Darth Sidious (was: re: When did Brin start to suck?)
Johnny1A
Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>b...@templetons.com (Brad Templeton) wrote in message
>I'm not saying that this is the case, only that it could be. In that
>case, Sidious could be someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if
>>Palpatine turns out to be Sidious' successor as Sith Master. I also
>>wouldn't be surprised if Sidious and Palpatine are indeed one and
the
>>same. I don't know if Lucas has even decided that for sure as yet.
>
>Unless they are clones, it makes no sense to have the same actor
>play them. And the final line, where Palpatine says "I'll be
>watching you, young Jedi" directly in his emporor from ROTJ voice
>seems like not just a clue, but a way to directly tell the audience
>who he is. Sidious acts like he is in charge, that he can
manipulate
>the Senate, which we then see Palpatine do. Palpatine has to be
>working for Sidious if he is not Sidious, and the Jedi don't sense
that
>either. Of course neither did they sense the Sith were working _at
all_
>until Darth Maul came crashing down on them, other than a vague sense
of>
>unease from 'da Force.
>
>The Sith are very powerful. Maul and Sidious seem quite confident
that
>Maul can take out a couple of Jedi without much trouble. And
indeed,
>one on one, Maul is better than either of them, and Qui-Gonn is a
pretty
>senior Jedi.
Interesting point. Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
Shermanlee
Richard Harter
wrote:
"Hard to see, the dark side is" - Yoda.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
http://www.tiac.net/users/cri, http://www.varinoma.com
This sentence no verb. No verb needed.
English better without redundant is.
ChrisC
wrote:
>In article <b3030854.0110...@posting.google.com>,
Did the trade federation not greet palpatine as Lord Sidous? In one of
there communications?
--
ChrisC - 2E1GXO
/(o\ chri...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk
\o)/ ch...@nospam.chrispche.fsnet.co.uk
--> If I had time, a signature file would go here. <--
Ken Vale
> In article <b3030854.0110...@posting.google.com>,
> Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> >The Sith are very powerful. Maul and Sidious seem quite confident
> that
> >Maul can take out a couple of Jedi without much trouble. And
> indeed,
> >one on one, Maul is better than either of them, and Qui-Gonn is a
> pretty
> >senior Jedi.
>
> Interesting point. Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
> didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
>
> Shermanlee
Ok the Sith have spent about the last 1000 or so years hiding from the
Jedi. After a 1000 years of running and hiding it would make sense for
them to be very, very, very good at it. When the easiest way for the Jedi
to find you is to follow the "disturbance in the Force" that you make when
you use Force powers, the best way to avoid them is learn to conceal the
use of those powers. Added to that is the fact that there are probably
hundreds of Jedi on Coruscant and it becomes almost impossible to filter
out 2 Sith from the background noise of Jedi powers being used. And lastly
doesn't Yoda do something very similar for all of the later movies? He
even manages to shield their location when he was teaching Luke, mind you
both Vader and the Emperor felt the "disturbance in the Force" neither of
them could pinpoint its location (wouldn't that have been a shock, having
Luke and Yoda wake to a huge Imperial Armada in orbit) if Yoda can do it
without question then so can Sidious. And before we go into the "Well Yoda
is more powerful than Sidious" thread, let me just say that he isn't,
otherwise Yoda would have just fought him out right, destroyed him and his
deciples and we wouldn't have had the later movies.
Ken
Andrew Dennis
> And before we go into the "Well Yoda
>is more powerful than Sidious" thread, let me just say that he isn't,
>otherwise Yoda would have just fought him out right, destroyed him and his
>deciples and we wouldn't have had the later movies.
>
>Ken
>
You say that like it's a bad thing...
Andrew
Jim Cannon
Same reason why Qui-Gon didn't sense that Padme was the Amidala.
Hubris.
Great tragic flaw, usually leads to a tragic fall. And the Jedi *are*
destined for extirmination...
Jim Cannon
Carl Dershem
Lucas held back those pages of their copies of the script.
cd
Ken Vale
Well only from the point of veiw that I wouldn't get the enjoyment out of
watching them and I wouldn't be nearly the fan of SF/F that I am today.
Ken
Julie Pascal
"Jim Cannon" <can...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ed52049.01101...@posting.google.com...
> sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) didst say unto the masses...
> > Interesting point. Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
> > didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
>
> Same reason why Qui-Gon didn't sense that Padme was the Amidala.
