Anyone ever visit the 'TRINITY SITE' in NM where 1st test occurred?
Eric Cartman
planning to try to make it the 2 days its open to the
public?
Much to see, what did you think, guided tours?
Thanks!
Tom J
http://goamericanwest.com/newmexico/trinity.shtml
I have better places to go and see, besides, it's still radio active
enough that I don't care to go there ever, just like Oak Ridge, TN
Tom J
Ducking ;-)
Eric Cartman
Thanks, but I have seen several web sites, just wondering if
it worth the effort to see first hand.
Mark-in-OR
>enough that I don't care to go there ever, just like Oak Ridge, TN
>
>Tom J
>Ducking ;-)
Whilst there's really not much to see at Trinity.. a concrete slab, some
rusting steel, and glassy sand, Oak Ridge is fascinating. There's a great
museum and the original carbon pile reactor is open for visits.
Mark
.
Janet Wilder
J <tom...@dispammed.com> writes:
>I have better places to go and see, besides, it's still radio active
>enough that I don't care to go there ever, just like Oak Ridge, TN
>
We were in Oak Ridge this Fall. Didn't notice either of us glowing in the
dark, but we just went to the museum in town. Most of the area around the
facilities was closed due to Homelend Security. Interesting place!
J
The Road Princess
Residentially Challenged
Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility
LewBob
I visited the Trinity site during the open house day in 2002, the first
since 9/11. I was visiting Socorro, N.M., at the time, so it wasn't much of
a detour. I got at the north entrance gate about half an hour before opening
and had to wait in line to drive to the site, but that wasn't a big hassle.
The site itself has a stone monument at Ground Zero and some informational
signs pointing out some other things, including mockups of the bomb. You can
catch an Air Force shuttle bus to the nearby ranch house that was the
scientists' headquarters and were the guts of the bomb was assembled.
The stark scene is a far cry from the typical National Park Service
presentation. The Air Force isn't very savvy about public relations and site
interpretation. Still, it's a significant site in American (and world)
history. For that reason alone, I am glad I went. It was a moving
experience.
Curiously, there were several Japanese nationals at the site when I was
there. They were posing for photos at the monument. It made me feel rather
strange. I wish I could have conversed with them about their motives for
being there and their sentiments.
Three of the passengers on the shuttle bus ride that I took to the ranch
house were a father and his two high-school age sons. They had driving
straight through from the Carolina coast to catch the one-day event. The
father was quite disappointed by the lack of educational materials at the
site. He and I agree that the Air Force was missing a real opportunity.
Still, he and I agreed that the visit was worthwhile.
Lew
"Eric Cartman" <Eric...@SBC.com> wrote in message
news:_LpJb.20539$nK2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Eric Cartman
Thanks!
The Japanese visitors is interesting, I still wonder their
true feelings toward the US about the bombs, and some of the
personal thoughts of survivors and their familys.
It would be very interesting to get some views from the
Japanese, especially some of the older folks on what
change the bombs made to their family and culture.
I read the 'Hiroshima' 100pg book 20+ years ago and
it was a very impacting read, this by a young
survivor of the bomb.
Neon John
Trinity site is really only meaningful if you're a nuclear engineer, physicist
or nukophile. To us, it's like that big black stone in Mecca the moslems hike
from all over to see. The beginning of it all. The nuclear alpha. To
everyone else it's just some desert with some rubble sticking up out of the
sand.
The most fascinating part is the Trinitite, the green fused sand where the
fireball touched the desert floor. Here's a photo of some from my collection:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/nuke/Trinitite_krytron.jpg
Next to it is a krytron tube, a high speed switch used in the detonator
circuits of early bombs. This is the device people with long memories will
recall that Israeli agents got popped trying to smuggle out of the US in,
what?, the early 70s or something like that. This one was used in detonator
design work at Los Alamos, probably in the late 40s.
Unlike the wild claims such as made at this site,
http://goamericanwest.com/newmexico/trinity.shtml, Trinitite is NOT very
radioactive. Most all the fission and activation products have long since
decayed. There is probably as much natural thorium in the sand as there is
fission byproducts. While barely detectable on a thin window GM counter, it
is probably 10X less radioactive than ordinary potassium chloride salt
substitute.
Unfortunately both the Atomic Energy Museum and the Graphite Reactor have been
effectively destroyed by relatively recent government action. The Georgia
White Trash (Carter) started the destruction of the Energy Museum, by having
his energy department remove most of the very interesting nuclear exhibits,
particularly the ones involving actual radioactive materials. Reagan's
administration gave it benign neglect. The active destruction commenced again
with the Arkansas White Trash (Klinton). During his admin, almost all the
nuclear exhibits were removed. About all that remained when I visited 2 years
ago was a cell from the Calutron and a few photos. The rest of the museum is
now an enviro-whacko shrine. Funny, Klinton did the same thing to the
Warner-Robbinson AF museum in Georgia.
If you're interested in reading propaganda and outright lies about how solar,
wind, biomass and other "alternative" (read: nonexistent) energy sources will
save the world, then by all means go. Otherwise it's a wasted trip.
The Graphite Reactor is suffering an even worse fate. It's being demolished.
When I was there 2 years ago, most of the building had been taken over for
bureaucrat office space. Only the face of the reactor and some of the control
room (highly vandalized) remain intact and open. The ability to climb up and
around the reactor has been removed. The area is now locked.
DOE announced within the last year that they plan on destroying the reactor
for "safety" reasons, leaving only the face intact. They claim the reactor is
still "dangerously radioactive". Neither their numbers nor my measurements
bear that out.
I took a handheld meter with me on my last visit, just because I was curious.
No activity at all detected at the face of the reactor. None in the handling
room. Yanking a shield plug and thrusting the instrument in yielded only the
slightest activity. This is exactly what I expected, since the graphite was
extraordinarily pure (nothing to neutron activate) and since the thing was
shut down about 50 years ago.
There is a significant segment of government and academia that want to deny
our nuclear past, to apologize for our having developed and used the bomb and
to deny the nearly 60 years of peace it brought. They think that an
ingredient in this process is wiping the face of the earth of anything
nuclear.
This is happening all over. All the other historically significant facilities
around the Graphite Reactor such as the first fast flux reactor, are long
gone. Rocky Flats, Hanford and other major sites are being leveled. Even at
the Wright Patterson AF museum I found the nuclear stuff discarded and
neglected when I visited last year. The Fatman casing was sitting off in a
construction area covered with dirt. The more modern bombs (training models)
were off in an unlit corner of a hanger. I found them only by accident. Only
Bockscar is on prominent display. Even the BUFF on display only mentions the
SAC's role in a by-the-way manner. Most attention is given to the
mis-application of the BUFF in Viet-Nam, ignoring the nearly 50 years of
non-stop, around the clock nuclear patrolling by SAC.
As someone who played a small part in that segment of our country's history,
it really pisses me to see how it's being treated.
I'm OK now. I'm off my soapbox.....
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Mark-in-OR
>physicist
>or nukophile.
True..but for most folks, I figure it would be a disappointment. For some of
us, to grasp the (what is now) low-tech methods, etc. is vital. Ok...for me at
least. I used to marvel at the Wright Brothers shop and windtunnel for the
same reason.
>
>Unfortunately both the Atomic Energy Museum and the Graphite Reactor have
>been
>effectively destroyed by relatively recent government action
Ah crap... I visited there in the late 80's and it was fascinating. The guard
shacks on the highway, etc. Pity. It had a lot of good info on the town and
the brains who did the research.
>The Graphite Reactor is suffering an even worse fate. It's being demolished.
This even more of a shame that paranoia is wiping it out. It was fascinating
to walk around on the overhead catwalk and even just to get a sense of the
implications of the project.
>Even at
>the Wright Patterson AF museum I found the nuclear stuff discarded and
>neglected when I visited last year. The Fatman casing was sitting off in a
>construction area covered with dirt. The more modern bombs (trainiing models)
>were off in an unlit corner of a hanger. I found them only by accident.
>Only
>Bockscar is on prominent display. Even the BUFF on display only mentions the
>SAC's role in a by-the-way manner. Most attention is given to the
>mis-application of the BUFF in Viet-Nam, ignoring the nearly 50 years of
>non-stop, around the clock nuclear patrolling by SAC.
Well the Vietnam stuff is what draws teh crowds. Early on, they had a great WWI
and WWII collection with some decent Korean stuff. IIRC, the Korean stuff was
disappearing last time I was there (maybe 15 years ago..). Even the WWI and
WWII stuff was being "re-packaged" into smaller areas while the space stuff was
expanding.
