Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
N-H-P
Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
Variation.
Discussions of Vitalism, Holism, and Variation are often over analyzed
to the point of absurdity due to the scientism of academic
reductionism. The concept of Holism should be applied for proper
understanding of these ancient systems which demands integration
rather than the disintegrative force of reductionism.
Vitalism as opposed to the Mechanism of Medical Scientism
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In *all* Natural Health paradigms all healing is essentially
self-healing, a basic property of all living beings. Vitalism is an
ancient concept that can be traced back to the 'vis medicatrix
naturae' of Hippocrates (c.460-377BC), the Father of Medicine, who
wrote "the natural healing force within us is the greatest force in
getting well."
In *all* Natural Health paradigms Self-Healing is Paramount. The
in-built natural healing process is respected and recruited during
treatment, although it is not necessarily understood.
Mechanism (http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/mechanism.html) is the
"philosophical theory about the nature of organic systems, holding
that organisms are machines in the sense that they are material
systems. Mechanism seeks to explain biological processes, including
behavior, within the framework of classical physics and chemistry. The
mechanistic approach has caused great controversy and is considered by
its opponents, including vitalists (who contend that living organisms
must be explained in terms of a mysterious self-determining principle
rather than in physical or chemical terms) as inadequate and
oversimplified."
Holism as opposed to the Reductionism of Medical Scientism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In *all* Natural Health paradigms healing is a concerted effort of the
entire organism and cannot be achieved by any part in isolation from
the whole. Holism is an ancient concept that can be traced back to
Paracelsus (1439-1541) , the father of modern medicine, who insisted
on treating the whole being rather than merely the part displaying
disease. Vitalism aphorisms of Paracelsus include: "The art of healing
comes from Nature, not the physician;" and "A man could not be born
alive and healthy were there not already a Physician hidden in him."
Reductionism (http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/FLAOH/cbnhtml/glossary-R.html#reductionism)
is "the idea that nature can be understood by dissection. In other
words, knowing the lowest-level details of how things work (at, say,
the level of subatomic physics) reveals how higher-level phenomena
come about. This is a bottom-up way of looking at the universe, and is
the exact opposite of holism."
Variation as opposed to the Statistic of Medical Scientism
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Variation means human patients are exceedingly complex and highly
variable. Alternative Medicine is about patent centered treatment
which addresses a patient's individual needs as opposed to the managed
care protocol of modern medicine which treats each patient as just a
Statistic. Modern Medicine is about diagnostic and therapeutic
algorithms that are to be followed exactly in respect to a given
clinical situation under the very real threat of disciplinary action
and even litigation. Under the protection of methods of modern
medicine, if a patient dies that is only a Statistic!
Scientism (http://www.webref.org/anthropology/s/scientism.htm) is "the
belief that there is one and only one method of science and that it
alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
In Conclusion:
-----------------
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical
scientism that scientism as a parody of science is at a standstill
despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault lying in
their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. :)
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to
inform medical scientism that there is no simpler, more effective
treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure Mother
Nature provides through natural living. :)
In short, medical scientism is a scam. :)
Additional information on Science and Holism can be found at:
http://www.starcourse.org/pussycat.htm
--
John Gohde,
Patient Empowerment Advocate
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/empowerment.html
Email: N...@NaturalHealthPerspective.com
www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering De-Medicalization by
handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and
autonomy, and resisting the categorization of life's problems as
medical.
lad
> The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
> Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
> Variation.
>
1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be
much more comfortable seeing a separatist, materialist ER surgeon,
than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially
pull the plug on you after 40 or so. Following "natural impulses," we
would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in our 30's, and
probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
To overcome some of these evolutionary limitations, I've very happy to
see the development of "synthetic, industrial drugs" such as mitoQ and
spintrap compounds coming along in my lifetime.
Bil
john...@naturalhealthperspective.com says...
>
>The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to
>inform medical scientism that there is no simpler, more effective
>treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure Mother
>Nature provides through natural living. :)
The vast majority of "Natural Health" paradigms are anything but natural.
You want natural health? Do not touch anything mankind has ever modified
through selective breeding or produced through industry.
Prepare (on average, and in most parts of the world) to repeatedly bear children
from age 14 to 35, to be a great-grandparent at age 45, and to be dead before
50.
That's natural.
Natural as it is, it may actually be the way to save humanity from extinction,
though I can't judge the validity of this idea. Of course on an individual
basis, it's also slow suicide, but you should have the freedom to choose suicide
if that's your preference.
- Bil
N-H-P
> N-H-P wrote:
> > The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
> > Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
> > Variation.
> 1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be
> much more comfortable seeing a separatist, materialist ER surgeon,
> than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
Natural Health Healing Therapies and Alternative medicine are
absolutely not about medical emergencies.
They are certainly not about sewing some fool back together again,
either.
> 2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially
> pull the plug on you after 40 or so. Following "natural impulses," we
> would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in our 30's, and
> probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
You are just quibbling over semantics.
You are making a typical academic argument which is of absolutely no
value to anybody who has to live in the real world.
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time
because of a swimming pool accident. Probably his most famous pupil
is Jack LaLanne. Jack LaLanne is going stronger than ever at the age
of 88. And, at 88 Jack looks like he is only in his 50's. Both of them
are great athletes. I am sure that Jack will live to see his 100th
birthday.
> To overcome some of these evolutionary limitations, I've very happy to
> see the development of "synthetic, industrial drugs" such as mitoQ and
> spintrap compounds coming along in my lifetime.
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Ph.D and Jack LaLanne were never druggies.
There is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and
peace of mind than the cure Mother Nature provides through natural
living. :)
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
http://NaturalHealthPerspective.com/
The ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about
prevention.
Peter Moran
"scientism" is being rejected, none of the medical knowledge that has been
gained in the last two centuries, through the application of reductionist
and experimental approaches to medicine, can be applied in the answer.
That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by witch doctors
would be one acceptable answer.
99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts. The only
difference between it and real science is the lack of experimental
confirmation of the various mechanistic and therapeutic claims.
You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of
knowledge. Some would see this as humbug..
Peter Moran
Steve Harris
"N-H-P" <john...@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in
message
> Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died
before his time
> because of a swimming pool accident.
What, he drowned? Details, please.
Mark Probert
> ch...@my-deja.com (lad) wrote:
>
>
>>N-H-P wrote:
>
>
>>>The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
>>>Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
>>>Variation.
>
>
>>1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be
>>much more comfortable seeing a separatist, materialist ER surgeon,
>>than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
>
>
> Natural Health Healing Therapies and Alternative medicine are
> absolutely not about medical emergencies.
>
> They are certainly not about sewing some fool back together again,
> either.
>
>
>>2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially
>>pull the plug on you after 40 or so. Following "natural impulses," we
>>would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in our 30's, and
>>probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
>
>
> You are just quibbling over semantics.
>
> You are making a typical academic argument which is of absolutely no
> value to anybody who has to live in the real world.
>
> Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time
> because of a swimming pool accident.
Uh-oh..another overdose of a homeopathic concoction.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/14/03 8:29 PM
>The vast majority of "Natural Health" paradigms are anything but
natural.
>You want natural health? Do not touch anything mankind has ever
> modified through selective breeding or produced through industry.
This is another academic nonsensical argument over semantics. When
you can not attack the fundamentals, critics like to go for the
superficial.
Thanks for proving my points!
>Of course on an individual basis, it's also slow suicide, but you
>should have the freedom to choose suicide if that's your preference.
It is a fundament point of my personal health program that modern man
has forgotten what "Natural" is. My web site on Natural Health exists
to educate those of you interested about prevention and healthy
lifestyles.
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
time job."
-- Jack LaLanne
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is the foundation of the
biomedical model of natural health. Weighing in at 17 webpages,
Nutrition (www.Food.NaturalHealthPerspective.com/) is now with more
documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/15/03 3:37 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill?
There are many ways to put it.
When you live contrary to the requirements of Mother
Nature your body responds. When you run your body into
the ground by living an unnatural life, you should expect to
become ill. It is only "Natural."
"It matters not what your present age is or what your physical
condition is. If you obey nature's laws, you can be [physically]
born again."
--Paul C. Bragg, ND, Ph.D.
>That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by
>witch doctors would be one acceptable answer.
Dr. Bragg liked to spread his message using a Religious Born
Again style of preaching. But, I can assure you that evil
demons have absolutely nothing to do with poor health.
Illness is about living contrary to the laws of nature.
>99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts. The only
>difference between it and real science is the lack of experimental
>confirmation of the various mechanistic and therapeutic claims.
Scientism http://www.webref.org/anthropology/s/scientism.htm is
"the belief that there is one and only one method of science and
that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
Scientism says that there is *only* one way of doing it.
Scientism is clearly WRONG!
>You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of
>knowledge. Some would see this as humbug..
Medical Scientism scams people "by pretending to [have] a higher order
of knowledge." :)
Medical Scientism is humbug. :)
--
John Gohde,
N-H-P
>Date: 5/15/03 5:36 AM
>> before his time because of a swimming pool accident.
>What, he drowned? Details, please.
Details of Paul's life are stretchy on the WEB and reports of
his death vary.
But, it appears that he lived a very active athletic lifestyle
in Hawaii until his late 90's. Apparently, Paul C. Bragg died
in the ocean surf in Hawaii. I could very easily visualize
Bragg being caught in some kind of strong undertow?
Bragg's sister who is still running his health business and
runs the Bragg web site states that he died at the age of 97.
She provides two different accounts of his death, one time she
says he died in the ocean. The other account says he died in
a swimming pool accident.
What is important here, is Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived
to his late nineties. While his age might be attributed to
his genetics, his quality of life came from his lifestyle.
He definitely was *not* living in a nursing home. He was
living up a very active lifestyle in Hawaii in his late 90's.
