glass into the
> > tyre [?]. A thicker tyre will not puncture so often and will
> > survive cuts that would otherwise ruin a lightweight tyre.
> > Unfortunately though, there aren't too many thick truly slick tyres
> > availiable.
>
> I think you have cause and effect disconnected here.
I don't think so, I just made several different points in the same
paragraph. By "surviving cuts" I mean that a thicker tyre will still get
cut, but the cut won't go all the way through.
> Wet glass cannot
> be seen because it looks like any piece of grave, its identifying
> sheen being hidden by a meniscus of water.
Yes, so how can it be avoided if it can't be seen and the whole road is wet?
> Beyond that, wet glass
> cuts amazingly better than dry glass. To witness this, try cutting
> through a latex rubber hose with a razor blade without "sawing". You
> will find that it is not possible dry without great effort.
That's exactly what I thought. So tyres get cut more easily in wet
conditions, right? So surely, if they're going to get cut, it makes sense to
use tyres which can withstand those cuts.
> > Plus, it's more unpleasant to fix flats in the winter; and in the
> > summer, many of us are riding harder and faster, and doing more fun
> > riding, etc, so high-performance tyres are more worthwhile at this
> > time of year.
>
> Winter is winter. British rain and snow is no different than
> elsewhere. The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> usually is without merit.
Ah, different countries (and parts of countries) don't have more rainfall
than others?
I didn't say we have a different sort of rain, we just have more of it than
some other places!
> Just because your area has consistently
> foul weather doesn't make much difference except to the comfort of the
> populace.
You think we like being depressed? :-) ...Could be right, actually (not me,
though).
> Tires don't give a damn how long it's been wet, only how
> much wet glass they encounter.
If the roads are wet, then there's more wet glass around. In winter, when it
rains in the morning, the roads are often still wet in the afternoon.
There's more risk to tyres overall in the winter, therefore it makes sense
to use more puncture resistant tyres then.
This is all pretty simple stuff. I think you must be deliberately
misunderstanding me and winding me up. I agree with you up to the point that
people fear thin tyres too much, but to expect EVERYONE to use them all the
time, everywhere (on-road), is bizarre.
Dave Brichler
> resistance and dry grip together with good performance and puncture
> protection in wet cold winter conditions?
...what Jobst said about puncture protection. As for a tire
suggestion, take a look at Ritchey's Tom Mix. I can't quote you specs
off the top, but they roll nicely on the dry, and feel solid &
sure-footed in the wet -- including hard cornering. I like 'em
anyway.
Best,
Dave
scottw44
Vittorias I stopped this thought process. The tires just seem to roll
smoother and absorb road vibrations better. I hads been using Conti GP
3000's and then tried Vredstein Fortezza.
All I know is I like the way the Vittorias feel, and have recommended them
to several friends who also rave.
As to the oroginal thread...these things really bite down on wet
pavement...I feel quite confident with them.
scott
--
reply to:
www.itravelinsured.com
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:hdvO8.13271$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
scottw44
--
reply to:
www.itravelinsured.com
"Benjamin Lewis" <bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:yy7ok7p1...@marge.cs.sfu.ca...
Robin Hubert
>
> How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black to
> simulate carbon black. That is why I propose using Avocet "Road" or
> "Criterium" tires. They have good wear and traction characteristics
> and their list price is lower than others with exotic names and
> colors.
Not since they've redesigned to be "fashionable". The folders, at
least, are well into the $40 range. 95% of my customers buy folding
tires because they are (over-)hyped on the rotating weight concept.
So, Avocet changed the sidewall to compete with more popular tires,
and raised their prices. I could hardly ever convince someone to use
these tires, though I try all the time, and now they make the choice
equally difficult. Who're they gonna believe anyway, some dude in a
bike shop or the ever-present Michelin ads?
Graham Elliott
Nobody mentioned Michelin tyres, I hope I don't get shot down for
reccomending them. I've been using axial-pros for a couple of years now and
they have been good on the puncture side, admittedly they don't last for
ever but then what does ? I've previosly used both Continentals and
Vittorias and I would agree that the Vittorias are very smooth, used with
Vittoria Latex inner tubes they are almost like having suspension. The
Continental tyres were fast but felt a bit slippy imo. If Felix is looking
at Michelins then miss out the Bisport and go for the Supercomp, that is if
you don't get the Axial-Pros.
