Why no preseved UK Battleships ?
dSmith
I have question about UK Battleships. Was there ever any thought in
1960's Britian to preseve the Vangard or one of the KGV class ships?
Since the Cutty Sark and the Victory are still in existance there was
presidence of maintaining important historical vessels. I would have
thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
prevented this?
My humble apologies if this the 100th time this question has been
asked. I did try to find the info for myself first.
Regards, Dennis Smith
Per Andersson
>After checking the FAQ and scouring Mr. Toppan's comprehesive web site
>I have question about UK Battleships. Was there ever any thought in
>1960's Britian to preseve the Vangard or one of the KGV class ships?
>Since the Cutty Sark and the Victory are still in existance there was
>presidence of maintaining important historical vessels. I would have
>thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
>last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
>prevented this?
No money.
The UK was in a rather poor financial shape after WWII, and remained
so for quite some time...
Per Andersson
"Some kind of central planning seems to be the object of
most environmental activists. But why is a Politburo expected
to work better for plants and animals than it did for Russians?"
Paul Cassidy
dSmith <enter...@texoma.net> wrote in message
news:37713285....@news.texoma.net...
> After checking the FAQ and scouring Mr. Toppan's comprehesive web site
> I have question about UK Battleships. Was there ever any thought in
> 1960's Britian to preseve the Vangard or one of the KGV class ships?
> Since the Cutty Sark and the Victory are still in existance there was
> presidence of maintaining important historical vessels. I would have
> thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
> last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
> prevented this?
>
They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live, it
was her!
Paul J. Adam
<enter...@texoma.net> writes
>After checking the FAQ and scouring Mr. Toppan's comprehesive web site
>I have question about UK Battleships. Was there ever any thought in
>1960's Britian to preseve the Vangard or one of the KGV class ships?
Thought, yes, but no money, and the ships represented respectable
quantities of valuable steel.
>Since the Cutty Sark and the Victory are still in existance there was
>presidence of maintaining important historical vessels. I would have
>thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
>last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
>prevented this?
Money. I'd personally have wanted to see Warspite preserved, but she
was in very poor condition.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Andrew C. Toppan
> thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
> last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
> prevented this?
Right after WWII, when the "famous" BBs were going out of service, there
was no money for such endeavours, and the ships were in terrible
condition anyway.
By the late 1950's, when the newer BBs were discarded, there _might_ have
been funding available...but those ships had relatively little combat
record, so they weren't the sort of ships that would inspire great
outpourings of support.
By the 1960's, it was too late.
--
Andrew Toppan --- acto...@gwi.net --- "I speak only for myself"
US Naval & Shipbuilding Museum/USS Salem Online - http://www.uss-salem.org/
Naval History, World Navies Today, Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more
Andrew C. Toppan
> They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live, it
> was her!
I would not want to be the museum tasked with preserving that floating
scrapyard!
Nik Simpson
dSmith wrote in message <37717aa4....@news.texoma.net>...
>On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:07:24 +0200, "Paul Cassidy"
><paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>
>>They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live,
it
>>was her!
>>
>even Renown. Maybe I'm in danger of showing my ingnorance but was
>Warspite's record that exemplary?
Jutland
Narvik
Matapan
Sicily
D Day
...
Those are just ones that come to me off the top of my head! Basically at the
end of WWII, Warspite had a longer list of battle honours over the course of
two world wars than any ship afloat (or sunk for that matter.)
--
Nik Simpson
Peter Skelton
>dSmith (enter...@texoma.net) was seen to write:
>> thought the KGV's would be important or most certantly the Vangard as
>> last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
>> prevented this?
>
>Right after WWII, when the "famous" BBs were going out of service, there
>was no money for such endeavours, and the ships were in terrible
>condition anyway.
>
>By the late 1950's, when the newer BBs were discarded, there _might_ have
>been funding available...but those ships had relatively little combat
>record, so they weren't the sort of ships that would inspire great
>outpourings of support.
>
>By the 1960's, it was too late.
The only WWI veteran in good enough shape to be an easy preservation target
was Renown.
Two of the R's, IIRC, had been at Jutland, and were possibly good enough to
preserve given money, as was Malaya. Valiant, QE (missed Jutland but was at
the Dardenalles) and especially Warspite fought very hard wars.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/389-1705
skel...@home.com
dSmith
<paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live, it
>was her!
>
I'm curious as to why you would pick Warspite -vs- Queen Elizibeth or
even Renown. Maybe I'm in danger of showing my ingnorance but was
Warspite's record that exemplary?
Thanks, dSmith
dSmith
wrote:
>By the late 1950's, when the newer BBs were discarded, there _might_ have
>been funding available...but those ships had relatively little combat
>record, so they weren't the sort of ships that would inspire great
>outpourings of support.
>
>By the 1960's, it was too late.
>
That may closest yet to the reason why. That and the still recovering
economy. I would venture to say if the Hood had survived she would
have been preserved. England had a lot of ego wrapped up in her. Not
to say that was a bad thing. She was a beautiful ship.
Regards, dSmith
mike paterson
>
>
> Dennis Smith,
I believe even if one of the British Battleships were preserved there
still is no guarantee that it would still survive into the 21st Century.
There are instances where valuable items that are in national collections
are still cut up if they believe that they are not wanted or require sums
of money to preserve them. Examples: The Blackburn Beverly at the RAF
museum and the B1 Vulcan/Victor (sorry cannot remember which one) at
Cosford. Some one pointed out in this post that it boils down to money, it
is not only that, there is a general malaise in the UK towards things old.
Sure we have castles et al. but recent Industrial Heritage, (last 200
years or so) such as ships, aircraft and Steam Engines are left to a small
bunch of amateurs and the funding is up to the good will of the
population, central funding is a bit thin on the ground. Some of these so
called museums are little more than Scrap yards putting off the
inevitable.
Mike
Eugene Griessel
To add to this, at the time that there were still British battleships
that could have been preserved the official attitude to them was not
one of great affection. They were seen as obsolete dinosaurs draining
away funding desperately needed for better things. I think that in
the prevailing atmosphere the overwhelming emotion in the Admiralty
was one of relief rather than regret when the last battleship was
finally disposed of.
Eugene L Griessel eug...@dynagen.co.za
www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat Page - www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/eug3.htm
Thought for the day .......
Civilization: Stone age => Bronze age => Iron age => Garbage.
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<eug...@dynagen.co.za> writes
>
>To add to this, at the time that there were still British battleships
>that could have been preserved the official attitude to them was not
>one of great affection. They were seen as obsolete dinosaurs draining
>away funding desperately needed for better things. I think that in
>the prevailing atmosphere the overwhelming emotion in the Admiralty
>was one of relief rather than regret when the last battleship was
>finally disposed of.
>
>
Harbour and flying the flag of The Reserve Fleet.
You have to look at 3 considerations.
1) Her condition.
2) Her technical situation in an ever increasing technical world.
3) The cost of keeping her going for whatever reason.
1) Externally she `looked` good and as far as we were concerned she was
good. She was clean inside and outside where it mattered, we had very
good food from the very good galleys, the washrooms were very good with
plenty of hot water etc. But, up forward in the bows were the `heads`
(Toilets) were, only part of them were open, (we did only have a small
crew by comparrison), the rest roped off and in a poor state. Up on the
superstructure, you could put your hands through the rust holes. That
was a sad sight and a couple of years ago when I was invited to go on
the present Vanguard, I commented that the old Vanguard was a sorry site
and I would hate to see this one in the same state.
The messes were the 40`s and 50`s style and to refurbish them would have
cost too much.
