KING HUBS -- LOUDEST ON THE MARKET?????
tim...@nonononospamjhu.edu
loudest I have EVER heard. King tech said "this is normal -- it's the
72 engagement teeth) --
anyone figured out how to quiet them down? Or is it just impossible to
sneak up on anyone now?
David L. Johnson
> I just got my first pair of king hubs, and the rear is probably the
> loudest I have EVER heard. King tech said "this is normal -- it's the
> 72 engagement teeth) --
They do make a racket...
>
> anyone figured out how to quiet them down? Or is it just impossible to
> sneak up on anyone now?
Not impossible. Just don't coast. I would also advise against coasting
when passing a horse or other large, easily spooked animal.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |
David Reuteler
: anyone figured out how to quiet them down? Or is it just impossible to
: sneak up on anyone now?
pedal?
--
david reuteler
reut...@visi.com
Mike S.
<tim...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu> wrote in message
news:3E6D0311...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu...
How the heck are you supposed to "sneak up" on someone by coasting??
Hammer! That's the way to "sneak up" on someone! By the time they realize
you're there, you're gone! None of this wussy coasting crap is gonna win
races!
Just like Eddy used to say: go ride 8 hours: the last one as hard as you can
go. THAT's how you win races. Modify for your fitness level...
Mike
Tsheer
news:3E6D0311...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu...
They are definitely loud, and don't get quieter with use. People are always
asking me what that noise is coming from my bike.
Alexander Kahn
I suspect the loud noise is intentional on King's part. They want you to
show off how much you just spent on your rear hub. ;)
--
Alexander Kahn
Ted Bennett
Just pack the mechanism with a good, heavy grease. It end up being just
as quiet as removing the pawls.
--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR
Saltytri
the service instructions, of course). That will lessen the buzz considerably.
Jens Kurt Heycke
Personally, I love that noise -- every ride sounds like a fishing
trip. A bit of quiet when you pedal....and then rrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee!
Caught one! OTOH, by brother refeuses to ride with me
if I coast.
--j
<tim...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu> wrote in message
news:3E6D0311...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu...
Dion Dock
magazines!
-Dion
<tim...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu> wrote in message
news:3E6D0311...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu...
Jan van Aardt
Get some American Classic hubs (140g front and 250g rear for disc!!) - they
are awesome: Lighter, cheaper, and very, very well made. And quiet as a
mouse...
Jan
<tim...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu> wrote in message
news:3E6D0311...@NONONONOSPAMjhu.edu...
Rick Warner
rock solid, easy to maintain, fast, etc. Just not for someone who likes
quiet hubs. Then again, the sound is awesome as you blast past someone
at 50MPH+ on a descent :)
- rick -
"Dion Dock" <inv...@bounce.com> wrote in message news:<3e6e1f30$1...@solnews.wv.mentorg.com>...
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> The magazine hype is based on functionality, not noise level. They
> are rock solid, easy to maintain, fast, etc. Just not for someone
> who likes quiet hubs. Then again, the sound is awesome as you blast
> past someone at 50MPH+ on a descent :)
The function of a freewheel is to give one way free rotation, it has
nothing to do with making noises. Noise is a gratuitous error in
design, the silent, cheap, and durable ratchet having been invented
long ago. I guess Hugi was the first to come back with a noisy
escapement for no advantage, its mechanism being no stronger than a
good ratchet while making loud noise and being heavier, not to mention
its high costs.
Sounding awesome seems to me more how mechanically silent one can
descend, I can put playing cards on clothes pins on my bicycle, as we
used to do as children to make motorcycle noises. I don't want to pay
money for such trivia.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA
carlos
no...the louder the better.
and don't add more Ring Drive grease....it'll deaden the sound but it also may
interfere with a positive engagement....botch that you'll be buying parts for
new hubs. and if you think the hubs were expensive, wait til you get tht bill
for the parts.
run them as they were intended to be run...
enjoy the loud.
c
Mike S.
"carlos" <blacksheepQstic.net> wrote in message
news:3e6ed1e9$0$32531$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
> i've got a loud king as well...i LOVE the sound.
>
> no...the louder the better.
>
> and don't add more Ring Drive grease....it'll deaden the sound but it also
may
> interfere with a positive engagement....botch that you'll be buying parts
for
> new hubs. and if you think the hubs were expensive, wait til you get tht
bill
> for the parts.