Here, are some web sources of information on Bragg's death.
http://chetday.com/healthgurus.htm
From the accounts I've read, Paul Bragg died a robust and healthy man
in his 90's in a swimming accident in Hawaii.
http://www.towardsfreedom.com/articles/TheJesusDiet.html
Dr. Bragg was as fit as a teenager when he was killed
in a swimming accident at age 96.
http://www.geocities.com/eyelumin8/eightwo.html
Writer Paul Bragg, who influenced Jack Lalane, made it
to 96 with all his teeth and normal vision, running 5
miles a day and swimming a mile on occasion. Alas due
to an unfortunate accident Paul Bragg is no longer with
us.
http://www.veggi-green.com/
Many others have come earlier to the same or similar
diet, such as Paul Bragg who died at the age of 99
of an accident while surfing in the ocean!
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people
trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/
Steve Harris
that none of them is reliable, and that therefore the age
isn't either. They look like a collection of urban myths.
Not that making it into your 90's without being
institutionalized is all that amazing. You must have missed
the PBS special on people over 100 in America. At least one
guy was still jogging.
Sure, they cherry picked. But so do the health nuts. I can
give you a long list of prematurely dead health gurus.
"N-H-P" <john...@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in
message
news:16a9b594.03051...@posting.google.com...
Bil
john...@naturalhealthperspective.com says...
>
>>From: Bil b...@bil.bil
>>Date: 5/14/03 8:29 PM
>
>>The vast majority of "Natural Health" paradigms are anything but
>natural.
>
>>You want natural health? Do not touch anything mankind has ever
>> modified through selective breeding or produced through industry.
>
>This is another academic nonsensical argument over semantics. When
>you can not attack the fundamentals, critics like to go for the
>superficial.
>
>Thanks for proving my points!
Let's see if I get this straight, John.
Do you contend that natural products result from human intervention to
genetically or chemically alter nature's products into something nature has
never produced?
>>Of course on an individual basis, it's also slow suicide, but you
>>should have the freedom to choose suicide if that's your preference.
>
>It is a fundament point of my personal health program that modern man
>has forgotten what "Natural" is. My web site on Natural Health exists
>to educate those of you interested about prevention and healthy
>lifestyles.
"Natural" has never included manufactured chemical diet supplements, John. How
can we have "forgotten" something which it was impossible for us to know? It's
even stretching the definition of "natural" practically to the breaking point to
use it to describe more than a tiny handful of man's selectively bred plants and
animals.
That's not semantics, you moron. It's telling the truth.
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/supplements.html
>"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
>You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
>time job."
>-- Jack LaLanne
Jack LaLanne was an exercise and supplement nut (and primarily a salesman, in
fact.) He was not a consumer or promoter of natural foods or a "natural"
lifestyle.
- Bil
N-H-P
>Date: 5/15/03 5:12 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>Anybody else reading such varied accounts would conclude
>that none of them is reliable, and that therefore the age
>isn't either. They look like a collection of urban myths.
Until I have better information that indicates anything different I am
going with a drowning death at the age of 97.
Of course, I have seen plenty of pictures of him while he was alive.
Jack LaLanne was 15 years old when he was transformed by Bragg. I got
one picture of both LaLanne and Bragg shaking hands together. You can
do the math, Steve. Bragg died in good health at a ripe old age. :)
Besides, my primary interest is Jack LaLanne. The fact that both
exercised a lot and both lived to a ripe old age makes Bragg icing on
the cake.
>Not that making it into your 90's without being
>institutionalized is all that amazing. You must have missed
>the PBS special on people over 100 in America. At least one
>guy was still jogging.
The technical term I believe is "aging well." Being alive in or out
of institutionalized care don't mean much.
How does Jack put it?
"I don't care how old I live; I just want to be LIVING while I am
living!"
-- Jack LaLanne
>Sure, they cherry picked. But so do the health nuts. I can
>give you a long list of prematurely dead health gurus.
I can show you an even longer list of physicians and other assorted
science Kooks, as well as the CR nut cases starving themselves to an
early death.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/15/03 6:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>Let's see if I get this straight, John.
>Do you contend that natural products result from human
>intervention to genetically or chemically alter
>nature's products into something nature has
>never produced?
I will be very happy to remind you of the topic of my post.
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
Variation.
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical
scientism that scientism as a parody of science is at a standstill
despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault lying in
their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. :)
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to
inform medical scientism that there is no simpler, more effective
treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure Mother
Nature provides through natural living. :)
In short, medical scientism is a scam. :)
>"Natural" has never included manufactured chemical diet
>supplements, John. How can we have "forgotten" something
>which it was impossible for us to know? It's even stretching
>the definition of "natural" practically to the breaking point
>to use it to describe more than a tiny handful of man's
>selectively bred plants and animals.
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
Variation. The buzz phrase "Natural Health paradigms" comes under
many different names. Another phrase that I use is "personal health
and fitness."
"Natural Health" equates to "Personal Health and Fitness", as I have
operationally defined these terms.
>>"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
>>You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
>>time job."
>>-- Jack LaLanne
>Jack LaLanne was an exercise and supplement nut (and primarily a
>salesman, in fact.) He was not a consumer or promoter of natural
>foods or a "natural" lifestyle.
In regards to "Personal Health and Fitness," both Jack LaLanne and my
health program are largely in perfect agreement right down to his
views on milk, feeling the pain, and organic food. I have a great
collection of quotes from both Jack and Bragg. :)
In case you have not figured it out yet, Jack LaLanne has proven
himself to be correct and all the medical experts WRONG! Jack did
this by virtue of the quality of his life that he is living today.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Orac
"Peter Moran" <mor...@gil.com.au> wrote:
> If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill? Since
> "scientism" is being rejected, none of the medical knowledge that has been
> gained in the last two centuries, through the application of reductionist
> and experimental approaches to medicine, can be applied in the answer.
A bit of a problem for such claims, eh? ;-)
> That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by witch doctors
> would be one acceptable answer.
>
> 99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts.
I would have to dispute your assertion, having seen so many alternative
medicine claims based on "improving energy," "detoxifying" the body,
etc., etc., etc. Homeopathy is based on a "mechanism" that has no
scientific basis in chemistry, physics, or biology, for example. I doubt
that more than 50% of alt-med claims even mention science.
And, of course, at least 90% of alt-med that does claim to be based on
"scientific" concepts use scientific concepts that scientists long ago
abandoned as incorrect or distort present-day scientific concepts.
>The only
> difference between it and real science is the lack of experimental
> confirmation of the various mechanistic and therapeutic claims.
You forgot to mention the lack of even a DESIRE on the part of the
majority of alt-med purveyors even to submit alternative medicine to
experimental testing of the mechanistic and therapeutic claims they
make. Personally, I'm all for treating their "remedies" equally to
conventional therapies and submitting alt-med therapies to rigorous,
well-designed clinical trials. The ones that pass can then go into
general usage, and the ones that fail should be abandoned.
Of course, alt-med activists want special treatment for their remedies
and do not want to submit them to scientific study and clinical trials.
> You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of
> knowledge. Some would see this as humbug..
Count me in as one of those "some."
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
Orac
john...@naturalhealthperspective.com (N-H-P) wrote:
> Variation as opposed to the Statistic of Medical Scientism
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Variation means human patients are exceedingly complex and highly
> variable.
Yes to the former and no to the latter. Patients are variable, but not
as highly variable as you imply, as functional genomics and whole genome
expression-profiling is beginning to teach us.
>Alternative Medicine is about patent centered treatment
> which addresses a patient's individual needs as opposed to the managed
> care protocol of modern medicine which treats each patient as just a
> Statistic.
That's nice, but then how do you ever prove that any alternative
medicine therapy actually works?
Oh, that's right. You claim "every patient is different" and thereby
wash your hands of having to prove that your "remedies" actually work!
>Modern Medicine is about diagnostic and therapeutic
> algorithms that are to be followed exactly in respect to a given
> clinical situation under the very real threat of disciplinary action
> and even litigation.
This is such utter bullshit that it's laughable. Algorithms are
guidelines, and no one ever claims that they have to be "followed
exactly." The standard of care for most diseases allows rather broad
leeway to practictioners to exercise their clinical judgment.
>Under the protection of methods of modern
> medicine, if a patient dies that is only a Statistic!
Under the LACK of protection of methods of alternative medicine, if a
patient dies he is not even a statistic! No one knows how many patients
die because they pursue alternative medicine therapies, rather than
standard therapies that have proven efficacy.
When I was a resident, I took care of a man with rectal cancer once.
When the attending surgeon on the service first saw him, he had a small
cancer, amenable to resection with sphincter preservation (meaning he
wouldn't need a permanent colostomy). Instead of having the surgery,
however, he elected to waste nearly a year pursuing alt-med "cures,"
including high dose carrot juice, among others. He came back
yellowish-orange and with a near-obstructing, bulky lesion. It was so
large that it was no longer amenable to a sphincter-sparing procedure,
meaning that he would have to have an abdominal-perineal resection, a
procedure in which the entire rectum is removed, the anus sewn shut, and
a permanent colostomy constructed. Moreover, he had several positive
lymph nodes, which he probably didn't have at the time of his original
diagnosis. The positive lymph nodes meant that his prognosis was
significantly worse than it had been at the time of his diagnosis.
You think alt-med is more effective than conventional therapy? Prove it!
> Scientism (http://www.webref.org/anthropology/s/scientism.htm) is "the
> belief that there is one and only one method of science and that it
> alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
>
> In Conclusion:
> -----------------
> The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical
> scientism that scientism as a parody of science is at a standstill
> despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault lying in
> their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. :)
You have yet to demonstrate that your way is any better.
> The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to
> inform medical scientism that there is no simpler, more effective
> treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure Mother
> Nature provides through natural living. :)
Really? If Mother Nature is always so superior at curing disease than
conventional medicine, why does anyone ever get sick? Why do people who
do their best to do "natural living" still sometimes get ill?
Mother Nature doesn't cure severe bacterial infections. Antibiotics do!
Mother Nature doesn't "cure" trauma. Surgery does. Mother nature doesn't
"cure" cancer; surgery and/or radiation and/or chemotherapy do.
> In short, medical scientism is a scam. :)
Much less of a scam than the message you're pushing.
Kurt Ullman
<or...@wabcmail.com> wrote:
>Really? If Mother Nature is always so superior at curing disease than
>conventional medicine, why does anyone ever get sick? Why do people who
>do their best to do "natural living" still sometimes get ill?