2) We were coming into the Guided Missile age. Smaller and faster ships
with more punch. we all commented at the time that the battleship was
dead. Yes a lot could have been built into her, a hell of a lot. AND, if
she were sunk, a lot would go down.
and 3) There was just not the interest in keeping old ships then and to
keep H.M.S.Vanguard in even the lowest cost synario would have been too
much, no tax payer would have stood for it.
She was a grand old ship and members of the Vanguard Vets still reflect
on what a fine ship she was. The camaraderie, as usual was terrific and
I have many happy memories of her, even though she went nowhere, only up
and down on the tide in Pompey Harbour. I wonder where Harry Tew 76 Mess
`Rum Rat` is now. I won half a tot off him. If your out there Harry,
i`ll buy you a double!!
Yes I would `now`, have liked to have seen her saved, but I would not
like to be reponsible for finding the money for her upkeep.
Mike
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N.Sh...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk
The `system` to find long lost Royal Navy shipmates
Member of the H.M.S.Vangurd Veterans
M.J.Powell
<paul.c...@wxs.nl> writes
>> I have question about UK Battleships. Was there ever any thought in
>> 1960's Britian to preseve the Vangard or one of the KGV class ships?
>> presidence of maintaining important historical vessels. I would have
>> last of her line. Was it lack of funding or lack of interest that
>> prevented this?
>>
>
>
>was her!
She didn't die easily, IIRC.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell.
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> writes
>>They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live, it
>>was her!
>
>She didn't die easily, IIRC.
>
Devonport Dockyard in 1915. She stranded in Prussia Cove on April 23rd
1947 on her way to Faslane to be broken up. She was scrapped as she lay.
They know when they are going to the breakers. H.M.S.Vanguard ran
aground in the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour on her way to be scrapped.
Mike
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N. Shipmates
Paul Cassidy
Nik Simpson <n...@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:4n3$UGev#GA....@newstoo.hiwaay.net...
live,
> it
> >>was her!
> >>
> >even Renown. Maybe I'm in danger of showing my ingnorance but was
> >Warspite's record that exemplary?
>
>
> Narvik
> Matapan
> Sicily
> D Day
> ...
>
> Those are just ones that come to me off the top of my head! Basically at
the
> end of WWII, Warspite had a longer list of battle honours over the course
of
> two world wars than any ship afloat (or sunk for that matter.)
>
Warspite was one of the most advanced ships in the world when she was
launched. She was good enough to last and fight in the second world war,
when most of the other battleships were scrapped after WW1.
Add in the fact that she still holds the record for the longest range guns
hit against another moving ship (Matapan).
Then add the fact that she survived two full circle under the noses of the
High Seas fleet and everything they could throw at her. And the fact that
she was one of the few ships to survive a hit from a FX-1400 remote
controlled glider bomb.
Yes, Warspite was a very special ship!
Andrew C. Toppan
> They know when they are going to the breakers. H.M.S.Vanguard ran
> aground in the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour on her way to be scrapped.
No. She very nearly ran through some piers - but the tugs got her under
control, and she never touched anything.
Rex Bradley
<acto...@gwi.net> writes
>Michael `Mike` Crowe (mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk) was seen to write:
>> They know when they are going to the breakers. H.M.S.Vanguard ran
>> aground in the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour on her way to be scrapped.
>
>No. She very nearly ran through some piers - but the tugs got her under
>control, and she never touched anything.
>
grounded, one of her anchors was dropped into about 15 feet of water in
the attempt to stop her, chiefs on the bow waving to us to get out of
the way were waved at by the crowd , we thought they were being friendly
:)
--
Rex
Chuck Till
perhaps in the UK too. This was one of the factors in the rapid
eliminaton of steam railroad locomotives in the 1950s.
Eugene Griessel
>>They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to live, it
>>was her!
>
>She didn't die easily, IIRC.
At least she was spared the indignity of the breakers yard. I have
some pictures taken at Inverkeithing where a couple of R class and
Rodney and Nelson were being broken up - a sad and sorry site.
dSmith
<paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>Warspite was one of the most advanced ships in the world when she was
>launched. She was good enough to last and fight in the second world war,
>when most of the other battleships were scrapped after WW1.
That part I knew.
>
>Add in the fact that she still holds the record for the longest range guns
>hit against another moving ship (Matapan).
>
This I didn't know. What was the "guesstimate" range of this hit ?
>Then add the fact that she survived two full circle under the noses of the
>High Seas fleet and everything they could throw at her. And the fact that
>she was one of the few ships to survive a hit from a FX-1400 remote
>controlled glider bomb.
>
Didn't know this as well. Can you give more info on this? Was the
FX-1400 a German Weapon? What other RN ships were struck by it?
>Yes, Warspite was a very special ship!
>
Did you have a personal connection with Warspite?
Thanks for the education,
dSmith
dSmith
<mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I served on H.M.S.Vanguard right at the end when she was in Portsmouth
>Harbour and flying the flag of The Reserve Fleet.
>You have to look at 3 considerations.
>1) Her condition.
>2) Her technical situation in an ever increasing technical world.
>3) The cost of keeping her going for whatever reason.
>
(Lots of good info snipped for brevity)
>
>Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N.Sh...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk
>The `system` to find long lost Royal Navy shipmates
>Member of the H.M.S.Vangurd Veterans
Thank you for such a detailed insider view of the situation as it was.
As to item 2, I was thinking more toward a museum piece not active
duty so I don't think the missle issue or the general state of her
technology would have mattered. Everything else you typed about
condition and costs explains it very well indeed. It would seem there
just wasn't enough money with out goverment or perhaps Royal
intervention that could have spared at least one example of England's
deadnoughts.
Thanks again,
dSmith
dSmith
wrote:
> It would seem there
>just wasn't enough money with out goverment or perhaps Royal
>intervention that could have spared at least one example of England's
>deadnoughts.
>
>Thanks again,
>dSmith
Err dreadnoughts ---pls excuse the typo
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<br...@brad.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <L4xc3.59$ZW6...@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Andrew C. Toppan"
><acto...@gwi.net> writes
>>Michael `Mike` Crowe (mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk) was seen to write:
>>> They know when they are going to the breakers. H.M.S.Vanguard ran
>>> aground in the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour on her way to be scrapped.
I have not seen it, but I have been told that there is an aerial photo
of her trying to nip into the pub for a last run ashore. She made the
`run ashore` but was not served a pint. Pub closed?
>>
>>No. She very nearly ran through some piers - but the tugs got her under
>>control, and she never touched anything.
At that point in Portsmouth Harbour, there are no piers. The nearest
pier is the one where the Isle of Wight Passenger ferry goes from and
that is `behind` the old coaling barges. The car ferry terminal, at that
time in Broad Street, is tucked around the corner. I believe that she
went aground where the old car chain ferry used to leave Portsmouth for
Gosport, long since gone.
>>
>Depends what we're calling *aground* here, I was there, her bows
>grounded, one of her anchors was dropped into about 15 feet of water in
>the attempt to stop her, chiefs on the bow waving to us to get out of
>the way were waved at by the crowd , we thought they were being friendly
>:)
Well they were, they were saying `Hang on we will come and pick you up
for a trip round the harbour`
Mike:-))
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N. Shipmates
and a member of Vanguard Vets.
Philippe Nomérange
> >High Seas fleet and everything they could throw at her. And the fact that
> >she was one of the few ships to survive a hit from a FX-1400 remote
> >controlled glider bomb.
> >
> Didn't know this as well. Can you give more info on this? Was the
> FX-1400 a German Weapon? What other RN ships were struck by it?
>
The FX-1400 was a German radio controlled glider bomb used from 1943.
