Illinois Empties Death Row
Richard J
opening his one pus filled eye, wrote:
>
>
> We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here don't give a
> damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They just want convictions.
>
< excessive cross posting removed>
Hey sport, why don't you hold your breath until some Texas governor
pardons all death row inmates and see how blue you turn?
Teflon
Richard J
> "Strong Eagle" <stron...@motherearth.net> wrote in message
> news:3E203F7D...@motherearth.net...
>
>>citizen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>`The system has failed'
>>
>>We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here don't give a
>>damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They just want convictions.
>
>
> Ryan does not care about justice. If he did, he would have not been so
> eager to piss on the graves of scores of murder victims. Or piss off their
> families.
>
> Want to see something amazing? You will when Ryan comes up for
> re-election. He will not even make it through his party's primary.
>
>
>
>
>
He isn't coming up for re-election. He may be getting in position for a
national bid in two years, but there's already a Democratic governor
taking his place in three days.
Teflon
Richard J
>>
>
> Let's hope that all Conservative Republicans never make it through another
> primary! I applaud Gov. Ryan for his brave and just act - could he be the
> first example of a reformed conservative - didn't think they could be
> reformed? It just goes to show that the most unlikely of species can be
> rehabilitated...
>
> Dave
>
>
I doubt Ryan was ever a true conservative. I think that for years he
has, like many politicians, played the part expected of his to get him
elected. When he no longer could be elected in Illinois, he displayed
his true characteristics. I personally look for him to be a 'born
again' liberal Democrat sometime in the next two years, possibly soon
enough to run for a Congressional seat in a liberal district of Illinois.
Teflon
Dave (Wyoming Bantam)
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E20E417...@hotmail.com...
them will see the truth and the light and throw off the hatred and bigotry
of conservatism. Rehabilitation is possible, even in the worst of cases.
Best wishes
Dave
Richard J
Revealing one's true nature and rehabilitation are two different things,
Dave. The guy is a politician, and possibly a crook as well.
Politicians do anything to get elected, including posing as a
conservative. To tell the truth, I really don't care what Ryan is or
was. IMO, he increased the severity of the punishment by putting most
of them in cages until they die of disease or old age. I think he
should have reviewed each case individually, and commuted the ones where
he had doubts. Instead, he gave a blanket commutation. THAT's not
just, just a lazy man's way.
Teflon
Wil...@cityside.net
"Dave (Wyoming Bantam)" wrote:
There is hope then for other conservatives. There is always hope that all of
> them will see the truth and the light and throw off the hatred and bigotry
> of conservatism. Rehabilitation is possible, even in the worst of cases.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Dave
Yes Dave there is hope. Even Ryan may be rehabilitated before he comes out of
PRISON.
Wil...@cityside.net
Wesley Lowe wrote:
Actually, it has nothing to do with "courage"! With such an act, he hopesWell posted Wesley. The only thing Ryan is doing is saving his rotten butt when HE goes to prison.
to
direct attention away from his corruption and scandal infested governorship!
But it will obviously backfire and lead to not only an increase in the
murder rate, but boost public support for the DP! Indeed, the last Gallup
poll rated support for the DP from the upper 60s to the lower 70s this past
year. How much you want to bet that this latest incident will boost support
to at least 75% in the next poll?And only a lying pro murderer fanatic like you would be pleased by Ryan's
reprehensible act, being so immoral and twisted that the only time you
assign worth to innocent lives is when they serve as sheilds to preserve
murderers! How manipulative and corrupt is that?And if Ryan is so dedicated to protecting the innocent, then why is it that
he has done nothing to eliminate the inhumane parole and probation release
policies which result in the needless injury and slaughter of thousands of
innocent people each year, including in his state? Where is his compassion
in honoring the previous victim's suffering and in protecting future victims
from repeat offences? It's a scam, I tell you! A manipulative scam!
Weslsy, I don't cross post.
The Lone Weasel
news:3e203d2a...@news.io.com:
> Chicago Tribune
> January 11, 2003, 9:20 AM CST
>
> Ryan condemns injustice, pardons 6; paves the way for sweeping
> clemency
>
> By Steve Mills and Christi Parsons
> Tribune staff reporters
>
> Update: Gov. George Ryan will issue a blanket clemency to all
> inmates on Illinois' Death Row, a spokesman for the governor
> confirmed today.
Governor Ryan has the statesmanship to make a humane decision and
put it into action, unlike the great majority of elected officials
in the United States.
In the process of not providing state-sanctioned murder of innocent
persons, Governor Ryan saves the taxpayers of Illinois billions of
dollars while keeping the persons supposedly guilty of capital
crimes safely out of society until they can exonerated by DNA
evidence or other means, or not. If they are never officially
exonerated, even if they happen to be innocent, at least they aren't
murdered by the people of Illinois.
Let's see if any other governors have the simple decency to keep it
going.
> Saying he wanted to correct a "manifest injustice," Gov. George
> Ryan on Friday pardoned four Death Row inmates and laid the
> groundwork for an unprecedented act of clemency by a U.S.
> governor.
>
> Although aides said Ryan continued to struggle late Friday with
> whether to commute the sentences of all remaining 156 Death Row
> inmates, sources said he ordered that letters be delivered
> overnight notifying victims' families that Ryan would in fact
> grant a blanket commutation.
>
> In the two-page letter, Ryan told family members how difficult it
> had been to reach the decision to grant blanket commutations, but
> he said it was the only way to prevent an innocent person from
> being executed--his greatest concern. Ryan closed the letter with
> the words, "May God bless you."
>
> Ryan, who leaves office Monday, loaded his Friday announcement of
> the pardons with indications he would commute the death sentences
> to life in prison without parole. He pointed out in a speech that
> the state Constitution provides a governor broad powers. He noted
> as well that life in prison is a stark existence and that inmates
> "have no freedom."
>
> The majority of Ryan's speech, though, focused on the
> pardons--based on innocence--to four men who together have spent
> nearly 60 years on Death Row and whose cases are linked by
> allegations of torture by Chicago police. He said the cases "cry
> out to be fixed."
>
> "Today, I shall be a friend to Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard,
> Aaron Patterson and Leroy Orange," Ryan said, naming the four
> prisoners, in his address at DePaul University law school in
> Chicago. "Today, I am pardoning them of crimes for which they were
> wrongfully prosecuted and sentenced to die."
>
> "The system has failed for all four men," he said. "And it has
> failed the people of this state."
>
> Ryan also pardoned Gary Dotson, who was convicted of a 1979 rape
> but later exonerated by DNA testing, and Miguel Castillo, who was
> released two years ago after spending more than 11 years in prison
> for murder when jail records showed he was in custody when the
> crime was committed.
>
> The words brought tears of joy to the families of the inmates and
> strong condemnation from prosecutors across the state and the
> victims' families.
>
> Sitting in the DePaul audience and waiting for Ryan to arrive,
> Hobley's sister Robin read a prepared copy of the governor's
> speech and began to cry as she discovered her brother would be set
> free.
>
> "I've read so many horrible [court] transcripts over 16 years. I
> don't believe what I'm reading," she said. "Oh, Gov. Ryan, thank
> you. ... It seems just like Christmas and New Year's and a
> birthday all wrapped up into one."
>
> Patterson's mother, Joanne, searched a copy of Ryan's speech for
> words about her son and began to shake as she found them. She said
> the speech confirmed what she had hoped and prayed for over the
> last week as Patterson's name was floated as a likely candidate
> for a pardon.
>
> "Now that I read this," she said, "everything is really just
> fine."
>
> Cook County State's Atty. Richard Devine called the pardons
> "outrageous and unconscionable."
>
> "All of these cases would have been best left for consideration by
> the courts which have the experience, the training and the wisdom
> to decide innocence or guilt," Devine said at a Friday night news
> conference. "Instead, they were ripped away from the justice
> system by a man who is a pharmacist by training and a politician
> by trade."
>
> Devine said Ryan "jumped into bed with the defense bar," accusing
> him of not seeking information from prosecutors to get their side
> of the cases. He refused to say whether he believed the four had
> been tortured by police.
>
> Devine also said he would have to review the governor's action
> before deciding whether to consider the four cases closed or to
> reopen the investigations.
>
> "By his actions today the governor has breached faith with the
> memory of the dead victims, their families and the people he was
> elected to serve," he said.
>
> Ollie Dodds, whose daughter was one of seven victims of a 1987
> arson fire that sent Hobley to Death Row, said the pardons left
> her tired and heartbroken.
>
> "It's put me in a painful spirit," said Dodds, who still believes
> that Hobley set the fire that killed Johnnie Mae Dodds. "I just
> couldn't believe what he was saying. If he had lost a daughter or
> a son in that fire, I bet he wouldn't have done it."
>
> Gayla Ridgell Redmond, whose father was murdered in 1984 in the
> case that sent Howard to Death Row, said she was struggling with
> her emotions.
>
> "I guess I have mixed feelings about it," she said. "I'm not an
> advocate of the death penalty, so I wasn't looking for him to be
> executed," she said. "But for him to be totally pardoned of the
> crime--I can't say I'm too happy."
>
> Redmond, who lives on Chicago's Far South Side, said she was
> comforted that Howard has to serve another 18 years for other
> convictions--cases that Ryan said also are tainted.
>
> Still, Redmond said nothing would "bring my dad back."
>
> Paul Dengel, Howard's attorney on his death penalty case, said he
> would begin to investigate that case as well in the hopes of
> obtaining Howard's release.
>
> Gov.-elect Rod Blagojevich, who said he backs the death penalty in
> "clear-cut and extreme cases," urged Ryan not to grant the blanket
> clemency Saturday.
>
> "The goal here is to serve justice, and I oppose blanket
> clemencies and blanket pardons," Blagojevich said. "I hope he
> reviewed all those cases carefully and he reached his conclusions
> based on each individual fact pattern in each case. If he did that
> and he made a judgment that justice will be served by that, then I
> have no quarrel with that."
>
> But Ryan said it was the system--from prosecutors and police to
> judges and defense attorneys--that had failed.
>
> He said Chicago Police Cmdr. Jon Burge and detectives working for
> him in the former Burnside Area headquarters on the South Side
> routinely tortured suspects as they sought to obtain murder
> confessions.
>
> He said justice is too often subverted by prosecutors hiding
> behind procedural rules to keep judges or juries from hearing all
> the facts in a case.
>
> And he said defense lawyers often made colossal failures. In the
> case of Orange, Ryan said his attorney never raised his claim that
> police electric-shocked him.
>
> Most of the cases, he said, relied heavily on dubious confessions.
>
> "In some way I can see how rogue cops, 20 years ago, could run
> wild. I can see how, in a different time, they perhaps were able
> to manipulate the system. What I can't understand is why the
> courts can't find a way to act in the interest of justice," Ryan
> said as the crowd of students and family members broke into
> applause.
>
> Ryan even cited little-known evidence in some cases, such as a
> sworn affidavit obtained by Northwestern University journalism
> students from a man who said another man confessed to being
> involved in the murders for which Patterson was found guilty and
> condemned.
>
> Police Supt. Terry Hillard, while not directly laying blame for
> the pardons on Burge, nevertheless made clear that Burge's actions
> had "disgraced the integrity and honor" of the Chicago Police
> Department and led to his firing. He noted the department was
> cooperating with a special prosecutor's investigation into the
> torture allegations.
>
> Flint Taylor, who represented Patterson and has worked for years
> to prove the allegations against Burge, said the pardons supported
> the charges of misconduct against Burge as well as against county
> prosecutors. He said the pardons should fuel the inquiry by the
> special prosecutor, not slow it.
>
> "It would be shocking if people say this takes care of it," Taylor
> said. "There's still a tremendous amount of unfinished business.
> There are people who haven't been released. ... And what about the
> people who put them there."
>
> Burge, reached at his home in Florida, declined to comment.
>
> Ryan said his office's three years of study of the death penalty
> and its review of the cases of the state's 160 Death Row inmates
> had convinced him that Hobley, Patterson, Howard and Orange were
> innocent.
>
> He was equally convinced, he said, the legislature had failed in
> its duty to pass reforms recommended by the blue-ribbon commission
> of prosecutors, defense attorneys, former judges and other experts
> he appointed to study the death penalty when declaring a
> moratorium on executions in January 2000.
>
> "What does it take?" he said. "Now we can say the number of
> wrongfully convicted men is not 13 but 17. And I would ask, will
> that be enough?"
>
> Some lawmakers said the governor's actions, particularly if he
> grants a blanket commutation, could hurt chances for reform.
>
> "If the governor decides to commute all of them, I think reform is
> dead in its tracks," said state Sen. Peter Roskam (R-Wheaton), the
> architect of one conservative reform package. "If he does that,
> the dynamic changes."
>
> DuPage County State's Atty. Joe Birkett also predicted the chances
> for reform would die because the public would react angrily to any
> mass commutation.
>
> "A lot of people will be outraged, especially after they look at
> the facts of these cases," Birkett said Friday. "Most of these
> cases are not close. In the overwhelming majority, there was no
> question of guilt."
>
> Ryan singled out Birkett's office for particular criticism. He
> noted angrily that although former Death Row prisoners Rolando
> Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez have been exonerated of the rape and
> murder of 10-year-old Jeanine Nicarico, DuPage prosecutors have
> "to this day, to this minute" failed to charge Brian Dugan in
> connection with the case.
>
> Dugan has offered his confession in exchange for being spared the
> death penalty, and his prosecutors say his DNA connects him
> Jeanine's murder.
>
> "The governor is obviously not a lawyer, but a pharmacist, not
> aware of the rules of law," said Birkett. "When I am satisfied
> that there is enough evidence [against the suspect], I will seek
> an indictment."
>
> Hours after the speech, Hobley and then Patterson walked out of
> Pontiac Correctional Center.
>
> Hobley was met by his wife, Kim, a law school graduate who married
> him while he was on Death Row and had only shared a kiss each time
> he arrived in the prison visiting room and a kiss when leaving.
>
> She said she knew Hobley had not set the fire that killed seven
> people, including his wife and infant son.
>
> "When you meet, you know right away this man is innocent," she
> said. "I believed that God didn't save him from that fire just to
> kill him."
>
> The release of Orange, convicted in the 1985 stabbing deaths of
> four people and a fire set to cover up the murders, was delayed
> two hours in Cook County Jail. He walked into the arms of family
> shortly after 5 p.m.
>
> Orange's lawyers had faxed the governor's pardon early in the
> afternoon to the jail, but officials in the sheriff's office said
> prosecutors had demanded the lawyers produce an original letter
> with an original signature. Orange was being held in the jail to
> attend a court hearing on his case.
>
> Patterson, convicted of a 1986 double murder in the South Chicago
> neighborhood, left prison to cheers from the other men on Death
> Row and requests that he help bring their cases to the governor's
> attention.