The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in the days when
mother nature was the main curer of disease before modern medicine came along?
For there is surely nothing more beautiful in this
world than the sight of a lone man facing singlehandedly
a half a ton of angry pot roast!
Tom Lehrer on Bullfighting.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/15/03 11:57 PM !!!First
>You think alt-med is more effective than conventional therapy? Prove
it!
>You have yet to demonstrate that your way is any better.
alt-med is all about prevention. The whole point is about preventing
illness. Thank you for making my point. :)
In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was awarded
a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in September
2002.
Jack La Lanne's fitness formula
http://www.msnbc.com/news/807232.asp#BODY
"Father of modern fitness gives tips on living longer — and
stronger Jack LaLanne is still lifting, pumping, and still
preaching fitness and healthy living.
NBC News
Sept. 13, 2002— Long before personal trainers, before we'd even
heard of aerobics, there was Jack La Lanne. If you remember when
his first TV show hit the air, you're probably old enough to be
a grandparent — and maybe wishing you'd paid closer attention.
For more than a half-century Jack La Lanne has been telling us
to exercise and eat right, promising better and longer lives if
we did. And he's been practicing what he preached. Every few
years, correspondent Keith Morrison checks in with the father of
modern fitness around his birthday. And how old is he?"
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
time job."
-- Jack LaLanne
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people
John the Man
>From: kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman)
>Date: 5/16/03 1:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in the days when
>mother nature was the main curer of disease before modern medicine came
>along?
Because the physicians were SCAMming everybody into Bloodletting.
Mark Probert
> In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was awarded
> a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in September
> 2002.
The MSNBC article does not say that. He got a star, but the reason is
not specified. Care to document your claim?
Orac
kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote:
> In article <orac-CA0E2D.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, Orac
> <or...@wabcmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Really? If Mother Nature is always so superior at curing disease than
> >conventional medicine, why does anyone ever get sick? Why do people who
> >do their best to do "natural living" still sometimes get ill?
>
> The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in the days
> when
> mother nature was the main curer of disease before modern medicine came
> along?
Indeed. In those days, people definitely "lived naturally"--about as
natural as possible.
Orac
Mark Probert <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
Indeed. More likely he got a star because he has been a famous person
for many years because of his exercise shows and his public advocacy of
physical fitness.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/16/03 2:01 AM
>> In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was
awarded
>> a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in
September
>> 2002.
>The MSNBC article does not say that. He got a star, but the reason is
>not specified. Care to document your claim?
http://www.seeing-stars.com/Calendar/CalendarPast2.shtml
Jack LaLanne
(fitness expert & TV personality)
Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
(7000 Hollywood Blvd., near the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel.)
http://ronjones.org/CurrentComments/lalanneinterview.htm
Complete with picture at age 88. :)
Obviously, to receive a star in person at the age of 88 your have to
be alive. Unlike Saddam Hussein, Jack was kind enough to document that
this picture was taken on Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
This grand public event has documented his looks for ever on his 88th
birthday. Unlike the typical CR nut, Jack looks like a man in his
50's in prime health. The facts are undisputable.
Incidentally, Jack was born Francois Henri LaLanne on Sept. 26, 1914,
to French immigrants John and Jennie, Jack was the second of three
sons.
N-H-P
>Date: 5/16/03 3:00 AM
>> The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in
>> the days when mother nature was the main curer of disease
>> before modern medicine came along?
>Indeed. In those days, people definitely "lived naturally"--about as
>natural as possible.
Actually, the question is about the choices any person can make today.
If you want to look like Jack on your 88th birthday then ...
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
time job."
-- Jack LaLanne
For the benefit of the intellectually challenged "eat right, think
right, train right" is a buzz phrase for a well rounded lifestyle.
Tim Tyler
: I can show you an even longer list of physicians and other assorted
: science Kooks, as well as the CR nut cases starving themselves to an
: early death.
Let me guess - this will be a list of anorexia cases?
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
N-H-P
living!"
-- Jack LaLanne
There is more to this quote than what first meets the eye.
The calorie restriction people have got it all WRONG. The Medical
Scientism people have got it all WRONG. The objective is not living
to the age of 140 in some hospital bed.
QUESTION: What are the benefits of prevention and healthy lifestyles?
ANSWER: Maintaining the highest quality of life for as long as
possible.
The facts are that every living creature on planet earth will one day
die. That is an absolute certainty. The facts are that you will be
alive, until you are dead.
Everyone has two fundamental choices to make.
A death made possible by Medical Scientism which means living in Hell
and dying a long, slow, and painful death.
Or, you can choose to be LIVING while you are still living; Passing
away peacefully in your sleep.
The choice is entirely yours to make.
Mark Probert
>>From: Mark Probert markp...@lumbercartel.com
>>Date: 5/16/03 2:01 AM
>
>
>>>In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was
>
> awarded
>
>>>a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in
>
> September
>
>>>2002.
>
>
>>The MSNBC article does not say that. He got a star, but the reason is
>>not specified. Care to document your claim?
>
>
>
> http://www.seeing-stars.com/Calendar/CalendarPast2.shtml
> Jack LaLanne
> (fitness expert & TV personality)
Exactly. As a fitness expert and TV personality.
Another one who got a star:
Kermit the Frog
(from "The Muppets")
Thursday, November 14, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
(6801 Hollywood Blvd., at Highland)
IOW, your attmept to use getting the star to bolster your argument is
laughable.
And, they do give stars for that! See:
Rowan & Martin
(comedians / "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In")
Tuesday, April 2, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
(7080 Hollywood Blvd., near La Brea Ave.)
slenon
>Because the physicians were SCAMming everybody into Bloodletting.
That sounds suspiciously like an episode of excessive and duplicitous donor
center visits you documented so well in one of your "deplete iron stores"
mad minutes. I can easily provide documentation if you've forgotten that
episode. Sounds to me as if you were practicing the same thing you call a
scam by physicians practicing in the pre-scientific era. They bore little
fault as theory, knowledge, and science-based practice were still evolving.
You had no excuse, save your own desire to be an authority without education
or training.
Shall we revisit that episode for the benefit of those folks who weren't
around then?
--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP)
Confused? Listen to the music play!
Save a cow, eat a PETA member
sle...@tampabay.rr.com
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm
John the Man
>Date: 5/16/03 12:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>IOW, your attmept to use getting the star to bolster your argument is
>laughable.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Mark is jealous of Jack's STAR!
When you can not attack the fundamentals, critics attack the superfical.
Thanks for proving my points. :)
MattLB
>
> gohde:
> >Because the physicians were SCAMming everybody into Bloodletting.
>
> That sounds suspiciously like an episode of excessive and duplicitous donor
> center visits you documented so well in one of your "deplete iron stores"
> mad minutes. I can easily provide documentation if you've forgotten that
> episode. Sounds to me as if you were practicing the same thing you call a
> scam by physicians practicing in the pre-scientific era.
Either he has a selectively bad memory, or it was one of his other
personalities who over-donated his blood and this current one doesn't
even know it. Seems only fitting that he be scammed by himself.
MattLB
Steve Harris
"N-H-P" <john...@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in
message
news:16a9b594.03051...@posting.google.com...
> >From: "Steve Harris" sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com
that both
> exercised a lot and both lived to a ripe old age makes
Bragg icing on
> the cake.
You can have Jack LaLanne. The French lady Jeanne Calment
was riding her bike through the streets of Paris at age 100,
and I'll be impressed if Jack makes it that far doing
anything. Call us then.
Calmentt lived to 122 years of
age(http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm dying in 1997,
without doing anything particularly special except giving up
smoking later in her life. There's a photo of her as a fully
adult woman in 1875 at the age of 20, and lots of records,
so unlike a few of these health gurus, she's totally
authentic and fully documented.
She ate lots of chocolate and wine and the French diet
(probably good things), but did no juicing, no iron pumping,
and no more excercise than the average Parisian got (which
is more the the average urban American gets today, but it's
nothing like athletic training). No rowboat pulling with her
teeth. Genes count. LaLanne probably has reasonably good
ones. So what?
Whatever genes you have, you can shorten your life 10 or 15
years by really stupid living (smoking, gross obesity), and
you can maybe get 5 or 10 extra ones if you do some
prevention, and maybe a few more if you really work at
prevention. But it's a very steep tradeoff at the upper end
of the prevention work curve, for the average person.
Statistically so what if every hour spent juicing or jogging
or pumping iron gives you an extra hour of life, and it
really does become a full time job, as for LaLanne? I feel
sorry for the man if it is, unless he enjoys it for its own
sake (which is possible for him, but not for most people) An
extra year or two in my mind is NOT worth it, if composed of
full time training and food obscession.
SBH
MARK D....
>
> The French lady Jeanne Calment
> was riding her bike through the streets of Paris at age 100,
I once saw a splendid interview with her - in which she described the time
she met *van Gogh* (d.1890)!
> There's a photo of her as a fully adult woman in 1875 at the age of 20
Typo? I suspect you meant *1895*...
Regards,
M.
Steve Harris
Imagine having a picture of yourself at age 20 and being
able to say "boy that seems like a hundred years ago.." and
be RIGHT.
"MARK D...." <mo...@moothsignal.com> wrote in message
news:3ec561d8$1...@news1.vip.uk.com...
N-H-P
-
> You can have Jack LaLanne. The French lady Jeanne Calment
> was riding her bike through the streets of Paris at age 100,
> and I'll be impressed if Jack makes it that far doing
> anything. Call us then.
> Calmentt lived to 122 years of
> age(http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm dying in 1997,
> without doing anything particularly special except giving up
> smoking later in her life.
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to SCAM me into believing his
Medical Scientism nonsense.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that physical strength
is *not* required in the elderly for living a high quality independent
life.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that we can not do
anything about our health either now or in the future.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that health
authorities don't recommend Exercise and Good Nutrition as an Rx for
most ailments in life.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that Exercise and Good
Nutrition don't improve your quality of life *NOW*, as well as in the
distant future.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that living in a
Nursing Home and being subjected to all kinds of neglect and abuse is
*not* a living Hell.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that the death made
possible by Medical Scientism is *not* a living Hell that will result
in a long, slow, painful death.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Sorry Steve, but the benefits of Exercise and Good Nutrition improves
the quality of your life both now as well as in the future. It also
keeps Quacks like you away from my body, Steve!