Did/do they still have the XB-70 and B-58 Hustler? Those are kinda' undeniably
nuke since that was what they were designed for.
I was raised just down the road from the AFMuseum. (It's current location).
Fondly remember the old place in Fairborn and then the moving of all the
aircraft to the new site.
>John
Mark
.
HHamp5246
pri...@aol.comupyours (Janet Wilder) writes:
>We were in Oak Ridge this Fall. Didn't notice either of us glowing in the
>dark, but we just went to the museum in town. Most of the area around the
>facilities was closed due to Homelend Security. Interesting place!
My Tennessee farm was right down the road from Oak Ridge. Where did you stay?
Crosseyed Cricket? Melton Hill Dam? Soaring Eagle?
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm
My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm
"You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."
Janet Wilder
hham...@aol.comnojunk (HHamp5246) writes:
>>We were in Oak Ridge this Fall. Didn't notice either of us glowing in the
>>dark, but we just went to the museum in town. Most of the area around the
>>facilities was closed due to Homelend Security. Interesting place!
>
>My Tennessee farm was right down the road from Oak Ridge. Where did you stay?
>
>Crosseyed Cricket? Melton Hill Dam? Soaring Eagle?
>
About 4 rigs down from you in Raccoon Valley. I know you were there. I was in
your trailer and scratched the dogs and petted the cats. Have you had your
coffee yet? <g>
HHamp5246
pri...@aol.comupyours (Janet Wilder) writes:
>About 4 rigs down from you in Raccoon Valley. I know you were there. I was
in your trailer and scratched the dogs and petted the cats. Have you had your
coffee yet? <g>
>
That was you?
No, I hadn't...
Hunter, feeling stupid
Lone Haranguer
>
> This is happening all over. All the other historically significant facilities
> around the Graphite Reactor such as the first fast flux reactor, are long
> gone. Rocky Flats, Hanford and other major sites are being leveled. Even at
> the Wright Patterson AF museum I found the nuclear stuff discarded and
> neglected when I visited last year. The Fatman casing was sitting off in a
> construction area covered with dirt. The more modern bombs (training models)
> were off in an unlit corner of a hanger. I found them only by accident. Only
> Bockscar is on prominent display. Even the BUFF on display only mentions the
> SAC's role in a by-the-way manner. Most attention is given to the
> mis-application of the BUFF in Viet-Nam, ignoring the nearly 50 years of
> non-stop, around the clock nuclear patrolling by SAC.
>
> As someone who played a small part in that segment of our country's history,
> it really pisses me to see how it's being treated.
>
It's the politically correct flunkies they put in charge of these
displays. I had to chew out some young captain who had been in charge
of the Korean War display at Wright-Pat. He featured an experimental
aircraft that had flown ONCE during the Korean War era and never
mentioned the B-26 which even a North Korean General said was the plane
they feared the most. Apparently all those nose and wing guns looked
too "fearsome". Well, no shit, Dick Tracy. A weapon of war that
"looks" fearsome. Who would have thought such a thing existed?
LZ
Ed
"snip
> The Japanese visitors is interesting, I still wonder their
> true feelings toward the US about the bombs, and some of the
> personal thoughts of survivors and their familys.
>
> It would be very interesting to get some views from the
> Japanese, especially some of the older folks on what
> change the bombs made to their family and culture.
>
> I read the 'Hiroshima' 100pg book 20+ years ago and
> it was a very impacting read, this by a young
> survivor of the bomb.
When we visited the Flight Smithsonian in DC we went in to the movie about
the dropping of the bomb. There were 5 or 6 Japanese sitting on the front
bench. When the movie started, they got up and left. Guess there are still
a lot of feelings about it in their nation.
Ed
FMB
"Neon John" <johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:fbrcvv4h4o7sr5ibl...@4ax.com...
Thanks, John, for your memories and insight. It made for great lunchtime
reading.
FMB
(only one B in FMB)
Eric Cartman
....
Thanks for the insight, can't help but wonder why its not
interesting to most people, maybe scary in ways but certainly
facinating! The US military DID do some horrific things during
those above ground testing days, but they mostly knew that was
stupid, just too convenient I suppose.
How about the atomic museum in Albuquerque NM, I once was there
but did not know about the museum , I actually thought it was
in/near Las Vegas (makes as much sense to have in either place
I quess) But you would think the museum would be up in Los Alamos.
I for one would like to see Nuclear elec. generation be used to
replace coal and oil fired gens, to eliminate the
US dependencies on middle-eastern oil and all the political
ramifications!
But only if standardize well researched and tested nuclear plant
designs (for output sizes) such that each plant would NOT be a clean
sheet design but would be as safe and clean as it originally
was PR'ed back when!
It would take a huge PR compaign to convince people, and of course
getting a safe place to store all the waste ( Nevada?).
Eric Cartman
Do you know about the new Smithsonian Air mueseum out in the suburbs I
take it, they have the larger planes (Concord eventually if not now) and
SR-71, etc it is supposedly finally open, can't wait to see it!
But is any plane more 'racy/futuristic' than an XB-70 (and maybe Concord),
WOW!
I bet the sound of the XB-70 was awsome (loud!), the closest I have heard
is a B-1b/F-111 and Concord.
Tom Shaw
March, i.e. I dont give a damn what the Japanese think about the bomb.
TS
"Ed" <edg...@att.net> wrote in message
news:DFEJb.275861$Ec1.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Mark Jones
news:bt71jb$41gh2$1...@ID-192430.news.uni-berlin.de...
> It's the politically correct flunkies they put in charge of these
> displays. I had to chew out some young captain who had been in charge
> of the Korean War display at Wright-Pat. He featured an experimental
> aircraft that had flown ONCE during the Korean War era and never
> mentioned the B-26 which even a North Korean General said was the plane
> they feared the most. Apparently all those nose and wing guns looked
> too "fearsome". Well, no shit, Dick Tracy. A weapon of war that
> "looks" fearsome. Who would have thought such a thing existed?
like it is because they are afraid it might offend someone.
So what if someone is offended by the truth?
Neon John
>>Unfortunately both the Atomic Energy Museum and the Graphite Reactor have
>>been
>>effectively destroyed by relatively recent government action
>
>Ah crap... I visited there in the late 80's and it was fascinating. The guard
>shacks on the highway, etc. Pity. It had a lot of good info on the town and
>the brains who did the research.
The shells of the guard shacks are still there. You can even see 'em when the
kudzoo dies in the winter.
>
>>The Graphite Reactor is suffering an even worse fate. It's being demolished.
>
>This even more of a shame that paranoia is wiping it out. It was fascinating
>to walk around on the overhead catwalk and even just to get a sense of the
>implications of the project.
Yes indeed. I am in awe bordering on worship of the great men of physics and
chemistry that made the bomb happen. To imagine what they did as fast as they
did it without the benefit of even electronic calculators. I can't imagine.
One little minor event illustrates this. When they touched off the big one at
Trinity Site, Fermi stepped out of the bunker and when he calculated the shock
wave would arrive, dropped some scraps of paper. he measured how far sideways
the wave blew the paper. Using his slide rule and no paper, he mentally
calculated the yield of the device to better than 15%. It took several weeks
of data analysis to determine this from the instruments.
>
>>Even at
>>the Wright Patterson AF museum I found the nuclear stuff discarded and
>>neglected when I visited last year. The Fatman casing was sitting off in a
>>construction area covered with dirt. The more modern bombs (trainiing models)
>>were off in an unlit corner of a hanger. I found them only by accident.
>>Only
>>Bockscar is on prominent display. Even the BUFF on display only mentions the
>>SAC's role in a by-the-way manner. Most attention is given to the
>>mis-application of the BUFF in Viet-Nam, ignoring the nearly 50 years of
>>non-stop, around the clock nuclear patrolling by SAC.
>
>Well the Vietnam stuff is what draws teh crowds. Early on, they had a great WWI
>and WWII collection with some decent Korean stuff. IIRC, the Korean stuff was
>disappearing last time I was there (maybe 15 years ago..). Even the WWI and
>WWII stuff was being "re-packaged" into smaller areas while the space stuff was
>expanding.
Don't misunderstand, I'm very happy that Viet Nam is finally getting its due
with the proper recognition. What I'm angry about is that nuclear related
things like the BUFF's SAC role has been minimized.
BTW, you ought to visit again. They opened a new hangar last year that more
than doubles the space. A third hangar should be open by now.