>
> But before he was free, he was told he would be on supervised
> release for three years and might even have to spend part of it on
> home-monitoring.
>
> "They dropped the bombshell on me right before I came out," he
> said.
>
> Taylor, Patterson's attorney, said he believed Patterson had
> served his time while on Death Row and should be free and clear of
> any crimes committed in the past.
>
> Riding in a car with Appolon Beaudouin Jr., an investigator with
> the State Appellate Defender's Office who has worked on the
> Patterson case for several years, Patterson said he was stunned
> that hours earlier he had been on Death Row.
>
> "For the first time," said Patterson, "I think I'm speechless."
>
> Tribune staff reporters Art Barnum, Mickey Ciokajlo, Jeff Coen,
> Shia Kapos, Maurice Possley, David Mendell and David Heinzmann
> contributed to this report.
>
>
>
>
>
>
The Lone Weasel
> citizen wrote:
>
>> `The system has failed'
>> Chicago Tribune
>> January 11, 2003, 9:20 AM CST
>>
>> Ryan condemns injustice, pardons 6; paves the way for sweeping
>> clemency
>>
>> By Steve Mills and Christi Parsons
>> Tribune staff reporters
>>
>> Update: Gov. George Ryan will issue a blanket clemency to all
>> inmates on Illinois' Death Row, a spokesman for the governor
>> confirmed today.
>>
> We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here
> don't give a damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They
> just want convictions.
That's exactly right. Here in Tulia we still have 13 of our
neighbors stuck in Texas prisons, after having their constitutional
rights to due process and competent legal representation infringed
by an out-of-control racially motivated drug sting operation.
If you can, please donate a few dollars to the NAACP Legal Defense
Fund or Firends of Justice.
_________________
http://www.naacpldf.org/whatsnew/wn_doc_ldf_justice_tulia.html
If you would like to further support LDF's work to bring justice to
Tulia, you may send a donation to:
NAACP Legal Defense Fund
Department T
99 Hudson Street, Suite 1600
New York, NY 10013
Please write on the check that this money is for LDF's efforts in
Tulia, TX.
Thank you for your support.
For more information, you may contact us at: tu...@naacpldf.org
____________________________________
Friends of Justice
Alan Bean, Executive Director: 806-995-3353
Thelma Johnson, President: 806-995-4399
Friends of Justice
507 N. Donley Ave.
Tulia TX 79088
Fax: 806-995-3353
Email: nand...@amaonline.com
Friends of Justice is a 501(c) 3 non-profit organization.
All donations are tax deductible.
The Lone Weasel
news:y8%T9.240$yH1.17...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
>
> "Strong Eagle" <stron...@motherearth.net> wrote in message
> news:3E203F7D...@motherearth.net...
>> citizen wrote:
>>
>> > `The system has failed'
>>
>> We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here
>> don't give a damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They
>> just want convictions.
>
> Ryan does not care about justice. If he did, he would have not
> been so
> eager to piss on the graves of scores of murder victims. Or piss
> off their families.
>
> Want to see something amazing? You will when Ryan comes up for
> re-election. He will not even make it through his party's primary.
Yeah, Governor Ryan made a humanitarian decision based on principles
contained in our Bill of Rights. He knows he'll probably be
punished by rightwing propagandists begining with Rush Limbog and
seeping down through the rightwing fake administration to a church
near you. Looks like Ryan didn't want the state-sanctioned murder
of untold innocent lives on his conscience...
Of course, that never troubled George Bush. When he got appointed
resident of the White House he left hundreds of dead for the state
of Texas to sort out. The boy doesn't need a conscience. Pappy
Bush bought him a blanket pardon from Jerry Falwell.
______________
TEXAS GOOD EXAMPLE OF DEATH PENALTY INJUSTICE
Paul Duggan of the Washington Post, May 12, 2000
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52193-2000May11.html
With few public defender offices in Texas, most indigent defendants
must rely on court-appointed lawyers. Interviews with lawyers and
other experts, as well as a review of 16 Texas death penalty cases,
revealed instances in which lawyers in capital trials slept though
key testimony, failed to file crucial legal papers correctly or on
time, or had been cited for professional misconduct repeatedly in
their careers.
As governor, Bush has relatively little authority over death penalty
cases--for example, he does not have the power to impose a
moratorium on executions, as Illinois Gov. George Ryan (R) did in
February. Last year, however, Bush vetoed a bill that its supporters
said would have improved the quality of legal representation for
poor defendants. He has defended the prerogative of elected judges
to appoint lawyers for indigent capital defendants, despite evidence
that some appointments have been tainted by patronage. And in 1995,
he signed a law hastening the death penalty appeals process, leaving
condemned prisoners even more dependent on court-appointed
attorneys.
"At every stage of the death penalty process, Texas is far below any
measure of adequacy in terms of the legal representation it
provides," said Elisabeth Semel, head of the American Bar
Association's Washington- based Death Penalty Representation
Project.
Since Jan. 17, 1995, the day Bush took office, 127 prisoners have
been put to death in Texas, an average of one execution every two
weeks for 5 1/2 years. As of today, 465 inmates, almost all of them
indigent, are awaiting lethal injections. No one has yet produced
incontrovertible evidence of an innocent person being put to death.
However, at least one prisoner has been executed during Bush's
tenure despite the fact that his attorney slept through significant
parts of his trial. And besides Burdine, at least two other death
row inmates whose lawyers snoozed in court are seeking new trials.
"I'm confident that every person who has been put to death in Texas
under my watch has been guilty of the crime charged and has had full
access to the courts."
- Texas Governor George W. Bush, 2.12.2000
The Lone Weasel
news:RainbowChristiannohate-1101031915180001@h-69-3-217-
179.chcgilgm.
covad.net:
> In article <y8%T9.240$yH1.17...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
> "Tim Drake" <t...@gotham.com> wrote:
>
> -"Strong Eagle" <stron...@motherearth.net> wrote in message
> -news:3E203F7D...@motherearth.net...
> -> citizen wrote:
> ->
> -> > `The system has failed'
> ->
> -> We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here
> don't give a -> damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They
> just want convictions. -
> - Ryan does not care about justice. If he did, he would have
> not been so -eager to piss on the graves of scores of murder
> victims. Or piss off their -families.
>
> That's right..let's just kill folks to make the "families feel
> better"...it doesn't matter if we kill the tight people are
> executed, as long as the families see somebody pay/
> -
> - Want to see something amazing? You will when Ryan comes up
> for -re-election. He will not even make it through his party's
> primary.
>
> Npw here is a perfect example of someone not knowing what in
> heaven he is talking about!!
>
> Ryan wpn't be coming up for "re-election"..he is leaving office
> this Monday.
>
> Now if you were unable to get this little fact correct, it is
> highly doubtful you have a clue as to why Ryan did what he did.
Governor Ryan knows he'll be "killfiled" by the Republican Party
from now on. They can't say it didn't take the courage of his
convictions to at least save the lives of these people, knowing
there's a good chance that many of them are innocent of any capital
crime.
On the other hand, the fake president is cheered for murdering
blacks, Hispanics and other poor folks in Texas. If Bushbaby had a
conscience he'd have to know he promoted state canctioned murder
based on race or economic class.
crosem
executed in Texas was not guilty...
"The Lone Weasel" <lonew...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9301813BCD162l...@140.99.99.130...
weaver...@organics.com
says...
Capital punishment is the biggest expression of big government tyranny. But
fake-conservatives love killing people. They think it will make their fear go
away.
But the only way to have a peaceful and stable society is to create a society
dedicated to economic justice.
The more disproportionate the distribution of wealth and property, the more
those in power must create a police state to protect what they have stolen from
the commons.
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part
of the members are poor and miserable.
(Adam Smith)
Annie
Neal Atkins
<lonew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Update: Gov. George Ryan will issue a blanket clemency to all
>> inmates on Illinois' Death Row, a spokesman for the governor
>> confirmed today.
>
>Governor Ryan has the statesmanship to make a humane decision and
>put it into action, unlike the great majority of elected officials
>in the United States.
I doubt it. He was just looking for something that could be put into
the history books about his junta that overshadowed the graft and
corruption (selling of commercial drivers licenses to name just one).
Neal Atkins
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty. Don't know who the other one is.
Richard J
> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>
Oh, there's always assertions. What there is not is proof of an
innocent being executed in Texas.
Teflon
John Spragge
"Neal Atkins" <nat...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3e21c1cb...@news-server.austin.rr.com...
> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty. Don't know who the other one is.
I wouldn't classify any verdict based on the testimony of a single
eyewitness as beyond doubt. We can say, with considerable confidence, that
Shaka Sankofa (aka Gary Graham) engaged in a very nasty cocaine-fuelled
rampage of armed robberies accompanied by extreme violence. And I do not
have a lot of sympathy for him, or for his protestations of innocence. But
that doesn't change the record: the courts convicted him of the critical
offence, the murder for which the state executed him, based on a single
eyewitness. Given the research on eyewitness testimony, and the limits
thereof (http://www.sado.org/19cdn12.htm#19cdn12a), the verdict on Gary
Graham certainly deserves the same quotes partisans of capital punishment
sometimes place around the list of acquittals published by the Death Penalty
Information Centre.
The record of unjust or questionable convictions in capital cases provides a
compelling (though not the most compelling) argument against capital
punishment. It certainly provided the rationale for Governor Ryan's actions.
Specifically, the courts have repeatedly cited the executive power of
clemency as a safeguard against miscarriages of justice. During or just
before Governor Ryan's term, investigations uncovered cases of confessions
extracted by torture (these formed the basis for the governor's outright
pardons). In case where a public official repeated provided damning
testimony in a capital case, then recanted and admitted he had lied, a jury
refused to convict him or anyone else of perjury or any other offence. The
state had executed twelve offenders, and had to release thirteen more on the
grounds of factual innocence.
Given that record, I cannot blame Governor Ryan for coming to the conclusion
that the system suffered so many fatal flaws that only a blanket commutation
could solve the problem.
Mike Smith
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:29:11 GMT, dans l'article <3e21c1cb...@news-server.austin.rr.com>, Neal Atkins <nat...@austin.rr.com> a dit ...
>
>>>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
>>>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>>>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>>>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
>
>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>
>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
Are you a liar or are you an imbecile?
From http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/graham.htm :
"Bobby Lambert was shot in a dimly lit parking lot.
False. Bernadine Skillern, the unwavering eyewitness had no problem
identifying Graham. Stated Skillern, "You can see very clearly." Other
witnesses and three policemen testified that there was adequate
lighting to make an identification. Wilma Amos testified that the
lighting "was good." (Trial Testimony.) Furthermore, GGC often state
that there were only two lights in the entire parking lot. Half-Truth,
Misleading. What GGC doesn't say is that there were at least two light
posts with a total of four lights and that all four lights were close
to the murder scene. Two of the lights were within two parking spaces
of the murder and thereby directly illuminated the murder scene (crime
scene photos). Furthermore, Ms. Skillern's car was facing the murder
scene from 26-37 feet away and her car's headlights further
illuminated the murder scene and Graham's face. Graham, then walked
within 10 feet of Ms. Skillern. (Crime scene evidence and trial
testimony.)"
>
>Seven (count 'em, _seven_ !) other witnesses who saw the assaillant, swore
>that it was _not_ Mr Graham. They all swore that the murderer was shorter
>than Bobby Lambert, who was 5'6". Mr Graham was taller. The day after the
>offence, the one eyewitness who subsequently identified Mr Graham, said
>that she could not be sure, and that the 'perp' (sic) had a thinner face,
>and a darker complexion that Mr Graham.
Are you a liar or are you an imbecile?
From the above link:
"Graham was convicted and sentenced (2) to death by the questionable
(3) identification of a single witness who saw the suspect for a
"split second" (4) from a distance of approximately 35-44 feet. False
5. In her second viewing of mug shots (Graham's picture wasn't part of
the first photo spread.) Ms. Skillern immediately picked out Graham,
noting that his features, with the exception of skin tone, were the
same. The shade of the skin in the photograph wouldn't allow her to
make a positive identification and she stated she would need to see a
live "line-up". She made an immediate, unequivocal, positive
identification of Graham at the line up(F3). (Police and Trial
Testimony.) Ms. Skillern testified that she saw the killer "full-face"
three times, for 2 to 3 seconds, and had observed him for 60 to 90
seconds(F4), at distances ranging from a car length (10 feet) to 33 to
44 feet(F5). Graham was found guilty on the testimony of Ms. Skillern,
but was sentenced to death because of the testimony of ten (10)
additional Graham victims, other witnesses and the careful
consideration of 12 jurors who felt that Gary Graham was a vicious
killer who posed a continuing threat to society(F2). (Trial testimony
and jurors statements.)
"For the people to say I'm tragically mistaken is an insult because I
saw that man (Graham) and nothing will ever change that. He knows that
I saw him (kill Bobby Grant Lambert) and I know that I saw him, and
the Lord knows. I am not responsible for Mr. Graham's fate. He is."
(Bernadine Skillern, Houston Post, August 15, 1993.)"
And :
"Four other crime scene witnesses did not identify Graham as the
gunman and stated that the gunman was approximately 5'5" tall. False
6. Four out of the original five witnesses described the killer as a
young, thin black male, from medium height to tall. Graham, a 17 year
old black male, was 5'9", slim, 140-150 lb. Skillern stated he was
5'9" to 6', slender, 145 to 150 lbs. Dan Grady said he was tall and
slim. Ron Hubbard said he was 5'5" to 5'6". Leodis Wilkerson described
the killer as shorter than Lambert. Lambert was 5'9". According to GGC
flyers, the killer must have been 5'8". Wilma Amos told police he was
of medium height but that she couldn't remember how the killer looked.
Incredibly, twelve years later, in April 1993, after speaking to The
Texas Resource Center, Amos says it wasn't Graham and that the killer
was 5'5". In videotaped testimony, aired at a mock(ery) trial in
August, 1993, orchestrated by The Texas Resource Center, Ms. Amos
stated that, "He (the killer) was no taller than me." Amos is 5'2".
(The Texas Resource Center Videotape.) False 7 (see previous police
statement). Amos also stated that, "...when I saw him standing there
with that gun, I just closed my eyes." "...he just stopped for a
second not far from the back of my car and then he took off..." (Trial
and Videotape.) "
>
>When arrested, Mr Graham had a pistol of the same calibre that had killed the
>victim, Bobby Lambert, but ballistic evidence _conclusively eliminated_ Mr
>Graham's firearm as the murder weapon.
>
>In short, there was no informant evidence, there was no physical evidence,
>there was _nothing_ to indicate that Gary Graham carried out this killing.
Are you a liar or are you an imbecile?
From the above link:
"Graham further states that he knows he never killed anyone, and he
simply cannot understand how or why someone would claim otherwise.
