Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
Cerberus
Neil Clark is a fierce critic of US foreign policy, but he detests the
ignorant anti-Americanism of left-liberals
'I am 25, a graduate who has travelled extensively after university and a
Labour voter. To people of my type, across Europe and the English-speaking
world, Americans are a laughing-stock, known mainly for their vacuous
culture and profound ignorance. We all have a "dumb Yank" story on our
travels. This is why Americans are so hated by us on the Left, however much
we condemn the outrages.' Such were the thoughts of Thomas Smith of Bristol,
in a letter to the Daily Telegraph not long after the events of 11
September.
I am 35 - ten years older than Smith. I am also a graduate, and I, too, have
travelled 'extensively' - to more than 30 countries at the latest count. I,
too, consider myself to be 'on the Left', although, unlike Thomas Smith, I
actually stopped voting Labour when, in 1995, it ditched Clause Four and
thereby ceased to be a party of the Left. Why, then, when our backgrounds
and viewpoints appear so similar, did I feel such anger and indignation on
reading Smith's letter?
It would be nice to think that Smith's views are just the unrepresentative
opinions of a rather arrogant and puffed-up young man. Yet sadly, he is
probably right when he talks about how people of his 'type' see Americans.
Although Smith's assertions, thankfully, did not go unchallenged by American
readers of the Telegraph, one can only wonder what greater commotion would
have been caused had our young Bristolian used the term 'dumb' to describe,
for example, Nigerians or Pakistanis instead of Americans. If he had done
so, he would probably have been visited by officers of the Commission for
Racial Equality, and all prospects of a glittering postgraduate career would
have been nipped in the bud.
The 'Left' of Thomas Smith, though, while preaching equality and brotherly
love between all races, conveniently does allow for exceptions. All men are
equal; all men, that is, except Americans, Serbs, white Africans and
Protestants from Northern Ireland. Those unfortunate enough to be members of
these groups can be freely called all the names under the sun without fear
of opprobrium.
This explains how Polly Toynbee, the grande dame of political correctness,
can get away with calling Serbs 'dysfunctional' and in 'need of re-education
', and how left-liberal commentators can routinely label Ulster Protestants
as 'bigoted' and 'narrow-minded' with impunity. In Zimbabwe, Mugabe can yell
'Africa is for the Africans' without a single letter of protest in the
Guardian. Were a 'right-wing' European politician to make similar comments
about Europe, indignant readers would be sending in their emails within
seconds.
After the events of 11 September, it has been the Americans' turn to be on
the receiving end of the particularly nasty form of racism of the Left. Much
of this nastiness is, I believe, due to an insidious form of left-wing
snobbery based on a complete misconception of many aspects of American life
and society.
A good example of this condescension is the British Left's knee-jerk
opposition to the death penalty. How can any country or its citizens be
regarded as civilised as long as it maintains capital punishment? America
still has capital punishment, ergo, America isn't civilised. A correspondent
to my local newspaper made this very point the day after the WTC bombings:
George Bush had no right to talk about the attacks as constituting an
'attack on civilisation' while 'black men waited on death row'. The concept
of individual responsibility, and that those on death row might actually be
guilty of the crimes they are charged with, does not occur to the
bleeding-heart left-liberal conscience. The fact that there is not a single
credible example of a person wrongfully executed in America under the modern
code also, it seems, counts for little.
Linked to prejudice against the death penalty is the general
misunderstanding about crime in the US, with the image persisting of a land
where life is cheap and arguments routinely settled down the barrel of a
shotgun. Violent crime is undeniably a problem in most American inner
cities; yet, away from them, the US suffers from significantly less crime
than the UK. One is now twice as likely to be robbed, assaulted or have a
vehicle stolen in New Labour Britain than in the wicked 'Wild West'. New
York, under the 'zero tolerance' policies of Mayor Giuliani (loudly
criticised at the time by those on the Left as 'unworkable'), was
transformed in a remarkably short time into a city relatively free of crime,
aggressive begging and other undesirable activities. London, by contrast,
under the aegis of leftist-liberals, has gone in completely the opposite
direction. You are now more likely to be mugged, raped or murdered in Hyde
Park than in Central Park - something that would have been unthinkable 20
years ago, and an unpalatable fact for apologists for modern Britain.
Then there is the 'vacuous culture' argument, so beloved by intellectual
snobs of the Left when discussing America. True, much of contemporary US
culture is 'vacuous', particularly the pap emanating from the Hollywood
conveyor-belt. Yet American culture is not just the Californian
motion-picture industry. I wonder if Thomas Smith has ever heard of, or
indeed read, Ernest Hemingway, Thornton Wilder and Paul Bowles, three of the
finest writers of the 20th century? Or, if he prefers more modern
literature: Saul Bellow, Kurt Vonnegut and Philip Roth? Have those who
denigrate American culture ever seen a play by Tennessee Williams or Arthur
Miller, or listened to a symphony by Copland or Bernstein? The greatest film
of the 20th century, Citizen Kane, was American, as was the greatest pop
album, Pet Sounds. Any nation that gives the world Sergeant Bilko, Burt
Bacharach and the Beach Boys can surely be forgiven the occasional Eminem
and Jerry Lewis.
As in the case of crime rates, it ill behoves any citizen of these Ali
G-infested islands to berate the US for their 'vacuous culture' when we
boast some of the worst tabloid newspapers in the Western world, and our TV
listings abound with soap operas, game shows and bone-headed fly-on-the-wall
documentaries. It was Britain that exported The Weakest Link and Anne
Robinson to America, and not vice versa.
Another popular left-wing gripe about America is, of course, that all
Americans are money-obsessed and commercialism permeates all aspects of
society. It is undeniably true that a particularly aggressive form of
capitalism does operate in America, and few of us, of whatever political
persuasion, find the spectacle of ambulance-chasing lawyers particularly
edifying. However, this is only one half of the picture.
Strict competition laws ensure, as Janet Daley has pointed out in the Daily
Telegraph on several occasions, that consumers are immeasurably better off
in the US than in Britain. Despite the US's considerably higher wage levels,
it is hard, if not impossible, to think of any item which can be bought at a
lower price in Britain. Not only do Americans pay lower prices; they also
receive better service. Vivien Leigh, exiled to America in the 1940s, may
have loathed Hollywood, yet was still taken aback by 'the politeness of men
in garages'. Sixty years on, little has changed. In Britain, by contrast,
ripping off the consumer seems part of the fun for all concerned, from our
privatised utility companies through to the plumber who charges £400 for a
Christmas Eve call-out. And unlike in the US, service rarely comes with a
willing smile; more often than not with a snarl and a grossly inflated bill.
Moving on to the dreary 'Dumb Yanks' jibe, I write as one who has taught
both American and British students for more than ten years. While it is true
that knowledge of European geography is not usually the American student's
strong point, once again, one can't really press this too hard when only 8
per cent of our own schoolchildren have heard of Winston Churchill and 12
per cent believe Tony Blair to be a football player. And while we castigate
Americans for their ignorance of Europe, how many Britons can name the
capital of Nebraska, or know which states border Iowa?
All in all, unthinking attacks by the Left on Americans are not only nasty
but they don't add up. Does that mean, then, that we all have to love Uncle
Sam? Not a bit of it. I have written thousands of words condemning US
foreign policy, most of which were considered too strong to be published in
mainstream publications. I have organised petitions for the indictment of
Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright as war criminals for their role in the
illegal bombing of Yugoslavia, and have taken part in vigils and
demonstrations outside US embassies at home and abroad. I have resolutely
opposed President Bush's never-ending 'war against terrorism' since day one,
and am appalled at the prospect of forthcoming US military strikes against
Iraq.
Yet I have never personalised the strong feelings I have regarding US
foreign policy into attacks on individual Americans or Americans in general.
Refraining from doing so does not constitute a cop out or appeasement of the
enemy. Slobodan Milosevic, a man who has more cause than most to feel bitter
about Uncle Sam, shows that he understands this nuance perfectly when, after
a long, arduous day at his US-financed show trial, he unwinds each evening
with his collection of Hemingway's works and his Frank Sinatra CDs.
Similarly, no more scathing critiques of American society have been written
than Brave New World and After Many a Summer, yet their author, Aldous
Huxley, liked America and Americans so much that he spent the last 30 years
of his life living in California. By the same token, there have been few
more devastating critics of US foreign policy than Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal
and Ramsey Clark, American citizens all.
It is important for all of us who share that distinguished triumvirate's
world view to continue to break bread with individual Americans, for it is
not with individual Americans, or indeed with America in general, that our
argument lies. If we do otherwise, and start to label whole nationalities as
'dumb' and 'ignorant', we are already one small step away from the
undeniably racist mindset of those who perpetrated the atrocities in
Manhattan 12 months ago. By all means refer to US foreign policy as 'dumb',
Mr Smith, but please not its people.
Neil Clark is a tutor in history and politics at Oxford Tutorial College.
This article was copied from The Spectator Magazine.
The subject of this article, Mr Smith seems to reflect the opinions that are
often express by Desi and his lickspittle QZD. Whilst I would normally
hesitate to mention QZD at all, given that he is famous for nothing other
than his opaqueness, no mention of Desi would be complete without mentioning
the tail to the comet.
If the truth is represented by the Sun and Desi is the head of the comet in
orbit around the truth, coming close, but never quite making it. Then QZD is
the tail that always points away from the truth.
Am I the only one that has observed these un-balanced traits from some of
our European correspondents?
WooF w00f WooF
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A Planet Visitor
"Cerberus" <Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote in message news:3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com...
respect to your good self. You have done justice to yourself in this
post. And have gained a great deal of respect from me as well,
for having the good sense and the courage to post it, and comment
on it.
PV
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote:
[snip pointless article]
> If the truth is represented by the Sun and Desi is the head of the comet
> in
> orbit around the truth, coming close, but never quite making it. Then QZD
> is
> the tail that always points away from the truth.
Yada, yada, yada. You wouldn't know the truth if someone stuffed it up
your wrinkled, flappy old arse. An arse, by the way, that has been
repeatedly penetrated by the cheesy wheelbarrows of those for whom you
repeatedly and obsequiously bend over.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Cerberus
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote in
message news:jonathan-A7C368...@newsroom.utas.edu.au...
> In article <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>, "Cerberus"
> <Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote:
>
> [snip pointless article]
>
> > If the truth is represented by the Sun and Desi is the head of the
comet
> > in
> > orbit around the truth, coming close, but never quite making it. Then
QZD
> > is
> > the tail that always points away from the truth.
>
> Yada, yada, yada. You wouldn't know the truth if someone stuffed it up
> your wrinkled, flappy old arse. An arse, by the way, that has been
> repeatedly penetrated by the cheesy wheelbarrows of those for whom you
> repeatedly and obsequiously bend over.
Your comments only prove the point Herbie. Your leftist leanings are only
relevant because they represent your ambition. No doubt your mentality is
generated by your situation and your overwhelming need to get out. A review
of the claptrap that represented by your postings over the years indicates
your intelligence. All in all, I think I got it right when I categorised you
as a 'Grey Man' Yep, no need to waste anymore time with you.
WooF w00f WooF
Ps, even your invective is recycled Dirt droppings. Shit, what a loser.
Incubus
thanfully the attitudes you portrayed do not apply to me or mine. I find
that not every labour voter is anti-american. In fact the attitudes towards
Americans or foreign types differ depending on where you live. I live in the
sticks. I spent a brief time at her majesty's pleasure yet I have attained a
degree (just) and am a respectible citizen but i am lower class and i vote
labour but to me Americans are human beings. I have met too many of them to
think otherwise. where i live they do not care where you are from. Your
status is based entirely on how hard you are. :-)
I found the most bigotted people i know seem to be of middle to upper
classes
Incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:_Ofg9.26222$R7.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
it's a pity you don't show the same lack of bigotry towards us Brits PV.
Equility cuts both ways or it does not exist
Just passing by
> You have done justice to yourself in this
> post. And have gained a great deal of respect from me as well,
> for having the good sense and the courage to post it, and comment
> on it.
Courage? I thought courage was that quality we see in, for example,
those who daily risk their lives in the service of others - such as
those heroic fire-fighters who gave their lives rescuing people from
the WTC. But now the word "courage" is to be extended to the posting
of a message in a newsgroup, is it?
What an extraordinary word to use.
A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
"Courage, n.
1. The heart as the seat of feeling, thought, etc.; spirit, mind, disposition,
nature.
2. What is in one's mind or thoughts, what one is thinking of or intending;
intention, purpose; desire or inclination."
There are other meanings, of course. But mine was provided in the sense
of the above, and relates to one expressing the 'courage of his convictions.'
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message news:qTpg9.1714$ut4....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> news:_Ofg9.26222$R7.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > "Cerberus" <Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote in message
> news:3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com...
<article clipped>
Sometimes I really believe that you do not understand me at all, my son.
I hold no bigotry toward any class of humans. We are all individuals.
I hold no bigotry toward abolitionists as a group. Many are quite
reasonable, forceful, honorable and persuasive in their arguments. But,
there are certain MEMBERS of some classes that I find distasteful.
This, however, says nothing in respect to the ENTIRE class itself, in the
greater scheme of things. We are ALL individuals, and all must be
looked at as individuals, and not simply 'he's an American,' or 'He's
a Brit,' implying that alone makes anything he says irrelevant. Of
course, I will not hesitate to 'jab the stick,' so to speak, in those who
hold a different agenda, when the conversation provides an opportunity
to do so by turning to 'soccer' (sic), or 'cricket.' That's just fun to do.
I once posted this to you, in this respect, which demonstrates that I
hold no bigotry toward the English, and actually find our connection to
be stronger than between any other two nations on this puny planet.
Perhaps you missed it then, so allow me to repeat it --
"Just remember, it's all in good fun. Since I have the highest respect
for members of the U.K. in almost every case. We are united
by a common heritage, a common language (different from the
one desi uses) and political bonds which have existed for over
100 years. Unfortunately, it does not always 'play' in the other
direction, so let me say that my remarks generally constitute
'nationalist self-defense,' rather than any attempt to insult any
part of the British Empire, as a body. And let me say it does
not always come from members of the U.K. Those on this
side of the Atlantic can also show such behavior, of course.
There will always be bigoted 'bad-apples' who will attack individuals
simply in xenophobic rage (desi and dirt, for example). I am
not one of them, as long-time posters to this group should
recognize. In fact, I consider myself to be self-deprecating in
my own capabilities. And perhaps rightfully so. I certainly
would never deny my blue-collar 'proletariat' roots. And calling
me a 'red-neck' American, just rolls off my back. I lose no
measure of my own self-esteem by recognizing who and
what I am."
I take much greater issue with Europeans living on the continent,
France and Germany... then I do with the English. But we
work with what we have here, and it often ends up as Brit
against American... not because we are against each other
as nations and the entire body of our population... but because
we differ so strongly here regarding the DP argument.
Now... I certainly find SOME English members here to be distasteful
to me. But that says nothing about a perception of bigotry toward
all the English. It is more a symptom of our disagreement with the
DP. Peter Morris, who has referred to 'despising' me, and calling
me a coward. Hugh Neary who is undoubtedly an anti-Semite, and, of
course, dirtdog, who is.... well... who is just 'dirtdog.' It is a bit
reasonable that I would find argument with many 'Brits' here, because
our agendas differ so greatly. That's actually why we are here. But I
hold great respect for John Rennie, in spite of our frequent tiffs. I've
often mentioned that St. George can rise admirably to great heights
on certain occasions (while falling disgracefully on other occasions,
IMHO). And I have now expressed respect for Cerberus. All three differ
in their philosophy regarding the DP from my own. And I find you to be
quite respectable. In a larger sense, the British are closer to the U.S.
than anyone... and I could hardly be bigoted against my own.
You once claimed I called the British pompous and I had actually
done exactly the opposite. I had said "the English are not a pompous
people." I had referred to FDP, as an INDIVIDUAL. But he is NOT
English, and is certainly pompous. You perhaps believe he is
English, but he is Irish, disavows all English connection (he and I
have even had a dialog where he strongly disavows such a connection),
and now 'presumably' (we can believe hardly anything that FDP says),
also holds French citizenship, having found a French woman stupid
enough to marry him.
PV
Incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
no mate. It was me forgetting the smiley :-) here i'll do an extra one :-)
> I hold no bigotry toward any class of humans. We are all individuals.
> I hold no bigotry toward abolitionists as a group. Many are quite
> reasonable, forceful, honorable and persuasive in their arguments. But,
> there are certain MEMBERS of some classes that I find distasteful.
> This, however, says nothing in respect to the ENTIRE class itself, in the
> greater scheme of things. We are ALL individuals, and all must be
> looked at as individuals, and not simply 'he's an American,' or 'He's
> a Brit,' implying that alone makes anything he says irrelevant. Of
> course, I will not hesitate to 'jab the stick,' so to speak, in those who
> hold a different agenda, when the conversation provides an opportunity
> to do so by turning to 'soccer' (sic), or 'cricket.' That's just fun to
do.
> I once posted this to you, in this respect, which demonstrates that I
> hold no bigotry toward the English, and actually find our connection to
> be stronger than between any other two nations on this puny planet.
> Perhaps you missed it then, so allow me to repeat it --
you should always clear you throat before long speaches. It's only polite.
:-)
>
> "Just remember, it's all in good fun. Since I have the highest respect
> for members of the U.K. in almost every case. We are united
> by a common heritage, a common language (different from the
> one desi uses) and political bonds which have existed for over
> 100 years. Unfortunately, it does not always 'play' in the other
> direction, so let me say that my remarks generally constitute
> 'nationalist self-defense,' rather than any attempt to insult any
> part of the British Empire, as a body. And let me say it does
> not always come from members of the U.K. Those on this
> side of the Atlantic can also show such behavior, of course.
> There will always be bigoted 'bad-apples' who will attack individuals
> simply in xenophobic rage (desi and dirt, for example). I am
> not one of them, as long-time posters to this group should
> recognize. In fact, I consider myself to be self-deprecating in
> my own capabilities. And perhaps rightfully so. I certainly
> would never deny my blue-collar 'proletariat' roots. And calling
> me a 'red-neck' American, just rolls off my back. I lose no
> measure of my own self-esteem by recognizing who and
> what I am."
just remember that nationalist self defense is usually responded to by
nationalist self defense by the other side
anyway, i am still not sure what a red neck is. I think it's a country
bumpkin type isn't it? if so then i am a redneck
am i ashamed of living with nature? no
>
> I take much greater issue with Europeans living on the continent,
> France and Germany... then I do with the English. But we
> work with what we have here, and it often ends up as Brit
> against American... not because we are against each other
> as nations and the entire body of our population... but because
> we differ so strongly here regarding the DP argument.
Hey mate, I am not the only brit that supports the death penalty. in fact in
the last vote. the aboloshinists didn't get the overwhelming majority they
hoped for.
>
> Now... I certainly find SOME English members here to be distasteful
> to me. But that says nothing about a perception of bigotry toward
> all the English. It is more a symptom of our disagreement with the
> DP. Peter Morris, who has referred to 'despising' me, and calling
> me a coward. Hugh Neary who is undoubtedly an anti-Semite, and, of
> course, dirtdog, who is.... well... who is just 'dirtdog.' It is a bit
> reasonable that I would find argument with many 'Brits' here, because
> our agendas differ so greatly. That's actually why we are here. But I
> hold great respect for John Rennie, in spite of our frequent tiffs. I've
> often mentioned that St. George can rise admirably to great heights
> on certain occasions (while falling disgracefully on other occasions,
> IMHO). And I have now expressed respect for Cerberus. All three differ
> in their philosophy regarding the DP from my own. And I find you to be
> quite respectable. In a larger sense, the British are closer to the U.S.
> than anyone... and I could hardly be bigoted against my own.
It appears we have some of the same enemies. I think i am going to have
trouble with Hugh but if he gets too arsy i will simply drop him. I reset my
killfile list recently so dirtbag is no longer on it though i have not seen
him post since i resetted.<crap joke> St George will rise to great heights
because of all those dragons he killed </crap joke>
as for you.. you are too much like me. You are too sensative for your own
good. You let those that hate you bother you and don't deny it because it is
bleeding obvious. Seriously mate, don't force the strong big man who never
killfiles anyone crap. it causes more crap than it's worth. if they give you
too much hassle, drop them. It's easier in the long run
>
> You once claimed I called the British pompous and I had actually
> done exactly the opposite. I had said "the English are not a pompous
> people." I had referred to FDP, as an INDIVIDUAL. But he is NOT
> English, and is certainly pompous. You perhaps believe he is
> English, but he is Irish, disavows all English connection (he and I
> have even had a dialog where he strongly disavows such a connection),
> and now 'presumably' (we can believe hardly anything that FDP says),
> also holds French citizenship, having found a French woman stupid
> enough to marry him.
Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English. I have Irish
heritige but i am English. I have never been to Ireland but my blood is 50%
irish and it flows strong
I wish you people wouldn't post such long posts. My reader doesn't always
work :-(
>
>
> PV
>
>
>
>
Incubus
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnao4pes.njj.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:23:06 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip LDB's 500-line trouser cough }
>
> > Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English.
>
i do unless i get angry or excited then i sound like my father with an
additional stutter :-)
>
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> desmond @ zeouane.org
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Incubus
> Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:37:59 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> > Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English.
>
> >> LOL ... ask John Rennie and QZD if I 'sound' English, for a start. :-)
>
> > i do unless i get angry or excited then i sound like my father with an
> > additional stutter :-)
>
> perhaps lived in England for six months out of my entire life.
you come across as being english in your wording. I wasn't trying to piss
you off or anything.
John Rennie
> Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:23:06 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip LDB's 500-line trouser cough }
>
>
>
>
> Desmond Coughlan
Incubus is wrong on two counts, you are not English and
the word is 'definitely'.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:40:18 +0000
>
>Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:37:59 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> > Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English.
>
>>> LOL ... ask John Rennie and QZD if I 'sound' English, for a start. :-)
>
>> i do unless i get angry or excited then i sound like my father with an
>> additional stutter :-)
>
>Well for info, your assertion that I am 'English', is silly. I have
>perhaps lived in England for six months out of my entire life.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:40:18 +0000
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Desi is afraid of his own words! He can be reached at des...@noos.fr or
des...@zeouane.org.
As everyone knows, only COWARDS forge posts yet don't allow their own to be
archived!
Now Desi, Tell us about the Baltimore County police.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:25:33 +0000
>
>Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:23:06 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip LDB's 500-line trouser cough }
>
>> Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English.
>
>LOL ... ask John Rennie and QZD if I 'sound' English, for a start. :-)
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:25:33 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:35:36 +0000
>
>Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:51:33 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>> "Incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message
>news:qTpg9.1714$ut4....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
>{ snip }
>
>ROTFLMAO !!! We know LDB has sunk low, when even incubus is
>spanking him to within an inch of his life. Perhaps he'll call for
>'backup' from the 'Select Few' ... who knows ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:35:36 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:33:13 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:31:08 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > Desi may have Irish heritage but he is definately English.
>
>>> LOL ... ask John Rennie and QZD if I 'sound' English, for a start. :-)
>
>> Incubus is wrong on two counts, you are not English and
>> the word is 'definitely'.
>
>Absollutely.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:33:13 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:08:56 +0000
>
>Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:46:37 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Well for info, your assertion that I am 'English', is silly. I have
>>> perhaps lived in England for six months out of my entire life.
>
>> you come across as being english in your wording. I wasn't trying to piss
>> you off or anything.
>
>You didn't, don't worry. I speak and write pure, i.e. British
>English. The language I speak is that defined in _The OED_ as
>the supreme arbiter of that language.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:08:56 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:17:54 +0000
>
>Le 13 Sep 2002 11:33:28 -0700, Just passing by <unimpre...@yahoo.com> a
>écrit :
>
>>> You have done justice to yourself in this
>>> post. And have gained a great deal of respect from me as well,
>>> for having the good sense and the courage to post it, and comment
>>> on it.
>
>> Courage? I thought courage was that quality we see in, for example,
>> those who daily risk their lives in the service of others - such as
>> those heroic fire-fighters who gave their lives rescuing people from
>> the WTC. But now the word "courage" is to be extended to the posting
>> of a message in a newsgroup, is it?
