treating the inside of a steel frame?
Derk Drukker
I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin layer of
liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel frame to avoid rust.
If so, does anyone know what substance would be best to use for this
purpose?
Greets, Derk
Maxfield D
JP Weigle Frame Saver. for sale several places such as the link below:
http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:_gdOjNyGf0EC:www.branfordbike.com/bik
ecare/bcare1.html+%22frame+saver%22+bicycle&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
A Muzi
news:pan.2003.03.14.20...@removethis.planet.nl...
Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial
product just for this purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a
carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled through the tubes. We have it
as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise
from rust inside tubes. My own 1953 steel frame looks pretty good inside.
But it doesn't hurt anything and Peter Wiegle could use the money.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
R Cohen
at any auto parts store or hardware store and is used to prevent
corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines that are
being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a
couple months. Unscrew the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the
inside of frame tubes, if you are so inclined. It is probably less
costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
Rob
Jim Adney
I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more
common.)
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
Tim McNamara
R Cohen <rs...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available
> at any auto parts store or hardware store and is used to prevent
> corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines that are
> being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a
> couple months. Unscrew the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
>
> It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the
> inside of frame tubes, if you are so inclined. It is probably less
> costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
Only if it's highly atomized and comes out as a vapor rather than as a
barely vaporized liquid stream- as in the case of Frame Saver or
Boeshield T-9. Both of these rely on being thin liquids that flow
easily, with the intention of swirling them around to coat the
surface.
The problem with rustproofing the insides of a bicycle frame can be
shown with a frying pan. Put a tablespoon of oil in a frying pan and
try to coat the entire bottom of the pan evenly. It takes a lot of
swiching and swirling to coat the pan- and you can *see* where the oil
needs to go. Inside a frame it takes just as much swishing and
swirling, but the shapes of the surfaces are enormously complex
compared to the plane of a frying pan- and you can't see where the
substance needs to go.
Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all
likelihood a complete waste of time. Dipping the frame in a
rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.
Richard Ney
>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin
>> layer of liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel frame
>> to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would be best
>> to use for this purpose?
>
> I use LPS-3. (NOT LPS-1, made by the same people, and lots more
> common.)
Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost
greased. I did this a few years back, after Jobst shot-down the
efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water intrusion.
Dave Thompson
> Is Frame Saver any different than Fogging Oil? Fogging Oil is available
> at any auto parts store or hardware store and is used to prevent
> corrosion in the cyclinders of internal combustion engines that are
> being stored. I use it on my motorcycle if I'm not riding it for a
> couple months. Unscrew the sparkplug, give it a shot of fogging oil....
>
> It occurs to me that fogging oil would be perfect for treating the
> inside of frame tubes, if you are so inclined. It is probably less
> costly and more widely available than Frame Saver.
>
> Rob
>
the solvents are evaporated, leaves a thick viscous coating. It's
almost like a grease, but much more dense. It is very thin when it's
sprayed out of the can. That allows it to get everywhere, and in small
areas and hidden corners.
Phil, Squid-in-Training
What about chain/seatstays and top tube? How do you treat those?
BTW, it'll attract dust and grit, too.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training
Bruce Gilbert
with very high success in treating SCUBA tanks years ago. They are basically
phosphoric acid and something else that forms iron phosphate which acts as a
rustproofing and primer. Or. at least that is how I understand it. I think
Naval Jelly has similar ingredients.
Bruce
"Dave Thompson" <davets...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:dd5a1455.03031...@posting.google.com...
Bruce Gilbert
http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm
The stuff is a liquid, thin as water. It could easily be injected into the
weep holes in a chainstay with a hypodermic or put onto a swab to coat the
inside of larger frame tubes.
Take a look, see if this stuff may make sense to you guys...
Bruce
"Richard Ney" <r...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:b4vqs4$21svib$1...@ID-185212.news.dfncis.de...
Jim Adney
wrote:
>Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a commercial
>product just for this purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a
>carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled through the tubes. We have it
>as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
>
>I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise
>from rust inside tubes.
Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the
maker....) It had pinholes thru the top tube, right behind the head
lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the tube,
more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.
I've never seen another case.
Jim Adney
wrote:
>Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost
>greased. I did this a few years back, after Jobst shot-down the
>efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water intrusion.
I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try
to seal out moisture you really have to make a perfect seal or you
will end up sealing water in.
Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and
water vapor comes with it. If the temp drops you will get dew
condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't take
a pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible
dusting of dew is MORE than enough to do damage.
A Muzi
> wrote:
> >Not that it's a big problem but many riders use oil. There's a
commercial
> >product just for this purpose (Wiegle's Frame Saver) . It is oil with a
> >carrier that evaporates after being aerosoled through the tubes. We have
it
> >as do most LBS that carry steel framesets.
> >
> >I don't use it myself as I haven't seen a case of structural compromise
> >from rust inside tubes.
"Jim Adney" <jad...@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:vhv77vkmkdfgncgnn...@4ax.com...
> Remember Greg Meeker's Pink custom frame (I can't remember the
> maker....) It had pinholes thru the top tube, right behind the head
> lug. Pretty strange, they weren't even on the bottom side of the tube,
> more to the upper left, about 10 O'clock.
>
> I've never seen another case.
I think we decided that was from months of training on rollers with sweat on
the _outside_. I found a metric top tube, replaced it and had the Urago
painted (pink again!) for his birthday a few years ago.
And there was Leila Shakkour's Mercier whose seatstays collapsed one day.
They had been filled with acid from a hack chrome plating job. I'd consider
that another anomaly and unrelated to the subject at hand. Makes a good
story but we don't want to set a rule by anecdote!
There just are not big numbers of bikes failing from internal rust, even
bikes ridden daily in salt water without benefit of LPS-3 or Wiegle's oil.
I'm not opposed to sloshing oil inside frames, I just don't thing anyone
should panic if they haven't done it.
A Muzi
> wrote:
>
> >Or you could simply seal the frame and keep the slot in the seatpost
> >greased. I did this a few years back, after Jobst shot-down the
> >efficacy of spraying the tubes, and haven't had any water intrusion.
"Jim Adney" <jad...@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:6ov77v0jq3uf5qon9...@4ax.com...
> I think you really have to be careful with this approach. If you try
> to seal out moisture you really have to make a perfect seal or you
> will end up sealing water in.
>
> Changes in barometric pressure carry air in and out every day, and
> water vapor comes with it. If the temp drops you will get dew
> condensing inside and that will be hard to get rid of. It doesn't take
> a pourable amount of water to cause corrosion. An almost invisible
> dusting of dew is MORE than enough to do damage.
I heartily agree. Attempting to "seal" a bike frame will keep water in more
likley than out. Drainholes are good!
Bill Putnam
...
> Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all
> likelihood a complete waste of time. Dipping the frame in a
> rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
> realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.
This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame
was dipped in paint. Plus, the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh
Sports are probably better suited to the riding people most people do
than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road
bike market, or suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden
off pavement.
Bill Putnam, who is not worried about his B line Raleigh rusting out
from the inside.
Sheldon Brown
>>Rustproofing a bicycle frame using a spray-in method is in all
>>likelihood a complete waste of time. Dipping the frame in a
>>rust-proofing bath before painting it would probably be the only
>>realistic way of properly coating the insides of the tubes.
If you're just talking about spraying, you're probably right. Weigel's
Frame Saver, if you follow the directions, is a different matter. The
procedure is fairly complicated and messy, involving plugging tubes
temporarily with rags and tipping the frame back and forth various ways
to distribute the goo.
I believe it is effective when done properly, but even in snowy/salty
New England I very, very rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage
to the frame.
Bill Putnam wrote:
> This was done on old black Nottingham Raleighs, where the entire frame
> was dipped in paint. Plus, the frame dimensions on an old Raleigh
> Sports are probably better suited to the riding people most people do
> than the modern steep angle short stays that have dominated the road
> bike market, or suspension forked mountain bikes that are never ridden
> off pavement.