(Endeavor, Spring 1992.) False. Graham told one robbery victim, Rick
Sanford, that he had killed six people already and if the victim
wanted to be seven to do something stupid (Trial Testimony). To the 57
year old rape victim, Lisa Blackburn, Graham stated, "I have already
killed three people and I'm going to kill you. You don't mean nothing
to me bitch." (Trial Testimony and CBS, Channel 11 News, Houston,
10:00pm, July 29, 1993.) In addition, to Ms. Blackburn Graham stated
"I don't have nothing to lose. I don't plan to get caught. If I get
caught, I burn, and I'm not getting caught." (Trial Testimony.) To one
of the shooting victims, David Spiers, Graham said, after I kill you,
I am going back (to your broken down car) to kill your fiancé and her
parents so they can go with you to "honky hell". Before I kill your
fiancé I'm going to rape her. (From David Spiers' letter.) Michael
LeRoy Breazeale was arrested for attempted murder in January 1982 and
was put in a cell next to Graham at the Harris County Jail. Graham
told Breazeale that, not only did he shoot this guy from Arizona
(Lambert), but that he enjoyed it and that he had shot other people
and that we are all prey out there. Graham stated "I've already killed
a tourist and I'll kill you too. You're just a tourist in jail."
(Public News, Houston, July 9, 1993.) After making victim Richard
Carter, Jr. kneel down and after putting a shotgun in his mouth,
Graham stated, "I'll kill you, too. Blowing away another white mother
fucker don't mean nothing to me." (Trail Testimony). For four (4)
consecutive days after the trial, Carter received phone calls, calls
he believes were from Graham, where the following was said, "I'm going
to kill you when I get out. I'll hunt you down and kill you before I
die". (Richard Carter Statement.) After the death sentence was
imposed, court bailiff Larry Pollinger escorted Graham to a holding
cell. Graham stated, "Next time, I'm not leaving any witnesses."
Pollinger reported the incident the same day to Assistant Harris
County District Attorney Carl Hobbs, who confirms the account.
(Newsweek, August 9, 1993.) Truly, it was only providence that saved
the many intended murder victims above."
What a dumbassed gullible fool this Desmond is...........
Mike Smith
Neal Atkins
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>Your moaning won't change anything. Those 156 souls have been saved, and
>nothing can put them back on death row (unless they murder again, which has
>is in fact been shown to be statistically less likely than your or my
>killing someone).
Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
>
>Abolitionists have once again saved thousands of lives. One of them might
>have been yours, or your wife's/daughter's. At least try to show a bit of
>gratitude.
Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives. I
guess they won't kill any more cons or prison guards.
Why don't you send them a letter and invite them over for dinner?
Fred
>
> I doubt Ryan was ever a true conservative. I think that for years
he
> has, like many politicians, played the part expected of his to get
him
> elected. When he no longer could be elected in Illinois, he
displayed
> his true characteristics. I personally look for him to be a 'born
> again' liberal Democrat sometime in the next two years, possibly
soon
> enough to run for a Congressional seat in a liberal district of
Illinois.
>
> Teflon
Far from it. He was one of those who worked for, and voted for, the
re-instatement of the death penalty in Illinois. The real problem was
that, as a non-lawyer, he didn't know the 'secret', which all lawyers
including DAs and judges know. He didn't know that the whole system
is a toxic sewer of corruption, rather than a pure exercise in
fairness and objectivity, and that it is necessary to keep as far
away from any examination of the system in order to prevent being
contaminated by it. It relies totally on the 'postman' defence, so
beloved of the Nazis, I.E. "I am just doing my job. I am not
responsible for the results".
F
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
nat...@austin.rr.com (Neal Atkins) wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:11:35 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
> <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>
> >Your moaning won't change anything. Those 156 souls have been saved,
> >and
> >nothing can put them back on death row (unless they murder again, which
> >has
> >is in fact been shown to be statistically less likely than your or my
> >killing someone).
>
> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
Opposition to the DP does not go hand in hand with wanting murderers to
walk the streets. I (and many other DP opponents) am quite, quite happy
to see murderers rot in strict confinement for their crimes, secure in
the knowledge that they will never walk the streets again.
> >Abolitionists have once again saved thousands of lives. One of them
> >might
> >have been yours, or your wife's/daughter's. At least try to show a bit
> >of
> >gratitude.
>
> Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives.
I am giving you this one chance to understand your error. Future faulty
argument will not be tolerated and will be responded to with somewhat
harsher language than I have used thus far.
That is all.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Neal Atkins
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>
>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
And graham had been on a crime spree and was conclusively ID'd by
various other people he had robbed the same way. Including one guy he
shot and was in the process of killing when the VICTIM jumped out of
the car.
>In short, there was no informant evidence, there was no physical evidence,
>there was _nothing_ to indicate that Gary Graham carried out this killing.
>
There was sufficent evidence to convict and, thankfully, EXECUTE the
murdering bastard.
>> Don't know who the other one is.
>
>Don't know, or don't care ?
Don't care. Murdering bastards rotting on death row don't concern me
at all.
Dusty Rhodes
> Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives.
Name a single murderer put back on the street by Ryan's actions, moron. One
will do to make you look less of an ass. Begin.
Cheers,
Dusty
Fred
"Governor G.W. Bush grants full clemency -- not just a temporary
stay -- to a man convicted of hundreds of brutal murders which
involve torture, rape, cannibalism, mutilation, dismemberment,
necrophilia, cannibalism, and pedophilia".
http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=4110
Interesting note that the person in question (Henry Lee Lucas) was
white. I do agree that he almost certainly wasn't guilty of the
crimes he confessed to, although he probably did commit about 3
murders.
F
"The Lone Weasel" <lonew...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93017E929BCC6l...@140.99.99.130...
.....
>
> As governor, Bush has relatively little authority over death
penalty
> cases--for example, he does not have the power to impose a
> moratorium on executions, as Illinois Gov. George Ryan (R) did in
> February. Last year, however, Bush vetoed a bill that its
supporters
> said would have improved the quality of legal representation for
> poor defendants. He has defended the prerogative of elected judges
> to appoint lawyers for indigent capital defendants, despite
evidence
> that some appointments have been tainted by patronage. And in 1995,
> he signed a law hastening the death penalty appeals process,
leaving
> condemned prisoners even more dependent on court-appointed
> attorneys.
....
Neal Atkins
They're not out YET. But now that the death penalty has been removed
to give Ryan a legacy, the next step will be for "clemency" and "time
served". Give it a while.
Neal Atkins
<jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
>> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
>> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
>> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
>> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
>
>http://www.ni
>Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
Except my "argument" has already happened. I don't know where you
are, but after the Supreme Court communted all death sentences to
"life" back in the 60's, Henry McDuff was spared the death penalty
for murdering 3 college students. No question. He did it. But the
"life" sentence was going to "protect" the public. The bleeding-heart
do-gooders "saved" McDuff. But he had a "life" sentence. Until a few
other bleeding hearts on the parole board LET HIM OUT. Some say the
board members were bribed. I don't know.
But I DO KNOW that the murdering scum McDuff went on to MURDER at
least 4 more people. One, Colleen Reed, was abducted about 2 blocks
from where I lived.
So don't give me your bleeding-heart bullshit. You assholes want ALL
the murderers out of jail. It somehow makes you "feel" good.
And you don't have a hope in hell of getting any death penalty
"moratorium" bill thru in Texas.
So you want to murder somebody, go to Illinois. They seem to like
your kind up there.
>I am giving you this one chance to understand your error. Future faulty
>argument will not be tolerated and will be responded to with somewhat
>harsher language than I have used thus far.
Oh my. I'm skeeered now.
Dipshit.
JETman
Besides, he had a rap sheet longer than both my arms...
--
Regards,
JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)
Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......
Neal Atkins
>
>"Governor G.W. Bush grants full clemency -- not just a temporary
>stay -- to a man convicted of hundreds of brutal murders which
>involve torture, rape, cannibalism, mutilation, dismemberment,
>necrophilia, cannibalism, and pedophilia".
You stupid shit. Then Govenor Bush gave Lucas a 30 day reprieve. The
Govenor CANNOT grant clemency to someone on death row. At least learn
to lie more convincingly.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
nat...@austin.rr.com (Neal Atkins) wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:02:44 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. Diablo"
> <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
>
> >> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
> >> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
> >> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
> >> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
> >
> >http://www.ni
> >Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
>
> Except my "argument" has already happened.
You're so full of shit that it's a wonder that it's not bubbling out of
your nose, fucktard.
> I don't know where you
> are,
You don't know much, Kneelie, that's one thing that most who've read
your absolute gobshite can definitely conclude.
> but after the Supreme Court communted all death sentences to
> "life" back in the 60's, Henry McDuff was spared the death penalty
> for murdering 3 college students. No question. He did it. But the
> "life" sentence was going to "protect" the public. The bleeding-heart
> do-gooders "saved" McDuff. But he had a "life" sentence. Until a few
> other bleeding hearts on the parole board LET HIM OUT. Some say the
> board members were bribed. I don't know.
Like I said, you really don't know much, Kneelie.
> But I DO KNOW that the murdering scum McDuff went on to MURDER at
> least 4 more people. One, Colleen Reed, was abducted about 2 blocks
> from where I lived.
Oh, look! It's another retard who thinks that everything happened
"about 2 blocks from where [they] lived". I'm sure they'll find Jimmy
Hoffa about 2 blocks from where you lived. And the man behind the
grassy knoll, too, I'll bet.
> So don't give me your bleeding-heart bullshit. You assholes want ALL
> the murderers out of jail. It somehow makes you "feel" good.
If you can provide _any_ credible evidence at all that I have ever
advocated the freeing of _all_ murderers then I'll be more than a little
surprised, Kneelie-boy. The only thing that makes you "'feel' good" is
to tug your wizened little tool over the bodies of murder victims,
reaching climax only when their killer is brutally killed in cold blood.
Murder is a two-way payoff for sick little cunts like you, Kneelie. You
can enjoy the suffering of the victim and _then_ the suffering of the
murderer.
> And you don't have a hope in hell of getting any death penalty
> "moratorium" bill thru in Texas.
Do you have the slightest inkling of how to use quotation marks, Kneelie?
> So you want to murder somebody, go to Illinois. They seem to like
> your kind up there.
Can you demonstrate that I "want to murder" anyone, Kneelie? Did your
daddy pay your teacher to allow you to graduate from grade school?
You are as thick as pigshit.
> >I am giving you this one chance to understand your error. Future faulty
> >argument will not be tolerated and will be responded to with somewhat
> >harsher language than I have used thus far.
>
> Oh my. I'm skeeered now.
>
> Dipshit.
Is this the height of your riposte, Kneelie? Hardly ranks with Shaw or
Wilde, does it? Is English your first language?
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Issues of guilt and innocence (formerly Re: Illinois
Empties
>Death Row)
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:43:31 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:25:24 -0500, dans l'article
><pPmU9.2318$0E.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, John Spragge
><john.s...@sympatico.ca> a dit ...
>
>>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty. Don't know who the other one is.
>
>> I wouldn't classify any verdict based on the testimony of a single
>> eyewitness as beyond doubt. We can say, with considerable confidence, that
>> Shaka Sankofa (aka Gary Graham) engaged in a very nasty cocaine-fuelled
>> rampage of armed robberies accompanied by extreme violence. And I do not
>> have a lot of sympathy for him, or for his protestations of innocence. But
>> that doesn't change the record: the courts convicted him of the critical
>> offence, the murder for which the state executed him, based on a single
>> eyewitness. Given the research on eyewitness testimony, and the limits
>> thereof (http://www.sado.org/19cdn12.htm#19cdn12a), the verdict on Gary
>> Graham certainly deserves the same quotes partisans of capital punishment
>> sometimes place around the list of acquittals published by the Death
>Penalty
>> Information Centre.
>
>Well put as ever, John, and I'd draw the group's attention to another
>couple of cases, the most compelling of which is the conviction of James
>Fulton Foster, sentenced to die in 1956 for the murder of Charlie Drake.
>Mrs Camie Drake, the victim's wife, saw her husband's killer in broad
>daylight, from a distance of barely 30 cm. The gunman in fact ripped the
>telephone from Mrs Drake's hand when she tried to call the police, and then
>pushed his gun into her face. She saw him close up, and subsequently
>identified Mr Foster in a lineup, and in court. He was sentenced to
>death. That was in Jackson County, Georgia, and whilst Richard might like
>to claim that the facts aren't relevant as they happened almost fifty years
>ago and 'people have much better eyesight now', the bald truth of the
>matter is that an innocent man was sentenced to die (but thankfully not
>executed) on the basis of flawed, albeit sincere eyewitness testimony.
>
>Then there was the case of Gus Colin Langley, who was sentenced to die on
>the testimony of a witness who in fact _spoke to the murderer_. That was
>in North Carolina in 1932, and Mr Langley came within five minutes of
>dying in the electric chair. Again, the seemingly 'flawless' eyewitness
>testimony, was flawed.
>
>There are many more such cases, which I'd be glad to list for the group,
>should anyone here still fondly cling to the notion that eyewitnesses are
>reliable.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Issues of guilt and innocence (formerly Re: Illinois Empties
>Death Row)
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:43:31 +0000
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The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:01:48 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:48:42 -0600, dans l'article
><3E21F0CA...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that
>anyone
>>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>> Oh, there's always assertions. What there is not is proof of an
>> innocent being executed in Texas.
>
><yawn>
>
>You know only too well why that is, Richard.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:01:48 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:11:35 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:36:21 GMT, dans l'article
><3e21b54c...@news-server.austin.rr.com>, Neal Atkins
><nat...@austin.rr.com> a dit ...
>
>>>> Update: Gov. George Ryan will issue a blanket clemency to all
>>>> inmates on Illinois' Death Row, a spokesman for the governor
>>>> confirmed today.
>
>>>Governor Ryan has the statesmanship to make a humane decision and
>>>put it into action, unlike the great majority of elected officials
>>>in the United States.
>
>> I doubt it. He was just looking for something that could be put into
>> the history books about his junta that overshadowed the graft and
>> corruption (selling of commercial drivers licenses to name just one).
>
>I sit here chuckling at the sour grapes of the Conservatives in the
>audience, concerning Mr Ryan emptying death row in Illinois, and
>effectively casting a shadow over the entire 'machinery of death' across
>the other 38 states that use it.
>
>Your moaning won't change anything. Those 156 souls have been saved, and
>nothing can put them back on death row (unless they murder again, which has
>is in fact been shown to be statistically less likely than your or my
>killing someone).
>
>Abolitionists have once again saved thousands of lives. One of them might
>have been yours, or your wife's/daughter's. At least try to show a bit of
>gratitude.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:12:13 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:29:11 GMT, dans l'article
><3e21c1cb...@news-server.austin.rr.com>, Neal Atkins
><nat...@austin.rr.com> a dit ...