>>
>> What an extraordinary word to use.
>
>LDB's posts are full of 'extraordinary' use of words, which are in
>fact, blatant bastardisations of the English language. 'courage' in
>a poster, is the same as saying, 'A poster who agrees with LDB', or
>the alternative meaning is, 'Someone who disagrees with that big, bad
>desi'.
>
>He has gone over the edge, and I cannot help but feel a sliver of
>guilt, at having thrashed him to within an inch of his 'life', and
>caused the massive increase in his use of tranquillisers. :-(
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:17:54 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
> Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:51:33 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
>
>
> ROTFLMAO !!! We know LDB has sunk low, when even incubus is
> spanking him to within an inch of his life. Perhaps he'll call for
> 'backup' from the 'Select Few' ... who knows ?
>
rather straightforward and direct question, FDP. Since if it is, why
have you quoted 'askoxford'? (see how 'quote' is properly used as
a noun??).
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan DP SUPPORTER #1
A Planet Visitor
> Le Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:46:37 +0100, Incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Well for info, your assertion that I am 'English', is silly. I have
> >> perhaps lived in England for six months out of my entire life.
>
> > you come across as being english in your wording. I wasn't trying to piss
> > you off or anything.
>
> English. The language I speak is that defined in _The OED_ as
> the supreme arbiter of that language.
>
or your claim that 'quote' is not a noun. Little wonder everyone finds
you to be a hypocrite. The only thing that is 'pure' about any of your
postings, is that a vast majority of them are 'pure' bullshit.
Go on now... give me your one-line, totally repetitive, 'mindless drivel,'
regarding something about 'jumping.' Which is just a cheap imitation
of my remarking that YOU jump when I pull the strings, as my little
puppet, which began from you as a copy of my post two days after
I first remarked on my being your 'puppet master' on 16 July. You really
haven't ever had an original thought, have you?
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S BEST WEAPON FOR RETENTION
Just passing by
Whatever the context, the use of that word was over complimentary. As
a very large majority of posts to this and other newsgroups represent
"what is in one's mind or thoughts, what one is thinking of or
intending; intention, purpose; desire or inclination," it would seem
that they all meet this "courage of convictions" criteria and so, by
your logic, are all worthy of being labelled courageous. The word
itself becomes devalued when used in such an indiscriminate manner.
A Planet Visitor
EVERYONE sees a comment as an expression of the 'courage of his
convictions,' no one can use the word. Your comment implies that
because YOU see no 'courage of conviction' to the post, the word can't
be used. Certainly, YOU are trying to define what IS 'courage,' in a very
narrow context, putting YOUR particular spin on the word. We've all
used the word at one time or another to indicate bravery, valor, or no fear
of facing danger. But that was obviously not my meaning. Although
I've noticed that you like to use the word in a negative context in much
of your posting to me. Trust me... I also have the 'courage of my convictions.'
If one subjectively sees a post that to them represents a STRONG sense
of an expression of feeling or thought, it actually doesn't matter what others
see in it. Nor does it matter if one agrees with the CONCLUSION provided
in that post. I certainly would not go ballistic (as you have presumably
done), if anyone used that word in remarking on the post of another. Nor
would I always define the word as totally 'complimentary.' Although it was
meant to be in my use. To put this in some context... I see desi's posts
as 'courageous' in the sense of my meaning. I also see them as totally
stupid. Others here have also confused 'courage' with 'stupidity.' The
words are NOT 'mutually exclusive.' See a post from Earl about that. But
there is no doubt FDP's posts represent his convictions, regardless of
how 'evil' and 'disgusting' those convictions actually are in my view. I
see your posts in reference to the 'Great White Whale' as representing
the 'courage of your convictions' as well. Regardless of how wrong those
convictions can be shown to be. Not as 'evil' as FDP's posts, but certainly
wrong in your conclusions. bin Laden has the 'courage of his convictions.'
Hitler had the 'courage of his convictions.' Is that meant to imply a
'complimentary' view? I think not.
As is the case of many here, who find my views troubling to their agenda,
you would hope to 'pick a word' out of a post, and suck the life out of it,
by placing your narrow-minded little meaning to that word. I have been at
odds with Cerberus in the past. At first even believing he was 'dirtdog' in
some trolling disguise. But I refuse to allow such petty differences to
blind me to the fact that the post he provided was both powerful, and
represented his conviction.
PV
BTW -- I am accustomed to using 'extraordinary' words. They have so
confused FDP in the past, that he has called them 'pseudo-intellectual.'
Do not fall into that same trap.
Just passing by
> You must live to only provide utter nonsense. You presume that unless
> EVERYONE sees a comment as an expression of the 'courage of his
> convictions,' no one can use the word.
That is not what either of my replies have indicated.
> Your comment implies that
> because YOU see no 'courage of conviction' to the post, the word can't
> be used.
What I cannot see is, by the criteria you offered, where the post in
question differed from almost any other post from any other poster. If
you can point to what specifically marks that post out as courageous
and separates it, in that respect, from most other posts, do so. But
so far you haven't.
> I certainly would not go ballistic (as you have presumably
> done), if anyone used that word in remarking on the post of another.
No, PV, I haven't gone "ballistic". It is a minor point that I
nevertheless think was worth raising. I don't go "ballistic" over the
use of a single word.
> Nor would I always define the word as totally
> 'complimentary.' Although it was meant to be in my use.
That is my point; it was an inappropriate and undeserved compliment. I
am not saying you shouldn't have generally complimented Cerberus on
the post, but that to praise his "courage" was excessive.
It is remarkable how much effort you have devoted to answering my very
minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
ally.
dirtdog
<snipped largely excellent article>
How pleased I am to notice my young protege hit the nail firmly on its
head in so many respects, yet how disappointed I am to be forced to
concede that this most insightful post is marred by a couple of
fundamental inaccuracies.
It is of course _vital_ that those of us whose criticism of US policy and the
brainless arrogance we perceive in so many of her citizens do not allow
ourselves to behave in exactly the same manner as those we quite
correctly belittle for their fuckwittedness. Otherwise we become no
better ourselves than the retard who on Spetember 12th last year screamed
'They can't do this to us - we're American!'.
It is both necessary and desirable that the US is the focus of a
disproportionate amount of criticism. After all, it is top dog and the
most powerful nation on Earth, and in any heirarchical political system,
it is of the utmost importance that a strong opposition exists so as to
counterbalance the power held by the dominant party.
However, that opposition must always be careful to ensure its critique is
balanced and does not actually serve to damage the legitimacy of the
arguments it makes by going _too_ far.
Which, of course, ties in nicely with the sub-topic of this thread -
namely the hypocrisy of those who seem preoccupied with comdemning
'racism' and 'bigotry'.
Cerberus makes the excellent point that whilst 'the Left' will jump up
and down with outrage at examples of 'traditional' white-on-black
'racism', yet remain conspicuously silent when faced with the type of
idiocy presently being perpetrated in situations such as those facing
white farmers in Zimbabwe. Whilst I am quite used to reading articles in
Britain's 'liberal' press exposing 'Institutional Racism', I see little
comment on what appears to be the most insidious and worrying form of
ethnic tension in this nation - namely the widespread _hatred_ which seems
to exist between the Indian and Pakistani communities, and the insular
nature of both. Whilst public
scorn will be poured on any Father who forbids his white daughter from
fraternising with black men, it is all too easy to ignore the far more
common _blanket_ prohibition within Asian families of inter-racial
relationships.
Whilst fuckwit dead politician Bernie Grant once stated something along
the lines of 'Every white is a racist', I to this day have witnessed very
few expressions of contempt for such words, other than the expected rants
contained in simplistic right-wing hate rags such as the Daily Mail.
It is the ridiculous, almost patronising line taken by the likes of
Toynbee which has created the dangerous concept of 'positive
discrimination' which is thankfully largely prohibited by law in England.
Such a practice surely breeds resentment, bitterness and racist or
nationalistic fervour, as do the left-wing 'thought police' who
brutally condemn the non-ultra PC as 'racist'. Quite ironically, the worst
offender in this group with regard the latter is right wing zealot, PV,
whose anomalous behaviour I can only attribute to a disproportionate
response to the level of guilt he feels vis a vis his country's rather
disgusting recent history of racial discrimination.
_However_, in the desire of Cerberus desire to pitch this otherwise excellent
article as a flame against namby pamby lefty QZD and his occasional
cohort, Desmond, he has sadly caused the gloss to be taken away from
the accuracy of what would have otherwise been a most accurate article.
The behaviour for which he berates them (especially Desmond) is most
certainly not racism, and his inappropriate use of the term serves only to
devalue it. This transforms the title of this thread into meaningless
rhetoric, and that is a shame.
Regarding the subject matter of Cerberus' post, and isolating the actual
instances of racism of which he speaks (as distinguished from
nationalism), I can quite confidently state that neither Desmond nor QZD
are guilty, and I should be most interested to see on what grounds he
bases any claim that they are.
In fact, in drawing a conclusion, irony strikes once again when one
considers that the only regular in this group who is most definitely
guilty of making a sincere blanket condemnation of an ethnic group is Cerberus'
'Occasional Ally'*, PV, who has stated quite categorically his disdain for
Palestinians and expressed the sentiment that he will 'never trust them
again'.
w00f
*- (c) 2002 JPB
dirtdog
passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snipped PV going on like a twat>
> I certainly would not go ballistic (as you have presumably done), if
> anyone used that word in remarking on the post of another.
> No, PV, I haven't gone "ballistic". It is a minor point that I
> nevertheless think was worth raising. I don't go "ballistic" over the
> use of a single word.
It's SIPVB*, JPB. I shouldn't give it a second's thought.
A short perusal of Google will show you quite effectively how PV will, on
being thoroughly spanked, accuse the party administering the hiding of
being 'hysterical' or 'going ballistic'.
He usually does this in a 20k diatribe, often after having accused the
very same person of being 'evil', 'demented' or 'insane' and likening
their behaviour to an infamous historical dictator or criminal.
w00f
*- Standard Issue PV Bollocks
A Planet Visitor
> Le 15 Sep 2002 02:31:10 -0700, Just passing by <unimpre...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
> > through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
> > post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
> > went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
> > post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
> > ally.
>
> billytwat ... how low can he get ? No, don't answer that ... :-(
TRANSLATION -- 'Oh... how I miss dirtdog... but in his absence, will
YOU come out and play with me, JPB???'
Jesus... did William Robert spank you!!! Your ass must be excruciatingly
painful today.
BTW -- Do you believe the OED is the 'Supreme Arbiter' of the English
Language?
PV
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |LOOKING FOR A FRIEND - ANY FRIEND
A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
>
> > You must live to only provide utter nonsense. You presume that unless
> > EVERYONE sees a comment as an expression of the 'courage of his
> > convictions,' no one can use the word.
>
>
> That is not what either of my replies have indicated.
>
Of course it is. You actually rather boxed yourself in, by presuming
I could not use the word in that particular context. Definitionally,
it was quite correct, and represented what I saw in the comment.
> > Your comment implies that
> > because YOU see no 'courage of conviction' to the post, the word can't
> > be used.
>
> What I cannot see is, by the criteria you offered, where the post in
> question differed from almost any other post from any other poster. If
> you can point to what specifically marks that post out as courageous
> and separates it, in that respect, from most other posts, do so. But
> so far you haven't.
>
Because it demonstrated a strong 'courage of his convictions' IN MY
VIEW.
>
> > I certainly would not go ballistic (as you have presumably
> > done), if anyone used that word in remarking on the post of another.
>
>
> No, PV, I haven't gone "ballistic". It is a minor point that I
> nevertheless think was worth raising. I don't go "ballistic" over the
> use of a single word.
>
If it's so 'minor' why did you bother? Unless you are particularly
obsessive-compulsive. But we already know that. Perhaps YOU
didn't find it contained a 'courage of conviction.' But that certainly
doesn't imply you can TELL ME that I cannot. If you say that you
didn't find it as such... say so. But do not try to tell me what 'I' can
or cannot find in the comment. 'Profound' is another word that is
'quite extraordinary.' But not all find a comment as 'profound,' yet
certainly some MAY.
>
> > Nor would I always define the word as totally
> > 'complimentary.' Although it was meant to be in my use.
>
> That is my point; it was an inappropriate and undeserved compliment. I
> am not saying you shouldn't have generally complimented Cerberus on
> the post, but that to praise his "courage" was excessive.
>
I felt it was a strong demonstration of the 'courage of his convictions.'
Are you presuming I might not do so? What YOU find in the comment
has NOTHING to do with what I might find. This is in fact the central
principle of this group. We ALL find what WE find. We are NOT
beholden to what others find. We are each -- 'the eye of the beholder.'
> It is remarkable how much effort you have devoted to answering my very
> minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
> through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
> post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
> went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
> post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
> ally.
>
What is remarkable is that you became so obsessed over my use of
a particular word that you felt it even necessary to comment on it. Since
it was certainly proper in respect to the English language, regardless of how
'extraordinary' you found it to be. That's the 'ballistic' part. If it was
so 'minor,' why did you bother? Why not JUST say 'I didn't find it to be
courageous,' and let it go at that? In effect, YOU ARE trying to tell me
what I may find, and what I may not find in a comment.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:20020915.155928...@fruffrant.com...
Language that has a variety of shadings and meanings. It was JPB
who rose up in 'righteous wrath' over my use of the word. That's
'ballistic' to me.
Nor am I becoming paranoid right now. It seems YOU are sticking
your nose in, in your special way of paranoia. Perhaps because you
were so thoroughly spank...spank... spanked, in respect to 'mitigating
circumstances.' You guys are just sooooo easy.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <unk...@spammesenseless.com> wrote in message news:20020915.143955...@spammesenseless.com...
> In article <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>, "Cerberus"
> <Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote:
>
>
> <snipped largely excellent article>
>
<'Mindless drivel' clipped>
>
> In fact, in drawing a conclusion, irony strikes once again when one
> considers that the only regular in this group who is most definitely
> guilty of making a sincere blanket condemnation of an ethnic group is Cerberus'
> 'Occasional Ally'*, PV, who has stated quite categorically his disdain for
> Palestinians and expressed the sentiment that he will 'never trust them
> again'.
Not once will you find the two words 'disdain' and Palestinian' juxtaposed
in ANY post of mine. And my remark regarding 'trust' was "I trust neither
the Palestinians nor the Israelis in terms of spoken political objectives
from either side." Hardly a statement which indicates a 'bias' in one
direction or the other. In fact, this is not the FIRST time you have tried to
put those words in my mouth. Begining with you making that same claim
in the thread "Guantanamo Bay or Camp X-Ray." 2002-02-24 21:05-28 PST.
I have never said 'never trust them again' in respect to ANYTHING. Those
4 consecutive words do not exist in my posting history. But you tried to
make them so, by even placing "will never trust the Palestinians again" in
double-quotation marks, implying THEY were my exact words, which they
also are NOT. THESE were my words, placed here on 20 Sep 2001, after
watching humans dance in the street about the WTC attack -- which you
deviously changed into a different meaning --
"Will I EVER be able to believe that the Palestinians are REASONABLE
in any dispute they may have with ANY other people concerning what
they view as rightfully theirs? NOT A CHANCE. I may still believe that
they have such rights, in some small part. But I will NEVER AGAIN, believe
that they are REASONABLE."
You see the word 'trust' there? Of course not. I trust neither side, but
I actually believe the Jew is more REASONABLE in this conflict. Why??
Because of these comments from Palestinian and Arab sources --
It would appear that the destruction of the State of Israel is uppermost in
the hearts and minds of the typical Palestinian, and is being taught that
in school. Hardly what one would term 'reasonable.' --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'I would like to stand at the place and kill the Jew, who stands opposite
me. If each Arab kills one Jew, then no more Jews will be left.'
Mustafa Tlas, Syrian Secretary of Defense, Lebanese television LBC
6 May 2001.
'Have no mercy with the Jews, no matter, in which country. Fight against
them, wherever you meet them. Wherever you might be, kill the Jews
and Americans, who are like them, and who assist them. They all lie
in the same trench (fighting) against the Arabs and Muslims.'
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the ' Fatwa Council,' appointed
by the Palestinian autonomy authority, and former rector of the Islamic
University in Gaza, television of the Palestinian autonomy authority,
14 October 2000.
'Jews are Jews, whether Labor or Likud, Jew is Jews. There are no
moderate ones or supporters of peace among them. They are all liars.
We must massacre and kill them. As Allah the all powerful one says:
'Fight against them.' Allah will torture them with your hands and will
humiliate them and will help you, to overcome them and to release
the souls of the believers (...) They (the Jews) created her (Israel)
as an outpost of their civilization - and as a vanguard of their army
and as a sword of the West and of the Knight of the Cross, which
is hanging in this country over the heads of the Muslim monotheists.
They want Jews to be their leaders...'
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Fatwa Council, in the
mosque Zayd bin Sultan Nahyan in Gaza, 13 October 2000 (on
the day after the lynching murder of two Israeli reservists in Ramallah,
which they showed live on the Palestinian television." (2002:23)
'Each pious Muslim must participate in the Dshihad, in order to
liberate the robbed Palestine from the condemned heretical Jews
(...); of what advantage would be a normalization with the impure Jews?'
Iast Ibrahim, vice-president of the Iraq, on the summit conference of
the Islamic States, 12 November 2000." (2002:30).
"We will not give up one patch of ground in Palestine, from Haifa and
Jaffa and Akko and Mulabbas (Petah Tikvah) and Salamah and
Majdal (Ashkelon) and from the entire country and Gaza and the
West Jordan territory... '
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the 'Fatwa Council' of the
Palestinian autonomy authority, 13 October 2000, the day after
the lynching murder of two Israeli reservists in Ramallah, which they
showed live on the Palestinian television. (Haifa, Jaffa, Akko, Petah
Tikvah and Ashkelon are Israeli cities)." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:34)
'Even if we agreed, to proclaim our State, while it contains now only
22 per cent of Palestine, that is, the West Jordan territory and Gaza,
our final goal will still be the liberation of the entire historical Palestine
from the river (= Jordan) up to the sea (= Mediterranean) (...). We
differentiate between the strategic, long-term goals and the short term
political goals, which we must accept temporarily, due to international
pressure.'
Faisal al-Husseini, former Palestinian Minister for Jerusalem questions,
in the Egyptian newspaper al-Arabi 24 June 20001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:35)
'... if Allah wants it, this unfair State of Israel will be extinguished, this
unfair State of Great Britain will be extinguished (...) Blessed is he, who
leads de Dshihad, in order to accomplish Allah's will (...). Blessed is he,
who attaches a belt with explosives at his body or at the bodies of his
sons, to throw himself with this into the middle of a crowd of Jews...'
Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi in a lecture a few days after Jassir Arafat declared
an armistice, Palestinian television, 8 June 20001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:36)
'We teach the children that suicide assassination attempts will cause
the Israeli people to become afraid and that we are allowed to do that
(...), we teach them, that someone, who becomes a suicide assassin,
achieves the highest rank in the paradise.'
Palestinian advisor 'Paradise Camp' toward BBC, quoted after the
Jerusalem Post, 20 July 2001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:36)
'All weapons must be directed against the Jews, Allah's enemies, which
the Koran describes as apes and pigs, worshippers of the calf and
worshipper of idols. Allah will let the Muslim rule over the Jew, we will
blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya
for Allah's justice against this rabble (...) We will enter Jerusalem and
Jaffa and Haifa and Ashkelon as conquerors (...), we bless all those,
who educate their children in the spirit of the djihad and martyrdom.
Blessed is, who fires a bullet into the head of a Jew.'
In a lecture, sent on the television of the Palestinian autonomy authority,
3 August 2001." Gal Ben Ari (2002:36, 37)
'The West has changed Islam into an enemy (...), already since the
wars of the Knights of the Cross (...). It is inconceivable that we, the
Muslims, will sign a treaty against another Muslim State (...). One must
bring the fear (the terror) over Allah's enemies (...). If these are terrorists,
then this is the best kind of terror, which there is (...). I do not believe
that a Muslim will allow it that a Muslim homeland, such as Palestine
and Jerusalem, remains in the hands of the Zionists (...). Each person
has the right, to transform himself into a human bomb and to explode
in this society (Israel) as a bomb.'
Sheikh Jussuf Al Kardawi, one of the most outstanding Islam scholars
(Doha, Qatar) in an interview for the TV organization El Dschazia, 16
September 20001." - Gal Ben Ari, The seed of hate. Jews and Israel
in the Arab media (2002:37, 38)
And From Palestinian school books ==
'It is a self-sacrifice, when a Muslim dies, while doing Allah's will (...).
A person, who dies in this way, is called a martyr (...). Self-sacrifice
for Allah is a hope for those, who believe in Allah and trust in his
promises. The martyr is glad, full of ecstasy, that he will go into the
paradise, which Allah has prepared for him.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, P. 112.
'The Muslim sacrifices himself for his faith and fights a Holy War
for Allah. He does not know cowardice, because he understands
that the time of his death has already been determined and that
it is better to die as a martyr on the battleground, than to die in bed.'
Islamic education for the 8th Class, P. 176.
'... Fighters and martyrs of the Holy War are the most honorable
persons after the prophets.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 103.
'I will take my soul into my own hand and hurl it (in the war) into
the abyss of death (...). You know, I do see my own death and
march toward it fast (...). You know - That is the death of men
and of the one (...), seeking an honorable death - that is death
pure and simple.'
Song of the martyrs, from: Our Arabic language for the 5th Class,
P. 60 and guide for the improvement of the Arabic language for
the 12th Class, P. 84.
'... The youth will not be fatigued, it will want to be either free or to
die. We scoop our water out of death. And we will not be slaves of
the enemies. Our symbol is the 'sword' and the 'feather', but not
'words'.'
My homeland, from: Palestinian national education for the 1st Class,
P. 67-68." - Gal Ben Ari (2002: 39, 40).
'The holy war is a religious obligation for each Muslim man and each
Muslim woman.'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, P. 167.
'Know this, my son, that Palestine is your country (...), its entire
earth has been soaked with the blood of the martyrs. Why do we have
to fight (against the Jews) and drive them from our country?'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, part I, P. 64-66." - Gal Ben
Ari (2002:43).
'My brothers! The suppressors (the Israelis) have crossed the borders.
Therefore Holy War and self-sacrifice are an obligation! (...) Should
we allow them to steal our Arab nature? (...) Draw your sword! Let us
collect for this with red blood and kindled fire. (...) Death will call the
sword and it will become mad from so many battles. Oh, Palestine,
your youth will save your country.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 120-122." - Gal
Ben Ari (2002:44).
'... in your left hand you carried the Koran, and in your right hand
an Arab sword (...) Not one centimeter (= of the land) will be freed
without blood. Therefore, go forward, and shout: Allah is great!'
Bayonet and torches, from: Reading book & literary texts for the 10th
Class, P. 131-135.
'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
Muslims over the Jews.'
Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Rennie once asked me about my remark of your anti-semitism.
It is rather implied in your post here.
And let me update a post I provided to FDP, which applies to you
as well --
Gentle reader --
Allow me to bring you up to date on dirtdog's feelings.
When Palestinians kill their victims, who those victims are
is of no importance. They have killed 'rightfully.' It only
matters to him WHO is the killer. By his argument... ALL
those Jewish who kill are heartless, and cruel murderers,
regardless. Shooting a suicide terrorist (Of course, in
dirtdog's vocabulary there is no such thing... they are ALL
'peace-loving freedom fighters'), before that terrorist
('freedom fighter') can detonate his/her self, is of course
MURDER in the eyes of dirtdog. All those Palestinians
who kill are 'peace-loving Freedom Fighters'.... regardless.
Their victims, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslims, babies,
pregnant women, teenagers, old people, other Palestinians,
Americans, European tourists, Journalists, or from Mars,
do not enter into any 'dirtdog equation of right vs. wrong.'