> Hubris.
>
> Great tragic flaw, usually leads to a tragic fall. And the Jedi *are*
> destined for extirmination...
>
The Jedi knew all the time that Padme was Amidala.
When Padme attached herself to the group going to
town on Tatooine QuiGon's remarks were to let her
know that if she couldn't have it both ways.
--Julie
Johnny1A
> > Interesting point. Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
> > didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
>
> Same reason why Qui-Gon didn't sense that Padme was the Amidala.
> Hubris.
>
>
> Jim Cannon
Actually, when I saw and resaw The Phantom Menace, I was never sure if
we were supposed to think that Qui Gon knew Padme was Amidala or if he
was caught by surprise. I'm still not sure.
Shermanlee
Robert Carnegie
> Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
> > didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
> >
>
> from the Jedi. After a 1000 years of running and hiding it would
> make sense for them to be very, very, very good at it. When the
> easiest way for the Jedi to find you is to follow the "disturbance
> in the Force" that you make when you use Force powers, the best way
> to avoid them is learn to conceal the use of those powers. Added to
> that is the fact that there are probably hundreds of Jedi on
> Coruscant and it becomes almost impossible to filter out 2 Sith
> from the background noise of Jedi powers being used. And lastly
> doesn't Yoda do something very similar for all of the later movies?
> He even manages to shield their location when he was teaching Luke,
> mind you both Vader and the Emperor felt the "disturbance in the
> Force" neither of them could pinpoint its location (wouldn't that
> have been a shock, having Luke and Yoda wake to a huge Imperial
> Armada in orbit) if Yoda can do it without question then so can
> Sidious.
The bad guys never caught up with Obi-Wan Kenobi between Episodes
3 and 4, either. And of course at first meeting Luke thinks Yoda
is just a refugee from Sesame Street.
One of the followup novels suggests that the spooky cave on Dagobah
where Yoda sends Luke for a test has sufficient dark-force that it
masks Yoda's presence. Dipole, inverse cube law, did someone say?
The perceived force is reduced with distance much faster than
gravity is.
Mind you, elsewhere in one or another of those novels, Leia gets
a spooky feeling orbiting, as I recall, the forest moon of Endor -
turns out that they're passing through the exact location in space
where (spoiler?) the Emperor died. Yes, that particular part of
the interplanetary vacuum is forever cursed, and years later Endor's
moon is in exactly the same place in relation to it.
A more charitable interpretation of _that_ scene is that the Emperor's
Force-evil was broadcast outwards when he died, across the moon's
surface, and is being reflected back along the lines of polarisation.
The moon is acting like those huge parabolic solar mirrors that you
can blow things up with. Of course the moon's surface isn't a
parabola; well, strange the ways of the Force are.
> And before we go into the "Well Yoda
> is more powerful than Sidious" thread, let me just say that he isn't,
> otherwise Yoda would have just fought him out right, destroyed him
> and his deciples and we wouldn't have had the later movies.
I forget - is Yoda actually any good with a lightsabre? Maybe he has
a bad back or something.
Sea Wasp
> One of the followup novels suggests that the spooky cave on Dagobah
> where Yoda sends Luke for a test has sufficient dark-force that it
> masks Yoda's presence. Dipole, inverse cube law, did someone say?
> The perceived force is reduced with distance much faster than
> gravity is.
I think Yoda's just real good at hiding his power when he wants to.
Either that, or the "Yoda Was On The Dark Side" theory has something
to it.
>
> Mind you, elsewhere in one or another of those novels, Leia gets
> a spooky feeling orbiting, as I recall, the forest moon of Endor -
> turns out that they're passing through the exact location in space
> where (spoiler?) the Emperor died. Yes, that particular part of
> the interplanetary vacuum is forever cursed, and years later Endor's
> moon is in exactly the same place in relation to it.
Why shouldn't it be?
It's not necessarily "the location in space is cursed". It's
"something of the Emperor remained behind in the same locus" -- and
the same location could be one of two things: the same absolute place
in space (although how you determine absolute location I don't know)
or that point in THAT PARTICULAR ORBIT. I.e., just like the center of
mass of the Death Star, it remains in a particular orbit around
Endor's moon. You wouldn't have any problem with finding pieces of the
Death Star still orbiting the moon -- in fact, you'd EXPECT there to
be some pieces still there -- so why a problem with the psychic
residue staying in the same area, especially in a universe where such
psychic powers are, although rare, clearly just as real as the
starships themselves?