Graham
Per D. Sørensen
>
<snip>
>
> Winter is winter.
Some people have it all year...
http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/eu/Norway/SvalbardENSB.html
Per D. Sørensen
--
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die"
Abdul Alhazred
Per D. Sørensen
>
>
> How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black to
> simulate carbon black.
What tires are colored black to simulate carbon?
Peter Cole
news:aedbeq$285$0...@216.39.149.189...
The new ones have become rather expensive. I've been a long-time user of
Avocets, but I find IRC "Road Winners" quite similar at $15@, that's with the
Kevlar belt, I wish they had a version without it.
Matt O'Toole
"Per D. Sørensen" <s6...@ii.uib.no> wrote in message
news:3D0CE274...@ii.uib.no...
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black to
> > simulate carbon black.
>
> What tires are colored black to simulate carbon?
I don't know this for sure, but I would guess that any tire offered in a
non-carbon version is probably carbonless in the black color too.
Matt O.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Winter is winter.
> Some people have it all year...
> http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/eu/Norway/SvalbardENSB.html
To make upfor that, here is a sample of weather in the SF area.
http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/mthamilton/public/hamcam/
On the other hand, you can encounter snow any day of the year in the alps:
http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f100.html
http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html
Pictures from late July.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> How about not buying colored tires or ones that are colored black
>> to simulate carbon black.
> What tires are colored black to simulate carbon?
Most tires that are available in colors are not carbon black even when
all black. That covers nearly all tires that do not specifically
state they have carbon compound treads.
W K
Pete Biggs <pL...@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:aeenbq$6h84l$1...@ID-144931.news.dfncis.de...
>
> <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> > unless your street is a bottle
> > dump.
>
> Been down the Kingsland High Road? :-) ...........
No, I cycle through Salford.
> I ride in London, England, and the surrounding areas. Sadly, our national
> sport is breaking bottles on the roads and sidewalks.
Cannot be underestimated (its mainly 12-18 year olds BTW)
I have used fairly low cost tyres over about 800 miles in these conditions
and it has small gashes almost every inch around the tyre.
> > Winter is winter. British rain and snow is no different than
> > elsewhere. The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> > usually is without merit.
>
> Ah, different countries (and parts of countries) don't have more rainfall
> than others?
> I didn't say we have a different sort of rain, we just have more of it
than
> some other places!
The climatic conditions make it often cool and damp but ice and esp. snow is
not usually on the roads.
Perfect puncture conditions for many many months of the year.
R. Himm
<bill...@wire2.com> wrote:
> Pete Biggs <pL...@biggs.tc> wrote in message
> news:aeenbq$6h84l$1...@ID-144931.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
>
> > > The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> > > usually is without merit.
Handy English translation:
The places that have unusually bad weather conditions are exceptional.
Benjamin Lewis
> > > <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> > > > The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> > > > usually is without merit.
>
> Handy English translation:
>
> The places that have unusually bad weather conditions are exceptional.
This doesn't quite mean the same thing, though. You'd have to add "and
among the other places, none have worse weather conditions than any of the
others".
--
Benjamin Lewis
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Alex Rodriguez
says...
>I find tools often enough, but never money (darn). Must be a Silicon
>Valley thing. Where I've lived, people may be loose with their tools,
>but never their cash.
I haven't found money either. My most recent find was a leather cell
phone case. Looks new too.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)
Ted Shwartz
American"...
The presence of water helps extend the propogation of cracks in glass.
Maybe we get more flats after/during rain storms because all those shards
out there have new and sharper edges...
Ted Shwartz
South Dartmouth, MA
Benjamin Weiner
> Per D. Sørensen writes:
> >> Winter is winter.
> > Some people have it all year...
> > http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/eu/Norway/SvalbardENSB.html
> To make upfor that, here is a sample of weather in the SF area.