Not even one single slight stroke of his pen in his
particular equation. The Jew is ALWAYS wrong, while
the Palestinian is ALWAYS right, regardless of ANY
consequences of the acts they take, in that equation.
dirtdog's views (and FDP's and Jürgen's) represent a
microcosm of what is WRONG with the entire conflict
(mainly in the eyes of the typical European - which strikes
me as anti-Semitic). Have some Jews committed atrocities?
Of course. Have some Palestinians committed atrocities?
Of course. I usually play the 'devil's advocate,' here in this
argument, because there is no balance to the argument (and
some others as well). To dirtdog, the Jew is by definition
'wrong.' The Palestinian is by definition 'right.'
REGARDLESS of the ACT. It is typical of those who
actually live, and breath within that conflict, on both
side of the conflict. There is NO self-criticism.. NO
self-reflection... NO self-recrimination. No valuation
of right from wrong. Only the 'identification' of either
BEING a Jew or BEING a Palestinian. Which they
supposedly presume answers the question of
'right' and 'wrong' on both sides.
dirtdog has also extended the concept of his argument to
include those others call 'terrorists' (again, only 'freedom
fighters' to dirtdog), and those who would use force against
terrorists ('freedom fighters'?). With the former
being 'right' in ALL cases, while the latter being 'wrong'
in all cases. You see, in dirtdog's topsy-turvy world, a
'terrorist' is ALWAYS a simple 'freedom fighter,' while
any innocents, and those who would hope to respond to
those 'freedom fighters' in any way, quite clearly are
both wrong and deserve whatever punishment that
'freedom fighter' provides."
PV
dirtdog
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
<20k self-justificatory _rant_ snipped>
Ho ho ho.
Now that couldn't have gone better, could it?
w00f
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote:
> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote
> in
> message news:jonathan-A7C368...@newsroom.utas.edu.au...
> > In article <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>, "Cerberus"
> > <Cerb...@riverstyx.net> wrote:
> >
> > [snip pointless article]
> >
> > > If the truth is represented by the Sun and Desi is the head of the
> comet
> > > in
> > > orbit around the truth, coming close, but never quite making it. Then
> QZD
> > > is
> > > the tail that always points away from the truth.
> >
> > Yada, yada, yada. You wouldn't know the truth if someone stuffed it up
> > your wrinkled, flappy old arse. An arse, by the way, that has been
> > repeatedly penetrated by the cheesy wheelbarrows of those for whom you
> > repeatedly and obsequiously bend over.
>
> Your comments only prove the point Herbie. Your leftist leanings are only
> relevant because they represent your ambition. No doubt your mentality is
> generated by your situation and your overwhelming need to get out. A
> review
> of the claptrap that represented by your postings over the years
> indicates
> your intelligence. All in all, I think I got it right when I categorised
> you
> as a 'Grey Man' Yep, no need to waste anymore time with you.
>
> WooF w00f WooF
>
> Ps, even your invective is recycled Dirt droppings. Shit, what a loser.
Tell me, was it upsetting for you when you failed to get a place at a
university? The resentment that you hold towards those who did is more
touching than anything else.
Poor little petal.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:11:26 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:03:56 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>>> > minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
>>> > through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
>>> > post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
>>> > went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
>>> > post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
>>> > ally.
>
>>> _Real_ sadness, is witnessing how LDB is presently sucking up to
>>> billytwat ... how low can he get ? No, don't answer that ... :-(
>
>> TRANSLATION -- 'Oh... how I miss dirtdog... but in his absence, will
>> YOU come out and play with me, JPB???'
>
>Really, LDB, I didn't really mean to beat you down so viciously ...
>
>{ snip homoerotic admiration of billytwat, and his elevation to status
> of 'saviour' ... }
>
><fx: shudder ...>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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hosting.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:11:26 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 27
>Message-ID: <slrnaoa4ss.11hk....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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>
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:34:30 +0000
>
>Le 15 Sep 2002 02:31:10 -0700, Just passing by <unimpre...@yahoo.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
>> through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
>> post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
>> went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
>> post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
>> ally.
>
>_Real_ sadness, is witnessing how LDB is presently sucking up to
>billytwat ... how low can he get ? No, don't answer that ... :-(
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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u-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:34:30 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 20
>Message-ID: <slrnao8ohm.vbf.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:ou8aou0vm31cams35...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:42:47 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
>
> <20k self-justificatory _rant_ snipped>
>
> Ho ho ho.
>
'intellect.'
> Now that couldn't have gone better, could it?
>
liar that you are. And I do believe my calling you anti-Semitic, is
now justified as well. The list goes on... Racist... homophobic...
pervert... latex lover... liar... poster boy for the 'war on drugs'... and
now anti-Semite.
PV
> w00f
>
>
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:03:56 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> >> > minor point about a single misplaced word of yours. First trawling
> >> > through the dictionary, then putting together this unnecessarily long
> >> > post. How very much easier it would have been to simply admit that you
> >> > went over the top in praising your occasional ally, not because his
> >> > post deserved such praise, but simply BECAUSE he is your occasional
> >> > ally.
>
> >> _Real_ sadness, is witnessing how LDB is presently sucking up to
> >> billytwat ... how low can he get ? No, don't answer that ... :-(
>
> > TRANSLATION -- 'Oh... how I miss dirtdog... but in his absence, will
> > YOU come out and play with me, JPB???'
>
>
here.
> { snip homoerotic admiration of billytwat, and his elevation to status
> of 'saviour' ... }
>
<belly laugh on>
He spanked you a good one.. and we all saw it. God.. you were
made to look stupid. You can't imagine how good that made me
feel. I admit... I almost wanted to touch his 'thing.' So it's only natural
you'd revert to your 'PV is a homo' routine. But you'd better
check in the next room, because I think dirt is boffing the shit
out of your wife in there. No wonder you rely on the bottle so much.
Damn... this is fun.
BTW -- Quote is a noun. And it 'excreta' not 'execreta' (sic).
<belly laugh off>
> <fx: shudder ...>
>
Yes... just thinking about it, should make you shudder. Go in and
whip his ass. Instead of banging your forehead on the desk.
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S LITTLE PERVERT
Just passing by
> >
> > What I cannot see is, by the criteria you offered, where the post in
> > question differed from almost any other post from any other poster. If
> > you can point to what specifically marks that post out as courageous
> > and separates it, in that respect, from most other posts, do so. But
> > so far you haven't.
> >
> Because it demonstrated a strong 'courage of his convictions' IN MY
> VIEW.
And yet still you seem unable to identify what specifically
distinguishes that post from others you would not describe as
courageous. What I wrote there clearly set out why I believe you have
not made the case for using the word "courage" and yet rather than try
to prove me wrong, your answer serves only to emphasise my point.
You put "IN MY VIEW" in capitals, to tell me that you were simply
stating your own opinion which you are entitled to, and that it is not
my business to tell you what views to hold or what words to use. I
wouldn't dream of trying to do that. So let's do it your way. Please
explain why, in your view, that post was more deserving of being
described as courageous than other posts in this forum are. What I
want to know is what special quality that particular post possesses
that cannot be found in most other posts, and how that particular
quality reflects the courage of the poster.
So all I am doing, PV, is not telling you what words you can use, as
you accused me of doing, but simply asking for your views. One would
have thought you would welcome such interest.
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
<snipped, left the following few lines in as pars pro toto>
>'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
>Muslims over the Jews.'
>Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
>
>'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
>spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
>Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
>The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
As long as no strong *inner-Muslimic* counter-movement to the ideology above
will get its feet on the ground there is no chance to get this hatred under
control. Thus, for to come to a real solution of the conflict it is not
especially useful to glare at the hatemongers, which doubtlessly are present
not too few, but it rather is necessary to get clear *WHY* such hateful
attitudes do function as a "seed". An answer to 'What are the reasons for
terrorism's prosperity?' is what can lead to a solution. What however does
not lead to a solution is to support one side by bashing at the other.
<snip>
....The Jew is ALWAYS wrong, while
>the Palestinian is ALWAYS right, regardless of ANY
>consequences of the acts they take, in that equation.
Nope. You tried repeatedly to put this nonsense in my mouth. So to get it
clear: I am interested in a State of Palestina *and* in the continued
existence of the State of Israel. Furthermore I think Arafat destroyed fully
intentionally the chances once given in Camp David, and I think the
Palestinian terror-attitude essentially contributed to the election of
Sharon.
This however does neither justify decades of suppression nor excuse glaring
mistakes made in the past, and both happened.
>
>dirtdog's views (and FDP's and Jürgen's) represent a
>microcosm of what is WRONG with the entire conflict
>(mainly in the eyes of the typical European - which strikes
>me as anti-Semitic).
Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
Here my POV:
(1) Since being the home of a community for more than half a century Israel
has become indispensible. It would make no sense to fight against a
humanitary catastrophy via substituting it by a new one.
(2) Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going concessions
to the Palestinian people.
Have some Jews committed atrocities?
>Of course. Have some Palestinians committed atrocities?
>Of course.
Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel by the US?
This is exactly why the Western World is called liarish by the Arabs. You,
perfectly represening your entire nation, claim verbally a balanced view,
whilst you simultaneously are supporting and sponsoring the _way_stronger_
side in a bilateral conflict.
I usually play the 'devil's advocate,' here in this
>argument, because there is no balance to the argument (and
>some others as well).
So you demand from anyone balanced posts, while you as self-declared
advocatus diaboli would be allowed to present totally unipolar views? You
are taking a rather easy way, Sir, to say the very least. Indeed I see your
modus operandi as most hypocritical, since a diaboli clearly and declaredly
provokes polarized counter-statements. So either you are an AD, then you
have to be prepared to meet the other side's AD, or you provide balanced
stuff, then you are entitled to expect balanced answers.
I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled in wording and
semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms provided by you
above. Did you hear this statements, too, Mister Diaboli?
...To dirtdog, the Jew is by definition
>'wrong.' The Palestinian is by definition 'right.'<...>
Besides: I recognize that you not only are using the personifications 'The
Jew' for to address the Jews, and 'The Palestinian' for to address the
Palestinians, but that you even spoke of 'The terrorist' in our conversation
[Thread 'War' by John Rennie]. I feel this personifications for dangerous.
They tend to make forget that freely thinking individuals are the grains of
any society, ethnicy or group, and make it easy to judge over an entity by
inherently claiming unanimosity.
J.
dirtdog
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
<fuckwittery snipped>
> And I do believe my calling you anti-Semitic, is
>now justified as well.
Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
again'?
w00f
A Planet Visitor
> Le Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:17:03 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> > The list goes on... Racist... homophobic...
> > pervert... latex lover... liar... poster boy for the 'war on drugs'... and
> > now anti-Semite.
>
>
Hey, you fit right in there, 'Uncle Tom.'
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |JEWISH 'UNCLE TOM' #1
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:31:39 +0000
>
>Le Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:17:03 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>> The list goes on... Racist... homophobic...
>> pervert... latex lover... liar... poster boy for the 'war on drugs'... and
>> now anti-Semite.
>
>Yes, but enough about you, LDB ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:31:39 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 13
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>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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><XV8h9.265351$Rx4.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
><ou8aou0vm31cams35...@4ax.com>
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>Reply-To: pasdespa...@zeouane.org
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A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.0209...@posting.google.com...
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<vQ4h9.264121$Rx4.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
>
> > >
> > > What I cannot see is, by the criteria you offered, where the post in
> > > question differed from almost any other post from any other poster. If
> > > you can point to what specifically marks that post out as courageous
> > > and separates it, in that respect, from most other posts, do so. But
> > > so far you haven't.
> > >
> > Because it demonstrated a strong 'courage of his convictions' IN MY
> > VIEW.
>
>
> And yet still you seem unable to identify what specifically
Define 'specifically,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
> distinguishes that post from others you would not describe as
> courageous. What I wrote there clearly set out why I believe you have
> not made the case
define 'made the case,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
> for using the word "courage" and yet rather than try
> to prove me wrong, your answer serves only to emphasize my point.
>
If you wish to pick out a particular sentence that I saw as 'demonstrating'
the 'courage of his convictions,' it rests in his very last comment -- "Am
I the only one that has observed these un-balanced traits from some
of our European correspondents?"
Whether you AGREE with that, is immaterial. The fact is the
preponderance of posters here are European and many WOULD
equate a U.S. policy that they view with distaste with the 'people'
of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact. In the face of this
preponderance of bias, I find ANY argument which provides a
counter-argument to that to represent the 'courage of conviction' of
the poster. Clearly, since this particular newsgroup's mandate was
originally to express opposition to the DP, I find just about every
argument presented in opposition to that view represents a particular
'courage of conviction.' But certainly the post of Cerberus, was viewed
by me as even more strong in that respect.
> You put "IN MY VIEW" in capitals, to tell me that you were simply
> stating your own opinion which you are entitled to, and that it is not
> my business to tell you what views to hold or what words to use.
Well, thank you kindly. Since I am entitled to those 'views,' I am
also entitled to describe them as I see them. You can 'interpret'
them as you wish. Claiming to see it differently. What you cannot
do, is tell me how I might view a post, or even the words I might use
to describe that post. And certainly you ARE making it your 'business'
to tell me 'what words to use.' Since you said "I believe you have not
made the case for using the word "courage.' The truth is... I don't
NEED to make the case in your view. You simply find your view
differs. If I called it 'a gift from God,' or 'Total shit,' it would make no
difference. Since it's how I saw it. You may well see it differently.
> I
> wouldn't dream of trying to do that.
Define 'dream' for me. Is that somewhat similar to 'out of touch with
reality'?
> So let's do it your way. Please
> explain why, in your view, that post was more deserving of being
> described as courageous than other posts in this forum are. What I
> want to know is what special quality
Define 'special quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
> that particular post possesses
> that cannot be found in most other posts, and how that particular
> quality reflects the courage of the poster.
>
Define 'particular quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
> So all I am doing, PV, is not telling you what words you can use, as
> you accused me of doing, but simply asking for your views. One would
> have thought you would welcome such interest.
>
Oh, but you ARE telling me what words I can use.. I certainly do not
need my post minutely dissected for the EXACT phrase that I saw
demonstrates 'courage of conviction.' I saw it in the ORIGINAL article
as well. I saw it within the entire context of the post. If I had said
'pompous' in respect to THAT post, as the 'pomposity' I now see in
YOUR post, there would have been no remark from you. You disagree
with my CONCLUSION, thus you have decided to try and pick
apart the definition of the word, which I've explained in defining
the way I viewed the post. Just as I view your post as pompous.
Must I also define EXACTLY where I saw THAT in your post?
But join the crowd... there must be at least a dozen of you here.
And it's ALL from the European side, which rather demonstrates
what I originally meant. And what the original poster meant. And
what the original article meant. Your comments here, DO rather
demonstrate exactly the meaning of both the article and the comment
of the original thread. In that respect, you are a microcosm of
the meaning to the article and the post. Finding nothing within that
post which represents my words. You comment gives meaning to
the article. So, let me ask you -- why do you NOT see a 'courage of
conviction' in the post of Cerberus? What do YOU see in it?
I predict YOUR answer will SUPPORT the conclusion reached in the
article.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:glbcouclls69l9n35...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:17:03 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
>
>
> > And I do believe my calling you anti-Semitic, is
> >now justified as well.
>
> Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
> again'?
>
No... you are an anti-Semite because you have lied about my
claiming that 'I will never trust the Palestinians again.' You
see 'evil' in those who would hold for even a small 'right' of Israel
to exist. Nor did I say those words, without saying that I do not
trust the Israelis as well.
Just as with your racist views, you try to portray OTHERS as
what you are. Think hard and long about this. Your entire post
literally reeked with anti-Semitic evil drippings. Implying that
you see me, and by extension everyone, who holds a balanced
view, and has said that the Palestinians are unreasonable, as
Jew-lovers. And what's always 'funny' is that the denials are
always accompanied by a huge clip of the post in question.
Know thyself, dirt... know thyself.
PV
> w00f
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:am53vc$m9s$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
> <snipped, left the following few lines in as pars pro toto>
>
> >'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
> >Muslims over the Jews.'
> >Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
> >
> >'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
> >spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
> >Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
> >The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> As long as no strong *inner-Muslimic* counter-movement to the ideology above
> will get its feet on the ground there is no chance to get this hatred under
> control. Thus, for to come to a real solution of the conflict it is not
> especially useful to glare at the hatemongers, which doubtlessly are present
> not too few, but it rather is necessary to get clear *WHY* such hateful
> attitudes do function as a "seed". An answer to 'What are the reasons for
> terrorism's prosperity?' is what can lead to a solution. What however does
> not lead to a solution is to support one side by bashing at the other.
>
that you can't read rather PLAIN English? Do you REALLY think
this will 'go away' suddenly?
> <snip>
>
> ....The Jew is ALWAYS wrong, while
> >the Palestinian is ALWAYS right, regardless of ANY
> >consequences of the acts they take, in that equation.
>
> Nope. You tried repeatedly to put this nonsense in my mouth.
No... you've put it there yourself. Just as with the DP, you twist
your words from moment to moment. Does the Jew have a
'right' to self-defense from terrorists? Does the Jew have a
'right' to pursue those who would commit terrorist acts? Plain
and simple.
> So to get it
> clear: I am interested in a State of Palestina *and* in the continued
> existence of the State of Israel. Furthermore I think Arafat destroyed fully
> intentionally the chances once given in Camp David, and I think the
> Palestinian terror-attitude essentially contributed to the election of
> Sharon.
> This however does neither justify decades of suppression nor excuse glaring
> mistakes made in the past, and both happened.
>
I never said it did. There can be no justifying mistakes which
cost lives. On BOTH sides. I've been saying all along, that
Sharon was a CREATION of the Palestinian. In that particular
case.. the Palestinian was his own worst enemy. Do you actually
sometimes READ my words?
> >
> >dirtdog's views (and FDP's and Jürgen's) represent a
> >microcosm of what is WRONG with the entire conflict
> >(mainly in the eyes of the typical European - which strikes
> >me as anti-Semitic).
>
> Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
> Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
>
No.. who dares criticize without viewing the problem from both sides
of the issue, is either Anti-Semitic or stupid. Depending on their
motivations. To take the Jewish side in total, is one of the more
stupid things I believe the U.S. could do. Nor do I believe She does
so. To take the Palestinian side in total, I believe has great roots
in anti-Semitism. I think this is the PERCEPTION which has been
engendered in the European mentality, because they expect 'big
brother' to solve the problem. While they don't feel they actually
have to do much of anything.
I've already went through the many efforts, over the course of many
years that the U.S. has made to form a peace process. I have still
to hear from you, what particular effort Germany has made in those
many years.
> Here my POV:
>
> (1) Since being the home of a community for more than half a century Israel
> has become indispensible. It would make no sense to fight against a
> humanitary catastrophy via substituting it by a new one.
> (2) Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
> the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going concessions
> to the Palestinian people.
>
You know what is apparent in that POV -- Clearly you DENY
Israel's right to exist, but consider it a fait accompi, and thus
must be 'tolerated.' A rather grudging admission, somewhat
on the order of 'better there, then back in Germany, if that's the
only alternative.' That isn't the way we treat a people. And
actually, in respect to the Jew, Germany has a great unfilled
obligation, still outstanding. Do you know what the population
of Israel is at present? 6.5 million. Does that have a familiar
ring to it?
> >Have some Jews committed atrocities?
> >Of course. Have some Palestinians committed atrocities?
> >Of course.
>
> Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel by the US?
What a crock of shit. In EVERY case, I have over and over, held
that neither side holds my 'support.' Clearly YOUR support, in every
instance, even above, is patently BIASED (and tinged with anti-Semitism)
FOR the Palestinian side.
> This is exactly why the Western World is called liarish by the Arabs. You,
> perfectly represening your entire nation, claim verbally a balanced view,
> whilst you simultaneously are supporting and sponsoring the _way_stronger_
> side in a bilateral conflict.
>
Have you even TRIED to read the sources I provided? Obviously not.
Anyone who believes that Israel's existence is NOT THREATENED
by those sources, is a damn fool. And the Jews are no fools.
Without clear assurances of their CONTINUED existence, the Jew
is in fear of his destruction from forces much larger (not yet stronger)
than what he possesses. Tell me... should forces allied themselves
against Israel (as has happened before - and no one did anything);
and invade Israel, and it would appear that Israel is being overcome;
do you for ONE MOMENT believe that Germany would introduce
its FORCES into protecting Israel? Not a fucking chance. It's
bye-bye Israel. I have shown you how the Jew views the scenario
without a firm peace in place that GUARANTEES Israel's existence
http://www.netreach.net/~zoa/media/peace.html
> > I usually play the 'devil's advocate,' here in this
> >argument, because there is no balance to the argument (and
> >some others as well).
>
> So you demand from anyone balanced posts, while you as self-declared
> advocatus diaboli would be allowed to present totally unipolar views? You
> are taking a rather easy way, Sir, to say the very least. Indeed I see your
> modus operandi as most hypocritical, since a diaboli clearly and declaredly
> provokes polarized counter-statements. So either you are an AD, then you
> have to be prepared to meet the other side's AD, or you provide balanced
> stuff, then you are entitled to expect balanced answers.
>
Too bad that you are unable to take a 'balanced' view.
> I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled in wording and
> semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms provided by you
> above. Did you hear this statements, too, Mister Diaboli?
>
Not hardly. I'd like to see a Jewish statement that declares the
DESTRUCTION of all ISLAM and EVERY MUSLIM is their purpose.
> ...To dirtdog, the Jew is by definition
>
> >'wrong.' The Palestinian is by definition 'right.'<...>
>
Who the hell even knows what you're saying there, or how you
clipped what from where. It seems to be artificially constructed.
Although, I believe how you arranged it represents my view of how
dirtdog sees the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I really wish you'd
watch how you clip the >, so I can see what's mine and what's
yours.
> Besides: I recognize that you not only are using the personifications 'The
> Jew' for to address the Jews, and 'The Palestinian' for to address the
> Palestinians, but that you even spoke of 'The terrorist' in our conversation
> [Thread 'War' by John Rennie]. I feel this personifications for dangerous.
> They tend to make forget that freely thinking individuals are the grains of
> any society, ethnicy or group, and make it easy to judge over an entity by
> inherently claiming unanimosity.
>
I've tired of you, Jürgen. You simply clip my arguments, and then
present a biased counterargument... much as you do with the DP
argument. It's really deceptive of you. All the sources I've provided
you simply did not respond to them, but clipped them. I find it
necessary to repost them over and over, simply because you ignore
them. And I get tired of doing it, in the face of your irrationality.
And all the sources that demonstrate the latent anti-Semitism which
still remains in Europe and especially Germany. Today on the 6:30
NBC news, it was reported that 30% of Germans in a poll conducted,
believe the Jew is again, too pervasive in Germany... what is the
MATTER with you people?
You accuse the U.S. of creating a 53rd State of Israel. That's the
greatest hypocrisy you committed in this thread, and literally drove
me apeshit, when I COMPARE your nation and mine, in the
examination of the efforts made by our two nations toward resolving
this conflict. See the list that you again conveniently clipped. If you
would see Israel as the 53rd State of the U.S., let me clearly say
that I see the Rheinland-Pfalz as a satellite of the Palestinian nation,
with BASF as its headquarters. And Bavaria with some still strong
roots to Fascism. Clearly, the anti-Semitism that ran red with the
blood of millions only a few short decades ago, seems to be on the
rise in Germany. You've turned every reasonable view I've offered
into an attack on the U.S., while trying to absolve your nation, while
it has done NOTHING in respect to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
And now you rather hypocritically, and presuming you are pious,
claim that you feel your 'argument' represents some sort of balance.
Look at this, for more on your country's growing problem --
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,719537,00.html
PV
> J.
>
>
>
>
Cerberus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:nyzh9.53374$R7.12...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...> >{much Clippage}
> I've tired of you, Jürgen. You simply clip my arguments, and then
> present a biased counterargument... much as you do with the DP
> argument. It's really deceptive of you. All the sources I've provided
> you simply did not respond to them, but clipped them. I find it
> necessary to repost them over and over, simply because you ignore
> them. And I get tired of doing it, in the face of your irrationality.
> And all the sources that demonstrate the latent anti-Semitism which
> still remains in Europe and especially Germany. Today on the 6:30
> NBC news, it was reported that 30% of Germans in a poll conducted,
> believe the Jew is again, too pervasive in Germany... what is the
> MATTER with you people?