>
> run them as they were intended to be run...
>
> enjoy the loud.
>
> c
Is that anything like the "loud pipes save lives" argument that the Harley
riders use to justify their ear splitting pipes??
Mike
Qui si parla Campagnolo
,rock solid-agree
, easy to maintain-got the CK toolset??
, fast-fast hubs?
, etc-expensive
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Qui si parla Campagnolo
they
are awesome: Lighter, cheaper, and very, very well made.
Or Campagnolo
or shimano DuraAce-
Per Löwdin
> anyone figured out how to quiet them down?
Using the right lube may help a little
> Or is it just impossible to
> sneak up on anyone now?
No, just keep pedaling. I am on my second set. Don´t mind the free wheeling
sound, though to be honest it is only on really technical trails that it
makes any significant difference, ratcheting through rock gardens etc. For
anything else XTR hubs works as well.
Per
http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/fu99/MTB.html
RobInfo
old Shimano XT cassette with its "hollowed-out" spider cage for the larger
cogs was alot noisier than my current sram 9.0 cassette. I actually miss the
loud racheting (from a ringle hub in this case), I figure it was good for
alerting wildlife on the trail.
> anyone figured out how to quiet them down?
>
Belij3
I thought Campy hubs were loud also?
B
Dick Durbin
> bas-<< Get some American Classic hubs (140g front and 250g rear for disc!!) -
> they
> are awesome: Lighter, cheaper, and very, very well made.
>
> Or Campagnolo
I don't know, Peter. My Campy rear hub is mighty loud. Of course,
when someone comments on it, I just look down my nose at them and
snif, "What, you haven't heard a quality hub freewheel before." Then,
after I pull their pump from my spokes....
Dick Durbin
Nicholas
> ...Noise is a gratuitous error in design, the silent, cheap, and durable
> ratchet having been invented long ago...
Is the click of each ratchet tooth actually louder, or simply more
frequent? To my ear, it's the latter. The sound is an acquired
taste, at best, and I just keep pedaling.
> ...I don't want to pay money for such trivia.
More important: Chris King Cycle Group appears to be one of the more
environmentally and socially responsible companies around. There's
something to be said for a company that designs and manufactures its
products in house, and which assumes responsibility for both the
longevity of its product, and the environmental impact of its
manufacturing byproducts. Good customer service, too.
http://www.chrisking.com/company/comp_index.html
Nicholas Grieco
GoCycle
"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <david....@lehigh.edu> wrote in
message news:b4j2tq$a...@fidoii.CC.Lehigh.EDU...
Scic
>I thought Campy hubs were loud also?
It's the first thing I noticed on my new bike with Campy 10s hub.
Not just loud, but a harsh, cheap sounding click as well. Quite unlike a
Shimano hub which sounds like a good fly reel.
Is it easy to get into the guts of it and silence it?
Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.
Sig
Chicago
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Noise is a gratuitous error in design, the silent, cheap, and
>> durable ratchet having been invented long ago...
> Is the click of each ratchet tooth actually louder, or simply more
> frequent? To my ear, it's the latter. The sound is an acquired
> taste, at best, and I just keep pedaling.
Well, I should qualify that statement. The reason for all these "new"
freewheel ratchets is that the sprocket bodies are being made of
aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have a
conventional ratchet inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of
ratchets with more strength are being tried, some having no advantage.
The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum is
also too weak to carry sprockets that dig into the splined body up to
failure. OH! Why didn't someone test this or at least make a
calculation? This whole gram shaving at great cost is so stupid, it
reminds me of the drillium craze of the 1970's. Everything was drilled
full of holes, even things that could not work that way.
>> I don't want to pay money for such trivia.
> More important: Chris King Cycle Group appears to be one of the more
> environmentally and socially responsible companies around. There's
> something to be said for a company that designs and manufactures its
> products in house, and which assumes responsibility for both the
> longevity of its product, and the environmental impact of its
> manufacturing byproducts.
What you mean "designs its products in house" how else do you design
products? And what is "the environmental impact of its manufacturing
byproducts?"
> http://www.chrisking.com/company/comp_index.html
I think you got overwhelmed by the hype on that web site:
"This two building facility was entirely custom designed and built
to support all of our manufacturing processes (we do everything in
house) as well as our philosophies of work place design and near
fanatic environmental consciousness."