>
>Did/do they still have the XB-70 and B-58 Hustler? Those are kinda' undeniably
>nuke since that was what they were designed for.
Yep, they're still there. Unfortunately, outside where the elements are
getting to them.
>
>I was raised just down the road from the AFMuseum. (It's current location).
>Fondly remember the old place in Fairborn and then the moving of all the
>aircraft to the new site.
I have a good friend who lives in Arcanum. I drop in on the museum every year
or so to see what's new. That and a day at Mendelson's makes a trip to Ohio
worth it :-)
Neon John
>When we visited the Flight Smithsonian in DC we went in to the movie about
>the dropping of the bomb. There were 5 or 6 Japanese sitting on the front
>bench. When the movie started, they got up and left. Guess there are still
>a lot of feelings about it in their nation.
>Ed
Well screw the and the horse they rode in on. I might not have been able to
resist the urge to trip 'em on the way out and dedicate the tripping to all
those from Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Corrigedor, the Philipines and other places
where the japs stooped to acting like animals.
Yeah, there are still a lot of bad feelings here too.
LewBob
Put on your calendar for 2005 or 2006: The Minuteman Missile National
Historic Site, near Badlands National Park in South Dakota, will be open to
the public. It is a complex of a Launch Control Facility, the underground
Launch Control Center there and a remote Launch Facility, which housed one
of the missiles (a dummy missile and transparent cover is in place).
Anyone interested in the Cold War era will find it fascinating. (I worked
there 1968-1971).
Lew
"Eric Cartman" <Eric...@SBC.com> wrote in message
news:BpsJb.41114$E17....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
RVnKen
>
>
>>>Unfortunately both the Atomic Energy Museum and the Graphite Reactor have
>>>been
>>>effectively destroyed by relatively recent government action
>>
>>Ah crap... I visited there in the late 80's and it was fascinating. The
>guard
>>shacks on the highway, etc. Pity. It had a lot of good info on the town
>and
>>the brains who did the research.
>
>The shells of the guard shacks are still there. You can even see 'em when
>the
>kudzoo dies in the winter.
>>
Snip>>
My question..... "Kudzoo" grows in the desert?
Trinity site is open to the public one or twice a year. There is a pylon
there to mark the event.
Retired U.S.N. in Las Vegas,NV. Back from a summer in UT,WY,ID,OR and northern
Calif.
Mark-in-OR
>>the
>>kudzoo dies in the winter.
>>>
>
>Snip>>
>
>My question..... "Kudzoo" grows in the desert?
>
> Trinity site is open to the public one or twice a year. There is a pylon
>there to mark the event.
>
>Retired U.S.N. in Las Vegas,NV. Back from a summer in UT,WY,ID,OR and
>northern
>Calif.
Not the desert.. Oak Ridge, TN.
Mark
.
Lon VanOstran
Jones" <noe...@mindspring.com> writes:
>This PC stuff really pisses me off. People are afraid to tell it
>like it is because they are afraid it might offend someone.
>So what if someone is offended by the truth?
>
Absofreakinglutely. Good on you, Mark. There is no right to _not_ be offended.
Lon
Harry Everhart
Space Shuttle
Enola Gay B-29
Blackbird SR-71
Air France Concord
Boeing 707
Jap Zero
German war planes
Two Russian Migs 15 and 23
Mustang P51
P-40 Flying Tigers
Flying wing
WWI Spad
F86
Phantom F4
Corsair Fighter
That is all I can remember off hand
Janet Wilder
<edg...@att.net> writes:
>When we visited the Flight Smithsonian in DC we went in to the movie about
>the dropping of the bomb. There were 5 or 6 Japanese sitting on the front
>bench. When the movie started, they got up and left. Guess there are still
>a lot of feelings about it in their nation.
At the Oak Ridge Energy Museum there was an elderly Japanese couple who were
not fluent with English ( I heard them trying to communicate at the visitors
center next door) who seemed to be very interested in the displays about the
bomb. I guessed it was for the same reason that I went to the Gettysburg and
the Holocost Museum.
Mark Jones
news:20040103202052...@mb-m18.aol.com...
really happened is something that everyone needs to resist
in whatever way they can. A lot of things have been done
by various nations that they are not exactly proud of and
some people would like to keep these things out of the
public eye in order to not offend someone we may be
allies with at the moment.
The best way to make sure that bad things don't happen
again is to shine a very bright light on these events and
make sure everyone knows what happened. Let the chips
fall where they may and it is too bad if some people are
offended by what is shown.
Ed
"Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:bt7ck5$k...@library2.airnews.net...
> I suppose they match my feelings when I see references to the Bataan Death
> March, i.e. I dont give a damn what the Japanese think about the bomb.
> TS
Ed
Lone Haranguer
> The attempt to rewrite history in order to gloss over what
> really happened is something that everyone needs to resist
> in whatever way they can. A lot of things have been done
> by various nations that they are not exactly proud of and
> some people would like to keep these things out of the
> public eye in order to not offend someone we may be
> allies with at the moment.
>
>
I personally know of a number of web pages that have disappeared from
the internet this year. In every case they followed my furnishing the
URL in a newsgroup to prove a point.
I wonder who has the clout to get the webmasters to remove all the stuff
they have assembled? In one case it was a little known historical
society in Minnesota that erased a lot of info from their site which
dealt with the 1862 Sioux uprising. These were personal accounts from
survivors, recorded when the events occurred.
Guess I proved my point too well.
LZ
Eric Cartman
> BTW, Eric,
>
> Put on your calendar for 2005 or 2006: The Minuteman Missile National
> Historic Site, near Badlands National Park in South Dakota, will be open to
> the public. It is a complex of a Launch Control Facility, the underground
> Launch Control Center there and a remote Launch Facility, which housed one
> of the missiles (a dummy missile and transparent cover is in place).
>
> Anyone interested in the Cold War era will find it fascinating. (I worked
> there 1968-1971).
>
> Lew
>
Something along the same lines, the Titan missile silo south of
Tucson, Az.(I assume its still open) The only one in the world,
still has its door open and blocked, can walk down with guide
to control room missile room etc. Has a musuem and exterior
diplays as well.
In case you did not know or forget.
Eric Cartman
> BTW, Eric,
>
> Put on your calendar for 2005 or 2006: The Minuteman Missile National
> Historic Site, near Badlands National Park in South Dakota, will be open to
> the public. It is a complex of a Launch Control Facility, the underground
> Launch Control Center there and a remote Launch Facility, which housed one
> of the missiles (a dummy missile and transparent cover is in place).
>
> Anyone interested in the Cold War era will find it fascinating. (I worked
> there 1968-1971).
>
> Lew
>
What did you do there Lew?
SteveB
"Eric Cartman" <Eric...@SBC.com> wrote in message
If he told you, he would probably have to kill you! ;-)
Steve
Eric Cartman
Sounds great!
Eric Cartman
Good point, you don't necessarily have to agree with something to want
to know/learn more about it. (ex. the muslim terrorst!)
Wanting to know of how the Japanese think/believe/feel/and live
differently does not mean that I think it should not have been
done, and that it should be done again in the same circumstances.
Some of us seek knowledge for just that, knwwledge and understanding
rather than 'ASSumptions'.
Eric Cartman
> On 03 Jan 2004 03:41:45 GMT, pri...@aol.comupyours (Janet Wilder)
> wrote:
>
>>In article
>><oZpJb.585600$0v4.23...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Tom J
>><tom...@dispammed.com> writes:
>>
>>>I have better places to go and see, besides, it's still radio active
>>>enough that I don't care to go there ever, just like Oak Ridge, TN
>>>
>>
>>We were in Oak Ridge this Fall. Didn't notice either of us glowing in
>>the dark, but we just went to the museum in town. Most of the area
>>around the facilities was closed due to Homelend Security. Interesting
>>place!
>>
>>J
>>The Road Princess
>>Residentially Challenged
>>Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility
>
> My aunt used to be in charge of the lab rats there (back before
> PETA?). Last time I saw her, she wasn't glowing either despite the
> long term exposure to all that "bad" stuff.
>
> Greg
The radiation levels is likely to be simply a 'BS' reason to
close down things 'deemed' to be unworthy in this PC US we live
in!
Tex Houston
"Eric Cartman" <Eric...@SBC.com> wrote in message
Their website is http://www.nasm.si.edu/museum/udvarhazy/
Tex
Lone Haranguer
I recall one of our clerks in the weather station in Germany had
volunteered to get out of his job in a missile silo. He said it was
driving him nuts.