It's main achievement is the sinking of the newest italian battleship
ROMA while on its way to surrendering to the Allies.
She was hit by one of these bombs and exploded.
After Warspite was hit also (and probably some others too, but I don't
know the names), the Allies had to trasfer more ships to the Med. as
reinforcements.
The weak spot of that weapon was that the controller plane (JU-88) had
to be rather close to it and became subject to air attacks and AA fire
from the escorts.
--
Philippe Nomerange
Keith Willshaw
> Didn't know this as well. Can you give more info on this? Was the
> FX-1400 a German Weapon? What other RN ships were struck by it?
>
from http://topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/gustin/gweapons.html
Fritz-X, also known as FX-1400, was the first successful guided bomb. It
consisted of a 1400kg armour-piercing bomb, fitted with four wings in a
cruciform arrangement, and a tail ring with spoilers for control. It was
usually carried by specially equipped Do 217 or He 177 bombers. In the
launch aircraft, an operator steered the bomb to its target using a radio
command link. Two hits with Fritz-X sank the Italian battleship Roma. Others
seriously damaged the Italia and the British battleship Warspite, sank the
cruiser Spartan, and damaged the cruisers Savannah and Uganda. Production of
Fritz-X was limited to about 1400.
Keith
ANDREW BREEN
Keith Willshaw <10057...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>dSmith <enter...@texoma.net> wrote in message
>news:3773182a....@news.texoma.net...
>
>
>> Didn't know this as well. Can you give more info on this? Was the
>> FX-1400 a German Weapon? What other RN ships were struck by it?
>>
Armour-piercing guided bomb - hardly a glider bomb as its glide was
really more of a controlled plummet.
>
>
>from http://topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/gustin/gweapons.html
>
>Fritz-X, also known as FX-1400, was the first successful guided bomb. It
>consisted of a 1400kg armour-piercing bomb, fitted with four wings in a
>cruciform arrangement, and a tail ring with spoilers for control. It was
>usually carried by specially equipped Do 217 or He 177 bombers. In the
>launch aircraft, an operator steered the bomb to its target using a radio
>command link. Two hits with Fritz-X sank the Italian battleship Roma. Others
>seriously damaged the Italia and the British battleship Warspite, sank the
>cruiser Spartan, and damaged the cruisers Savannah and Uganda. Production of
>Fritz-X was limited to about 1400.
First successful guided bomb, but not the first successful air-launched
guided weapon, as the Henschel Hs293 anti-shipping missile got into
service first. This was a winged missile, guided by radio control. IIRC
some versions had a small, primitive, TV camera in the nose with the
pictures going back to the bomb-aimer. Fritz-X, IIRC, had a similar
control system. There was a flare on the tail to help aiming, too.
Hs293 had a couple of unsuccesful outings before sinking the sloop
_Egret_ and damaging the destroyer _Athabaskan_ in Biscay in 1943. _Egret_
had an electronic warfare team on board when she was lost, showing that
the Admiralty already knew that they were dealing with radio-guided
weapons. Unfortunately their jammers weren't covering the right frequency
band, so Bayete! _Egret_.
Hs293, unlike Fritz-X, had a HE warhead.
Once the control frequencies were determined the effective careers of
Hs293 and Fritz-X were over. The need for the launching aeroplane to
keep flying straight and level towards the target after launch probably
didn't help, either.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that _Spartan_ was hit by a Hs293
- was she repaired after than and sunk by a Fritz-X or was the missile
that sank her the Hs293.
--
Andy Breen ~ PPARC Advanced Research Fellow
Solar Physics Group
University of Wales, Aberystwyth
My posting, my opinions..
Mike Moore
> showing that the Admiralty already knew that they were dealing with
> radio-guided weapons.
I read an obituary a while back for a bloke who was sent out to the Med
to try and jam the things; had to sail up and down, hoping to get
attacked by German bombers. He found a countermeasure by chance when a
sailor was using an electric shaver during an attack, and the bomb
dropped into the water, leading to all shavers being rounded up and
distributed as countermeasures.
I'm sure it was in the Times or Telegraph, but searching the Electronic
Telegraph reveals nothing. I'm fairly sure I wasn't hallucinating at
the time; anyone else remember it?
-Mike
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<mike....@gecm.com> writes
Possibly printed on April 1st one year:~)
Eugene Griessel
Very likely! However, early in the war, the British did use medical
diathermy sets in a desperate attempt to generate noise on the
frequencies the Lorentz bombing beams were operating on.
Around 30 mHz IIRC. They were modified for this purpose and were only
a stopgap until the purpose built Aspirin jammers became available.
Andrew C. Toppan
> I have not seen it, but I have been told that there is an aerial photo
> of her trying to nip into the pub for a last run ashore. She made the
> At that point in Portsmouth Harbour, there are no piers. The nearest
I'm looking at that photo now [_Warship International_, No. 3, 1998,
p.234], and there certainly *is* a pier, and she certainly *is* headed
right into that pier.
If it's not a pier, I'd like to know what you call the piling-supported
structure, projecting outwards from the shore, with several buildings on
it, that she's very near to squashing.
[the photo in WI is mis-captioned as Devonport....]
Paul J. Adam
`Mike` Crowe <mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> writes
>I have not seen it, but I have been told that there is an aerial photo
>of her trying to nip into the pub for a last run ashore.
The pub was the Still and West: the picture can be seen in the coffee
shop in the Allders department store in Commercial Road,
Portsmouth. (Blown up to poster size, too)
If she's not aground, she's got to be close - mud under her keel at
least.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
John Tomlin
Paul Cassidy <paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
[snip]
>Warspite was one of the most advanced ships in the world when she was
>launched. She was good enough to last and fight in the second world war,
>when most of the other battleships were scrapped after WW1.
>
>hit against another moving ship (Matapan).
<nitpick> I believe this was actually at the "Action off Calabria".
Matapan came a little later (with of course, Warspite participating
also).
</nitpick>
**************************************************************************
* John Tomlin (tomlin@almaden#ibm#com) Speak for my employer? Get real. *
* (Change # to . to get my actual e-mail address) *
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* to Admiral James Somerville on the occasion of his second "G". *
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**************************************************************************
TJ
>The only WWI veteran in good enough shape to be an easy preservation target
>was Renown.
>
While this may be the case, if there were a choice for length of
service, I would pick IRON DUKE. IIRC she was the only dreadnought
battleship to serve completely through both world wars even if she was
nothing more than a floating batter through the 2nd one.
TJ
Stephen Shepherd
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Damn fine photo as well, direct overhead shot taken from an a/c. Also see
the photo in the front windows of some of the Portsmouth News offices in
the area - I know the Fareham one had it for a long while in the mid '90s.
--
Stephen Shepherd
-- http://homepages.which.net/~stephen.shepherd --
-- Articles on Glacier and Grand Teton National --
-- Parks, RN pictures and Formula 1 information --
Andrew C. Toppan
> While this may be the case, if there were a choice for length of
> service, I would pick IRON DUKE. IIRC she was the only dreadnought
But if you're going to preserve a ship, it's nice to have a _ship_ to work
with, not a half-sunken scrapheap.
ANDREW BREEN
Andrew C. Toppan <acto...@gwi.net> wrote:
>TJ (tjm...@nwinfo.net) was seen to write:
>> While this may be the case, if there were a choice for length of
>> service, I would pick IRON DUKE. IIRC she was the only dreadnought
>
>But if you're going to preserve a ship, it's nice to have a _ship_ to work
>with, not a half-sunken scrapheap.
