Freon R12 Regulation
you can't buy the 20# or smaller sizes without a certification license.
Checked it out with EPA. Call 1-800-296-1996. They'll send you the info.
So save the $20 that MAC wants to certify you for using 1# ($10)
containers and get yourself a 30# ($300) container!!!
In 1995 R12 production will cease. As the supply dwindles and the
recovered (from repairs etc.) freon is used up, your 30# bottle will
approach the value of gold! There is another dilemma yet to be faced.
Once the gas is gone, every R12 system (and that includes most of the
1995 auto a/c's) that goes into the shop for a minor leak can only be
fixed by replacing the entire system- compressor, evaporator, condenser
etc. because there is not technology for a "drop in" refrigerant gas
replacement (it won't work in today's hardware). Does that mean that
the selling price of used cars falls much faster now? It does to me.
Oh, it doesn't end there. The proposed replacement technology--is it
R134 or R143 or somesuch--is going to be phased out in a few years
with no prospects of a "drop-in" there either.
The Crash-n-ator
>Oh, it doesn't end there. The proposed replacement technology--is it
>R134 or R143 or somesuch--is going to be phased out in a few years
>with no prospects of a "drop-in" there either.
>
So where did you hear this??
---
Rick Lindstedt Email: ri...@sparky.uark.edu
University of Arkansas 87 IROC-Z
Fayetteville, AR "Chevy Thunder"
George Goble
>
>Oh, it doesn't end there. The proposed replacement technology--is it
>R134 or R143 or somesuch--is going to be phased out in a few years
>with no prospects of a "drop-in" there either.
>
developed for automotive A/C.. The auto industry and MACS managed to
get them all banned or boycotted onto the shelf.
Only the auto industry "requested" R-134a is allowed or marketed now.
Automotive PAG oils used for R-134a are very sensitive to moisture and
chloride (from R-12 prev in the system). PAG oils are fine for "new"
manufacture (== new car or complete new A/C system), but conveniently
fail after 6mo-yr if R-11/R-12 was ever in the system. Ester based
R-134a oils may do better, but are EXTREMELY moisture sensitive and
may be lower lubricity than PAG or mineral (R-12) oils. The right
additives may eventually allow esters to make retrofits work and be
stable.
With approx 150 million R-12 cars out there, needing recharges every
1-2 years, say if 2/3 of them "sweat" when the R-12 is gone, and
around 1/3 of them "trade early" for a new car (to get factory
R-134a), this amounts to 50,000,000 X $10,000 or around $1/2 trillion
in extra new car sales.. You go figure why there are no substitutes
anymore..
Wonder if anybody has tried to take an R-12 system, leave in the
R-12 "mineral oil" (which is stable), add an oil separator to
the system and charge it with R-134a? R-134a needs special oils
since mineral oils do not dissolve (miscible) in R-134a, and the
oil gets stranded in the evaporator (cooling coils) and does not
make it back to the compresor which fails from lack of oil. An
oil separator captures the oil spray off the compressor and
returns it to the compressor, so it does not get trapped in
the evaporator. They have been used for years on oil immiscible
systems such as CO2 and Ammonia refrigerants. Temprite makes
a very good separator, the 900 series. There are about $65,
qty one, and would drop to $35 or so if mass produced in qty.
The only problem I see with this "solution" is that there is almost no
money to be made (except by Temprite) by service shops or
the auto-industry. Why use a $35 (+ labor) oil separator to get R-134a
when they should be able to snooker you into a new car instead?
--ghg
[Inventor of GHG R-12 substitute (R-406A), originally developed
for Auto A/C drop-in, now only available for stationary A/C systems]
Milo
name/formula for R-134a? What is the reason that it would be phased
out?
--
There are people who stictly deprive themselves of each and every eatable,
drinkable, and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady reputation.
They pay this price for health. And health is all they get for it. How
strange it is. It is like paying out your whole fortune for a cow that
has gone dry.
--Mark Twain
Jon Hacker
>Is R-134a really going to be phased out too? What is the chemical
>name/formula for R-134a? What is the reason that it would be phased
>out?
I have not heard about this except as a net rumour.
In any case it is not inconceivable that it might happen. R134a as
it stands is not allowed to be vented just like R-12. This, obviously leads
one to ponder why, if this is a safer substitute, are similar
restrictions being placed on it that also apply to R-12. Some
tests on R-134a I believe have shown it to cause tumours in
rat testicles, and since R134a is relatively new (less than 10
years old as I recall) there may well be some unpleasant surprises
yet to be discovered about it. Just keep that wallet open, I'm
sure you won't mind paying to retrofit your A/C's a second time,
now will you?