> http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/mthamilton/public/hamcam/
Jobst is following the long tradition of California boosterism
which dupes naive people into moving out here believing all sorts
of stories about the beautiful weather, agrarian paradise,
and so on. In reality, the Bay Area weather looks like this:
http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/mthamilton/public/snowpics/snowpics.html
> On the other hand, you can encounter snow any day of the year in the alps:
> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f100.html
> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html
> Pictures from late July.
The first picture is especially spectacular.
Thanks for getting all of these up on the Web.
Ben
(does not live on Mt Hamilton)
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> Winter is winter.
>>> Some people have it all year...
>>> http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/eu/Norway/SvalbardENSB.html
>> To make up for that, here is a sample of weather in the SF area.
>> http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/mthamilton/public/hamcam/
> Jobst is following the long tradition of California boosterism
> which dupes naive people into moving out here believing all sorts
> of stories about the beautiful weather, agrarian paradise,
> and so on. In reality, the Bay Area weather looks like this:
> http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/mthamilton/public/snowpics/snowpics.html
As you see, this is atop Mt Hamilton that gets snow most years but not
like that in the pictures that deserved a special web site for. The
"hamcam" view is more the norm most of the year.
>> On the other hand, you can encounter snow any day of the year in the alps:
>> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f100.html
>> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html
>> Pictures from late July.
> The first picture is especially spectacular.
> Thanks for getting all of these up on the Web.
Yes, I enjoy seeing these places again and under all sorts of
circumstances. The snowing picture was a great event because we were
warm from climbing and at the summit, I changed to a second set of
(dry) shorts and jersey, put on my lined parka and rolled down to Val
d'Isere toasty comfortable. I know how Andy Hampsten felt when he
descended the Gavia to Bormio with dry clothes and heavy gloves to win
the Giro d'Italia. I've tried it sweaty wet and it's damn cold.
R. Himm
<bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, June 17 at 13:03 no...@none.none (R. Himm) wrote:
>
> > > > <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> > > > > The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> > > > > usually is without merit.
> >
> > Handy English translation:
> >
> > The places that have unusually bad weather conditions are exceptional.
>
> This doesn't quite mean the same thing, though. You'd have to add "and
> among the other places, none have worse weather conditions than any of the
> others".
You're right, I can do better:
The places with unusual weather are unusual, and the places with the usual
weather conditions are the usual.
Benjamin Lewis
It still doesn't mean the same thing. There are many places with
*different* weather, but which do not have *worse* weather than each other.
These places may not have *usual* weather, either, unless you redefine
"usual" to mean "not unusually bad".
What was wrong with the original statement, anyway?
W K
> What was wrong with the original statement, anyway?
Mr. Brandt telling people from Nevada to Norway that when people say their
weather has worse features than elsewhere it is usually without merit.
R. Himm
<bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, June 17 at 22:27 no...@none.none (R. Himm) wrote:
>
> > In article <yy7olm9d...@css.css.sfu.ca>, Benjamin Lewis
> > <bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, June 17 at 13:03 no...@none.none (R. Himm) wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> > > > > > > The idea that conditions are worse one place than another
> > > > > > > usually is without merit.
> > > >
> > > > Handy English translation:
> > > >
> > > > The places that have unusually bad weather conditions are exceptional.
> > >
> > > This doesn't quite mean the same thing, though. You'd have to add "and
> > > among the other places, none have worse weather conditions than any of the
> > > others".
> >
> > You're right, I can do better:
> >
> > The places with unusual weather are unusual, and the places with the usual
> > weather conditions are the usual.
>
> It still doesn't mean the same thing. There are many places with
> *different* weather, but which do not have *worse* weather than each other.
> These places may not have *usual* weather, either, unless you redefine
> "usual" to mean "not unusually bad".
You're right, I can do better:
The places with unusually extreme weather conditions are unusual, and the
places with the usual range of weather conditions are the usual.
> What was wrong with the original statement, anyway?
If any of the above translations have any merit at all to you, you'll
appreciate the reason.
R. Himm
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> As I said, I ride my tires to the cords at which point they are thin
> as paper yet do not have an increase in occurrence of flats. When you
> hit a sharp object it goes into the tire, if you avoid them they
> don't. I recall from the days of tubulars that we rode some super
> thin tires on trails and city streets alike without fear of more
> flats, only that they wore out too fast.
