How to void yer warranty
Mike F
caused a failure in order to deny a warranty.
OTOH, my Class B's power dropped measurably when I switched from a NAPA Gold
air filter to a K&N, and came right back when I switched back. I assume MPG
would have done the same.
Mike F
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:nsb0805q1mc6608hq...@4ax.com...
>
> In addition to all the other reasons I advise against aftermarket
> miracle air cleaners (like L&O or nearby letters), I was advised today
> that some GM Duramax owners have become their own warranty station by
> using oil-coated filters. It seems the oil mist confuses/destroys the
> MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor, and the consequences can be messy. Don't
> take my word for this - after all, I have no degrees and couldn't
> possibly read well enough to understand anything like a TB. Got this
> from a GM mechanic who said he's been told to do NOTHING on a vehicle
> that has an aftermarket filter installed.
>
> Will Sill
>
>
Mike F
vans and now MHs, I don't recall anyone ever saying their filtration was
lacking. The only complaint I've heard (actually, I wrote them) was about
their power loss in my van.
Is this substandard filtration something new, or have I been asleep for a
decade? My Banks system has a K&N, but its primary purpose in my unit is far
bigger breathing area than OEM (the OEM filter breathed only through one
end; the new filter shape triples the nomimal filter surface area (not
counting the element convolutions, just the overall filter shape). Thus this
filter should both allow freer overall air flow and cut air speed through
the element, enhancing both filtration and engine efficiency.
Mike F
"Stan Birch" <birc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4080444b...@news.netrover.com...
> The disavantages of installing a totally inferior crap like K 'n N is
> hardly news!
>
> At best, K 'nd' N s inferior filtering qualities will destroy yer engine
> prematurely; not to mention the hundreds of $$$ it will cost to replace
> your MAF sensor on a regular basis.
>
> In all fairness, your inuendo is most depreciating of theIntelligence of
> the RVing community. I would bet that there isn't so much as a single RVer
> oout there, stoopid enough to destroy hiss enjun, MAF sensor, et al with
> somethin' as stoopid as a K 'n N thingy!!!!!
Butch Davis
about the benefits with nary a warning about any possible downside.
Sometimes it seems the older we get the more gullible we become. Imagine
the investment one pays for a new MH, or truck to include all the
manufacturers investment in R&D only to be convinced to buy a L&O(??) or a
Ranks(??) System based on advertisements and word of mouth.
Oh well, Barnum said it best.
Butch
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:nsb0805q1mc6608hq...@4ax.com...
>
> In addition to all the other reasons I advise against aftermarket
> miracle air cleaners (like L&O or nearby letters), I was advised today
> that some GM Duramax owners have become their own warranty station by
> using oil-coated filters. It seems the oil mist confuses/destroys the
> MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor, and the consequences can be messy. Don't
> take my word for this - after all, I have no degrees and couldn't
> possibly read well enough to understand anything like a TB. Got this
> from a GM mechanic who said he's been told to do NOTHING on a vehicle
> that has an aftermarket filter installed.
>
> Will Sill
>
>
Mike Simmons
"Mike F" <yeah....@dream.on.com> wrote in message
news:1080pem...@corp.supernews.com...
> In all the decades I've occasionally used K&Ns on dirt bikes and 4x4s and
> vans and now MHs, I don't recall anyone ever saying their filtration was
> lacking. The only complaint I've heard (actually, I wrote them) was about
> their power loss in my van.
>
>
>
> Is this substandard filtration something new, or have I been asleep for a
> decade? My Banks system has a K&N, but its primary purpose in my unit is
far
> bigger breathing area than OEM (the OEM filter breathed only through one
> end; the new filter shape triples the nomimal filter surface area (not
> counting the element convolutions, just the overall filter shape). Thus
this
> filter should both allow freer overall air flow and cut air speed through
> the element, enhancing both filtration and engine efficiency.
>
>
>
> Mike F
Speaking as a service manager for DaimlerChrysler, both D/C and Cummins
"specifically" recommend NOT using a K&N or similar filter on Cummins turbo
diesels because the filtration is inferior to the OEM filter. See the
Cummins website www.cummins.com for more info.
