Religious or "Spiritual": Alcoholic Anonymous's 12 Steps- You Decide
Henry Cotter
"spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this with a
straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of these
Steps.
Here are the 12 Steps of AA. You decide if it sounds like a recipe for
religion:
----------------------------------------------------
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol- that our lives had
become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to
do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take a personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our improve our
conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for
knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we
tried to carry this message to alchoholics, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.
-----------------------------------------------------
Still not convinced? Well how about this little gem from the AA "Big
Book" which is read at *every* AA meeting:
"Remember that we deal with alcohol- cunning, baffling, powerful!
Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-
that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point.
We asked His protection and care with complete abandon."
-ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 58-59, "How it Works."
Or this one?
"Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We
must, or it will kill us! God make that possible."
-ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 62.
And of course, let's not forget the AA Third Step prayer that a good AA
member must recite every morning or maybe they'll "relapse" and drink
again:
"God, I offer myself to Thee- to build with me and to do with me as
Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy
will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear
witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of
life. May I do Thy will always!"
--page 63 of the book above.
I could go on and on, but why bother?
So, if you're an atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem,
you're pretty much fucked. But wait, that's what Chapter 4 of the "Big
Book", "We Agnostics" is for. My bad.
Look, I wouldn't mind if AA members were at least *honest* about
what the Steps is about. It really is just a pre-packaged religion.
And like Atheists in regards to denying the dogmatic aspects of Atheism,
only the true-believers of AA doctrine fail to recognize that fact.
--
Shalom,
Henry Cotter
http://www.masada2000.org
Kev
"religious" but it gets redefined continually in XA (always to show that it
somehow has nothing to do with religion/superstition). It seems that if you
say "spiritual not religious" enough times and with enough weight then it
will mean something.
Kev
Brighton UK
doc
Cotter) wrote:
>So, if you're an atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem,
>you're pretty much fucked. But wait, that's what Chapter 4 of the "Big
>Book", "We Agnostics" is for. My bad.
> Look, I wouldn't mind if AA members were at least *honest* about
>what the Steps is about. It really is just a pre-packaged religion.
>And like Atheists in regards to denying the dogmatic aspects of Atheism,
>only the true-believers of AA doctrine fail to recognize that fact.
Well, you have proved one point for AA: resentment definitely is the
number one enemy of alcoholics.
Good luck. You're going to need it.
Marty Capella
Actually, the BB says, "Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It
destroys more alcoholics than anything else." Disregarding for a
moment the anecdotal nature of the evidence offered, we can surmise
that this is just one more way to keep the membership in fear of the
big, bad real world. Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
the world I live in, that's called being human.
Once you come off your high horse, you might actually open your mind a
wee crack to let some light of rationality shine in. If it looks like
a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. AA is
a religion.
Besides--it's better to give a resentment than to have one!
Marty
doc
Since there's very little point in arguing with you, I'll wish you
luck. You last statement pretty much states your perspective
succinctly.
KG
Wrong wrong...
A religion defines how we believe in God, what that God is, how we worship
and a lot of other things.
AA does not do that.
You can pick any religion you want, or none, or any higher power you want,
and you are welcome there as long as you have the desire to stop drinking.
Good luck on having a sober serene life by playing God yourself and not
finding another.
Have fun with your debate. I choose to be teachable and accept what's worked
for millions, and I'm glad I'm not fighting anymore. What's the point of
that?
"doc" <drbo...@xprt.net> wrote in message
news:3d98398b...@news.xprt.net...
Melchizedek
"Henry Cotter" <mano...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5350-3D9...@storefull-2316.public.lawson.webtv.net...
You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
Ever wonder why AA has worked all these years? (-;
Gregory Gadow
> I often get this garbage from AA true believers that the 12 Steps are
> "spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this with a
> straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of these
> Steps.
Twelve step programs meet all the definitions of a religion. You can not
take part (ie, you are not "working the program") if you reject a
fundamental belief in a supernatural entity.
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The character of a nation and its dedication to its
core beliefs are not shown in times of peace, but in
times of conflict. As the United States now suppresses
the fundamental right to dissent and dismantles the
protections of due process, we show ourselves to be as
bad as, if not worse than, our enemies, for we show
ourselves to be hypocrites."
F.H.
> I could go on and on,
You can and you will apparently
> but why bother?
That *is* the question isn't it?
> So, if you're an atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem,
> you're pretty much fucked.
Only if you're afraid to move forward, giving up on a proven loser for
an unproven hope.
> You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
Unbelief? What the hell is that? There are many other options. Stay
where you are and whine, or move on and take responsibility for your own
fate and let others make their own choices without the input from your
unbelief.
Sober Agnostic Frank
Gregory Gadow
> You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
Such a fine exemplar.
Of a potty mouth, at least.
> Ever wonder why AA has worked all these years? (-;
Ever wonder why people can overcome their addiction in non-religious programs
like Secular Organizations for Sobriety in a matter of months while
12-steppers require years?
Gregory Gadow
> In article <3D987DC8...@serv.net>, Gregory Gadow
> <tech...@serv.net> wrote:
>
> > Henry Cotter wrote:
> >
> > > I often get this garbage from AA true believers that the 12 Steps are
> > > "spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this with a
> > > straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of these
> > > Steps.
> >
> > Twelve step programs meet all the definitions of a religion. You can not
> > take part (ie, you are not "working the program") if you reject a
> > fundamental belief in a supernatural entity.
>
> Sure you can take part, if you want to.
I have been in 12 step programs: Ala-Teen, Al-Anon and OA. I speak from
several years' worth of experience.
In order to "work the program", you must not only acknowledge the existence of
a "Higher Power" (Step 2), you must also declare your utter dependancy on it
(Step 3), partake in religious confession (Step 5), reiterate that only God
(who is no longer just an abiguous, amorphous "Higher Power") can cure your
"defects of character" (Step 6), beg this God to remove your "shortcomings"
(Step 7), continued with "prayer and meditation to improve [your] conscious
contact with God" and "praying only for knowledge of His will for us" (Step
11) and, after the mandatory "spiritual awakening", becoming an evangelist to
spread the Good News of the 12-Step program to all heathen and unbelievers who
must be shown the munificence and loving-kindness of the God who turned the
unbelievers in to drunks in the first place!
As an atheist, I am not allowed to take part, as I see more than half of these
steps as victimist nonsense and religious superstition. The 12 Steps are
*exactly* the same kind of "break them down so we can control them" techniques
used by many cults. Teach them they are helpless. Teach them they can not help
themselves. Teach them that utter dependance on others is the only way they
can make things better. Teach them that if things do not get better, they are
not "working the program." Teach them that they must become ministers of the
"Truth" that we teach, that their "healing" is not complete unless they bring
in other members.
Sorry people, but if you have a problem with alcohol or drugs or whatever, you
can't depend on some sky pixie to come down and make things all better. Steps
1, 8, 9, and 10 -- along with a commitment to stop with the alcohol or drugs
or whatever -- is all you need. TAKE SOME FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR
ACTIONS!
> If you don't want to, then don't.
Unfortunately, it is not that easy. AA -- religion and all -- is often times
MANDATED by United States courts: Attend AA for your drinking-related crime,
or go to jail. Secular alternatives, which often have track records at least
as good if not better, are not permitted. Twelve-step evangelists who claim
that their program is non-religious are simply deluded and liars; courts
ordering atheists and other non-believers to take part in the cult is grossly
unconstitutional.
Gregory Gadow
> In article <d23hpu85946qn39mp...@4ax.com>, GaryE
> <gary...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> > There are lot of important things in AA but helping the alcoholic who
> > still suffers is the mission, I think. Sure the literature is
> > littered with God and the meetings are as well, and it can be
> > intimidating, it can turn people off. My view is there are far to
> > many people who don't care if that happens.
>
> I have no idea how folks gather that AA is, or ever was, "missioned"
> with "helping" all alcoholics in any way the those words could possibly
> be defined at all.
Take a look at Step 12. To "complete" the program, you are required to
become an evangelist.
> Nor how anyone could suppose any such thing is even
> possible, by any group of persons. Strikes me as a silly notion, given
> the countless particular "ways" and "things" that alcoholics or others
> figure they might regard or like as "help".
It is nonetheless mandatory for all people who have worked the program to
engage in lifelong missionary work. Failure to do so becomes proof that you
are not "working the program" and, therefore, have failed.
> But then, AA most certainly has always clearly emphasized "a" way and
> help that it's missioned to offer to alcoholics, if they need or want
> that. Which is their call to make for themsef, too. Fair enough.
I see nothing in Step 12 about it being "a" way, nor mention that there are
several completely secular alternatives that are at least as effective.
Such would not be conducive to the cult mentality.
Tommy
"Gregory Gadow"
> Unfortunately, it is not that easy. AA -- religion and all -- is often
times
> MANDATED by United States courts: Attend AA for your drinking-related
crime,
> or go to jail. Secular alternatives, which often have track records at
least
> as good if not better, are not permitted. Twelve-step evangelists who
claim
> that their program is non-religious are simply deluded and liars; courts
> ordering atheists and other non-believers to take part in the cult is
grossly
> unconstitutional.
> --
> Gregory Gadow
Of course I'm a lying stepper when I explain to you that the rest of the
world doesn't have court-MANDATED attendance at or to AA meetings. It
appears we go voluntarily. But if it makes your 'case' sound stronger, you
could always use profanity and capitals to tick me off, couldn't you ?
Notwithstanding (jeez I love double-barreled words) that Buddhists, Jews,
Greek Orthodox, Russian Icon smugglers, Asian bum-twaddlers and Sunni
Moslems, who I may add are not MANDATED either, all attend AA and manage to
stay sober in spite of us religious and non-religious folks. There there
now, say a few Hail Marys and all will be well :-))
Cheerio and godbless
Tommy
Marty Capella
>Laughing out loud about the resentment comment.
>
>Wrong wrong...
>A religion defines how we believe in God, what that God is, how we worship
>and a lot of other things.
>AA does not do that.
If you are going to argue such things, you should do so from an
informed position. Words can't mean whatever you want them to mean.