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is the foundation of the
biomedical model of natural health. Weighing in at 17 webpages,
Nutrition (www.Food.NaturalHealthPerspective.com/) is now with more
documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.
Steve Harris
Somewhere in your dark subconscious you must realize that
there's a really good reason why nobody ever talks to you
unless you change your email address regularly.
And I see I've been suckered once again into a useless
argument, after reading one of those posts that gets through
my killfile filter after your address has mutated.
You and HIV have more in common than you know.
SBH
"N-H-P" <john...@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in
message
news:16a9b594.03051...@posting.google.com...
Joann Evans
>
> "I don't care how old I live; I just want to be LIVING while I am
> living!"
> -- Jack LaLanne
>
> There is more to this quote than what first meets the eye.
>
> The calorie restriction people have got it all WRONG.
Those healthy, long-lived CR mice would say otherwise, if they
could...
> The Medical
> Scientism people have got it all WRONG.
I've only heard that lable from you, so I'm not sure who they are.
> The objective is not living
> to the age of 140 in some hospital bed.
Still waiting to hear someone say that was the goal.
> QUESTION: What are the benefits of prevention and healthy lifestyles?
>
> ANSWER: Maintaining the highest quality of life for as long as
> possible.
>
> The facts are that every living creature on planet earth will one day
> die. That is an absolute certainty. The facts are that you will be
> alive, until you are dead.
Well, that was informative. Personally, I'd rather it was on an
exploding starship in 400 years, than a nursing home in 40, or getting
run down by a truck tomorrow.
> Everyone has two fundamental choices to make.
>
> A death made possible by Medical Scientism which means living in Hell
> and dying a long, slow, and painful death.
>
> Or, you can choose to be LIVING while you are still living; Passing
> away peacefully in your sleep.
At age what?
A friend did exactly that. But the cause was heart failure, in part,
I'm sure, from smoking, not 'medical scientism.' She was 49. Could've
had a lot more healthy years.
> The choice is entirely yours to make.
I'll take door number three, Monty.
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>-
>> You can have Jack LaLanne. The French lady Jeanne Calment
>> was riding her bike through the streets of Paris at age 100,
>> and I'll be impressed if Jack makes it that far doing
>> anything. Call us then.
>-
>> Calmentt lived to 122 years of
>> age(http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm dying in 1997,
>> without doing anything particularly special except giving up
>> smoking later in her life.
>
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to SCAM me into believing his
>Medical Scientism nonsense.
In what way, GOHDE?
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that physical strength
>is *not* required in the elderly for living a high quality independent
>life.
Where, GOHDE? Quotes, please.
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that we can not do
>anything about our health either now or in the future.
Where did he do this, GOHDE?
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that health
>authorities don't recommend Exercise and Good Nutrition as an Rx for
>most ailments in life.
Where did he do this, GOHDE? I didn't see it.
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that Exercise and Good
>Nutrition don't improve your quality of life *NOW*, as well as in the
>distant future.
He didn't GOHDE. Unless you can quote him.
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that living in a
>Nursing Home and being subjected to all kinds of neglect and abuse is
>*not* a living Hell.
Where did he do this GOHDE? Quotes please.
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Here we have Steve Harris, MD trying to tell me that the death made
>possible by Medical Scientism is *not* a living Hell that will result
>in a long, slow, painful death.
Do you have a vivid imagination, GOHDE? Quotes please.
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha! [GOHDE]
>Sorry Steve, but the benefits of Exercise and Good Nutrition improves
>the quality of your life both now as well as in the future.
No-one said otherwise, GOHDE. Please quote what you are referring to.
>It also
>keeps Quacks like you away from my body, Steve!
What have you got wrong with you, other than self-imposed anaemia,
apparently. And I wasn't referring to your mental state, GOHDE.
>--
>John Gohde,
> Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
It's a mystery to you, GOHDE.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
Your fundementals, GOHDE, are the getting of a "Hollywood Star"?
I won't bother.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
wrote:
>gohde:
>>Because the physicians were SCAMming everybody into Bloodletting.
>
>That sounds suspiciously like an episode of excessive and duplicitous donor
>center visits you documented so well in one of your "deplete iron stores"
>mad minutes. I can easily provide documentation if you've forgotten that
>episode. Sounds to me as if you were practicing the same thing you call a
>scam by physicians practicing in the pre-scientific era. They bore little
>fault as theory, knowledge, and science-based practice were still evolving.
>You had no excuse, save your own desire to be an authority without education
>or training.
>
>Shall we revisit that episode for the benefit of those folks who weren't
>around then?
Yes please.
GOHDE obviously craves attention, else he wouldn't make such an ass of
himself here.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>"I don't care how old I live; I just want to be LIVING while I am
>living!"
>-- Jack LaLanne
>
>There is more to this quote than what first meets the eye.
>
>The calorie restriction people have got it all WRONG. The Medical
>Scientism people have got it all WRONG. The objective is not living
>to the age of 140 in some hospital bed.
>
>QUESTION: What are the benefits of prevention and healthy lifestyles?
>
>ANSWER: Maintaining the highest quality of life for as long as
>possible.
>
>The facts are that every living creature on planet earth will one day
>die.
Not actually true, but then you wouldn't want science to teach you
anything, would you, GOHDE?
>That is an absolute certainty. The facts are that you will be
>alive, until you are dead.
>
>Everyone has two fundamental choices to make.
>
>A death made possible by Medical Scientism which means living in Hell
>and dying a long, slow, and painful death.
>
>Or, you can choose to be LIVING while you are still living; Passing
>away peacefully in your sleep.
>
>The choice is entirely yours to make.
So you can choose to have a hereditary aneurism or not?
God you are a fuckwit, GOHDE!
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>>From: Orac or...@wabcmail.com
>>Date: 5/16/03 3:00 AM
>
>>> The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in
>>> the days when mother nature was the main curer of disease
>>> before modern medicine came along?
>
>>Indeed. In those days, people definitely "lived naturally"--about as
>>natural as possible.
>
>Actually, the question is about the choices any person can make today.
>
>If you want to look like Jack on your 88th birthday then ...
Choose Jack's parents! Sheeesh!
>"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy.
>You've got to eat right, think right, train right. Fitness is a full
>time job."
>-- Jack LaLanne
Bullshit. Would you buy a used car of Jack?
>For the benefit of the intellectually challenged "eat right, think
>right, train right" is a buzz phrase for a well rounded lifestyle.
And depending on your parents, it might easily end NATURALLY in your
50s.
Moosh:)
(N-H-P) wrote:
>>From: Mark Probert markp...@lumbercartel.com
>>Date: 5/16/03 2:01 AM
>
>>> In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was
>awarded
>>> a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in
>September
>>> 2002.
>
>>The MSNBC article does not say that. He got a star, but the reason is
>>not specified. Care to document your claim?
>
>
>http://www.seeing-stars.com/Calendar/CalendarPast2.shtml
>Jack LaLanne
>(fitness expert & TV personality)
>
>Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
>(7000 Hollywood Blvd., near the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel.)
>
>
>http://ronjones.org/CurrentComments/lalanneinterview.htm
>Complete with picture at age 88. :)
>
>Obviously, to receive a star in person at the age of 88 your have to
>be alive. Unlike Saddam Hussein, Jack was kind enough to document that
>this picture was taken on Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:30 a.m.
>This grand public event has documented his looks for ever on his 88th
>birthday. Unlike the typical CR nut, Jack looks like a man in his
>50's in prime health. The facts are undisputable.
And show nothing about what you are dribbling about, GOHDE.
>Incidentally, Jack was born Francois Henri LaLanne on Sept. 26, 1914,
>to French immigrants John and Jennie, Jack was the second of three
>sons.
Tell someone who is interested, GOHDE!
Why are you trying to make a hero out of someone who lives a
reasonable old age? Plenty of folks do without Jack's showmanship.
Plenty of folks attain this without his extremes. Who says if he
didn't do his extreme practices, he would be much different?
Moosh:)
>john...@naturalhealthperspective.com (N-H-P) wrote in message news:<16a9b594.0305...@posting.google.com>...
>> The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and
>> Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and
>> Variation.
>>
>Can't argue with too much of this,
Coz you can't understant the words? Neither can I.
Sounds like bullshit laced with weasel words.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>>From: "Steve Harris" sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com
>>Date: 5/15/03 5:36 AM
>>> Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died
>>> before his time because of a swimming pool accident.
>
>>What, he drowned? Details, please.
>
>Details of Paul's life are stretchy on the WEB and reports of
>his death vary.
"Stretchy" GOHDE?
>But, it appears that he lived a very active athletic lifestyle
>in Hawaii until his late 90's. Apparently, Paul C. Bragg died
>in the ocean surf in Hawaii. I could very easily visualize
>Bragg being caught in some kind of strong undertow?
Could you really, GOHDE, how interesting, NOT!
>Bragg's sister who is still running his health business and
>runs the Bragg web site states that he died at the age of 97.
>She provides two different accounts of his death, one time she
>says he died in the ocean. The other account says he died in
>a swimming pool accident.
Mind going, perhaps? Like yours, GOHDE?
>What is important here, is Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived
>to his late nineties.
Just a small "d" on his degree? Where from, BTW?
Not a science faculty I hope, GOHDE
>While his age might be attributed to
>his genetics, his quality of life came from his lifestyle.
His lifestyle came from his lifestyle. Very good, GOHDE!
>He definitely was *not* living in a nursing home.
Like many others his age. So what?
>He was
>living up a very active lifestyle in Hawaii in his late 90's.
Till the silly old bugger drown'd hisseff!
Snip irrelevant hearssay opinions.
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>>From: "Peter Moran" mor...@gil.com.au
>>Date: 5/15/03 3:37 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill?
>
>There are many ways to put it.
>
>When you live contrary to the requirements of Mother
>Nature your body responds. When you run your body into
>the ground by living an unnatural life, you should expect to
>become ill. It is only "Natural."
Garbage. Never heard of biological variation?