Quite. At the end of WW2 the Tin Duck was _not_ in good condition. Sitting
on the bottom in the shallows of Scapa, IIRC. She'd been ripe (nay, rotten)
for the scrapyard when the war broke out (note that there was never any
thought of trying to put her back into fighting trim or even to sea as
a decoy - CENTURION had a much more active war). WARSPITE was in a fairly
grim condition too - held together by concrete ballast and the dear knows
what else. RENOWN was the only one of the WW1-vintage ships which was fit
for further service (and was in very much better condition than any of the
big ships apart from the KG5s) - she was the only ship that might possibly
have been worth trying to preserve, but in 1945-48 there were other, higher
priorities for the linited money available. Remember that this was a
period when steel for industry was rationed and firms were being exhorted
to 'export or die'. In that climate a battleship was a big steel mine.
Matt Clonfero
<n...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>>I'm curious as to why you would pick Warspite -vs- Queen Elizibeth or
>>even Renown. Maybe I'm in danger of showing my ingnorance but was
>>Warspite's record that exemplary?
>
>
>Jutland
>Narvik
>Matapan
>Sicily
>D Day
>...
>
>Those are just ones that come to me off the top of my head! Basically at the
>end of WWII, Warspite had a longer list of battle honours over the course of
>two world wars than any ship afloat (or sunk for that matter.)
Warspite
`A ship's gun, gold, on a field green.'
Cadiz 1596
Orfordness 1666
Sole Bay 1672
Schooneveld 1673
Texel 1673
Barfleur 1692
Velez Malaga 1704
Marbella 1705
Lagos 1759
Quiberon Bay 1759
Jutland 1916
Atlantic 1939
Narvik 1940
Norway 1940
Calabria 1940
Mediterranean 1940-3
Malta Convoys 1941
Matapan 1941
Crete 1941
Sicily 1943
Salerno 1943
English Channel 1944
Normandy 1944
Walcheren 1944
Biscay 1944
Aetherem Vincere
Matt
--
Matt Clonfero: Mat...@aetherem.demon.co.uk | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me. | -- Anon, ETPS.
Michael `Mike` Crowe
Crowe <mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> writes
>><acto...@gwi.net> writes
>>>> aground in the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour on her way to be scrapped.
>
>`run ashore` but was not served a pint. Pub closed?
>>>
>>>No. She very nearly ran through some piers - but the tugs got her under
>>>control, and she never touched anything.
>
>that is `behind` the old coaling barges. The car ferry terminal, at that
>time in Broad Street, is tucked around the corner. I believe that she
>went aground where the old car chain ferry used to leave Portsmouth for
>Gosport, long since gone.
I AM WRONG, I went into Portsmouth Harbour this morning on the 0700
from Fishbourne and had a look to confirm that there are no piers at
that point in the Harbour. There IS. It is a small `stubby` pier it
looks as though it is a private one and has a pair of davits on it. I
have been in and out of that harbour God above knows how many times and
had never noticed it. Yes it is there just about where Vanguard would
have gone on shore leave
Mike
Stephen Shepherd
Michael `Mike` Crowe wrote:
> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>No. She very nearly ran through some piers - but the tugs got her under
> >>>control, and she never touched anything.
> >
> >At that point in Portsmouth Harbour, there are no piers. The nearest
> >pier is the one where the Isle of Wight Passenger ferry goes from and
> >that is `behind` the old coaling barges. The car ferry terminal, at that
> >time in Broad Street, is tucked around the corner. I believe that she
> >went aground where the old car chain ferry used to leave Portsmouth for
> >Gosport, long since gone.
>
> I AM WRONG, I went into Portsmouth Harbour this morning on the 0700
> from Fishbourne and had a look to confirm that there are no piers at
> that point in the Harbour. There IS. It is a small `stubby` pier it
> looks as though it is a private one and has a pair of davits on it. I
> have been in and out of that harbour God above knows how many times and
> had never noticed it. Yes it is there just about where Vanguard would
> have gone on shore leave
>
> Mike
>
>
I wonder if it was a lot longer before? :-)
Malcolm
Paul J. Adam writes
>In article <gnRHwJA8...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk>, Michael
>`Mike` Crowe <mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> writes
>>of her trying to nip into the pub for a last run ashore.
>
>shop in the Allders department store in Commercial Road,
>Portsmouth. (Blown up to poster size, too)
A poster size framed photo is in the upstairs section of the Still and
West - I wuz there on Saturday.
>
>If she's not aground, she's got to be close - mud under her keel at
>least.
>
--
Regards
Malcolm
www.tosd.demon.co.uk - HMS SOLEBAY and Battle class website.
I love to cook with wine: sometimes I even put it in the food.
Malcolm
Michael `Mike` Crowe writes
>I AM WRONG, I went into Portsmouth Harbour this morning on the 0700
>from Fishbourne and had a look to confirm that there are no piers at
>that point in the Harbour. There IS. It is a small `stubby` pier it
>looks as though it is a private one and has a pair of davits on it. I
>have been in and out of that harbour God above knows how many times and
>had never noticed it. Yes it is there just about where Vanguard would
>have gone on shore leave
There is a tiny pier like projection with an old light structure on top,
which is part of the local sea-scout HQ, IIRC. it only projects about
ten feet, though.
The pic in the Still and West is taken from above and astern, obviously
an aerial shot, and her bow appears to be touching but closer inspection
shows that she is a few feet off.
Clive Burt
Belfast ?
Regards
Clive
Andrew C. Toppan <acto...@gwi.net> wrote in message
news:G9cc3.204$MC6...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Paul Cassidy (paul.c...@wxs.nl) was seen to write:
> > They really should have preserved Warspite. If any ship deserved to
live, it
> > was her!
>
> I would not want to be the museum tasked with preserving that floating
> scrapyard!
Adam
> Belfast ?
Her material condition. She was in very, VERY bad shape and would have
been scrapped after the glide bomb hit she took at Salerno if more fire
suppport hadn't been needed along the Walcheren coast. For example
turret three was out of action. A good book on the subject it "HMS
Warspite." They basically just fixed her up enought to put her to sea
one last time.
Paul J. Adam
8.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>Why is it any different to the preservation of the American BB's or HMS
>Belfast ?
>
>Clive
Warspite was in _horrible_ shape by war's end. Belfast was preserved
in, IIRC, 1970 or so, in reasonable overall condition (she was in fine
fettle last time I was aboard) - Warspite was staggering from warzone
to warzone without much secondary armament, one 15" turret gone,
half her machinery spaces ruined, and by war's end she was a
constructive total loss.
If the money had been available, Warspite should have been saved
and kept in Portsmouth :) But she was a _lot_ of steel, available for
scrapping, in terrible condition, and it was use her or lose her.
Preservation wasn't an option at that point.
Tragic, but true. I wish we had a dreadnought battleship in Pompey
to finish the evolution from Mary Rose to Victory to Warrior to...
whatever we could get. Warspite and Vanguard would be good
choices, but we're missing that last step in the evolution of the line-
of-battleship.
Perhaps we could acquire an Iowa-class BB? ;)
Andrew C. Toppan
> Why is it any different to the preservation of the American BB's or HMS
> Belfast ?
Because WARSPITE was in very, very, VERY bad (read: barely afloat)
condition at the end of WWII. That's not the case with the others, which
were in good-to-very-good condition (TEXAS), or excellent condition (the
rest) when preserved.
John Mianowski
Pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk says...
>
>
> Perhaps we could acquire an Iowa-class BB? ;)
>
What makes you think we're not going to reactivate
them?!?
;-)
JM
--
SPAM Deflector: Remove the underscore from my address to
send me e-mail.