Every morning he arose early and drove 160 miles across the prairies to
his silo. (He was stationed at Ellsworth AFB, Rapid City, SD) He
descended the silo, spent 8 hours updating the pages in various
technical orders (T.O.s) climbed out of the silo and drove 160 miles
back to base.
While many considered our assignment in Germany to be a real armpit of a
place, he thought it was paradise.
LZ
LewBob
I can tell you - and won't have to kill you (now that the Cold War is over).
I was one of those youngsters, missile launch officers we were called, who
sat under the South Dakota prairie with our fingers on the launch key.
As the Lone Haranguer pointed out, it wasn't a job suited for everyone.
Still, upon reflection, it was one of the best times in my life.
I was back there for three months in 2001 as a National Park volunteer to
help coordinate the transition of the site from Air Force to NPS. I also
drafted several historical documents that may be used as part of the
interpretive displays when the site is opened to the public.
Lew
"Eric Cartman" <Eric...@SBC.com> wrote in message
news:0yZJb.48036$E17....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Leon in Texas
> BTW, Eric,
>
> Put on your calendar for 2005 or 2006: The Minuteman Missile National
> >
> > > Eric,
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Curiously, there were several Japanese nationals at the site when I was
> > > there. They were posing for photos at the monument. It made me feel
> > > rather strange. I wish I could have conversed with them about their
> > > motives for being there and their sentiments.
> > >
> > > Three of the passengers on the shuttle bus ride that I took to the ranch
> > > house were a father and his two high-school age sons. They had driving
> > > straight through from the Carolina coast to catch the one-day event. The
> > > father was quite disappointed by the lack of educational materials at
> > > the site. He and I agree that the Air Force was missing a real
> > > opportunity. Still, he and I agreed that the visit was worthwhile.
> > >
> > > Lew
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > The Japanese visitors is interesting, I still wonder their
> > true feelings toward the US about the bombs, and some of the
> > personal thoughts of survivors and their familys.
> >
> > It would be very interesting to get some views from the
> > Japanese, especially some of the older folks on what
> > change the bombs made to their family and culture.
> >
> > I read the 'Hiroshima' 100pg book 20+ years ago and
> > it was a very impacting read, this by a young
> > survivor of the bomb.
I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago, on Armed Forces Day, at the
Arizona Memorial. About half of the visitors there were Japanese.
During the movie showing actual footage of the sneak attack, most of
the Japanese applauded when the planes came over and when an american
ship was hit. It was a strange feeling. They seemed to be happy that
they had inflicted so much damage to the American Fleet. Another day
I was on a boat for the Pearl Harbor Cruise. My wife and I were at a
table for six with a Japanese family of 4. They found another table
very quickly. We were told that a large amount of tourist dollars
come in to Hawaii from the Japanese. And we were told that the
Japanese family moving away from Americans was the normal thing for
them to do. It was interesting.
Eric Cartman
> I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago, on Armed Forces Day, at the
> Arizona Memorial. About half of the visitors there were Japanese.
> During the movie showing actual footage of the sneak attack, most of
> the Japanese applauded when the planes came over and when an american
> ship was hit. It was a strange feeling. They seemed to be happy that
> they had inflicted so much damage to the American Fleet. Another day
> I was on a boat for the Pearl Harbor Cruise. My wife and I were at a
> table for six with a Japanese family of 4. They found another table
> very quickly. We were told that a large amount of tourist dollars
> come in to Hawaii from the Japanese. And we were told that the
> Japanese family moving away from Americans was the normal thing for
> them to do. It was interesting.
>
Obviously there are 2 sides to every story, but it surprises me that
they had the insensitivity to applaud, at least on US soil, while
watching, unless we do not understand their meaning at doing it!
(like thumbs up in US means ok, it means 'up yours' in some cultures)
But like the majority of mexicans (about 58% supposedly) think S. Calif and
S. Ariz. are parts of Mexico, I had a bit of the impression when I was
there that the Japanese have, at least, a fondness if not closer
affinity to Hawaii.
As anyone there that has gone to the different islands, there are lots
of Japanese there and their culture present (temples and such).
Seems there is still some resentment at least in some of the
japanese about WWII and obviously in the US.
Harry Everhart
> I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago, on Armed Forces Day, at the
> Arizona Memorial. About half of the visitors there were Japanese.
> During the movie showing actual footage of the sneak attack, most of
> the Japanese applauded when the planes came over and when an american
> ship was hit. It was a strange feeling. They seemed to be happy that
> they had inflicted so much damage to the American Fleet. Another day
> I was on a boat for the Pearl Harbor Cruise. My wife and I were at a
> table for six with a Japanese family of 4. They found another table
> very quickly. We were told that a large amount of tourist dollars
> come in to Hawaii from the Japanese. And we were told that the
> Japanese family moving away from Americans was the normal thing for
> them to do. It was interesting.
During the last five summers my wife taught a course at the University
of Hawaii and we have lived in a condo in Waikiki. So we have lived in
Hawaii for five months off and on. Our treatment in Hawaii by both the
Hawaiiians and the Japanese has been the exact opposite of what the
poster above said. Hawaii is made up of roughly 1/3 Whites, 1/3
Hawaiian, and 1/3 Japanese. During the boom times in Japan, many people
have invested in Hawaiian property. The races get along very well in
Hawaii. I have been to the Peral Harbor Exhibit at least once each
summer for 5 years. When you go to the Museum and Memorial - a very
respectful tone of respect is set by the guides and the followed by the
tourists. We NEVER heard any cheering during the introduction movie by
anyone. The film also sets a very respectful tone. Also - Japanese
tourists are very respectful wherever we go - if you understand their
culture - they teach respect - there is not one ounce of disrespect in
anything they do. Also - my wife loves to teach in Hawaii because the
Polynesian students and Japanese students generally have an excellent
work ethic and respect for education and educators. She is amazed with
the amount of work they do on their projects and the excellent results.
Also - we were never shunned by anyone over there - Japanese or
Hawaiian. We love to talk to other tourists and locals. We find out that
when you open up to others - they love to respond in kind. If the above
happened to this traveler - he experienced something that is not the
norm. I guess it is just human nature for humans to be afraid of people
that are different. It seems that Americans have forgiven and forgotten
when it comes to white skin people from Germany and Italy - but we hold
onto "interment camp mentally" for people of color.
Harry
Lone Haranguer
>
> I was in Hawaii a couple of years ago, on Armed Forces Day, at the
> Arizona Memorial. About half of the visitors there were Japanese.
> During the movie showing actual footage of the sneak attack, most of
> the Japanese applauded when the planes came over and when an american
> ship was hit. It was a strange feeling. They seemed to be happy that
> they had inflicted so much damage to the American Fleet. Another day
> I was on a boat for the Pearl Harbor Cruise. My wife and I were at a
> table for six with a Japanese family of 4. They found another table
> very quickly. We were told that a large amount of tourist dollars
> come in to Hawaii from the Japanese. And we were told that the
> Japanese family moving away from Americans was the normal thing for
> them to do. It was interesting.
Two comments. The Japanese are some of the most racist people on earth.
Our body odor offends them.
This is according to what Japanese themselves have told me, so spare me
a PC rant.
LZ
Harry Everhart
> Two comments. The Japanese are some of the most racist people on earth.
> Our body odor offends them.
> This is according to what Japanese themselves have told me, so spare me
> a PC rant.
> LZ
told me that my body odor offends them - I do bathe daily - as a matter
of fact some of the Japanese women told me I smell very nice. I find
them to be an amazing people - interesting culture - they take care of
their elderly well - and have a very clean country with low crime rates,
so spare me the racist rant.
Lone Haranguer
>
> I have lived among Japanese people for 5 months - none of them have ever
> told me that my body odor offends them - I do bathe daily - as a matter
> of fact some of the Japanese women told me I smell very nice. I find
> them to be an amazing people - interesting culture - they take care of
> their elderly well - and have a very clean country with low crime rates,
> so spare me the racist rant.
Nothing racist about the facts. You said you lived in Hawaii among
people of Japanese ANCESTRY, not in Japan.
Live in Japan for 5 months and then come back and give us the benefit of
your KNOWLEDGE, NOT your perceptions.
LZ
RJ
> The races get along very well in Hawaii.
I believe that is superficially true.
I *know* most Japanese are deeply racist. I have heard that native
Hawaiians are, as well, but that's second hand information.