Also, IMHO the HP/torque claims for the K&N are snake oil.
Mike
Mike F
Mike F
"Butch Davis" <butc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ee_fc.11223$zj3...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
phil willen
K&N were worth the money. I suspect a lot of people replace
a dirty filter and of course it would feel better.
Chris Bryant
> I was advised today that some
> GM Duramax owners have become their own warranty station by using
> oil-coated filters. It seems the oil mist confuses/destroys the MAF (Mass
> Air Flow) sensor, and the consequences can be messy.
Dang- thanks for the heads up. I always thought the Duramax was a good
engine, but if it is so fragile that a bit of oil mist in the air intake
can give "messy results", I'll stick to another brand.
--
Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com
Mike F
Mike F
"Chris Bryant" <use...@bryantrv.com> wrote in message
news:iVagc.45746$I83.8...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Mike F
batteries and vehicles without one speck of corrosion. How 'bout that: zero
battery maintenance except a little H20 now and then and a new battery
occasionally?
Mike F
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in
> But their ad copy seems to
> have been written by congenital liars - perhaps from the same school
> as those who write ads for the Hensley hitch.
GBinNC
>In a way, it's a problem not unlike being
>able to tell the difference between Christians and fakers claiming to
>be Christians: you have to know the real thing before you can
>identify the counterfeit.
(And once again, Will can't resist the opportunity to toss in a
comment about his own brand of fundamentalist Christianity.)
Are you a Christian or a faker, Will? How can you be so sure some of
those "claiming to be Christians" aren't the real thing and you're the
fake?
Some of us here might have an opinion on that too. Are we wrong? How
do you know (not BELIEVE -- KNOW)?
GB in NC
Ron Recer
>Date: 4/17/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
>> Chris Bryant
The Duramax/Allison/ChevyRearEnd is pretty fragile. GM doesn't like to
warranty these components when you have boosted the HP over 400. Can you
imagine that, just because you boosted everything by 1/3 they frown on warranty
service. <vbg>
As long as HP is 400 or less the only problem with warranty service seems to be
that the mechanic is more interested in learning about what all has been
changed than he is in doing the actual warranty work.
Ron
Edmond, OK
Mike F
on Duramaxes, huh?
Oh, yeah . . . use the exhaust air recirc pump or whatever that is and hook
it to an oil reservoir so it injects oil into the exhaust system downstream
of the converter. An oily windshield ought to discourage even the worst
idiot without his realizing it was DELIBERATE.
Mike F
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:9im280lo719iju92r...@4ax.com...
> I see where Chris Bryant <use...@bryantrv.com> checked in.
>
> Will:
Chris Bryant
> I see where Chris Bryant <use...@bryantrv.com> checked in.
>
> Will:
>>> I was advised today that some
>>> GM Duramax owners have become their own warranty station by using
>>> oil-coated filters. It seems the oil mist confuses/destroys the MAF
>>> (Mass Air Flow) sensor, and the consequences can be messy.
>
> CB:
>>Dang- thanks for the heads up. I always thought the Duramax was a good
>>engine, but if it is so fragile that a bit of oil mist in the air intake
>>can give "messy results", I'll stick to another brand.
>
> Hard to tell if that is sarcasm or just cluelessness.
Actually sarcasm, responding to a clueless post (so they both get in there).
>
> By all accounts the Durmax is an excellent engine - but it CAN be messed
> up by nitwits who bolt on stuff without regard to the consequences. And
> BTW the oil mist is a problem not because its in the intake - but because
> it fouls the MAF. You want YOUR MAF giving bogus inputs to the computer?
> Help yourself.
I expect an engine to be designed so that a faulty reading from one sensor
will not cause catastrophic failure (which I suspect it is).
The bottom line is that if you over oil a K&N air filter, GM will not deal
with the driveability problem under warranty, but installing the filter in
no way makes the warranty void, making people "their own warranty
station". Doing so violates federal law.
So- if a person thinks that a K&N is what they want (I don't recommend
them), you simply have to follow the directions, and not over oil them.
K&N makes good filters for *some* applications, but IMHO an RV is not one
of them.
Mike F
surface area significantly?