There are accepted definitions. How's this for religion (from
Webster.com):
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b
(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) :
commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes,
beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith
religion=the service and worship of God or the supernatural.
Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of
His will for us and the power to carry that out.
religion=a cause, principle, or system of belifs held to with ardor
and faith.
Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice
these principles in all our affairs.
It's not a religion?
>You can pick any religion you want, or none, or any higher power you want,
>and you are welcome there as long as you have the desire to stop drinking.
Where do the steps say you can pick any higher power you want? The
steps I read continually mention God. Anyway, even if I pick a
doorknob, I am imbuing it with supernatural powers. That's religion,
my friend.
>Good luck on having a sober serene life by playing God yourself and not
>finding another.
>Have fun with your debate. I choose to be teachable and accept what's worked
>for millions, and I'm glad I'm not fighting anymore. What's the point of
>that?
Oh, I'm sober and serene--in fact, I feel more serene today than I
EVER felt in 16+ years in AA. But I don't play God. That game
doesn't exist.
The day I QUIT fighting with myself over the numerous inconcistencies
in the program and amongst program people, I became emminently more
teachable. The point: I'm willing to grow along rational lines.
Marty
Alan
"Henry Cotter" <mano...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5350-3D9...@storefull-2316.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> "spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this with a
> straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of these
> Steps.
>
I could care less if AA is spiritual or religious. All I know is that I am a
drunk, one that could not stay sober on my own resources. I needed help and
that help came from AA. If I want to save my soul, then I'll go to church. I
go to AA to save my A**. I no longer go to AA to learn how to stay sober, I
go to learn how to live a happy, serene life and to me that is a never
ending process so I continue to go. I do not rely on AA solely, I wish to go
further because the more I received out of the program the more I wanted, so
I have my studies outside of AA. I do not push God or AA on anyone, that is
their choice - not mine.
As an Atheist coming into the program of AA, I was repulsed by that G-O-D
word. I was told that I did not have to believe in God or anything else for
that matter, except for that fact that I am an alcoholic and that my life
was unmanageable. I've been to meetings all over the world and I have seen a
lot of people who used nature as a higher power and if that works for them
and they stay sober, it is alright with me.
One big thing that I have learned in my studies of self is that when I try
to enforce my opinions on others, there follows a rebellion. All the sudden
my life is no longer where I would like it to be.
My father has been sober for about 20 years now, it was that or die. He
never went to AA and condemns me for going. He is just as miserable of a
person as he was when he was drunk. I stay way away from him because I like
my sanity, he has a way of inflicting pain wherever he goes and is a very
lonely person. I think of him and all I wish to do is get to a meeting or
throw myself into a good spiritual book, not a religious book.
Funny, my father is just like I used to be - always throwing a nail in the
grinder just to see what happens. What a way to live - NO THANKS!
Good luck, Harry Cotter! If this is what's keeping you sober, my hats off to
you. It would never work for me! I was miserable when I drank and there's no
way that I'll stay that way.
Alan
Blue Moon
alcoholism. Clearly you've not honestly and thoroughly worked them
yourself. So what alternative do you have to offer for a solution to
alcoholism?
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
> the world I live in, that's called being human.
So much for honesty. "Resentment" does not mean "to feel again", it
means "to replay old angers and hurts in the mind, ever becoming more
of a victim in the process".
--
Blue Moon
John Hibbert
virtu...@dot.com wrote:
> No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> not attending AA.
Not so. People on probation for alcohol-related crimes are often told to
attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
- jh
--
R.I.P. "The World's Littlest Web Server!"
'Twas Murdered by administration.
John Hibbert
<wherethe'l'@tryit.com> wrote:
> Of course I'm a lying stepper when I explain to you that the rest of the
> world doesn't have court-MANDATED attendance at or to AA meetings. It
> appears we go voluntarily.
One does in fact go voluntarily. The probation agreement that gets signed
states that the probationer has a choice of following the terms of the
agreement OR going to jail for the remainder of his/her term. Some people
I knew actually did choose prison over living on probation. They alredy
possessed the sort of institutional mentality that AA would love to begin
with.
John "see, they were broken to begin with..." Hibbert
John Hibbert
<kgra...@yachoo.com> wrote:
> Good luck on having a sober serene life by playing God yourself and not
> finding another.
Simply not believing in a god doesn't make one believe that he is a god.
- jh
Gregory Gadow
> The 12 Steps are a proven method of recovery from even chronic
> alcoholism.
Really?
http://www.aadeprogramming.com/choose/books_deconstruct.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1884365124/104-9813677-5660704
http://www.peele.net/lib/inside.html
http://www.unhooked.com/sep/beyondaa.htm
> Clearly you've not honestly and thoroughly worked them
> yourself. So what alternative do you have to offer for a solution to
> alcoholism?
How about...
http://www.aafp.org/fpr/20020200/4.html
http://www.secularsobriety.org/
http://rational.org//
http://www.moderation.org/
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/
And for further reading:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/alcohol.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/aa.html
http://www.aadeprogramming.com/index_frames.html
F.H.
Blue Moon
wrote:
> In article <300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com>,
> virtu...@dot.com wrote:
>
> > No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > not attending AA.
>
> Not so. People on probation for alcohol-related crimes are often told to
> attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
I believe the point being made was they're on probation for a reason,
and that reason is never "non-attendance at AA". Imprisonment happens
as a result of breaking the terms of probation. If the probation
terms stated "stand on your head each day", failing to do so would be
a breach of probation. It's that breach which results in a jail
sentence.
--
Blue Moon
Kevin S. Wilson
wrote:
>Blue Moon wrote:
>
>> The 12 Steps are a proven method of recovery from even chronic
>> alcoholism.
>
>Really?
>
>http://www.aadeprogramming.com/choose/books_deconstruct.html
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1884365124/104-9813677-5660704
>http://www.peele.net/lib/inside.html
>http://www.unhooked.com/sep/beyondaa.htm
>
Is there some aspect of 12-step programs or athiesm that causes you
bozos to be unable to snip a newsgroup header back to a bare minimum
of groups for which your boring ramblings might be passingly on-topic?
--
Kevin S. Wilson
Tech Writer at a University Somewhere in Idaho
"You can safely ignore Kevin in order to
maximise life's experience." --A. Loon, in alt.religion.kibology
Blue Moon
wrote:
> Blue Moon wrote:
>
> > The 12 Steps are a proven method of recovery from even chronic
> > alcoholism.
>
> Really?
Yes they are. I can personally introduce you to dozens, perhaps
hundreds, of people who are sober as a direct result of this program.
As am I. But as you're not alcoholic, I'm not even sure what the hell
you're doing here in an alcoholism recovery forum.
> > Clearly you've not honestly and thoroughly worked them
> > yourself. So what alternative do you have to offer for a solution to
> > alcoholism?
>
> How about...
I wasn't asking you. But since you're here,
is not a solution to alcoholism. If you don't believe me, check out
their web site where it directs any real alcoholic to find an
absinence-based program.
--
Blue Moon
E Varden
>
> >
> Actually, the BB says, "Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It
> destroys more alcoholics than anything else." Disregarding for a
> moment the anecdotal nature of the evidence offered, we can surmise
> that this is just one more way to keep the membership in fear of the
> big, bad real world. Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
> the world I live in, that's called being human.
>
> Once you come off your high horse, you might actually open your mind a
> wee crack to let some light of rationality shine in. If it looks like
> a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. AA is
> a religion.
>
> Besides--it's better to give a resentment than to have one!
Oh dear. The etymology of resentement is not useful. Resentment means
-- here today -- anger about what has happened (to you), an anger
unresolved.
Don't waffle out of this by dopey recerche.
Resentment is a poison. There is nothing positive about it.
Work with this modification, Buster. Then you may come across somewhat
useful in your commentary.
Pe
Kevin S. Wilson
>But as you're not alcoholic, I'm not even sure what the hell
>you're doing here in an alcoholism recovery forum.
>
You know what's uncanny? I was wondering just now what the hell you
thought you were doing here in alt.peeves.
Trim the newsgroups line, genius.
Markus
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:300920021220003218%
> I have no idea how folks gather that AA is..
Polly because that, by your own admission, your not a stepper?
You also seem to have no idea on a lot of subjects (that you drivel on
about), but that is irrelevent I suppose.
-Markus
--
To Reply: remove 4u
Markus
> No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> breaking certain laws.
Rita never said such.
> No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> not attending AA.
Hmmm. Didn't the first Niece just do some jail time for non attendence?
Markus
news:8ikhpug37vecnmcg1...@4ax.com...
> Yes they are. I can personally introduce you to dozens, perhaps
> hundreds, of people who are sober as a direct result of this program.
Hmmm, and out of these "hundreds," how many no longer attend "this program?"
Marty Capella
Hmm...I'm not sure what honesty has to do with this, but I do know
that the word _resentment_ comes from the French, _ressentiment_,
which means to feel again. The modern definition is: Indignation or
ill will felt as a result of a real or imagined grievance
(dictionary.com). If you'll note, being a victim doesn't play into
it.
deNuptiis
Marty Capella
BM:
It would help to specify whose inventory you are taking.
Marty
Marty Capella
>Oh dear. The etymology of resentement is not useful. Resentment means
>-- here today -- anger about what has happened (to you), an anger
>unresolved.
Not useful to whom? If I'm going to use words, I like to know what
they mean. That's just a little character defect of mine, I guess.
>
>Don't waffle out of this by dopey recerche.
What's wrong with a little research? If I accepted everything at face
value that came across my newsreader or email, I'd be spreading
misinformation about virii, the Clintons, and Bill Gates. This is
just more of the same anti-intellectual crap I got in XA for so many
years.
>
>Resentment is a poison. There is nothing positive about it.
Why are feelings a poison? Mad, sad, glad, and scared. Shit, even
Christ was resentful at times.
>
>Work with this modification, Buster. Then you may come across somewhat
>useful in your commentary.
>
>
>Pe
"Oh dear" and "Buster"--I knew the aged would someday get ahold of
computers!
Marty Capella
>> http://www.moderation.org/
>
>is not a solution to alcoholism. If you don't believe me, check out
>their web site where it directs any real alcoholic to find an
>absinence-based program.