> I forget - is Yoda actually any good with a lightsabre? Maybe he has
> a bad back or something.
According to a couple of sources, I've heard we'll find OUT how
dangerous Yoda is in the next movie.
(My private vision is of some Dark Side master coming after Yoda
while he's having lunch. As Yoda continues eating, apparently
oblivious to the assassin, his Lightsaber levitates off the couch in
the background. The Sith and the floating lightsaber have a duel which
ends in the Sith carved into sushi, all without Yoda even turning
around to see what's happening.)
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Ross TenEyck
>Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I forget - is Yoda actually any good with a lightsabre? Maybe he has
>> a bad back or something.
> According to a couple of sources, I've heard we'll find OUT how
>dangerous Yoda is in the next movie.
> (My private vision is of some Dark Side master coming after Yoda
>while he's having lunch. As Yoda continues eating, apparently
>oblivious to the assassin, his Lightsaber levitates off the couch in
>the background. The Sith and the floating lightsaber have a duel which
>ends in the Sith carved into sushi, all without Yoda even turning
>around to see what's happening.)
Another alternative I've heard proposed is that Yoda suddenly
manifests his seven-foot-tall-fanged-clawed-lizard form, and slices
a surprised Sith into mincemeat. Lightsaber optional.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Johnny1A
I love that! It's perfectly in character, too!
If Yoda thinks there's hope for him/her/it, I can picture the
free-floating lightsabre parrying and cutting until the Sith falls to
the ground in utter exhaustion, physically and psychically, and then
Yoda turns and says something like: "The ways of Darkness futile are,
violence without purpose is."
Then he turns back to his meal.
Shermanlee
Robert Carnegie
Well, yeah, but - one, in the book, it _was_ "the location in space
is cursed". You appreciate that the cloud of evil Force is in orbit
around Endor's forest moon which is in orbit around Endor which is in
orbit around its primary star which is in orbit around the centre of
the galaxy. Leia orbits through the exact location where the Emperor's
Death Star throne room used to be, and she gets chills.
Two, wouldn't the debris form in one or more rings? Including the
psychic debris, since we're presuming that it responds to gravity too?
So when Leia's spaceship enters standard orbit, she shouldn't pass
through one point in space which feels Imperial, she should be inside
a diffuse cloud of Imperialness at all points along the orbit.
I have of course passed the point at which I should have re-read to
check this, but I don't remember which one it is. I seem to recall
that the character Mara Jade is also involved, and Leia's son Anakin
may be present, perhaps in utero - I got the feeling that little
Anakin was being set up throughout the books I've read with an
affinity for machines instead of people and easy prey for the
Dark Side. I mean, don't even the twins think he's weird?
And by my gravity logic, Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghost should also be smeared
around the orbit of the former planet Alderaan - along with Alderaan -
instead of popping up on Dagobah and Endor's moon to give friendly
advice, as we saw him do in _Return of the Jedi_.
> > I forget - is Yoda actually any good with a lightsabre? Maybe he has
> > a bad back or something.
>
> According to a couple of sources, I've heard we'll find OUT how
> dangerous Yoda is in the next movie.
>
> (My private vision is of some Dark Side master coming after Yoda
> while he's having lunch. As Yoda continues eating, apparently
> oblivious to the assassin, his Lightsaber levitates off the couch in
> the background. The Sith and the floating lightsaber have a duel which
> ends in the Sith carved into sushi, all without Yoda even turning
> around to see what's happening.)
Well, on reflection, there's a story in comicbook _Star Wars Tales_ #7
- review at http://www.echostation.com/comics/swtales7.htm - which
doesn't play _exactly_ like that, but where Yoda does strut his
stuff pretty good, over lunch. But this stuff isn't canonical -
neither are the books?
Also in that issue: "Jedi Chef, or, Pizza Hutt". I don't recall
that sushi is involved, and the review describes it as a "cookoff",
which sushi would _not_ be...?
Lorne Beaton
wrote:
>can...@my-deja.com (Jim Cannon) wrote in message
>> >
>> > Interesting point. Does anyone have a guess as to _why_ the Jedi
>> > didn't sense Palpatine's power, in _The Phantom Menace_?
>>
>> Same reason why Qui-Gon didn't sense that Padme was the Amidala.