72/72, it doesn't get any better than that!
Sheldon "Nottingham Knew" Brown
+----------------------------------------------+
| Certainly the game is rigged. |
| Don't let that stop you; |
| if you don't bet, you can't win. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
Neacalban1
>New England I very, very rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage
>to the frame.
well then you haven't seen my '80 Colnago Super- which has been on indoor
trainers ever since it got a huge dent in the top tube from falling off a
porch, 20 years ago. :-) I broke a crank on it, and wouldnt dare ride it
outdoors.the fork crown(which was chromed) is a solid rust color.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a
hypothetical consideration brought on by frame failures that occurred
from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the tube
that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.
If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick
grease is good enough) there won't be enough moisture in the frame to
cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode steel,
internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all
weather or more. Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear
mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the 1950's and
never had a rust problem. But what if...???
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA
Alexey Merz
But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England
and not the Bay Area or the Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they
use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the surface of
your car the day after you've washed it?
In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of
messengering in Portland, Oregon, I didn't worry and as you say I did
not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New Hampshire -
that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in my frames
might or might not help, but I am willing to spend a couple of bucks
to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom road frame to ride
on alternate days as an untreated control.
This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime
setting knows about salt water and corrosion of steel. What I *don't*
know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that the
Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of the
frame - but it's only a couple of bucks and I'll probably never know
whether it helped or not.
-Alex Merz
Paul Southworth
Alexey Merz <ale...@webcom.com> wrote:
>
>But, Jobst, are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England
>and not the Bay Area or the Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they
>use so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the surface of
>your car the day after you've washed it?
I have ridden and worked bike shops in Michigan where the roads are
heavily salted. In winter along the side of the road you see
handlebars sticking out of salty snow banks where the plows toss
salt slush. Those bikes are fully immersed, covered in salt water
inside and out for several months.
I have never once seen a bike there with the frame rusted through
except a few bikes on indoor trainers. It probably has happened
in recorded history but I tuned up those bikes dug out of the snow,
plenty hundreds of them, didn't find frame corrosion to be a problem.
Chains, freewheels, bottom brackets, and derailleurs do tend to get
ruined real quick, and wheels built without stainless spokes are a
total loss. Stems and seatposts stuck in the frame, definitely,
but no tubing failures that I can recall, I think I would remember.
--Paul
g.daniels
the air can escape upwards as the thinned paint or linseed flows
downwards or drilling drainholes if none exist and faith as who can
see in a chainstay unless youra surgeon under malpractice. try
twirling the frame in the appropriate directions over head with two
coats to be sure. everyone experiences the, oh shit I missed a spot,
god knows what happens in a chainstay. Mr. Brandt lives in the west
coast possibly dew point free(and expects me to rag about this)while
we hear in the east grow grass and are generally ambivalent about raw
dirt and frequently are victimized by rot, milldew, green spot(heheh),
and rust rust rust. have you seen the price of a GTV!!!or a '58 ford
wagon? my god. listen if e.merkx rode it take it over to the shop and
have them strip and paint it.
David E. Belcher
Fort treat theirs in-house after painting, using linseed oil.
David E. Belcher
Dept. of Chemistry,
University of York
A Muzi
> >even in snowy/salty
> >New England I very, very rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage
> >to the frame.
"Neacalban1" <neaca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030317230834...@mb-cl.aol.com...
> well then you haven't seen my '80 Colnago Super- which has been on
indoor
> trainers ever since it got a huge dent in the top tube from falling off a
> porch, 20 years ago. :-) I broke a crank on it, and wouldnt dare ride it
> outdoors.the fork crown(which was chromed) is a solid rust color.
I see a lot of ugly bikes as well.
But Sheldon wasn't disparaging the _aesthetics_ of rusty bikes, he referred
to "serious rust damage" - meaning compromised structural integrity - which
is virtually unknown.
David L. Johnson
> the stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drainholes so
> the air can escape upwards as the thinned paint or linseed flows
> downwards or drilling drainholes if none exist
Note: They are not drainholes. The holes in the stays are there to
allow hot air to escape during welding/brazing. If there were no holes,
pressure would build up in the tube and air would bubble through the
joint, weakening it.