But BM, some of us just don't accept AA's allegation that once an
alcoholic, always an alcoholic, so what is a "real alcoholic"?
Al (Stuart)
"Marty Capella" <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote in message
news:giphpuogr3q4pc8sl...@4ax.com...
It's outlined very clearly in the Big Book Marty.
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:34:25 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:15:28 GMT, Marty Capella
> ><sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
> >> the world I live in, that's called being human.
> >
> >So much for honesty. "Resentment" does not mean "to feel again", it
> >means "to replay old angers and hurts in the mind, ever becoming more
> >of a victim in the process".
>
> Hmm...I'm not sure what honesty has to do with this
There were allegations of dishonesty about the AA program, then to
back up the assertions a dishonest definition of "resentment" was
presented. I just thought I'd be helpful! Let's be brutally honest,
this anti-recovery religion needs all the help it can get, 'cos those
who've honestly and thoroughly worked the program understand what the
program really means rather than what it might appear to mean.
Curiously, nobody who's honestly and thoroughly worked the program
seems to be bashing it.
> The modern definition is: Indignation or ill will felt as a result
> of a real or imagined grievance (dictionary.com). If you'll note,
> being a victim doesn't play into it.
The ill will produces the effect of being more a victim than the
reality would be the case. The process of resentment typically alters
the perception. After all, if the person replaying the resentment was
not playing the role of victim, they'd not be replaying the
resentment. Curiously, I never resented the things I did to others,
only the things they did to me.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
Yours, of course. I thought that would be obvious. I notice you
didn't deny what I said, but simply tried to deflect the statement.
What were we saying about the AA program and honesty?
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
The best description I can offer is the "doctor's opinion" and chapter
3 in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous".
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> >Resentment is a poison. There is nothing positive about it.
>
> Why are feelings a poison? Mad, sad, glad, and scared.
These are feelings, not resentments. Resentment is a reprocessing of
an old event which induced an emotion like anger or fear, turning it
into the same emotion in the present. In my experience that emotion
often feels more acute, because it's out of context with what was
happening at the time.
> Shit, even Christ was resentful at times.
Was he? In all my bible studies as a kid I never noticed that. Sure,
he got angry, occasionally more angry than I ever remember getting in
my most drunken outbursts. He projected in the days leading up to his
death. But I must have missed the resentment part. I remember tales
of him being angry at current practices, not reliving his perception
of the past.
--
Blue Moon
h2o4me2
"John Hibbert" <jhib...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jhibbert-300...@192.168.1.100...
> In article <300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com>,
> virtu...@dot.com wrote:
>
> > No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > not attending AA.
>
> Not so. People on probation for alcohol-related crimes are often told to
> attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
>
> - jh
The key word here is agreement.
Marty Capella
>On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:28:21 GMT, Marty Capella
><sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:34:25 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:15:28 GMT, Marty Capella
>> ><sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
>> >> the world I live in, that's called being human.
>> >
>> >So much for honesty. "Resentment" does not mean "to feel again", it
>> >means "to replay old angers and hurts in the mind, ever becoming more
>> >of a victim in the process".
>>
>> Hmm...I'm not sure what honesty has to do with this
>
>There were allegations of dishonesty about the AA program, then to
>back up the assertions a dishonest definition of "resentment" was
>presented. I just thought I'd be helpful! Let's be brutally honest,
>this anti-recovery religion needs all the help it can get, 'cos those
>who've honestly and thoroughly worked the program understand what the
>program really means rather than what it might appear to mean.
>Curiously, nobody who's honestly and thoroughly worked the program
>seems to be bashing it.
I don't remember reading a dishonest definition of resentment.
Someone lied about the definition? Seems easy enough to correct.
You might want to look up the definition of religion, too. No one in
any of the posts I've read is "anti-recovery." Just anti-XA. And I
couldn't help but LOL reading the bit about, "nobody who's honestly
and thoroughly worked the program seems to be bashing it." How the
hell do you know? Oh, I know. It's that XA
heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logic. If someone bashes XA, they aren't
honest and thorough. False logic, BM!
>
>> The modern definition is: Indignation or ill will felt as a result
>> of a real or imagined grievance (dictionary.com). If you'll note,
>> being a victim doesn't play into it.
>
>The ill will produces the effect of being more a victim than the
>reality would be the case. The process of resentment typically alters
>the perception. After all, if the person replaying the resentment was
>not playing the role of victim, they'd not be replaying the
>resentment. Curiously, I never resented the things I did to others,
>only the things they did to me.
Hmm.."playing the role of victim." Maybe some people with resentments
in XA HAVE been victimized, or do you believe that there are no
victims, only volunteers? I've encountered many an XA fellow who
lived by the better to give one than have one philosophy and used it
as an excuse to say whatever to whomever.
Marty Capella
Ah, see, I didn't know that, BM, because you didn't specify in the
header. The answer to your question is clear: a solution to
alcoholism is not to drink. How one chooses to do that is a personal
choice.
Marty
Marty Capella
Oh, yeah, that's right. And there has been no scientific progress
since first copyrighted.
Marty Capella
LOL. What's the difference between a drunk and a real alcoholic?
Real alcoholics go to meetings.
Markus
news:096m9.17216$OO4.9...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> It's outlined very clearly in the Big Book Marty.
In other words, "real alcoholic" is nothing more than XA priory speculation,
as I suspected. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
Thomas Pain
>
> Melchizedek wrote:
>
> > You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
>
> Unbelief? What the hell is that? There are many other options. Stay
> where you are and whine, or move on and take responsibility for your own
> fate and let others make their own choices without the input from your
> unbelief.
What he's saying is that the entire premise of drug and alcohol abuse
recovery is religious brainwashing through AA philosophy.
STAAMFA
"Virt
| There were posts there disclaiming and denouncing both "recovery"
Yes, well I recall you denouncing participating in a "recovery" newsgroup.
Don't you Virt? You know virt they say the memory is the first to go? But
hey let's face it you appear to be way beyond that.
STAAMFA
"Virt
| I wonder just why SOS has always been so small and so few people ever
| do that.
Because AA's in the treatment centers are so large and very seldom will
anyone to do that!
STAAMFA
"Virt
| "Anti" doesn't appear to honor others' personal choices.
Who's anti personal Choice besides steppers pushing and accepting coercees?
Al (Stuart)
"Marty Capella" <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote in message
Sure there has Marty. But you asked where to find the definition relative to
AA. You may ascribe to any other "scientific" definition that you want to
Gump, as I am sure there are many. The Big Book is not about science, it is
about human nature.
F.H.
What he said is "that if "you're" (meaning himself it would seem) an
atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem "you're" pretty
much fucked."
and
"You're fucked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief."
In order for this to be true, he would have to believe that AA (and his
God or the highway interpretation) was the only option out there. How
else could he be "fucked?" I guess if you want to sit down and cry and
avoid "you're" problem while playing the big brother/intellectual role
to a bunch of people you don't even know it becomes a self fulfilling
prophecy. What I'm saying is that as an agnostic I, and a number of my
friends took what we needed and left the rest. Just like all the drunks
down on the boulevard all these anti AA types will be doing and saying
the same thing years from now. "You're" life. Makes for some
interesting epitaphs.
F.H.
Cousin Tillie
My name is Tillie and I want to tell you that it isn't just Evil
Thumpers that rape poor innocent little newcomers. I was RAPED
by freethinkers!!!
Down the street from where I live, there's a meeting place for the
Society of Rationalists, Agnostics, and Freethinkers (SRAF). I
always saw people coming and going from that meeting place, but I
always thought they just looked like a bunch of greasy old men.
One day I hit bottom and needed some help with rationalism and
freethinking, so I went to one of their meetings. It happened
right there in the men's room. They took turns, first the
freethinkers, then the rationalists, with an occasional agnostic
for good measure. Now I've made it my life's work to warn people
about this danger among us.
Cousin Tillie
Cousin Tillie
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She was sent to a recovery
group for NPD, but she had to leave because nobody there could
understand her special needs. Can anyone suggest any alternative
*modalities*??
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need
for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood
and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or
more) of the following:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior
without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,
brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only
be understood by, or should associate with, other special or
high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of
especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or
her expectations
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of
others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the
feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious
of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Associated Features
Depressed Mood
Dramatic/Erratic/Antisocial Personality
----------------------------------------------------
Medical Treatment
Hospitalization
The hospitalization of patients with severe Narcissistic
Personality occurs frequently. For some, such as those who are
quite impulsive or self-destructive, or who have poor
reality-testing, this is the result of Axis I symptoms which are
overlaid upon the personality disorder. Hospitalizations should be
brief, and the treatment specific to the particular symptom
involved.
Another group of patients for whom hospitalization is indicated,
provided long-term residential treatment is available, are those
who have poor motivation for outpatient treatment, fragile object
relationships, chronic destructive acting out, and chaotic
life-styles. An inpatient program can offer an intensive milieu
which includes individual psychotherapy, family involvement, and a
specialized residential environment. The structure is physically
and emotionally secure enough to sustain the patient with severe
ego weakness throughout the course of expressive, conflict-solving
psychotherapy.
Small staff-patient groups within the wards, as well as large
community meetings, at which feelings are shared and patients'
comments taken seriously by staff, and constructive work
assignments, recreational activities, and opportunities to
sublimate painfully conflictual impulses make the hospital a
"holding" environment rather than merely a containing one. The
ultimate goals are of effecting a better integrated internal
world, more cohesive and modulated self-object representation, and
a self-concept less vulnerable to narcissistic injury.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/
Psychosocial Treatment
Basic Principles
Narcissistic patients try to sustain an image of perfection and
personal invincibility for themselves and attempt to project that
impression to others as well. Physical illness may shatter this
illusion, and a patient may lose the feeling of safety inherent in
a cohesive sense of self. This loss precipitates a panicky
sensation that "my world is falling to pieces," and the patient
feels a sense of personal fragmentation.