>
>>>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that
>anyone
>>>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>>>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>>>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
>
>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>
>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
>
>Seven (count 'em, _seven_ !) other witnesses who saw the assaillant, swore
>that it was _not_ Mr Graham. They all swore that the murderer was shorter
>than Bobby Lambert, who was 5'6". Mr Graham was taller. The day after the
>offence, the one eyewitness who subsequently identified Mr Graham, said
>that she could not be sure, and that the 'perp' (sic) had a thinner face,
>and a darker complexion that Mr Graham.
>
>When arrested, Mr Graham had a pistol of the same calibre that had killed the
>victim, Bobby Lambert, but ballistic evidence _conclusively eliminated_ Mr
>Graham's firearm as the murder weapon.
>
>In short, there was no informant evidence, there was no physical evidence,
>there was _nothing_ to indicate that Gary Graham carried out this killing.
>
>> Don't know who the other one is.
>
>Don't know, or don't care ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:59:06 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:52:39 GMT, dans l'article
><XPiU9.1301$T14...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, crosem <cro...@flash.net> a
>dit ...
>
>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that
>anyone
>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
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Richard J
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E20E417...@hotmail.com...
> ...
>
>>I doubt Ryan was ever a true conservative. I think that for years
>
> he
>
>>has, like many politicians, played the part expected of his to get
>
> him
>
>>elected. When he no longer could be elected in Illinois, he
>
> displayed
>
>>his true characteristics. I personally look for him to be a 'born
>>again' liberal Democrat sometime in the next two years, possibly
>
> soon
>
>>enough to run for a Congressional seat in a liberal district of
>
> Illinois.
>
>>Teflon
>
>
> Far from it. He was one of those who worked for, and voted for, the
> re-instatement of the death penalty in Illinois.
As I said, do you have any proof he wasn't just playing a role the whole
time?
The real problem was
> that, as a non-lawyer, he didn't know the 'secret', which all lawyers
> including DAs and judges know. He didn't know that the whole system
> is a toxic sewer of corruption, rather than a pure exercise in
> fairness and objectivity, and that it is necessary to keep as far
> away from any examination of the system in order to prevent being
> contaminated by it.
I don't know about that. I've been involved with the system very closely
at times. There are some trials and trial lawyers on both sides I care
little for, but the vast majority of trials and lawyers try to to as
good a job as they are capable of.
It relies totally on the 'postman' defense, so
> beloved of the Nazis, I.E. "I am just doing my job. I am not
> responsible for the results".
>
> F
>
>
Thus we once again hear the cry of anarchists, leftists,
revolutionaries, some abolitionists, and the common arse hole. "It's
all corrupt, we should just not have a justice system."
Teflon
Neal Atkins
<jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
>> >http://www.ni
>> >Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
>>
>> Except my "argument" has already happened.
>
>You're so full of shit that it's a wonder that it's not bubbling out of
>your nose, fucktard.
"fucktard"? Is this the "harsh language" you spoke of if I didn't
agree with you, you simpering liberal knee-jerk piece of shit?
>
>> I don't know where you
>> are,
>
>You don't know much, Kneelie, that's one thing that most who've read
>your absolute gobshite can definitely conclude.
And who would tell you. You don't have the intelligence to tie your
own shoes. Are you some inbred piece of eurotrash or are you hiding
someplace else in the former "british empire"?
>
>> but after the Supreme Court communted all death sentences to
>> "life" back in the 60's, Henry McDuff was spared the death penalty
>> for murdering 3 college students. No question. He did it. But the
>> "life" sentence was going to "protect" the public. The bleeding-heart
>> do-gooders "saved" McDuff. But he had a "life" sentence. Until a few
>> other bleeding hearts on the parole board LET HIM OUT. Some say the
>> board members were bribed. I don't know.
>
>Like I said, you really don't know much, Kneelie.
So are you saying the murderering bastard McDuff DIDN'T murder those
people after he was let out after his "life" sentence? After all, he
had been in prison for 30+ years. You must have thought he was
"rehabilitated".
>
>> But I DO KNOW that the murdering scum McDuff went on to MURDER at
>> least 4 more people. One, Colleen Reed, was abducted about 2 blocks
>> from where I lived.
>
>Oh, look! It's another retard who thinks that everything happened
>"about 2 blocks from where [they] lived". I'm sure they'll find Jimmy
>Hoffa about 2 blocks from where you lived. And the man behind the
>grassy knoll, too, I'll bet.
Look it up asshole. Reed was abducted from a car wash on Lake Austin
Blvd. That's in Austin, since you couldn't read a map.
>
>> So don't give me your bleeding-heart bullshit. You assholes want ALL
>> the murderers out of jail. It somehow makes you "feel" good.
>
>If you can provide _any_ credible evidence at all that I have ever
>advocated the freeing of _all_ murderers then I'll be more than a little
>surprised, Kneelie-boy. The only thing that makes you "'feel' good" is
>to tug your wizened little tool over the bodies of murder victims,
>reaching climax only when their killer is brutally killed in cold blood.
No you pervert. The last person I heard of getting their jollys while
murdering someone was Carla Faye Tucker. She was high and robbed an
apartment of an acquaintance. They came home. Her partner killed the
woman and she killed the man with a pick ax to the chest. She
testified she "got off" on it.
Maybe you should read her story. I'm sure you were sad when she got
the needle.
>
>Murder is a two-way payoff for sick little cunts like you, Kneelie. You
>can enjoy the suffering of the victim and _then_ the suffering of the
>murderer.
And you are a sick low life scum, much like the murderers you support.
But you don't have the BALLS to actually carry it out. I'll bet you
go visit them in prison and have them regale you with their tales of
bloodlust.
>
>> And you don't have a hope in hell of getting any death penalty
>> "moratorium" bill thru in Texas.
>
>Do you have the slightest inkling of how to use quotation marks, Kneelie?
Why? Are you bucking for third assistant grammar nazi?
>
>You are as thick as pigshit.
I don't have any experience with pig shit. I'll bet you do. I can
imagine you wallowing in it as often as you can. Are you Jewish or
moslem?
>
>> >I am giving you this one chance to understand your error. Future faulty
>> >argument will not be tolerated and will be responded to with somewhat
>> >harsher language than I have used thus far.
>>
>> Oh my. I'm skeeered now.
>>
>> Dipshit.
>
>Is this the height of your riposte, Kneelie? Hardly ranks with Shaw or
>Wilde, does it? Is English your first language?
Yes, English is my first language. Do you have one?
Richard J
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:12:13 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
> <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>
>
>>>Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>>
>>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
Desmond needs to tell the complete truth. The witness saw Graham on two
occasions in the full light of her headlights. Once when he drew the
weapon and crossed in front of her car to rob his victim, and once
following the shooting when he crossed back across in front of her.
From the Texas Attorney General's Office's press release about the then
pending execution of graham:
* Bernadine Skillern witnessed the murder and attempted robbery
and saw Graham commit the crime in a well-lit parking lot.
* During the course of the crime, Skillern had two opportunities to
view Graham's face directly.
* Skillern helped police put together a composite drawing of Graham.
* Skillern has never wavered on her eyewitness testimony.
It would seem that Desmond's statement has some differences with the
Attorney General's. In fact, it has differences with every one of the
interviews I saw with Skillern. That isn't surprising. Her statements
don't support the abolitionist agenda.
>
>
> And graham had been on a crime spree and was conclusively ID'd by
> various other people he had robbed the same way. Including one guy he
> shot and was in the process of killing when the VICTIM jumped out of
> the car.
He was, as far, as I can tell, given consecutive 20 year sentences for
each of the TEN violent crime he committed during the spree. He
admitted all the crimes except the murder, in fact. I guess he was a
bit frightened at the idea of getting executed.
Richard J
It's early yet, Dusty. Let's wait a few years before we make the
judgment if this action causes innocent deaths or not. Until enough
time passes to know if some will actually get released and kill again,
or kill guards or other workers in the prisons they are in.
Then, and only then will we know if, in fact, more innocents will die or
have died because of Ryan's actions. Of course, by then it will be too
late for the victims if any of these men do kill again, won't it? You
can bet that if one of them does kill and Ryan is still alive, someone
will be sure to remind him of the fact, eh?
Teflon
Richard J
Actually, BOTH of you are wrong. Bush commuted Henry Lee Lucas from a
death penalty to life imprisonment. Lucas died serving out his sentence
behind bars.
You really shouldn't call someone else stupid unless you know what
actually occurred yourself. It sort of looks like the pot calling the
kettle black.
Teflon
JETman
Uh, four death row prisoners were pardoned and released. Now, if they
were actually murderers, I don't know. Two of them were in the audience
when the outgoing gov. commuted the sentences of the remaining residents
of death row to life without parole.
Fred
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> drooled mindlessly ...
>
> As I said, do you have any proof he wasn't just playing a role the
whole
> time?
You've offered no proof that he was, just your paranoid fantasies.
> I don't know about that. I've been involved with the system very
closely
> at times. There are some trials and trial lawyers on both sides I
care
> little for, but the vast majority of trials and lawyers try to to
as
> good a job as they are capable of.
Doesn't that give you a warm, fuzzy feeling? "As good a job as they
are capable of". Like the Challenger managers? "Just take off, it'll
be all right - I guess".
> Thus we once again hear the cry of anarchists, leftists,
> revolutionaries, some abolitionists, and the common arse hole.
"It's
> all corrupt, we should just not have a justice system."
Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well operated
system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there nothing
that the US can do right?
F
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
nat...@austin.rr.com (Neal Atkins) wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:30:33 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. Diablo"
> <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
>
> >> >http://www.ni
> >> >Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
> >>
> >> Except my "argument" has already happened.
> >
> >You're so full of shit that it's a wonder that it's not bubbling out of
> >your nose, fucktard.
>
> "fucktard"? Is this the "harsh language" you spoke of if I didn't
> agree with you, you simpering liberal knee-jerk piece of shit?
You fucking moron. I don't ask you to agree with me. I ask you to
argue in a logical fashion. Given that you didn't complete your
schooling to the point where the notion of "logic" was explained to you,
I'm hardly surprised that you've not managed to address a single point
that I've made thus far.
> >> I don't know where you
> >> are,
> >
> >You don't know much, Kneelie, that's one thing that most who've read
> >your absolute gobshite can definitely conclude.
>
> And who would tell you. You don't have the intelligence to tie your
> own shoes.
I appear to have the intelligence required to correctly punctuate,
though, Kneelie.
> Are you some inbred piece of eurotrash or are you hiding
> someplace else in the former "british empire"?
Perhaps someday you'll learn how to interpret headers. I don't hold
that much hope for you, though, given that you are unlikely to know what
headers _are_.
> >> but after the Supreme Court communted all death sentences to
> >> "life" back in the 60's, Henry McDuff was spared the death penalty
> >> for murdering 3 college students. No question. He did it. But the
> >> "life" sentence was going to "protect" the public. The bleeding-heart
> >> do-gooders "saved" McDuff. But he had a "life" sentence. Until a few
> >> other bleeding hearts on the parole board LET HIM OUT. Some say the
> >> board members were bribed. I don't know.
> >
> >Like I said, you really don't know much, Kneelie.
>
> So are you saying the murderering bastard McDuff DIDN'T murder those
> people after he was let out after his "life" sentence?
No. You put forward the idea that the board members "were bribed"
(ROTFLMAO!) and concluded by saying that "[you] don't know". Your
admission is touching, Kneelie, but attempting to put words into my
mouth as a result of admitting your ignorance doesn't cut the mustard in
_this_ man's air force.
> After all, he
> had been in prison for 30+ years. You must have thought he was
> "rehabilitated".
You know precisely two things about what I think or believe, Kneelie.
They are, as you Americans so chamlessly put it, "Jack" and "shit".
[snip Kneelie's illiterate, spittle-flecked gibberings]
> >> So don't give me your bleeding-heart bullshit. You assholes want ALL
> >> the murderers out of jail. It somehow makes you "feel" good.
> >
> >If you can provide _any_ credible evidence at all that I have ever
> >advocated the freeing of _all_ murderers then I'll be more than a little
> >surprised, Kneelie-boy. The only thing that makes you "'feel' good" is
> >to tug your wizened little tool over the bodies of murder victims,
> >reaching climax only when their killer is brutally killed in cold blood.
>
> No you pervert. The last person I heard of getting their jollys while
> murdering someone was Carla Faye Tucker. She was high and robbed an
> apartment of an acquaintance. They came home. Her partner killed the
> woman and she killed the man with a pick ax to the chest. She
> testified she "got off" on it.
>
> Maybe you should read her story. I'm sure you were sad when she got
> the needle.
I wasn't sad, Kneelie. At least, though, I wasn't tugging my tool at
the thought of her dying as _you_ were.
> >Murder is a two-way payoff for sick little cunts like you, Kneelie. You
> >can enjoy the suffering of the victim and _then_ the suffering of the
> >murderer.
>
> And you are a sick low life scum, much like the murderers you support.
> But you don't have the BALLS to actually carry it out. I'll bet you
> go visit them in prison and have them regale you with their tales of
> bloodlust.
Getting a bit hot under the collar, son? Don't worry. It's a common
problem for people who can't cope with either argument or invective.
You can go on mistaking your ordure for ideas for as long as you like,
dimbulb, but you won't impress anyone with your foamy-mouthed ravings.
> >> And you don't have a hope in hell of getting any death penalty
> >> "moratorium" bill thru in Texas.
> >
> >Do you have the slightest inkling of how to use quotation marks,
> >Kneelie?
>
> Why? Are you bucking for third assistant grammar nazi?
Your illiteracy is still more evidence of your stupidity. I thought
that it was worth pointing out. After all, it might prompt you to
undertake the remedial English classes of which you appear to be so
badly in need.
> >You are as thick as pigshit.
>
> I don't have any experience with pig shit. I'll bet you do. I can
> imagine you wallowing in it as often as you can. Are you Jewish or
> moslem?
Are you a racist, Nazi fuck, Kneelie? Yup.
The innate racism of the pro death penalty fringe exposed for all and
sundry to see. :(
> >> >I am giving you this one chance to understand your error. Future
> >> >faulty
> >> >argument will not be tolerated and will be responded to with somewhat
> >> >harsher language than I have used thus far.
> >>
> >> Oh my. I'm skeeered now.
> >>
> >> Dipshit.
> >
> >Is this the height of your riposte, Kneelie? Hardly ranks with Shaw or
> >Wilde, does it? Is English your first language?
>
> Yes, English is my first language.
Then you'd better start learning how to use it correctly, sport.
[snip Kneelie's lame attempt at a comeback for fear that its quotation
may embarrass the poor sap even further]
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<no-...@nowhere.nohow> wrote:
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> drooled mindlessly ...
> >
> > As I said, do you have any proof he wasn't just playing a role the
> whole
> > time?
>
> You've offered no proof that he was, just your paranoid fantasies.