Jon Hacker | OS/2 2.11
Bellcore | TCP/IP SLIP
George Goble
1) R-134a (tetrafluoroethane) has some global warming potential
but so does CO2, and we put out millions of Tones of that.
2) Those which make the rules have connections to those who
would like to sell another 400,000 recycling machines, since
one cannot "mix" -134a and -12. You need another recycler..
ala $2500 or so..
I wonder if 1) is the "official" listed reason, driven by 2).??
--ghg
Green Eric L
In article OAA2...@cs.utexas.edu, NRL...@ccf3.nrl.navy.mil (EMAIL) writes:
>Oh, it doesn't end there. The proposed replacement technology--is it
>R134 or R143 or somesuch--is going to be phased out in a few years
>with no prospects of a "drop-in" there either.
So where did you hear this??
It's a hot rumor making the rounds of air conditioning shops.
"All this new refrigerant stuff is just a scam by the refrigerant
and refrigerant equipment industry," they say. "They're doing this stuff
to make us buy new equipment, and once everybody is switched over to the
new refrigerant and has the right equipment to deal with it, then they're
going to legislate yet another new refrigerant so they can soak us
consumers for more money."
They may have a point... it's doubtful that R134 would be the replacement
for R12 if the EPA allowed several good drop-ins to be used. Instead,
those direct replacements for R12 have been outlawed for auto air
conditioning use so that the "industry standard" incompatible replacement
can be pushed upon the consumers.
--
Eric Lee Green e...@usl.edu (318) 984-1820
P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509
Cris Hannu
> In message <miloCrL...@netcom.com> - mi...@netcom.com (Milo) writes:
> >Is R-134a really going to be phased out too? What is the chemical
> >name/formula for R-134a? What is the reason that it would be phased
> >out?
>
> I have not heard about this except as a net rumour.
>
there isn't the *dreaded* chlorine atom to worry about. It won't
be phased out of production (yet). What *will* be phased out are
the HCFCs (R-22, R-123, etc...) by 1/1/2030. CFCs (except for
medical use) will be phased out by 1/1/96.
Cris
--
Cris Hannu | Windsurfing the high country.
Cray Research, Inc. |
@NCAR - Boulder, CO | ^ ^
c...@windsurf.scd.ucar.edu | / \ ___)___ / \
Tom Penny
: Automotive PAG oils used for R-134a are very sensitive to moisture and
: chloride (from R-12 prev in the system). PAG oils are fine for "new"
: manufacture (== new car or complete new A/C system), but conveniently
: fail after 6mo-yr if R-11/R-12 was ever in the system. Ester based
: R-134a oils may do better, but are EXTREMELY moisture sensitive and
: may be lower lubricity than PAG or mineral (R-12) oils. The right
: additives may eventually allow esters to make retrofits work and be
: stable.
This is accurate as I understand it.
: With approx 150 million R-12 cars out there, needing recharges every
: 1-2 years, say if 2/3 of them "sweat" when the R-12 is gone, and
: around 1/3 of them "trade early" for a new car (to get factory
: R-134a), this amounts to 50,000,000 X $10,000 or around $1/2 trillion
: in extra new car sales.. You go figure why there are no substitutes
: anymore..
But this is complete bullsh*t (there, I cursed on the net :-)
1) Most R-12 cars I know of have never been recharged, and still work
quite adequately in 90+ degree weather (this includes an '81 Buick)
2) Your missing a big retrofit market if 2/3 of the people would rather
sweat than buy a new car
3) Most substitutes contain seriously stupid substances for an A/C system.
Do you really want propane (yes PROPANE!) leaking into your car because
you bought OZ-12 instead of paying to get your evaporator fixed? What
happens when an electrical relay makes a little spark?
: Wonder if anybody has tried to take an R-12 system, leave in the
: R-12 "mineral oil" (which is stable), add an oil separator to
: the system and charge it with R-134a? R-134a needs special oils
: since mineral oils do not dissolve (miscible) in R-134a, and the
: oil gets stranded in the evaporator (cooling coils) and does not
: make it back to the compresor which fails from lack of oil. An
: oil separator captures the oil spray off the compressor and
: returns it to the compressor, so it does not get trapped in
: the evaporator. They have been used for years on oil immiscible
: systems such as CO2 and Ammonia refrigerants. Temprite makes
: a very good separator, the 900 series. There are about $65,
: qty one, and would drop to $35 or so if mass produced in qty.