The histrionic patient's idealization of the physician stands in
contrast to the narcissistic patient's frequent contemptuous
disregard for the physician, who is denigrated in a defensive
effort to maintain a sense of superiority and mastery over
illness. Only the most senior physician in a prestigious
institution is deemed worthy of respect as the frightened patient
seeks an external reflection of his or her own fragile grandeur in
the doctor. More junior members of the health care team may be the
targets of derision as the patient seeks to establish hierarchical
dominance in order to counter the shame and fear triggered by
illness.
Health care professionals must convey a feeling of respect and
acknowledge the patient's sense of self-importance so that the
patient can reestablish a coherent sense of self, but they must at
the same time avoid reinforcing either pathologic grandiosity
(which may contribute to denial of illness) or weakness (which
frightens the patient). An initial approach of support followed by
step-by-step confrontation of the patient's vulnerabilities may
enable the patient to deal with the implications of illness with
feelings of greater subjective strength. The increased
self-confidence may reduce the patient's need to attack the health
care team in a misguided effort at psychologic self-preservation
and eases the pressure to provide perfect care, since the
patient's antagonistic feeling of entitlement (defined by DSM-III
as an "expectation of special favors without assuming reciprocal
responsibilities") is reduced.
Many of the treatment principles and approaches discussed for this
disorder apply as well to Borderline Personality Disorder.
The individual with narcissistic and related personality disorders
is likely to present with Axis I symptoms and disorders at various
times in his or her life. These should be treated as described
elsewhere. Caution should be observed, however, not to
overdiagnose psychotic decompensation as Schizophrenia unless all
DSM-III criteria are apparent. The same caveat applies to the
pharmacologic treatment of depressive symptoms in the absence of
clinical signs of Major Affective Disorder. When treating
presenting symptoms and Axis I disorders in patients with
Narcissistic Personality Disorder and other similar conditions,
attention should be paid to the consequences of removing symptoms
in a patient whose underlying character is primitive and or
fragile.
Some clinicians, suggest that the grandiosity and tendency to
idealize and devalue should be interpreted as defensive maneuvers
when aspects of early conflictual relationships are played out in
adult life. Other clinicians, posit that the emergence of the
patient's grandiosity and tendency to idealize the therapist
should initially be viewed supportively. To help the individual
develop stronger self-esteem regulation, the therapist then
gradually points out the realistic limitations of patient and
therapist alike while also offering an empathic ambience to
cushion patients in their efforts to accept and integrate these
experiences. Unfortunately, much research will be required to
validate the description and course of narcissistic personality
disorder before further research can answer which techniques bring
about a better response to treatment.
Individual Psychotherapy
Most psychiatrists will, as a practical matter, treat most of
their severely narcissistic patients for symptoms related to
crises and relatively external Axis I diagnoses, rather than in an
effort to address the personality disorder itself. The therapist
must be aware of the importance of narcissism to the contiguity of
the patient's psyche, refrain from confronting the need for
self-aggrandizement, and help the patient use his or her
narcissistic characteristics to reconstitute an intact self-image.
Positive transference and therapeutic alliance should not be
relied upon, since the patient may not be able to acknowledge the
real humanness of the therapist but may have to see him/her as
either superhuman or devalued.
Those patients who do not terminate treatment after symptom relief
has been obtained may wish help for some of the problems related
to their personality disorder, such as interpersonal difficulties
or depression. The therapist must have a good understanding of the
principles of the narcissistic personality style, both for
interpretation to the patient and for use in combating
countertransference. Goals for ordinary psychotherapy should not
be too great, since the source of these patients' difficulties
lies deep in pathological development.
Group Therapy
The goals are to help the patient develop a healthy individuality
(rather than a resilient narcissism) so that he or she can
acknowledge others as separate persons, and to decrease the need
for self-defeating coping mechanisms. The first step toward
developing a working alliance is empathy with the surprise and
hurt that the patient experiences as a result of confrontations
within the group. The external structuring group therapy provides
can control destructive behavior in spite of ego weakness. In
groups, the therapist is less authoritative (and less threatening
to the patient's grandiosity); intensity of emotional experience
is lessened; and regression is more controlled, creating a better
setting for confrontation and clarification.
Outpatient analytic-expressive group therapy requires a
concomitant individual relationship for most patients, which
should be somewhat supportive. The need for this additional
support, the likelihood of the patient's leaving the group at the
first sign of psychic insult, and proneness to disorganized
thinking are all found more often in the Borderline patient. The
patient with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder does not appear
so vulnerable to separation anxieties as the Borderline patient,
but is instead involved in issues centered around maintaining a
sense of self-worth
Cousin Tillie
He's been diagnosed with Paranoid Personality Disorder. He went
to a recovery group for PPD, but he had to leave because it was a
cult and they were controlling his thoughts. Does anyone know of
any non-cult, secular *modalities*??
http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-pe01.html
Paranoid Personality Disorder
Personality disorder characterized by at least 3 of the following:
(a) excessive sensitiveness to setbacks and rebuffs;
(b) tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive
insults and injuries or slights;
(c) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience
by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as
hostile or contemptuous;
(d) a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of
keeping with the actual situation;
(e) recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual
fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
(f) tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in
a persistent self-referential attitude;
(g) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial"
explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the
world at large.
----------------------------------------------
Medical Treatment
Basic Principles
Medications are likely to be "received" with suspicion, interfere
with the little rapport that can be gained, and may be of little
direct benefit.
Antianxiety Drugs
When the patient starts to decompensate with agitation or anxiety,
an antianxiety drug such as diazepam usually is sufficient for
brief crisis management.
Antipsychotic Drugs
If the patient decompensates further with severe agitation or
quasidelusional thinking, it may be necessary to use an
antipsychotic such as thioridazine or haloperidol, in small doses
for brief periods of time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/
Psychosocial Treatment
Basic Principles
Supportive psychotherapy is the treatment of choice. Therapists
must remember that trust and toleration of intimacy are troubled
areas for these patients. Too zealous a use of interpretation -
especially interpretation concerning deep feelings of dependency,
sexual concerns, and wishes for intimacy - significantly increases
the patient's mistrust.
At times, paranoid patient's behavior becomes so threatening that
it is important to control it or set limits on it. Delusional
accusations must be dealt with realistically but gently and
without humiliating the patient. It is profoundly frightening for
paranoid patients to feel that those trying to help them are weak
and helpless; therefore, therapists should never threaten to take
over control unless they are both willing and able to do so.
Paranoid patients do not do well in group therapy, nor are they
likely to tolerate the intrusiveness of the behavior therapies.
Individual Psychotherapy
Individual psychotherapy requires a professional and not overly
warm style from the therapist. Therapists should be
straightforward in all their dealings with the patient. Paranoid
personality disorder patients are exquisitely sensitive to
evasions, and a tangled web of maneuvering may dominate the
interaction after the initial "white lie". Rather than challenging
the patient's denials and projections, it may be best to listen
patiently to their accusations and complaints, and avoid taking
sides.
Marty Capella
<gost...@where.nosun> wrote:
>
>"Marty Capella" <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote in message
>news:ucvhpu40tdvcpt0n6...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 00:39:24 GMT, "Al \(Stuart\)"
>> <gost...@where.nosun> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Marty Capella" <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote in message
>> >news:giphpuogr3q4pc8sl...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:44:19 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> http://www.moderation.org/
>> >> >
>> >> >is not a solution to alcoholism. If you don't believe me, check out
>> >> >their web site where it directs any real alcoholic to find an
>> >> >absinence-based program.
>> >>
>> >> But BM, some of us just don't accept AA's allegation that once an
>> >> alcoholic, always an alcoholic, so what is a "real alcoholic"?
>> >
>> >It's outlined very clearly in the Big Book Marty.
>> >
>> Oh, yeah, that's right. And there has been no scientific progress
>> since first copyrighted.
>
>Sure there has Marty. But you asked where to find the definition relative to
>AA. You may ascribe to any other "scientific" definition that you want to
>Gump, as I am sure there are many. The Big Book is not about science, it is
>about human nature.
>
Or is that religion?
Marty Capella
wrote:
As an agnostic, how do you turn your will and your life over and to
what? How do you admit to God, yourself, and another human being the
exact nature of your wrongs? How do you have a spiritual awakening?
And these AA types will be doing and saying the same thing years from
now.
Marty Capella
>I wasn't asking you. But since you're here,
>
>> http://www.moderation.org/
>
>is not a solution to alcoholism. If you don't believe me, check out
>their web site where it directs any real alcoholic to find an
>absinence-based program.
By the way, BM, can you point me in the direction on the MM website
where it says that any real alcoholic needs to find an
abstinence-based program? I couldn't find it, but I didn't read every
page.
Marty
Marty Capella
Marty Capella
<bud...@earthlink2002.net> wrote:
>Can anyone help my Aunt Katrinka? She's been diagnosed with
>Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She was sent to a recovery
>group for NPD, but she had to leave because nobody there could
>understand her special needs. Can anyone suggest any alternative
>*modalities*??
>
>http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html
>
>Narcissistic Personality Disorder
>
>A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need
>for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood
>and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or
>more) of the following:
How about AA?
F.H.
> As an agnostic, how do you turn your will and your life over and to
> what?
I admitted my life had become unmanageable because of booze. I
surrendered my compulsion to drink. I re(turned) control of my will and
my life to myself.
> How do you admit to God, yourself, and another human being the
> exact nature of your wrongs?
The nature of my wrongs was no secret. Lean to Buddhism. No
inclination to talk to God. Took what I needed and left the rest.
> How do you have a spiritual awakening?
My approach was to get a much bigger picture visa vi comparative
mythology. I'm not frightened by the belief systems of others.
> And these AA types will be doing and saying the same thing years from
> now.
Yes, they'll be Happy, sober and free and you'll be telling them that
you know better. Heh, ain't it just like a preacher.
Marty Capella
wrote:
I think you misrepresent my position. I never told anyone that I know
better. Why is it that merely questioning basic tenets of the program
elicits such snide responses? I'm happy for you and your friends that
you can take what you need and leave the rest, but for me that's
dishonesty. After 16+ years in AA, I had to be honest with myself and
decide what the hell I was doing in a religious/spiritual program if
I'm an atheist. I got sick and tired of living a lie. I asked the
questions above because I was curious about what lies you had to tell
yourself that tweaked God into whatever it became.