G. Smith
could have been placed in the reserve, we're talking about preserving
one of the most valuable cultural, technological and historic icons of
the past two centuries. Her scrapping was a loss to the whole of the
English speaking peoples. Those scars were not just battle damage or
signs of hard use, they were badges of honor, earned in protecting her
crews' lives, and the lives of the sailors and soldiers she was charged
with protecting. Warspite should have been made safe for visitors during
preservation, but in so far as practical, the damage should have
remained. I for one would have felt it an honor to see the concrete
holding her together at the end.
I realize that times were difficult after the war, but Britain did
manage to support an ill-advised foray into socialism, an expensive
monarchy, the vestiges of an empire, and the development three V-bombers
during this era. After the war generation bore burdens and made
sacrifices as great as any in British history, the ideal that a ship as
important as HMS Warspite could be reduced to scrap for a few cents on
the pound is almost repugnant. How will Britons of the twenty-first
century come to view this decision? Did the faceless bureaucrats who
made the decision ask the men who rode with Warspite into the teeth of
death before the German fleet at Jutland if they were willing to make
economic sacrifices to preserve her? Did they ask the soldiers who
stormed Normandy’s beaches and found solace under her guns if she was
worth saving?
Please pardon this little tirade; I realize that few, if any, of the
readers on this newsgroup were in any position to affect the
preservation decision one way or another. And of course, the United
States has been almost as short-sighted with its naval heritage, as the
scrapping of USS Enterprise in 1959 showed.
Keith Willshaw
Clive Burt wrote in message <7lgns7$ial$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Why is it any different to the preservation of the American BB's or HMS
>Belfast ?
>
>
>Clive
By the end of the war HMS Warspite was
1) 30 years old and had been used hard for ALL of that time
2) Was Badly damaged by Glide bombs off Italy in 1943
After this she was patched with Concrete with One Turret
out of action for use as a bombardment ship
3) Was Mined on 13 June 1944 causing further damage and
was again patched up
Frankly she was a gallant old ship but was worn out
and crippled and would not have made a good
specimen for preservation.
Keith
Ken Young
(dSmith) wrote:
> Didn't know this as well. Can you give more info on this? Was the
> FX-1400 a German Weapon?
Yes it was a radio controlled 1400kg SAP bomb with tail steering .
Bursting charge was 300kg. Design piercing limits were 11.5 to 16 cm.
The parent aircraft was usually a Do217. It was supplemented and later
replaced by the Hs293 air to surface missile.
The FX1400 that hit Warspite penetrated all decks and exploded in the
double bottom under number 4 boiler room. This resulted in loss of
power from there and number 3 boiler room and progressive flooding
eventually left her dead in the water. Warspite was never fully
repaired and spent the rest of the war with three working boiler rooms
and a hull patched with concrete. This was the second time Warspite
served with tempary repairs. The damage from Jutland was not given
permanent repair until Warspite was reconstructed in the thirties.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion
Peter Skelton
>> Why is it any different to the preservation of the American BB's or HMS
>> Belfast ?
>
>Her material condition. She was in very, VERY bad shape and would have
>been scrapped after the glide bomb hit she took at Salerno if more fire
>suppport hadn't been needed along the Walcheren coast. For example
>turret three was out of action. A good book on the subject it "HMS
>Warspite." They basically just fixed her up enought to put her to sea
>one last time.
Warspite was kept in service for sentimental reasons. The RN had two or
more BB's in better condition sitting at the pier for lack of crews from
before D Day on.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/389-1705
skel...@home.com
Andrew C. Toppan
> We're not talking about refurbishing HMS Warspite to the point that she
> could have been placed in the reserve, we're talking about preserving
> one of the most valuable cultural, technological and historic icons of
I certainly hope you're volunteering all your free time and money to help
in warship preservation efforts.
Glenn Dowdy
Paul J. Adam wrote in message ...
>Tragic, but true. I wish we had a dreadnought battleship in Pompey
>to finish the evolution from Mary Rose to Victory to Warrior to...
>whatever we could get. Warspite and Vanguard would be good
>choices, but we're missing that last step in the evolution of the line-
>of-battleship.
>
>
>Perhaps we could acquire an Iowa-class BB? ;)
>
SecDet! Stand by for boarding!
Glenn Dowdy
Julian Barker
G. Smith <g_smi...@hotmail.com> wrote
>We're not talking about refurbishing HMS Warspite to the point that she
>could have been placed in the reserve, we're talking about preserving
>one of the most valuable cultural, technological and historic icons of
>the past two centuries. Her scrapping was a loss to the whole of the
>English speaking peoples. Those scars were not just battle damage or
>signs of hard use, they were badges of honor, earned in protecting her
>crews' lives, and the lives of the sailors and soldiers she was charged
>with protecting. Warspite should have been made safe for visitors during
>preservation, but in so far as practical, the damage should have
>remained. I for one would have felt it an honor to see the concrete
>holding her together at the end.
I think you misunderstand the British psyche.
The average Brit is very proud of the nations naval heritage, but they
do not see this in terms of wood or steel. For most people the men who
fought and won those battles are more important than the vessels ever
will be. For example, everyone who visits Victory gets to see the plaque
that marks where Nelson allegedly was shot, and visits the point in the
ship where he died.
The country is full of pubs named after naval heroes, for example the
Admiral Duncan pub in Soho is in the news today. I live in Merton where
everything from the pubs, the roads and even the local hospital are
named after Nelson. I can think of one pub locally that is names
Victory.
A few places are named after ships, but it is extremely rare. Even very
famous ships like Revenge and Iron Duke have almost nothing named after
them.
The British people do not need ships, they know that a navy is not any
good without men of calibre to command and man them.
--
Julian Barker
There is a coherent plan in the universe,
though I don't know what it is a plan for.
- Fred Hoyle
Max Schmid
was? All it would take was some guy without alot of money who likes naval
history.
Paul J. Adam <Pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:E3WlrXApD$e3E...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
> In article <7lgns7$ial$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, Clive Burt <clive@burt1
> 8.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> >Belfast ?
> >
> >Clive
>
> Warspite was in _horrible_ shape by war's end. Belfast was preserved
> in, IIRC, 1970 or so, in reasonable overall condition (she was in fine
> fettle last time I was aboard) - Warspite was staggering from warzone
> to warzone without much secondary armament, one 15" turret gone,
> half her machinery spaces ruined, and by war's end she was a
> constructive total loss.
>
> If the money had been available, Warspite should have been saved
> and kept in Portsmouth :) But she was a _lot_ of steel, available for
> scrapping, in terrible condition, and it was use her or lose her.
> Preservation wasn't an option at that point.
>
> to finish the evolution from Mary Rose to Victory to Warrior to...
> whatever we could get. Warspite and Vanguard would be good
> choices, but we're missing that last step in the evolution of the line-
> of-battleship.
>
>
> Perhaps we could acquire an Iowa-class BB? ;)
>
G. Smith
are much more meaningful than monuments to technology. As a professor of
mechanical engineering I may be predisposed to forget that.
By the way, I meant absolutely no disrespect to the British people, and hope
none of our friends, cousins and allies on the other side of the pond
construed my comments as such.
Johan Groenewald
>
>Because WARSPITE was in very, very, VERY bad (read: barely afloat)
>condition at the end of WWII. That's not the case with the others, which
>were in good-to-very-good condition (TEXAS), or excellent condition (the
>rest) when preserved.
Would something built in 1913 (Warspite) have survived until today? If
anybody thinks that the answer is yes I wish that the US preserved
Pennsylvania or Nevada! "Rust never sleeps" --- Neil Young
Johan Groenewald
Andrew C. Toppan
> Are there any BB's that could be raised in the future like the Mary Rose
No. Essentially anything that is sunk was lost to enemy action in
wartime; as such, the ships would be considered war graves, not subject to
salvage. Further, battleships lost in action tend to be rather messed-up
(i.e. blown in two). And steel ships tend to rust away when submerged for
any length of time - witness TITANIC.