Versus mass produced in small numbers? (giggle)
- Department of Redundancy Department
: The only problem I see with this "solution" is that there is almost no
: money to be made (except by Temprite) by service shops or
: the auto-industry. Why use a $35 (+ labor) oil separator to get R-134a
: when they should be able to snooker you into a new car instead?
Hey, if you know how to do that, why not sell retrofit kits at $500
apiece to the 2/3 of the people who are sweating? Personally, I don't
think retrofits will take off until they're cheaper than fixing and
refilling with R-12. Why should I try a substitute when my '88 works
just fine now?
Seriously, there probably is some degree of corruption going on in the
law making process, but to say they want to sell everybody a new car
in order for them to have A/C is going just a bit far.
: --ghg
Jon Hacker
>3) Most substitutes contain seriously stupid substances for an A/C system.
>Do you really want propane (yes PROPANE!) leaking into your car because
>you bought OZ-12 instead of paying to get your evaporator fixed? What
>happens when an electrical relay makes a little spark?
>
Oh no! This thread again, and we haven't even made it to summer yet!
There are quite a few substitutes. Only one is flammable as mixed. Why do
you imply that 'most' have propane? Dupont SUVA MP-52 doesn't. GHG-12
doesn't(it has 6-8% isobutane but isn't flammable, similar to R-12 which
has 10-15% flammable compressor oil in it.).
The only flammable one I know of is OZ-12 which is 21% isobutane 79%
propane. Presumably this is the one you are all tied in a knot about.
Hardly qualifies as most though. Its kind of like those tire inflators
that often charge a butane/propane mix.
Greg Vogel
: >3) Most substitutes contain seriously stupid substances for an A/C system.
: >Do you really want propane (yes PROPANE!) leaking into your car because
: >you bought OZ-12 instead of paying to get your evaporator fixed? What
: >happens when an electrical relay makes a little spark?
: >
: Oh no! This thread again, and we haven't even made it to summer yet!
: There are quite a few substitutes. Only one is flammable as mixed. Why do
: you imply that 'most' have propane? Dupont SUVA MP-52 doesn't. GHG-12
: doesn't(it has 6-8% isobutane but isn't flammable, similar to R-12 which
: has 10-15% flammable compressor oil in it.).
I heard of MP-52 for the first time this week-end and now you have
mentioned it. I have followed this discussion as close as I can
and I'm wondering if this may not be the best solution. How does it react
with the oil being used in R12 systems? Is it easily available? What
about the GHG-12, how does it mix? and how is it's availability? Why is
it only for standstill systems?....
: The only flammable one I know of is OZ-12 which is 21% isobutane 79%
: propane. Presumably this is the one you are all tied in a knot about.
: Hardly qualifies as most though. Its kind of like those tire inflators
: that often charge a butane/propane mix.
: Jon Hacker | OS/2 2.11
: Bellcore | TCP/IP SLIP
I dont think OZ-12 is a viable alternative given the down sides (flamability)
--
"When in doubt, throw a
Frisbee" G.V.
gjv...@netcom.com San Diego
E. Michael Smith
This may vary by state. This weekend I had a fellow tell me
that California had decided on the 20th of this month. Don't
know if he was right or not; but there was a sign up saying
that you needed a licence to buy at Costco ...
>So save the $20 that MAC wants to certify you for using 1# ($10)
>containers and get yourself a 30# ($300) container!!!
Um, at Price/Costco in San Jose and in Mountain View the #30
can was/is going for $219.95 or so ...
At the Auto Parts Club in Santa Clara it was $239.xx and they
take credit cards ;-)
Shop around...
>Once the gas is gone, every R12 system (and that includes most of the
>1995 auto a/c's) that goes into the shop for a minor leak can only be
>fixed by replacing the entire system- compressor, evaporator, condenser
>etc. because there is not technology for a "drop in" refrigerant gas
>replacement (it won't work in today's hardware).
This is not true.
There are at least 2 'drop in' replacement technologies. You can
use a blend of iso-butane/propane (I've run it in a Honda and it
works just dandy). This has a risk of flamability (that some of
us think is near trivial risk) and is at present not an APPROVED
technology, but it does exist and works well.