But hey, that's just me.
Kev
"h2o4me2" <h2o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CP6m9.2025$lV3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
your sentence can we compromise and reach an "agreement". Yes, I'm quite
sure they'd go for that.
Kev
Brighton UK
Kev
"Blue Moon" <mf...@clara.net> wrote in message
news:f6thpustgc60ok176...@4ax.com...
Acording to the "Doctor's Opinion" alcoholism is an allergy. However, an
allergy is a response of the immune system to an otherwise neutral
substance. Alcoholism is not a respomse of the immune system therefore
alcoholism is not an allergy. The doctor got it completely wrong.
Kev
Brighton UK
Charles Riggs
Cotter) wrote:
>I often get this garbage from AA true believers that the 12 Steps are
>"spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this with a
>straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of these
>Steps.
...
I think I know just what you mean.
The step that most bothers me is this one:
>3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>God as we understood Him.
Being a Buddhist, there is no way I could turn my will and my life
over to the care of God. Even if I believed in a personal God with a
long grey beard, which I certainly don't, I wouldn't know how to turn
my will and life over to him. "If not God, substitute a
chair...anything", I've heard some AAers say. Yeah, right.
>So, if you're an atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem,
>you're pretty much fucked. But wait, that's what Chapter 4 of the "Big
>Book", "We Agnostics" is for. My bad.
I know, but knowing there are some good people at meetings, I approach
AA with an I'll-take-what-I-want-out-of-the-program attitude, leaving
the religiosity portions to others, and sort of turning off my ears
when some person, usually a woman, goes off on one of those
How-thankful-I-am-to-God spiels. Bill and Bob may not have intended
this approach, but perhaps it will work for me this time around.
> Look, I wouldn't mind if AA members were at least *honest* about
>what the Steps is about. It really is just a pre-packaged religion.
>And like Atheists in regards to denying the dogmatic aspects of Atheism,
>only the true-believers of AA doctrine fail to recognize that fact.
So be it. You don't have to do what they do or believe what some of
them say.
I do hate it though when some AAer tells us, "if you haven't found God
yet, you will". I don't need to hear that sort of condescension, it
sounding like I'm some sort of child who has never given religion and
God a thought.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<Melch...@as-if.com> wrote:
>You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
>Ever wonder why AA has worked all these years? (-;
You're a good example of the type of gung-ho, unthinking person that
often turns many atheists and agnostics off, in AA.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
...
>AA will certainly survive as a fellowship because treatment is not
>about fellowship, it's primarily drunks helping drunks. The God deal
>was a good money raiser in the beginning.
...
Thank you, Gary. I found your words helpful. You seem to have found a
positive way to deal with the religiosity aspects of AA and some of
its people who push religion. I hope I can do the same. I'd prefer not
to drop out of my local group, for I know there are some good people
there. If I can find just one other, who thinks more or less as I do
on the God question, I'll be happier, though. I brought up my problem
with the God aspects of AA during the last meeting I attended -- it
was met, largely, by blank stares. That said, the group was
particularly small that morning.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:34:25 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:15:28 GMT, Marty Capella
>><sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, resentment means, "to feel again." In
>>> the world I live in, that's called being human.
>>
>>So much for honesty. "Resentment" does not mean "to feel again", it
>>means "to replay old angers and hurts in the mind, ever becoming more
>>of a victim in the process".
>
>Hmm...I'm not sure what honesty has to do with this, but I do know
>that the word _resentment_ comes from the French, _ressentiment_,
>which means to feel again. The modern definition is: Indignation or
>ill will felt as a result of a real or imagined grievance
>(dictionary.com). If you'll note, being a victim doesn't play into
>it.
The etymology of a word, interesting as some are, very often has
nothing to do with the current definition of that word. Resentment is
a bad thing to have, and does not mean "to feel again".
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 02:03:41 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:29:54 GMT, Marty Capella
>><sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:31:41 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >The 12 Steps are a proven method of recovery from even chronic
>>> >alcoholism. Clearly you've not honestly and thoroughly worked them
>>> >yourself. So what alternative do you have to offer for a solution to
>>> >alcoholism?
>>>
>>> BM:
>>>
>>> It would help to specify whose inventory you are taking.
>>
>>Yours, of course. I thought that would be obvious. I notice you
>>didn't deny what I said, but simply tried to deflect the statement.
>>What were we saying about the AA program and honesty?
>
>Ah, see, I didn't know that, BM, because you didn't specify in the
>header. The answer to your question is clear: a solution to
>alcoholism is not to drink. How one chooses to do that is a personal
>choice.
In fact, THE solution is not to drink. I think many people need help
to do this, though. That help almost certainly must come from other
people: people in this newsgroup, friends, and, perhaps, AA people. I
find that quitting alcohol for someone who has drunk it through most
of 40 years is not an easy process; it usually isn't easy for any
other alcoholic either, regardless of how long they've been drinking;
alcohol is a real bitch.
Charles Riggs
trai...@charnospamtermi.net
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:15:35 -0400, "KG" <kgra...@yachoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Laughing out loud about the resentment comment.
>>
>>Wrong wrong...
>>A religion defines how we believe in God, what that God is, how we worship
>>and a lot of other things.
>>AA does not do that.
......................
.......................
>
>The day I QUIT fighting with myself over the numerous inconcistencies
>in the program and amongst program people, I became emminently more
>teachable. The point: I'm willing to grow along rational lines.
>
>Marty
Who cares?
Kev
"Virtualoso" <virtu...@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:011020020035097900%virtu...@innocent.com...
> In article <anbfhv$mim$1...@helle.btinternet.com>, Kev
> <kev...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Blue Moon" <mf...@clara.net> wrote in message
> > news:f6thpustgc60ok176...@4ax.com...
> > > On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 00:05:33 GMT, Marty Capella
> > > <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:44:19 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> http://www.moderation.org/
> > > > >
> > > > >is not a solution to alcoholism. If you don't believe me, check
out
> > > > >their web site where it directs any real alcoholic to find an
> > > > >absinence-based program.
> > > >
> > > > But BM, some of us just don't accept AA's allegation that once an
> > > > alcoholic, always an alcoholic, so what is a "real alcoholic"?
> > >
> > > The best description I can offer is the "doctor's opinion" and chapter
> > > 3 in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous".
> > >
> > > --
> > > Blue Moon
> >
> > Acording to the "Doctor's Opinion" alcoholism is an allergy. However, an
>
> More accurately:
>
> "...the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a
> manifestation of an allergy: that the phenomena of craving is limited
> to this class ...
As I said the doctor says its an allergy.
>The classification of alcoholics seems most
> difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book."
>
Yet the "Doctor's Opinion" was cited as the "best" description of alcoholim.
> According to just whom *isn't* that class of alcoholics suffering from
> a physical manifestation of an allergy?
Fuck knows what you're trying to say with this gibberish.
Kev
Brighton UK
Kev
> In article <05jipu8gtqbt2acmo...@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
> <chr...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > In fact, THE solution is not to drink. I think many people need help
> > to do this, though. That help almost certainly must come from other
> > people: people in this newsgroup, friends, and, perhaps, AA people. I
> > find that quitting alcohol for someone who has drunk it through most
> > of 40 years is not an easy process; it usually isn't easy for any
> > other alcoholic either, regardless of how long they've been drinking;
> > alcohol is a real bitch.
>
> the essential psychic change. ... Many types do not respond to the
> ordinary psychological approach."
>
> "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost
> the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes
> practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times ... We are
> without defense against the first drink."
>
> "Highly competent psychiatrists who have dealt with us have found it
> sometimes impossible to persuade an alcoholic to discuss his situation
> without reserve. Strangely enough, wives, parents and intimate friends
> usually find us even more unapproachable than do the psychiatrist and
> doctor."
>
> "When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with
> alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid
> ... If you were as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is
> no middle-of-the-road solution."
Charles' post made sense. Why do you need to resort to quoting crap from the
Big Book to him. Just because some nut (Bill W) wrote something in the 1930s
does not make it fact.
Kev
Brighton UK
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> You might want to look up the definition of religion, too. No one in
> any of the posts I've read is "anti-recovery." Just anti-XA. And I
> couldn't help but LOL reading the bit about, "nobody who's honestly
> and thoroughly worked the program seems to be bashing it." How the
> hell do you know?
Ok, prove me wrong. Answer the question: have you ever seriously even
tried to honestly work the program?
> Oh, I know. It's that XA heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logic. If someone
> bashes XA, they aren't honest and thorough. False logic, BM!
You can bash "XA" all you like, not that "XA" exists except in the
minds of a select few. AA is a long way from perfect, despite being
full of perfectionists! But we're not talking about AA, we're talking
about the AA program.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> The answer to your question is clear: a solution to alcoholism is
> not to drink.
No, the solution to drinking is to not drink. There's an enormous
difference between drinking and alcoholism. "Not drinking" as a
solution to alcoholism is a death sentence, which is why there are so
many suicides among non-drinking, but non-recovered, alcoholics.
You'll notice the Steps don't say "We stopped drinking", they seem to
assume the individual has already done that but found he can't be
content with staying stopped and so needs to find a new way of life,
some sort of structure to help sort out the mess of the past and move
on with alternative emotional strategies to booze. Certainly Step 4
would be incompatible with drinking, so if you can't stop drinking,
get detox. AA doesn't do detox, so you'll need some sort of medical
assistance for that. If you want to recover from alcoholism, work the
Steps.
If you don't understand what alcoholism is, get a firm understanding
of Step 1. If you then decide you're not alcoholic, you're welcome to
go do whatever else you want. If you find you develop a need to drink
again, no matter what else happens AA fellowship and the AA program
will always be there.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
wrote:
> If I can find just one other, who thinks more or less as I do
> on the God question, I'll be happier, though.
Perhaps in another, on-topic thread in an appropriate newsgroup you
can discuss this and see what others think. Quite a few here seem to
be agnostic or atheist and yet have few difficulties with the program.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> After 16+ years in AA, I had to be honest with myself and
> decide what the hell I was doing in a religious/spiritual program if
> I'm an atheist.