Paul Cassidy
Andrew C. Toppan <acto...@gwi.net> wrote in message
news:w_df3.284$F42...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Andrew C. Toppan
> Are all the sunken German ships gone from Scapa?
The majority of the battleships were salvaged decades ago. Only three
German BBs were not refloated, but those three have been partially
demolished and brought up in little pieces.
Daniel Koh
>
> Are all the sunken German ships gone from Scapa?
>
BBs:
König: upside down with keel at about 20m, seabed about 40m, wreck
rather opened up.
Kronprinz Wilhelm: upside down, keel at 10+m, seabed about 40m
Markgraf: upside down, at least 25m to shallowest point of wreck
CLs:
Köln: upright, starboard list, 20-25m shallowest point midships port,
25-30m for deck.
Dresden: upright, starboard list, 35m seabed, shallowest point 20m
Karslruhe: on starboard, 25m depth, 10+m to shallowest
Brummer: didn't dive her so no observations, but she's there and about
same depth as Dresden.
NB: All these figures and observations come from my dive log so treat
them with a lump of salt. I was freezing my bollox off at the time so
the numbers and observations are a mite sketchy, probably even
inaccurate. Lesson learned: dive Scapa with a bloody drysuit even in the
bloody summer...
FWIW, there are 2 RN wrecks in/around Scapa that are diveable:
HMS Roedean: converted minesweeper, sunk by mine, at 15m,
HMS Hampshire: just off Marwick? Head (i.e. not inside the Flow proper),
at tech-diving depth 60ish m. This is the same Hampshire that was
carrying Kitchener when she sank after a mine hit.
Dan
Mark J. Koebbe
"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
> Paul Cassidy (paul.c...@wxs.nl) was seen to write:
> > Are all the sunken German ships gone from Scapa?
>
> The majority of the battleships were salvaged decades ago. Only three
> German BBs were not refloated, but those three have been partially
> demolished and brought up in little pieces.
But isn't most of the Markgraf and KronPrinz Wilhelm pretty much
intact? I know of a diving website that books tours to the two
battleships and cruiser. How about the Royal Oak?
Second (probably worthy of a separate thread title) is a query
directed to you at which 'wrecks' of warships do you think may yet be
accessible but have not been discovered or investigated as of yet? I
mean wrecks within scuba range.
What depth is the Ashigara for instance? The Fuso and Yamashiro? I
know the Kumano and Nachi are in shallow water but have been largely
scavenged. How about the location and depth of 'Roma' or the
'Barham'? Maybe the English cruisers sunk near Malta or Tobruk? Is
the Blucher or Karlsruhe accessible?
Do you know of any comprehensive sources on such wrecks from WWI and
WWII?
MJK
Mark J. Koebbe
Daniel Koh wrote:
>
> Paul Cassidy wrote:
> >
[snip most]
>
> FWIW, there are 2 RN wrecks in/around Scapa that are diveable:
> HMS Roedean: converted minesweeper, sunk by mine, at 15m,
> HMS Hampshire: just off Marwick? Head (i.e. not inside the Flow proper),
> at tech-diving depth 60ish m. This is the same Hampshire that was
> carrying Kitchener when she sank after a mine hit.
I should have addressed my previous post to you. I might be
interested in finding comprehensive sources on military wreck diving.
Also, what wrecks would you like to dive (perhaps the Bikini Lagoon)?
What wrecks remain either undiscovered or are potentially within range
of scuba?
MJK
>
> Dan
Andrew C. Toppan
> How about the Royal Oak?
A war grave, and thus not relevant to the question of salvage.
> What depth is the Ashigara for instance? The Fuso and Yamashiro? I
Personally, I think FUSO and YAMASHIRO are worthy of a detailed
examination, to finally settle the questions surrounding their loss.
Mark J. Koebbe
It would have been even better if they had preserved the Oregon. Now
we preserve all the Iowas, two (IIRC) Indianas, and one North
Crolina. The representation of preserved ships unfortunately favors
the more recent BBs. It would have been nice to have saved some of
the older craft....especially those that survived into the 1950's.
I'd like to have seen some of the 'cruisers' saved as well. I've had
the opportunity to view the Des Moines down at the old Philadelphia
Naval Yard.....just rusting away.
MJK
>
> Johan Groenewald
Andrew C. Toppan
> Would something built in 1913 (Warspite) have survived until today? If
Properly preserved, there's no reason a 1913-ish warship couldn't last
for decades - the perfect example is TEXAS, commissioned 1914, a year
before WARSPITE.
> anybody thinks that the answer is yes I wish that the US preserved
> Pennsylvania or Nevada!
Both were so extensively modified during WWII that they hardly resembled
their pre-war configurations. TEXAS was not so heavily modified, so was a
better representation of the pre-war battleships. Besides, PENNSYLVANIA
was in really bad shape (just like WARSPITE); she leaked badly and her
stern was disintegrating.
Andrew C. Toppan
Two SOUTH DAKOTAs. INDIANA was not a class-ship.
> I'd like to have seen some of the 'cruisers' saved as well.
Like SALEM (sister to DES MOINES), LITTLE ROCK, OLYMPIA? We're not too
badly off in that department.
Keith Willshaw
Johan Groenewald wrote in message <377cf8d5...@news.iafrica.com>...
>acto...@gwi.net (Andrew C. Toppan) wrote:
>
>Would something built in 1913 (Warspite) have survived until today? If
>anybody thinks that the answer is yes I wish that the US preserved
>Pennsylvania or Nevada! "Rust never sleeps" --- Neil Young
>
Hell yes
The Texas which was also involved at Normandy was built
in 1912 and preserved at La Porte texas
Not forgetting
HMS Warrior Built in 1860 is preserved at Portsmouth
The Olympia of 1898 is open at Philadelphia
The Aurora of 1900 is in Leningrad
The Mikasa - Togo's Flagship in 1905 is at Yokosuka
and the Averoff of 1910 is preserved at Piraeus
And thats neglecting the Wooden Warships like Victory
Constitution and the Trincomalee
Keith
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<mko...@pond.com> writes
>
>
> Des Moines down at the old Philadelphia
>Naval Yard.....just rusting away.
>
her in Gibralter Jan - March 1959 when I was on H.M.S.Gambia. Rusting
away?? She was a shiny example then!!
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N.Sh...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk
The `system` to find long lost Royal Navy shipmates
Now arranging Reunions for the Associations
Andrew C. Toppan
> Wow, first time I have seen the Des Moines mentioned since I went aboard
> her in Gibralter Jan - March 1959 when I was on H.M.S.Gambia. Rusting
> away?? She was a shiny example then!!
Actually, in 1959 she was just two years from decommissioning - and her
even-newer sister SALEM was already decommissioned.
Julian Barker
G. Smith <g_smi...@hotmail.com> wrote
>Thank you for your insight, Julian. You're right, of course. Monuments to men
>are much more meaningful than monuments to technology. As a professor of
>mechanical engineering I may be predisposed to forget that.
>
>By the way, I meant absolutely no disrespect to the British people, and hope
>none of our friends, cousins and allies on the other side of the pond
>construed my comments as such.
That's OK, I didn't see any disrespect. In fact I thought your post
appeared to be inspired by respect for British naval heritage.
I was just trying to explain that most Brits probably don't see much of
a need to preserve ships. If you asked people in the street to name a RN
warship, 90% would say Victory, 9% would say Britannia and 1% would say
don't know. As a result they would probably not be interested in
preserving any other ships.