You can also use GHG-R-12 Replacement. A patented blend that is
a mostly-non-flamable mix and improves your AC effectiveness at
the same time. It is not significantly more of a fire risk than
R-12 blended with lube oil. It also is not an APPROVED FOR CARS
solution, but I've heard that it has been approved for non-auto use.
For retrofits, you MAY be able to just flush your system and drop
in R-134a with an oil change. Castrol has a new oil that is reputed
to solve many of the problems the old PAG? oil caused. You do lose
about 20% on AC capacity, but don't have to change any parts.
Even if you used R-134a with PAG oil, you get a year to two in
many cases before it would consume your compressor/core/whatever
so why would you want to replace them up front? Just do the
R-134a swap and LATER replace any parts that fail ...
>Does that mean that
>the selling price of used cars falls much faster now? It does to me.
I hope so ... I'm looking forward to getting some 'broken AC sell cheap'
cars in the future and doing near trivial fixes on them...
>Oh, it doesn't end there. The proposed replacement technology--is it
>R134 or R143 or somesuch--is going to be phased out in a few years
>with no prospects of a "drop-in" there either.
Oh really? Source please?
--
E. Michael Smith
Manager of Stuff
Cygnus Support
George Goble
>Jon Hacker (hac...@patagonia.bellcore.com) wrote:
>: In message <2u52vb$h...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> - pen...@wpi.edu (Tom Penny) writes:
>
>: >3) Most substitutes contain seriously stupid substances for an A/C system.
>: >Do you really want propane (yes PROPANE!) leaking into your car because
>: >you bought OZ-12 instead of paying to get your evaporator fixed? What
>: >happens when an electrical relay makes a little spark?
>: >
>
>: Oh no! This thread again, and we haven't even made it to summer yet!
>
>: There are quite a few substitutes. Only one is flammable as mixed. Why do
>: you imply that 'most' have propane? Dupont SUVA MP-52 doesn't. GHG-12
>: doesn't(it has 6-8% isobutane but isn't flammable, similar to R-12 which
>: has 10-15% flammable compressor oil in it.).
"GHG-12" (an incorrect name), it is supposed to be called "GHG R-12
Substitute" or "R-406a" is 4% R-600a (Isobutane), 41% R-142b (chloro-
difluoroethane), 55% R-22 (chlorodifluoromethane) by weight. It is covered
under US patents 5,151,207 and 5,214,929. The name "GHG-12" implies
that it is 100% CFC-12, R-12, dichlorodifluoromethane or whatever, which
is not correct. For example, Dupont makes "Freon-12", Allied Signal
makes "Genetron-12", Atochem made "Isotron-12" (now Forane-12?).
Anything-12 is supposed to be a trade name for CFC-12. "OZ-12"
violates this also. I suppose that "GHG-406a" would be a legal name,
but I haven't heard anybody use that one yet.
>
>I heard of MP-52 for the first time this week-end and now you have
>mentioned it. I have followed this discussion as close as I can
>and I'm wondering if this may not be the best solution. How does it react
>with the oil being used in R12 systems? Is it easily available? What
>about the GHG-12, how does it mix? and how is it's availability? Why is
>it only for standstill systems?....
MP-52 (also known as R-401c) requires the compressor mineral oil to
be changed to alkylbenzene oil and possibly the drier desiccant may
need to be changed from the standard XH5 to XH9. It leaks faster
through non-barrier (i.e nitrile) hoses, but is fine for barrier
(nylon lined) hoses, which are common on American cars. Unlike
an R-134a "retrofit", which needs "PAG" oil, the MP-52/alkylbenzene
oil is stable chemistry and does not result in oil destruction.
I don't know about availability, you have to ask Dupont, they make it.
>
GHG also leaks faster through nitrile hoses, but worked fine with
barrier hoses.. GHG needed no oil change or change of desiccant type.
GHG R-406a is available now, but it can only be sold/used for non-
automotive uses in the US. There is nolonger a pending application
for automotive use of GHG with the EPA.. It was withdrawn last year.
Selling or using GHG or other "non EPA SNAP automotive listed" refrigerants
in automotive use [to replace CFC-12] can result in huge EPA fines (tens of
thousands of $$$) with big rewards to those whom turn you in. Jail terms
are also possible.
>: The only flammable one I know of is OZ-12 which is 21% isobutane 79%
>: propane. Presumably this is the one you are all tied in a knot about.