That's my point. You were NOT in any program. You were in the AA
fellowship. Big difference. I would wholeheartedly agree that being
in AA and not working the program would, for me, be a fate worse than
death.
--
Blue Moon
LanceBresee
> Ha, "agreement", I'd like to try that in court. Judge I don't agree with
> your sentence can we compromise and reach an "agreement". Yes, I'm quite
> sure they'd go for that.
>
but that's exactly how it works.
Con's lawyer tells the judge that his client will go to AA,
can the judge be lenient,
DA got his conviction on record, so what's he care?
Boom.
Out the door with a yellow sheet the con is too stupid to get a
meeting directory and have his friends sign for him.
Blue Moon
<sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
> LOL. What's the difference between a drunk and a real alcoholic?
Whilst it's true that a "drunk" is a common-usage term for
"alcoholic", there's a big difference between a heavy drinker and an
alcoholic. Read Chapter 3 ("more about alcoholism") as I suggested
and you'll see what I mean.
> Real alcoholics go to meetings.
Many real alcoholics don't, and eventually die of untreated
alcoholism. Many other real alcoholics do, but don't work the
program, and eventually die of untreated alcoholism. Many
non-alcoholics who were once heavy drinkers but seem to not be
alcoholic do, though I don't understand why they'd bother. Few real
alcoholics do, don't work the program, and yet don't drink again. I'm
a real alcoholic who does, has worked the program, and expect not to
drink again.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
wrote:
> Acording to the "Doctor's Opinion" alcoholism is an allergy. However, an
> allergy is a response of the immune system to an otherwise neutral
> substance. Alcoholism is not a respomse of the immune system therefore
> alcoholism is not an allergy. The doctor got it completely wrong.
In this context, "allergy" is the word used to describe an "abnormal
reaction". See dictionary.com. The doctor didn't have the benefit of
today's science with the current understanding of metabolism, enzymes
etc. He could only observe the physical symptoms, which were
baffling, and the individuals' own descriptions of how they felt more
craving as they drank more and went through those symptoms, which
seemed equally baffling. After much study the symptoms seemed
universal among the hopeless "problem drinkers" under his care and he
surmised that this reaction is abnormal, and yet repeated itself each
time the individual drank. Hence the conclusion that, for any such
individual, drinking produces an abnormal reaction.... there seemed to
exist a physical allergy to alcohol.
As such, for a description of the physical effect of booze on the
alcoholic's body and mind, it's rather an astute observation
considering the nature and understanding of science at that time.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
wrote:
> Yet the "Doctor's Opinion" was cited as the "best" description of alcoholim.
Not it wasn't. At least, not by me and I presume it's my post to
which you're referring. The doctor's opinion is only addressing the
PHYSICAL effects of alcohol on an alcoholic's person, which is only
half of the equation. On that description alone I'd not diagnose
anyone as alcoholic. If the physical reaction is the only thing
anyone gets I'd say just stop drinking. To understand the best
description of alcoholism, I also suggested a read of Chapter 3 in the
book "Alcoholics Anonymous" which, along with the "doctor's opinion",
is essential to gain an understanding of alcoholism.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
wrote:
> Being a Buddhist, there is no way I could turn my will and my life
> over to the care of God.
I don't understand Buddhism, so this question may seem odd, but can't
you turn YOUR will over to the CARE of your concept of Buddha?
> Even if I believed in a personal God with a
> long grey beard, which I certainly don't, I wouldn't know how to turn
> my will and life over to him.
> "If not God, substitute a chair...anything", I've heard some AAers say. Yeah, right.
Quite! I don't buy that one either.
I used to talk to the moon. "Help me stay sober and somehow work this
program to recover". I knew it couldn't hear me, but it seemed to
help anyway.
> I know, but knowing there are some good people at meetings, I approach
> AA with an I'll-take-what-I-want-out-of-the-program attitude, leaving
> the religiosity portions to others, and sort of turning off my ears
> when some person, usually a woman, goes off on one of those
> How-thankful-I-am-to-God spiels.
Sheesh! I can relate. I also hate how someone, usually female,
declares how GRATEFUL we ALL are. That was the fastest way to remove
any sense of gratitude from me! Fuck off and speak for yourself, not
for me.
I've since decided that such people often seem to be trying to
convince themselves that this is the case. Rather like my talking to
the moon, maybe it helps them. Those who have gratitude don't need to
talk about it too much, and those who don't will only feel alienated
by the declarations of those who claim they should. For me, gratitude
is a feeling and, as such, something I have no direct control over.
> I do hate it though when some AAer tells us, "if you haven't found God
> yet, you will". I don't need to hear that sort of condescension, it
> sounding like I'm some sort of child who has never given religion and
> God a thought.
I gave God lots of thoughts. That didn't get nor keep me either happy
or sober. Every time I walked into a church I found people trying to
find God. I literally found churches spine-chilling. It's only in
recovery that I decided that most of them are still looking for an
inner peace that I found as a result of taking different actions in
order to recover from alcoholism.
--
Blue Moon
Erwin
"Charles Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:e3jipuomrlj4sbuis...@4ax.com...
Where do you live, Charles? Anywhere near MA.?
--
Erwin
Tom G.
Fate worse than death...?? How so...? I was in/around A.A. for
twenty-five years before I decided to bother with the steps, or even
go so far as to read the Big Book. I had some pretty long stretches
of sobriety in that time, married my wife of thirty-two years that I met
through an A.A. contact, we had a kid that's almost grown, in general
had a pretty decent life... The only problem seemed to be my inability
to stay sober... I don't see how the above could be considered a
"fate worse than death". To the contrary, my life, had I not staggered
into A.A. would likely have been such...
I think some folk have problems with A.A. because they take
everything they hear/see around the fellowship so freakin' literally...
Part of taking what you need and leaving the rest is recognizing the
horseshit and leaving it where you found it....
Tom
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------------------
Tom Gosnell t...@thegoz.com
--------------Oooo-----------------------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) / To visit my Website...
\ ( (_/ Click there --> http://www.thegoz.com
\_)
rita
"Gregory Gadow" <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3D98A853...@serv.net...
>
> In order to "work the program", you must not only acknowledge the
existence of
> a "Higher Power" (Step 2), you must also declare your utter dependancy on
it
> (Step 3), partake in religious confession (Step 5), reiterate that only
God
> (who is no longer just an abiguous, amorphous "Higher Power") can cure
your
> "defects of character" (Step 6), beg this God to remove your
"shortcomings"
> (Step 7), continued with "prayer and meditation to improve [your]
conscious
> contact with God" and "praying only for knowledge of His will for us"
(Step
> 11) and, after the mandatory "spiritual awakening", becoming an evangelist
to
> spread the Good News of the 12-Step program to all heathen and unbelievers
who
> must be shown the munificence and loving-kindness of the God who turned
the
> unbelievers in to drunks in the first place!
>
> As an atheist, I am not allowed to take part, as I see more than half of
these
> steps as victimist nonsense and religious superstition. The 12 Steps are
> *exactly* the same kind of "break them down so we can control them"
techniques
> used by many cults. Teach them they are helpless. Teach them they can not
help
> themselves. Teach them that utter dependance on others is the only way
they
> can make things better. Teach them that if things do not get better, they
are
> not "working the program." Teach them that they must become ministers of
the
> "Truth" that we teach, that their "healing" is not complete unless they
bring
> in other members.
>
> Sorry people, but if you have a problem with alcohol or drugs or whatever,
you
> can't depend on some sky pixie to come down and make things all better.
Steps
> 1, 8, 9, and 10 -- along with a commitment to stop with the alcohol or
drugs
> or whatever -- is all you need. TAKE SOME FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR
> ACTIONS!
>
> > If you don't want to, then don't.
>
> Unfortunately, it is not that easy. AA -- religion and all -- is often
times
> MANDATED by United States courts: Attend AA for your drinking-related
crime,
> or go to jail. Secular alternatives, which often have track records at
least
> as good if not better, are not permitted. Twelve-step evangelists who
claim
> that their program is non-religious are simply deluded and liars; courts
> ordering atheists and other non-believers to take part in the cult is
grossly
> unconstitutional.
>
> -------------------------
Hear, hear!! - are you familiar with the four major court decisions
ruling that government-coerced 12-step participation is an Establishment
Clause violation? - not to mention the countless cases settled favorably out
of court (such as mine) that were based on them?
~Rita
rita
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:56:22 GMT, jhib...@twcny.rr.com (John Hibbert)
> wrote:
>
> > People on probation for alcohol-related crimes are often told to
> > attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
>
> and that reason is never "non-attendance at AA". Imprisonment happens
> as a result of breaking the terms of probation. If the probation
> terms stated "stand on your head each day", failing to do so would be
> a breach of probation. It's that breach which results in a jail
> sentence.
>
----------------------
And the federal courts (2nd, 4th, and 7th circuits) have ruled that
12-step attendance and participation cannot be a probation requirement. God
bless America!
~Rita
rita
> In article <3D98A853...@serv.net>, Gregory Gadow
> <tech...@serv.net> wrote:
>
> > Virtualoso wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3D987DC8...@serv.net>, Gregory Gadow
> > > <tech...@serv.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Henry Cotter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I often get this garbage from AA true believers that the 12 Steps
are
> > > > > "spiritual and not religious." I wonder how they can say this
with a
> > > > > straight face knowing full well that God is mentioned in *6* of
these
> > > > > Steps.
> > > >
not
> > > > take part (ie, you are not "working the program") if you reject a
> > > > fundamental belief in a supernatural entity.
> > >
> > > Sure you can take part, if you want to.
> >
> > I have been in 12 step programs: Ala-Teen, Al-Anon and OA. I speak from
> > several years' worth of experience.
> >
> > In order to "work the program", you must not only acknowledge the
existence of
>
> No "must" about it. Do so, if you wish. Don't, if you'd rather not.
>
> > As an atheist, I am not allowed to take part ... [snip]
>
> No "allowed" about it. Besides, how could you be "allowed to take part"
> in what you don't want or choose to? That's a self-contradictory
> paradox.