>
PV, I am convinced that Jurgen does not speak English very well. He appears
to use a translator with predictable results. I have spoken to him a couple
of time using my very average German, and I am positive that this is the
case. His understanding of English also fluctuates according to how his
argument is faring. Watch the blood pressure.
Woof w00f WooF
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
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Just passing by
disappointed. If you can't handle the simple tasks like this one, how
can we have any confidence in your ability to deal with the far more
perilous dangers you have appointed yourself to defend us from in your
role as saviour of the world? I refer to comments of yours such as the
following to Desmond:
"... because you're evil... and I'm the 'Force for Good' in this
group. Without me, you might be allowed to perpetrate your evil on the
unsuspecting."
Taken with numerous other similar comments you have made, it is clear
that there is no tongue-in-cheek sense in those words - you are deadly
serious when you write those things. You see yourself not as just
someone who enjoys using the internet to exchange views and discuss
various topics, but as a kind of Dr. Van Helsing character, on some
mission to save mankind from an evil force that would otherwise
advance ever closer on its inexorable march of destruction, until
finally engulfing the whole world with plagues of pain, despair and
death from the very gates of Hell.
So, PV, get a grip on yourself. You are our only hope against the
forces of darkness. Go forth with great "courage". Keep that garlic
around your bedroom window, the crucifix by your side and the wooden
stake close at hand ready to plunge through the heart of the evil
Count Desi when he next emerges from his castle in the mountains, and
end forever his reign of terror as the prince of the undead.
dirtdog
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
>
>"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:glbcouclls69l9n35...@4ax.com...
<snipped>
>>
>> Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
>> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
>> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
>> again'?
>>
>
>No... you are an anti-Semite because you have lied about my
>claiming that 'I will never trust the Palestinians again.'
Not that the above reason to allege anti-Semitism is anything other
than the usual idiotic PV turd, allow me to remind you of what you did
say, in all its glorious and shameful detail (which is actually more
damning than my rather generous paraphrase):
"Witness the new generation now
being spawned in Palestine. Dancing in the streets over the deaths
of 10,000 humans."
"Will I EVER be able to believe that
the Palestinians are REASONABLE in any dispute they may have
with ANY other people concerning what they view as rightfully
theirs? NOT A CHANCE. I may still believe that they have such
rights, in some small part. But I will NEVER AGAIN, believe that
they are REASONABLE"
Arab children are 'spawned'?!?
If I were you, I should hang my head in shame.
<hilariously daft section in which PV bemoans my devotion to the cause
of the Palestinians despite my having _never_ commented upon the
Middle East conflict in this group snipped>
w00f
dirtdog
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
<snipped>
>Cerberus
>insulted me, dirt, and QZD.
Desmond. He called us 'spaniels'.
I think 'insult' is a little extreme.
w00f
dirtdog
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:24:36 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
>>> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
>>> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
>>> again'?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> You see 'evil' in those who would hold for even a small 'right' of
>> Israel to exist.
>
>Could you remind us of where dirt said that those who believe in the
>right of existence for Israel, are 'evil', please ?
>
I'll do better than that, Desmond. I shall actually lead you to the
only post where I have _ever_ used the word 'Israel' in this
newsgroup!
I said this:
"The average Yank, PV, probably could not even point out Israel on a
map, unless they were Jewish."
What a fucking _evil_ anti-Semite I am"
Try it..
israel+author:dirtdog
Ho ho ho. PV is a fuckwit!
John Rennie
>
It is not anti-Semitic to query the tragic blunder of
allowing Israel to be created, it is, however,
anti-Zionist and the two are more and more confused.
AFAIK I am the only poster who has queried the historical 'right'
for the existence of Israel but even that argument belongs firmly in the
past. The fact, not right, of Israel existence is undeniable
and if its existence is threatened, then we are all threatened.
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
<snip>
>> Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
>> Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
>>
>No.. who dares criticize without viewing the problem from both sides
>of the issue, is either Anti-Semitic or stupid. Depending on their
>motivations. To take the Jewish side in total, is one of the more
>stupid things I believe the U.S. could do. Nor do I believe She does
>so.
That's American humor, I guess?
>> Here my POV:
>>
>> (1) Since being the home of a community for more than half a century
Israel
>> has become indispensible. It would make no sense to fight against a
>> humanitary catastrophy via substituting it by a new one.
>> (2) Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure
to
>> the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going
concessions
>> to the Palestinian people.
>>
>You know what is apparent in that POV -- Clearly you DENY
>Israel's right to exist, but consider it a fait accompi, and thus
>must be 'tolerated.'
I gave my reason why Israel has not less than a right to exist. Assuming you
mean a 'fait accompli' and claim this sort of reasoning not enough, I am
awaiting your proper derivation of Israel's right to exist on the ground
from which the Palestinians had been driven away.
<snip>
>I've tired of you, Jürgen. You simply clip my arguments, ....
I am consequently snipping your straw people, as I got not the time to go
through your selective reading and your larmoyant accusative moralizations
built upon your own dishonest and projective ideas about other's
standpoints. I did this way enough.
J.
Jürgen
Cerberus schrieb in Nachricht <3d86c...@goliath.newsgroups.com>...
>
>PV, I am convinced that Jurgen does not speak English very well. He appears
>to use a translator with predictable results.
The 'translator' which I have occasionally to consult is a medium-thick
dictionary, which meanwhile begins for several missing pages with the word
'advent'.
J.
Just passing by
> >
> > And yet still you seem unable to identify what specifically
>
> Define 'specifically,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
As opposed to generally. It would be very easy to simply say: "I found
the whole post courageous." What I was asking you to do was point
to which element(s)of the post qualified it as courageous, and why.
> > distinguishes that post from others you would not describe as
> > courageous. What I wrote there clearly set out why I believe you have
> > not made the case
>
> define 'made the case,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
Making the case would include the above specific references to the key
elements and then showing how these elements are absent from other
posts that you don't call courageous.
>
> If you wish to pick out a particular sentence that I saw as 'demonstrating'
> the 'courage of his convictions,' it rests in his very last comment -- "Am
> I the only one that has observed these un-balanced traits from some
> of our European correspondents?"
>
> Whether you AGREE with that, is immaterial. The fact is the
> preponderance of posters here are European and many WOULD
> equate a U.S. policy that they view with distaste with the 'people'
> of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact. In the face of this
> preponderance of bias, I find ANY argument which provides a
> counter-argument to that to represent the 'courage of conviction' of
> the poster.
That is much better; I just wonder why you didn't say it the first
time I asked you to.
> Clearly, since this particular newsgroup's mandate was
> originally to express opposition to the DP, I find just about every
> argument presented in opposition to that view represents a particular
> 'courage of conviction.' But certainly the post of Cerberus, was viewed
> by me as even more strong in that respect.
OK, that is clear now. But I still think you are over the top in using
the word "courage" in any sense of the word, in respect of a mere
newsgroup message. There may be a few exceptions, such as if someone
in, say, Iraq or China risked criticising their government in a
newsgroup. That would be courageous.
>
> > You put "IN MY VIEW" in capitals, to tell me that you were simply
> > stating your own opinion which you are entitled to, and that it is not
> > my business to tell you what views to hold or what words to use.
>
> Well, thank you kindly. Since I am entitled to those 'views,' I am
> also entitled to describe them as I see them. You can 'interpret'
> them as you wish. Claiming to see it differently. What you cannot
> do, is tell me how I might view a post, or even the words I might use
> to describe that post.
I have never tried to do that. What I wanted to know was WHY you used
that word. If the manner of my request suggested any more than that to
you, perhaps it was because, until now, you have seemed so reluctant
to answer.
> And certainly you ARE making it your 'business'
> to tell me 'what words to use.' Since you said "I believe you have not
> made the case for using the word "courage.' The truth is... I don't
> NEED to make the case in your view.
You can believe this or not, but after I wrote that "made the case"
line, I looked at it and just knew you would seize upon it. I was
tempted to replace those words with others that would not offer you
the same opportunity, but decided against it. To be honest, I expected
you to make more of it than you have done. I expected far more words
in capitals and at the very least, "ROTFLMAO" to have appeared
somewhere.
> > I wouldn't dream of trying to do that.
>
> Define 'dream' for me. Is that somewhat similar to 'out of touch with
> reality'?
It was used in a figurative sense, meaning not only would I not do
that whilst conscious, but not even when not.
> > So let's do it your way. Please
> > explain why, in your view, that post was more deserving of being
> > described as courageous than other posts in this forum are. What I
> > want to know is what special quality
>
> Define 'special quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
Special as in peculiar to that particular post or at the very least
not found in most others.
>
> > that particular post possesses
> > that cannot be found in most other posts, and how that particular
> > quality reflects the courage of the poster.
> >
>
> Define 'particular quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
I was asking WHY the particular quality REFLECTED courage of
conviction, not FOR a particular quality OF courage of conviction.
>
> > So all I am doing, PV, is not telling you what words you can use, as
> > you accused me of doing, but simply asking for your views. One would
> > have thought you would welcome such interest.
> >
>
> Oh, but you ARE telling me what words I can use.. I certainly do not
> need my post minutely dissected for the EXACT phrase that I saw
> demonstrates 'courage of conviction.' I saw it in the ORIGINAL article
> as well. I saw it within the entire context of the post. If I had said
> 'pompous' in respect to THAT post, as the 'pomposity' I now see in
> YOUR post, there would have been no remark from you. You disagree
> with my CONCLUSION, thus you have decided to try and pick
> apart the definition of the word, which I've explained in defining
> the way I viewed the post.
You have now, but again one wonders why you didn't before. Perhaps it
was because you originally used the word "courage" without really
thinking about it, but only now, having spent some time re-reading the
post purely for the purpose of looking for something that might
remotely fit that description, have you been able to produce that "Am
I the only one ...." sentence as a convenient example.
> Just as I view your post as pompous.
> Must I also define EXACTLY where I saw THAT in your post?
If you wish, and by all means include the above paragraph I have just
written if you think it qualifies.
> But join the crowd... there must be at least a dozen of you here.
> And it's ALL from the European side, which rather demonstrates
> what I originally meant. And what the original poster meant. And
> what the original article meant. Your comments here, DO rather
> demonstrate exactly the meaning of both the article and the comment
> of the original thread. In that respect, you are a microcosm of
> the meaning to the article and the post. Finding nothing within that
> post which represents my words. You comment gives meaning to
> the article. So, let me ask you -- why do you NOT see a 'courage of
> conviction' in the post of Cerberus? What do YOU see in it?
The reason I don't see any reason to single out Cerberus for any
praise regarding his courage of conviction is because there is nothing
out of the ordinary in his post. He holds a view about what he sees as
bigotry against Americans and so posted an article that broadly
reflected that view, followed by comments of his own. If everyone who
did no more than that was immediately fawned over and praised for
their "courage", that would soon become the most overused and
inappropriately used word on usenet.
My view of the article is that it was very good and I agreed with most
of it, but, as with Cerberus, I wouldn't go over the top by remarking
on the writer's "courage".
>
> I predict YOUR answer will SUPPORT the conclusion reached in the
> article.
And I predict that in spite of my answer doing no such thing, you will
not have the humility to admit your prediction was wrong.
Happy vampire hunting.
Just passing by
> The 'translator' which I have occasionally to consult is a medium-thick
> dictionary, which meanwhile begins for several missing pages with the word
> 'advent'.
>
Jurgen, I recommend a software product called Systran which will
translate numerous languages into one another. It is not always
perfect but facilitates a good general understanding of text written
in languages with which one is unfamiliar. I used to post messages in
a Spanish forum and although I don't know any Spanish, Systran enabled
me to both read and write the language sufficiently to exchange
messages with others.
However, I think your English is very good. I have been very impressed
with your posts here.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote:
The poor fellow is still in denial about his failing to obtain a
tertiary education.
In order to make up for his manifest inadequacies, he prefers to spout
bollocks about having met Bill Clinton (boopy-twang!) and babble on
about what an "impressive" man he was.
Loserama, I'm afraid. Loserama.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
> Dr. Van Helsing
ITYM, "Dr Van Helsing".
The punctuation is not required (and, indeed is incorrect) when the last
letter of the abbreviated word terminates the abbreviation.
[snip remainder of an argument into which I no longer wish to venture]
Mr Q. Z. D., helpful.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
You do well for a non-native speaker. Your English is better than my
non-existent German, for a start!
Mr Q. Z. D.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:24:11 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:12:12 +0100, dirtdog <dir...@fruffrant.com> a écrit
>:
>>>Cerberus
>>>insulted me, dirt, and QZD.
>
>> Desmond. He called us 'spaniels'.
>
>*sob*
>
>> I think 'insult' is a little extreme.
>
>I sit corrected.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:24:11 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 17
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:24:30 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:24:54 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>> It is not anti-Semitic to query the tragic blunder of
>> allowing Israel to be created, it is, however,
>> anti-Zionist and the two are more and more confused.
>> AFAIK I am the only poster who has queried the historical 'right'
>> for the existence of Israel but even that argument belongs firmly in the
>> past. The fact, not right, of Israel existence is undeniable
>> and if its existence is threatened, then we are all threatened.
>
>Well said.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:24:30 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:36:58 +0000
>
>Le Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:16:16 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Really, LDB, I didn't really mean to beat you down so viciously ...
>
>> Don't flatter yourself, sport. We all know who has been beaten down
>> here.
>
>Yep, and with the exception of your personal arse licker, the verdict
>isn't at all favourable to you ... but try not to get angry again, and
>put your fist through the screen, like last time. Hint: because you
>read my words on your screen, it _doesn't_ mean that there's a smaller
>version of me inside the monitor, all right ? Oh, and yes, people can
>hear you, even when you put your hands over your ears before screaming.
>Now get off your knees, you intellectual dwarf, and stick to using
>verbs as nouns. Take my 'advise' (sic), LDB ... you can't 'insure'
>that we shan't laugh at you ... ho, ho, ho ...
>
>{ snip LDB's declarations of 'love' ... }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:36:58 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:23:49 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:33:20 +0100, dirtdog <dir...@fruffrant.com> a écrit
>:
>>>>> Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
>>>>> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
>>>>> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
>>>>> again'?
>
>>>> You see 'evil' in those who would hold for even a small 'right' of
>>>> Israel to exist.
>
>>>Could you remind us of where dirt said that those who believe in the
>>>right of existence for Israel, are 'evil', please ?
>
>> I'll do better than that, Desmond. I shall actually lead you to the
>> only post where I have _ever_ used the word 'Israel' in this
>> newsgroup!
>>
>> I said this:
>>
>> "The average Yank, PV, probably could not even point out Israel on a
>> map, unless they were Jewish."
>>
>> What a fucking _evil_ anti-Semite I am"
>
>How can you sleep at night ?
>
>> Try it..
>>
>> www.google.com
>>
>> israel+author:dirtdog
>>
>> Ho ho ho. PV is a fuckwit!
>
>Isn't that another tautology ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:23:49 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:42:53 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:28:21 +0100, dirtdog <dir...@fruffrant.com> a écrit
>:
>{ snip }
>
>>>No... you are an anti-Semite because you have lied about my
>>>claiming that 'I will never trust the Palestinians again.'
>
>> Not that the above reason to allege anti-Semitism is anything other
>> than the usual idiotic PV turd, allow me to remind you of what you did
>> say, in all its glorious and shameful detail (which is actually more
>> damning than my rather generous paraphrase):
>>
>> "Witness the new generation now
>> being spawned in Palestine. Dancing in the streets over the deaths
>> of 10,000 humans."
>>
>> "Will I EVER be able to believe that
>> the Palestinians are REASONABLE in any dispute they may have
>> with ANY other people concerning what they view as rightfully
>> theirs? NOT A CHANCE. I may still believe that they have such
>> rights, in some small part. But I will NEVER AGAIN, believe that
>> they are REASONABLE"
>>
>>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl61149995d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF
-8&selm=2b9o7.148686%24aZ.22227043%40typhoon.tampabay.rr.com&rnum=18
>>
>> Arab children are 'spawned'?!?
>>
>> If I were you, I should hang my head in shame.
>
>Oh dear, he really should, shouldn't he ? The question is: does he
>_have_ any shame ? Judging by the bare-faced lies, abuse, threats,
>emotional blackmail, and sucking up to John and billytwat in here ...
>the answer is no.
>
>Perhaps LDB thinks that if he tells the same lie often enough, people
>will believe it. Maybe he thinks that if he clamps his hands over his ears
>whilst lying, it's like 'The Tinkerbell Effect', and it's 'not really a
>lie, because the others can't hear it'.
>
>{ snip }
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:42:53 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:06:13 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:24:36 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Forgive my responding to your rather transparent troll, PV, but are
>>> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
>>> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
>>> again'?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> You see 'evil' in those who would hold for even a small 'right' of
>> Israel to exist.
>
>Could you remind us of where dirt said that those who believe in the
>right of existence for Israel, are 'evil', please ?
>
>> Nor did I say those words, without saying that I do not
>> trust the Israelis as well.
>
>In other words, you did say them. Besides, you're the last one who
>should be whining that someone attributed words to you. You, after
>all, are the pathological liar who claimed that I 'prefer' two-year-
>old girls to be murdered.
>
>> Just as with your racist views, you try to portray OTHERS as
>> what you are.
>
>The mirror, LDB ... look in the mirror ... and stop pointing at
>the 'silver bird' ... the 'Select Few' won't save you this time,
>LDB ... you should have followed their 'advice' (sic) ...
>
>> Think hard and long about this. Your entire post
>> literally reeked with anti-Semitic evil drippings.
>
>Once again, imposing your moral values on others, through emotional
>blackmail when it works, and abuse and threats when it won't.
>
>Now if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times ... get off
>your knees and stop snivelling.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:06:13 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:56:43 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:14:45 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Whether you AGREE with that, is immaterial. The fact is the
>> preponderance of posters here are European
>
>I don't wish to get involved with what constitutes 'courage' in this
>particular argument, if for no other reason than everyone on this
>newsgroup knows that you used the word 'courage', because Cerberus
>insulted me, dirt, and QZD. You've been getting kicked up and down
>the newsgroup so much the past few months, that even the slightest
>inkling of 'support', causes you to jump on the poster, and virtually
>ram your tongue down his throat. There is _no_ doubt about that.
>
>However, I'm intrigued by your claim that most of the posters here are
>European. Without going to google and counting them, I'd say that
>we have the following European posters: me, dirt, incubus, Jürgen,
>Hugh, and John 'I-Love-PV' Rennie. Have I missed any ? *shrugs* Maybe.
>
>On the other hand, the Americans posting are you, Richard, billytwat,
>Vlad, Jigsaw, pd (I _think_ he's American), Sharp, Keith, Donna and
>Earl (yes, they're naturalised French, but then you're naturalised
>American, and so we don't distinguish between the two), and General
>'Zob'. Again, I probably missed one or two whose posts I don't
>read. So that's six Europeans, and _at least_ ten Americans.
>
>Interesting that you should consider that there are more Europeans than
>Americans. Feeling persecuted, I imagine ... poor baby ... you've
>_really_ been having a bad time of it lately. *sniff* What's that
>burning smell coming from your arse ..?
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:56:43 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 39
>Message-ID: <slrnaoe2ja.17hs....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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A Planet Visitor
> Le Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:16:16 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
>
> > Don't flatter yourself, sport. We all know who has been beaten down
> > here.
>
> Yep, and with the exception of your personal arse licker, the verdict
> isn't at all favourable to you ... but try not to get angry again, and
> put your fist through the screen, like last time. Hint: because you
> read my words on your screen, it _doesn't_ mean that there's a smaller
> version of me inside the monitor, all right ? Oh, and yes, people can
> hear you, even when you put your hands over your ears before screaming.
> Now get off your knees, you intellectual dwarf, and stick to using
> verbs as nouns. Take my 'advise' (sic), LDB ... you can't 'insure'
> that we shan't laugh at you ... ho, ho, ho ...
>
> { snip LDB's declarations of 'love' ... }
I'll declare it again, FDP... I love it when you talk dirty... It shows me
that you're trying to come out of the depression that has surrounded
you since your broken relationship. Let's see... your total
'argument' (sic) is
1) advise
2) insure
3) Who knows.
Truth be told, you're not very good when it comes to fact -- (Oops...
actually you're not worth a damn when it comes to fiction as well).
Certainly quote is a noun... you said it wasn't. Certainly 'execreta' (sic)
was a PURPOSEFUL LIE. Of course, the list is long on my end.
But you have 'advise' and 'insure' to keep repeating. And not much
else. BTW -- spank... spank... spank... just on 'general principles.'
PV
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S LITTLE PUPPET
A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
Ummm... have you been drinking with the boys again? Are you
now doubting your own leaders? Is the beer that strong in England?
See --
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020726-98861174.htm
I AM 'The force for Good.' Of course, YOU personally are simply
in love with the 'Great White Whale.'
___|___
|
^
PV
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:87eeouka31ksn171i...@4ax.com...
From Palestinian school books ==
'It is a self-sacrifice, when a Muslim dies, while doing Allah's will (...).
A person, who dies in this way, is called a martyr (...). Self-sacrifice
for Allah is a hope for those, who believe in Allah and trust in his
promises. The martyr is glad, full of ecstasy, that he will go into the
paradise, which Allah has prepared for him.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, P. 112.
'The Muslim sacrifices himself for his faith and fights a Holy War
for Allah. He does not know cowardice, because he understands
that the time of his death has already been determined and that
it is better to die as a martyr on the battleground, than to die in bed.'
Islamic education for the 8th Class, P. 176.
'... Fighters and martyrs of the Holy War are the most honorable
persons after the prophets.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 103.
'I will take my soul into my own hand and hurl it (in the war) into
the abyss of death (...). You know, I do see my own death and
march toward it fast (...). You know - That is the death of men
and of the one (...), seeking an honorable death - that is death
pure and simple.'
Song of the martyrs, from: Our Arabic language for the 5th Class,
P. 60 and guide for the improvement of the Arabic language for
the 12th Class, P. 84.
'... The youth will not be fatigued, it will want to be either free or to
die. We scoop our water out of death. And we will not be slaves of
the enemies. Our symbol is the 'sword' and the 'feather', but not
'words'.'
My homeland, from: Palestinian national education for the 1st Class,
P. 67-68." - Gal Ben Ari (2002: 39, 40).
'The holy war is a religious obligation for each Muslim man and each
Muslim woman.'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, P. 167.
'Know this, my son, that Palestine is your country (...), its entire
earth has been soaked with the blood of the martyrs. Why do we have
to fight (against the Jews) and drive them from our country?'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, part I, P. 64-66." - Gal Ben
Ari (2002:43).
'My brothers! The suppressors (the Israelis) have crossed the borders.
Therefore Holy War and self-sacrifice are an obligation! (...) Should
we allow them to steal our Arab nature? (...) Draw your sword! Let us
collect for this with red blood and kindled fire. (...) Death will call the
sword and it will become mad from so many battles. Oh, Palestine,
your youth will save your country.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 120-122." - Gal
Ben Ari (2002:44).
'... in your left hand you carried the Koran, and in your right hand
an Arab sword (...) Not one centimeter (= of the land) will be freed
without blood. Therefore, go forward, and shout: Allah is great!'
Bayonet and torches, from: Reading book & literary texts for the 10th
Class, P. 131-135.
'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
Muslims over the Jews.'
Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
> If I were you, I should hang my head in shame.
Don't even try to tell me that Palestinian children are not spawned
in hate. It's you who should hang his head in shame. With your
obviously unbalance perspective in this conflict, and your rage
about me personally having so often taken you to task for
just about every word you've provided here. That rage and frustration
has actually caused you to lose all perspective.
>
> <hilariously daft section in which PV bemoans my devotion to the cause
> of the Palestinians despite my having _never_ commented upon the
> Middle East conflict in this group snipped>
>
PV
> w00f
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
> Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:14:45 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Whether you AGREE with that, is immaterial. The fact is the
> > preponderance of posters here are European
>
> I don't wish to get involved with what constitutes 'courage' in this
> particular argument,
Sure you do.. quit lying.