>: Hardly qualifies as most though. Its kind of like those tire inflators
>: that often charge a butane/propane mix.
>
>: Jon Hacker | OS/2 2.11
>: Bellcore | TCP/IP SLIP
>
>I dont think OZ-12 is a viable alternative given the down sides (flamability)
Some other companies are surfacing which market hydrocarbon
refrigerants (probably propane/isobutane).. some are offering under
the hood fire extinguishers.. One was in USA today, classifieds,
yesterday..
We have heard of some of the hydrocarbon refrigerant companies are
simply ignoring the EPA and selling anyway (wonder how long that
will last?) or claiming to be a "substitute for a substitute"
(not a substitute for CFC-12) or "a substitute for R-134a", etc..
to beat the "ban".
>
>
>--
>"When in doubt, throw a
> Frisbee" G.V.
>gjv...@netcom.com San Diego
--ghg
E. Michael Smith
>George Goble (g...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
>1) Most R-12 cars I know of have never been recharged, and still work
>quite adequately in 90+ degree weather (this includes an '81 Buick)
My experience based on about 8 vehicles (German, Japanese, American)
over about 14 years is that ON AVERAGE I needed 1 to 2 pounds per
vehicle year. MOST of this was due to a metal header pipe to
my '80 Honda AC that suffered fatigue cracking twice and lost it's load.
That was about 6 lbs in 14 years.
Another Honda had a stuck filling valve once and lost it's load.
3 lbs in 8 years.
The Ford truck wanted a can of freon once in 4 years. The Scout
never leaked in about 7 years.
The 2 Mercedes are a bit new to me, but so far it has been 2 cans
used mostly because the AC mechanics wanted to dump a can in as
a 'first step and $18 easy money' befor doing the real work of
finding out what was really wrong (rubber shipping plug left in the
condenser by the geek who replaced it after a minor front end accident...
I bought the car used that way and figured out the story after... )
A couple of other Fords took no freon and one Dodge needed a can/year
or so due to leakage. The GM truck seemd imune to leakage as well.
At this rate, at #30 can is a 15-30 vehicle-year supply ...
Call it 2 Mercedes for 10 years each 8-)
>3) Most substitutes contain seriously stupid substances for an A/C system.
>Do you really want propane (yes PROPANE!) leaking into your car because
>you bought OZ-12 instead of paying to get your evaporator fixed?
Well, yes, I would like to have a propane leak, but I'd use it to
tell met that the evaporator really did need fixing rather than just
adding more blend. One of the Hondas was converted to iso-butane/propane
mix for a while. Worked well. Why do it? First off, I didn't
want to dump a SECOND load of R-12 if the 'fix' didn't.
(i.e. I used the blend as a test refrigerant to conserve the
R-12 in the long run...) AFTER proving the system is still well
sealed (the 'scent' in the propane helps alot here) then I can
convert it back to R-12 at my liesure.
IF my evaporator is leaking (unlikely. Most often in my
experience leaks are, in order: Broken pipe dumps whole load,
seals at compressor leak slowly into well ventilated engine
space, a filling valve leaks slowly into the engine compartment.
NO OTHER LEAK TYPES EXPERIENCED.) But say it did...
What would happen is simple. I'd smell propane and KNOW I
had a leak into the passenger compartment. Then I'd open
a window ... You will smell the mercaptan long before their
is significant propane leaked. In the case of a major leak,
you pull over, open the hood, and dump the load by pushing
on the valve.
There are two realistic cases. The leak is so slow that there
is no fire risk. The leak is fast enough that you smell it
and take corrective action befor enough accumulates to be
a fire risk.
BTW, I've sprayed a LOT of propane around under the hood
with the engine running and NOTHING HAPPENED. (Well, when
it was near the air intake the engine ran a bit faster...).
This was with the car stationary. In motion the ventilation
would be even better. In the case of 'pipe breaks/lost load'
I'd expect nothing to happen. (Yes, I guess I am a little
bit prone to 'kitchen science'... but the way to KNOW something
is to TRY it ... and the car was a cheap old one so I figured
if it DID catch fire it would be for the advance of knowledge!
And I wanted to know that a lost load was reasonably safe...)
>What
>happens when an electrical relay makes a little spark?
Nothing much.
Yes, I've tried it. It is not nearly as easy to light off a weak
propane leak in air as you seem to think.