I guess that means they have an indoor toilet. To call this
philosophy is a stretch of the term. Webster's sees it otherwise:
"(1) : all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical
arts (2) : the sciences and liberal arts exclusive of medicine,
law, and theology <a doctor of philosophy>"
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Not to my ear, not like Hugi or CK, but I don't think the Ck sound is a
'problem'.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Shimano hub which sounds like a good fly reel.
Is it easy to get into the guts of it and silence it?
If it's 'silent' then it may not do it's job. You can open it up and add a
light layer of grease to the pawl teeth but if it makes noise it is doing it's
job.
<< Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.
Lots of gook on the pawls that may make one stick down and then break the
other? That will be an interseting ride-
Also two pawls rather than the Campagnolo's three-
Tauras
sounding off, at least no need to ring the bell when coasting downhill ;)
Tauras
http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030313085946...@mb-bg.aol.com...
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M-Gineering import & framebouw
>
> I have a Hadley rear hub, LOUD is what it is and can compete with any CK for
> sounding off,
if you want loud, you don't need much more than an empty shoepolish tin,
a rubber band and a clothespin. Saves $$$too;)
--
Marten
Tauras
spokes for under 100$ new, can't let deals like that go buy ;)
Tauras
http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/
"M-Gineering import & framebouw" <in...@M-Gineering.nl> wrote in message
news:3E70A87B...@M-Gineering.nl...
Scic
<< Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.
>Lots of gook on the pawls that may make one stick down and then break the
other? That will be an interseting ride-
I shouldn't have said silent...just very quiet, like a watch, much more so than
the road hubs. Ambient noise prevents me from hearing it when riding, unlike
the road hubs.
.>Also two pawls rather than the Campagnolo's three-
So that accounts for the louder clicks.
I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience.
But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
Sig
Chicago
Gary Smiley
undulates. Is this normal?
Alan
> Well, I should qualify that statement. The reason for all these "new"
> freewheel ratchets is that the sprocket bodies are being made of
> aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have a
> conventional ratchet inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of
> ratchets with more strength are being tried, some having no advantage.
>
800ft/lbs so surely it must have some advantages. The instant
engagement is beneficial for someone wanting to ratchet their way over
obstacles, logs, etc.
Has anyone compared the efficiency of rear hubs? I'd be curious to
see how it compares to Shimano or American Classic where the ratchet
disengages and is near silent.
alan
David L. Johnson
> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience.
> But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent. But
a true ratchet that is silent is a ratchet that is fouled with something,
and could easily fail.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies
richard
for choosing it is that it is EXTREMEMLY easy to get to the guts of it, put
on a layer of grease, re-assemble, and adjust!
sc...@aol.comnospam (Scic) wrote in news:20030313002545.06285.00000128@mb-
bj.aol.com:
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience. But,
>> like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
> I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent.
> But a true ratchet that is silent is a ratchet that is fouled with
> something, and could easily fail.
Not so. Since I still ride antique equipment, you cannot hear the
freewheel even when I raise the back end and give the rear wheel a
spin with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of my
bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour, both with the same
type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single
circumferential spring-wire. The advent of this pawl was the first of
many silent freewheels.
Before those, the Regina Gran Sport, with individual hair springs,
could be made silent by de-cambering the springs. This was a regular
exercise before the 1970's.
What most engineers who design these things today don't realise, is
that through elasticity of the parts, only one facet or pawl carries
the entire load for part of a rotation. A free body diagram can make
that unambiguously clear. For that reason Regina used a ratchet with
21 steps and two diametrically displaced ratchets to give 42 clicks
per revolution. The dual and triple pawl engagement ultimately fails
because its distributed load bearing relies on faultless zero
clearance bearing adjustment, something that is possibly true when new
but not thereafter.
I suspect the "engineers" in the bicycle business are not engineers
but always wanted to be a bicycle mechanic and "now I are one," as
they say. The public is the product test medium.
Jennifer Donleavy
wrote:
>I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of my
>bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour, both with the same
>type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single
>circumferential spring-wire. The advent of this pawl was the first of
>many silent freewheels.
>
>Before those, the Regina Gran Sport, with individual hair springs,
>could be made silent by de-cambering the springs. This was a regular
>exercise before the 1970's.