>
> > [snip] ...are *exactly* the same kind of "break them down so we can
control them" techniques
> > used by many cults. Teach them they are helpless. Teach them they can
not help
> > themselves. Teach them that utter dependance on others is the only way
they
> > can make things better. Teach them that if things do not get better,
they are
> > "Truth" that we teach, that their "healing" is not complete unless they
bring
> > in other members.
>
> control methods, yes.
>
> > Sorry people, but if you have a problem with alcohol or drugs or
whatever, you
> > ACTIONS!
>
> That would be exactly according to just how you "tell" other people it
> "must" be done, to be real and true?
>
> > > If you don't want to, then don't.
> >
> > Unfortunately, it is not that easy.
>
>
> > AA... is often times
> > MANDATED by United States courts: Attend AA for your drinking-related
crime,
> > or go to jail.
>
> breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> not attending AA.
>
Liar. I explained just the opposite. People have been punished
horribly (not only jail but losing jobs, losing professional licenses,
losing their CHILDREN!!) specifically for rejecting XA and its philosophy,
EVEN THOUGH THESE PEOPLE ARE SOBER. The government agencies doing the
coercion have told them "we don't care that you're abstaining, what we need
is for you to demonstrate that you have 'internalized [12-step] recovery
principles'." When the recipients of this government 12-step coercion
challenge this in federal court, they win. But not everyone has the energy
or the financial resources to fight.
You're a liar and/or delusional if you state that there is no 12-step
coercion.
~Rita
rita
"h2o4me2" <h2o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CP6m9.2025$lV3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "John Hibbert" <jhib...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:jhibbert-300...@192.168.1.100...
> > In article <300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com>,
> > virtu...@dot.com wrote:
> >
> > > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > > not attending AA.
> >
> > attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
> >
>
> The key word here is agreement.
>
And an "agreement" to something illegal or unconstitutional is invalid.
Read the decisions in Warner v. Orange County Probation Dep't (2nd Circuit).
They ruled that Warner's "agreement" to be involved in AA at his P.O.'s
whims was unconstitutional and therefore invalid.
Whatsamatter, you have an objection to someone being sober without AA??
Well shit, Warner's P.O' did. He never once accused Warner of drinking or
of violating one cotton-pickin' aspect of his probation -- the P.O. was
p.o.'ed (pardon the pun) simply because Warner was able to abstain while
totally rejecting 12-step philosophy.
~Rita
rita
> In article <SF4m9.62103$IL6.3...@news2.east.cox.net>, Markus
> <marku...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "Virtualoso" <virtu...@innocent.com> wrote in message
> > news:300920021257328695%>
> >
> >
> > > breaking certain laws.
> >
>
> Sure she did, at some length.
>
--------------------
Liar, I said just the opposite. You're either too dense, to obstinate,
or too delusional to understand what I said.
> > > No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > > not attending AA.
> >
> > Hmmm. Didn't the first Niece just do some jail time for non attendence?
>
> There is no jail sentence for not attending AA, of course.
>
------------------------
There is favoritism for those who DO attend and especially those who
parrot 12-steppisms, though. And such favoritism based on acceptance or
fegined acceptance of a religious ideology is unconstitutional.
~Rita
F.H.
>
> On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 05:28:02 GMT, "F.H." <disco...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Marty Capella wrote:
> >
> >> As an agnostic, how do you turn your will and your life over and to
> >> what?
> >
> >I admitted my life had become unmanageable because of booze. I
> >surrendered my compulsion to drink. I re(turned) control of my will and
> >my life to myself.
> >
> >> How do you admit to God, yourself, and another human being the
> >> exact nature of your wrongs?
> >
> >The nature of my wrongs was no secret. Lean to Buddhism. No
> >inclination to talk to God. Took what I needed and left the rest.
> >
> >> How do you have a spiritual awakening?
> >
> >My approach was to get a much bigger picture visa vi comparative
> >mythology. I'm not frightened by the belief systems of others.
> >
> >> And these AA types will be doing and saying the same thing years from
> >> now.
> >
> >Yes, they'll be Happy, sober and free and you'll be telling them that
> >you know better. Heh, ain't it just like a preacher.
>
> I think you misrepresent my position. I never told anyone that I know
> better.
Misunderstood perhaps. What's the point of knocking someone's belief
system if you have no alternative.
> Why is it that merely questioning basic tenets of the program
> elicits such snide responses?
I think you misrepresent my position. I choose the Buddhist leaning
perspective because I find the extreme polarization (on any topic)
unhealthy (for me). From my perspective extreme opposites often look
more similar than different. Falwell's got Satan, you've got AA. When
you were in AA, were you a thumper.
> I'm happy for you and your friends that you can take what you need and
> leave the rest, but for me that's dishonesty.
Dishonesty for you or for me also? If it's just for you what's keeping
you from moving on?
> After 16+ years in AA, I had to be honest with myself and decide what
> the hell I was doing in a religious/spiritual program if I'm an atheist.
> I got sick and tired of living a lie.
Divorce court is full of similar stories. Some folks desire a different
environment and move on gracefully. Others walk around with their fist
clenched in their pocket grousing about all the defects of their ex's.
Perhaps you still wedded to AA at some psychological level?
> I asked the questions above because I was curious about what lies you had to tell
> yourself that tweaked God into whatever it became.
Heh, see, if I don't see it your way, I'm lying to myself. Is that
paternalism? Maybe I just knew myself better going in and avoided
committing to parts that wouldn't work for me. I didn't "tweak" God at
all. My goal was to get sober, not to get religion. The fellowship at
AA was much more conducive than the surrogate family I had down at Butch
Cassidy's Saloon. I still don't hesitate to recommend AA because I give
people enough credit to think for themselves and find their own niche.
> But hey, that's just me.
And this is just me. My take on dishonesty at one time was much like
yours but it has evolved to the point that for me, wasting time jousting
with windmills in an imperfect world is the more obvious dishonesty.
Time waits for no man. Honesty requires facing ones self not fixing
others. If you think your time at AA was wasted, I hope you don't wake
up some day and find that you compounded the error.
F.H.
rita
***************************
Settlement Halts Mandatory Religious Substance Abuse Program at California
Youth Authority
The ACLU-NC, the Prison Law Office and the American Jewish Congress won
a settlement on May 12 in a lawsuit filed on behalf of wards at the Karl
Holton
School, a California Youth Authority facility in Stockton. The settlement
also covers a challenge to the program by teachers at the facility, who were
represented by the California State Employees Association.
As a result of the settlement agreement, the CYA will modify a
Twelve-Step substance abuse program that involves prayer and "conscious
contact with God" so that it no longer infringes on the religious freedom of
the incarcerated youth or the constitutional prohibitions against the
establishment of religion by the state.
"This case presented a pristine civil liberties issue," said ACLU-NC
attorney Margaret Crosby. "The state was forcing young people to attend
religious classes at a public school, and to adopt theistic concepts or
suffer
punishment.
"The Constitution protects people's right to join A.A. voluntarily, to
pray at meetings, and to believe that recovery requires a spiritual
awakening and guidance from a Higher Power. But the Constitution also
prohibits the government from coercing people to study, memorize and believe
religious ideas."
The CYA agreed to modify the Karl Holton School's substance abuse
program so that wards are no longer required to adopt or profess spiritual
beliefs, to rewrite curricular materials to delete references to God and
other religious concepts, and to make attendance at Alcoholics Anonymous
meetings voluntary rather than a mandatory part of the school's program.
ACLU-NC attorney Crosby, along with attorney Alison Hardy of the Prison
Law Office and Fred Blum of American Jewish Congress filed Mendes v.
California in
February in San Joaquin Superior Court seeking an injunction against the use
of the Karl Holton School's substance abuse program. Judge Terrence Van Oss
consolidated the Mendes lawsuit with Martinez v. California, a suit filed in
December 1994 by the California State Employees' Association on behalf of
teachers at the school who objected to teaching that belief in God and
reliance on prayer is necessary to overcome addiction.
"We are very pleased that this settlement has restored the line of
separation between church and state and the religious freedom of the
incarcerated youth," said attorney Blum. "The Karl Holton School's program
was based on acceptance of God. The wards were required to attend Alcoholics
Anonymous meetings and recite the Lord's Prayer. Five of the Twelve Steps
explicitly refer to God, and the mandatory workbooks are filled with
references to God."
The drug treatment program used at Karl Holton is called "Design For
Living" and is modeled on the Twelve Step system developed by Alcoholics
Anonymous.
Twelve Step programs are based on the belief that addiction is a spiritual
as well as a physical and emotional disorder, and may be overcome only by
reliance on a Higher Power, or God.
One incarcerated plaintiff refused to accept the religious principles
of the Twelve Steps, and told his teacher he did not believe in a Higher
Power. As a
result, he was labeled a "program failure," and expelled from the Karl
Holton School. He was then sent to a CYA segregation unit, the N.A.
Chaderjian School, where he was locked in his cell 23 hours a day and was
not allowed to participate in vocational and educational programs.
As part of the settlement, the CYA has agreed to inform the Youth
Offender Parole Board that this ward had religious objections to the Design
For Living
program and had expressed those objections to his parole agent. "A ward
should not be stigmatized as a 'program failure' for following his own
religous beliefs," said Hardy.
Karl Holton School has more than 400 wards, who are assigned there only
if they have less than one year to serve until their parole consideration
date. Wards
attended Design For Living Classes five days a week for six months, and
participation was mandatory. Their progress in mastering the Twelve Steps
was used to evaluate their eligibility for parole.
"The wards at Karl Holton School were forced to adopt the religious
beliefs of this program in order to gain the benefits of the Karl Holton
School's educational and vocational opportunities," said attorney Hardy of
the Prison Law Office. "One of our plaintiffs sincerely believes that he
must rely on his own inner strength, and not a higher power, to overcome
addiction. But he was
told that refusing to fully participate in the Design For Living program or
attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings may result in losing good behavior
points or being locked up in his cell."
One of the teacher plaintiffs, Harvey Martinez, noted, "We understand
the great need for substance abuse programs, particularly with youthful
offenders. But there are many alternatives that aren't based on religious
principles."
The court will retain jurisdiction over the issue for a year to insure
that the CYA complies with the terms of the settlement agreement.