BTW, as a 'sop' to flamability issues I decided to blend 1/3 R-12
in with the iso-butane/propane mix to reduce flamability even more.
(And I wanted to find out if the mixture was truely compatible.)
I store the 'blend' in a standard Propane Torch tank and use
a Turner/Weller propane torch valve body with a pipe adapter
in place of the torch head ... )
Wes Fujii
: One of the Hondas was converted to iso-butane/propane
: mix for a while.
Where do you get the iso-butane? I figured you could find it in
camp stove cylinders somewhere, but it seems all I can find around
here is propane.
Wes Fujii
________________________________________________________________
___ ___ ___
/ / / // /
/ /__/ // / A real motor is an Oldsmobile Rocket 455
/ HURST // / "This is NOT the new generation of Olds"
/ / / // /_______
/__/ /__// // ___ \
/ // / \ \ Wes "BANZAI" Fujii
/ // /OLDS/ / Boise, Idaho
/ / \ \___/ / we...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
/__/ \_______/
Dave Williams
-> Some other companies are surfacing which market hydrocarbon
-> refrigerants (probably propane/isobutane).
I acquired one of the large (empty) R-12 bottles, various adapters and
fittings, a bottle of propane, and other items needed to try the
propane/isobutane mix in my car. Finding propane was a pain in the ass
- "propane", at least around here, seems to be the same as "wellhead
gas", meaning it might be propane, it might be butane, or it might be a
mixture of those, plus anything else gaseous they had available. What I
have is *supposed* to be propane.
The iso-butane has become a problem. I haven't found any anywhere, and
I've looked in four states. I can get it at laboratory supply houses in
huge lots, but I'd like to avoid that.
Green Eric L
The iso-butane has become a problem. I haven't found any anywhere, and
I've looked in four states. I can get it at laboratory supply houses in
Interesting. Have you looked under "Gas-Liquefied Petroleum-Bottled & Bulk"
in your Yellow Pages?
George Goble
Try Phillips-66, Borger TX. Use grade "Pure" (99.0% purity)..
They used to sell it in 115 (approx) lb cylinders, also an
approx 250lb cylinder. Camping stores here used to (or still do)
carry isobutane stove fuel..Gallions in Indy has it also..
Watch out, as most fuel is "butane" or "butane/propane" mixtures.
You need isobutane (B.P. 10F) instead of butane (B.P. 31F), since
the latter may not boil off and may return and "slug" the compressor,
busting the valves.
--ghg
Robert M. Johnson
It IS an interesting and financially significant issue, which has become
overgrown by ideological verbiage. I'm sure that many of the facts embodied
in this thread would be on interest to a lot of car owners.
- Bob Johnson
Frank Evan Perdicaro
I have mentioned this before, and will say it again. Iso Butane is
eaisly available! REI has it on the shelf. I have bought a few
cans; they are headed for my Chevelle.
I will ship it to you, in case lots if you REALLY want me to. I'll
just double the price and send it UPS.
--
Frank Evan Perdicaro Dainippon Screen Engineering of America
Legalize guns, drugs and cash...today. 3700 Segerstrom Ave
inhouse: frank@rebel, x210 Santa Ana CA
outhouse: fr...@dsea.com, 714-546-9491x210 92704 DoD:1097
John De Armond
>I heard of MP-52 for the first time this week-end and now you have
>mentioned it. I have followed this discussion as close as I can
>and I'm wondering if this may not be the best solution. How does it react
>with the oil being used in R12 systems?
Incompatable.
>Is it easily available?
If you have a green card.
>What about the GHG-12, how does it mix?
In all proportions. Topping off an R-12 system with R-406a (let's call it
by its offical name.) works fine, though not recommended.
>and how is it's availability?
In 30 lb cans from Monroe Airtech (800 424 3836) Price competative with
R-12.
>Why is it only for standstill systems?....
Strictly politics. It was developed for mobile applications. MACS and
SAE, the trade groups who stand to make the most money from
an R-134a economy, got the Bush EPA to ban it and all other substitutes.
The Clinton EPA took another look, realized the ban was political and
mostly reversed itself. Political inerta and the inability of an agency
to admit to multiple screwups all at once has held back the lifting of
the mobile ban. It will come, as soon as some time passes.
>I dont think OZ-12 is a viable alternative given the down sides (flamability)
Why? Flammability is not an issue of substance. It is strictly an
emotional issue. Consider:
* R-12/oil is flammable and explosive, as a video made by George Goble
and the Indy fire department so well demonstrates.