Yes. The onus here is on Richard to provide some proof as he is making
the assertion.
> Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well operated
> system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there nothing
> that the US can do right?
If you can name another country that has an honest, well operated
justice system then I'd be pleased to hear from you. In truth, many
countries manage better than the USA but claiming that other systems are
somehow objectively "good" is a long bow to draw indeed.
Cerberus
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote in
message news:jonathan-8C7136...@newsroom.utas.edu.au...
> In article <3e22157...@news-server.austin.rr.com>,
> nat...@austin.rr.com (Neal Atkins) wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:02:44 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. Diablo"
> > <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
{Much snippage}
>
> Is this the height of your riposte, Kneelie? Hardly ranks with Shaw or
> Wilde, does it? Is English your first language?
>
O.K Mr Q.
Here comes the 'Dorothy Dixer'
The reference that you make to our moribund friend 'Neal' as 'Kneelie'. Is
that a play on a variation of his name or an illustration of the position
that he assumes when he gives head?
WooF w00f WooF
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
Fred
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks>
> > Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well
operated
> > system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there
nothing
> > that the US can do right?
>
> If you can name another country that has an honest, well operated
> justice system then I'd be pleased to hear from you. In truth,
many
> countries manage better than the USA but claiming that other
systems are
> somehow objectively "good" is a long bow to draw indeed.
>
> Mr Q. Z. D.
England, Scotland, Ireland, Eire, Canada, Australia, New Zealand for
a start. I'd much rather take my chances in any one of these than in
the USA, where the most important consideration is how much money you
have, a consideration which is similar to the situation when you are
ill.
F
A Planet Visitor
"Dave (Wyoming Bantam)" <liberal_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CifU9.67623$kY3.2...@twister.southeast.rr.com...> > Dave (Wyoming Bantam) crowed and spurring the typewriter wrote:
> >
> > >>
> > >
> > > Let's hope that all Conservative Republicans never make it through
> another
> > > primary! I applaud Gov. Ryan for his brave and just act - could he be
> the
> > > first example of a reformed conservative - didn't think they could be
> > > reformed? It just goes to show that the most unlikely of species can be
> > > rehabilitated...
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I doubt Ryan was ever a true conservative. I think that for years he
> > has, like many politicians, played the part expected of his to get him
> > elected. When he no longer could be elected in Illinois, he displayed
> > his true characteristics. I personally look for him to be a 'born
> > again' liberal Democrat sometime in the next two years, possibly soon
> > enough to run for a Congressional seat in a liberal district of Illinois.
> >
> > Teflon
> >
> them will see the truth and the light and throw off the hatred and bigotry
> of conservatism. Rehabilitation is possible, even in the worst of cases.
>
There is always hope for conservatives. It is the liberals we need to
worry about. :-)
PV
> Best wishes
>
> Dave
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Wesley Lowe" <wl...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:ji2U9.19186$2z1....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
>
> --
>
> "Damson Rhee" <Desp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:V80U9.9073$7h3.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > "Tim Drake" <t...@gotham.com> wrote in message
> > news:y8%T9.240$yH1.17...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> > >
> > > "Strong Eagle" <stron...@motherearth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3E203F7D...@motherearth.net...
> > > > citizen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > `The system has failed'
> > > >
> > > > We need the same thing in Texas. Prosecutors and judges here don't
> give
> > a
> > > > damn about justice, or guilt and innocence. They just want
> convictions.
> > >
> > > Ryan does not care about justice. If he did, he would have not been
> so
> > > eager to piss on the graves of scores of murder victims. Or piss off
> their
> > > families.
> > >
> > > Want to see something amazing? You will when Ryan comes up for
> > > re-election. He will not even make it through his party's primary.
> > >
> > >How about the "pissing on the graves" of the men executed who were
> > innocent? How about the countless years men spent on death row when they
> > didn't commit the crimes they were accused of? They count for nothing
> whem
> > compared to the need for revenge?
> > If I have heard correctly, he's not running for anything in the near
> future.
> > That was the whole point. His last acts as governor. He probably
> wouldn't
> > be able to get elected dog catcher after what he did. Which says more
> about
> > society than it does about him. He declared the moratorium because of
> > concerns, he spent two years trying to do something about it, and what
> help
> > did he get from the people who could help?
> > so, it came to this. I say tough. What man is qualifed to say that it's
> > acceptable to take this or that number of innocent lives, to make sure
> that
> > guilty ones die?
> > D
> > >
> Actually, it has nothing to do with "courage"! With such an act, he hopes
> to
> direct attention away from his corruption and scandal infested governorship!
> But it will obviously backfire and lead to not only an increase in the
> murder rate, but boost public support for the DP! Indeed, the last Gallup
> poll rated support for the DP from the upper 60s to the lower 70s this past
> year. How much you want to bet that this latest incident will boost support
> to at least 75% in the next poll?
>
> And only a lying pro murderer fanatic like you would be pleased by Ryan's
> reprehensible act, being so immoral and twisted that the only time you
> assign worth to innocent lives is when they serve as sheilds to preserve
> murderers! How manipulative and corrupt is that?
>
> And if Ryan is so dedicated to protecting the innocent, then why is it that
> he has done nothing to eliminate the inhumane parole and probation release
> policies which result in the needless injury and slaughter of thousands of
> innocent people each year, including in his state? Where is his compassion
> in honoring the previous victim's suffering and in protecting future victims
> from repeat offences? It's a scam, I tell you! A manipulative scam!
>
I would hope that you do not permit desi to 'chase' you away with his
'mindless drivel' and sickening insults, as he has done to so many
reasonable posters on both sides of this issue.
PV
> Wesley Lowe
>
> http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html
>
>
>
Reilly
> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> wrote:
>
> >> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
> >> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
> >> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
> >> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
> >
> >http://www.ni
> >Read what's there. It describes your argument perfectly.
>
> Except my "argument" has already happened.
I notice you deleted the website QZD provided above. Obviously stung by the
comparison.
Here it is again:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
[...]
> So don't give me your bleeding-heart bullshit. You assholes
> want ALL the murderers out of jail. It somehow makes
> you "feel" good.
Oh, you're a troll. That explains it.
A Planet Visitor
"Mike Smith" <m...@wt.net> wrote in message news:7C04C5EA869AEC2A.69EC627B...@lp.airnews.net...
<nat...@austin.rr.com> a dit ...
> >
>
>
For a newbie (???) you are the most astute judge of character
I've ever seen. Trust me... from here on forward, your opinion of
him will only grow more certain of your original conclusion.
PV
> Mike Smith
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:s4ssva...@lievre.voute.net...
> le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:48:42 -0600, dans l'article <3E21F0CA...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
dit ...
>
> >> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
> >> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
> > innocent being executed in Texas.
>
> <yawn>
>
> You know only too well why that is, Richard.
>
PV
> --
> Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
|Spiritual Leader of the Universal
|Right to Life Church. (umm... get
|away from me -- you filthy black
|starving child in Africa) 'My church'
|isn't for you.
>
John Rennie
"Fred" <no-...@nowhere.nohow> wrote in message
news:COsU9.141686$k13.7...@news0.telusplanet.net...
I'm with Mr D on this one, Fred. Speaking as an
Englishman there have been far too many long term
sentences given to innocents over the past 30 years
for me to have any sort of pride in the 'fairness'
of our legal system.
Strong Eagle
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:11:35 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
> <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>
> >Your moaning won't change anything. Those 156 souls have been saved, and
> >nothing can put them back on death row (unless they murder again, which has
> >is in fact been shown to be statistically less likely than your or my
> >killing someone).
>
> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
> >
> >Abolitionists have once again saved thousands of lives. One of them might
> >have been yours, or your wife's/daughter's. At least try to show a bit of
> >gratitude.
>
> Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives. I
> guess they won't kill any more cons or prison guards.
>
> Why don't you send them a letter and invite them over for dinner?
When are you going to take a moment to consider that INNOCENT people have been
executed? Does not this matter at all in your zeal to kill?
Strong Eagle
> crosem wrote:
> > it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
> > executed in Texas was not guilty...
> >
> >
>
> Oh, there's always assertions. What there is not is proof of an
> innocent being executed in Texas.
>
> Teflon
Why would Texas be any different than Illinois? Chances are good it would be
worse.
tools
proof surfaces {sometimes 10-15 years after "conviction"} They were
"rotting" too. Neal, you are either very stupid, or you need to spend a few
years there to learn about the wonderful justice system.news:3e21eda3...@news-server.austin.rr.com...
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:12:13 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
> <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>
> >> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
> >
> >Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
> >admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
> >spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
> >car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
>
> various other people he had robbed the same way. Including one guy he
> shot and was in the process of killing when the VICTIM jumped out of
> the car.
>
Richard J
So far, the only thing I've heard of any of those four killing was a beer.
Teflon
Richard J
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> drooled mindlessly ...
>
>>As I said, do you have any proof he wasn't just playing a role the
>
> whole
>
>>time?
>
>
> You've offered no proof that he was, just your paranoid fantasies.
>
>
>>I don't know about that. I've been involved with the system very
>
> closely
>
>>at times. There are some trials and trial lawyers on both sides I
>
> care
>
>>little for, but the vast majority of trials and lawyers try to to
>
> as
>
>>good a job as they are capable of.
>
>
> Doesn't that give you a warm, fuzzy feeling? "As good a job as they
> are capable of". Like the Challenger managers? "Just take off, it'll
> be all right - I guess".
Good analogy. Think of all the other SUCCESSFUL shuttle takeoffs as well.
>
>
>>Thus we once again hear the cry of anarchists, leftists,
>>revolutionaries, some abolitionists, and the common arse hole.
>
> "It's
>
>>all corrupt, we should just not have a justice system."
>
>
> Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well operated
> system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there nothing
> that the US can do right?
>
> F
All in all, we do. Like any system designed by humans, there are
mistakes and misdeeds. All other nations have errors and misdeeds as
well, because like us, their systems are designed and run by humans as
well. How about we do the best we can do and eliminate problems as we
come to them? Or don't you believe in doing one's best? Are you one of
those idealists who actually believes there is such a thing as human
perfection?
Teflon
>
>
Richard J
> In article <LFrU9.141649$k13.7...@news0.telusplanet.net>, "Fred"
> <no-...@nowhere.nohow> wrote:
>
>
>>"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> drooled mindlessly ...
>>
>>>As I said, do you have any proof he wasn't just playing a role the
>>
>>whole
>>
>>>time?
>>
>>You've offered no proof that he was, just your paranoid fantasies.
>
>
> Yes. The onus here is on Richard to provide some proof as he is making
> the assertion.
It is a supposition, Diablo. suppositions are just that. The proof
will be in the guy's actions to follow.
>
>
>>Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well operated
>>system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there nothing
>>that the US can do right?
>
>
> If you can name another country that has an honest, well operated
> justice system then I'd be pleased to hear from you. In truth, many
> countries manage better than the USA but claiming that other systems are
> somehow objectively "good" is a long bow to draw indeed.
Like assuming Fred has a moderate level of intelligence.
Teflon
Richard J
<snip>
>
>
> When are you going to take a moment to consider that INNOCENT people have been
> executed? Does not this matter at all in your zeal to kill?
>
I consider there is the chance that some innocent of the crime of murder
MIGHT have been executed. Until there is incontrovertable proof of such
an execution, however, the accusation is only that, an unsubstanciated
accusation. Do you have incontrovertable proof of an innocent being
executed since 1973?
Teflon
Richard J
Which person innocent of the crime of murder has been proven to be
executed anywhere in the US since 1973. I say 1973 because of the
Furnam ruling and the improvements in modern forensics so you will have
some chance of actually proving your claim.
Be my guest. Name ONE case in the US since 1973 where is has been
PROVEN that someone was executed for a crime they did not commit.
Teflon
Wayne Herbert
Illinois courts found 13 men had been wrongfully convicted since capital punishment
resumed in Illinois in 1977. See:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/Illinois.htm
for details, but this is a 4.9 percent error rate.
I would note that each of these people would have been executed, had it not been
for the direct intervention of the Northwestern law center and the governor.
Nobody else gave a damn.
But, I am still looking for the Texas case where an innocent man was executed. In
the meanwhile, here is a list of other states
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/States.htm
danh
[...]
I think he
> should have reviewed each case individually, and commuted the ones where
> he had doubts. Instead, he gave a blanket commutation. THAT's not
> just, just a lazy man's way.
Sigh. The problem is that there is so much wrong with the process, that
it's impossible to determine both innocence/guilt and meriting the dp. It's
impossible to discern whether a competent lawyer would have been able to
save the lives of those convicted. One can't tell whether those on death
row truly merited the dp or whether they were just unlucky.
In the face of a grossly broken system, the only remediation is to junk it.
This is the same approach we would use for a car. We should care as much
for humans. Ryan did.
Ya'll need a new slogan. Instead of "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out",
try "Kill 'em quick, before the facts are known".
John Rennie
Well said. But it is because I do not believe in human perfection
that I am against the DP. If it had not been repealed in the UK
I am certain that at least 20 men and women would have been
hanged including the Birmingham 6 and the Guildford 4. At least
one or two of these would have been innocent.
John Spragge
> Except my "argument" has already happened. I don't know where you
> are, but after the Supreme Court communted all death sentences to
> "life" back in the 60's, Henry McDuff was spared the death penalty
> for murdering 3 college students.
[snip]
> ...a few
> other bleeding hearts on the parole board LET HIM OUT.
The individual you refer to went by the name of Kenneth McDuff, actually.
Other than that,
your narrative follows the main facts fairly well, but you go way off on
motives. McDuff's
parole had nothing to do with hearts, bleeding or otherwise, but with a well
known reluctance
of Texas politicians to tax their constituents, even for essential services.
At the time of Kenneth McDuff's parole (late eighties) the Texas prison
system had a very
severe shortage of bed space. Even conservative publications. such as
Reader's Digest,
had raised the alarm about the reluctance of Texas politicians to build
enough jail space to
make their prison sentences effective. Overcrowding in Texas prisons
endangered inmates,
guards, other prison workers, and even the people living in the vicinity of
the prisons. Finally,
a federal judge called a halt, and ordered Texas to end the overcrowding.
Incredibly, in the late eighties and early nineties, the government of Texas
chose to deal with
prison overcrowding by releasing a great many violent offenders on parole.
These violent offenders included a large number of murderers. Kenneth
McDuff, although the most serious
offender paroled in this way, had plenty of company. In the early nineties,
the parole
board released murderers after as little as four years in custody.
Predictably, the Texas murder
rate soared. Ann Richards, governor at the time, backed an initiative to
raise taxes and build
the necessary prison space. For that, the voters of Texas turned her out in
favour of one George
W. Bush, who had promised to lower taxes.
> And you don't have a hope in hell of getting any death penalty
> "moratorium" bill thru in Texas.