Eric Cartman
There is, not suprising I suppose, some Hawaiians that would like
to become their own country rather than be part of the US, as
if you think of it, there are definite pros and cons to be part
of the US especially for such a remote place from the mainland.
I have no clue about how H's think about Japanese.
And let's face the fact, there is someone for all of us to hate
and or envy and or be slighted by.
Tom Shaw
Italy. By the same token I have not forgotten or forgiven what was done by
the Japanese.
TS
"Harry Everhart" <ha...@everhart.com> wrote in message
news:harry-2864D7....@news.verizon.net...
Harry Everhart
> I, for one, have not forgotten nor forgiven what was done by Germany and
> Italy. By the same token I have not forgotten or forgiven what was done by
> the Japanese.
> TS
Hi Tom -
Virtually every German - Italian - Japanese that fought us almost 60
years ago is dead. I would not expect anyone that lived through that to
forget it - but even the soldiers and sailors that were involved have
found it in their hearts to forgive them. It is one of the traits that I
was taught in Sunday School - to forgive. Heck - to me - it is just
common sense not to carry that hate that long. It was a terrible thing
that was done during that war by Hitler and his kind. When traveling
through Germany a couple years ago and I stared into the crematoriums at
Dachau - I could not fathom how the people of such a beautiful and
bountiful country could do such a thing. By the way - I am third
generation German blood.
Harry
Carl A.
> I, for one, have not forgotten nor forgiven what was done by Germany and
> Italy. By the same token I have not forgotten or forgiven what was done
by
> the Japanese.
> TS
By the same token, I assume, you have not forgotten or forgiven what was
done by the United States of America in some of the more glorious moments of
the Vietnam unpleasantness. Start with the assassination of legitimate
government leaders, proceed to Mai Lai, and end up with splashing six year
old girls with napalm.
--
Carl A.
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Tex Houston
I think you exaggerate the situation. Just as we have living WWII veterans
in the United States, those countries have living veterans. Granted, we
lose a lot every single week. I will regret when I can no longer have
breakfast with my favorite one (I'm no youngster myself) but virtually every
is totally false.
Tex Houston
Tom Shaw
whine, cry, and bitch, at only the United States. You are a goddam traitor
if you are an American and a goddam anti-American piece of third world trash
otherwise.
TS
"Carl A." <cha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:btc7mc$5j73v$1...@ID-85585.news.uni-berlin.de...
Dave Thompson
> news:btc7mc$5j73v$1...@ID-85585.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> > news:btc6gf$l...@library2.airnews.net...
> > > I, for one, have not forgotten nor forgiven what was done by Germany
and
> > > Italy. By the same token I have not forgotten or forgiven what was
done
> > by
> > > the Japanese.
> > > TS
> >
> > By the same token, I assume, you have not forgotten or forgiven what was
> > done by the United States of America in some of the more glorious
moments
> of
> > the Vietnam unpleasantness. Start with the assassination of legitimate
> > government leaders, proceed to Mai Lai, and end up with splashing six
year
> > old girls with napalm.
> > --
> > Carl A.
> > Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
Your true colors are running. The naked girl was NOT, repeat NOT splashed
with napalm by any US aircraft, ground unit or personnel. It does fit your
apparent agenda of blaming the United States for every evil in the world.
Personally, I wouldn't visit your web site if it were the only URL left on
the planet.
--
Dave Thompson
United States Army, Retired
Elliot Richmond
<daveth...@askforit.net> wrote:
>Your true colors are running. The naked girl was NOT, repeat NOT splashed
>with napalm by any US aircraft, ground unit or personnel. It does fit your
>apparent agenda of blaming the United States for every evil in the world.
Kim Phuc was nine years old when her village was bombed with napalm by
the South Vietnamese Air Force. Today, she lives with her husband and
two children in Canada. Her authorized biography, The Girl in the
Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the Photograph, and the Vietnam War,
is widely available.
Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor
Carl A.
> No I haven't forgotten anything. But you, you son of a bitch, choose to
> whine, cry, and bitch, at only the United States. You are a goddam
traitor
> if you are an American and a goddam anti-American piece of third world
trash
> otherwise.
> TS
> "Carl A." <cha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:btc7mc$5j73v$1...@ID-85585.news.uni-berlin.de...
Your display of xenophobia and stupidity clearly identifies you as an oaf of
the first order. I assume it is beyond your mental capacity to read a
thread and to view a post in context.
Just for the record, my parents (unlike yours, I assume) were married.
To point out that in a war neither side is free of crimes against humanity
is neither whining, crying, bitching, or anti-American, and any mature and
rational human being will understand that -- unless you are one of those
Kool-Aid drinking fanatics that gave the Germans their Hitler, or the
Americans their David Duke.
People who indulge in your special kind of patriotism are an embarrassment
to the rest of us.
Carl A.
Carl A.
"Dave Thompson" <daveth...@askforit.net> wrote in message
news:lfjKb.101513$pY.34417@fed1read04...
>
> Your true colors are running. The naked girl was NOT, repeat NOT splashed
> with napalm by any US aircraft, ground unit or personnel. It does fit
your
> apparent agenda of blaming the United States for every evil in the world.
Really? Do you mean to say that the Pulitzer-price winning photo was a
fake? Or that the girl was playing Jenny and enjoyed running around naked?
Or that her clothes were saet on fire by her own people in order to
embarrass the United States military? Get real.
> Personally, I wouldn't visit your web site if it were the only URL left on
> the planet.
Perhaps you would be less ignorant if you did.
Carl A.
> Dave Thompson
> United States Army, Retired
with the rank of ?
Carl A.
"Elliot Richmond" <xmric...@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote in message
news:3vhjvv8jg5bl0rp0j...@4ax.com...
>
> Kim Phuc was nine years old when her village was bombed with napalm by
> the South Vietnamese Air Force. Today, she lives with her husband and
> two children in Canada. Her authorized biography, The Girl in the
> Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the Photograph, and the Vietnam War,
> is widely available.
>
> Elliot Richmond
> Freelance Science Writer and Editor
Thanks, I didn't know that. Are there a similarly exculpatory stories
available regarding Mai Lai, the fire bombing of Dresden, the gassing of the
Kurds, or the treatment of POWs at Andersonville?
I don't think that any nation can claim to never have committed a crime
against humanity, and to deny one's country's failings is a frightening
display of stupidity and ignorance of history.
No country in history, AFAIK, has not had moments where it displayed its
skills of being inhuman to humans.
--
Carl A.
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Tom Shaw
Thanatos
of the Pearl Harbor attack. Didn't anyone there have the guts to say or
do anything??
Damn...
Any man that stood there idle, and watched that happen should be
ashamed.
Ted DeLisle
Lone Haranguer
> Kim Phuc was nine years old when her village was bombed with napalm by
> the South Vietnamese Air Force. Today, she lives with her husband and
> two children in Canada. Her authorized biography, The Girl in the
> Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the Photograph, and the Vietnam War,
> is widely available.
>
> Elliot Richmond
> Freelance Science Writer and Editor
The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong who killed the educated or
influential people in every village didn't take pictures.
Pol Pot made the mistake of leaving skulls.
Otherwise those without a brain would claim those things didn't happen.
LZ
Lone Haranguer
> To point out that in a war neither side is free of crimes against humanity
> is neither whining, crying, bitching, or anti-American, and any mature and
> rational human being will understand that -- unless you are one of those
> Kool-Aid drinking fanatics that gave the Germans their Hitler, or the
> Americans their David Duke.
>
> People who indulge in your special kind of patriotism are an embarrassment
> to the rest of us.
>
Walk a mile in their shoes and you will appreciate their right to call
you anything they want.
Maybe a visit to a VA hospital will put you in their frame of mind.
LZ
Lone Haranguer
>> Really? Do you mean to say that the Pulitzer-price winning photo was a
> fake? Or that the girl was playing Jenny and enjoyed running around naked?
> Or that her clothes were saet on fire by her own people in order to
> embarrass the United States military? Get real.
>
> Perhaps you would be less ignorant if you did.
>
According to another poster, you're the one who is ignorant of the
facts. The South Vietnamese Air Force
chose their own targets.
I think you owe the U.S. military a humble apology.
LZ
>
Lone Haranguer
> Thanks, I didn't know that. Are there a similarly exculpatory stories
> available regarding Mai Lai, the fire bombing of Dresden, the gassing of the
> Kurds, or the treatment of POWs at Andersonville?