* A charge of OZ-12 weighs about a pound (about half as dense as freon).
That's about the same amount of isobutane as in 2 cans of aerosol
paint. You DO buy and carry home aerosol paint and the like, right?
* If flammability of a flammable compressed gas contained inside a piping
system in a car really is an issue, then propane, CNG and hydrogen-fueled
cars MUST be banned.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA j...@dixie.com
Performance Engineering Magazine. Email to me published at my sole discretion
Clinton at Normandy for D-day is worse than Hitler presiding over the
Holocaust Museum.
E. Michael Smith
>>In article <8362.8...@chaos.lrk.ar.us> dave.w...@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes:
>> The iso-butane has become a problem. I haven't found any anywhere, and
>> I've looked in four states. I can get it at laboratory supply houses in
Go to your local Optimus Camping Stove dealer. (i.e. most any
decent camping store) and look for the small (about 6 oz) cans.
No, not the GAZ cans for that French stove, they use Butane/Propane mix.
You want the taller can that looks like a small can of shaving cream.
Cost is about $2-$3 at most places. Mel Cottons and REI Coop have
it for sure (here in San Jose/Cupertino/Palo Alto/Berkeley ).
>Try Phillips-66, Borger TX. Use grade "Pure" (99.0% purity)..
>They used to sell it in 115 (approx) lb cylinders, also an
>approx 250lb cylinder. Camping stores here used to (or still do)
>carry isobutane stove fuel..Gallions in Indy has it also..
I'd expect to find it at most camping stoves.
>Watch out, as most fuel is "butane" or "butane/propane" mixtures.
The camping stuff is clearly labled "ISO BUTANE" ... in modestly
small print under the "Camping Fuel" lable ...
You can get a 'vampire tap' from JC Whitney that side-punches the
can ... Cost was about $9 last time I looked.
Put the iso-butane in something first, then add the propane...
In playing with this mix I found that you could run OK on a mix
with too much Iso-butane in it (i.e. both high side and low side
pressures were too low); but the stuff really works best when
the mix is right (i.e. when low side and high side were rather
close to their R-12 values for a similar air temperature).
Too much Propane and the pressure goes up FAST on the high side, so
add slowly.
Also, it may be my imagination, but the AC seemed to make more cool
when there were some moderate bubbles in the sight glass. If I went all
the way to no bubbles, there wasn't as much felt cooling. Maybe the
lowside was starting to have liquid left and the evaporation was
less efficient? This seemed true for the mix and for R-12 ...
Pressure in my Honda was 32 lbs low side, 150 lbs high side at
about 75F ambient at warm idle. The Benz was at 200 lbs high side.
(Both on R-12)
E. Michael Smith
>E. Michael Smith (e...@cygnus.com) wrote:
>: One of the Hondas was converted to iso-butane/propane
>: mix for a while.
>
>Where do you get the iso-butane? I figured you could find it in
>camp stove cylinders somewhere, but it seems all I can find around
>here is propane.
You ought to be able to get it at any Yuppie Camping Goods Store.
REI Coop has it (and has several stores all over the place...
Washington, Oregon, and California at least?). They also do
some stuff mail order.
Mel Cotton has it (local traditional camping store).
Check out the local camping goods stores in Idaho ... ask if
they have Optimus stoves...
DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating that anyone run on this mix all the
time. I've only talked about it in a theoretical way, and only ran
if for a while as a test of the system integrity with respect to leaks.
I then took it out and stored it safely in a high pressure canister.
What you do is your own fault, don't blame me. I have 'professional
mechanics' service my AC with real R-12. I don't do anything the EPA
would ever care about and never knowingly break the law.
Gee, I wonder if they will hit folks with the $10k fine for 'leaking
freon' after an accident pops their condenser? Don't laugh! We've
had several cases of airplanes going into the SF Bay or boats sinking
where the pilots were FINED by the Coast Guard, EPA or Calif Equiv.
for hydrocarbon pollution due to their fuel leaking out(!).
Clearly a case of the state being in it only for the money... since
no one ever plans to crash their plane ... Gee, I can see it now ...
The cop comes on the scene of a 'fender bender' that slightly
breaks the grill and condenser: "Mam, I'm gonna have to write
you up for a $10k fine, since your car is an R-12 model and
you have leaked it all over the place. Please sign here."