Sure, you have much experience riding thin tires to the cords and you know
your puncture rate, which amazingly is invariant, but since you would never
deign to ride a THICK heavy touring tire, like a Continental Top Touring,
there's not much validity to your generalization. If you insist
specifically there is no difference in flat tendency between a TT, one of
your Avocet/IRC tires, and a track tubular, well, you are just trolling.
W K
R. Himm <no...@none.none> wrote in message
news:none-ya02358000...@news.globetrotter.net...
Oh.
Seems we are on entirely different wavelengths (or rubber thickness).
I went round one of my tyres last year after a puncture, picking out all the
pieces of glass with fine pliers.
I found about 10 dagger shaped shards in the 1-2mm range and one(!) at about
3mm length.
I'd rather have a slower bike and 10x less punctures.
R. Himm
<bill...@wire2.com> wrote:
> I went round one of my tyres last year after a puncture, picking out all the
> pieces of glass with fine pliers.
> I found about 10 dagger shaped shards in the 1-2mm range and one(!) at about
> 3mm length.
>
> I'd rather have a slower bike and 10x less punctures.
Besides tread thickness, there is one other concept for such tires that
seems interesting but I won't have occasion to try for some while: Vittoria
Randonneur and Randonneur Pros are supposed to have a belt of what they
call "hard rubber" under the tread, i.e. something that would not allow
e.g. a thorn or staple to penetrate as it would through the cords of a
nylon or Kevlar belt, if it worked. Don't know whether it is supposed to be
any better for glass or not. These tires are similar in intended use and
weight to Top Tourings.
zeldabee
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can encounter snow any day of the year in the
> > alps:
>
> > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f100.html
> > http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/f83.html
>
> > Pictures from late July.
>
> The first picture is especially spectacular.
> Thanks for getting all of these up on the Web.
They're fantastic photos. I've just killed a half an hour looking at them,
and I'm sure I will again.
--
z e l d a b e e @ p a n i x . c o m http://NewsReader.Com/
Tim Hall
ITYM "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain."
Tim
--
I understand very little of what's being discussed
but for some reason it's fascinating.
(Jon Thompson, urs)
Mark M
news:none-ya02358000...@news.globetrotter.net...
What if that last "usual" was replaced with "normal"?
> > What was wrong with the original statement, anyway?
>
> If any of the above translations have any merit at all to you, you'll
> appreciate the reason.
And then there was the time that Jobst insisted that all mud is the same.
"Mud is mud" IIRR.
Mark M
Benjamin Lewis
> You're right, I can do better:
>
> The places with unusually extreme weather conditions are unusual, and the
> places with the usual range of weather conditions are the usual.
I don't agree that there exists a "usual range of weather conditions"
shared by most places.
Are we accomplishing anything?
I didn't think so.
Benjamin Lewis
> Besides tread thickness, there is one other concept for such tires that
> seems interesting but I won't have occasion to try for some while: Vittoria
> Randonneur and Randonneur Pros are supposed to have a belt of what they
> call "hard rubber" under the tread, i.e. something that would not allow
> e.g. a thorn or staple to penetrate as it would through the cords of a
> nylon or Kevlar belt, if it worked. Don't know whether it is supposed to be
> any better for glass or not. These tires are similar in intended use and
> weight to Top Tourings.
I have a pair of Vittoria Randonneurs on my new touring bike. No complains
or flats with them so far, but I've only ridden about 500km on them. They
have reflective sidewalls, which seem a bit gimmicky to me, and cheesy
"water-displacement" grooves.
I'm not sure how to tell how good they are just by riding on them, though.
mhunt
> I don't think you're going to find one tire that does everything well. If
> you go for a more durable tire for the winter, the casing's going to be
> heavier and stiffer, giving a rougher ride. You'd probably also want to go
> for a wider tire for more traction in the wet (but still a smooth, or
> relatively-smooth tread, since bike tires don't hydroplane and you want as
> much rubber on the road as possible).