>
> I don't think that any nation can claim to never have committed a crime
> against humanity, and to deny one's country's failings is a frightening
> display of stupidity and ignorance of history.
>
> No country in history, AFAIK, has not had moments where it displayed its
> skills of being inhuman to humans.
>
I don't think it's your place to be asking for "exculpatory stories".
Instead you should be apologizing for swallowing and repeating
anti-American propaganda.
Veteran's who have seen combat in their country's service would dwell
more on the humanitarian services they have perfomed. Why are you
focused solely on the negative?
LZ
Carl A.
"Lone Haranguer" <lin...@direcway.com> wrote in message
news:btcsrf$5pp1k$1...@ID-192430.news.uni-berlin.de...
Did you see the movie "The Quiet American"?
--
Carl A.
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Carl A.
Just to refresh your memory -- reread the thread. My sole objection was to
the xenophobic and moronic attitude that what others have done to us was
terrible, while we went around spreading the milk of human kindness. You,
more than most, should remember that atrocities are part of warfare, that we
can dish it out as well as the next country, and that there are brutes and
decent people on both sides of a front line. Once the dogs of war are
unleashed, human decency pretty much falls by the wayside -- in any army, in
any country, in any theater of war.
As to the VA hospital, been there. Also visited a bunch of field hospitals
in my younger days. Oddly enough, ran across victims of fragging only in
American hospitals. I've walked more than a mile - and it opened my eyes to
what uneducated, oafish brutes are capable of doing to others, both friends
and foes.
Carl A.
> I am proud to be an embarrassment to the likes of you.
> TS
and, presumably, to your parents (should you know them) or any teacher you
might ever have been exposed to.
Have you always been this narrow minded and limited, or did you have
to work on it?
Carl A.
> Carl A. wrote:
>
> >> Really? Do you mean to say that the Pulitzer-price winning photo was a
> > fake? Or that the girl was playing Jenny and enjoyed running around
naked?
> > embarrass the United States military? Get real.
> >
> > Perhaps you would be less ignorant if you did.
> >
> According to another poster, you're the one who is ignorant of the
> facts. The South Vietnamese Air Force
> chose their own targets.
>
> I think you owe the U.S. military a humble apology.
> LZ
I most humbly apologize. Now talk to me about Mai Lai, Dresden, the gassing
of the Kurds to prove that man's inhumanity to man somehow doesn't apply to
American military and American weapons suppliers.
--
Carl A.
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
Mark-in-OR
>of the Kurds to prove that man's inhumanity to man somehow doesn't apply to
>American military and American weapons suppliers.
>--
>Carl A.
And let's not one of LZ's favorites slip by... Serbia.
Mark
.
Lon VanOstran
<cha...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Thanks, I didn't know that. Are there a similarly exculpatory stories
>available regarding Mai Lai, the fire bombing of Dresden, the gassing of the
>Kurds, or the treatment of POWs at Andersonville?
>
The death rate at Andersonville was remarkably low, all things considered. They
were clothed and fed better than the average Confederate soldier during those
same 14 months. The Confederate soldiers were fighting barefoot, and hungry,
most with muzzle loaders, while the North had Spencer repeaters. During the
Spring Hill, Franklin, and Nashville Campaign of December 1864, most of the
soldiers with Hood were walking on ice with bare bloody feet. How Hood could
have wasted so many of such men is beyond comprehension.
The death rate at Andersonville was 28%, while the average death rate in
Northern prisons was 23%. Not that great a difference when you consider the
level of poverty, and the effectiveness of the embargos the North imposed upon
the South, not to mention the various "fevers" which swept though any group of
men during the heat of summer in the South.
In those days, any time you got that many men together in small areas, lots of
them died. More men died of disease, than died in battle....on both sides
during the war. They knew nothing of germs. They just died from them.
Add all this to the fact that is wasn't the South, but Hiram Ulyses Grant (a
paper snafu at West Point changed his name to Ulyses S Grant, but not legally),
who put a stop to the exchange of prisoners and made Andersonville necessary.
Lon
Lone Haranguer
>>
>>The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong who killed the educated or
>>influential people in every village didn't take pictures.
>>
>>Pol Pot made the mistake of leaving skulls.
>>
>>Otherwise those without a brain would claim those things didn't happen.
>>LZ
>
Carl A. wrote:
>
> Did you see the movie "The Quiet American"?
Nope. Haven't been to a theater in many years. Is it relevant to the
above discussion?
LZ
Lone Haranguer
>
> I most humbly apologize. Now talk to me about Mai Lai, Dresden, the gassing
> of the Kurds to prove that man's inhumanity to man somehow doesn't apply to
> American military and American weapons suppliers.
Does pointing a finger at Americans make you feel better about Lidice,
Rotterdam, Auschwitz or Treblinka? How about Ypres? That ring a bell?
The Lusitania?
Sure you can find a few incidents in every country's past but in the
incidents you point to it wasn't our OFFICIAL government policy.
LZ
Carl A.
>
> >
> Carl A. wrote:
> >
> > Did you see the movie "The Quiet American"?
>
> Nope. Haven't been to a theater in many years. Is it relevant to the
> above discussion?
> LZ
Yes.
Can be rented. Not anti-American/antiwar per se, but a good insight into
what happens when the spooks make policy, or implement a well-meaning policy
at the expense of humanity. Worth seeing.
Carl A.
"Mark-in-OR" <mtsof...@aol.comeondown> wrote in message
news:20040105204716...@mb-m20.aol.com...
Yeah, and a Democrat presidential candidate being admired for conducting a
war to wipe out civilians from 35,000'.
I wonder whether they dropped napalm, or did they use more 'humanitarian'
means to kill the largest possible number of civilians?
Mind you, I fully support fighting with all available means - the killed
opponent couldn't care less whether you burn or gas her. But I despise the
'holier-than-thou' attitude shown here.
Max
Lone Haranguer wrote:
> Veteran's who have seen combat in their country's service would dwell
> more on the humanitarian services they have perfomed. Why are you
> focused solely on the negative?
> LZ
>
Did I read in one of your posts that you had been in Korea?
Max (1st Cav., Naktong River, Uijongbu, Kaesong, Pyongyang, Unsan, '50-'51)
Lone Haranguer
> "Lone Haranguer" <lin...@direcway.com> wrote in message
> news:btct7f$5ve8r$1...@ID-192430.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Carl A. wrote:
>>
>>>To point out that in a war neither side is free of crimes against
>
> humanity
>
>>>is neither whining, crying, bitching, or anti-American, and any mature
>
> and
>
>>>rational human being will understand that -- unless you are one of those
>>>Kool-Aid drinking fanatics that gave the Germans their Hitler, or the
>>>Americans their David Duke.
>>>
>>>People who indulge in your special kind of patriotism are an
>
> embarrassment
>
>>>to the rest of us.
>>>
>>
>>Uh, Carl. Some people have paid high dues in service of this country.
>>
>>Walk a mile in their shoes and you will appreciate their right to call
>>you anything they want.
>>
>>Maybe a visit to a VA hospital will put you in their frame of mind.
>>LZ
>
>
>
> Just to refresh your memory -- reread the thread. My sole objection was to
> the xenophobic and moronic attitude that what others have done to us was
> terrible, while we went around spreading the milk of human kindness.
You might have used a balanced approach and cited all the humanitarian
acts the U.S. (including the military) has done over the years, rather
than citing a few atrocities.
You,
> more than most, should remember that atrocities are part of warfare, that we
> can dish it out as well as the next country, and that there are brutes and
> decent people on both sides of a front line.
Actually the war I fought in was fought mostly by rules laid down by the
United Nations. Many of those rules handicapped our ability to actually
win the war but we abided by them. For that we suffered many thousands
of additional casualties. We could have nuked Pyongyang on the first
day and saved a few million people in the long term but we showed restraint.
Once the dogs of war are
> unleashed, human decency pretty much falls by the wayside -- in any army, in
> any country, in any theater of war.
>
Well, there are degrees of inhumanity and on history's scale I think the
U.S. will look pretty good compared to many. Especially when our acts
of humanity are factored in.
> As to the VA hospital, been there. Also visited a bunch of field hospitals
> in my younger days. Oddly enough, ran across victims of fragging only in
> American hospitals.
Some armies shot their officers in the back of the head, that way they
didn't end up in field hospitals and the shooter had no fear of being
assigned to a penal battalion. I'm sure you know what army I'm
referring to. Had an e-mail over the holidays from two of them.
I've walked more than a mile - and it opened my eyes to
> what uneducated, oafish brutes are capable of doing to others, both friends
> and foes.