The old guy of 102 who has smoked every day since he was 12 and drunk
whiskey about the same time, and he's probably able to keep up with
you.
Then there's the 60-year-old woman who has had a perfect diet never
smoked and drunk occasionally and moderately and is crippled with
osteoarthritis.
>"It matters not what your present age is or what your physical
>condition is. If you obey nature's laws, you can be [physically]
>born again."
>--Paul C. Bragg, ND, Ph.D.
I thought you didn't have any time for the scientific mind? Or do you
just go with kooks like this one?
>>That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by
>>witch doctors would be one acceptable answer.
>
>Dr. Bragg liked to spread his message using a Religious Born
>Again style of preaching. But, I can assure you that evil
>demons have absolutely nothing to do with poor health.
No, it's mostly genetic
>Illness is about living contrary to the laws of nature.
More than 40, for some. You are such a simplistic twit, GOHDE!
>>99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts. The only
>>difference between it and real science is the lack of experimental
>>confirmation of the various mechanistic and therapeutic claims.
>
>Scientism http://www.webref.org/anthropology/s/scientism.htm is
>"the belief that there is one and only one method of science and
>that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
>
>Scientism says that there is *only* one way of doing it.
Which is why scientism is bad? Hit the dictionary, GOHDE.
>Scientism is clearly WRONG!
Well, yes, being that scientism is to do with taking the scientific
method to places like sociology where it is not entirely suitable.
>>You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of
>>knowledge. Some would see this as humbug..
>
>Medical Scientism scams people "by pretending to [have] a higher order
>of knowledge." :)
>
>Medical Scientism is humbug. :)
But the science of medicine is certainly not.
N-H-P
> In short, medical scientism is a scam. :)
> Additional information on Science and Holism can be found at:
> http://www.starcourse.org/pussycat.htm
As clearly documented in my original post, I got most of my material
on Medical Scientism from a speech given to the London Medical Society
May 1999 by John M. Grange, from the Imperial College School of
Medicine in London.
Of course, I got material from many other sources too. I read through
Grange's speech several times before making my comments. It is clear
to me, however, that many of the science kooks on this THREAD do not
know how to follow a THREAD or READ. Many did not read my entire post
before making their first comment. They seem capable of reading only
one sentence at a time!!!
John M. Grange is widely published. Here are two examples from over
200 published works.
Grange JM, Zumla A.
The global emergency of tuberculosis: what is the cause?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12134771&dopt=Abstract
J R Soc Health. 2002 Jun;122(2):78-81.
PMID: 12134771
Grange JM.
Mycobacterium bovis infection in human beings.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11463226&dopt=Abstract
Tuberculosis (Edinb). 2001;81(1-2):71-7. Review.
PMID: 11463226
--
John Gohde,
lad
>
> There is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and
> peace of mind than the cure Mother Nature provides through natural
> living. :)
Wow, what a bee's nest we have here. I hardly know which comments to
start swatting at first.
My problem is simply with ANY kind of dogmatic generalizations and
semantic sloppiness.
There are on "alternative therapies." Therapies either work, or they
don't.
I do not believe humans ever lived and THRIVED in some Edenic,
perfectly natural environ. Some may have lived near a steady supply of
clean water, others got a variety of fresh vegetables. But most would
have added some modern sanitation and conveniences if they could.
Everything Man uses has been altered, polluted, efficientized or
rearranged in this world.
"Mother Nature" is a nice, but religious concept. Sure, it's better to
have fresh, clean, natural food, water and air than randomized
industrial chemicals. But, if evolution is correct, we humans could
stand for much more improvements. Since we don't want to wait around
for Mother Nature to take another million years, we need to
(wisely)use cultural evolution to smooth out the rough edges. This may
include taking "unnatural" or analog supplements produced by the
chemical industries (now, you're going to tell me Jack LaLane never
touches vitamins or supplements!).
And if they get this genome stuff down in my lifetime, I want to be
the first in line, checklist in hand. Mother Nature pulled a few
little jokes on me before I got out of the womb. It's payback time.
Enviromental pollutants are generally undesirable. BUT, there is a
rising school of thought, with convincing statistics, that shows
exposure to trace poisons (arsenic, radon)are BENEFICIAL!!! They help
stimulate celluar repair. The proponants are careful to not make it
sound too much like "Homeopathy."
Speaking of which: There were at least two impressive studies in The
Lancet that showed homeopathy has some effect over placebo for
allergic asthma (I guess these are the ones the skeptics say need
re-interpeting). The infamous french in vitro antigen(?)study (that
Randi "debunked") was reported simplified and foolproofed and
re-submitted to Nature Journal (but wound up accepted in a lesser
publication). Saying that, Homeopathy still seems, at best, an "art"
form, not a provable scientific one. I've tried dozens of commercial
homeopathic remedies for various symptoms, but found only one or two
that seem to actually affect me (for allergies, coincidentially
enough). So, I understand why hard science is potentially throwing the
baby out with the bathwater (but I still wish to retain 1/10x of the
bathwater, just in case). :-)
Mark Probert
> In article <1e1efc6b.03051...@posting.google.com>,
> lad <ch...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>>publication). Saying that, Homeopathy still seems, at best, an "art"
>>form, not a provable scientific one. I've tried dozens of commercial
>>homeopathic remedies for various symptoms, but found only one or two
>>that seem to actually affect me (for allergies, coincidentially
>>enough). So, I understand why hard science is potentially throwing the
>>baby out with the bathwater (but I still wish to retain 1/10x of the
>>bathwater, just in case). :-)
>
>
> potentiate?
The witch doctor talks to it, or chants...
Trace amounts of just about anything present in air etc. shopuld
> be pontentiated as well, right? So, how it is possible to make homeopathic
> remedies that are said to have a single constituent?
If you use distilled DHMO, then there is a single ingredient.
Isn't that almost
> impossible today, as it surely was hundreds of years ago? I'm quite sure
> homeopathic remedies are not made at Intel-quality cleanrooms.
Moosh:)
Good post, Lad.
I saw the homeopathy expose recently on our Quantum program. BBC I
think. It seemed pretty conclusive that there was nothing in it.
The theory was that water can have a "memory" of what was once
dissolved in it. One wonders why every molecule of water on Earth was
not thus, having been a hydrating molecule of most other molecules at
one time or another.
"Now, what have I got?"
Frank Spencer in Some Mothers Do Have 'em.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOHDE <"My genes do *not* influence my weight!"> GOHDE
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
<markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>Marcus E Engdahl wrote:
>> In article <1e1efc6b.03051...@posting.google.com>,
>> lad <ch...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>publication). Saying that, Homeopathy still seems, at best, an "art"
>>>form, not a provable scientific one. I've tried dozens of commercial
>>>homeopathic remedies for various symptoms, but found only one or two
>>>that seem to actually affect me (for allergies, coincidentially
>>>enough). So, I understand why hard science is potentially throwing the
>>>baby out with the bathwater (but I still wish to retain 1/10x of the
>>>bathwater, just in case). :-)
>>
>>
>> How does the homeopathic concoction in preparation 'know' which substances to
>> potentiate?
>
>The witch doctor talks to it, or chants...
>
>Trace amounts of just about anything present in air etc. shopuld
>> be pontentiated as well, right? So, how it is possible to make homeopathic
>> remedies that are said to have a single constituent?
>
>If you use distilled DHMO, then there is a single ingredient.
But homeopathic remedies have NO ingredient. Do the sums on the
dilutions. The theory is that the water retains a memory of what WAS
dissolved in it, previously.
Tim Tyler
:>> Trace amounts of just about anything present in air etc. shopuld
:>> be pontentiated as well, right? So, how it is possible to make
:>> homeopathic remedies that are said to have a single constituent?
:>
:>If you use distilled DHMO, then there is a single ingredient.
: But homeopathic remedies have NO ingredient. [...]
If you use distilled water, then there is a single ingredient.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
Ob-1
(Ingredient) is used more often than a BLEND of "Ingredients" (sic:
"Multiple balanced Compounds") You have a very NARROW understanding of
"WORDS" in general??? B-0b1
Tim Tyler wrote:
--
Worlds’ largest producer of Lin Xhi (Kombucha) Synergisms
Ob-1
"Moosh:)" wrote:
--
David Sprouse
Gohde, you're a quack.
Mark Probert
> On Mon, 19 May 2003 00:50:11 GMT, Mark Probert
> <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Marcus E Engdahl wrote:
>>
>>>In article <1e1efc6b.03051...@posting.google.com>,
>>>lad <ch...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>publication). Saying that, Homeopathy still seems, at best, an "art"
>>>>form, not a provable scientific one. I've tried dozens of commercial
>>>>homeopathic remedies for various symptoms, but found only one or two
>>>>that seem to actually affect me (for allergies, coincidentially
>>>>enough). So, I understand why hard science is potentially throwing the
>>>>baby out with the bathwater (but I still wish to retain 1/10x of the
>>>>bathwater, just in case). :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>How does the homeopathic concoction in preparation 'know' which substances to
>>>potentiate?
>>
>>The witch doctor talks to it, or chants...
>>
>>Trace amounts of just about anything present in air etc. shopuld
>>
>>>be pontentiated as well, right? So, how it is possible to make homeopathic
>>>remedies that are said to have a single constituent?
>>
>>If you use distilled DHMO, then there is a single ingredient.
>
>
> But homeopathic remedies have NO ingredient.
WRONG! Homeopathic potions contain DHMO in various concentrations.
Do the sums on the
> dilutions. The theory is that the water retains a memory of what WAS
> dissolved in it, previously.
I recently discovered the mechanism by witchdoctor the molecusles
'remember.'
After the potionj reaches it proper dilution, the Homeopath (a/k/a witch
doctor) signs it "Unforgetable" a few times. The more times he sings it,
the more powerful it is.
Just make sure your homeopath has a good voice.
Maleki
in <ba3hja$s46$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>:
> Calmentt lived to 122 years of
> age(http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm dying in 1997,
Lies. Especially from Western sources. Remember Gaylord
Hauser? He was 80 years old in 1940s when he started his
sham. 80 years old during 50s when my father began reading
his books; and 84 years old when he died in the 80s... . And
all this right there in LA in "modern" times.