>> Hubris.
>
>Actually, when I saw and resaw The Phantom Menace, I was never sure if
>we were supposed to think that Qui Gon knew Padme was Amidala or if he
>was caught by surprise. I'm still not sure.
Lucas makes it clear in the DVD commentary that Qui-Gon Jinn knew all
along that Padme was the Queen.
Keith Morrison
> >Actually, when I saw and resaw The Phantom Menace, I was never sure if
> >we were supposed to think that Qui Gon knew Padme was Amidala or if he
> >was caught by surprise. I'm still not sure.
>
> Lucas makes it clear in the DVD commentary that Qui-Gon Jinn knew all
> along that Padme was the Queen.
As well as Obi-Wan.
Watching the DVD made me realize the film wasn't quite as bad as I
thought it had been when I saw it in theatres. The bit with Qui-Gon
knowing actually makes some of the scenes on Tatooine sharper because
you could see he was purposefully provoking Padme instead of merely
acting like an arrogant jerk.
And finally seeing it again did remind me of one of the things I liked
about the film...the bad guy won. And did it in such a spectacular
fashion that it didn't really matter what the good guys did at the end;
win or lose, he had screwed them but good. And they were so oblivious
to getting screwed that they invited him to the party.
Like Lucas or not, that was a good piece of plotting.
--
Keith
Pete McCutchen
<kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>> Lucas makes it clear in the DVD commentary that Qui-Gon Jinn knew all
>> along that Padme was the Queen.
>
>As well as Obi-Wan.
>
>Watching the DVD made me realize the film wasn't quite as bad as I
>thought it had been when I saw it in theatres. The bit with Qui-Gon
>knowing actually makes some of the scenes on Tatooine sharper because
>you could see he was purposefully provoking Padme instead of merely
>acting like an arrogant jerk.
Yes, that makes sense. I'll have to watch it again.
I remember seeing an interview with Lucas where he said he wanted to
develop a contrast between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan and Luke -- Luke is
naturally strong in the Force, but never really reaches the peak that
the old Jedi routinely used to reach. These guys are powerful Jedi
during an age when the Jedi are at the height of their prowess. I
liked that thinking.
>
>And finally seeing it again did remind me of one of the things I liked
>about the film...the bad guy won. And did it in such a spectacular
>fashion that it didn't really matter what the good guys did at the end;
>win or lose, he had screwed them but good. And they were so oblivious
>to getting screwed that they invited him to the party.
>
>Like Lucas or not, that was a good piece of plotting.
Yes, it was. If it weren't for Jar-Jar friggin' Binks and the kid, it
might have been a watchable movie. And I still don't understand the
content of the trade dispute.
--
Pete McCutchen
Ross TenEyck
>I remember seeing an interview with Lucas where he said he wanted to
>develop a contrast between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan and Luke -- Luke is
>naturally strong in the Force, but never really reaches the peak that
>the old Jedi routinely used to reach. These guys are powerful Jedi
>during an age when the Jedi are at the height of their prowess. I
>liked that thinking.
I think in the quasi-canonical novels, Luke does spend a fair
amount of time both trying to develop his Jedi skills, and
desparately seeking out anyone left from the old Republic
who might be able to give him some pointers.
>Yes, it was. If it weren't for Jar-Jar friggin' Binks and the kid, it
>might have been a watchable movie. And I still don't understand the
>content of the trade dispute.
As I see it, Palpatine was orchestrating both sides of that dispute
to provoke a shooting war. It probably started out as something
pretty minor, tariffs or some such, that in the normal course of
events would have resulted in nothing more than some heated
rhetoric and perhaps some retaliatory import restrictions. But
Palpatine needed someone to commit atrocities against Naboo, so
he worked with what he had.
James Bodi
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Yes, it was. If it weren't for Jar-Jar friggin' Binks and the kid, it
>might have been a watchable movie. And I still don't understand the
>content of the trade dispute.
---I don't think Lucas did either. It's frustrating too, because a historical
model was easy enough to come up with. The Republic is supposed to be sorta
like Rome, right? Never mind trade and tariffs: cast the 'Trade Federation'
as publicani, the tax farmers the Republic uses to squeeze the outer systems
that don't have a lot of full citizens. That's why they use those dopey
robots - they're just jumped up tax collectors doing it on the cheap. The
movie going public is hooked: the right hates taxes, the left hates privatised
anything, and the American public can see this as a replay of the Boston
Tea Party if you give the Trade guys plummy British accents and the robots
Hessian ones. It's easier to understand too.