I have witnessed a silent freewheel, a Shimano single-speed freewheel,
which made me want to get rid of the excess gears just for the peace
and quiet!
I didn't understand from your description, though, what makes a
ratchet so quiet. Is it that the spring does not so forcefully push
the pawl into the steps? Is this why de-cambering the springs helped?
Or is it something about the pawl design? And what is a bifurcated
large pivot pawl and why did that help conserve the silence?
Finally, is there a safe way to make a contemporary shimano freewheel
or a contemporary freehub silent? I want to sneak up on animals.
Thanks!!
Jennifer D
David L. Johnson
> David L. Johnson writes:
>
>>> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience. But,
>>> like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
>
>> I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent.
>> But a true ratchet that is silent is a ratchet that is fouled with
>> something, and could easily fail.
>
> Not so.
I ahd misunderstood what you said about the silent freewheel earlier.
> Since I still ride antique equipment, you cannot hear the
> freewheel even when I raise the back end and give the rear wheel a spin
> with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of my
> bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour,
I have also used a number of Regina freewheels, but only a few Sun Tours.
I don't recall any being silent, except for the one Regina I re-built,
and that was not a total success.
both with the same
> type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single circumferential
> spring-wire.
this is the same design (with 3 pawls) now used by Campy. Mine is fairly
quiet, but that is because I used more grease than Campy put in at the
factory.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're
_`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly Tomlin
(_)/ (_) |
Tauras
"Jennifer Donleavy" <j9enn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jav37vcooj6factbv...@4ax.com...
Keep pedaling and don't coast to get close and it it doesn't workout at
least you're ready to blaze out of there ;)
Tauras
http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/
Nicholas
> ...The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that the sprocket
> bodies are being made of aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is
> insufficiently strong to have a conventional ratchet inside the sprocket
> carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more strength are being tried, some
> having no advantage.
Chris King offers a choice of drive shell: aluminum or stainless
steel.
http://www.chrisking.com/specs/classic_specs.html
> The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum is
> also too weak to carry sprockets that dig into the splined body up to
> failure...
Interesting- that's a mode of failure which is new to me. Is this
different for a cassette, as opposed to a set of individual sprockets
with spacers? Are the smaller sprockets more likely to cause a
problem than the larger?
> ...And what is "the environmental impact of its manufacturing byproducts?"
http://www.chrisking.com/pucks/index.html
> ...I guess that means they have an indoor toilet...
*chuckle!* And here's some more hype:
http://www.chrisking.com/asiamfg/index.html
I respect that this manufacturer actively addresses social, ethical,
and environmental considerations in it's own business practice.
Wouldn't mind seeing more companies make such an effort.
Nicholas Grieco
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> freewheel ratchets is that the sprocket bodies are being made of
> aluminum to save weight.
Not always. Campagnolo has aluminum freehub bodies but use a conventional pawl
system.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
Good luck taking a shimano freehub apart, it can be done but you may not get it
back together. As for a genuine pawl hub, either freewheel or freehub being
silent? Doubt that and it not be greased up, which is a particularly bad idea.
marten gerritsen
> Good luck taking a shimano freehub apart, it can be done but you may not get it
> back together.
Once you've managed a Regina d'Oro freewheel, everything else is easy
/Marten
David Damerell
>spin with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of my
>bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour,
I suspect this is a FAQ, but who currently owns the rights to the various
Sun Tour designs? It seems to me that a lot of their kit is very much in
demand still...
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience.
>>>> But, as Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.
>>> I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be
>>> silent. But a true ratchet that is silent is a ratchet that is
>>> fouled with something, and could easily fail.
>> Not so.
> I had misunderstood what you said about the silent freewheel earlier.
>> Since I still ride antique equipment, you cannot hear the
>> freewheel even when I raise the back end and give the rear wheel a
>> spin with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of
>> my bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour, both with the
>> same type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single
>> circumferential spring-wire.
> I have also used a number of Regina freewheels, but only a few Sun
> Tours. I don't recall any being silent, except for the one Regina I
> re-built, and that was not a total success.
More specifically, the large radius heel of the bifurcated pawl is
depressed on its rear edge by a circumferential spring wire that
encircles the stator, retains the pawls on assembly, and articulates
them into engagement. Since the change from freewheeling to drive is
a slow one, on the order of human response, it does not require a
lightning fast action (audible frequency speed) and a light weight
pawl cannot make much noise even when it rides over ratchet teeth.