> if for no other reason than everyone on this
> newsgroup knows that you used the word 'courage', because Cerberus
> insulted me, dirt, and QZD.
That only requires common sense.
> You've been getting kicked up and down
> the newsgroup so much the past few months, that even the slightest
> inkling of 'support', causes you to jump on the poster, and virtually
> ram your tongue down his throat. There is _no_ doubt about that.
>
la de da... You keep saying it. And you keep repeating your
only ammunition is supposedly 'advise' and 'insure.' BFD.
You should work harder on your 'people skills' FDP. They let
you down badly in this group, and presumably it washes over
into your real life, if the recent evidence uncovered is an clue.
I need to tell you again -- the news of that failed marriage (who
many kids where there?) solves many answers for me. It's well known
that people coming from failed relationships (more than 1???), have
great difficulty connecting with people. Chee... your behavior is much
clearer now
> However, I'm intrigued by your claim that most of the posters here are
> European. Without going to google and counting them, I'd say that
> we have the following European posters: me, dirt, incubus, Jürgen,
> Hugh, and John 'I-Love-PV' Rennie. Have I missed any ? *shrugs* Maybe.
>
Have you tried out for the accountant position in Enron??
Peter Morris... St. George... Just Passing By... Keith Luscombe...
Cerberus Plus Mr Diablo... John Spragge... both non-Americans and both
expressing their views in a distinct European flavor.
> On the other hand, the Americans posting are you, Richard, billytwat,
> Vlad, Jigsaw, pd (I _think_ he's American), Sharp, Keith, Donna and
> Earl (yes, they're naturalised French, but then you're naturalised
> American, and so we don't distinguish between the two), and General
> 'Zob'. Again, I probably missed one or two whose posts I don't
> read. So that's six Europeans, and _at least_ ten Americans.
>
Vlad is not American. He's Dutch. Nor is Keith (what the hell??).
And trying to call Earl and Donna American, is like trying to call bin Laden
the Pope. The Americans here who express an American viewpoint are
Jigsaw - Pro-DP
Richard - Pro-DP
William Robert - Pro-DP (???) I think he just doesn't like you, and some
other Europeans and Australians here.
PV - Pro-DP
PD - New here - no telling how long - Anti-DP
Sharp - Hardly relevant - since he doesn't engage in argument as a rule.
GeneralZod - has two posts here - neither related to the DP
So --- Given that I'm not sure Cerberus is European (I believe so),
nor am I that sure he is pro-DP (I think he is not - he just doesn't
like you and dirt and Mr. D), what we ACTUALLY have is hard-core
contributors of European flavor 15
Desipoo - Anti
dirt - Anti
Jürgen -Anti
John 'lovable' Rennie - Anti
Hugh - Anti
Earl - Anti
Donna - Anti
Peter Morris - Anti
St. George - Anti
Just Passing By - Anti
Keith Luscombe - Anti
Mr Diablo - Anti
John Spragge - Anti
incubus - Pro
Vlad - Pro
American flavor 7 ---
Richard - Pro
Jigsaw - Pro
PV - Pro
Sharp - Pro -- Hardly relevant - since he doesn't engage in argument as a rule.
PD - Anti -
Yours Most truly - Anti
GeneralZod - has two posts here - neither related to the DP. More
concerned with opposition to gun control - but I'll give him to you as a pro
William Robert - I think he just doesn't like you, and Europeans
in general. I give him as a pro as well
(it would seem those two are actually anti-Desmond more than anything
else - which should tell you something).
And the unknown --
Cerberus - I believe he is European and I don't know whether he is
pro or anti -- he doesn't like you, dirt and Mr D. either.
So given these names we have
15 European flavor 13 Anti 2 Pro
8 American flavor 2 Anti 6 Pro
And Cerberus.
In fact the European outnumber the Americans 15 to 8, and
the Antis also outnumber the Pros 15 to 8.
> Interesting that you should consider that there are more Europeans than
> Americans. Feeling persecuted, I imagine ... poor baby ... you've
> _really_ been having a bad time of it lately. *sniff* What's that
> burning smell coming from your arse ..?
>
No... simply counting is all. I loved the way you 'counted' Vlad,
Keith, Donna and Earl as Americans. None of them live in
America.
spank... spank... spank.
PV
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S PANTING PUPPET
A Planet Visitor
> Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:24:36 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> you trying to allege that I am anti-semitic because I have not
> >> expressed the sentiment that 'I will never trust the Palestinians
> >> again'?
>
>
> > You see 'evil' in those who would hold for even a small 'right' of
> > Israel to exist.
>
> Could you remind us of where dirt said that those who believe in the
> right of existence for Israel, are 'evil', please ?
>
LYING about my words - claiming I had said I'd NEVER trust
the Palestinians again. When I had said I cannot trust EITHER
side. I had said after 9-11, that I could never find the
Palestinians 'reasonable' again, because of old ladies dancing
in the street at the announcement of the WTC attack. So..
the point is -- I believe in the right of existence for Israel --
and he has implied I am 'evil' You draw the fucking dots,
'Uncle Tom.'
> > Nor did I say those words, without saying that I do not
> > trust the Israelis as well.
>
> In other words, you did say them. Besides, you're the last one who
> should be whining that someone attributed words to you. You, after
> all, are the pathological liar who claimed that I 'prefer' two-year-
> old girls to be murdered.
>
You do... Given the CHOICE... it is clear that you would PREFER
that a victim be murdered by an INDIVIDUAL rather than the
STATE execute a murderer. That's rather simple. That's
always been your 'philosophy' (sic). Are you saying that you
WOULD trade an execution for a victim? If so, I really don't
know WHAT your stated 'philosophy' is. Except that you will
probably come out with some sanctimonious, pious gobbledygook,
which proclaims you are anti-murder, but pro-murderers murdering.
Because by answering 'yes' to the question of Frank, you
certainly stated you were not opposed to a murderer murdering,
if it meant he was not executed. That was the heart of the question.
But these were my words --
" Will I EVER be able to believe that the Palestinians are
REASONABLE in any dispute they may have with ANY other people
concerning what they view as rightfully theirs? NOT A CHANCE. I
may still believe that they have such rights, in some small part. But
I will NEVER AGAIN, believe that they are REASONABLE."
This said after viewing those women in the street.
I then went on to say --
"Nor do I trust the Israeli government in any belief that
THEY are reasonable. But THEY didn't dance in the streets. I'll
make no apologies toward ANY who would celebrate over the
murder of 5000 humans. As I've stated over and over.
The Palestinian/Israeli problem is a geopolitical problem. You
may well believe it is a racist 'war' (I wouldn't put it past you).
But that would be to accept that ALL Palestinians are racist,
as well as ALL Israelis. Personally, I refuse to accept that premise."
> > Just as with your racist views, you try to portray OTHERS as
> > what you are.
>
> The mirror, LDB ... look in the mirror ... and stop pointing at
> the 'silver bird' ... the 'Select Few' won't save you this time,
> LDB ... you should have followed their 'advice' (sic) ...
>
Oh.. get off of it.. you know that you are one of the biggest
hypocrites here in respect to the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. It's a defense mechanism with you. You have
demonstrated that you are possessed of weak moral fiber,
that simply bends at the slightest instinct of your personal
survival.
> > Think hard and long about this. Your entire post
> > literally reeked with anti-Semitic evil drippings.
>
> Once again, imposing your moral values on others, through emotional
> blackmail when it works, and abuse and threats when it won't.
>
> Now if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times ... get off
> your knees and stop snivelling.
>
Actually, the problem was that dirtdog called ME a racist for
the remarks above. Clearly there is no reason for him doing so,
other than he has his fears of his own racism. And with you --
there is no question that you're the biggest Jewish 'Uncle Tom'
that exists. You'd sell your own people out if assured that you
can 'fit in.'
PV
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S #1 PUPPET
A Planet Visitor
> >>claiming that 'I will never trust the Palestinians again.'
>
> > Not that the above reason to allege anti-Semitism is anything other
> > than the usual idiotic PV turd, allow me to remind you of what you did
> > say, in all its glorious and shameful detail (which is actually more
> > damning than my rather generous paraphrase):
> >
> > "Witness the new generation now
> > being spawned in Palestine. Dancing in the streets over the deaths
> > of 10,000 humans."
> >
> > "Will I EVER be able to believe that
> > the Palestinians are REASONABLE in any dispute they may have
> > with ANY other people concerning what they view as rightfully
> > theirs? NOT A CHANCE. I may still believe that they have such
> > rights, in some small part. But I will NEVER AGAIN, believe that
> > they are REASONABLE"
> >
> >
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl61149995d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=2b9o7.148686%24aZ.22227043%40typhoon.ta
mpabay.rr.com&rnum=18
> >
> > Arab children are 'spawned'?!?
> >
> > If I were you, I should hang my head in shame.
>
> _have_ any shame ? Judging by the bare-faced lies, abuse, threats,
> emotional blackmail, and sucking up to John and billytwat in here ...
> the answer is no.
>
> Perhaps LDB thinks that if he tells the same lie often enough, people
> will believe it. Maybe he thinks that if he clamps his hands over his ears
> whilst lying, it's like 'The Tinkerbell Effect', and it's 'not really a
> lie, because the others can't hear it'.
>
> { snip }
Hardly a drop compared to what the culture in Palestinian is now
teaching their children. Yes, it's most certainly 'spawning' hate
that will last for generations.
And From Palestinian school books ==
PV
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S #1 SOCK PUPPET
A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
>
> > >
> > > And yet still you seem unable to identify what specifically
> >
> > Define 'specifically,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
>
> As opposed to generally. It would be very easy to simply say: "I found
> the whole post courageous." What I was asking you to do was point
> to which element(s)of the post qualified it as courageous, and why.
>
'specifics.'
> > > distinguishes that post from others you would not describe as
> > > courageous. What I wrote there clearly set out why I believe you have
> > > not made the case
> >
> > define 'made the case,' regarding 'courage of conviction' for me.
>
> Making the case would include the above specific references to the key
> elements and then showing how these elements are absent from other
> posts that you don't call courageous.
>
I find the Declaration of Independence 'generally courageous' but that
doesn't mean I need to 'justify' that view to anyone. In fact, there is
a 'general' comparison I find to those two documents. In a micro-mega
type viewpoint. Although the DOC was certain to bring quick reaction,
with possible military reprisal, the post represented the same 'courage
of conviction.'
> >
> > If you wish to pick out a particular sentence that I saw as 'demonstrating'
> > the 'courage of his convictions,' it rests in his very last comment -- "Am
> > I the only one that has observed these un-balanced traits from some
> > of our European correspondents?"
> >
> > Whether you AGREE with that, is immaterial. The fact is the
> > preponderance of posters here are European and many WOULD
> > equate a U.S. policy that they view with distaste with the 'people'
> > of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact. In the face of this
> > preponderance of bias, I find ANY argument which provides a
> > counter-argument to that to represent the 'courage of conviction' of
> > the poster.
>
> That is much better; I just wonder why you didn't say it the first
> time I asked you to.
>
to you, or to anyone for that matter. Opinions are a very private
thing. They require NO FACTUAL basis. And certainly any
comment in that post, could simply be 'refuted' by another
opinion claiming the post wasn't 'courageous.' I believe you
will end up doing so.
> > Clearly, since this particular newsgroup's mandate was
> > originally to express opposition to the DP, I find just about every
> > argument presented in opposition to that view represents a particular
> > 'courage of conviction.' But certainly the post of Cerberus, was viewed
> > by me as even more strong in that respect.
>
> OK, that is clear now. But I still think you are over the top in using
> the word "courage" in any sense of the word, in respect of a mere
> newsgroup message. There may be a few exceptions, such as if someone
> in, say, Iraq or China risked criticising their government in a
> newsgroup. That would be courageous.
>
It doesn't MATTER 'what you think.' Because that's YOUR opinion.
There is no FACT which would stand out to make 2 + 2 = 4 in an
opinion of what might be seen or not seen as 'courageous.'
> >
> > > You put "IN MY VIEW" in capitals, to tell me that you were simply
> > > stating your own opinion which you are entitled to, and that it is not
> > > my business to tell you what views to hold or what words to use.
> >
> > Well, thank you kindly. Since I am entitled to those 'views,' I am
> > also entitled to describe them as I see them. You can 'interpret'
> > them as you wish. Claiming to see it differently. What you cannot
> > do, is tell me how I might view a post, or even the words I might use
> > to describe that post.
>
> I have never tried to do that. What I wanted to know was WHY you used
> that word. If the manner of my request suggested any more than that to
> you, perhaps it was because, until now, you have seemed so reluctant
> to answer.
>
Arggggg....
> > And certainly you ARE making it your 'business'
> > to tell me 'what words to use.' Since you said "I believe you have not
> > made the case for using the word "courage.' The truth is... I don't
> > NEED to make the case in your view.
>
> You can believe this or not, but after I wrote that "made the case"
> line, I looked at it and just knew you would seize upon it. I was
> tempted to replace those words with others that would not offer you
> the same opportunity, but decided against it. To be honest, I expected
> you to make more of it than you have done. I expected far more words
> in capitals and at the very least, "ROTFLMAO" to have appeared
> somewhere.
>
yada yada yada.
>
>
> > > I wouldn't dream of trying to do that.
> >
> > Define 'dream' for me. Is that somewhat similar to 'out of touch with
> > reality'?
>
> It was used in a figurative sense, meaning not only would I not do
> that whilst conscious, but not even when not.
>
But you certainly ARE trying.
> > > So let's do it your way. Please
> > > explain why, in your view, that post was more deserving of being
> > > described as courageous than other posts in this forum are. What I
> > > want to know is what special quality
> >
> > Define 'special quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
>
> Special as in peculiar to that particular post or at the very least
> not found in most others.
>
No... you're just running in circles. I don't need you to tell me what
'special quality' is defined as. I need you to tell me what YOU think
'special quality' of 'courage' is. Then I will tell you what I think it is,
and how it is defined, and how that definition fits what I recognized
in my opinion was the broad brush of that post.
> >
> > > that particular post possesses
> > > that cannot be found in most other posts, and how that particular
> > > quality reflects the courage of the poster.
> > >
> >
> > Define 'particular quality' of 'courage of conviction' for me.
>
> I was asking WHY the particular quality REFLECTED courage of
> conviction, not FOR a particular quality OF courage of conviction.
>
It seems again, as if you're going in circles... first you ask for
'special quality,' than 'particular quality.' Clearly the post met the
definition in my opinion of that 'courage of conviction.' That is the
particular quality, and the specific quality. Courage, as expressed
by the heart as the seat of feeling, thought, spirit, mind, disposition,
nature. All as defined under courage. Or to pick another part of
that definition -- What was in his mind or thoughts, what he was
thinking of or intending, intention, purpose, desire or inclination.
'To speak one's mind,' to 'tell all one's heart.'
Literally, a 'strong' belief in the thought expressed, represents
'courage of conviction.' It doesn't have to be in 'opposition' to
an enemy, or fearless in the face of opposition. It merely has
to represent a strong belief in the thought expressed.
> >
> > > So all I am doing, PV, is not telling you what words you can use, as
> > > you accused me of doing, but simply asking for your views. One would
> > > have thought you would welcome such interest.
> > >
> >
> > Oh, but you ARE telling me what words I can use.. I certainly do not
> > need my post minutely dissected for the EXACT phrase that I saw
> > demonstrates 'courage of conviction.' I saw it in the ORIGINAL article
> > as well. I saw it within the entire context of the post. If I had said
> > 'pompous' in respect to THAT post, as the 'pomposity' I now see in
> > YOUR post, there would have been no remark from you. You disagree
> > with my CONCLUSION, thus you have decided to try and pick
> > apart the definition of the word, which I've explained in defining
> > the way I viewed the post.
>
> You have now, but again one wonders why you didn't before. Perhaps it
> was because you originally used the word "courage" without really
> thinking about it, but only now, having spent some time re-reading the
> post purely for the purpose of looking for something that might
> remotely fit that description, have you been able to produce that "Am
> I the only one ...." sentence as a convenient example.
>
yada yada yada. All I've really done is indulge your comments... humor
you, so to speak... because I fully recognize why you even commented
on such a word, used in so many different senses.
> > Just as I view your post as pompous.
> > Must I also define EXACTLY where I saw THAT in your post?
>
> If you wish, and by all means include the above paragraph I have just
> written if you think it qualifies.
>
It most certainly does.. as does your 'made the case,' your 'dream'
sequence, and your obsession (you seem to have a problem in this
area) with 'special' and 'particular.'
>
> > But join the crowd... there must be at least a dozen of you here.
> > And it's ALL from the European side, which rather demonstrates
> > what I originally meant. And what the original poster meant. And
> > what the original article meant. Your comments here, DO rather
> > demonstrate exactly the meaning of both the article and the comment
> > of the original thread. In that respect, you are a microcosm of
> > the meaning to the article and the post. Finding nothing within that
> > post which represents my words. You comment gives meaning to
> > the article. So, let me ask you -- why do you NOT see a 'courage of
> > conviction' in the post of Cerberus? What do YOU see in it?
>
>
> The reason I don't see any reason to single out Cerberus for any
> praise regarding his courage of conviction is because there is nothing
> out of the ordinary in his post. He holds a view about what he sees as
> bigotry against Americans and so posted an article that broadly
> reflected that view, followed by comments of his own. If everyone who
> did no more than that was immediately fawned over and praised for
> their "courage", that would soon become the most overused and
> inappropriately used word on usenet.
>
You misunderstand 'courage' completely. You think someone has
to be faced with withering crossfire if what they say can be called
'courageous.' But that's silly. Speaking from the heart... IS
courageous. I felt Cerberus was doing so. That's certainly the
easiest way to express what I felt.
> My view of the article is that it was very good and I agreed with most
> of it, but, as with Cerberus, I wouldn't go over the top by remarking
> on the writer's "courage".
>
Good for you... of course... all you've done is express an 'opinion.'
Which is all that I did. And if you wish my 'opinion' of YOUR 'opinion,'
I believe you are hoping to extract yourself from here with as much
grace as possible. Because the article and the comment stands
on its own merits. What you are saying is, in the absence of my
comment, you would have ignored his post completely, or at best
given it the most cursory of examinations.
> >
> > I predict YOUR answer will SUPPORT the conclusion reached in the
> > article.
>
> And I predict that in spite of my answer doing no such thing, you will
> not have the humility to admit your prediction was wrong.
>
Oh, I believe your answer full substantiated my prediction. You've
rather grudgingly offered faint praise, simply to disprove my comment.
But it was rather transparent... IN MY OPINION.
> Happy vampire hunting.
Happy harpooning... :-)
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:am7m09$9gb$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
> >> Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
> >>
> >No.. who dares criticize without viewing the problem from both sides
> >of the issue, is either Anti-Semitic or stupid. Depending on their
> >motivations. To take the Jewish side in total, is one of the more
> >stupid things I believe the U.S. could do. Nor do I believe She does
> >so.
>
> That's American humor, I guess?
>
since I mentioned, only a moment ago... German humor... But
I believe that is an oxymoron.
<clip meaningless remarks>
PV
>
> J.
>
>
>
Just passing by
> news:slrnaoe2ja.17hs....@lievre.voute.net...
> > Le Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:14:45 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> > On the other hand, the Americans posting are you, Richard, billytwat,
> > Vlad, Jigsaw, pd (I _think_ he's American), Sharp, Keith, Donna and
> > Earl (yes, they're naturalised French, but then you're naturalised
> > American, and so we don't distinguish between the two), and General
> > 'Zob'. Again, I probably missed one or two whose posts I don't
> > read. So that's six Europeans, and _at least_ ten Americans.
> >
> Vlad is not American. He's Dutch. Nor is Keith (what the hell??).
> And trying to call Earl and Donna American, is like trying to call bin Laden
> the Pope. The Americans here who express an American viewpoint are
>
> Jigsaw - Pro-DP
> Richard - Pro-DP
> William Robert - Pro-DP (???) I think he just doesn't like you, and some
> other Europeans and Australians here.
> PV - Pro-DP
> PD - New here - no telling how long - Anti-DP
> Sharp - Hardly relevant - since he doesn't engage in argument as a rule.
> GeneralZod - has two posts here - neither related to the DP
Aren't you both forgetting Rev. Don Kool? He is American and supports the DP.
> Just Passing By - Anti
That is only presumption on your part.
Jürgen
Just passing by schrieb in Nachricht
<21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com>...
Thank you. It is most recreative to get to know that this dialogs are
occasionally read by others than the direct contrahents. Particularly since
a discussion with PV can have only the purpose to provide arguments of
general meaning.
Sincerely
Jürgen
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht
I note that no answer, absolutely no answer is in sight which would clear
the right of Israel to exist on pre-'48-Palestinian ground, other than the
reason which I gave by myself, that's: "(1) Since being the home of a
community for more than half a century Israel has become indispensible. It
would make no sense to fight against a humanitary catastrophy via
substituting it by a new one." Say, Meister, you have no reason, have you?
You try to nullify my reason, for plainly to inflame, to offend and to bash,
while you can't provide any rational ground greater than the mine for
Israel's right to exist on occupied land.
J.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
pasdespa...@zeouane.org wrote:
> Le Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:43:46 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > The poor fellow is still in denial about his failing to obtain a
> > tertiary education.
> >
> > In order to make up for his manifest inadequacies, he prefers to spout
> > bollocks about having met Bill Clinton (boopy-twang!) and babble on
> > about what an "impressive" man he was.
> >
> > Loserama, I'm afraid. Loserama.
>
> LOL ... reading these words, I had to scroll back up to the attribution
> lines, to make sure that you weren't talking about LDB ... :-O
Cerberus is merely a PV wannabe. You and I may have quite serious
disagreements about PV's worth/worthiness but stop and spare a thought
for the poor guy. Somewhere out there, there's someone who wants to
stick his tongue up PV's arse. If I was the latter, I'd be feeling
pretty creeped-out by that.
You _should_ sympathise. After all, he-who-will-not-be-named wants to
stick his luncheonmeat truncheon up your arse and that must be a very
disturbing prospect, indeed.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:38:30 +0000
>
>Le 18 Sep 2002 06:28:32 -0700, Just passing by <unimpre...@yahoo.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Aren't you both forgetting Rev. Don Kool?
>
>We try, we try ...
>
>> He is American and supports the DP.
>
>Yes, but he is still posting here as billytwat, so counting that
>persona, plus the 'original' one of oldno7, would mean counting
>him twice.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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om!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:38:30 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:01:06 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:43:46 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
><jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> The poor fellow is still in denial about his failing to obtain a
>> tertiary education.
>>
>> In order to make up for his manifest inadequacies, he prefers to spout
>> bollocks about having met Bill Clinton (boopy-twang!) and babble on
>> about what an "impressive" man he was.
>>
>> Loserama, I'm afraid. Loserama.
>
>LOL ... reading these words, I had to scroll back up to the attribution
>lines, to make sure that you weren't talking about LDB ... :-O
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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5.178!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos
.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:01:06 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:47:45 +0000
>
>Note to AADP denizens ... if you don't like the sight of redneck Floridian
>blood, splattering over your screen ... don't read this post ... 'cos
>LDB is about to get yet another hiding ...
>
>Le Wed, 18 Sep 2002 05:37:29 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Peter Morris... St. George... Just Passing By... Keith Luscombe...
>> Cerberus Plus Mr Diablo... John Spragge... both non-Americans and both
>> expressing their views in a distinct European flavor.
>
>ROTFLMAO !! Now it's 'European flavour' ??? <hysterical laughter>
>
>No doubt about it, LDB, when you're beaten, you do it in style !!
>
>Peter Morris hasn't posted for a month, so if you want to include him,
>then you also have to include some American posters who haven't been
>here for a month. 'JPB', I don't know what nationality he is ... just
>checked google and he posts from a UK Tiscali address so OK, let's
>count him. Keith ..? His last post bears a Swiss IP address, so
>he's not European either. Cerberus, I was under the impression that
>he was Australian, as is Mr Diablo. John Spragge hasn't posted here
>since February of this year. Even if he were still posting, he lives in
>Michigan, and since you say that Earl and Donna 'aren't American'
>because they don't live in the United States, so John Spragge would
>have to be considered 'American' according to your own criteria.