>
> For my rain bike, I run Conti GP 4-season tires, 70x25. Good traction in
> the mucky stuff, and enough extra protection on the sidewalls that they
> don't get easily sliced & diced. Also, the 25c width still gives a
> reasonable ride, even though the casing is considerably stiffer. For my
> other bike, I run either 23c Conti GP3000s or Bontrager Race X-Lites
> (basically a private-label GP3000).
>
> By the way, I haven't heard anyone complain about the traction of the Ultra
> Gator Skin, and Jobst would certainly approve of its non-silica tread!
> Around here, that's a commonly-used tire for commuting on.
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> http://www.ChainReaction.com
For training an commuting, I really like the Michellin Bisports
(cheaper and longer lasting than the Axial Race and Pro version) and I
also liek the Conti Ultra Gator Skins. I have put countless miles on
them and have not flatted (knock on wood), however, I don't flat much
anyway. Some of the specialized tires are also cheap and long lasting
as well.
For racing and whatnot, I do like the Michellins, however, I do think
I like the Vittoria's better, tho they do cost an arm and a leg.
marian
R. Himm
<m...@sink.drain> wrote:
> >
> > You're right, I can do better:
> >
> > The places with unusually extreme weather conditions are unusual, and the
> > places with the usual range of weather conditions are the usual.
>
> What if that last "usual" was replaced with "normal"?
Hallo MM, I hadn't noticed this was going to uk.rec.cycling too. Sure, I'll
go for it, as the "norm". It won't satisfy BL, but I think he's being too
literal.
R. Himm
<bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 18 at 05:21 no...@none.none (R. Himm) wrote:
>
> > You're right, I can do better:
> >
> > The places with unusually extreme weather conditions are unusual, and the
> > places with the usual range of weather conditions are the usual.
>
> I don't agree that there exists a "usual range of weather conditions"
> shared by most places.
>
> Are we accomplishing anything?
>
> I didn't think so.
Well, there's a subtext here that you are missing. Don't worry about it
though, after you've hung around for some while more, as I hope you will,
you'll see it soon enough.
R. Himm
<bcl...@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 18 at 05:57 no...@none.none (R. Himm) wrote:
>
> > Besides tread thickness, there is one other concept for such tires that
> > seems interesting but I won't have occasion to try for some while: Vittoria
> > Randonneur and Randonneur Pros are supposed to have a belt of what they
> > call "hard rubber" under the tread, i.e. something that would not allow
> > e.g. a thorn or staple to penetrate as it would through the cords of a
> > nylon or Kevlar belt, if it worked. Don't know whether it is supposed to be
> > any better for glass or not. These tires are similar in intended use and
> > weight to Top Tourings.
>
> I have a pair of Vittoria Randonneurs on my new touring bike. No complains
> or flats with them so far, but I've only ridden about 500km on them. They
> have reflective sidewalls, which seem a bit gimmicky to me, and cheesy
> "water-displacement" grooves.
>
> I'm not sure how to tell how good they are just by riding on them, though.
I would say if nothing about them stands out to you, that seems like a good
sign. They are nearly slick, have a nicely rounded casing, and are claimed
to be very tough. Seems pretty good.
I think the reflective sidewalls are useful. I don't know that they have
any real disadvantages for a tyre of this type, but I do know that when
driving at night reflectors of any type work wonders for making bicycles
noticeable. How often I have passed cyclists who were nearly invisible.
Do keep us up to-date with how they work out, e.g. let us know when/if you
get the first puncture, and when you have to replace them. If/when my
Airfrees ever wear out, they are a candidate for the replacements on those
wheels.
Joe Marshall
"Mark M" <m...@sink.drain> wrote in message
news:H9KP8.1717$lE3....@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
> And then there was the time that Jobst insisted that all mud is the same.
> "Mud is mud" IIRR.
Ah, he's obviously never ridden offroad in the UK then?
Kind of like American bike designers who design bikes which break if ridden
in British mud I guess.
Benjamin Lewis
> Well, there's a subtext here that you are missing.
Besides the fact that all your sentences have been tautologies?
Or perhaps I'm missing your point entirely.
--
Benjamin Lewis
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
- Mark Twain