Julian Barker
Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote
>
>
>Hell yes
>
>The Texas which was also involved at Normandy was built
>in 1912 and preserved at La Porte texas
>
>Not forgetting
>
>HMS Warrior Built in 1860 is preserved at Portsmouth
>The Olympia of 1898 is open at Philadelphia
>The Aurora of 1900 is in Leningrad
>The Mikasa - Togo's Flagship in 1905 is at Yokosuka
>and the Averoff of 1910 is preserved at Piraeus
>
Huascar from the 1860's is in Chile.
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
>Actually, in 1959 she was just two years from decommissioning - and her
>even-newer sister SALEM was already decommissioned.
I had the luck to see two of the class together, in the Med, in 1958.
One was relieving the other as 6th Fleet flagship, and they needed to
transfer spare ammunition for the saluting battery. For the purpose,
they used an AE (Shasta, on which I was the junior Ensign at that
time). I forget what rig was used, probably a wire high line, which
they couldn't use between themselves. Anyway, we stayed with them for
a couple of days, during which time, we were formation guide (!).
Regards, PHG
(To reply by mail, send to my initials at the same site)
Moramarth
<jpg...@iafrica.com> writes
>>condition at the end of WWII. That's not the case with the others, which
>>were in good-to-very-good condition (TEXAS), or excellent condition (the
>>rest) when preserved.
>
>anybody thinks that the answer is yes I wish that the US preserved
>Pennsylvania or Nevada! "Rust never sleeps" --- Neil Young
>
>
>
There's a "C" Class light cruiser (Caroline?) of a similar date still
afloat in Belfast.
Cheers,
--
Moramarth
Moramarth
<acto...@gwi.net> writes
>Max Schmid (ach...@earthlink.net) was seen to write:
>> Are there any BB's that could be raised in the future like the Mary Rose
>
>No. Essentially anything that is sunk was lost to enemy action in
>wartime; as such, the ships would be considered war graves, not subject to
>salvage. Further, battleships lost in action tend to be rather messed-up
>(i.e. blown in two). And steel ships tend to rust away when submerged for
>any length of time - witness TITANIC.
>
>
Portland?
Cheers,
--
Moramarth
Andrew C. Toppan
> What about the "Hood" -not the BC, the pre-dreadnought. Scuttled off
After 85 years submerged, I suspect she's more than a little rusted-out.
Mark J. Koebbe
"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
> Johan Groenewald (jpg...@iafrica.com) was seen to write:
> > Would something built in 1913 (Warspite) have survived until today? If
>
> Properly preserved, there's no reason a 1913-ish warship couldn't last
> for decades - the perfect example is TEXAS, commissioned 1914, a year
> before WARSPITE.
>
> > anybody thinks that the answer is yes I wish that the US preserved
> > Pennsylvania or Nevada!
>
> Both were so extensively modified during WWII that they hardly resembled
> their pre-war configurations. TEXAS was not so heavily modified, so was a
> better representation of the pre-war battleships. Besides, PENNSYLVANIA
> was in really bad shape (just like WARSPITE); she leaked badly and her
> stern was disintegrating.
Wasn't this excaberated by taking an aerial torpedo in the stern? Or
was this a chronic structural problem?
MJK
Mark J. Koebbe
"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
> Mark J. Koebbe (mko...@pond.com) was seen to write:
>
> > How about the Royal Oak?
>
> A war grave, and thus not relevant to the question of salvage.
>
> > What depth is the Ashigara for instance? The Fuso and Yamashiro? I
>
> Personally, I think FUSO and YAMASHIRO are worthy of a detailed
> examination, to finally settle the questions surrounding their loss.
I take it you've read the article at John Parshall's site (Nihon
Kaigun). I found it quite interesting and very well analyzed.
Mark J. Koebbe
"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
> Mark J. Koebbe (mko...@pond.com) was seen to write:
> > we preserve all the Iowas, two (IIRC) Indianas, and one North
>
> Two SOUTH DAKOTAs. INDIANA was not a class-ship.
>
> > I'd like to have seen some of the 'cruisers' saved as well.
>
> Like SALEM (sister to DES MOINES), LITTLE ROCK, OLYMPIA? We're not too
> badly off in that department.
I agree that there are some saved. I was thinking more about earlier
classes of cruisers (outside of the Olympis), like the New Orleans and
earlier classes (Pensacola, Omaha, Brooklyn, Cleveland, etc).
Mark J. Koebbe
Michael `Mike` Crowe wrote:
>
> In article <377E57BE...@pond.com>, Mark J. Koebbe
> <mko...@pond.com> writes
> >
> >
> > Des Moines down at the old Philadelphia
> >Naval Yard.....just rusting away.
> >
> Wow, first time I have seen the Des Moines mentioned since I went aboard
> her in Gibralter Jan - March 1959 when I was on H.M.S.Gambia. Rusting
> away?? She was a shiny example then!!
Well, she isn't all that rusty....but she isn't from what I can tell
being maintained.
MJK
Andrew C. Toppan
Yeah - the damage was quite extensive, and was not repaired. IIRC, she
finished the war with one of her four prop shafts functional....
Andrew C. Toppan
> being maintained.
DES MOINES was stricken in 1991, and has seen no maintenance since then.
Even before that, maintenance was in the minimal-to-nonexistent category,
since it was clear that the ship would never return to service. She's
been moderately stripped - to support NEWPORT NEWS, to support the
battleship reactivation, by NHC as part of the post-strike process, and by
the yard in preparation for disposal.
Mark J. Koebbe
"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
> Mark J. Koebbe (mko...@pond.com) was seen to write:
> > Well, she isn't all that rusty....but she isn't from what I can tell
> > being maintained.
>
> DES MOINES was stricken in 1991, and has seen no maintenance since then.
> Even before that, maintenance was in the minimal-to-nonexistent category,
> since it was clear that the ship would never return to service. She's
> been moderately stripped - to support NEWPORT NEWS, to support the
> battleship reactivation, by NHC as part of the post-strike process, and by
> the yard in preparation for disposal.
How stripped? She actually looks pretty 'good' with those nice old 8"
turrets.
Do you know of any attempts to preserve her? Also, there are a large
number of DDs and DEs in the yard. I didn't take a close look at
them, but are there any of the older classes of destroyers which might
be worth restoring?
MJK
Andrew C. Toppan
Much of the stuff that wasn't bolted down is gone - and a lot of what
_was_ bolted down, too. The crews at Philly burned all the tech manuals
and other documentation that were left aboard, after NHC picked her over
for preservable items. The stripping runs from sound-powered phone plugs
(removed years ago because the glowed in the dark and thus were deemed a
radiation hazard), to all the 5" fire control gear, removed to support the
IOWAs.
> Do you know of any attempts to preserve her?
Plenty - they've been at it for years, but have not yet put together a
proposal that the Navy has found acceptable.
Personally, I don't see the point - she's not really a terribly
significant ship, in historical terms, and her identical sister is
already preserved. There are plenty of more significant ships out there
that should be preserved.
> Also, there are a large
> number of DDs and DEs in the yard. I didn't take a close look at
> them, but are there any of the older classes of destroyers which might
> be worth restoring?
No DEs - USN hasn't had any of those since 1975.
Most of the Philly fleet is DDs, DDGs, FFs, and CGs...quite a few of 'em
have been sold for scrap and will soon be hauled off. Others have been
sold for scrap but returned when the scrapper went belly-up. Most are a
gutted mess.