Imagine a cylindrical filter breathing through one end (OEM). Then install a
K&N with a taper that also exposes the SIDES of the cylinder, thus
increasing the effective air flow area significantly.
Sounds good to me (and came with the Banks kit for my Triton V-10).
Mike F
"Chris Bryant" <use...@bryantrv.com> wrote >
Chris Bryant
> Wouldn't my case be an exception, in that it increases the gross air flow
> surface area significantly?
>
> Imagine a cylindrical filter breathing through one end (OEM). Then install
> a K&N with a taper that also exposes the SIDES of the cylinder, thus
> increasing the effective air flow area significantly.
>
> Sounds good to me (and came with the Banks kit for my Triton V-10).
My big problem with K&N is that I don't think they actually filter very
well. I believe that they allow too much (very small) stuff through. I
have no doubt they will flow much more air, a lot of that advantage is due
to the increased size of the element- those stupid flat elements that some
OEMs put in are truly horrid- far less area than the old fashioned round
elements. Some paper elements also have a humidity problem (the paper
swells when the humidity is high, chocking off the air flow), but they do
filter pretty well (until they get dirty).
For applications such as racing (especially off road) and things like
tanks in the Middle East, the oiled gauze works quite well- it can hold a
lot of dirt, and still flow quite well- but these applications have
engines which are rebuilt on a somewhat regular schedule.
phil willen
the factory oil bath air cleaners with paper ones.
Neon John
>Speaking as a service manager for DaimlerChrysler, both D/C and Cummins
>"specifically" recommend NOT using a K&N or similar filter on Cummins turbo
>diesels because the filtration is inferior to the OEM filter. See the
>Cummins website www.cummins.com for more info.
>
>Also, IMHO the HP/torque claims for the K&N are snake oil.
>
>Mike
Same experience here. Cost me two racing engines before the light came on.
Engines that should have lasted a season were toast after only one event on a
dirt track. Pistons, rings and valve stems just ground to bits. My mentor
suggested this simple test. Smear a very thin film of grease on the inside of
the intake tract downstream from the air filter. Run the vehicle for awhile,
then examine the grease. If dirt is getting past the filter there will be
grit trapped on the grease.
I did that and sure enough, the grease felt like valve grinding compound.
That piece of sh*t K&N wasn't doing much of anything.
K&N had been offering relatively huge contingency money and that partially
distracted me away from properly testing the product before using it in a
race. Hard lesson learned.
One must ask, if the damned thing is so good then why doesn't it appear on any
OEM product? Given the EPA mandated drivetrain emission warranties, an OEM
would do anything cost-effective to extend engine life. Actually they are.
They're using the best filter media available for dry environments - pleated
paper. For wet environments, oiled foam is the best there is, though it isn't
as good as paper. For very dusty environments (desert racing, dry dirt
tracks, etc) oiled foam over paper is the best.
Rather than wasting money on a K&N, if one wants (maybe) minimal performance
at the expense of short engine life, simply yank the paper element and leave
the air box open. That is, in effect, what you're doing when you replace an
OEM air cleaner system with a K&N. IMHO, one of the worst rip-offs
perpetrated on the gullible.
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Neon John
It's not the engine, Chris, but the MAF that is at risk. Both Ford and GM use
the same principle - a heated wire - in their MAFs, though Ford uses a voltage
signal while GM uses a variable frequency signal back to the PCM. In either
case, contact with oil over an extended period of time will ruin the hot wire
sensor. The sensor goes through a cleaning cycle fairly often (every shut
down in the case of GM) which heats the wire red hot, burning off the crud.
But deposits remain, just like when an engine burns oil. Eventually they'll
build up to the point that the wire loses sensitivity. Although the MAF can
be taken apart and carefully cleaned, most people regard the thing as broken
at that point and replace it with a new one.
It takes a pretty good bit of oil to do the deed. The MAF is designed to
survive a moderate bit of blow-by that reaches the MAF via the crankcase vent
line. The tiny bit of oil that a K&N filter retains and then sheds will not
do the deed. Especially if K&N's recommended oil (low ash) is used. Even on
highly supercharged hotrods like the Buick GN, for instance, where the blow-by
is large under boost, it takes a year or more of daily driving to kill a MAF.