Not enough air/water gets through them to matter. The only source of
enough water to do more than annoy is from riding in the rain, having
water run down the seatpost then into the frame. Grease the seatpost
well before you install it, and that will be that.
> Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly dew
> point free
Jobst lives in the Bay Area, which has plenty of moisture. The West
Coast is not all desert.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or
_`\(,_ | that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not
(_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public. --Theodore Roosevelt
Jay Beattie
"Paul Southworth" <cnhyf-10...@usenet.etext.org> wrote in message
news:6VHda.33629$A%3.42...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my track
bike.
I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can create
a stress riser and contribute to a crack failure as opposed to rusting
through. I broke a steel frame that was seriously rusted on the inside
and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it just cracked --
or both in some measure. The frame had been totalled after an accident
and rebuilt as a fixer-commuter. I never cleaned it, and it accumulated
a good amount of water in the down tube which was fairly well sealed off
by a Phil BB. It cracked all the way around the down tube about a
half-inch above the BB, and rusty water poured out. -- Jay Beattie.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin
>>> layer of liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel
>>> frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
>>> be best to use for this purpose?
>> Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a
>> hypothetical consideration brought on by frame failures that
>> occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube
>> (the tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a
>> rust wick.
>> If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick
>> grease is good enough) there won't be enough moisture in the frame
>> to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode
>> steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting
>> in all weather or more. Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by
>> fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the
>> 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???
> But are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and
> not the Bay Area or the Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use
> so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the surface of your
> car the day after you've washed it?
How does the sale on the road get in the frame? If the seat post
clamp zone is sealed, there should be no road water entering the
frame. Besides, most of these frame tube treatments are either
damaging if they are curing paint-like coatings that cover a patina of
rust without good adherence. They build a capillary that can fill but
not dry out if moisture were to enter that gap, which it will since it
is not covering all parts. Oils do no good because water penetrates
oils, makes an emulsion and accelerates rust. Try oiling an ax and
leaving it out doors in the rain.
> In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of
> messengering in Portland, Oregon, I didn't worry and as you say I
> did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New
> Hampshire - that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in
> my frames might or might not help, but I am willing to spend a
> couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom
> road frame to ride on alternate days as an untreated control.
You might as well throw salt over your shoulder as put some spray in
goop in the frame tubes. Making sure there isn't a leak somewhere on
the frame is the important effort.
> This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime
> setting knows about salt water and corrosion of steel. What I
> *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that
> the Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of
> the frame - but it's only a couple of bucks and I'll probably never
> know whether it helped or not.
Sure, my car windshield is all crusty after I drive down the coast to
Santa Cruz. That's one reason why I prefer to ride bike on that
route. That reminds me, you should also knock on wood before throwing
salt over your shoulder.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> The stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drain holes
> so the air can escape upwards as the thinned paint or linseed flows
> downwards or drilling drain holes if none exist and faith as who can
> see in a chainstay unless your a surgeon under malpractice.
Bad suggestion. First, these are not drain holes but vent holes for
brazing. Without a vent, in an otherwise closed tube, brass will not
flow into the lug and a fillet braze will have bubble holes. After
brazing, a good frame builder will braze the vents shut. You can do
the same with RTV. Those holes are not sacred. They belong to the
user who should close them if there is any doubt about moisture
intrusion.
> Try twirling the frame in the appropriate directions over head with
> two coats to be sure. Everyone experiences the, oh shit I missed a
> spot, god knows what happens in a chainstay.
Oh no! Tied and soldered spokes being dead, we HAVE found a new
incantation, including swinging a dead cat (or bicycle frame) around
the head. What mystic prayers are appropriate for this rite?
> Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly dew point free(and
> expects me to rag about this)while we hear in the east grow grass
> and are generally ambivalent about raw dirt and frequently are
> victimized by rot, milldew, green spot(heheh), and rust rust rust.