A couple of 'em are earmarked for preservation - CHARLES F. ADAMS (DDG 2),
CONNOLY (a SPUE-can). Some CGs and FFs from the west-coast junk fleets
are also listed for preservation.
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<acto...@gwi.net> writes
>
>Personally, I don't see the point - she's not really a terribly
>significant ship, in historical terms,
Your comments above were about your Des Moines, but I feel the same can
be said, or 'could have been said' about our H.M.S.Vanguard, O.K. she
was our last Battleship, and she was laid down during WW11, but apart
from having second hand guns, she had no service during WW11 so could
not be preserved as an ex fighting warship with a battle history. It has
taken Sid Anning and a lot of people a very big fight to save
H.M.S.Cavalier, our last WW11 Greyhound. I know Sid and I know how
bloody hard he fought. Local council who had no interest in her history
just wanted her out of the way and were prepared to sell her to a Theme
Park in Malaysia, or cut her up for Corned Beef Tins. I helped in the
fight to save her and I know the attitude to those `outside` the Naval
Scene. There is talk of another 2 of our ex warships coming back. At
least they are afloat and one was in commission till a very short while
ago. We wait and see
Mike
David Mc
elevated position, on a ship that was probably rolling/pitching at the some
time as 1,000s of other people around him were making a hell of a
racket...and probably putting him off his shot.
....pretty good shooting I'd say!
Adam wrote in message <3780F0...@prodigy.net>...
>> to the theory about the 2nd French sharpshooter on "Le Grassie Knowle"???
>
>The mind stutters at trying to comprehend the definition of
>"sharpshooter" in those days when one considers the normal accuracy of
>weapons of the period.
David Mc
>that marks where Nelson allegedly was shot, and visits the point in the
>ship where he died.
Now wait a minute! What do you mean "allegedly shot" ....are you referring
to the theory about the 2nd French sharpshooter on "Le Grassie Knowle"???
Sounds as if this thread should be continued in one of the alt.conspiracy
newsgroups...
...sorry I couldn't resist!
David Mc
Peter Skelton
Conspiracy hell? It's proven:
Le coupe de grass?
Faut couper le gras?
Faut tendre le gazon?
Avoir besoin du gaz?
Fill 'er up?
It's no wonder the French are so paranoid.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/389-1705
skel...@home.com
Adam
The mind stutters at trying to comprehend the definition of
Peter Skelton
>"David Mc" <w...@www.com> wrote:
>
>>>will be. For example, everyone who visits Victory gets to see the plaque
>>>that marks where Nelson allegedly was shot, and visits the point in the
>>>ship where he died.
>>
>>
>>Now wait a minute! What do you mean "allegedly shot" ....are you referring
>>to the theory about the 2nd French sharpshooter on "Le Grassie Knowle"???
>>Sounds as if this thread should be continued in one of the alt.conspiracy
>>newsgroups...
>
>Conspiracy hell? It's proven:
>
>Le coupe de grass?
<bunk gone>
Please excuse my answering my own post but my earlier analysis was
incorrect. It has been pointed out to me, mercifully off-line that
"Grassie" is almost certainly a typo for "Graissie" which, as we all know
is franglais for "Graissant" ie. greasy or slippery.
The pair "ow" has the same pronumciation as "oe." Clearly, the author
intended a picturesque spelling of "Noel" or Christmas. He may be a member
of Crétiens du Droit, a Marseilles sect which in the early 19c spread
through the south of France. Among other things, this sect believed that
the Traffalgar defeat was God's retribution for the Empire's rejection of
Christian morality.
Thomas Schoene
<7lqosb$djt$1...@supernews.com>...
> I think you might be surprised! Nelson was hit by a marine shooting
from an
> elevated position, on a ship that was probably rolling/pitching at
the some
> time as 1,000s of other people around him were making a hell of a
> racket...and probably putting him off his shot.
>
> ....pretty good shooting I'd say!
Or very good luck by a harried and tossed shooter who was just trying
to get a round somewhere near that clump of blue-coated gentlemen on
the opposing quarterdeck. Marking down an individual target in such
a situation would probably be a rarity.
--
--------------------------------------------------
TomSc...@worldnet.att.net
*Insert pithy quote here*
Michael `Mike` Crowe
>
>....pretty good shooting I'd say!
>
>
Whose side are you on?
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N. Shipmates
Robert Aynsworth
> No. Essentially anything that is sunk was lost to enemy action in
> wartime; as such, the ships would be considered war graves, not subject to
> salvage. Further, battleships lost in action tend to be rather messed-up
> (i.e. blown in two). And steel ships tend to rust away when submerged for
> any length of time - witness TITANIC.
Interesting cases would be Repulse and Prince of Wales. The Japanese
considered raising Repulse sometime soon after she was sunk. I believe that
they
still pressed the UK government after the war as to whether one or both the
ships
could be salvaged. This issue continued until the 70s when a question was
raised in
the House. IIRC the ships are not in two parts and are in relatively shallow
water.
Not sure about your last point. Do you mean rust a loose sense of the word?
There are
lots of vessels that have been on the bottom for a long time that have not
rusted away.
Although they may not be suitable for salvage as museum pieces.
RoB
Julian Barker
David Mc <w...@www.com> wrote
>>will be. For example, everyone who visits Victory gets to see the plaque
>>that marks where Nelson allegedly was shot, and visits the point in the
>>ship where he died.
>
>
>Now wait a minute! What do you mean "allegedly shot" ....are you referring
>to the theory about the 2nd French sharpshooter on "Le Grassie Knowle"???
>Sounds as if this thread should be continued in one of the alt.conspiracy
>newsgroups...
>
>
>...sorry I couldn't resist!
>
>David Mc
The start of a very amusing thread. Peter had me LOL a couple of times!
For the benefit of those who really want to know why I used "allegedly",
the word is that the plaque on the deck has been moved to stop people
tripping over it! :)
John Redman
Andrew C. Toppan wrote in message <0Csf3.974$F42....@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
>Johan Groenewald (jpg...@iafrica.com) was seen to write:
>> Would something built in 1913 (Warspite) have survived until today?
I believe the German WW1 battlecruiser Moltke, sold to Turkey and renamed
"Yavuz", survived until 1971 - when she was scrapped by mistake, someone
once told me.
John Redman
Prince of Wales and Repulse sank in about 150 feet of water, IIRC, and their
upper works are visible from the air. But again, they're war graves.
Jeff Riddolls
As for one that's not a war grave, what about Ostfriesland? I've
never seen a detailed description of the damage that caused her to
sink, though - did she break up, and would there have been much left
of the superstructure after multiple 2,000-lb bomb hits? Has the
wreckage ever been examined?
Moramarth
<Robert_A...@RaytheonSPAMMENOT.com> writes
>"Andrew C. Toppan" wrote:
>
>> No. Essentially anything that is sunk was lost to enemy action in
>> wartime; as such, the ships would be considered war graves, not subject to
>> salvage.
> IIRC the ships are not in two parts and are in relatively shallow
>water.
>
someone had nicked the props off them?
Cheers,
--
Moramarth
Paul J. Adam
<jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> writes
>For the benefit of those who really want to know why I used "allegedly",
>the word is that the plaque on the deck has been moved to stop people
>tripping over it! :)
TINS - it used to be raised, a brass plaque on a wooden base fixed to
the deck. Now, it's set flush.
"Here Nelson Fell? Not surprised, I tripped over myself!"
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Andrew C. Toppan
> I believe the German WW1 battlecruiser Moltke, sold to Turkey and renamed
> "Yavuz", survived until 1971 - when she was scrapped by mistake, someone
> once told me.
She was sold to a shipbreaker - that's hardly an accidental act, and the
outcome would hardly be surprising.