Go suck your own kind. Usenet reaches a bit farther than you
can fully grip.
--
bA mA bud ammA bA mA nayAmad.
"Jalal Ale-Ahmad"
Beverly Erlebacher
Maleki <male...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote
>in <ba3hja$s46$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>:
>
>> Calmentt lived to 122 years of
>> age(http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm dying in 1997,
>
>Lies. Especially from Western sources. Remember Gaylord
>Hauser? He was 80 years old in 1940s when he started his
>sham. 80 years old during 50s when my father began reading
>his books; and 84 years old when he died in the 80s... . And
>all this right there in LA in "modern" times.
Unlike Hauser, Calment wasn't selling anything or pushing any particular
philosophy or method of longevity. Her life was well documented.
With over 6 billion people on earth, there are going to be some outliers
on the longevity curve, but as far more people now are avoiding or surviving
the risks Calment survived without our advantages (childhood diseases, risks
of childbirth, infections, etc) we will gradually see more of these outliers
in developed countries, since their genetic tendency to longevity will be
more able to express itself. There are already many more people living to
100+ than a few decades ago in developed countries.
About 10 or 15 years ago a friend did some work correlating telomere length
to age in humans, and he got a group of samples from people over 110 from
France. IIRC the oldest contributor was 118. So while Calment lived the
longest, it might be more accurate to call her the tail end of the longevity
curve, rather than an outlier.
>Go suck your own kind. Usenet reaches a bit farther than you
>can fully grip.
Look before you flame.
N-H-P
>From: b...@cs.toronto.edu (Beverly Erlebacher)
>Date: 5/26/03 1:10 PM
>With over 6 billion people on earth, there are going to be some
>outliers on the longevity curve, but as far more people now are
>avoiding or surviving the risks Calment survived without our
>advantages (childhood diseases, risks of childbirth, infections,
>etc) we will gradually see more of these outliers in developed
>countries, since their genetic tendency to longevity will be
>more able to express itself. There are already many more people
>living to 100+ than a few decades ago in developed countries.
The typical academic response to healthy living is that they start
talking about outliers. These are the people who make it into extreme
old age because of their genetics.
And of course they attribute many more people living to 100+ than a
few decades ago in developed countries entirely due to advances in
medical sciences, sanitization, and vaccinations.
This is called changing the subject.
And, Dr. Dean Edell is still making money telling people that the
benefits of a healthy lifestyle is spending the last days of your life
in some hospital bed. Of course, what Dr. Edell is yacking about is
the death offered by Medical Scientism. Yes, indeed, Medical
Scientism offers a very bleak future for everyone.
The only question worth spending time on is how YOU personally plan to
avoid dying the horrible death offered by Medical Scientism; while
improving the quality of your present life.
The only rational answer is living a healthy lifestyle.
Al Hephy
Beverly Erlebacher <b...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote in message news:2003May26.0...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu...
era some people have managed to live long lives. But in recent times, the
AVERAGE life expectancy seems to be increasing. However, much
of that in the 20th century can be attributed to water and sewage
processing plants and has nothing to do with science, medicine, diet, etc.
Al
Mark Probert
/you've got to be kidding mode on/
Water and sewage processing has absolutely nothing to do with chemcials,
science, and medicine.
/you've got to be kidding mode off/
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
>>From: b...@cs.toronto.edu (Beverly Erlebacher)
>>Date: 5/26/03 1:10 PM
>
>>With over 6 billion people on earth, there are going to be some
>>outliers on the longevity curve, but as far more people now are
>>avoiding or surviving the risks Calment survived without our
>>advantages (childhood diseases, risks of childbirth, infections,
>>etc) we will gradually see more of these outliers in developed
>>countries, since their genetic tendency to longevity will be
>>more able to express itself. There are already many more people
>>living to 100+ than a few decades ago in developed countries.
>
>
>The typical academic response to healthy living is that they start
>talking about outliers.
Huh? Do you know what an outlier is? They can occur in any
statistical examination.
>These are the people who make it into extreme
>old age because of their genetics.
Oh, these outliers. Yes, they exist.
>And of course they attribute many more people living to 100+ than a
>few decades ago in developed countries entirely due to advances in
>medical sciences, sanitization, and vaccinations.
>
>This is called changing the subject.
From what to what?
>And, Dr. Dean Edell is still making money telling people that the
>benefits of a healthy lifestyle is spending the last days of your life
>in some hospital bed. Of course, what Dr. Edell is yacking about is
>the death offered by Medical Scientism. Yes, indeed, Medical
>Scientism offers a very bleak future for everyone.
If you get a dementia in old age (genetics), how does your way give a
better end to life?
>The only question worth spending time on is how YOU personally plan to
>avoid dying the horrible death offered by Medical Scientism;
Get a time machine, and go back and choose the better parents.
>while
>improving the quality of your present life.
>
>The only rational answer is living a healthy lifestyle.
This helps probably marginally in some, but it is most certainly not a
guarantee of any outcome. Many many people who live a "healthy
lifestyle" end up in misery, while many who live what you would class
as an unhealthy lifestyle end up with a relatively pleasant end.
"What have I got?"
John the Man
>Date: 5/27/03 8:19 AM !!!First Boot!!
>Huh? Do you know what an outlier is? They can occur in any
>statistical examination
>Oh, these outliers. Yes, they exist.
>From what to what?
Only a person with POOR READING SKILL, such as yourself, replies line by line
before reading the REPLY in its entirety.
ERGO, you have a Low IQ.
ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
>>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 5/27/03 8:19 AM !!!First Boot!!
>
>>Huh? Do you know what an outlier is? They can occur in any
>>statistical examination
>
>>Oh, these outliers. Yes, they exist.
>
>>From what to what?
Fraudulent editing noted.
Unanswered questions noted, too.
>Only a person with POOR READING SKILL, such as yourself, replies line by line
>before reading the REPLY in its entirety.
It's called "style". Your idiotic complaint about outliers needed
highlighting, GOHDE. I achieved that, thankyou.
>ERGO, you have a Low IQ.
You yell your Latin pretentions why?
>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>Just thought that you might want to know. :)
You have nothing to tell, GOHDE.
John the Man
>Date: 5/27/03 9:04 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>>Just thought that you might want to know. :)
>You have nothing to tell,...
NEWSFLASH: Moosh Brain admits to being a Fraud!
Moosh Brain has no education in the Sciences.
William A. Noyes
"Maleki" <male...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:on6i2noxt7wv.1t4hu19nzs3e2$.dlg@40tude.net...
No, I don't remember Gaylord Hauser. Who was he?
He wasn't a biochemist, chemist, physicist, or even
an engineer or geologist was he?
As to Calmentt, I can believe a person could live to
that age if their habits were moderate. I have four
relatives (that I've met) that reached and passed
the century mark. And numerous of my relatives have
lived passed ninety. Had they taken care of
themselves, I bet they would
have lived longer.
Question. How far is the Usenet reaching with you?
I doubt you are middle eastern.
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
>>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 5/27/03 9:04 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>
>>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>
>>>Just thought that you might want to know. :)
>
>>You have nothing to tell,...
>
>NEWSFLASH: Moosh Brain admits to being a Fraud!
You can't have it both ways.
Either I haven't claimed to be educated,
or I have and am now a fraud.
Geez you're dumb, GOHDE!
>Moosh Brain has no education in the Sciences.
Inability to understand English, noted.
Geez you're dumb, GOHDE!
John the Man
>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>Date: 5/29/03 1:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>>>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>>>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
> I have and am now a fraud.
Confirmation of you being an Academic Fraud, accepted!
Geez you're dumb, Moosh Brain!
Tim
describing how a radio works by saying there's a bunch of little
people inside singing and talking, no need to actually see what's
inside or try to understand it. Science of course is advancing at an
ever accelerating rate. NHP oddly cites and subsequently misinterprets
scientific material then denounces science. Of course there is no need
for medical science when one simply has to appease the evil spirits
that make you ill. If I recall Gaylord Hauser was a second rate
copyist.
Tim
N-H-P
>Date: 5/30/03 6:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>Looks like Vitalism is pretty much at a standstill. It's sort of like
>describing how a radio works by saying there's a bunch of little
>people inside singing and talking, no need to actually see what's
>inside or try to understand it. Science of course is advancing at an
>ever accelerating rate.
Of course, I was also referring to Medical Scientism as a SCAM.
For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease) can't be
cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run its course naturally over
about 2 to 4 weeks. There are 1,000's of health conditions that can
be cured by Mother Nature alone. That is called Vitalism.
It is about time that academic idiot/snobs figured out the meanings of
words in the English language.
--
John Gohde,
Patient Empowerment Advocate
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/empowerment.html
Email: N...@NaturalHealthPerspective.com
www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering De-Medicalization by
handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and
autonomy, and resisting the categorization of life's problems as
medical.
Al Hephy
N-H-P <john...@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in message news:16a9b594.03053...@posting.google.com...
> >Subject: Re: Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
> >From: timo...@my-deja.com (Tim)
> >Date: 5/30/03 6:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>
> >Looks like Vitalism is pretty much at a standstill. It's sort of like
> >describing how a radio works by saying there's a bunch of little
> >people inside singing and talking, no need to actually see what's
> >inside or try to understand it. Science of course is advancing at an
> >ever accelerating rate.
>
> Of course, I was also referring to Medical Scientism as a SCAM.
>
> For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease) can't be
> cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run its course naturally over
> about 2 to 4 weeks. There are 1,000's of health conditions that can
> be cured by Mother Nature alone. That is called Vitalism.
>
> It is about time that academic idiot/snobs figured out the meanings of
> words in the English language.
> --
> John Gohde,
John,
It pains me to be supporting you in this, but I vaguely recall an article
done sometime in the '80s which postulated that more than 90% of
the ailments that sent people to their doctors would have cleared up
without any treatment at all and of the remaining 10%, most could not
be 'cured' by the doctor. His role was only to prescribe medication
which relieved symptoms so that nature could proceed with the cure.
This leaves only a tiny percent where medical intervention actually
aided the patient with a cure. Most of these due to antibiotics which
are now becoming less and less effective.