The educated are even worse. They are the ones who design the
instruments of death like Xyclon B and mustard gas, atomic bombs and
biological warfare. They lack the excuse of being oafish brutes though.
Most were not drafted either.
LZ
Lone Haranguer
>
> And let's not one of LZ's favorites slip by... Serbia.
>
> Mark
Thanks for bringing that one up. The entire American public knew about
that one and only a few spoke out. Same with Waco.
Wonder if Carl has any postings raising a fuss about those recent
events? Most of the people who were outraged about Mai Lai favored the
Serbian bombing. Go figure. For my part, anything that reflects
adversely on the U.S. military is repugnant to me, since I wore the
uniform for 21 years. Most career military I know feel the same way.
LZ
Carl A.
Re-read the posts, Linus. I am in no way pointing a finger at American per
se. I'm pointing a finger at all the inhuman actions taken during the war.
And above all, I attack the xenophobia that makes certain people proclaim
that they'll never forget what was done to their fathers and uncles, while
conveniently forgetting that war cruelty is universal, and then attacking
those rational beings who will remind them of that.
Their personal attacks by that Kool-Aid drinking Tom Shaw were typical
examples of irrational reactions of a non-functioning brain. And I doubt
that Dave Thompson, US Army Ret., has the mental wherewithal to have risen
above the rank of potato peeler.
Patriots (and voters) like that are the foundation of mob rule. "My
country, right or wrong" went out with the Nuremberg trials.
Lone Haranguer
>
> Can be rented. Not anti-American/antiwar per se, but a good insight into
> what happens when the spooks make policy, or implement a well-meaning policy
> at the expense of humanity. Worth seeing.
Thanks. We seldom rent movies but they do have a pretty good selection
locally.
Our TV package has about 10 movie channels in addition to the 130
channels in the package and we usually find something worth watching.
LZ
Lone Haranguer
B-26 gunner in the 13th Bomb Squadron. Flew 50 missions 52-53.
Nearly all low-level night missions, only 2 daytime.
LZ
Guess Who?
conduct of the American military out of Hollywood. It's just a movie
Carl!
It also looks like he's got a grudge against the WWII GIs who took his
watch, after stomping the #2 out of Germany, 50+ years ago....
He says a retired soldier only "rose to the rank of potato peeler",
who pointed out to him, that he was talking through his ass...
(again!)
Carl, tell us all about those VA hospitals that you're so familiar
with.....
Don
Carl A.
"Guess Who?" <DonLa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13644-3FF...@storefull-3132.bay.webtv.net...
Don,
how long did it take you to climb to the top of the mountain of irrelevance
after ascending out of the valley of non-comprehension?
Lone Haranguer
> "Lone Haranguer" <lin...@direcway.com> wrote in message
> news:btd9lb$5ut7a$1...@ID-192430.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Carl A. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I most humbly apologize. Now talk to me about Mai Lai, Dresden, the
>
> gassing
>
>>>of the Kurds to prove that man's inhumanity to man somehow doesn't apply
>
> to
>
>>>American military and American weapons suppliers.
>>
>>Does pointing a finger at Americans make you feel better about Lidice,
>>Rotterdam, Auschwitz or Treblinka? How about Ypres? That ring a bell?
>> The Lusitania?
>>
>>Sure you can find a few incidents in every country's past but in the
>>incidents you point to it wasn't our OFFICIAL government policy.
>>LZ
>>
>
>
> Re-read the posts, Linus. I am in no way pointing a finger at American per
> se. I'm pointing a finger at all the inhuman actions taken during the war.
> And above all, I attack the xenophobia that makes certain people proclaim
> that they'll never forget what was done to their fathers and uncles, while
> conveniently forgetting that war cruelty is universal, and then attacking
> those rational beings who will remind them of that.
Why should I re-read the posts? I know what they say. MY point is that
if you look at the "rap sheet" some countries have a rap sheet much
longer than others. On the list of good works, name a country that can
match ours.
When the parole board hears our case, we will have good works to weigh
against our bad ones. Individuals are responsible for actions taken
during times of war as well as during times of peace. I think it would
be wise to determine who made the decisions that led to inhumane actions
rather than blame the entire country.
>
> Their personal attacks by that Kool-Aid drinking Tom Shaw were typical
> examples of irrational reactions of a non-functioning brain. And I doubt
> that Dave Thompson, US Army Ret., has the mental wherewithal to have risen
> above the rank of potato peeler.
I believe he started as an enlisted person and ended up with a
commission. I doubt you could match his accomplishments and the
services he rendered to his country. I doubt you could even come close.
I really don't know anything about Tom Shaw but you will find many
exactly like him if you ever made those remarks at a Legion or VFW club.
>
> Patriots (and voters) like that are the foundation of mob rule. "My
> country, right or wrong" went out with the Nuremberg trials.
I don't see that as their main point. You are insulting them just as if
you walked up to them and told them their mother was a prostitute. Even
if true, why would you keep throwing it in their face? Why be surprised
at the reaction?
LZ
Joe
> > No I haven't forgotten anything. But you, you son of a bitch, choose to
> > whine, cry, and bitch, at only the United States. You are a goddam
> traitor
> > if you are an American and a goddam anti-American piece of third world
> trash
> > otherwise.
> > TS
> > "Carl A." <cha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:btc7mc$5j73v$1...@ID-85585.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>
>
He called you a *son of a bitch* not a *bastard*.
Carl A.
>
> I don't see that as their main point. You are insulting them just as if
> you walked up to them and told them their mother was a prostitute. Even
> if true, why would you keep throwing it in their face? Why be surprised
> at the reaction?
> LZ
Hey, I didn't bring in Shaw's mother. But I did object to his implication
that he and I share the same mother when he wrote: "you son of a bitch." I
happen to have known my parents; can he claim similar knowledge for himself?
Since you refuse to re-read the relevant posts, let me quote them for you:
Tom Shaw wrote:
"I, for one, have not forgotten nor forgiven what was done by Germany and
Italy. By the same token I have not forgotten or forgiven what was done by
the Japanese."
Note that there is no indication of *personal* suffering, no specificity.
*All* Germans, *all* Italians, *all* Japanese are guilty. I wonder whether
Shaw was alive at the time of WW II, I wonder whether he ever was at the
receiving end of indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets, I wonder
whether he ever was target when fighter planes strafed school yards for the
fun of wiping out school children and seeing them scatter, I wonder wether
he has ever even seen the inside of a concentration camp (active OR
inactive), I wonder whether he has ever met an enemy face to face and seen
the humanity of the opponent.
My question tried to bring out the fallacies and inherent xenophobia of
globally assigning guilt while blithely ignoring that no country in any
conflict has a 100% record of obeying the rules of the Geneva Convention:
"By the same token, I assume, you have not forgotten or forgiven what was
done by the United States of America in some of the more glorious moments of
the Vietnam unpleasantness. Start with the assassination of legitimate
government leaders, proceed to Mai Lai, and end up with splashing six year
old girls with napalm."
Does a reasonable question like the above merit a responsed like:
"I haven't forgotten anything. But you, you son of a bitch, choose to
whine, cry, and bitch, at only the United States. You are a goddam traitor
if you are an American and a goddam anti-American piece of third world trash
otherwise."
Your call.
Lone Haranguer
> Note that there is no indication of *personal* suffering, no specificity.
> *All* Germans, *all* Italians, *all* Japanese are guilty. I wonder whether
> Shaw was alive at the time of WW II, I wonder whether he ever was at the
> receiving end of indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets, I wonder
> whether he ever was target when fighter planes strafed school yards for the
> he has ever even seen the inside of a concentration camp (active OR
> inactive), I wonder whether he has ever met an enemy face to face and seen
> the humanity of the opponent.
>
If his relatives or family did, it's just as personal.
> My question tried to bring out the fallacies and inherent xenophobia of
> globally assigning guilt while blithely ignoring that no country in any
> conflict has a 100% record of obeying the rules of the Geneva Convention:
>
> "By the same token, I assume, you have not forgotten or forgiven what was
> done by the United States of America in some of the more glorious moments of
> the Vietnam unpleasantness. Start with the assassination of legitimate
> government leaders, proceed to Mai Lai, and end up with splashing six year
> old girls with napalm."
>
> Does a reasonable question like the above merit a responsed like:
>
> "I haven't forgotten anything. But you, you son of a bitch, choose to
> whine, cry, and bitch, at only the United States. You are a goddam traitor
> if you are an American and a goddam anti-American piece of third world trash
> otherwise."