There are other reasons not to use a K&N (see my other post) but this isn't
one of 'em. As usual, will swings blindly and just nicks the ball. No joy at
first, however.
Miles
Mike F wrote:
> In all the decades I've occasionally used K&Ns on dirt bikes and 4x4s and
> vans and now MHs, I don't recall anyone ever saying their filtration was
> lacking. The only complaint I've heard (actually, I wrote them) was about
> their power loss in my van.
Do a search on google groups for K&N filters. There have been scores of
discussion, mostly all negative opinions. They do indeed allow more
fine dust through than most standard factory filters. K&N's own
specifications confirmed this but last time I looked at a K&N box at a
store they removed that specification.
Chris Bryant
> I see where Neon John <johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> belched:
>
>>There are other reasons not to use a K&N (see my other post) but this
>>isn't one of 'em. As usual, will swings blindly and just nicks the
>>ball.
>> No joy at first, however.
>
> Listen, flaming idiot - Will merely correctly reported that GM issued a
> TB discouraging use of oiled filters. It was obviously a home run.
>
> Too bad that a guy who knows practically everything can't tell the
> difference between a factual report and an opinion.
>
> Will Sill
On the contrary- Will incorrectly spouted off that using a K&N filter
voids the warranty- and that GM dealers will "do NOTHING on a vehicle that
has an aftermarket filter installed."- which is pure unadulterated BS.
Heck- even the subject says that incorrect statement.
Kevin W. Miller
Will Sill wrote:
<BLAT>
>Will Sill
Get a grip, please. Your hold on reality seems to be very tenuous at best.
Kevin W. Miller
Chris Bryant
> I see where a lying sack of excrement calling itself Chris Bryant
> <use...@bryantrv.com> lied as follows:
>
>>On the contrary- Will incorrectly spouted off that using a K&N filter
>>voids the warranty- and that GM dealers will "do NOTHING on a vehicle
>>that has an aftermarket filter installed."- which is pure unadulterated
>>BS.
>
> In fact, the text of my report follows:
>
> :In addition to all the other reasons I advise against aftermarket miracle
> :air cleaners (like L&O or nearby letters), I was advised today that some
> :GM Duramax owners have become their own warranty station by using
> :oil-coated filters. It seems the oil mist confuses/destroys the MAF
> :(Mass Air Flow) sensor, and the consequences can be messy. Don't take my
> :word for this - after all, I have no degrees and couldn't possibly read
> :well enough to understand anything like a TB. Got this from a GM
> :mechanic who said he's been told to do NOTHING on a vehicle that has an
> :aftermarket filter installed.
>
> Chris is a helpful RV tech, but am Oz-clone when it comes to almost
> anything I post. The discerning reader will note phrases like: "I was
> advised today"; "Don't take my word for this" and "Got this from a GM
> mechanic who said . . .".
>
> I personally read excerpts from the TB he referred to, so I know for a
> FACT that GM does not plan to buy free parts or repairs for owners who
> cause damage by bolting on aftermarket stuff.
>
> I am fully aware of the reasonable expectation that the maker must show
> that the modification or non-standard stuff CAUSED the problem - but in
> this case there is apparently good reason for concern.
>
> BTW, I have a two-part suggestion for Chris:
>
> 1) Bone up on reading comprehension; and
>
> 2) BIOYA.
>
> DISCLAIMER:
> My advice can't be trusted. I have no college degrees and know almost
> nothing except what I've learned from almost a half century of rv'ing and
> many years doing engineering work. I've never towed a 34' TT with an
> Intrepid or Cherokee but have survived many equally stupid tricks. I
> currently own NO Banks headers, fuel magnets, deer whistles, "Smart"
> solenoids or louvered tailgates. I've never deliberately allowed a holding
> tank to freeze solid, and have no financial interest in whether
> you join RVCG, wear clothes, use the Michelin RV tire guide to justify
> overinflating your tires or hate Firestone. If you take my advice, I
> guarantee absolutely NOTHING. Got that? Will Sill
So- are you still claiming that adding a K&N filter will "void yer (sic)
warranty", and that GM techs are told to "do nothing on a vehicle that has
an aftermarket air filter installed"?