The 'treat the symptoms' approach is still Big Medicine's primary function.
Al
Rich Shewmaker
--
"Al Hephy" <ahe...@freewweb.invalid> wrote in message
news:1054326766.617099@savina...
Al
So, what's wrong with treating the symptoms? In diabetes, for example, the
symptoms are renal failure, blindness, and loss of feet. Though we cannot
yet cure diabetes, we can prevent, or at worst, delay these symptoms.
Arthritis can't be cured, but treating the symptoms can certainly improve
the patient's quality of life. We can't cure AIDS, but patients with that
diagnosis are now living for many useful years. You say "treat the symptoms"
like that's some kind of failure.
Oh, and many cancers can be cured. Heart attack can be reversed (cured) if
treated early enough. The new understanding of genetics and the decoding of
the human genome promises cures of many diseases of genetic origin.
Anti-virals are now being added to our arsenal of antibiotics.
Besides symptomatic treatment, and cures, medicine offers much in the way of
disease prevention through vaccination and epidemiology.
So back off. Doctors do much more that pass out palliatives.
--Rich
N-H-P
>Date: 5/30/03 9:51 PM
------------------------------------
>"Al Hephy" <ahe...@freewweb.invalid> wrote in message
>news:1054326766.617099@savina...
>> Of course, I was also referring to Medical Scientism as
>> a SCAM.
>> For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease
>> ) can't be cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run
>> its course naturally over about 2 to 4 weeks. There are
>> 1,000's of health conditions that can be cured by Mother
>> Nature alone. That is called Vitalism.
------------------------------------
>It pains me to be supporting you in this, but I vaguely
>recall an article done sometime in the '80s which postulated
>that more than 90% of the ailments that sent people to their
>doctors would have cleared up without any treatment at all
>and of the remaining 10%, most could not be 'cured' by the
>doctor. His role was only to prescribe medication
>which relieved symptoms so that nature could proceed with
>the cure.
>So, what's wrong with treating the symptoms?
------------------------------------
Vitalism and the Wisdom of the Body
http://www.holistichealthtopics.com/HMG/Darwin.html#Vitalism%20and%20the%20Wisdom%20of%20the%20Body
"Alternative medicine has long had a reputation for the "gentleness"
and harmlessness of its treatments (see Orthodox medicine). The reason
for this reputation is that alternative medicine possesses a
fundamental respect for the body and its various defensive and
restorative processes which is absent from orthodox medicine (see
Orthodox Medicine). This respect ensures that alternative
practitioners strive to work with the natural healing mechanisms of
the body, always seeking to strengthen and support such processes.
Conversely, because of the outstanding sense of conscience and
sensitivity that this respect produces, alternative practitioners
naturally tend to avoid harmful treatments or treatments which
interfere with natural restorative processes. This strengthening
constructive approach is the very essence of alternative medicine (see
Orthodox Medicine).
Reductionist orthodox medicine on the other hand has traditionally
been opposed to any respectful constructive approach to health care,
According to modern science the body's own restorative and defensive
processes exist merely to be suppressed and overridden by the "wisdom
of the doctor." This lack of respect for the body has permitted
doctors to employ exceedingly dangerous and toxic treatments in their
efforts to conceal symptoms and prevent normal restorative processes
(see Orthodox Medicine). In such a system of "health care" there is no
formal recognition of any central healing force or vital energy as the
patient is seen as powerless and is required to surrender all healing
efforts to the doctor. Although doctors may acknowledge that certain
healing functions must be performed by the patient, such as the
knitting of broken bones, these repair processes are explained simply
as an independent local phenomena involving for instance, the
formation of new bone cells. Reductionist science has always been most
vehement in its denial of the existence of any holistic healing force.
This traditional disagreement between orthodox medicine and
alternative medicine clearly goes to the very fundamental roots of
both forms of health care."
Symptom Suppression - the science of concealing illness
http://www.holistichealthtopics.com/HMG/orthodox.html#Symptom%20Suppression%20-%20The%20Science%20of%20Concealing%20Illness
"The ultimate aim of orthodox medicine then, is not to achieve a
condition of optimum health, but rather to suppress or remove the
symptoms of recognisable diseases with little or no consideration of
the underlying cause (1, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, ). In fact, the
structure of medicine is such that it is biased against the discovery
of disease causation ( 16a ). The fact that alternative medicine
strives for much higher goals, namely the elimination of causes and
the attainment of optimum health, than does orthodox medicine, has
probably resulted in the low level of expectation of medical
treatments, doctors often warning that any suggestion of the
possibility of curative treatments could only be quackery ( 12 ).
Preoccupation with symptomatic treatment of chronic illness is a sign
of medical mediocrity and the abandonment of curative ideals."
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
http://NaturalHealthPerspective.com/
The ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about
prevention.
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Moosh Brain admits to being a Fraud!
>>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 5/29/03 1:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>>>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>
>>>>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>
>> I have and am now a fraud.
Which is a fraudulent misquote by GOHDE, of my sentence "Either I
haven't claimed to be educated, or I have and am now a fraud."
>Confirmation of you being an Academic Fraud, accepted!
Which is the standard of confirmation that you use for your health
advice, GOHDE.
>Geez you're dumb, Moosh Brain!
Now why doesn't this strike me rigid with irony? :)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] (N-H-P) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
>>From: timo...@my-deja.com (Tim)
>>Date: 5/30/03 6:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>Looks like Vitalism is pretty much at a standstill. It's sort of like
>>describing how a radio works by saying there's a bunch of little
>>people inside singing and talking, no need to actually see what's
>>inside or try to understand it. Science of course is advancing at an
>>ever accelerating rate.
>
>Of course, I was also referring to Medical Scientism as a SCAM.
>
>For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease) can't be
>cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run its course naturally over
>about 2 to 4 weeks.
So it can be cured by no-one.
>There are 1,000's of health conditions that can
>be cured by Mother Nature alone.
You realise that "Mother Nature" is a reification?
>That is called Vitalism.
No it isn't!
Vitalism "ascribes the functions of a living organism to a vital
principle distinct from chemical and other forces."
This "vital principle" has NEVER been demonstrated.
>It is about time that academic idiot/snobs figured out the meanings of
>words in the English language.
And you've checked this in the dictionary, GOHDE?
John the Man
>Date: 6/2/03 6:37 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>>For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease) can't be
>>cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run its course naturally over
>>about 2 to 4 weeks.
>>There are 1,000's of health conditions that can
>>be cured by Mother Nature alone.
>>That is called Vitalism.
>No it isn't!
That is called Vitalism
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
John the Man
>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>>>>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>>
>>>>>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>>
>>> I have and am now a fraud.
>Which is a fraudulent misquote by GOHDE, of my sentence "Either I
>haven't claimed to be educated, or I have and am now a fraud."
Either you wrote the above or you did not!
And, the evidence clearly shows that is a direct quote of yours. :)
William A. Noyes
"Moosh:)" <wo...@wooo.wooo> wrote in message
news:2alldv0pketntti4a...@4ax.com...
Since when did MooShe ever claim to be educated in any science?
...........even computer science like you Gohde? That is what
you claim to educated in......right? What did that amount to....
one class in GWBasic??
Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance which is rather
like what you do these days. Gohde, you have been in the past
been a poster who had at least some occasional science content
.......what happened got lazy?? Now all you ever are is rude or
so it seems to me. You sound like the punk kid on the Simpsons
cartoon show that goes....Ha! Ha! ....every so often.
Gohde is still blocked...........................Noyes
Tim
> words in the English language.
Are you now defining yourself as an academic idiot/snob? You don't
seem to know the definitions of the words you are using or are your
definitions just what you choose them to mean irregardless of the
accepted version (e.g. say when you say dog are you really referring
to what the rest of us call a cat?). Sure a lot of illnesses are
incurable or will simply go away with time if left untreated or they
will permanently impair or kill you if not treated. Sure allopathic
medicine is still somewhat brutal, the point is that knowledge and
technology in the treatment and prevention of disease is improving.
Perhaps we will never have the upper hand totally against some
microbes but should be able to find effective treatments in a more
rapid manner. The choice to maintain your health is up to you if you
choose not to and follow your own advice that of course is up to you
though your health is very much been safe-guarded by the science you
denigrate and the scientists you unrelentlessly and foolishly
chastise. You owe much to science even if you are unable to grasp it
meaning or understand the logic or method of it.
Tim
Moosh:)
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Medical Scientism is at a Standstill
>>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 6/2/03 6:37 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>>For example, Mononucleosis (Mono or the Kissing Disease) can't be
>>>cured by Medical Scientism and needs to run its course naturally over
>>>about 2 to 4 weeks.
>
>>>There are 1,000's of health conditions that can
>>>be cured by Mother Nature alone.
>
>>>That is called Vitalism.
>
>>No it isn't!
>
>That is called Vitalism
And you believe Mother Nature cures these? And not the laws of physics
and chemistry?
What is this vital principle you believe in?
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Moosh Brain admits to being a Fraud!
>>From: "Moosh:)" wo...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 6/2/03 4:51 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>>>>>>ERGO, you are not educated. Moosh Brain is a Fraud!
>>>
>>>>>>That of course assumes that I have ever claimed I was educated.
>>>
>>>> I have and am now a fraud.
>
>>Which is a fraudulent misquote by GOHDE, of my sentence "Either I
>>haven't claimed to be educated, or I have and am now a fraud."
>
>Either you wrote the above or you did not!
I did not.
>And, the evidence clearly shows that is a direct quote of yours. :)
No it isn't. Care to cite the message ID, GOHDE?
>>>Geez you're dumb, Moosh Brain!
>
>>Now why doesn't this strike me rigid with irony? :)
>
>Geez you're dumb, Moosh Brain!
It gets even better? GOHDE?
Moosh:)
<no.ad...@ctc.net> wrote:
>Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance
You mean I don't trawl PubMed and regurgitate an abstract or two?
That's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
amongst them.
From the posts of yours I've read, you seem to be on the GOHDE end of
the spectrum -- pointless insult.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
Virtually all his silly repetitive website is the product of the
science he berates. Lets face it, GOHDE is an irrational idiot.