Oh yes, in California it never rains, relative humidity is always
below 5%, and the sun always shines. If you believe that, you are
spending too much time in travel magazines. By the way, I rode my
bicycle in Germany for six years and spent time in some of the worst
weather in US Army mountain warfare training areas among other things.
I also rode many miles in winter, see:
http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/
> Have you seen the price of a GTV!!! or a '58 ford wagon? My god.
> Listen if e.merkx rode it take it over to the shop and have them
> strip and paint it.
I don't get it. This must be an "IN" joke. What are you implying?
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin
>> layer of liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel
>> frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
>> be best to use for this purpose?
> Fort treat theirs in-house after painting, using linseed oil.
More tying and soldering, and by a company that should know better,
and maybe they do.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my
> track bike.
So how does sweat get inside the frame tubes?
> I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can
> create a stress riser and contribute to a crack failure as opposed
> to rusting through. I broke a steel frame that was seriously rusted
> on the inside and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it
> just cracked -- or both in some measure. The frame had been
> totalled after an accident and rebuilt as a fixer-commuter. I never
> cleaned it, and it accumulated a good amount of water in the down
> tube which was fairly well sealed off by a Phil BB. It cracked all
> the way around the down tube about a half-inch above the BB, and
> rusty water poured out.
From this I take it you must have hung it upside down in the rain.
How does the downtube fill with water when it is open to the BB shell
that cannot get fuller than the lower side of the spindle. If you
really had a sealed BB then the bearings should have been a clue that
something was wrong.
So explain how water got in the down tube. I can only imagine that
the frame repair left a rag in there for a moisture wick.
Alexey Merz
> Alexey Merz writes:
>
> >>> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin
> >>> layer of liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel
> >>> frame to avoid rust. If so, does anyone know what substance would
> >>> be best to use for this purpose?
>
> >> Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a
> >> hypothetical consideration brought on by frame failures that
> >> occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube
> >> (the tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a
> >> rust wick.
>
> >> If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick
> >> grease is good enough) there won't be enough moisture in the frame
> >> to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode
> >> steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting
> >> in all weather or more. Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by
> >> fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the
> >> 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???
>
> > But are you riding in places (like, say, northern New England and
> > not the Bay Area or the Alps or Sierra in the Summer) where they use
> > so much salt that the dried crust is caked up on the surface of your
> > car the day after you've washed it?
>
> How does the sale on the road get in the frame? If the seat post
> clamp zone is sealed, there should be no road water entering the
> frame.
Through the head tube: the lower BB shell area on my bikes at least is
surprisingly quickly contaminated with emulsified greasy salt-paste,
when I ride in heavy weather (there is not adequate fender clearance
on my current road bike. Maybe it's time to use a better-sealed BB.
> Besides, most of these frame tube treatments are either
> damaging if they are curing paint-like coatings that cover a patina of
> rust without good adherence. They build a capillary that can fill but
> not dry out if moisture were to enter that gap, which it will since it
> is not covering all parts. Oils do no good because water penetrates
> oils, makes an emulsion and accelerates rust. Try oiling an ax and
> leaving it out doors in the rain.
That depends. why don't you put a cake of beeswax in a bathtub of room
temperature water and get back to me when it's emulsified. A wax
that's been surface-deposited by an organic solvent carrier that then
evaporates is not readily emulsified by water. Lipid biochemistry is
what I spend 50+ hours a week on, and I do prepare lipid suspensions
with some regularity - from films made by organic
(chloroform/methanol) deposition. Even with medium-chain (C12)
unsaturated fatty acids, mechanical mixing (sonication) is generally
required for efficient emulsification. A wax will be much, much harder
to emulsify.
> > In almost 15 years of nearly daily commuting and a winter of
> > messengering in Portland, Oregon, I didn't worry and as you say I
> > did not have problems. But late Winter/early Spring in New
> > Hampshire - that's another kettle of (saltwater) fish. Boeshield in
> > my frames might or might not help, but I am willing to spend a
> > couple of bucks to try, and I'm not about to order a second custom
> > road frame to ride on alternate days as an untreated control.