>
>>> On the other hand, the Americans posting are you, Richard, billytwat,
>>> Vlad, Jigsaw, pd (I _think_ he's American), Sharp, Keith, Donna and
>>> Earl (yes, they're naturalised French, but then you're naturalised
>>> American, and so we don't distinguish between the two), and General
>>> 'Zob'. Again, I probably missed one or two whose posts I don't
>>> read. So that's six Europeans, and _at least_ ten Americans.
>
>> Vlad is not American. He's Dutch.
>
>I seem to recall a year or two ago, Vlad informing us that he is an
>American living in the Netherlands. He'll confirm this for us, I'm
>sure.
>
>> Nor is Keith (what the hell??).
>
>No idea of his nationality. In any case, he's not posting from Europe,
>so I was correct about that.
>
><fx: takes a pause to listen to LDB gnashing his teeth ... tee hee, this
> is soooooooo much fun ...>
>
>> And trying to call Earl and Donna American, is like trying to call bin
>Laden
>> the Pope. The Americans here who express an American viewpoint are
>
>They possess American passports, and so are American. I'm sure that
>everyone will agree that _your_ opinion as to their nationality, matters
>not one iota. A sentiment with which you will be very familiar.
>
>> Jigsaw - Pro-DP
>> Richard - Pro-DP
>> William Robert - Pro-DP (???) I think he just doesn't like you, and some
>> other Europeans and Australians here.
>> PV - Pro-DP
>> PD - New here - no telling how long - Anti-DP
>> Sharp - Hardly relevant - since he doesn't engage in argument as a rule.
>> GeneralZod - has two posts here - neither related to the DP
>
>LOL ... did you get the straw from bottom of the pile, or would you
>like another try ?
>
>Let's see ... General Zod's posts don't count, as they're not 'related
>to the DP', whereas billytwat's do, even though they only serve to
>obsess over how he'd like to take me up the 'tailpipe' ? Is that a
>double standard I see before me ..? LOL ...
>
>Also, as far as I am aware, sharp is a regular poster here, as he
>regularly appears in my killfile.log. Yet he doesn't 'argue', so
>he can't be counted ? LOOOOL !!!!! Once more, LDB making the
>rules up as he goes along, and bending them when it suits him ...
>
>> So --- Given that I'm not sure Cerberus is European (I believe so),
>> nor am I that sure he is pro-DP (I think he is not - he just doesn't
>> like you and dirt and Mr. D), what we ACTUALLY have is hard-core
>> contributors of European flavor 15
>
>ROT-F-FLMAO !!!! I'm going to do myself a mischief, I'm laughing so
>much !!!! Yesterday, European posters 'outnumbered' American posters,
>and now that I have shown this not to be the case, you clutch at
>straws, redefine 'European', and even introduce the airy-fairy notion
>of 'European flavour' !! What is that, sweet rather than savoury ?
>If you prick us, do we not bleed ? If you suck our dicks, do we not
>taste of pecan nuts and strawberry jam ?? ROTFLMAO !!! 'European
>flavour' ??!! Oh, stop it, LDB ... you're trying to kill me with
>laughter, having been unable to defeat me with your 'arguments' !!
>
>> Desipoo - Anti
>> dirt - Anti
>> Jürgen -Anti
>> John 'lovable' Rennie - Anti
>> Hugh - Anti
>> Earl - Anti
>> Donna - Anti
>> Peter Morris - Anti
>> St. George - Anti
>> Just Passing By - Anti
>> Keith Luscombe - Anti
>> Mr Diablo - Anti
>> John Spragge - Anti
>> incubus - Pro
>> Vlad - Pro
>
>Can I hear 'desperate' coming from LDB's post this fine morning ? I
>look out of my window, my cat miaows and moves out onto the balcony,
>but I can only hear my own laughter, as I picture LDB sitting redefining
>what constitutes 'European', to make Americans and Canadians into
>'Europeans' !!
>
><fx: waits for LDB to jump up and beg, concerning 'Switzerland' not
> in Europe ... jump, LDB !! This is sooo easy ... >
>
>{ snip moronic straw-clutching about 'American flavor [sic]' ... }
>
>> (it would seem those two are actually anti-Desmond more than anything
>> else - which should tell you something).
>
>Yes, they're obsessed. Of course, if you had any integrity (go and
>look it up in your dictionary), you'd have noticed that for most
>of his time here, billytwat only _ever_ posted attention-seeking
>posts concerning me. Once I and a few others pointed this out to him,
>he started to post to amateur radio newsgroups, and such. Of course,
>as 'billytwat' is none other than Drewl McDonald and only you and
>Rush Wickes are still naïve/stupid/hopeful (delete as appropriate) to
>believe otherwise, no one should be surprised that he is 'anti-Des'.
>After all, I'd be 'anti' anyone who got me sacked and gaoled.
>
>> And the unknown --
>> Cerberus - I believe he is European and I don't know whether he is
>> pro or anti -- he doesn't like you, dirt and Mr D. either.
>
>I don't know, but his ISP (or at least, his domain) is riverstyx,
>and is located in Vancouver.
>
>{ snip }
>
>> No... simply counting is all. I loved the way you 'counted' Vlad,
>> Keith, Donna and Earl as Americans. None of them live in
>> America.
>
>There it is again ... LDB boasted that he 'has a gun', and yet he
>can't seem to stop using it on his own foot. Earl is 'European',
>because he lives in Europe, and yet John Spragge' is 'European',
>even although he lives in the United States ? LOL !!! You missed
>out Dave Proctor ... he's Australian (with joint nationality, IIRC),
>yet to you, he'll be 'European' ... <fx: coughs blood, laughing so
>much ...>
>
>> spank... spank... spank.
>
>Yes, a very successful auto-spank on your part. Almost as good as
>your 'I invented "dolly"' posts ... and just as satisfying to
>slap down ... spank ... spank .. spank ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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alth.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:47:45 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 165
>Message-ID: <slrnaogiu0.190s....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Just Passing By - Anti
>
> That is only presumption on your part.
>
point is my original comment recognized YOU as the 'standard' with which
I was comparing others. The dialog developed here resulted from a post to
you, where I said -- "The fact is the preponderance of posters here are
European and many WOULD equate a U.S. policy that they view with
distaste with the 'people' of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact."
TO you. Meanwhile, FDP would hope to eliminate all but 3 others from
such a comparison, in his typical irrational commentaries.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Note to AADP denizens ... if you don't like the sight of redneck Floridian
> blood, splattering over your screen ... don't read this post ... 'cos
> LDB is about to get yet another hiding ...
>
construction of 'mindless drivel' -- "I will now pathetically attempt to use
SG Seminal observation 6) to 'claim victory' snatching defeat from the
jaws of defeat."
> Le Wed, 18 Sep 2002 05:37:29 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Peter Morris... St. George... Just Passing By... Keith Luscombe...
> > Cerberus Plus Mr Diablo... John Spragge... both non-Americans and both
> > expressing their views in a distinct European flavor.
>
> ROTFLMAO !! Now it's 'European flavour' ??? <hysterical laughter>
>
The original comment from me was in reference to the methods
employed by JPB in his posting style -- they represent that 'flavor'
I speak of. There is nothing within that comment which implies
that a poster must have been 'born and raised' in Europe. They
need only demonstrate what I view as a comparison to JPB in
HIS European style of comments. My words were -- "The fact is the
preponderance of posters here are European and many WOULD
equate a U.S. policy that they view with distaste with the 'people'
of the U.S. The 'flavor' spoken of is those who view with distaste
the 'people' of the U.S. because of a connection to their distaste for
the policies of the U.S. Thus, my argument in respect to the 'European
Side' stands as written. I listed the names as where they LIVE, and
then hoped to identify the direction their arguments take in
respect to the DP. Certainly Peter Morris, St. George, and Keith
Luscombe are European. Certainly Earl and Donna are European.
Certainly both Mr. Diablo and John Spragge meet the conditions of
my original comparison, even though I now admit (and apologize) that
Spragge posts from Michigan, although I still believe he is Canadian.
> No doubt about it, LDB, when you're beaten, you do it in style !!
>
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
SG seminal axiom 6) 'mindless drivel'
> Peter Morris hasn't posted for a month, so if you want to include him,
> then you also have to include some American posters who haven't been
> here for a month.
Who would those be? I mean American (I love that admission
by you) posters who have not posted for a month? Peter Morris
last posted here 11 Aug, and has been a vitriolic European
contributor in the past. There is no doubt he meets the meaning
of my words. St. George as well. And Mr. Diablo (although not
a European) meets what I imply in my comment. As do Earl
and Donna.
> 'JPB', I don't know what nationality he is ... just
> checked google and he posts from a UK Tiscali address so OK, let's
> count him. Keith ..? His last post bears a Swiss IP address, so
> he's not European either.
But you put Keith down as American... Enron accounting??
In any case, you cannot exclude JPB, since my entire comment
was a COMPARISON to HIM.
> Cerberus, I was under the impression that
> he was Australian, as is Mr Diablo. John Spragge hasn't posted here
> since February of this year. Even if he were still posting, he lives in
> Michigan, and since you say that Earl and Donna 'aren't American'
> because they don't live in the United States, so John Spragge would
> have to be considered 'American' according to your own criteria.
>
Apparently you are correct as to him living in Michigan. But I do believe
he has claimed to BE Canadian. Going to a page he created --
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~spragge/
one can find that he mentions "For a number of years, I had the privilege
of working with the prison literacy program of Frontier College as a tutor.
During that time, I tutored inmates in many of the prisons surrounding
Kingston Ontario, from minimum to maximum security institutions."
In any case.... his posting philosophy is exactly what I mean in respect
to connecting the 'people' to the 'policy.' But if he hasn't posted since
last Feburary then he certainly can't be considered American as well,
under your 'rules.' Both Earl and Donna are EXACTLY who I refer to.
You may call them 'Americans,' but they are NOT, anymore than you are.
They are Europeans who would directly connect the 'policy' of the U.S.
to the 'people' of the U.S, in a most unflattering analogy.
> >> On the other hand, the Americans posting are you, Richard, billytwat,
> >> Vlad, Jigsaw, pd (I _think_ he's American), Sharp, Keith, Donna and
> >> Earl (yes, they're naturalised French, but then you're naturalised
> >> American, and so we don't distinguish between the two), and General
> >> 'Zob'. Again, I probably missed one or two whose posts I don't
> >> read. So that's six Europeans, and _at least_ ten Americans.
>
> > Vlad is not American. He's Dutch.
>
> I seem to recall a year or two ago, Vlad informing us that he is an
> American living in the Netherlands. He'll confirm this for us, I'm
> sure.
>
> > Nor is Keith (what the hell??).
>
> No idea of his nationality. In any case, he's not posting from Europe,
> so I was correct about that.
>
No... you were not... You put him as American. When are you
going to have the guts to admit you're deceptive (think 'execreta' (sic))?
Simply because you're so ignorant of geography, does not mean everyone
is. See further on...
> <fx: takes a pause to listen to LDB gnashing his teeth ... tee hee, this
> is soooooooo much fun ...>
>
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
'mindless drivel'
> > And trying to call Earl and Donna American, is like trying to call bin Laden
> > the Pope. The Americans here who express an American viewpoint are
>
> They possess American passports, and so are American. I'm sure that
> everyone will agree that _your_ opinion as to their nationality, matters
> not one iota. A sentiment with which you will be very familiar.
>
ho ho ho.. they possess French passports as well. And they LIVE
in Europe. <fx: feels earthquake-like rumble... attributes it to FDP banging
head on desk in rage and frustration>
> > Jigsaw - Pro-DP
> > Richard - Pro-DP
> > William Robert - Pro-DP (???) I think he just doesn't like you, and some
> > other Europeans and Australians here.
> > PV - Pro-DP
> > PD - New here - no telling how long - Anti-DP
> > Sharp - Hardly relevant - since he doesn't engage in argument as a rule.
> > GeneralZod - has two posts here - neither related to the DP
>
> LOL ... did you get the straw from bottom of the pile, or would you
> like another try ?
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
'mindless drivel'
> Let's see ... General Zod's posts don't count, as they're not 'related
> to the DP', whereas billytwat's do, even though they only serve to
> obsess over how he'd like to take me up the 'tailpipe' ? Is that a
> double standard I see before me ..? LOL ...
>
Where did I say his posts 'don't count'? Because I add a caveat, does
not mean I didn't 'count him.' The only one I now view in respect to
your latest post, as 'not counting' is John Spragge (who counts on
neither side). Quite clearly, in the end, I counted him exactly as one
of the 8 --
Richard
Jigsaw
PV
Sharp
PD
YMT
GeneralZod
William Robert
I put him down as Pro-DP, even though there are certain reservations
in his posting history. Those I call antis are most certainly, examples
of the European anti that I refer to.
> Also, as far as I am aware, sharp is a regular poster here, as he
> regularly appears in my killfile.log. Yet he doesn't 'argue', so
> he can't be counted ? LOOOOL !!!!! Once more, LDB making the
> rules up as he goes along, and bending them when it suits him ...
>
I counted him as a pro, just the same. His is, of course, not one
of the posters I refer to as 'policy' connected to 'people' of America
in a negative sense. You take issue with my 'comments' yet fail to
recognize that I STILL counted them, against any belief in respect
to the preponderance of posters here. While you try to avoid the
FACTS of Peter Morris, St. George, Keith, and the two French
posters - Earl and Donna.
> > So --- Given that I'm not sure Cerberus is European (I believe so),
> > nor am I that sure he is pro-DP (I think he is not - he just doesn't
> > like you and dirt and Mr. D), what we ACTUALLY have is hard-core
> > contributors of European flavor 15
>
> ROT-F-FLMAO !!!! I'm going to do myself a mischief, I'm laughing so
> much !!!! Yesterday, European posters 'outnumbered' American posters,
> and now that I have shown this not to be the case, you clutch at
> straws, redefine 'European', and even introduce the airy-fairy notion
> of 'European flavour' !! What is that, sweet rather than savoury ?
> If you prick us, do we not bleed ? If you suck our dicks, do we not
> taste of pecan nuts and strawberry jam ?? ROTFLMAO !!! 'European
> flavour' ??!! Oh, stop it, LDB ... you're trying to kill me with
> laughter, having been unable to defeat me with your 'arguments' !!
>
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
'mindless drivel'
> > Desipoo - Anti
> > dirt - Anti
> > Jürgen -Anti
> > John 'lovable' Rennie - Anti
> > Hugh - Anti
> > Earl - Anti
> > Donna - Anti
> > Peter Morris - Anti
> > St. George - Anti
> > Just Passing By - Anti
> > Keith Luscombe - Anti
> > Mr Diablo - Anti
> > John Spragge - Anti
> > incubus - Pro
> > Vlad - Pro
>
> Can I hear 'desperate' coming from LDB's post this fine morning ? I
> look out of my window, my cat miaows and moves out onto the balcony,
> but I can only hear my own laughter, as I picture LDB sitting redefining
> what constitutes 'European', to make Americans and Canadians into
> 'Europeans' !!
>
I don't 'redefine' Europe to exclude Switzerland, sport. The only one
there, that can be found as flawed is John Spragge. And you have
admitted he 'doesn't count at all,' since he's not posted since Feb.
I 'love' the way you count. Unless they live in YOUR definition of
Europe... they don't count. While everyone else, regardless of
where they live is American. ROTFLMAO. And a thorough
spank...spank...spank along with it.
> <fx: waits for LDB to jump up and beg, concerning 'Switzerland' not
> in Europe ... jump, LDB !! This is sooo easy ... >
>
Piffle..Keith is English by birth, I am almost certain. He is absolutely
not American. But he is most certainly European... All of your
pitiful comments related to the redefining of continental borders
aside. In fact, these are the nations of Europe -- See
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
http://www.tte.ch/
http://www.greatestcities.com/Europe/Switzerland.htm
http://www.parlament.ch/E/dossiers/europa/europa.htm?servlet=get_content
http://www.travel-guide.com/data/che/che.asp
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Regions/Europe/Countries/
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Regions/Europe/Countries/
http://europa.eu.int/abc/governments/index_en.html
And especially for you, if your travels take you to Switzerland
http://www.aa-europe.net/countries/switzerland.htm
> { snip moronic straw-clutching about 'American flavor [sic]' ... }
>
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
'mindless drivel'
> > (it would seem those two are actually anti-Desmond more than anything
> > else - which should tell you something).
>
> Yes, they're obsessed.
<chuckle on>
Obsessed with recognizing 'evil'? Of course... I am as well.
Why do you think they are here? They are here mostly because
of you.... you 'evil' little monster, you.
<chuckle off>
> Of course, if you had any integrity (go and
> look it up in your dictionary), you'd have noticed that for most
> of his time here, billytwat only _ever_ posted attention-seeking
> posts concerning me. Once I and a few others pointed this out to him,
> he started to post to amateur radio newsgroups, and such. Of course,
> as 'billytwat' is none other than Drewl McDonald and only you and
> Rush Wickes are still naïve/stupid/hopeful (delete as appropriate) to
> believe otherwise, no one should be surprised that he is 'anti-Des'.
> After all, I'd be 'anti' anyone who got me sacked and gaoled.
>
Yes.. that's undoubtedly why you hate them... perhaps they also
had a hand in breaking up your first marriage. Probably transferring
your aggression relating to them on the net, into your personal life...
drinking heavily... and... well, you know... she DID drop a bike on
your toe. But it's always the children that suffer (how many did you
say you have??).
> > And the unknown --
> > Cerberus - I believe he is European and I don't know whether he is
> > pro or anti -- he doesn't like you, dirt and Mr D. either.
>
> I don't know, but his ISP (or at least, his domain) is riverstyx,
> and is located in Vancouver.
>
Nonetheless, he is not American... nor does he represent the
meaning of my comment. Thus he is simply not part of the
comparison -- the same as John Spragge.
> { snip }
>
> > No... simply counting is all. I loved the way you 'counted' Vlad,
> > Keith, Donna and Earl as Americans. None of them live in
> > America.
>
> There it is again ... LDB boasted that he 'has a gun', and yet he
> can't seem to stop using it on his own foot. Earl is 'European',
> because he lives in Europe, and yet John Spragge' is 'European',
> even although he lives in the United States ? LOL !!! You missed
> out Dave Proctor ... he's Australian (with joint nationality, IIRC),
> yet to you, he'll be 'European' ... <fx: coughs blood, laughing so
> much ...>
>
I purposely avoided Dave Proctor. No oversight. I did so because
he does not represent either the mentality of those I speak of, and
is neither European or American. He is certainly anti. I agree that
John Spragge probably should not be counted in either respect.
Nor Cerberus... Nevertheless...
Earl IS European. In the sense I meant in posting. And he lives in Europe.
Donna IS the same.
Peter Morris IS the same.
St. George IS the same.
Keith IS the same
Mr D. is the same (although not European nor American) It is
absolutely certain that I considered him as part of the comment I
made, while understanding he is from Australia.
> > Mr Diablo - Anti
> > John Spragge - Anti
> > incubus - Pro
> > Vlad - Pro
> > spank... spank... spank.
>
> Yes, a very successful auto-spank on your part. Almost as good as
> your 'I invented "dolly"' posts ... and just as satisfying to
> slap down ... spank ... spank .. spank ...
>
gentle reader -- pardon FDP as he interrupts with a bit more of his
'mindless drivel'
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |PV'S #1 PUPPET
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:amalt2$fbi$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
rather took away that right for a considerable number of years
prior to that date. I can presume you would find it reasonable
to give Bavaria to those displaced at the end of WW II, for
the creation of a new State of Israel. My 'problem' with you
in this argument began when you claimed that Israel was the
53rd State of the U.S. You've changed your tune considerably
since then... now expecting us to believe that all the crap you're
now putting out was the same that you've always put out. But
that simply isn't true. You came into this with a very clear bias
AGAINST the Jew. Now you piously speak of a humanitarian
catastrophe in respect to the Jew. But that didn't seem to bother
you when the dialog began. It was only seen by you as a
Palestinian humanitarian catastrophe.
PV
> J.
Just passing by
> >
> Actually, whether you are or are not 'anti' is simply something added. The
> point is my original comment recognized YOU as the 'standard' with which
> I was comparing others. The dialog developed here resulted from a post to
> you, where I said -- "The fact is the preponderance of posters here are
> European and many WOULD equate a U.S. policy that they view with
> distaste with the 'people' of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact."
Then you are wrong to get that feeling. As a general rule I avoid
challenging personal attacks on me and I ignore all personal criticism
of me even when it is totally wrong, because it enables the person
making the attacks to shift attention from the original subject being
debated - and it is all "water off a duck's back" to me in any case.
However, as I have no direct interest in this European/American ratios
discussion, I will make an exception by pointing out that I am not
anti-American at all, at least not in relation to ordinary American
people. You were wrong in your conclusion about why I said I agreed
with much of the article that Cerberus posted; there was no hidden
motive there. I have a very high regard for a great many Americans ( I
regard Eddie Van Halen as a 'god' and he is certainly an American) but
I have nothing but utter contempt for your system of "justice" which I
regard as the worst in the developed world.
John Rennie
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
Hmm. . .may I ask whether you are in favour of the jury system?
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>> >> That's American humor, I guess?
I stand for ANY word I wrote. There is not a single one to revoke.
... now expecting us to believe that all the crap you're
>now putting out was the same that you've always put out.
"Us"? Who is "us"? Pluralis Majestatis?
But
>that simply isn't true.
With all due respect: What arrogance, Sir. As if you would know what were
true or wrong concerning my statements. Do you really believe you have the
right, the background and the justification to call me a liar here, by
declaring any of my statements for dishonest, whenever they would not match
your prejudicial picture about me!? A free advice: Stick to your awfully
weak argumentations, and invest some thought in your posts, rather than to
form equally as smartassed as unfounded conclusions about honesty and
morality of other posters.
You came into this with a very clear bias
>AGAINST the Jew.
ROTFLMAO. Because I addressed critics at the US, I suppose?
Now you piously speak of a humanitarian
>catastrophe in respect to the Jew. But that didn't seem to bother
>you when the dialog began. It was only seen by you as a
>Palestinian humanitarian catastrophe.
Well, I fed your whole reply in my translator, and that's what returned:
'I have no idea what to reply. No fundament in sight for Israel's right to
exist on Palestinian ground beyond Jürgen's reasoning.'
So again: You try to nullify my reason, for plainly to inflame, to offend
and to bash, while you can't provide any rational ground greater than the
mine for Israel's right to exist on occupied land.
J.
A Planet Visitor
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com...
>
> > >
> > Actually, whether you are or are not 'anti' is simply something added. The
> > point is my original comment recognized YOU as the 'standard' with which
> > I was comparing others. The dialog developed here resulted from a post to
> > you, where I said -- "The fact is the preponderance of posters here are
> > European and many WOULD equate a U.S. policy that they view with
> > distaste with the 'people' of the U.S. I get that feeling from you, in fact."
>
>
> Then you are wrong to get that feeling.
Hello... another one 'demanding' how I may find a 'feeling' of my own?
> As a general rule I avoid
> challenging personal attacks on me and I ignore all personal criticism
> of me even when it is totally wrong, because it enables the person
> making the attacks to shift attention from the original subject being
> debated - and it is all "water off a duck's back" to me in any case.
> However, as I have no direct interest in this European/American ratios
> discussion, I will make an exception by pointing out that I am not
> anti-American at all, at least not in relation to ordinary American
> people. You were wrong in your conclusion about why I said I agreed
> with much of the article that Cerberus posted; there was no hidden
> motive there. I have a very high regard for a great many Americans ( I
> regard Eddie Van Halen as a 'god' and he is certainly an American) but
> I have nothing but utter contempt for your system of "justice" which I
> regard as the worst in the developed world.
>
Eddie Van Halen as a 'God' implies you have a very high regard for
many Americans?? Have you taken leave of your senses?