H'm. And on Tatooine, the Governor decrees that all the world be taxed,
cut to Anakin and his mom being hauled to Mos Eisley for the headcount...
The Jedi could have had a constitutional role similar to the Tribunes of
the People too, with perhaps some of the roles of one of the priestly colleges.
If Lucas had had an intern give him a fourth grade level precis of the last
hundred years of the Roman republic, the movie background could have made
a lot more sense.
>--
>
>Pete McCutchen
Terry Austin
"Keith Morrison" <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote in message
news:3BDF9863...@polarnet.ca...
> Lorne Beaton wrote:
>
> > >Actually, when I saw and resaw The Phantom Menace, I was never sure if
> > >we were supposed to think that Qui Gon knew Padme was Amidala or if he
> > >was caught by surprise. I'm still not sure.
> >
> > Lucas makes it clear in the DVD commentary that Qui-Gon Jinn knew all
> > along that Padme was the Queen.
>
> As well as Obi-Wan.
>
Terry Austin
Richard Harter
wrote:
>Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>I remember seeing an interview with Lucas where he said he wanted to
>>develop a contrast between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan and Luke -- Luke is
>>naturally strong in the Force, but never really reaches the peak that
>>the old Jedi routinely used to reach. These guys are powerful Jedi
>>during an age when the Jedi are at the height of their prowess. I
>>liked that thinking.
>
>I think in the quasi-canonical novels, Luke does spend a fair
>amount of time both trying to develop his Jedi skills, and
>desparately seeking out anyone left from the old Republic
>who might be able to give him some pointers.
>
>>Yes, it was. If it weren't for Jar-Jar friggin' Binks and the kid, it
>>might have been a watchable movie. And I still don't understand the
>>content of the trade dispute.
>
>As I see it, Palpatine was orchestrating both sides of that dispute
>to provoke a shooting war. It probably started out as something
>pretty minor, tariffs or some such, that in the normal course of
>events would have resulted in nothing more than some heated
>rhetoric and perhaps some retaliatory import restrictions. But
>Palpatine needed someone to commit atrocities against Naboo, so
>he worked with what he had.
Good point. The thing that I don't see is what Palpatine's original
plan was. Clearly his objective was to bring down the current supreme
chancellor and replace him. [Why am I reminded of "House of Cards"?]
Amidala's escape was a fortuitous event which he exploited
brilliantly. Suppose, however, the original plan had gone forward and
the treaty had been signed. He was quite insistent upon getting the
treaty signed. How would have this helped him? What was his plan for
using the successful occupation of Naboo in his campaign to achieve
the office of Supreme Chancellor? Or was that his original objective?
Another question is: why did he expose the continuing existence of the
Sith? Perhaps he had great confidence in Darth Maul's ability to go
to Tatooine, kill the two Jedi, and retrieve Amidala. Nonetheless at
this stage of his career he is very crafty and allows for
contingencies, unlike his actions as Emperor where he is overburdened
with the arrogance of power and long success. The great advantage of
the Sith is that they are hidden. In effect he sacrificed Darth Maul
as a pawn in his greater plan.
Again, suppose that the attempt to recapture Naboo had failed and that
the trade federation had won. This was by far the more likely outcome
which was averted pretty much accidently. It is the outcome that he
must have expected and planned for.
A possible explanation that occurs to me is that Palpatine isn't
operating off of plans; rather he operating on the basis of foresight.
In the original star wars movies he is portrayed as having foresight
far superior to that of Yoda and the other Jedi. The Jedi cannot see
the future through the dark side but he can. I speculate that his
foresight illuminates situations that can be turned to his advantage
without telling him exactly how he is to exploit them. In consequence
he wings it, moving towards goals that he knows to his benefit without
knowing exactly how he is to achieve them. On this reading he
"knows" that creating a crisis in Naboo is the right [wrong?] thing to
do. On that basis he constructs a plan that isn't sound; however he
succeeds because the force is with him.
Ross TenEyck
>Good point. The thing that I don't see is what Palpatine's original
>plan was. Clearly his objective was to bring down the current supreme
>chancellor and replace him. [Why am I reminded of "House of Cards"?]