Good. A moratorium would likely prove counter-productive; in fact, it would
probably
cost innocent lives. If you want to reduce the murder rate, you have to
create an effective
replacement for capital punishment, one that trades some theoretical
severity for certainty.
Current capital statutes, in Texas as elsewhere in the United States,
threaten potential
killers with a remote possibility of a premature death from execution. The
odds come in
at about one execution for every four or five hundred homicides. You can
make a case
that many killers live longer and better lives on death row than they would
on the street.
And capital punishment imposes crippling costs and even more crippling
uncertainties
on the justice system. The most effective alternative, which we have in
Canada, says to
everyone: if you commit intentional murder, we will sentence you to life, no
exceptions.
And you will serve at least fifteen, more likely thirty years of that life
sentence behind
stone walls. And our juries will really convict you of that crime: no "plea
bargaining"
murder down to manslaughter. That may seem a lenient way to treat the "worst
of the
worst", but it works. Canada has a murder rate a third that of the US, and
more like a
fifth that of Texas. And our murder rate reversed an increase and started to
drop in 1976,
the year Parliament replaced an ineffective capital murder statute with a
non-nonsense, no
exceptions life sentence.
Neal Atkins
Why don't YOU consider that there is no evidence or indication that
ANY "innocent" person has been executed in Texas.
Will you only be happy when all the murderers like McDuff are freed
from death row and free to kill some more?
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <3E22CD31...@hotmail.com>, Richard J
<ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
> Here's a radical thought - how about having an honest, well operated
>> system? After all, other countries manage that. Or is there nothing
>> that the US can do right?
>>
>> F
>
> All in all, we do. Like any system designed by humans, there are
> mistakes and misdeeds. All other nations have errors and misdeeds as
> well, because like us, their systems are designed and run by humans as
> well. How about we do the best we can do and eliminate problems as we
> come to them? Or don't you believe in doing one's best? Are you one of
> those idealists who actually believes there is such a thing as human
> perfection?
>
> Teflon
There was an editorial in the French paper Le Monde on Ryan's actions. It
said what one might expect from this paper, right up until the last
paragraph. This said:
"We must salute everyone, lawyers, jurists, researchers, socail workers,
journalists, university professors and students, who furnished the main
thrust for the debate by exposing judicial errors. And we must listen to
them when they invite us, in France and in Europe, to examine our own
judicial systems and our prisons."
Our system in France here certainly has its errors and misdeed. I have seen
enough of the judicial systems and the prisons to be very well aware of
this. And I applaud an editorial which admits we are not perfect, but does
invite us to do better. To try to do our best.
Donna Evleth
>
>>
Neal Atkins
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>> Why don't YOU consider that there is no evidence or indication that
>> ANY "innocent" person has been executed in Texas.
>
>Rubbish, of course, and you know it. There is a world of difference
>between 'indication', 'evidence', and 'posthumous pardon'.
Talk about "rubbish". The only evidence that anyone in Texas that was
innocent and was executed is IN YOUR OWN MIND.
>
>> Will you only be happy when all the murderers like McDuff are freed
>> from death row and free to kill some more?
>
>Since it was the Conservatives who let him out, perhaps you should consider
>shutting up, and not making such an arse of yourself ...
Try again, stupid fucking yankee. The pardon board was staffed by the
democRATs. And now even the whole board let McDuff off. It was 3
people.
Dusty Rhodes
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:40:39 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"
> <te...@SPAMMENOTtexas.net> wrote:
>
> >"Neal Atkins" <nat...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> >
> >> Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives.
> >
One
> >will do to make you look less of an ass. Begin.
>
> to give Ryan a legacy, the next step will be for "clemency" and "time
> served". Give it a while.
IOW, you're an idiot making stupid guesses about that which you know not
shit. That's what I thought.
BTW, Ryan already has a legacy. Like many GOPer's, his legacy is that of a
petty thief and corporate crony. And FYI, moron, he's now out of office.
Expecting anything else at this point is truly the creme de la dumb.
Cheers,
Dusty
Richard J
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E2192F...@hotmail.com...
>
> [...]
>
> I think he
>
>>should have reviewed each case individually, and commuted the ones where
>>he had doubts. Instead, he gave a blanket commutation. THAT's not
>>just, just a lazy man's way.
>
>
> Sigh. The problem is that there is so much wrong with the process, that
> it's impossible to determine both innocence/guilt and meriting the dp.
That is crap. There are some cases where there is no doubt of guilt.
It's
> impossible to discern whether a competent lawyer would have been able to
> save the lives of those convicted.
Sometimes yes, and sometimes not. That depends upon the merits of each
case. Some cases where the defendant confesses and there is
overwhelming evidence, such as videos of the murder and DNA evidence
couldn't be helped by the 'Dream Team'.
One can't tell whether those on death
> row truly merited the dp or whether they were just unlucky.
One can if each case is examined, tell which cases were 'slam dunks'
because of the irrefutable nature of the evidence.
>
> In the face of a grossly broken system, the only remediation is to junk it.
> This is the same approach we would use for a car. We should care as much
> for humans. Ryan did.
>
> Ya'll need a new slogan. Instead of "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out",
> try "Kill 'em quick, before the facts are known".
>
>
You need to look at the actual facts instead of using propaganda
tactics. The average time between trial (trial not the crime itself)
and execution in Texas is slightly more than nine years. That isn't
exactly a rush to execute.
Teflon
Strong Eagle
I will be happy when innocent people are not executed. See, your problem is you
don't care if a few innocent people fall through the cracks as long as we get the
guilty ones. I would rather let a few of the guilty ones slip through the cracks
in order to prevent innocent people from being killed. I have a strong moral
ground for this. What grounds do you stand upon that would permit the execution of
innocent people?
Don't get me wrong. I'm in favor of the death penalty. I'm opposed to killing
innocent people, and given the current judicial climate in Texas, I have no problem
in seeing every last case reviewed. They wouldn't do that in Illinois; that is why
Ryan acted.
Since you asked:
http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html
Fred
>
...
>
> Were there any? Name one.
There are cases ongoing in the USA where requests have been filed to
test the DNA evidence related to crimes after the convicted persons
have been executed. The DAs involved file motion after motion to
block these tests in a desperate attempt to prevent the truth coming
out.
In one case a DA fought bitterly for 5 years, sparing absolutely no
expense, to block DNA testing. When the testing was finally done, it
once again proved conclusively that the person convicted was, in
fact, innocent. In another case when a priest, his diocese and bishop
all agreed that the priest was not bound by the seal of confession to
keep some exculpatory information secret, the DA went to court to try
to block the release, on the grounds that he, the DA, knew better
about Catholic confession than they did!
DAs have even come up with the ridiculous "un-indicted co-ejaculator"
theory in an effort to prove that their whole case was not based on
lies and fraud.
Is it any surprise that they will fight even more bitterly to prevent
any examination of the evidence involved after execution?
F
Richard J
> le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:07:07 -0600, dans l'article <3E223B6B...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>>>>>Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>>>>
>
>>>>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>>>>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>>>>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>>>>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
>>>
>
>>occasions in the full light of her headlights. Once when he drew the
>>weapon and crossed in front of her car to rob his victim, and once
>>following the shooting when he crossed back across in front of her.
>
>
> There are two points to be raised, Richard. One is that the Attorney
> General is responsible for the prosecution of criminal cases, and as such,
> prosecutorial misconduct on the part of the state, is hardly likely to be
> included in the press release by the same party ! Second, even if the
> witness had seen the assailant close up, got his autograph, had dinner with
> him, and given him a blow job in a telephone box, that doesn't change the
> fact that Texas executed a man on the basis of a single eyewitness account.
> Even if we ignore the 'Biblical' interdiction on executing a man without
> several eyewitnesses (which should be more important to you, as you claim
> to be a 'Christian'), we are still left with the proven unreliability of
> eyewitness testimony, as evinced by the cases which I quoted last night, as
> well as by the research detailed in the URL provided by John Spragge, which
> I take the liberty of reposting ...
And allow me to remind you of another thing. The witness, prior to
seeing photos of the assailant, helped the police draw a composite photo
of him which looks remarkably like Graham at that time. Did that come
out of think air?
>
> url:http://www.sado.org/19cdn12.htm#19cdn12a
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>It would seem that Desmond's statement has some differences with the
>>Attorney General's. In fact, it has differences with every one of the
>>interviews I saw with Skillern. That isn't surprising. Her statements
>>don't support the abolitionist agenda.
>
>
> Nor does the fact that seven other eyewitnesses _excluded_ Mr Graham as a
> possible suspect, support the deathie agenda, Richard.
Does that include the two who didn't see the crime that were excluded,
and the two who were friends of his who were not even there. Those
witnesses were excluded because they were not creditable. In other
words, their statements were unsupported by fact and deemed not
truthful. The defense abstained from calling the another one or two
because to do so would have caused the whole history of crime Gram built
to be mentioned in the process, thus opening the door for the
prosecution to use that history in the determination of guilt or
innocence phase of the trial. Since graham at that time already
admitted to ten other violent crimes from rape to attempted murder with
various armed robberies thrown in, it is doubtful such disclosure would
have helped show his innocence by proving his sweet and peaceful
character, now would it not?
>
>
>>>And graham had been on a crime spree and was conclusively ID'd by
>>>various other people he had robbed the same way. Including one guy he
>>>shot and was in the process of killing when the VICTIM jumped out of
>>>the car.
>>
>
>>He was, as far, as I can tell, given consecutive 20 year sentences for
>>each of the TEN violent crime he committed during the spree. He
>>admitted all the crimes except the murder, in fact. I guess he was a
>>bit frightened at the idea of getting executed.
>
>
> Wholly irrelevant, and you know it. No amount of armed robbery sprees
> equates to implied or proven guilt in the murder case.
Not irrelevant at all if the perpetrator felt he might get away with
murder by doing so. Who knows what went on in the guy's mind. I can
tell you from past experience that criminals will often cop to a lesser
crime in hopes of appearing honest while throwing the legal dice at a
trial for a harsh crime. I've seen it done on other occasions, although
never a situation such as this.
Teflon
Richard J
> le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:42:51 -0600, dans l'article <3E22D06B...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>>>>>it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
>>>>>executed in Texas was not guilty...
>>>>
>
>>>>Oh, there's always assertions. What there is not is proof of an
>>>>innocent being executed in Texas.
>>>
>
>>>worse.
>>
>
>>Which person innocent of the crime of murder has been proven to be
>>executed anywhere in the US since 1973. I say 1973 because of the
>>Furnam ruling and the improvements in modern forensics so you will have
>>some chance of actually proving your claim.
>>
>>Be my guest. Name ONE case in the US since 1973 where is has been
>>PROVEN that someone was executed for a crime they did not commit.
>
>
> long as you're on news:alt.activism.death-penalty, Richard, so there's no
> point in asking you to refrain from such disingenuity. Nor should we be
> surprised that a citizen of a country that is presently asking the leader
> of a foreign power to do the impossible, i.e. prove a negative under threat
> of invasion, is espousing the proof of a negative as the 'only criterion'
> for establishing post-execution innocence.
>
> However, for the benefit of those for whom your post was the first contact
> with your little charade, let us not forget that it is impossible to prove
> 'innocence', before or after the execution of a death sentence. Are you to
> able to prove, for example, that you were not involved in the Great Train
> Robbery ? What about Project Northwood on 11 September 2001 in New York,
> Washington and Pennsylvania ?
>
> Nor should we forget that you are asking abolitionists to achieve something
> that your legal system currently does not permit. There is no procedure to
> 'prove the innocence' of those executed. Nor do lawyers, civil rights
> activists or (especially) [capital punishment's] victims' families, have
> the financial means to investigate claims of innocence once the sentence is
> carried out. Efforts inevitably are concentrated in saving the living.
>
I'm not asking yo to prove innocence, Desmond. I'm asking you to prove,
with irrefutable proof, that someone was actually executed for a crime
they did not commit. That proof can be in the form of proof of someone
else's guilt, or plausible and provable confession to the crime. Hell,
Desmond, I've even asked you to prove the execution of an innocent using
the lesser burden of proof of a civil case and the abolitionist movement
is unable to do that. That requires only 51% of the evidence support
the claim.
In short, you have no proof what so ever of ANY TYPE! All you have are
smoke screens and suppositions. This is the single most glaring
weakness in the abolitionist argument, and you know it. That's why you
attempt to discredit my question. YOU CANNOT ANSWER IT.
Teflon
danh
> danh wrote:
> > "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3E2192F...@hotmail.com...
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I think he
> >
> >>should have reviewed each case individually, and commuted the ones where
> >>he had doubts. Instead, he gave a blanket commutation. THAT's not
> >>just, just a lazy man's way.
> >
> >
> > Sigh. The problem is that there is so much wrong with the process, that
> > it's impossible to determine both innocence/guilt and meriting the dp.
>
> That is crap. There are some cases where there is no doubt of guilt.
Compound sentences can be confusing. To reiterate, both guilt *and* merit
must be established before a death sentence can be given. Even when there
is no doubt of guilt, the question of merit can remain ambiguous. It's bad
enough that in IL, far more men have been found factually innocent than the
number executed, but when we add in the question of merit, there is such
great opportunity for error that the only ethical thing to do is commute
all.
> It's
> > impossible to discern whether a competent lawyer would have been able to
> > save the lives of those convicted.
>
> Sometimes yes, and sometimes not. That depends upon the merits of each
> case. Some cases where the defendant confesses and there is
> overwhelming evidence, such as videos of the murder and DNA evidence
> couldn't be helped by the 'Dream Team'.
Again Richard, many people are serving prison terms as punishment for their
confession to murder. Competent lawyers undubitably make the difference
between life and death. One wonders why dp proponents so fervently want
miserable representation for the accused.
> One can't tell whether those on death
> > row truly merited the dp or whether they were just unlucky.
>
> One can if each case is examined, tell which cases were 'slam dunks'
> because of the irrefutable nature of the evidence.
Merit is rarely a slam dunk issue. Possibly never.
> > In the face of a grossly broken system, the only remediation is to junk
it.
> > This is the same approach we would use for a car. We should care as
much
> > for humans. Ryan did.
> >
> > Ya'll need a new slogan. Instead of "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em
out",
> > try "Kill 'em quick, before the facts are known".
>
> You need to look at the actual facts instead of using propaganda
> tactics. The average time between trial (trial not the crime itself)
> and execution in Texas is slightly more than nine years. That isn't
> exactly a rush to execute.
The facts are that most dp exonerations occur after a decade or more has
passed. I think that's a travesty and that more should be done to get the
facts to light sooner. Nevertheless, any execution that goes forth without
resolving all the legitimate questions surrounding the crime and the
punishment ought not to occur, regardless of whether Texans need to use all
their fingers and toes to count the years.
Fred
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vWyU9.749$hy5.5...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
.....