Can you get your story straight? Do you actually read the crap that you
post?
Can you understand what you said, and if you do understand it, do you
realize it is an out and out lie?
Chris Bryant
> I see where a lying sack of excrement calling itself Chris Bryant
> <use...@bryantrv.com> lied as follows:
Oh yeah- can you point out one lie in what I said? I quoted you accurately.
Chris Bryant
<<blaaaaat>>
If it stroker your ego to imagine that I post corrections simply to "bash"
you- knock yourself out. I could not care less.
But.. when you make an increasingly rare (for you) post that actually has
to do with RVs, and that post is full of wrong information, it will be
corrected.
Bottom line- GM will *not* refuse to look at a vehicle which has an
aftermarket air filter installed, the K&N filter- *if* over oiled *might*
foul the MAF sensor, which would then require cleaning, which GM would not
do under warranty. BFD- and a long way from voiding the warranty (the
fouled MAF gives a "soft" error, and gives some driveability problems).
As I stated before- there are a lot of reasons for not using the K&N, but
hysterical scare tactic misinformation about "voiding the warranty" is not
one of them, and does a dis-service to people looking for rational,
factual information.
Chris Bryant
<<blaaat>>
Dig a bit deeper, Will.
Chris Bryant
> I see where Chris Bryant <use...@bryantrv.com> let fly with more insults
> and accusations, and claims:
>
>>Bottom line- GM will *not* refuse to look at a vehicle which has an
>>aftermarket air filter installed
>
> Read what I wrote, jackass, not what you IMAGINE I wrote. I said nothing
> about GM "refusing to look". I accurately reported what I got from a
> reputable source.
OK- you wrote:
" Got this from a GM mechanic who
said he's been told to do NOTHING on a vehicle that has an aftermarket
filter installed."
That's pretty straight forward to me- read it again-
" Got this from a GM mechanic who
said he's been told to do NOTHING on a vehicle that has an aftermarket
filter installed."
>
> As a reputable source, you're right up there with duh Oz.
>
>>.. . .the K&N filter- *if* over oiled *might* foul the MAF sensor, which
>>would then require cleaning, which GM would not do under warranty.
>
> Please cite a credible source for this "information". I assume it is the
> same place you found out that modern auto brake system suck water in
> through the brake hoses - RDS.
This is a fairly well know issue- one that you apparently know nothing
about- wanting to spout vague BS when it suites you rather than finding
out actual facts before posting.
>
> John KErry could use you in the campaign to bash Bush. You seem
> incapable of understanding facts.
Hey- facts is facts, and so far you have not produced anything other than
"a guy I know told me this, blah blah blah"
Ron
>It's always been that way. In a way, it's a problem not unlike being
>able to tell the difference between Christians and fakers claiming to
>be Christians: you have to know the real thing before you can
>identify the counterfeit.
What a idiotic thing to say. Christians don't seem to know who they
are themselves.
By saying "I am one and you're not" just translates into "I am a
bigger bigot than you".
Of course, this is from Silly Willy, what should I expect.
Joe Mama
>I see where Chris Bryant <use...@bryantrv.com> let fly with more
>insults and accusations, and claims:
>
>>Bottom line- GM will *not* refuse to look at a vehicle which has an
>>aftermarket air filter installed
>
>Read what I wrote, jackass, not what you IMAGINE I wrote. I said
>nothing about GM "refusing to look". I accurately reported what I got
>from a reputable source.
>
>As a reputable source, you're right up there with duh Oz.
>
>>.. . .the K&N filter- *if* over oiled *might*
>>foul the MAF sensor, which would then require cleaning, which GM would not
>>do under warranty.
>
>Please cite a credible source for this "information". I assume it is
>the same place you found out that modern auto brake system suck water
>in through the brake hoses - RDS.
>
>John KErry could use you in the campaign to bash Bush. You seem
>incapable of understanding facts.
>
>Will Sill
Will, go take a crap. Nothing a good set of bowels won't cure.
Bush is commy anyway.