Factory/machine built wheels
John Sergeant
How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine,
how is this done and how much is touched by human hands?
John Sergeant
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a
> machine, how is this done and how much is touched by human hands?
Think of it as you would a sewing machine that requires human
interaction while the sewing is done entirely by the machine, the
fabric being guided by hand. The same is essentially what a wheel
lacing machine does. There are two machines, a spoke lacing machine
and a tensioning and truing machine. The latter operates without
human intervention.
The tensioning and truing machine is the culprit in the so-called
machine built wheels. The tighter the spokes are made the dumber the
machine gets, as adjustments begins to enter spoke twist magnitude.
Ultimately the machine turns spoke nipples with no thread motion at
all, only spoke twist. To avoid arriving at this time wasting
tension, the process is often stopped at lower tension.
I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the
major manufacturers of wheel building machines. Neither was willing
to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving problems because
they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know
about wheel truing machines.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA
Matt O'Toole
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:sN4Ba.17566$JX2.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland
Mechanics, the
> major manufacturers of wheel building machines. Neither
was willing
> to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving
problems because
> they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they
don't know
> about wheel truing machines.
Did you really expect to be greeted with open arms? That
would be like admitting they'd been doing it wrong all these
years. I'd expect to be stonewalled too.
Matt O.
Gary Young
> Just out of curiosity...
>
> How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine,
> how is this done and how much is touched by human hands?
Either Cycle Sport or ProCycling (can't remember which) had an article
in a recent issue about Mavic's wheelbuilding operation, complete with
pictures. I meant to write up a summary and ask some questions here
based on that article, but never got around to it.
The article might be of interest to those engaged in the cartridge vs.
cup-and-cone debate: Mavic favors cartridge bearings because they cut
down on manufacturing time. A cone has to be threaded onto the axle
and then adjusted. Mavic's cartridge bearings are pressed into the hub
in a single step.
A Muzi
news:dae288cf.03052...@posting.google.com...
> Just out of curiosity...
>
> How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine,
> how is this done and how much is touched by human hands?
In the common setup, the hub is loaded with spokes by hand, an operator
feeds each spoke to the rim and the nipple is automatically fed and threaded
onto it. The built wheel is tensioned and trued on an automatic fixture and
usually finished by hand. There's no reason these wheels could not be
every bit as good as mine but for the lack of lubrication, time and
attention and the lack of stress relief and to some extent deficient
materials. None of those are inherent to a machine-trued wheel, as a human
operator is already doing a lot of the work. Time literally is money,
however, and since these wheels are saleable without any care there's no
impetus to change.
There are only a few of manufacturers of automated wheelbuilding equipment
in the world, Holland Mechanics being well known here.
Interestingly, when I was young, mass-produced bicycle wheels were
frequently built by the blind ( I grew up near a school for the blind).
Since much better opportunities are available to the blind today, this job
is now given over to the mentally deficient. In the local case, the operator
is paid to take care of the laborers for the day! Any work they produce is
just gravy on top of that!
And just to put all that in perspective, the typical wheel they produce
sells to distributors for about $9 in steel, $13 in aluminum. The sort of
thing r.b.t. readers ride (OK, exceptions, you know who you are) is so small
as to be nearly unnoticeable in the prebuilt-wheel market which is geared to
a high-volume low quality product.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
Chris Zacho The Wheelman
the more tedious hand lacing, but they will always tension, true and
stress the wheels by hand.
May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris
Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
Kraig Willett
> major manufacturers of wheel building machines. Neither was willing
> to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving problems because
> they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know
> about wheel truing machines.
If I was a well known company that was the leader in the industry, I
wouldn't want to talk to anyone about _technical_ matters - regardless of
who they were. I would make an exception, though, if the person I was
talking to had signed a confidentiality waiver.
The benefit/risk ratio is diminishingly small for the company involved to be
discussing these issues with anyone (I imagine this is why Jobst sees so
much "resistance" from the industry). From the mfr perspective, I see the
potential for a lawsuit - and the (US) courts have indeed seen them.
I wouldn't look at it as being snubbed by a bunch of "idiots" - I would look
at this situation as a company looking out (rightly so) for its best
business interests. Next time you would like to discuss something technical
with them, Jobst, I would suggest mentioning that you would be willing to
sign a confidentiality waiver.
If you were to sign that document, I imagine you might be treated
differently.
The company that I work for strictly forbids technically related/"idea"
discussions with anyone until the confidentiality waiver/NDA's (if it
proceeds that far) are taken care of.
--
==================
Kraig Willett
www.biketechreview.com
==================
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the
>> major manufacturers of wheel building machines. Neither was
>> willing to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving problems
>> because they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they
>> don't know about wheel truing machines.
> If I was a well known company that was the leader in the industry, I
> wouldn't want to talk to anyone about _technical_ matters -
> regardless of who they were. I would make an exception, though, if
> the person I was talking to had signed a confidentiality waiver.
> The benefit/risk ratio is diminishingly small for the company
> involved to be discussing these issues with anyone (I imagine this
> is why Jobst sees so much "resistance" from the industry). From the
> mfr perspective, I see the potential for a lawsuit - and the (US)
> courts have indeed seen them.