>
> I'm with Mr D on this one, Fred. Speaking as an
> Englishman there have been far too many long term
> sentences given to innocents over the past 30 years
> for me to have any sort of pride in the 'fairness'
> of our legal system.
Just compare any murder case in a Southern state where the defence
lawyer was paid $1000 for the whole case - and slept through most of
it, with the recent Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka case in Canada
where the police had video of Paul Bernardo torturing (though not
murdering) the two girls he abducted and still made sure that the
defence had more than sufficient funds.
Look also at the Port Coquitlam Canada pig farm case (Robert William
Pickton) where the defence have just concluded a lengthy negotiation
to insure that they have sufficient money to defend the accused.
I do think the UK has gone backwards in recent years, esp. in denying
the right to keep silent and talk to counsel before interrogation. I
haven't been able to figure out exactly what that's about, but it
can't be a good thing.
All countries have their 'bad' cases, but in the USA these seem to be
the rule, rather than the exception.
F
Fred
...
>
> All in all, we do. Like any system designed by humans, there are
> mistakes and misdeeds. All other nations have errors and misdeeds
as
> well, because like us, their systems are designed and run by humans
as
> well. How about we do the best we can do and eliminate problems as
we
> come to them? Or don't you believe in doing one's best? Are you
one of
> those idealists who actually believes there is such a thing as
human
> perfection?
Well, thanks for agreeing with me. I've never seen human perfection
and don't expect to. I think the Governor said it best when he said
that it was wrong to keep executing people while trying to fix the
system. That's like the Red Cross continuing to distribute blood
while trying to get the HIV out of it. Bloody tough luck if you got
one of those units! Bloody tough luck if you got executed wrongly
while the legislature does nothing.
Times you don't want to hear "Oops!":-
From your lawyer.
From your dentist.
From your proctologist.
From your government.
From your ...
F
Strong Eagle
JETman
May well be... I only know the circumstances of the releases...
--
Regards,
JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)
Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......
JETman
I don't think that Neal is contesting the McDuff case. However, I
believe that at least a couple inmates here in Texas have been released
based on DNA evidence, (or the lact of).
JETman
The current makeup and operation of the Pardons 'n Parole Board in Texas
is a sham...
Fred
Let me make a different hypothetical proposition. Let us assume that
I have a device, computer, TV, whatever, that lets me view any place,
any time. I can look at any crime committed anywhere, and see with
certainty who did the killing.
In one afternoon I would shut down the entire US criminal legal
system.
Now, YOU prove that my hypothesis is wrong. You prove that, as a
result, I would not be responsible for the dismissal, arrest and
imprisonment of an astonishing number of police officers, prosecutors
and judges.
F
Neal Atkins
<stron...@motherearth.net> wrote:
>> Why don't YOU consider that there is no evidence or indication that
>> ANY "innocent" person has been executed in Texas.
>>
>> Will you only be happy when all the murderers like McDuff are freed
>> from death row and free to kill some more?
>
>I will be happy when innocent people are not executed.
"Don't worry, be happy". You see, there is no indication that anyone
"innocent" has been executed in Texas since 1973. Feel better?
> See, your problem is you
>don't care if a few innocent people fall through the cracks as long as we get the
>guilty ones. I would rather let a few of the guilty ones slip through the cracks
>in order to prevent innocent people from being killed.
No, you want to let them all out.
> I have a strong moral
>ground for this. What grounds do you stand upon that would permit the execution of
>innocent people?
Who's pulling up the strawman of "executing innocents"? It hasn't
happened. So quit worrying about the sky falling.
>
>Don't get me wrong. I'm in favor of the death penalty. I'm opposed to killing
>innocent people, and given the current judicial climate in Texas, I have no problem
>in seeing every last case reviewed. They wouldn't do that in Illinois; that is why
>Ryan acted.
Every case is reviewed. Endlessly. How many more years and how many
more "reviews" do you want for the guy that gunned down Officer Ralph
Abelenado in 1978? No question he did it. But he was high on speed
and he was a dealer. Does that exempt him from the consequences of
his actions? Should he be let out because 24 years on death row is
"cruel and unusual"?
How about Johnny Paul Penry? He's been on death row almost as long.
He raped, strangled and stabbed to death a woman. But he plays at
being "mentally retarded". You ready to let him out?
Richard J
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E230C53...@hotmail.com...
>
>>danh wrote:
>>
>>>"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3E2192F...@hotmail.com...
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>I think he
>>>
>>>
>>>>should have reviewed each case individually, and commuted the ones where
>>>>he had doubts. Instead, he gave a blanket commutation. THAT's not
>>>>just, just a lazy man's way.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sigh. The problem is that there is so much wrong with the process, that
>>>it's impossible to determine both innocence/guilt and meriting the dp.
>>
>>That is crap. There are some cases where there is no doubt of guilt.
>
>
> Compound sentences can be confusing.
And who was speaking of compound sentencing?
To reiterate, both guilt *and* merit
> must be established before a death sentence can be given.
Actually, in Texas and other states, guilt and sentencing are two
separate things. First is the guilt phase
of the trial which establishes a person is guilty of capital murder
beyond reasonable doubt. If found guilty, both prosecution and defense
present their case for and against the death penalty if the prosecution
seeks that. There is no more compound sentencing in a capital murder
case than in any other cases. The main difference is that in some
states, juries decide the punishment following guidelines set forth
under the penal code of that state based upon the evidence presented.
In Texas, this process is even used in traffic court jury trials.
Even when there
> is no doubt of guilt, the question of merit can remain ambiguous. It's bad
> enough that in IL, far more men have been found factually innocent than the
> number executed, but when we add in the question of merit, there is such
> great opportunity for error that the only ethical thing to do is commute
> all.
>
>
>> It's
>>
>>>impossible to discern whether a competent lawyer would have been able to
>>>save the lives of those convicted.
>>
>>Sometimes yes, and sometimes not. That depends upon the merits of each
>>case. Some cases where the defendant confesses and there is
>>overwhelming evidence, such as videos of the murder and DNA evidence
>>couldn't be helped by the 'Dream Team'.
>
>
> Again Richard, many people are serving prison terms as punishment for their
> confession to murder.
That is true. Some of these confessed to capital murder as a result of
plea bargains for life imprisonment. They chose not to take a chance on
the death penalty. Others took the chance and were found guilty, but
the jury or judge (depending upon the state where the case is tried) did
not met the criteria for the death penalty and received life instead.
Some choose to take the chance, and some pay for it with their lives.
In Texas, we have people who confess to capital murder who get a life
sentence instead of death. That is why each case is tried on its own
merits.
Competent lawyers undoubtably make the difference
> between life and death. One wonders why dp proponents so fervently want
> miserable representation for the accused.
Better lawyers DO make a difference. That's why Illinois already took
steps to improve the qualifications of capital murder defense lawyers
and the funding for them. (Just as Texas has, incidentally)
>
>
>>One can't tell whether those on death
>>
>>>row truly merited the dp or whether they were just unlucky.
>>
>>One can if each case is examined, tell which cases were 'slam dunks'
>>because of the irrefutable nature of the evidence.
>
>
> Merit is rarely a slam dunk issue. Possibly never.
There are cases where guilt or merit is not the question.
>
>
>>>In the face of a grossly broken system, the only remediation is to junk
>>
> it.
>
>>>This is the same approach we would use for a car. We should care as
>>
> much
>
>>>for humans. Ryan did.
>>>
>>>Ya'll need a new slogan. Instead of "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em
>>
> out",
>
>>>try "Kill 'em quick, before the facts are known".
>>
>>You need to look at the actual facts instead of using propaganda
>>tactics. The average time between trial (trial not the crime itself)
>>and execution in Texas is slightly more than nine years. That isn't
>>exactly a rush to execute.
>
>
> The facts are that most dp exonerations occur after a decade or more has
> passed. I think that's a travesty and that more should be done to get the
> facts to light sooner.
I don't think that is possible. Of the original thirteen exonerated in
Illinois prior to the latest commutations and pardons, most were cleared
through new technology in DNA testing that has only recently become
available.
Nevertheless, any execution that goes forth without
> resolving all the legitimate questions surrounding the crime and the
> punishment ought not to occur, regardless of whether Texans need to use all
> their fingers and toes to count the years.
>
>
Them's fightin' words, boy! In the words of the immortal John Wayne,
"Fill you hand you Son of a Bitch!" ;-)
Not all of us are illiterate in Texas. A few of us were smart enough to
get elected to the Presidency. (Although there is some doubt about Shrub)
The thing that bothers me the most about the blanket commutation is it
does not take into consideration that vast changes have ALREADY gone on
in Illinois. There are changes to the certification and training in
qualification of capital defense attorneys and the way indigent defense
is funded which alone are vast improvements. Other changes include the
availability of independent funding for defense attorneys to have their
own investigations, including DNA testing where appropriate.
Abolitionists would have everyone think nothing has been done, but quite
a lot has been done. The cases that were let go were tried prior to the
changes already made there, and are not representative of the measures
currently in force.
I'm sorry, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water just because
the water got dirty, you change to new water before bathing the next time.
Teflon
Richard J
> "Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E22CD31...@hotmail.com...
> ...
>
>>All in all, we do. Like any system designed by humans, there are
>>mistakes and misdeeds. All other nations have errors and misdeeds
>
> as
>
>>well, because like us, their systems are designed and run by humans
>
> as
>
>>well. How about we do the best we can do and eliminate problems as
>
> we
>
>>come to them? Or don't you believe in doing one's best? Are you
>
> one of
>
>>those idealists who actually believes there is such a thing as
>
> human
>
>>perfection?
>
>
> Well, thanks for agreeing with me. I've never seen human perfection
> and don't expect to. I think the Governor said it best when he said
> that it was wrong to keep executing people while trying to fix the
> system.
I agree. That's why each case would have been examined and individually
decided on. There were probably some cases which needed commuting or
outright pardons. There were also others which there is little doubt of
the appropriateness of the sentence. by his act, Ryan completely
discounted the latter. In doing so, he invalidated the efforts of the
men and women who served on those cases and completely bypassed the
system of justice already in place.
That's like the Red Cross continuing to distribute blood
> while trying to get the HIV out of it. Bloody tough luck if you got
> one of those units! Bloody tough luck if you got executed wrongly
> while the legislature does nothing.
I agree. Now show me the case since 173 where there is incontrovertible
proof of a wrongful execution in the US.
Teflon
Richard J
And just which of those cases was proven by incontrovertible evidence to
be a wrongful execution? Proven, mind you. There in lays the rub.
Teflon
Richard J
> Le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:14:54 -0600, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>>Ho, ho, ho. I suppose that you will continue to post this straw man for as
>>>long as you're on news:alt.activism.death-penalty, Richard, so there's no
>>>point in asking you to refrain from such disingenuity. Nor should we be
>>>surprised that a citizen of a country that is presently asking the leader
>>>of a foreign power to do the impossible, i.e. prove a negative under threat
>>>of invasion, is espousing the proof of a negative as the 'only criterion'
>>>for establishing post-execution innocence.
>>>
>>>However, for the benefit of those for whom your post was the first contact
>>>with your little charade, let us not forget that it is impossible to prove
>>>'innocence', before or after the execution of a death sentence. Are you to
>>>able to prove, for example, that you were not involved in the Great Train
>>>Robbery ? What about Project Northwood on 11 September 2001 in New York,
>>>Washington and Pennsylvania ?
>>>
>>>Nor should we forget that you are asking abolitionists to achieve something
>>>that your legal system currently does not permit. There is no procedure to
>>>'prove the innocence' of those executed. Nor do lawyers, civil rights
>>>activists or (especially) [capital punishment's] victims' families, have
>>>the financial means to investigate claims of innocence once the sentence is
>>>carried out. Efforts inevitably are concentrated in saving the living.
>>
>
>>I'm not asking yo to prove innocence, Desmond. I'm asking you to prove,
>>with irrefutable proof, that someone was actually executed for a crime
>>they did not commit.
>
>
>
> 'I'm not asking yo to prove innocence, Desmond. I'm asking you to
> prove, with irrefutable proof, that someone was actually executed for a
>
> Could someone else explain the irony in the above, to Richard, as I'm
> laughing too much ..?
>
>>That proof can be in the form of proof of someone
>>else's guilt, or plausible and provable confession to the crime.
>
>
> hear from FW or Jigsaw !! People confess to crimes that didn't commit. It
> happens all the time. That is why most jurisdictions require more than a
> confession, to secure a conviction.
>
> However, since you ask, consider the case of Dennis Stockton, executed in
> Virginia on 27 September 1995. The prosecution's star witness, Randy
> Bowman, later confessed to the crime, going so far as to talk to
> journalists and to sign affidavits stating that he was guilty.
> Nonetheless, Dennis Stockton was put to death.
>
> Or perhaps you don't consider that a 'provable confession'. In that case,
> could you explain why the confession that helped to send Roger Keith
> Coleman to Virginia's electric chair in 1982, _was_ a 'provable
> confession' ? The 'snitch' in question was Roger Matney, and he was
> awaiting sentencing in Buchanan County Gaol when Mr Coleman was placed in
> custody. Mr Matney later testified that Roger Coleman had told him of the
> night that he 'murdered' Wanda Fay McCoy.
>
> Perhaps you could explain to the group why confessions which send the
> accused to the electric chair are all right in your eyes, Richard, whilst
> those which threaten to exonerate them, aren't ?
To me a provable confession is one where the one confessing tells
suspect of the case which only the murderer could have known.
In reality, I suspect that the 'smoking gun' for abolitionists will one
day come not from such a confession, but scientific forensic evidence
such as has already exonerates some of those on death row. I doubt
there will be a confession such as I described, but put it in there for
the same reason i put in that the burden of proof only need meet civil
court standards, to make things easier for you guys. Since it has not,
there is not hard proof of a wrongful execution at this time.
>
>
>>Hell, Desmond, I've even asked you to prove the execution of an innocent
>>using the lesser burden of proof of a civil case and the abolitionist
>>movement is unable to do that. That requires only 51% of the evidence
>>support the claim.
>>
>>In short, you have no proof what so ever of ANY TYPE! All you have are
>>smoke screens and suppositions. This is the single most glaring
>>weakness in the abolitionist argument, and you know it. That's why you
>>attempt to discredit my question. YOU CANNOT ANSWER IT.
>
>
> Richard, the above two paragraphs are the work of an idiot, and from our
> personal correspondence via e-mail, I know that you're anything but. Go
> back, read the cack that you just wrote, and try to understand that there
> is _no procedure_, be it penal or civil, to exonerate a defendant once
> executed.
>
Which completely ignores what I asked for. I didn't ask for you to
prove the innocence of the dead man or woman by new evidence, but the
guilt of someone for a crime another was executed for. You guys have so
far been unable to do that, either.