'Deny' all you wish. I see what I see. And I certainly can remark on
what I see. Just as you have done here. And if you claim that
I am 'wrong to get that feeling,' then let me say that you are 'wrong
to get that feeling,' in respect to your last sentence.
PV
William Robert
>Jesus, I've lost my apetite ... :-(
Prozac, Zoloft, so many wonderful drugs,
yet none seen to work for Desi.
Hope this helps!
William Robert
-----------
God bless America!
-----------
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>news:slrnaogiu0.190s....@lievre.voute.net...
>> Note to AADP denizens ... if you don't like the sight of redneck
Floridian
>> blood, splattering over your screen ... don't read this post ... 'cos
>> LDB is about to get yet another hiding ...
>>
>Gentle reader --
...no...no gentle reader. 16 kB and this intro is too much.
J.
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:amchuo$a1t$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
resemble an organ grinder, playing a harmonica strapped to your neck,
foot-peddling a drum, accompanied by a dancing pet monkey.
Supplying a mixture of simultaneous tunes... quite discordant
and mixed as the mood suits you. You 'stand for' your words... but
they conflict with themselves.
>
> ... now expecting us to believe that all the crap you're
> >now putting out was the same that you've always put out.
>
> "Us"? Who is "us"? Pluralis Majestatis?
>
is the 53rd U.S. State, and hold that Germany has a historical
responsibility for this problem, and has made not the slightest
effort to solve it, other than 'wag a finger' at the U.S. for not doing
so. Previously demonstrated by a list I provided that you most
conveniently clipped.
> > But
> >that simply isn't true.
>
> With all due respect: What arrogance, Sir. As if you would know what were
> true or wrong concerning my statements. Do you really believe you have the
> right, the background and the justification to call me a liar here, by
> declaring any of my statements for dishonest, whenever they would not match
> your prejudicial picture about me!? A free advice: Stick to your awfully
> weak argumentations, and invest some thought in your posts, rather than to
> form equally as smartassed as unfounded conclusions about honesty and
> morality of other posters.
>
Of course I have the right... are you presuming to now determine what
'rights' posters have here?... You've personally attacked my nation, my
society, and me as well, with your silly comment regarding the 53rd
U.S. State being Israel. I certainly don't have to accept that analysis.
Nor will I. At that particular moment it became very clear to me, that
you would gladly accept the destruction of Israel, and relocation of all
Jews to Montana or another State in the U.S. As long as it wasn't
Germany. At that moment it no longer became an Israeli/Palestinian
argument between us... it became a U.S./Germany argument. With
me needing to defend the U.S. in its actions in that conflict, and you
needing to defend the historical perspective of Germany and the
actions taken by Germany in that conflict. Clearly, you've come up
short in all respects. I've provided a large list of U.S. actions taken
to effect a peace prospect, beginning decades ago. I don't need to
repeat those efforts. I've seen NOTHING from you in respect to what
Germany has done, except your belief that 'doing nothing' is the thing
to do. Specifics, Jürgen... not rhetoric. There is quite enough
rhetoric already, accompanied by nothing else, in respect to this
conflict.
> You came into this with a very clear bias
> >AGAINST the Jew.
>
> ROTFLMAO. Because I addressed critics at the US, I suppose?
>
Of course. By your own admission. When you claim that Israel
is the 53rd U.S. State, and you now ADMIT that addresses criticism
toward the U.S., that is a very clear bias against the Jews. Look,
you now ADMIT you criticize the U.S That admits you hold a
negative bias against the U.S., in this conflict. You have CONNECTED
the Jew to the U.S. Very conclusively, and in the most forceful
manner possible... assuming that Israel IS the U.S. Thus, you have
expressed a bias against the Jew by extension of your admitted
negative bias against the U.S. You certainly express a positive bias
for the Palestinians in such an admission. I'd like to keep things
in perspective.... but you wish to 'blame' the U.S. While Europe,
and Germany, stand helpless. Except for that 'finger.'
> >Now you piously speak of a humanitarian
> >catastrophe in respect to the Jew. But that didn't seem to bother
> >you when the dialog began. It was only seen by you as a
> >Palestinian humanitarian catastrophe.
>
> Well, I fed your whole reply in my translator, and that's what returned:
>
> 'I have no idea what to reply. No fundament in sight for Israel's right to
> exist on Palestinian ground beyond Jürgen's reasoning.'
>
yeah... yeah.. yeah. Silly remark having nothing to offer but such
silliness. You most certainly DID enter this dialog with the presumption
that it was ONLY the Palestinians who were enduring a humanitarian
catastrophe. A catastrophe, that you claimed was brought on by a
concerted 'plot' of America and Israel, to create such a catastrophe.
> So again: You try to nullify my reason, for plainly to inflame, to offend
> and to bash, while you can't provide any rational ground greater than the
> mine for Israel's right to exist on occupied land.
>
Again... your 'translator' fails you. But what do we have again? A lull in
killing for 6 weeks... broken by a Palestinian suicide bomber the day
before yesterday, that took 2 Israeli innocent lives and seriously injured
6. And another yesterday, that took 5 Israeli innocent lives and injured
59. And now we'll have yet another obscene over-reaction by the Israeli
military, because the Palestinians CREATED Sharon. The cycle goes
on... It never ends. But somehow you'd blame the Jew (Why??? -- is
there a 'deeper' reason?), while it is clear that many Palestinians do not
WANT peace. As I've said (perhaps a dozen times here), ALL ARE
PUNISH'D.
PV
> J.
>
>
>
>
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:33:02 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:47:50 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
><jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> LOL ... reading these words, I had to scroll back up to the attribution
>>> lines, to make sure that you weren't talking about LDB ... :-O
>
>> Cerberus is merely a PV wannabe. You and I may have quite serious
>> disagreements about PV's worth/worthiness but stop and spare a thought
>> for the poor guy. Somewhere out there, there's someone who wants to
>> stick his tongue up PV's arse. If I was the latter, I'd be feeling
>> pretty creeped-out by that.
>>
>> You _should_ sympathise. After all, he-who-will-not-be-named wants to
>> stick his luncheonmeat truncheon up your arse and that must be a very
>> disturbing prospect, indeed.
>
>Jesus, I've lost my apetite ... :-(
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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t.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:33:02 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <slrnaoj6ee.1ekq....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <21b1da28.02091...@posting.google.com>
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><jonathan-AFBD79...@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
>Reply-To: pasdespa...@zeouane.org
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Just passing by
>
> Hmm. . .may I ask whether you are in favour of the jury system?
I think it is outdated and, in an era of media fuelled irrational
public hysteria over crime, can no longer be relied on to ensure the
fairest possible trial for a defendant. This is particularly true in
high profile murder trials where there is a strong and consistent
tendency for jurors to convict "just in case" the defendant did it,
rather than thoughtfully weigh up the evidence.
This is less true if the defendant is facing relatively minor charges
because of the less serious possible consequences of erroneously
acquitting. Most jurors could live with discovering that someone they
had acquitted of stealing a car had then gone on to steal another one.
But what if that defendant before them, accused of child murder, who
they were tempted to acquit because of a lack of any real evidence,
murdered another child after they, effectively, released him?
And what good is a jury in cases where the complexity of the evidence
is such that it totally baffles them? Fraud trials, such as that of
the Maxwell brothers in the UK some years ago, often include evidence
that goes far over the jurors' heads and so will have no bearing on
the verdict. The same is true in trials involving detailed medical
evidence (no prizes for guessing which one immediately springs to my
mind). In such cases, only a jury comprised of doctors, scientists,
etc. could ever do justice to the evidence.
The jury system is particularly unsuited to the United States for two
reasons.
1. The practice of electing prosecutors inevitably results in
dishonest individuals, seeking to climb the political ladder,
infiltrating and polluting the justice system. The more cases they
win, the more votes they can rely on at election time. So, inevitably,
the temptation to frame innocent people becomes strong when their
political careers are at stake. And political crooks such as J.
Michael Fitzsimmons and Thomas Reilly soon learn that many cases are
won not in the courtroom, but before the trial through the media,
which they use to manipulate the jurors before they have even become
jurors. And that brings me to the second reason.
2. The United States First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of
speech, has been hijacked by corrupt prosecutors and bent journalists
they use to pollute jury pools before trials begin. In the UK, once a
person has been charged with a crime, the media are prevented by law
from passing any potentially prejudicial comments about the case. The
whole case is subjudice and journalists can be jailed for contempt if
they behave as their American counterparts routinely do. A number of
trials have had to be abandoned, and the defendants freed with all
charges dropped, when judges have deemed pre-trial media comments to
have risked influencing jurors. These include a serious terrorism
trial a few years back in which an alleged IRA terrorist was freed
because a newspaper referred to him as "the bomber".
I prefer the Dutch system - which does not use juries - to both the UK
and US ones.
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
....You 'stand for' your words... but
>they conflict with themselves.
Then juxtapose my statements in direct quotations what in concrete would
conflict IYO. Actually, there is absolutely nothing contradictory in my
posts.
......, with your silly comment regarding the 53rd
>U.S. State being Israel. I certainly don't have to accept that analysis.
>Nor will I. At that particular moment it became very clear to me, that
>you would gladly accept the destruction of Israel, and relocation of all
>Jews to Montana or another State in the U.S.
Clear to you, totally unclear to anyone else. The image 'Israel as an
US-State' underlines the totally unreflected and unilateral US-support of
Israel, regardless the overwhelming strength of Israel in comparizon to the
Palestinians.
That I would by this metaphoric expression opt for a destruction of Israel
is a pure fabrication.
<I snipped here a most amusing argument, where was claimed 'Jürgen attacks
the US; Jürgen sets US and Israel equal; thus Jürgen attacks the Jews
alongside with the US; thus, Jürgen is anti semitic'>
>> Well, I fed your whole reply in my translator, and that's what returned:
>>
>> 'I have no idea what to reply. No fundament in sight for Israel's right
to
>> exist on Palestinian ground beyond Jürgen's reasoning.'
>>
>yeah... yeah.. yeah. Silly remark having nothing to offer but such
>silliness. <more allegatory accusations snipped>
Hic Rhodos, Domine, hic salta.
You claimed the "fait accompli"-argument an insufficient reasoning for
Israel's existence, and had even the impudence to allege in this context any
"Anti-Semitism" from my side, since I would present *only* this, so to say,
play-down-argument. You tried to make my argument appear a pseudo-argument -
so allez-hopp; then post *your* advanced argument for Israel's right to
exist on the Palestinians' ground. Put up or shut up.
J.
dirtdog
by) wrote:
>"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<TSji9.2581$bK2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...
>
>>
>> Hmm. . .may I ask whether you are in favour of the jury system?
>
>
>I think it is outdated and, in an era of media fuelled irrational
>public hysteria over crime, can no longer be relied on to ensure the
>fairest possible trial for a defendant. This is particularly true in
>high profile murder trials where there is a strong and consistent
>tendency for jurors to convict "just in case" the defendant did it,
>rather than thoughtfully weigh up the evidence.
Spot on.The average Briton, for example is, I am afraid to say, thick
as fuck - especially with regard to Law, the legal process and the
rationale employed to justify our taking sanction against those who
commit criminal acts.
Aside from the ridiculous assumption that the lay juror will have the
faintest _clue_ what the evidence before them in more complex cases
means (which you quite correctly go on to discuss later on in this
article), one must question the ability of the 'man on the street' to
solemnly assess his duty to maintain the most basic tenets of a
criminal trial - most importantly the presumption of innocence.
The public are, in general, a loathsome collection of intellectual
sluggards who accept unquestioningly that which they are told by their
preferred section of the Media and give in to their basic desire to
seek scapegoats for the ills of the society which they help to
proliferate.
Thus, I put forward as exhibit 'A', videotape footage of hundreds of
_fuckwits_ rioting in the street outside a police station in England
because their feeble little minds could not handle the sight of a
police van carrying a woman accused of lying to the police in an
investigation regarding the murder of a pair of schoolgirls.
Presumably, a large percentage of these laypersons would be eligible
for jury duty. Would anyone care to discuss the chance that these
people would be able to separate their gut instinct based upon what
they have been fed by the Media from their duty to hear the evidence
of a case in a courtroom as though they had never heard of the matter
before? Does anyone believe that the average _commoner_ could manage
to completely disregard something they had read in 'The Mail' simply
because it was not mentioned at trial?
The answer is, of course, no. An ability to make such a separation, if
it exists at all, can only be confined to the most impassionate and
measured person, and I should wager it is highly unlikely that a
random 'cross-section' of the public will contain many fitting that
description.
However, the question arises as to what would be an alternative
solution. How about a system whereby we discard real peasants from the
decision making 'panel', and only allow more measured, respectable
members of the professional classes to sit on it? There would not need
to be so many of them, either. Surely, these people might manage to
detach themselves from their more primal instincts?
Hmmm. They tried that one. It hasn't worked. What you end up with,
sadly, is Middle _fucking_ England, or Magistrates as they're more
commonly called.
The conviction rate in the Crown Court is around 60%. The conviction
rate in Magistrates Courts is in fact around 98%. That's right, ninety
bastard eight percent. Your chance of being convicted in Magistrates
Court is _two thirds_ higher than your chance at Crown Court.
Methinks that the Magistrates Defendant does not get a fair trial.
Just remember, if anyone decides to go down the local Magistrates to
watch for a laugh and sees a pissed off young thug calling the beaks
who just sent him down for a month 'cunts', he was probably right.
Rather paradoxically, the Magistrates may be better suited to passing
judgement on the 'high-value' offenders they are denied jurisdiction
over. One slight inaccuracy of your article is your assertion that
juries 'do better' in assessing the guilt of lower profile cases, such
as car theft. They may well do, if they were allowed, but certainly in
England, the majority of such cases will be put before Magistrates -
the precise class most affected by petty theft and property crime, and
thus the people _least_ suited to taking an impassioned stand against
suspected offenders.
So what is the solution? There's only one left. Forget a random
selection of peasants and commoners, they can't be trusted. The upper
middle class layman has let himself down as well by being a law and
order zealot. So we must employ the Elite. Panels of specially
selected Lawyers, trained in Law, conversant with its rationale and
conscious of its role, should be formed. Its members should be chosen
carefully for only the most intellectually stable and contemplative by
a body with . They would be as near to perfect decision making
machines as the human condition allows.
Just one problem with that. Those people are all very busy getting
paid a phenomenal amount of money by the private sector _because_ of
their unique ability. The 'super-juries' would be left with a
collection of piss artists, fuckwits and second rate Lawyers who are
aways off sick - all of whom presently masquerade as the Judiciary.
<snipped article>
w00f
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:19:48 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip rote abuse }
>
> >> ROTFLMAO !! Now it's 'European flavour' ??? <hysterical laughter>
> >>
> > The original comment from me was in reference to the methods
> > employed by JPB in his posting style -- they represent that 'flavor'
> > I speak of.
>
>
> 'The fact is the preponderance of posters here are European ...'
>
> > There is nothing within that comment which implies
> > that a poster must have been 'born and raised' in Europe.
>
> have mentioned in his mild rebukes of you. Put simply, you
> stated that there were more posters on this newsgroup from Europe,
> than from the United States. I contradicted that view, and rather
> than simply accept that you were wrong, you start to twist and turn,
> posting rubbish such as the following ...
>
And clearly you ignored Peter Morris, and St. George. Tried to
'make' Keith an American. And then implied that Earl and Donna,
hold an American viewpoint, because they hold American passports.
Although they also hold European passports, live in Europe,
do not express American viewpoints, and do connect 'the people'
with 'the policy.'
> > My words were -- "The fact is the preponderance of posters here
> > are European and many WOULD equate a U.S. policy that they view
> > with distaste with the 'people' of the U.S. The 'flavor' spoken
> > of is those who view with distaste the 'people' of the U.S.
>
> That criterion would make a lot of Americans living in the United
> States into 'Europeans', and a lot of Europeans living in Europe into
> 'Americans', and as such makes no sense, and I suspect that you know it.
>
> I had the courage to acknowledge that I was mistaken concerning Judge
> Zobel's powers with regard to Rule 25[b][2]. Why are you apparently
> unable to accept that you can ever be wrong ?
Because I'm not in this particular case. There is no question that the
5 people I mention belong in that preponderance I speak of. Why can't
you admit you PURPOSELY lied in DECEIT by providing 'execreta' (sic)?
<clip 'mindless drivel'>
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |THE BITCH DROPPED THE BIKE ON MY TOE
|SO I DUMPED HER SORRY ASS
|AND MY 5 KIDS AS WELL
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:52:30 +0000
>
>Le Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:19:48 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip rote abuse }
>
>>> ROTFLMAO !! Now it's 'European flavour' ??? <hysterical laughter>
>>>
>> The original comment from me was in reference to the methods
>> employed by JPB in his posting style -- they represent that 'flavor'
>> I speak of.
>
>You made no mention of 'flavor' (sic). You wrote, and I quote ...
>
> 'The fact is the preponderance of posters here are European ...'
>
>> There is nothing within that comment which implies
>> that a poster must have been 'born and raised' in Europe.
>
>I suspect that this would be one of the 'lies' which John would
>have mentioned in his mild rebukes of you. Put simply, you
>stated that there were more posters on this newsgroup from Europe,
>than from the United States. I contradicted that view, and rather
>than simply accept that you were wrong, you start to twist and turn,
>posting rubbish such as the following ...
>
>> My words were -- "The fact is the preponderance of posters here
>> are European and many WOULD equate a U.S. policy that they view
>> with distaste with the 'people' of the U.S. The 'flavor' spoken
>> of is those who view with distaste the 'people' of the U.S.
>
>That criterion would make a lot of Americans living in the United
>States into 'Europeans', and a lot of Europeans living in Europe into
>'Americans', and as such makes no sense, and I suspect that you know it.
>
>I had the courage to acknowledge that I was mistaken concerning Judge
>Zobel's powers with regard to Rule 25[b][2]. Why are you apparently
>unable to accept that you can ever be wrong ?
>
>{ snip remainder of rote abuse and meaningless references to 'European
> flavour' ... }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
>lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news
feed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfee
d.freenet.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-fo
r-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Desi's and QZD's Racism and Bigotry encapsulated.
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:52:30 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 45
>Message-ID: <slrnaoloec.1idd....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3d817...@goliath.newsgroups.com>
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A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:amfend$3oq$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>
> ....You 'stand for' your words... but
> >they conflict with themselves.
>
> Then juxtapose my statements in direct quotations what in concrete would
> conflict IYO. Actually, there is absolutely nothing contradictory in my
> posts.
>
J -- "Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic"."
Yes -- it IS anti-Semitic to make a statement that is untrue in respect
to claiming the US provides a general license to Israel for the suppression
of Palestinians. I WILL criticize your claim and call it anti-Semitic.
J - "Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure
to the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going
concessions to the Palestinian people."
Simply more anti-Semitism. Since Israel belongs de jure to Israel.
You do not write the law. You do not determine what is right. It
belongs both de jure and de facto to the Jews, just as Germany
belongs to the Germans in law and in fact. The only country that
has some far-going concessions to make is Germany, in respect
to the Jew. Israel is a full-fledged member since 1949 of the U.N.,
as is recognized as a Nation by that organization, which includes
legal recognition by your country as well.
J - "As long as no strong *inner-Muslimic* counter-movement to the ideology
above will get its feet on the ground there is no chance to get this hatred under
control. Thus, for to come to a real solution of the conflict it is not
especially useful to glare at the hatemongers, which doubtlessly are present
not too few, but it rather is necessary to get clear *WHY* such hateful
attitudes do function as a "seed". An answer to 'What are the reasons for
terrorism's prosperity?' is what can lead to a solution. What however does
not lead to a solution is to support one side by bashing at the other."
About as useless a comment that one can imagine. It tries to HIDE the
true face of terrorism, and followed you having clipped very POSITIVE
quotes from Palestinian sources demonstrating where that hate comes
from. Which were
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'I would like to stand at the place and kill the Jew, who stands opposite
me. If each Arab kills one Jew, then no more Jews will be left.'
Mustafa Tlas, Syrian Secretary of Defense, Lebanese television LBC
6 May 2001.
'Have no mercy with the Jews, no matter, in which country. Fight against
them, wherever you meet them. Wherever you might be, kill the Jews
and Americans, who are like them, and who assist them. They all lie
in the same trench (fighting) against the Arabs and Muslims.'
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the ' Fatwa Council,' appointed
by the Palestinian autonomy authority, and former rector of the Islamic
University in Gaza, television of the Palestinian autonomy authority,
14 October 2000.
'Jews are Jews, whether Labor or Likud, Jew is Jews. There are no
moderate ones or supporters of peace among them. They are all liars.
We must massacre and kill them. As Allah the all powerful one says:
'Fight against them.' Allah will torture them with your hands and will
humiliate them and will help you, to overcome them and to release
the souls of the believers (...) They (the Jews) created her (Israel)
as an outpost of their civilization - and as a vanguard of their army
and as a sword of the West and of the Knight of the Cross, which
is hanging in this country over the heads of the Muslim monotheists.
They want Jews to be their leaders...'
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Fatwa Council, in the
mosque Zayd bin Sultan Nahyan in Gaza, 13 October 2000 (on
the day after the lynching murder of two Israeli reservists in Ramallah,
which they showed live on the Palestinian television." (2002:23)
'Each pious Muslim must participate in the Dshihad, in order to
liberate the robbed Palestine from the condemned heretical Jews
(...); of what advantage would be a normalization with the impure Jews?'
Iast Ibrahim, vice-president of the Iraq, on the summit conference of
the Islamic States, 12 November 2000." (2002:30).
"We will not give up one patch of ground in Palestine, from Haifa and
Jaffa and Akko and Mulabbas (Petah Tikvah) and Salamah and
Majdal (Ashkelon) and from the entire country and Gaza and the
West Jordan territory... '
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the 'Fatwa Council' of the
Palestinian autonomy authority, 13 October 2000, the day after
the lynching murder of two Israeli reservists in Ramallah, which they
showed live on the Palestinian television. (Haifa, Jaffa, Akko, Petah
Tikvah and Ashkelon are Israeli cities)." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:34)
'Even if we agreed, to proclaim our State, while it contains now only
22 per cent of Palestine, that is, the West Jordan territory and Gaza,
our final goal will still be the liberation of the entire historical Palestine
from the river (= Jordan) up to the sea (= Mediterranean) (...). We
differentiate between the strategic, long-term goals and the short term
political goals, which we must accept temporarily, due to international
pressure.'
Faisal al-Husseini, former Palestinian Minister for Jerusalem questions,
in the Egyptian newspaper al-Arabi 24 June 20001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:35)
'... if Allah wants it, this unfair State of Israel will be extinguished, this
unfair State of Great Britain will be extinguished (...) Blessed is he, who
leads de Dshihad, in order to accomplish Allah's will (...). Blessed is he,
who attaches a belt with explosives at his body or at the bodies of his
sons, to throw himself with this into the middle of a crowd of Jews...'
Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi in a lecture a few days after Jassir Arafat declared
an armistice, Palestinian television, 8 June 20001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:36)
'We teach the children that suicide assassination attempts will cause
the Israeli people to become afraid and that we are allowed to do that
(...), we teach them, that someone, who becomes a suicide assassin,
achieves the highest rank in the paradise.'
Palestinian advisor 'Paradise Camp' toward BBC, quoted after the
Jerusalem Post, 20 July 2001." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:36)
'All weapons must be directed against the Jews, Allah's enemies, which
the Koran describes as apes and pigs, worshippers of the calf and
worshipper of idols. Allah will let the Muslim rule over the Jew, we will
blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya
for Allah's justice against this rabble (...) We will enter Jerusalem and
Jaffa and Haifa and Ashkelon as conquerors (...), we bless all those,
who educate their children in the spirit of the djihad and martyrdom.
Blessed is, who fires a bullet into the head of a Jew.'
In a lecture, sent on the television of the Palestinian autonomy authority,
3 August 2001." Gal Ben Ari (2002:36, 37)
'The West has changed Islam into an enemy (...), already since the
wars of the Knights of the Cross (...). It is inconceivable that we, the
Muslims, will sign a treaty against another Muslim State (...). One must
bring the fear (the terror) over Allah's enemies (...). If these are terrorists,
then this is the best kind of terror, which there is (...). I do not believe
that a Muslim will allow it that a Muslim homeland, such as Palestine
and Jerusalem, remains in the hands of the Zionists (...). Each person
has the right, to transform himself into a human bomb and to explode
in this society (Israel) as a bomb.'