>
> You might as well throw salt over your shoulder as put some spray in
> goop in the frame tubes. Making sure there isn't a leak somewhere on
> the frame is the important effort.
I seal the seat tube/seatpost junction on my MtB with a section of
snug-fitting inner tube; the seat clamp area on that bike doesn't
provide a particularly effective seal, even with grease.
And yes, I recognize that my small efforts may be in vain, or
unneeded. So I spend a small amount of time and money for some chance
of reducing a modest risk. We make choices all the time based on
insufficient information, and I don't suggest that in such situations
you should make the same choice as me. So What's the Problem?
> > This is not irrational. Anyone who has spent any time in a maritime
> > setting knows about salt water and corrosion of steel. What I
> > *don't* know is how much the Boeshield will help. My hope is that
> > the Boeshield will reduce corrosion damage, and prolong the life of
> > the frame - but it's only a couple of bucks and I'll probably never
> > know whether it helped or not.
>
> Sure, my car windshield is all crusty after I drive down the coast to
> Santa Cruz.
I spent most of my childhood living in Santa Cruz, Jobst. We're
talking about _vastly_ different amounts of salt accumulation here and
there.
g.daniels
paradigm absolute penetration of all cracks seams windows and what
have you-limitless!!!!TRUST ME ON THIS. HAVE FAITH. if worrying about
it. do something!(then you won't need to worrynabout it anymore.
Jay Beattie
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:FXRda.1871$eb1.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Jay Beattie writes:
>
> > Sweat is a killer! I have some nasty rust under the paint on my
> > track bike.
>
> So how does sweat get inside the frame tubes?
Under the paint. Not in the tube. There was probably a rock ding or
some other discontinuity which allowed the sweat to seep under the paint
and make things scabby. I always ragged down the frame after roller
riding, but there is still some rust on the underside of the down-tube
near the BB shell.
>
> > I would like to hear from the metalurgists about whether rust can
> > create a stress riser and contribute to a crack failure as opposed
> > to rusting through. I broke a steel frame that was seriously rusted
> > on the inside and always wondered whether it rusted through or if it
> > just cracked -- or both in some measure. The frame had been
> > totalled after an accident and rebuilt as a fixer-commuter. I never
> > cleaned it, and it accumulated a good amount of water in the down
> > tube which was fairly well sealed off by a Phil BB. It cracked all
> > the way around the down tube about a half-inch above the BB, and
> > rusty water poured out.
>
> From this I take it you must have hung it upside down in the rain.
> How does the downtube fill with water when it is open to the BB shell
> that cannot get fuller than the lower side of the spindle. If you
> really had a sealed BB then the bearings should have been a clue that
> something was wrong.
I assume the water entered through the key-hole slot on the seat tube or
around the seat post or through the bottle-bosses on the seat tube or
down tube which were not always plugged. The bottom braket shell was
not drilled, and the water that came out after the frame failed probably
was sloshing around at the bottom of the bottom bracket shell. The
water could not exit easily around the Phil BB, which as you know, is a
cartridge unit. The lock rings make a pretty good seal between the O.D.
of the cartridge and the BB shell. That rusty water poured out is a bit
of an overstatement -- but it did trickle out of the BB when the bike
was layed over for inspection. The BB unit was a rusty, too, even
though the shell of the Phil BB is stainless steel. Like I said, this
bike was already a wreck.
This bike was ridden in Oregon in the rain five days a week for probably
three to four months a year for probably three or four years. It was
ridden and raced for five years in Ca. before that. It failed during a
rainy season (although on a dry day). It had a dented seat tube from a
car crash and it was virtually never cleaned. The bearings were dry
because the grease had been washed out by rain and probably not because
of water in the BB shell. The bearings in a Phil BB are not exposed to
the inside of the BB shell. And again, I am not saying it rusted
through -- it was just rusty inside, and it broke.
> So explain how water got in the down tube. I can only imagine that
> the frame repair left a rag in there for a moisture wick.
See above. -- Jay Beattie.