John the Man
>Date: 6/3/03 7:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:09:12 -0700, "William A. Noyes"
><no.ad...@ctc.net> wrote:
>>Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance
>You mean I don't trawl PubMed and regurgitate an abstract or two?
>That's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
>few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
>amongst them.
Here we see the Science Geeks unable to get along with other Science Geeks.
Obviously Moosh Brain doesn't believe in Geek Empowerment, let alone Patient
Empowerment.
Moosh:)
[GOHDE] wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Moosh Brain admits to being a Fraud!
>>From: "Moosh:)" W0...@wooo.wooo
>>Date: 6/3/03 7:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>>On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:09:12 -0700, "William A. Noyes"
>><no.ad...@ctc.net> wrote:
>
>>>Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance
>
>>You mean I don't trawl PubMed and regurgitate an abstract or two?
>>That's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
>>few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
>>amongst them.
>
>Here we see the Science Geeks unable to get along with other Science Geeks.
>
>Obviously Moosh Brain doesn't believe in Geek Empowerment, let alone Patient
>Empowerment.
>--
>John Gohde,
> Patient Empowerment Advocate
> http://home.naturalhealthperspectives.com/empowerment.html
> Email: N...@NaturalHealthPerspectives.com
>www.NaturalHealthPerspectives.com - Pioneering De-Medicalization by handing back
>the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and resisting the
>categorization of life's problems as medical.
Since when does nutrition have patients, GOHDE?
John the Man
>Date: 6/3/03 11:58 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>Since when does nutrition have patients ... ?
Pocahontas to John Smith in May 1607, ... "It is the disease called Life."
Steve Harris
"Rich Shewmaker" <ri...@ilhawaii.net> wrote in message
news:DUSdnRsc_M_...@ilhawaii.net...
> So, what's wrong with treating the symptoms? In diabetes,
for example, the
> symptoms are renal failure, blindness, and loss of feet.
Well, techically symptoms are what the patient complains of,
and hardly anybody presents to doctor complaining of "foot
loss" or "renal failure."
But yes, modern medicine is palliative and that's not a
small thing. Also preventive, as you point out, and that's
also not a small thing. And supportive (replacing lost
hormones). Occasionally curative (infections, early
cancers). And finally a not-to-be missed aspect is the
ability of medicine to keep the patient from dying acutely,
until the patient's body can cope with the injury or disease
impact, and heal. That's a team effort, and you're dead
without all players in the game.
SBH
Rich Shewmaker
--
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message
news:bbjbn9$7mg$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Well said.
--Rich
John the Man
>you're dead without all players in the game.
This THREAD was the dry run for a new lesson in my tutorial of natural health.
The revised post will be posted tomorrow as a new THREAD. Some of the feedback
was helpful, while other comments gave me a good laugh. Of course, the most
important changes came from additonal research on my part. The revised lesson
is now perfect. :)
Sequentially it will be Lessnon #5A. My tutorial on Natural Health now
contains 15 Lessons. :)
And, of course, my 15 lessons on Natural Health were the most thought provoking
THREADs seen on smn in a long time.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
--
John Gohde,
Keith F. Lynch
> Well, techically symptoms are what the patient complains of, and
> hardly anybody presents to doctor complaining of "foot loss" or
> "renal failure."
If my feet fell off, I would complain.
An acquaintance of mine went to a doctor complaining of a "charley-
horse". They had to amputate his leg. (It was unsuspected diabetes,
and lack of circulation.) You can bet he complained.
Why do non-complaining patients get so much credit? Readers Digest
portrays an endless parade of children and adults dying from cancer
and other horrible things, but none of them ever complain, and the
magazine always praises them for this.
--
Keith F. Lynch - k...@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
William A. Noyes
"Moosh:)" <W0...@wooo.wooo> wrote in message
news:5jiodvgjub6kh1q44...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:09:12 -0700, "William A. Noyes"
> <no.ad...@ctc.net> wrote:
>
> >Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance
>
> You mean I don't trawl PubMed and regurgitate an abstract or two?
> That's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
> few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
> amongst them.
While I'd never bash Pubmed, most the sources I've referred to
in the last week came from either textbooks, a medical journal, or
some government's web site.
>
> From the posts of yours I've read, you seem to be on the GOHDE end of
> the spectrum -- pointless insult.
Yes for you special. You don't post any more scientific material
than John Gohde and if you average in his posts from years ago, he
comes out ahead of you. The worst of it, I think you could be
a better opponent if you would bothered.
You say I am politician, a pig, an elitist and now a Gohde, well I am sure
sure John is flattered .....though you better not turn your back on
any pigs from now on
.
Of course you don't insult do you?
As you would never sink to the level of insult......right?
The pointless pig............:-).............Noyes
William A. Noyes
Noyes says: "Anyway, MooShe never posts anything of any substance "
Mooshe:) comments:
You mean I don't trawl PubMed and regurgitate an abstract or two?
that's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
amongst them.
John Gohde also known as Dr. Geek comments the following:
Here we see the Science Geeks unable to get along with other Science Geeks.
Obviously Moosh Brain doesn't believe in Geek Empowerment, let alone Patient
Empowerment.
--
John Gohde,
<snip>
Moosh:) says:
Since when does nutrition have patients, GOHDE?
Noyes comes in with the following:
There is no honest line between nutrition and medicine, it's all just
biochemistry. That my mantra.............
Clearly you are becoming a spiritual leader! You have your
mantra and now I've got mine.
An elitist pointless political pig.....................William A.
It's all just biochemistry................................Noyes
John the Man
>> That's the silliest occupation I've seen from many. There are but a
>> few here who know what they are doing, and you certainly are not
>> amongst them.
Going back four years ago, supporting your assertions with "proper" citations
from Medline defined how posting was supposed to be done in a "science" ng.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
I, myself, have supported *all* my positions with citations over two years ago.
I read between 2 and 6 new news articles on prevention and healthy lifestyles
a day. I don't replace old citations with new ones. I only add new citations
that are truly spectacular. And, I have read the Full Text of these "hot"
studies for most of these timely studies. That is how I determine if they are
worth the bother of updating my websites. I comment on between 60 and 90 new
research articles a month on my Yahoo Group where they are appreciated. Jesus
said "don't throw your pearls before swine" and I don't waste it on creeps like
Moosh Brain.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Posting citations is time consuming. Anybody who has been here for more than a
few years has fought the same battles over and over again. Just because a
Troll tries to waste my time doesn't mean that I but not the Troll has to post
citations. I have solved the time problem with my website. Ergo, the person
with the question spends their time researching rather than me. My website has
a Goggle search engine interface. So nothing could be easier. The fact that
most new Twits on smn are lazy and ungrateful Boobs is *not* my problem.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
Moosh Brain don't cite citations. Therefore she/it does not follow the rules
for posting in a "sci" ng. Therefore Mooshy Brains is neither educated nor has
brains. Ergo, Moosh Brain is a Troll.
Just thought that you might want to know. :)
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people
trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/
Beverly Erlebacher
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Steve Harris <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>> Well, techically symptoms are what the patient complains of, and
>> hardly anybody presents to doctor complaining of "foot loss" or
>> "renal failure."
>
>If my feet fell off, I would complain.
>
>An acquaintance of mine went to a doctor complaining of a "charley-
>horse". They had to amputate his leg. (It was unsuspected diabetes,
>and lack of circulation.) You can bet he complained.
"Complains", in this context, is a medical tech term, and doesn't have
quite the same meaning as in non-technical English. Basically it means
"reports".
>Why do non-complaining patients get so much credit? Readers Digest
>portrays an endless parade of children and adults dying from cancer
>and other horrible things, but none of them ever complain, and the
>magazine always praises them for this.
Well, that's Reader's Digest for you. Stoically suffering in silence is
easier on the people who have to listen to you. So few people can do it
that the few out of millions who manage it are worth a writeup in that
arbiter of practical philosophy.
I would think that any competent doctor would want a patient to mention
all their symptoms. Many people are reticent, carrying over the politeness
of everyday life into the doctor-patient relationship, though of course
there are people who go overboard the other way. I've sometimes described
a symptom to a doctor with the disclaimer that I don't expect anything
to be done about it, I just want to know if it's of any importance. Usually
it isn't, sometimes there's something I can do to fix it, and on a few
occasions, it's been important, like a drug reaction.
If your friend had "complained" to a doctor much earlier that he was
always thirsty and urinating a lot, he might still have his leg. For him,
stoicism was a big mistake.
Steve Harris
it does in common usage, any more than "work" in physics
means quite what it does in common usage. Complaint in
medicine is generally taken to mean an initial report of
there being something wrong with mind or body that causes
pain or dysfunction or distress. It doesn't carry the
overtones of whining that it does in general usage.
You wouldn't go to the doctor complaining that your feet
fell off as a "symptom" (usually taken as a presenting
complaint), because if this was due to diabetes (our
subject) you would be dead first if you hadn't seen a
doctor. Auto amputation of toes happens occasionally (with
frostbite more than diabetes or peripheral vascular
disease), but autoamputation of feet, no. You might present
with this complaint/symptom if a train ran over you, but we
weren't talking about trains.
SBH
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in message
news:bbmdaf$419$1...@panix1.panix.com...
Gohde is a Moron
> Discussions of Vitalism, Holism, and Variation are Blah blah blah
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
> John Gohde,
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
> Patient Empowerment Advocate
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Gohde is a Moron
cares about him? Or is that why he spends so much time here? How
healthy is John Gohde really?
Gohde is a Moron
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Gohde is a Moron
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
John the Man
>Date: 6/6/03 12:59 AM !!!First Boot!!!
>Message-id: <43dc198d.0306...@posting.google.com>
>john...@naturalhealthperspective.com (N-H-P) wrote ...
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Hi Steve Harris, MD ... how is it going?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
John the Man
>Message-id: <43dc198d.0306...@posting.google.com>
>How many real friends do you think Gohde has? Does he have anyone who
>cares about him? Or is that why he spends so much time here? How
>healthy is John Gohde really?
May not be Steve this time around after all? Sounds like something a defeated
female would say.
Could it be yet one more version of Moosh Brain?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!