>Amidala's escape was a fortuitous event which he exploited
>brilliantly. Suppose, however, the original plan had gone forward and
>the treaty had been signed. He was quite insistent upon getting the
>treaty signed. How would have this helped him? What was his plan for
>using the successful occupation of Naboo in his campaign to achieve
>the office of Supreme Chancellor? Or was that his original objective?
>Another question is: why did he expose the continuing existence of the
>Sith? Perhaps he had great confidence in Darth Maul's ability to go
>to Tatooine, kill the two Jedi, and retrieve Amidala. Nonetheless at
>this stage of his career he is very crafty and allows for
>contingencies, unlike his actions as Emperor where he is overburdened
>with the arrogance of power and long success. The great advantage of
>the Sith is that they are hidden. In effect he sacrificed Darth Maul
>as a pawn in his greater plan.
>Again, suppose that the attempt to recapture Naboo had failed and that
>the trade federation had won. This was by far the more likely outcome
>which was averted pretty much accidently. It is the outcome that he
>must have expected and planned for.
Foolish mortal... you have given me the perfect opportunity to
post my Excessively Long Analysis of Palpatine's Plan!
Here's how I see it:
Imagine a young Palpatine, on his homeworld (apparently) Naboo. He's
ambitious, unscrupulous, and a Lord of the Sith. His primary goal is
power. Where can power be found?
Not on Naboo; he could probably get himself elected King of Naboo fairly
easily, but in the end, so what? He gets to rule over a bunch of hicks
and frogs. No, the venue of power is in the capital of the Republic;
so the first step is to get himself elected Senator from Naboo. We can
presume he has little difficulty accomplishing this.
But the Senate is large, and Palpatine is just one voice in it -- and
a voice representing a small backwoods planet, at that. The next step
is to become Supreme Chancellor. Even that position, however, is
surrounded by enough checks and balances that it wouldn't satisfy
Palpatine... but if there were some sort of ongoing emergency or crisis,
then the Chancellor could declare martial law, or whatever their equivalent
is, and get special emergency powers. After that, the emergency simply
has to last long enough for the Chancellor to secure his position, and
then he has it made; he can be, in fact and even in name, the Emperor
of the galaxy.
But what kind of emergency? An external enemy is a time-tested and
reliable one; unfortunately, there don't happen to be any plausible
enemies of the Republic handy.
Well, when you don't have what you need, you make it. The Trade Federation
is large, powerful, and greedy; they can be forced into becoming an enemy
of the Republic... much to their surprise, of course.
So Palpatine, in his persona as Darth Sidious, makes a deal with the Trade
Feds -- we don't know exactly what, but it's probably along the lines of,
"Do exactly what I say, and I will make you wealthy beyond the dreams of
avarice." Probably he demonstrates his usefulness -- mind control goes a
long way towards successful negotiations -- so they trust him; even more
probably, he convinces them to do some shady deals, so he has a hold on
them.
Meanwhile, he arranges for the election of Amidala as Queen of Naboo.
(Or, maybe, he just gets lucky.) He needs someone who is charismatic
and telegenic, as well as stubborn. A beautiful, courageous, idealistic
teenage girl fits the bill perfectly.
Next, he persuades the Trade Federation that they can get exceptionally
favorable terms from the small planet of Naboo -- the ruler is a young
human girl, easily cowed, easily bullied. All they have to do is bluster
and threaten a little more than they normally would, and she will collapse
in tears and give them whatever they want.
Palpatine knows, of course, that Amidala will do no such thing; in fact,
nothing could be better designed to put her back up and make her dig in
her heels. She will haughtily reject the Trade Federation's demand, and
all but dare them to do their worst.
At this point, he has to play a delicate game of reverse brinksmanship.
As Darth Sidious, he has to keep assuring the Trade Federation that the
Queen is on the verge of giving in -- if they threaten a blockade, she'll
capitulate. If they bring up warships, she'll capitulate. If they impose
the blockade, she'll capitulate. After all, she's just a child... and
the Senate is weak and distracted, it will turn a blind eye.
As Palpatine, he has to keep the Queen defiant -- a much easier task.
He can assure her that the Senate will never let things go *too* far,
and in fact is on the verge of acting; all she has to do is hold out just
a little longer. And besides, the Trade Federation would never dare to
actually invade.