That is a scenario I have met with when talking to Shimano whose
response was different than that of the spoking machine people who,
even though they claim to have read my book, did not understand stress
relieving and therefore did not understand how to incorporate it into
their tensioning machine. It's not that they didn't talk about it but
rather that their lack of understanding became apparent. Spoke twist,
their main enemy, is easily solved but talking about it brought out
such a strong defense of the superiority of their machine that the
concept went right by them.
> I wouldn't look at it as being snubbed by a bunch of "idiots" - I
> would look at this situation as a company looking out (rightly so)
> for its best business interests. Next time you would like to
> discuss something technical with them, Jobst, I would suggest
> mentioning that you would be willing to sign a confidentiality
> waiver.
The tone makes the melody and the tome was not intelligent discussion.
> If you were to sign that document, I imagine you might be treated
> differently.
That was not their concern. The owner and chief engineer of BMD, who
came from Holland Mechanics, did not seem even slightly interested in
having me sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). He didn't want to
know because it was something he didn't understand.
> The company that I work for strictly forbids technically
> related/"idea" discussions with anyone until the confidentiality
> waiver/NDA's (if it proceeds that far) are taken care of.
So do they all. It is the same at Hewlett Packard and after first
contact with a purveyor of an interesting technical concept, it is
evaluated and an NDA is signed. I have been in on these many times.
Kraig Willett
The additional details of the conversation help to put it in context.
Michael Pearlman
The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the
book. "In the book" doesn't make it true.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
how is this done and how much is touched by human hands?
The only time a human touches most machine built wheels is to put them in the
box.
But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder tensions,
trues, rounds, dishes and stress relieves them.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Tim McNamara
mpe...@grossmont.k12.ca.us (Michael Pearlman) wrote:
> The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the
> book. "In the book" doesn't make it true.
Ah, yes. You're welcome to keep replacing broken spokes- no need for
you to stress relieve your wheels. I see that you remain an
unrepenitant idiot, fresh off your triumphal bleating about how badly
you were done over by a mail order company who shall remain nameless.
Personally, though, I follow the stress relieving procedures and
haven't replaced a spoke in tens of thousands of miles. I'd rather
ride my bike than fix it.
Jasper Janssen
wrote:
>But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder tensions,
>trues, rounds, dishes and stress relieves them.
Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more
time if he did them from scratch, especially with a form of electric
screwdriver to get the nipples to approximately right?
Jasper
A Muzi
> wrote:
> >But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder
tensions,
> >trues, rounds, dishes and stress relieves them.
"Jasper Janssen" <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote in message
news:p00ddvspi8gc4mro7...@4ax.com...
> Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more
> time if he did them from scratch, especially with a form of electric
> screwdriver to get the nipples to approximately right?
I can just imagine a factory manager wrangling with that problem - should I
get 25% more output from the same resources . . . or not?
You've got to be kidding
Jeff Wills
> In article <210ea83.03052...@posting.google.com>,
> mpe...@grossmont.k12.ca.us (Michael Pearlman) wrote:
>
> > The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the
> > book. "In the book" doesn't make it true.
>
>
> Personally, though, I follow the stress relieving procedures and
> haven't replaced a spoke in tens of thousands of miles. I'd rather
> ride my bike than fix it.
Same here. I've built my own wheels for many years. Before I started
using the methods detailed in Jobst's book, I broke many spokes.
After, I think I've broken one spoke in ten years. I've also rebuilt
wheels, reusing the same spokes per his instructions without issue.
Jeff
Jasper Janssen
>"Jasper Janssen" <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote in message
>news:p00ddvspi8gc4mro7...@4ax.com...
>> Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more
>> time if he did them from scratch, especially with a form of electric
>> screwdriver to get the nipples to approximately right?
>
>I can just imagine a factory manager wrangling with that problem - should I
>get 25% more output from the same resources . . . or not?
Those machiens aren't exactly un-resources..
Jasper
Qui si parla Campagnolo
more
time if he did them from scratch, especially with a form of electric
screwdriver to get the nipples to approximately right?
The value of custom wheels are that the customer, with the wheelbuilder's help,
can choose what components they want, hub, rim, spoke number wise.
Lacing takes no time, it's the tensioning, rounding, dishing, etc, that takes
time and a touch...
AndyMorris
> Interestingly, when I was young, mass-produced bicycle wheels were
> frequently built by the blind ( I grew up near a school for the
> blind). Since much better opportunities are available to the blind
> today, this job is now given over to the mentally deficient. In the
> local case, the operator is paid to take care of the laborers for the
> day! Any work they produce is just gravy on top of that!
When I was teenager I had a part time job lacing wheels at home, I used to
do 50 a week and get paid 20p per wheel, used to be able to lace 5 or 6 n
hour.
Thats was a decent wage for a teen ager back then.
--
Andy Morris
AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK
Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
AndresMuro
buying all components separate and putting them together. You need to tension
and stress relieve them, but it takes only a few minutes.
Andres