It was this design that most steel freewheels/freehubs used until
recently.
> this is the same design (with 3 pawls) now used by Campy. Mine is
> fairly quiet, but that is because I used more grease than Campy put
> in at the factory.
I use 30W motor oil and you can't hear it click.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> ...The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that the
>> sprocket bodies are being made of aluminum to save weight.
>> Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have a conventional ratchet
>> inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more
>> strength are being tried, some having no advantage.
>> The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum
>> is also too weak to carry sprockets that dig into the splined body
>> up to failure...
> Interesting- that's a mode of failure which is new to me. Is this
> different for a cassette, as opposed to a set of individual
> sprockets with spacers? Are the smaller sprockets more likely to
> cause a problem than the larger?
Any individual sprocket that runs directly on the aluminum freehub,
especially larger ones, dig in and are hard to remove at times.
Robin Hubert
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:MWpca.934$eb1....@typhoon.sonic.net...
This also happens on certain stainless steel freehub bodies made in
California.
Robin Hubert
Nicholas
> > >> ...The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that the
> > >> sprocket bodies are being made of aluminum to save weight.
> > >> Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have a conventional ratchet
> > >> inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more
> > >> strength are being tried, some having no advantage.
Nicholas Grieco replies:
> > > Chris King offers a choice of drive shell: aluminum or stainless
steel.
JB continues:
> > >> The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum
> > >> is also too weak to carry sprockets that dig into the splined body
> > >> up to failure...
NG:
> > > Interesting- that's a mode of failure which is new to me. Is this
> > > different for a cassette, as opposed to a set of individual
> > > sprockets with spacers? Are the smaller sprockets more likely to
> > > cause a problem than the larger?
JB:
> > Any individual sprocket that runs directly on the aluminum freehub,
> > especially larger ones, dig in and are hard to remove at times.
Robin Hubert writes:
> This also happens on certain stainless steel freehub bodies made in
> California.
If you claim stainless steel drive shells are failing in the same
manner as aluminum ones, then you could be suggesting there is a more
fundamental problem in the design of the sprocket carrier.
What have you found other manufacturers doing that is different in
this area, to circumvent the problem you observe?
Nicholas Grieco
Robin Hubert
"Nicholas" <nichola...@att.net> wrote in message
news:c0734b72.03031...@posting.google.com...
Perhaps I was being unclear. I was referring to the Jobst's mention of
indentation of the carrier by the individual cogs digging into the material,
specifically aluminum ones, causing difficulty in removal of said cogs.
> What have you found other manufacturers doing that is different in
> this area, to circumvent the problem you observe?
Nothing.
Robin Hubert
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> Any individual sprocket that runs directly on the aluminum freehub,
>>> especially larger ones, dig in and are hard to remove at times.
>> This also happens on certain stainless steel freehub bodies made in
>> California.
> If you claim stainless steel drive shells are failing in the same
> manner as aluminum ones, then you could be suggesting there is a
> more fundamental problem in the design of the sprocket carrier.
> What have you found other manufacturers doing that is different in
> this area, to circumvent the problem you observe?
That means the stainless ones are not hardened sufficiently. Besides,
hardening stainless steels are more expensive. Case hardened carbon
or alloy steel shells can and have sustained these loads with no
damage. Next, we'll see titanium or even carbon fiber shells and the
"tifosi" will go gaga over them at $200 each.
A Muzi
>
> >>> Any individual sprocket that runs directly on the aluminum freehub,
> >>> especially larger ones, dig in and are hard to remove at times.
>
> >> This also happens on certain stainless steel freehub bodies made in
> >> California.
>
> > If you claim stainless steel drive shells are failing in the same
> > manner as aluminum ones, then you could be suggesting there is a
> > more fundamental problem in the design of the sprocket carrier.
>
> > What have you found other manufacturers doing that is different in
> > this area, to circumvent the problem you observe?
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:BDVca.1311$eb1....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> That means the stainless ones are not hardened sufficiently. Besides,
> hardening stainless steels are more expensive. Case hardened carbon
> or alloy steel shells can and have sustained these loads with no
> damage. Next, we'll see titanium or even carbon fiber shells and the
> "tifosi" will go gaga over them at $200 each.
Only $200? Uhh, that would be _cheaper_!
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971