Sheikh Jussuf Al Kardawi, one of the most outstanding Islam scholars
(Doha, Qatar) in an interview for the TV organization El Dschazia, 16
September 20001." - Gal Ben Ari, The seed of hate. Jews and Israel
in the Arab media (2002:37, 38)
And From Palestinian school books ==
'It is a self-sacrifice, when a Muslim dies, while doing Allah's will (...).
A person, who dies in this way, is called a martyr (...). Self-sacrifice
for Allah is a hope for those, who believe in Allah and trust in his
promises. The martyr is glad, full of ecstasy, that he will go into the
paradise, which Allah has prepared for him.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, P. 112.
'The Muslim sacrifices himself for his faith and fights a Holy War
for Allah. He does not know cowardice, because he understands
that the time of his death has already been determined and that
it is better to die as a martyr on the battleground, than to die in bed.'
Islamic education for the 8th Class, P. 176.
'... Fighters and martyrs of the Holy War are the most honorable
persons after the prophets.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 103.
'I will take my soul into my own hand and hurl it (in the war) into
the abyss of death (...). You know, I do see my own death and
march toward it fast (...). You know - That is the death of men
and of the one (...), seeking an honorable death - that is death
pure and simple.'
Song of the martyrs, from: Our Arabic language for the 5th Class,
P. 60 and guide for the improvement of the Arabic language for
the 12th Class, P. 84.
'... The youth will not be fatigued, it will want to be either free or to
die. We scoop our water out of death. And we will not be slaves of
the enemies. Our symbol is the 'sword' and the 'feather', but not
'words'.'
My homeland, from: Palestinian national education for the 1st Class,
P. 67-68." - Gal Ben Ari (2002: 39, 40).
'The holy war is a religious obligation for each Muslim man and each
Muslim woman.'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, P. 167.
'Know this, my son, that Palestine is your country (...), its entire
earth has been soaked with the blood of the martyrs. Why do we have
to fight (against the Jews) and drive them from our country?'
Our Arabic language for the 5th Class, part I, P. 64-66." - Gal Ben
Ari (2002:43).
'My brothers! The suppressors (the Israelis) have crossed the borders.
Therefore Holy War and self-sacrifice are an obligation! (...) Should
we allow them to steal our Arab nature? (...) Draw your sword! Let us
collect for this with red blood and kindled fire. (...) Death will call the
sword and it will become mad from so many battles. Oh, Palestine,
your youth will save your country.'
Reading book & literary texts for the 10th Class, P. 120-122." - Gal
Ben Ari (2002:44).
'... in your left hand you carried the Koran, and in your right hand
an Arab sword (...) Not one centimeter (= of the land) will be freed
without blood. Therefore, go forward, and shout: Allah is great!'
Bayonet and torches, from: Reading book & literary texts for the 10th
Class, P. 131-135.
'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
Muslims over the Jews.'
Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You clipped them as fast as you could, and then said later --
J - "I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled in
wording and semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms
provided by you above."
WHERE??? Let's have some quotes. Since I've certainly provided
them.
J -- "Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel by
the US? This is exactly why the Western World is called liarish by the
Arabs. You, perfectly represening your entire nation, claim verbally a
balanced view, whilst you simultaneously are supporting and sponsoring
the _way_stronger_ side in a bilateral conflict."
Simply a distortion, since I do not support the totally un-reflected support of
Israel by the US... whatever that's supposed to mean. My argument
is not against the Palestinians (although you would like to pretend
that it is). My argument is against YOUR bias in favor of the Palestinians,
and the admitted non-efforts of Germany to even concern itself with
this conflict other than point to finger at the U.S. for not doing enough
or doing anything at all which does not achieve final results. One
only has to look at the VERY FIRST post in our current dialog. It
began with a post from YOU to me, in response to a post I had made
to desi, and you made a remark to me --
J -- "Well, a synopsis of the American effords over the last 50 years to do
respect to Palestinian vital interests were helpful at this point."
From that FIRST post from you to me... without ANY comment of mine
to YOU having provoked such a comment from you... you clearly
indicated your bias. There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt of that. In fact,
the comment of desi had not concerned itself with the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. It concerned itself with the possible invasion of Iraq. You
simply stuck your nose in.
J-- "there results no justification for neither the Jews nor the
Americans from to kill even ONE innocent human."
Is there ANY mention there of those killed by the Palestinians?
Of course not... which is the entire point of my dialog with you.
You see ONLY one side of this issue.
J -- "Fact is that Israel is in no way threatened in her existence."
Apparently you need to read the comments above again. In truth,
Israel is MORE threatened in her existence in the LONG term than
the Palestinian. While Palestinians are only threatened with the
loss of territories in any final settlement, the longer this drags out.
Israel has had to fight for its existence since it was first created.
The historical evidence is there for anyone open-minded enough
to examine it. Such as AGAIN - The Covenant of Hamas see
http://www.jmcc.org/new/01/dec/hamasstate.htm
See that IT says in its preamble -- "ON THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL:
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as
it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)"
Are you actually so naive that you believe "Israel is in no way threatened
in her existence"?
You claimed I said -- 'If Palestinian civilians are shot and bombed in their
houses then this is more legitime than suicide bombings' - Actually, I
said no such thing. I am being criticized in another thread because
of a presumption of quoting someone, while you go ahead and try to make
it appear you were quoting me. Although I will be frank here, and state
I find that much of the CURRENT Palestinian woes are those of their
own making. I can see NO winner in this conflict... only losers. I am
totally against the West Bank expansion of Israel, but I do believe she
has a right to defend herself from terrorist attacks.
J -- "The difference between the US and Europe is that the latter know the
essential rules of diplomacy. You and your fabulous nation have difficulties
to even UNDERSTAND that anyone taking sides in the game can not
simultaneously give the part of the referee."
Yes, Germany does not wish to be a 'referee' in this conflict. They only
wish to sit on the sidelines, and root for one side in favor to the other... and
we all know what that side will be. You've already showed it to us.
J -- "Well, a synopsis of the American effords over the last 50 years to do
respect to Palestinian vital interests were helpful at this point."
Obviously losing touch with reality, since I will repeat only a few of the
efforts made by the U.S. -- I defy you to offer any comparative contributions
made by your country or Europe itself --
Who negotiated the original Camp David accord between Begin and
Sadat? The U.S. and then President Carter is who. See --
http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/documents/campdavid/index.phtml
Who later held marathon negotiations at Camp David between Arafat
and then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak? The U.S. and then
President Clinton is who. See
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0hls0
Who negotiated the Oslo Peace Accord? The same President
Clinton is who. See --
http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/oslo2.htm
Who mediated an Oct 1998 summit at Wye Mills, Maryland between
Netanyahu and Arafat with a late assist from an ailing King Hussein of
Jordan? The same President Clinton is who. See --
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/newsfacts-wyeaccord.html
Who arranged and played a role in the 1991 Madrid peace
conference that launched negotiations between Israel and its Arab
neighbors? Then President George Bush is who. See --
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00p60
Who proposed a peace plan in 1982 that did not sit well with Israel
at all? The U.S. and then President Reagan is who. -- see
http://www.jerusalemites.org/peace8.html
Who led a fact finding committee that recommended the Israeli
government freeze all settlement activity, including the natural growth
of existing settlements? U.S. Senator George Mitchell is who. See
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_mitchell.php
Do you have any idea how many envoys have been dispatched? How
many high-level State Department officials, including a number of
Secretary's of State have visited that region? See --
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/trvl/8515.htm
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/summit/sectrip.htm
http://www.aaiusa.org/news/staffart072692.htm
http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/press/visits/january98/
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/christopher.html
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/shultz.html
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/haig.html
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/vance.html
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/kissinger.html
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/sectravels/rogers.html
How many Americans have died simply in trying to keep the peace in
that area? The Beirut Embassy... the Marine
barracks. See
http://www.terrorismvictims.org/terrorists/beirut-marine-barracks.html
These are only a few of the efforts of the U.S. Do you have any idea
how many U.S. arrangements for a cease-fire have been scuttled by
one side or the other, usually met with the European press somehow
finding the blame to be the effort itself? While Europe stands frozen
in a pathetic posture of 'do nothing to upset the flow of oil'?
PV -- "Is there any behavior of the Palestinian terrorist which would
cause YOU to change YOUR support?"
J -- "You are wrong. I do not support Hamas, AlQua'eda, or any
'drive-the-Jews-into-the-sea'-Palestinians. I do support *NO* zealots. Not
the Taleban, not the Fatah, not the Hamas, not the Intifada, no Skinheads,
no American fundamentalists."
Actually, not even TRYING to answer the question... just replying
with some sanctimonious crap that 'I hate terrorists.' Well. don't we
all. Except the 'side' that you seem to support in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. Terrorists there seem to be calling the shot.
J -- "People begin supporting terrorism if they are frauded chances and
perspectives. Arafat has the support of Palestinians."
J -- "I do not support Arafat. You make this up."
Trust me, that I find in your first statement, a clear indication that
you DO support Arafat... since you support the Palestinians, who
you claim support Arafat (a more unlikely theory has never been
posed -- hardly anyone from any side supports Arafat).
J -- "Any consequences exceeding lip-services? Is there a behavior of Israel
thinkable which would seriously endanger Israel to loose the US-support, or
is Israel factually free in action?"
Israel is factually free in action. Witness
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1023-01.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/01/22/intl/intl.2.html
J -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner and declare
Israel the 53 US-state?"
Clearly, your implication in the first statement is that Israel is factually free
in action, regardless of the U.S. efforts. While you then go on to state it is
presumed as 'constitutionally' connect to the U.S. as one of its States.
Which is it -- factually free in action (as everyone knows it is), or
subject to the Constitution and laws of the U.S.?
> ......, with your silly comment regarding the 53rd
> >U.S. State being Israel. I certainly don't have to accept that analysis.
> >Nor will I. At that particular moment it became very clear to me, that
> >you would gladly accept the destruction of Israel, and relocation of all
> >Jews to Montana or another State in the U.S.
>
> Clear to you, totally unclear to anyone else. The image 'Israel as an
> US-State' underlines the totally unreflected and unilateral US-support of
> Israel, regardless the overwhelming strength of Israel in comparizon to the
> Palestinians.
> That I would by this metaphoric expression opt for a destruction of Israel
> is a pure fabrication.
>
'metaphoric expression'??? You really have lost touch with reality.
You've boxed yourself in so thoroughly, and realize that YOU are not
the one who should even be in this argument, given the historical
significance of your country's past. Yet, you can't get out. You went
from a total condemnation of Israel... and the U.S... to a hypocritical
claim now that you see both sides. But you don't. Your argument in
regards to de jure... clearly shows me that you don't ACCEPT the
existence of Israel in LAW... you simply see it as I've said before... better
there than in Bavaria... and better in Montana than there. Which is
only a small step to saying better in the ocean than in Montana.
>
> <I snipped here a most amusing argument, where was claimed 'Jürgen attacks
> the US; Jürgen sets US and Israel equal; thus Jürgen attacks the Jews
> alongside with the US; thus, Jürgen is anti semitic'>
>
You've clipped a lot of arguments, sport. All of them when they seem to
disagree with your conclusions. There is a clear connection to attacking
the U.S., for what you presume are its 'policies' in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict, and then claim that Israel is the 53rd U.S. State, to an
anti-Semitic view. Look... you ARE 'complaining' that the U.S. 'helps'
Israel. You are complaining that the U.S. supports the Jews. My God,
my man... that reeks of the methods used in the early 30s in Germany,
where those who did business with Jews were considered assisting those
Jews. Wasn't THAT anti-Semitic? You are setting yourself up in front
of a Jewish store and carrying that all-too-familiar sign which states
'don't go in this store, because it's run by Jews.'
> >> Well, I fed your whole reply in my translator, and that's what returned:
> >>
> >> 'I have no idea what to reply. No fundament in sight for Israel's right
> to
> >> exist on Palestinian ground beyond Jürgen's reasoning.'
> >>
> >yeah... yeah.. yeah. Silly remark having nothing to offer but such
> >silliness. <more allegatory accusations snipped>
>
> Hic Rhodos, Domine, hic salta.
drunk again, huh??
> You claimed the "fait accompli"-argument an insufficient reasoning for
> Israel's existence, and had even the impudence to allege in this context any
> "Anti-Semitism" from my side, since I would present *only* this, so to say,
> play-down-argument. You tried to make my argument appear a pseudo-argument -
> so allez-hopp; then post *your* advanced argument for Israel's right to
> exist on the Palestinians' ground. Put up or shut up.
Oh.. I've put up all right.... now tell me what Germany has done in
respect to this conflict... since I seem to remember you said doing
nothing was the best thing to do. Considering the events of the past
three days... does that still seems like a good idea? How many more
lives do you intend to do nothing about?
J -- "Germany does very, very well in holding a neutral position in this conflict.
Very, very well, Sir. Very, very, very well."
ROTFLMAO --- A 'neutral' position?? Ummm... what about?....
http://germanyalert.com/
Where it is reported from Germany that "Neo-Nazi threat escalates
as supporters speak of Martyrdom."
Then we have --
January 25, 2002 - Berlin - A Molotov cocktail was thrown at a synagogue.
March 3, 2002 - Dusseldorf - Swastikas found painted on a Jewish school.
March 16, 2002 - Berlin - Explosion at a Jewish cemetery.
March 30 - Berlin - Swastika painted on a Holocaust memorial.
March 31 - Berlin - Two American Orthodox Jews beaten.
April 15, 2002 - Berlin - Jewish woman wearing a Star of David
necklace attacked.
April 15, 2002 - Herford - "Six Million is not enough." found
painted on a synagogue. April 20, 2002 - Dachau - Monument
desecrated, and gravestones at nearby Jewish cemetery
damaged.
April 28, 2002 - Berlin - Molotov cocktail thrown at a synagogue.
These are ONLY incidents in the short time-frame of 3 months.
The total list would be much too long for this post. And all of
these incidents demonstrate that any view you might have
on the Israeli/Palestinian issue is riddled with anti-Semitism...
proven as well by your comment.
PV
>
> J.
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:amfend$3oq$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>
>> A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>>
>>
>> ....You 'stand for' your words... but
>> >they conflict with themselves.
>>
>> Then juxtapose my statements in direct quotations what in concrete would
>> conflict IYO. Actually, there is absolutely nothing contradictory in my
>> posts.
>>
>
>J -- "Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US
to
>Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic"."
>
>Yes -- it IS anti-Semitic to make a statement that is untrue in respect
>to claiming the US provides a general license to Israel for the suppression
>of Palestinians. I WILL criticize your claim and call it anti-Semitic.
>
>J - "Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure
>to the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going
>concessions to the Palestinian people."
>
I will not read 26 kB of such BS, Meister. The statement above is not
anti-Semitic but true (first sentence) and appropriate (second sentence),
and I furthermore wrote why Israel has nevertheless the right to exist. I am
missing after your accusations another, advanced reasoning, stronger that
the mine, which would legitimate Israel's existence. And no chance that I
would read your never ending lamenti.
Put reason here:
____________________________
J.
John Rennie
It no way are your remarks anti-Semitic, Jurgen. PV adopts the American
attitude that any remarks criticising the legitimacy of Israel or her doings
are such. However, much as I have deplored the establishment of the
State of Israel and its completely ILLEGITIMATE claim to the land of
Palestine, one has to accept
that it exists just as many other communities exist notably the
Scottish/English Protestant community 'planted' amongst the Catholic Irish.
If you continue to challenge its presence there, you are threatening the
lives of five or six million inhabitants of Israel and you must expect a
strong reaction. Israel now consists
of mostly third generation Israelis who have very little interest in the
legitimacy of their presence; they merely wish to survive and we should do
everything in our power to help them so survive. Sharon and his ilk will
not ensure their survival. Even now as he humiliates Arafat once more, he
does more than anyone to build up Hamas and to ensure a steady supply of
suicide bombers. I think, Jurgen, you should realise that Sharon is a
great embarrassment to Bush and Powell - they both realise that Sharon is
deliberately stoking up the violence because it happens to suit his purposes
which is to involve America in a war in the middle east. To involve them
so completely that they will never escape from it. He, Sharon, is not
just satisfied with the settlements on the West Bank. The extreme Zionists
wish to extend the borders of Israel far farther than that. The real
danger is that criticism of Israel and her expansionist ambitions is
immediately regarded as
anti-Semitic and none of us wants to be regarded as that.so the we keep
quiet.
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:amh9qi$l2s$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
1) In a thread that had nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict,
but concerned itself with the possible invasion of Iraq... you posted to
me, interrupting a post I had provided to desi, with this comment --
"Well, a synopsis of the American effords over the last 50 years to do
respect to Palestinian vital interests were helpful at this point."
Then you also stated, in your next post, after becoming rather hysterical --
"Why do you not simply add another star in your banner and declare
Israel the 53 US-state?"
Both statements rather 'accuse' the U.S. of 'consorting' with that -filthy- (sic)
Jew. And, just as in Germany in the 30s, your comment, IMHO,
implies that those who 'consort' with that -filthy- (sic) Jew are being
disloyal to the rest of 'civilized' society. Clearly, your second comment
forms a mental connection to the 'Jewish Star' necessarily placed on
the window of all Jewish businesses in the 30s in Germany, IMHO.
'Star'... my friend.. is a very 'inappropriate' word for a German to use in
forming an analogy to any problem connected to the Jew. Claiming
placement of a 'star' on any symbolic representation, meant to imply
'identification of the Jew' in a negative manner, is very troubling to me.
Probably it was an inadvertent analogy... but its meaning was not lost
on me.
And, of course, you totally ignored my listing of those efforts, claiming
it would be better -diplomatically- to do nothing.
2) "Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure
to the Palestinians."
The clearest statement possible that you have an emphatic belief that the
Jew is 'occupying' Palestinian land. UNMISTAKABLY stating that the Jew
has no LEGAL 'right' to have the nation of Israel. This is quite anti-Semitic,
IMHO. It presumes that the Jew has 'NO LEGAL PLACE' in which to live.
Just as the Storm Trooper of the 30s, would insist that the Jew had no right
to own his own business, IMHO.
3) "there results no justification for neither the Jews nor the
Americans from to kill even ONE innocent human."
Is there ANY mention there of those killed by the Palestinians?
Of course not... which is the entire point of my dialog with you.
You see ONLY one side of this issue. And the side you see,
to the exclusion of the other side, IMHO, demonstrates anti-Semitism.
4) "Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going concessions to the
Palestinian people."
This particular comment disproves any belief I might have that
you have a 'balanced' view... Clearly BOTH sides must make
EQUAL concessions. Neither side is more 'right' or more 'wrong' in
this conflict. Your comment most certainly demonstrates a bias
IN FAVOR of the Palestinian. There is no other way I can parse
any other meaning into your words, other than you lean toward
the Palestinians, yet you claim to be -unbiased.- This may
not indicate anti-Semitism, but it certainly appears to undermine
any claims you might make to being -unbiased.-
You will see I have added a few IMHO. Because this is the reasoning
that 'I' have formed in finding your comments in respect to the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict to be tinged with anti-Semitism. And
biased favorably to the Palestinian side of this argument.
> ____________________________
PV
> J.
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:55Xi9.4080$DR.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly..."
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
> PV adopts the American
> attitude that any remarks criticising the legitimacy of Israel or her doings
> are such. However, much as I have deplored the establishment of the
> State of Israel and its completely ILLEGITIMATE claim to the land of
> Palestine,
There is just as much legitimacy to the existence of Israel as
there is to ANY nation. The U.N. has recognized that legitimacy, in
General Assembly Resolution 181, from Nov 29,1947. The USSR and the
U.S. did so in 1948. On May 11, 1949, the U.N. General Assembly
voted to admit Israel as a legitimate member by a vote of 37 to 12.
You might as well claim the U.S. is still a colony of the British Empire.
Israel has declared its independence and has fought to keep it. Having
done so on 14 May 1948, even before the U.N. admission. And has had
to fight for that existence from the very NEXT DAY. The U.K. recognized
it as legitimate in 1950. You simply make a statement without
it having the slightest substantiation except your opinion. Yet you try
to present it as fact. Clearly Israel exists in LAW... which makes it a
fact. And I don't really know how to 'term it'... but someone who obsessively
fails to accept this legitimacy, as has Jürgen, in his "belongs de jure to the
Palestinians" comment has an agenda that rather smells like a three-day-old
fish, left out in the sun too long, to me. One does not state something
that silly unless there is MORE to it than is spoken. You can certainly
claim that -having made it legitimate was wrong -, but one cannot deny
what is a fact. It's as silly as claiming the DP is illegitimate, when it
exists in the law. I get rather disturbed when someone claims --- yes...
Israel 'exists'... so I don't believe it should be destroyed... but it's
not 'legitimate' --- That sounds hypocritical to me. It IS legitimate... in
spite of all its most obvious flaws helped on by a Jewish paranoia that can
be somewhat understood considering that the day after it proclaimed its
existence (much as the U.S. did around 1776), there was a concerted
effort to destroy every remnant of that existence. What actually needs
to be done is to make the Palestinian State as legitimate as Israel is.
> one has to accept
> that it exists just as many other communities exist notably the
> Scottish/English Protestant community 'planted' amongst the Catholic Irish.
That's absurd. There is no comparison. One might as well expect
to claim the Kurdish presence in Iraq can be compared to Israel. The
State of Israel exists as a legitimate Nation. There is no question of
that. The 'Nation' you speak of, has no legitimate existence. Neither
does the Kurdish 'Nation' (although whether either of them 'should' or
'should not' BE legitimate, is an entirely different argument).
> If you continue to challenge its presence there, you are threatening the
> lives of five or six million inhabitants of Israel and you must expect a
> strong reaction. Israel now consists
> of mostly third generation Israelis who have very little interest in the
> legitimacy of their presence; they merely wish to survive and we should do
> everything in our power to help them so survive.
Couldn't agree more. I think they are only AWARE that others would
find their existence 'illegitimate.' Unless it THREATENS them, they
don't concern themselves that much with it. Of course, I believe they
find this troubling, in a personal sense. Feeling that they are just
as aggrieved as the Palestinians. But I believe you are right that they
only wish to survive and we should insure that survival. I also believe they
have no 'right' to the West Bank, and their continued expansion in that
region is disgusting, IMHO. In the eyes of the world, it would do much to
enhance the image that Israel portrays on the world stage, by effecting
such an immediate and total withdrawal. Lest anyone believe I only
provide links to pro-Israeli sources -- See
http://www.poica.org/casestudies/Bethlehem12-09-02/index.htm
> Sharon and his ilk will
> not ensure their survival.
Couldn't agree more. Sharon is a tragedy for both the Jew and the
Palestinian. He is to Israel, what Le Pen is to the French. Fortunately
for France, Le Pen does not hold the power than Sharon holds.
Arafat, on the other hand, holds a practically insignificant amount
of power among the Palestinians.
> Even now as he humiliates Arafat once more, he
> does more than anyone to build up Hamas and to ensure a steady supply of
> suicide bombers. I think, Jurgen, you should realise that Sharon is a
> great embarrassment to Bush and Powell - they both realise that Sharon is
> deliberately stoking up the violence because it happens to suit his purposes
> which is to involve America in a war in the middle east. To involve them
> so completely that they will never escape from it. He, Sharon, is not
> just satisfied with the settlements on the West Bank. The extreme Zionists
> wish to extend the borders of Israel far farther than that. The real
> danger is that criticism of Israel and her expansionist ambitions is
> immediately regarded as anti-Semitic and none of us wants to be regarded
> as that.so the we keep quiet.
When one criticizes ONLY one side in this conflict, it is rather obvious
that it is not a 'balanced' observation. A case in point is the very latest
round of violence. After a six-week pause... suicide bombers resume
their 'tactics,' and Israel responds with its equally repulsive 'tactics.'
PV
>