>
> Your call.
He said he hadn't forgotten so I thinks he makes some valid points. He
is upset that you are pointing fingers in only one direction. Why
should he feel guilty if he wasn't involved? The same way you never
mention the excesses of old Adolph but only those in which you were on
the receiving end. I think his response was normal. Aren't you
responding just because he lumped Germans, Italians and Japanese together?
LZ
Carl A.
> Carl A. wrote:
> > Note that there is no indication of *personal* suffering, no
specificity.
> > *All* Germans, *all* Italians, *all* Japanese are guilty. I wonder
whether
> > Shaw was alive at the time of WW II, I wonder whether he ever was at the
> > receiving end of indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets, I wonder
> > whether he ever was target when fighter planes strafed school yards for
the
> > fun of wiping out school children and seeing them scatter, I wonder
whether
> > he has ever even seen the inside of a concentration camp (active OR
> > inactive), I wonder whether he has ever met an enemy face to face and
seen
> > the humanity of the opponent.
To which LZ responded:
> I don't see where it's relevant whether "he" experienced WWII or not.
> If his relatives or family did, it's just as personal.
It's highly relevant. I spent two years working with victims of Hitler's
extermination programs to help survivors obtain restitution money from the
German government. I learned something that was confirmed later when
working with military personnel in therapy (mostly WW II and Vietnam vets)
namely that those who had suffered the most personally were by far more
willing to recognize that not "all" Germans or "all" Vietnamese or "all" GIs
got their rocks off by torturing the respective enemy and/or committing
crimes against humanity, and that recognizing the humanity of the enemy is
an essential step towards learning to accept that man's inhumanity to man
knows no national or racial borders. Direct victims of Hitler's regime were
by far less "anti-German" than those who got their money and lives out of
Germany before the borders were closed, or the US relatives who never were
in danger. Vietnam combat veterans and POWs (e.g. McCain) were much more
willing to "forgive" (but not "forget") than those who never set foot on
Vietnamese soil or had safe jobs back at headquarters.
Shaw's totally irrational response to my point makes me doubt that he has
ever looked an enemy in the eye.
LZ continues:
> He said he hadn't forgotten so I thinks he makes some valid points. He
> is upset that you are pointing fingers in only one direction. Why
> should he feel guilty if he wasn't involved? The same way you never
> mention the excesses of old Adolph but only those in which you were on
> the receiving end. I think his response was normal. Aren't you
> responding just because he lumped Germans, Italians and Japanese together?
You and Shaw seem to be incapable of understanding my point that it's
xenophobic and intellectually dishonest to assign "national guilt." In
civilized humanity there is no genetic predisposition to commit crimes
against humanity or the people across the border. Observe the pattern -
leaders first dehumanize the enemy and then stir up hatred. Doesn't matter
who the enemies are, except that in our world it's a bit easier if the enemy
isn't Caucasian or is said to possess WMDs. The ultimate outcome invariably
is the acceptance of crimes against humanity - if committed by the winner.
As long as you keep personalizing the debate or - like Shaw - go ad hominem,
you remove the basis for an intelligent discussion. Consequently, I'm out of
here and let you have the last word.
Lone Haranguer
snipped....
I'll only make one comment but it shoots down your theory.
A friend of mine now in a VA home for vets spent 3 1/2 years as a POW of
the Japanese. In those years he was NEVER spoken to without being
struck with a club or a rifle butt first. This was STANDARD treatment.
Your claim that some countries don't have a predisposition for
uncivilized behavior does not hold water. It all depends on how
recently it was part of their culture. Read some history.
LZ
Mark-in-OR
>events? Most of the people who were outraged about Mai Lai favored the
>Serbian bombing. Go figure. For my part, anything that reflects
>adversely on the U.S. military is repugnant to me, since I wore the
>uniform for 21 years. Most career military I know feel the same way.
>LZ
Sherman said it best: "War is hell". And then there's the basic rules of war:
1) Soldiers, sailors, and Marines die.
2) Civilians die.
3) During war, rule #1 and #2 can't be changed.
Since the "winner" in any war gets to write the history, they paint themselves
in the best light. The reality is, both sides will have their share of
atrocities..both intentional and oops. There has been and always will be
incidents such as Mai Lai, but those were not our normal policy until Serbia.
There are two exceptions though. In WWII, lots of civilians got the way on both
sides and were targeted by everyone. The Cold War assumed civilians were
targets.
The rational person understands and accepts all of this. I do.
Mark - semper fi
.
Carl A.
"Mark-in-OR" <mtsof...@aol.comeondown> wrote in message
Thank you for an intelligent post.
--
Carl A.
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
> .
RJ
Carl A.
"RJ" <re_jo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1g76219.r4oek6nnzv54N%re_jo...@hotmail.com...
Since your IQ is probably at the level of winter temperature in Florida, I
seriously doubt that you would be able to recognize the difference between
an intelligent post and a gratuitous blabber.
Spare me . . .
Max
"Lone Haranguer" <lin...@direcway.com> wrote
> > Did I read in one of your posts that you had been in Korea?
> > Max (1st Cav., Naktong River, Uijongbu, Kaesong, Pyongyang, Unsan,
'50-'51)
> B-26 gunner in the 13th Bomb Squadron. Flew 50 missions 52-53.
> Nearly all low-level night missions, only 2 daytime.
> LZ
I remember the 26s, looked somewhat like a B-25 but with single rudder,
right?
Did you see any "Yaks"? (the planes, not the animals <G >?)
Max
Lone Haranguer
> I remember the 26s, looked somewhat like a B-25 but with single rudder,
> right?
> Did you see any "Yaks"? (the planes, not the animals <G >?)
>
> Max
>
Nope. At my stage of the war we had pretty complete
control of the air and I only flew 2 day missions. The Yak was
not a night fighter as I recall. We flew so low to the ground we didn't
worry about fighters. Our altitude to our target area was 8,000 ft.
though and one night we were fired on several times by a twin engined
jet. Intelligence said it was the new IL-28, just introduced. They had
a radar system but it wasn't tied to their guns so their passes were
ineffectual. I fired some rounds, (didn't hit anything AFAIK) and it
disappeared. Our turrets were electrically driven and couldn't actually
track fast enough to follow a jet at close range. Unlike WWII gunners,
our main job was not worrying about fighters. We fired at ground
targets of opportunity and for flak and small arms suppression.
LZ
Max
"Lone Haranguer" <lin...@direcway.com> wrote :
our main job was not worrying about fighters. We fired at ground
> targets of opportunity and for flak and small arms suppression.
> LZ
Roger that, <G> appreciate the contribution.
Max
Allan Sims
I was a 44th MMS team-chief from '67 to '70. Sent a lot of time in
all the flights; but was fond of Delta flight.
I enjoyed eating breakfast at Wall Drug; and driving those 5 ton
tandem axled "Big Blues" as we called the maintenance trucks. I never
had to "RON"; but did swing in a few times for a good meal in the wee
hours of morning.
I remember one night (Well after midnight) the cook was out of food,
except for an entire cupboard full of bread. We each took an entire
loaf (And lots of butter) and each ate the entire loaf before getting
back to base.
I changed several motor generators in the various LCF's; and remember
pushing one across the 'draw bridge' at Delta 1. It dropped off on
one end; and mashed my teammate's toe. 4,000+ lbs; and his steel
capped toe, in the shoe, cut his toe off.
We flew him to Kelly AFB, in San Antonio and they sewed his toe back
on. It worked fine, a few weeks later.
All that was in Delta flight. I had similar escapades in other
flights. Just wonder if you remember any thing similar to these?
(:-))
Do you keep in touch with any other folk from those days, there?
Best Regards,
Allan Sims
Buck Sgt.
44MMS Electromechanical Team
"LewBob" <lmc...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:<lG0Kb.37293$Pg1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> Eric,
>
> I can tell you - and won't have to kill you (now that the Cold War is over).
> I was one of those youngsters, missile launch officers we were called, who
> sat under the South Dakota prairie with our fingers on the launch key.
>
> As the Lone Haranguer pointed out, it wasn't a job suited for everyone.
> Still, upon reflection, it was one of the best times in my life.
>
> I was back there for three months in 2001 as a National Park volunteer to
> help coordinate the transition of the site from Air Force to NPS. I also
> drafted several historical documents that may be used as part of the
> interpretive displays when the site is opened to the public.
>
> Lew