Now before you jump on this laughing, let me remind you there have been
instances, one of them in the thirteen you are so proud of reminding us
were exonerated in Illinois, where DNA provided not only exoneration,
but the capture of the real culprit.
Teflon
Richard J
You might shut down the system, and you might only improve it by
eliminating mistakes before the appellate courts or outside
investigators do.
Teflon
Mike Smith
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:30:33 -0600, dans l'article <7C04C5EA869AEC2A.69EC627B...@lp.airnews.net>, Mike Smith <m...@wt.net> a dit ...
>
>>>>>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that anyone
>>>>>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>>>>>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>>>>>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
>
>>>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>
>>>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>>>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>>>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>>>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
>
>> Are you a liar or are you an imbecile?
>> From http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/graham.htm :
>
>It's rare to find such stupidity as you demonstrate, without reading one of
>FuckWit's posts, and I started to wonder how you managed to post, with your
>IQ only slightly higher than room temperature. Then I saw 'austin.general'
>in the headers, and I realised that the good ol' boys were in town, and
>that intelligent debate had gone out of the window.
Rare? I'll assume you have not heard of a mirror.
I also note all of your cites....
Oh wait... there are none. I guess he's in love with his delusions and
cannot comprehend any facts. Oh well.............
<snipped the rest of this imbecile's stupid rant>
Mike Smith
Kwag7693
Date: 1/12/03 8:02 PM Eastern
>Opposition to the DP does not go hand in hand with wanting murderers to
>walk the streets. I (and many other DP opponents) am quite, quite happy
>to see murderers rot in strict confinement for their crimes, secure in
>the knowledge that they will never walk the streets again.
How strict? Solitary for life? How many people to a prisoner at a time? If
you make an imprisonment exacting enough that the murderer poses as close to
zero threat to others as possible, you may well be condemning the person to a
life they won't find worth living.
Kevin
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Date: 1/13/2003 6:28 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <12ivva...@lievre.voute.net>
le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:00 -0600, dans l'article
<3E234568...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
{ snip }
>> Try this:
>>
>> http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html
> And just which of those cases was proven by incontrovertible evidence to
> be a wrongful execution? Proven, mind you. There in lays the rub.
No, Richard: therein lies the bullshit. It is currently impossible to
'prove' innocence when an execution has taken place (or even before it has
taken place, but that's for another day). Of course, the cynical might ask
why, if the state is so sure that its death sentences are safe, they
consistently refuse to release the DNA of those whom it has killed.
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
Because under prevailing wisdom, the suspect was found guilty by a jury based
on available evidence.
Strong Eagle
You miss the point. The law requires "beyond a reasonable doubt", not the "incontrovertible" crap you espouse. In each of the
cases cited, there was plenty of doubt.
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:28:44 +0000
>
>
>{ snip barely literate, borderline retard, ejaculations of ignorance }
>
>> Organization: Road Runner - Texas
>
>Ho, ho, ho ... hands up who's surprised ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:28:44 +0000
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:07:45 +0000
>
>le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:56:22 GMT, dans l'article
><3e22fd4...@news-server.austin.rr.com>,
>Neal 'I'm Not that Bright' Atkins <nat...@austin.rr.com> a dit ...
>
>>>> >Your moaning won't change anything. Those 156 souls have been saved,
>and
>>>> >nothing can put them back on death row (unless they murder again, which
>has
>>>> >is in fact been shown to be statistically less likely than your or my
>>>> >killing someone).
>
>>>> Oh, did they find geeeeezus while they were sitting on death row? Now
>>>> your next step is to "free" them from the life without parole
>>>> sentence, right? I mean, they should be free to live a life that
>>>> maximizes their "self-esteem", right?
>
>>>> >Abolitionists have once again saved thousands of lives. One of them
>might
>>>> >have been yours, or your wife's/daughter's. At least try to show a bit
>of
>>>> >gratitude.
>
>>>> Yeah. Putting murderers back on the street is really saving lives. I
>>>> guess they won't kill any more cons or prison guards.
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you send them a letter and invite them over for dinner?
>
>>>When are you going to take a moment to consider that INNOCENT people have
>been
>>>executed? Does not this matter at all in your zeal to kill?
>
>> Why don't YOU consider that there is no evidence or indication that
>> ANY "innocent" person has been executed in Texas.
>
>Rubbish, of course, and you know it. There is a world of difference
>between 'indication', 'evidence', and 'posthumous pardon'.
>
>> Will you only be happy when all the murderers like McDuff are freed
>> from death row and free to kill some more?
>
>Since it was the Conservatives who let him out, perhaps you should consider
>shutting up, and not making such an arse of yourself ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:07:45 +0000
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:55:40 +0000
>
>le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:10:10 +0000, dans l'article
><itruva...@lievre.voute.net>, Desmond Coughlan
><pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Ho, ho, ho. I suppose that you will continue to post this straw man for as
>> long as you're on news:alt.activism.death-penalty, Richard, so there's no
>> point in asking you to refrain from such disingenuity.
>
>Oooooops ... :-(
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:55:40 +0000
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:58:11 +0000
>
>Le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:14:54 -0600, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Ho, ho, ho. I suppose that you will continue to post this straw man for
>as
>>> long as you're on news:alt.activism.death-penalty, Richard, so there's no
>LOL !!
>
> 'I'm not asking yo to prove innocence, Desmond. I'm asking you to
> prove, with irrefutable proof, that someone was actually executed for a
> crime they did not commit.'
>
>Could someone else explain the irony in the above, to Richard, as I'm
>laughing too much ..?
>
>> That proof can be in the form of proof of someone
>> else's guilt, or plausible and provable confession to the crime.
>
>'provable confession' ?? LMAO !! This is the sort of stuff I expect to
>hear from FW or Jigsaw !! People confess to crimes that didn't commit. It
>happens all the time. That is why most jurisdictions require more than a
>confession, to secure a conviction.
>
>However, since you ask, consider the case of Dennis Stockton, executed in
>Virginia on 27 September 1995. The prosecution's star witness, Randy
>Bowman, later confessed to the crime, going so far as to talk to
>journalists and to sign affidavits stating that he was guilty.
>Nonetheless, Dennis Stockton was put to death.
>
>Or perhaps you don't consider that a 'provable confession'. In that case,
>could you explain why the confession that helped to send Roger Keith
>Coleman to Virginia's electric chair in 1982, _was_ a 'provable
>confession' ? The 'snitch' in question was Roger Matney, and he was
>awaiting sentencing in Buchanan County Gaol when Mr Coleman was placed in
>custody. Mr Matney later testified that Roger Coleman had told him of the
>night that he 'murdered' Wanda Fay McCoy.
>
>Perhaps you could explain to the group why confessions which send the
>accused to the electric chair are all right in your eyes, Richard, whilst
>those which threaten to exonerate them, aren't ?
>
>> Hell, Desmond, I've even asked you to prove the execution of an innocent
>> using the lesser burden of proof of a civil case and the abolitionist
>> movement is unable to do that. That requires only 51% of the evidence
>> support the claim.
>>
>> In short, you have no proof what so ever of ANY TYPE! All you have are
>> smoke screens and suppositions. This is the single most glaring
>> weakness in the abolitionist argument, and you know it. That's why you
>> attempt to discredit my question. YOU CANNOT ANSWER IT.
>
>Richard, the above two paragraphs are the work of an idiot, and from our
>personal correspondence via e-mail, I know that you're anything but. Go
>back, read the cack that you just wrote, and try to understand that there
>is _no procedure_, be it penal or civil, to exonerate a defendant once
>executed.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:58:11 +0000
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:10:10 +0000
>
>le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:42:51 -0600, dans l'article
><3E22D06B...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>>>>>it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that
>anyone
>>>>>executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>>>>Oh, there's always assertions. What there is not is proof of an
>>>>innocent being executed in Texas.
>
>>> Why would Texas be any different than Illinois? Chances are good it would
>be
>>> worse.
>
>> Which person innocent of the crime of murder has been proven to be
>> executed anywhere in the US since 1973. I say 1973 because of the
>> Furnam ruling and the improvements in modern forensics so you will have
>> some chance of actually proving your claim.
>>
>> Be my guest. Name ONE case in the US since 1973 where is has been
>> PROVEN that someone was executed for a crime they did not commit.
>
>Ho, ho, ho. I suppose that you will continue to post this straw man for as
>long as you're on news:alt.activism.death-penalty, Richard, so there's no
>point in asking you to refrain from such disingenuity. Nor should we be
>surprised that a citizen of a country that is presently asking the leader
>of a foreign power to do the impossible, i.e. prove a negative under threat
>of invasion, is espousing the proof of a negative as the 'only criterion'
>for establishing post-execution innocence.
>
>However, for the benefit of those for whom your post was the first contact
>with your little charade, let us not forget that it is impossible to prove
>'innocence', before or after the execution of a death sentence. Are you to
>able to prove, for example, that you were not involved in the Great Train
>Robbery ? What about Project Northwood on 11 September 2001 in New York,
>Washington and Pennsylvania ?
>
>Nor should we forget that you are asking abolitionists to achieve something
>that your legal system currently does not permit. There is no procedure to
>'prove the innocence' of those executed. Nor do lawyers, civil rights
>activists or (especially) [capital punishment's] victims' families, have
>the financial means to investigate claims of innocence once the sentence is
>carried out. Efforts inevitably are concentrated in saving the living.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:28:01 +0000
>
>le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:00 -0600, dans l'article
><3E234568...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Try this:
>>>
>>> http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html
>
>> And just which of those cases was proven by incontrovertible evidence to
>> be a wrongful execution? Proven, mind you. There in lays the rub.
>
>No, Richard: therein lies the bullshit. It is currently impossible to
>'prove' innocence when an execution has taken place (or even before it has
>taken place, but that's for another day). Of course, the cynical might ask
>why, if the state is so sure that its death sentences are safe, they
>consistently refuse to release the DNA of those whom it has killed.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:17:30 +0000
>
>le Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:30:33 -0600, dans l'article
><7C04C5EA869AEC2A.69EC627B...@lp.airnews.net>, Mike
>Smith <m...@wt.net> a dit ...
>
>>>>>> it is interesting to note that there has never been an assertion that
>anyone
>>>>>> executed in Texas was not guilty...
>
>>>>>David Spence and Gary Graham would probably disagree with you about that.
>>>>>If they hadn't been killed by the Auschwitz of the America's (sic).
>
>>>> Gary Graham was undoubtedly guilty.
>
>>>Guilty my 'ass' (sic). Convicted on the basis of one eyewitness (who
>>>admitted that she was shortsighted and that she wasn't wearing her
>>>spectacles that night) who saw him for a fraction of a second, through a
>>>car 'windshield' (sic), from a distance of 40 feet, in the dark.
>
>> Are you a liar or are you an imbecile?
>> From http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/graham.htm :
>
>It's rare to find such stupidity as you demonstrate, without reading one of
>FuckWit's posts, and I started to wonder how you managed to post, with your
>IQ only slightly higher than room temperature. Then I saw 'austin.general'
>in the headers, and I realised that the good ol' boys were in town, and
>that intelligent debate had gone out of the window.
>
>'prodeathpenalty.com' ... LMAO !! Why not try for a less objective (want
>me to explain that big word to you ?) site, like 'hang-em-high.org' ?
>
>> "Bobby Lambert was shot in a dimly lit parking lot.
>>
>> False. Bernadine Skillern, the unwavering eyewitness had no problem
>
>Ho, ho, ho ... here's a tip for you, mouth breather: instead of copying and
>pasting from the anti-justice site 'prodeathpenalty.com', why not conduct
>your own research ? Say it out loud ... 're-sear-ch'. Put your fingertip
>under the words as you're reading them, if it makes it easier for you.
>
>'unwavering eyewitness' ... LMFAO, this is like taking 'candy' (sic) from a
>'kid' (sic) !!
>
>Ms Skillern did not in fact look at photographs of suspects until a
>fortnight after the 'offense' (sic). When she did so, she stated that the
>photograph of Mr Graham looked like the assailant, but that she could not
>be sure. The day after that, she saw Mr Graham in a line-up. He was the
>only one in the line-up who had also been in the photographs. Hardly
>surprising then that she picked him out.
>
>{ snip remainder of copy and paste from 'hang-em-high.org' }
>
>Maybe it's something in the air below the Mason-Dixie line that makes you
>people as dense as lead. Who knows, but in any case, you're in the running
>for 'AADP's most idiotic poster', but beware: the competition from FuckWit
>(occasionally referred to as 'A Planet Visitor') is stiff.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty,austin.general
>Subject: Re: Illinois Empties Death Row
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:17:30 +0000
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Richard J
> le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:00 -0600, dans l'article <3E234568...@hotmail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>>Try this:
>>>
>>>http://capitaldefenseweekly.com/25casesdraft.html
>>
>
>>And just which of those cases was proven by incontrovertible evidence to
>>be a wrongful execution? Proven, mind you. There in lays the rub.
>
>
> 'prove' innocence when an execution has taken place (or even before it has
> taken place, but that's for another day). Of course, the cynical might ask
> why, if the state is so sure that its death sentences are safe, they
> consistently refuse to release the DNA of those whom it has killed.
>
Desmond, you are the one throwing the male bovine excrement. I don't
require you prove someone innocence if that is too difficult for you. i
asked for you to show me someone who committed the crime of murder
another got wrongfully executed for. Not only that, I asked you to use
a lesser burden of proof than is required in a criminal court. You've
done neither, only yelled like a bitch about how you cannot prove innocence.
Forget about proving the innocence of an executed murderer. Forget
about DNA from executed men and women. Show me conclusive proof that
someone was executed for a crime in which they had no part because they
were not involved with it. A crime which new evidence positively proves
someone besides the executed committed and in which the executed
criminal did not facilitate the act.
Surely if as many have been wrongfully executed as you suppose, one
would turn up somewhere, don't you think?
Teflon
Richard J
So?
I'll go this far. I believe in the use of the death penalty, but if the
laws were changed in Texas to actual Life Without The Possibility of
Parole, I would vote to do away with the death penalty. We can dig a
big hole in the ground, build a prison underground, and when the
murderers are convicted, they go in not to come out except for legal
hearings. I wouldn't even bring them out to bury them. Build an
incinerator into the prison and burn them to ashes upon their death, and
put the ashes in the sewer.
Oh yes. I really don't care if they think life is worth living like
that or not. When they are able to bring their victims back to life,
then we will think of giving them a better existence.
Yes, there are some things worse than death.
Teflon
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
kwag...@aol.com (Kwag7693) wrote:
Well, Kevin, I'm no murderer lover. I really don't give a flying
whatsit whether a convicted murderer's life is or isn't worth living.
If we don't kill them, though, those who are innocent have a chance to
exonerate themselves. Such a chance would not exist if those people had
been killed.
Moreover, we haven't undertaken a judgement that isn't really ours to
make - that a person should be killed.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))