****************************
Gregory Gadow
> In article <ppaipusu0hfe2kd2a...@4ax.com>, Marty Capella
> <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 04:02:05 GMT, "F.H." <disco...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >What he said is "that if "you're" (meaning himself it would seem) an
> > >atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem "you're" pretty
> > >much fucked."
> > >
> > >and
> > >
> > >"You're fucked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief."
> > >
> > >In order for this to be true, he would have to believe that AA (and his
> > >God or the highway interpretation) was the only option out there. ...
>
> > >What I'm saying is that as an agnostic I, and a number of my
> > >friends took what we needed and left the rest. ...
> >
> > As an agnostic, how do you turn your will and your life over and to
> > what? How do you admit to God, yourself, and another human being the
> > exact nature of your wrongs? How do you have a spiritual awakening?
>
> Germane questions. Of course, there's an entire chapter in the BB about
> just that.
Which addresses absolutely nothing of worth for someone who is atheist, who
does not accept the idea of a "higher power".
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The character of a nation and its dedication to its
core beliefs are not shown in times of peace, but in
times of conflict. As the United States now suppresses
the fundamental right to dissent and dismantles the
protections of due process, we show ourselves to be as
bad as, if not worse than, our enemies, for we show
ourselves to be hypocrites."
Gregory Gadow
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:37:19 -0400, "Melchizedek"
> <Melch...@as-if.com> wrote:
>
> >You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief!
> >Ever wonder why AA has worked all these years? (-;
>
> You're a good example of the type of gung-ho, unthinking person that
> often turns many atheists and agnostics off, in AA.
Unfortunately, Mel is one of several resident theist loons on alt.atheism.
The problem is, you are right: in my own experiences with AA and OA, his
kind was far, far too typical. "If you believe in God and get born again,
all your problems will vanish. If you do not, you will remain a drunk and
die in sin and burn in Hell for ever and ever and YOU WILL DESERVE IT!"
Gregory Gadow
Yes, but these were pretty recent rulings, and because of the way the Federal
court system works, only apply to those areas within the jurisdiction of the
2nd, 4th and 7th Circuits. In the 9th Circuit, which includes Washington,
Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Nevada and California, those rulings do not technically
apply and WILL NOT apply until either the 9th Circuit or the United States
Supreme Court issues such a ruling. Until then, attendance at religious based 12
Step programs remains a mandatory requirement in many jurisdictions if you want
to get probation on alcohol or drug related arrests.
Gregory Gadow
> "John Hibbert" <jhib...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:jhibbert-300...@192.168.1.100...
> > In article <300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com>,
> > virtu...@dot.com wrote:
> >
> > > No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> > > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > > not attending AA.
> >
> > Not so. People on probation for alcohol-related crimes are often told to
> > attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
> >
> > - jh
>
> The key word here is agreement.
Not so. In many jurisdictions, regular attendance at 12 Step meetings is a
prerequisite for even being considered for probation. Regular attendance at a
secular alternative is not accepted as equivalent.
Gregory Gadow
> "Virtualoso" <virtu...@innocent.com> wrote in message
> news:300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com...
>
> > No, as Rita explained, you only go to jail for getting convicted of
> > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > not attending AA.
> >
> ----------------------
>
> Liar. I explained just the opposite. People have been punished
> horribly (not only jail but losing jobs, losing professional licenses,
> losing their CHILDREN!!) specifically for rejecting XA and its philosophy,
> EVEN THOUGH THESE PEOPLE ARE SOBER. The government agencies doing the
> coercion have told them "we don't care that you're abstaining, what we need
> is for you to demonstrate that you have 'internalized [12-step] recovery
> principles'." When the recipients of this government 12-step coercion
> challenge this in federal court, they win. But not everyone has the energy
> or the financial resources to fight.
>
> You're a liar and/or delusional if you state that there is no 12-step
> coercion.
Which comes back to the conclusion that set this person off in the first place.
Gregory Gadow
> "Gregory Gadow"
> > Unfortunately, it is not that easy. AA -- religion and all -- is often
> times
> > MANDATED by United States courts: Attend AA for your drinking-related
> crime,
> > or go to jail. Secular alternatives, which often have track records at
> least
> > as good if not better, are not permitted. Twelve-step evangelists who
> claim
> > that their program is non-religious are simply deluded and liars; courts
> > ordering atheists and other non-believers to take part in the cult is
> grossly
> > unconstitutional.
> > --
> > Gregory Gadow
>
> Of course I'm a lying stepper when I explain to you that the rest of the
> world doesn't have court-MANDATED attendance at or to AA meetings.
In many jurisdictions, regular attendance at 12-Step meetings is a prerequisite
for probation on drug or alcohol related arrests. If you do not attend 12-Step
meetings -- no matter that you are now sober and not using -- you will be
summarily denied probation. If you stop attending 12-Step meetings while on
probation -- say, you've decided you've had enough of the religious
indoctrination, or your new sober self can now think rationally enough to
reject the victimist teachings of AA -- then you will be thrown in prison no
matter that you are now sober and no longer using. That sounds like a mandate
from the court to me.
> It appears we go voluntarily.
Aye, and during the Middle Ages, Jews were given the option of either
"voluntarily" converting or being executed.
> But if it makes your 'case' sound stronger, you
> could always use profanity and capitals to tick me off, couldn't you ?
I am pissed at AA, yes. I bought in to the "I am a victim. I am unable to help
myself. I must seek out a protector who will make it all better" mindset and it
has taken me quite a few years to break out of that victimist attitude. Like it
or not, you can help yourself and you have no need for God or any other
superstition to do it.
> Notwithstanding (jeez I love double-barreled words) that Buddhists, Jews,
> Greek Orthodox, Russian Icon smugglers, Asian bum-twaddlers and Sunni
> Moslems, who I may add are not MANDATED either, all attend AA and manage to
> stay sober in spite of us religious and non-religious folks.
But what about those of us who reject theism altogether? The issue is not
whether AA is a Christian organization (although the vast majority of my
experiences left me subjected to very high pressure Christian "turn or burn");
the issue is whether AA is a theist organization.
> There there
> now, say a few Hail Marys and all will be well :-))
Why should I think a 2000 year old virgin is going to be more real or more
effective that her murdered son or the sky pixie that raped the one and had
killed the other?
Gregory Gadow
> Hear, hear!! - are you familiar with the four major court decisions
> ruling that government-coerced 12-step participation is an Establishment
> Clause violation? - not to mention the countless cases settled favorably out
> of court (such as mine) that were based on them?
I have heard of them, but because of the way Federal courts work they
technically apply only the Circuit areas where the rulings have been made. I
know of one case in Washington where ordered attendance at 12 Steps was
challenged in court, but under pressure to prevent the 9th Circuit from having
jurisdiction, the (Clallam?) county court eventually reversed its order.
rita
> rita wrote:
>
> >
> > And the federal courts (2nd, 4th, and 7th circuits) have ruled that
> > 12-step attendance and participation cannot be a probation requirement.
God
> > bless America!
>
> Yes, but these were pretty recent rulings, and because of the way the
Federal
> court system works, only apply to those areas within the jurisdiction of
the
> 2nd, 4th and 7th Circuits. In the 9th Circuit, which includes Washington,
> Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Nevada and California, those rulings do not
technically
> apply and WILL NOT apply until either the 9th Circuit or the United States
> Supreme Court issues such a ruling. Until then, attendance at religious
based 12
> Step programs remains a mandatory requirement in many jurisdictions if you
want
> to get probation on alcohol or drug related arrests.
>
See my post about an ACLU/AJC action against government-coerced
12-stepping in "reform schools" in California. Unfortunately, due to its
being settled out-of-court, it set no 9th circuit precedent. That's too
bad. I think they could have won. But, having been through the court
system in a 12-step coercion lawsuit myself, I know how much pressure there
is to settle, and some of the major motivations for doing so.
~Rita
Al (Stuart)
"Marty Capella" <sop...@freesurf.fr.fuckspam> wrote in message
news:ppaipusu0hfe2kd2a...@4ax.com...> >Thomas Pain wrote:
> >>
> >> "F.H." wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Melchizedek wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > > You're fu*ked not only for your addiction but also for your
unbelief!
> >> >
Stay
> >> > where you are and whine, or move on and take responsibility for your
own
> >> > fate and let others make their own choices without the input from
your
> >> > unbelief.
> >>
> >> What he's saying is that the entire premise of drug and alcohol abuse
> >> recovery is religious brainwashing through AA philosophy.
> >
> >What he said is "that if "you're" (meaning himself it would seem) an
> >atheist or an agnostic and you have a drinking problem "you're" pretty
> >much fucked."
> >
> >and
> >
> >"You're fucked not only for your addiction but also for your unbelief."
> >
> >In order for this to be true, he would have to believe that AA (and his
> >else could he be "fucked?" I guess if you want to sit down and cry and
> >avoid "you're" problem while playing the big brother/intellectual role
> >to a bunch of people you don't even know it becomes a self fulfilling
> >prophecy. What I'm saying is that as an agnostic I, and a number of my
> >friends took what we needed and left the rest. Just like all the drunks
> >down on the boulevard all these anti AA types will be doing and saying
> >the same thing years from now. "You're" life. Makes for some
> >interesting epitaphs.
> >
> >F.H.
>
> As an agnostic, how do you turn your will and your life over and to
> what? How do you admit to God, yourself, and another human being the
> exact nature of your wrongs? How do you have a spiritual awakening?
>
> now.
They might be sober and happy too.
h2o4me2
"Kev" <kev...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:anbf1l$fuc$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>
> "h2o4me2" <h2o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:CP6m9.2025$lV3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > news:jhibbert-300...@192.168.1.100...
> > > In article <300920021257328695%virtu...@innocent.com>,
> > > virtu...@dot.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > breaking certain laws. No one actually goes to jail specifically for
> > > > not attending AA.
> > >
to
> > > attend AA meetings as part of their probation agreement.
> > >
> > > - jh
> >
> > The key word here is agreement.
> >
> >
> your sentence can we compromise and reach an "agreement". Yes, I'm quite
> sure they'd go for that.
>
> Brighton UK
>
>
It happens everyday in court rooms all across the US, usually between
prosecutors and the lawyers for the defendant.