At some point, he will have to kick the Trade Federation into doing just
that. Once they do invade, they've crossed the Rubicon -- they can't
pretend to themselves any more that the Senate will ignore them. Unless,
of course, they can get the Queen to sign a treaty that will lend a veneer
of legitimacy to the situation. Once they invade, they will *have* to
get her to sign that treaty, or find themselves in armed conflict with the
Republic. They'll be terrified.
And the Queen, of course, will sooner die than sign that treaty. Darth
Sidious will only need to push a little now; the Trade Federation, in
their panic, can be counted on to commit ever-escalating atrocities to
convince the Queen to sign. EVentually, Sidious will see to it that they
put the Queen herself to torture. A little too far -- easy to arrange --
and the Queen dies, a martyr for Naboo.
And Palpatine, of course, will have secretly taped the whole thing. Now
he can get the attention of the Senate -- look what they allowed to happen,
while they bickered in session! Young, courageous, beautiful Amidala will
be the ideal victim, guaranteed to rouse the passion of the populace. They
will demand that something be done, and they will cry out for the heads of
the politicians who sat idle while this was going on.
All Palpatine needs is a convenient tool in the Senate -- he doubtless has
several -- to propose a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valoran, and
another to nominate him, in his righteous sorrow and anger, as the new
Chancellor.
Once elected, he will have no trouble getting emergency powers to fight
the war against the Trade Federation. At that point, his only challenge
will be to keep the war from ending too quickly. The Trade Federation will
be horrified at the position they find themselves in; but he can rush them
into the first few battles and arrange for them to win. That will shock
the Republic and bolster his case for more powers, and he can also use
those victories to convince the Trade Federation that they can actually
*win* the war -- the Republic is clearly, now, just a hollow shell; with
a strong push, they can knock it over and loot the entire galaxy. Once
both sides are committed, he can drag the war out as long as necessary.
The path to the Imperial throne is straightforward after that.
The fly in this ointment is the Jedi. Decadent and inward-turned they
may have become, but Palpatine knows -- none better -- just how strong
the Jedi really are, and how quickly they could destroy him, if they
ever suspected what he was doing. It is inevitable that, at some point,
the Jedi will become suspicious. When that happens, he must distract
them from the truth with a plausible lie; something that will keep them
occupied until he's ready to move against them.
The best lie, when you can arrange it, is the truth. What could be
better guaranteed to galvanize the Jedi than the discovery that their
ancient enemy, the Sith, are still active? So long as the Jedi can be
convinced to look for the Sith in the shadowy corners of the galaxy,
rather than right out in the limelight in the center, they will be far
too busy to take a close look at the new Chancellor.
So Darth Sidious selects an apprentice, and begins training him. He
does not train him to be a Sith Master, and eventually take over after
Palpatine -- if, indeed, any Sith Master ever looks favorably on that
prospect -- but rather as a dedicated Jedi-killing machine. (Note that,
in the movie, Darth Maul was obsessed with fighting the Jedi, regardless
of what his mission was supposed to be at any given moment.)
So, when the Jedi start to become suspicious of what the Trade Federation
is doing, Palpatine will unleash Darth Maul on them. With luck, Maul will
kill several of them before they get him, but that isn't necessary --
all he really has to do is attack the Jedi and die. Since Maul will be
unmistakably a Sith, the Jedi will immediately devote all their resources
to finding the other one -- and Palpatine will have laid several false
trails; enough to keep them sniffing around far, far away from Coruscant
for a long time. Long enough for him to secure his power base, and
whittle away at their numbers. By the time they track down the real
Sith Master, it will be far too late.
Call this Plan A.
In the event, things go according to plan until Chancellor Valoran sends
two Jedi to talk to the Trade Federation. Palpatine knew that the Jedi
would start nosing around at some point, but he probably didn't know
exactly when -- we can speculate that it's harder to foresee what a Force-
strong person will do than a normal person.
In any case, when he finds out that the Jedi are on the ship with his
Trade Fed stooges, the absolute first priority is that he must not allow
the Jedi to meet with them -- the Jedi will simply bully them into abandoning
their blockade, and all of Palpatine's work will be for naught.
However, he can also use this as the trigger he needs to push the Trade
Fed guys over the edge, into an actual invasion. In the heat of the
moment, he convinces them to attempt the kill the Jedi. He knows they're
hardly likely to succeed, but he doesn't care; once they've made that
attempt, the Trade Federation is locked into conflict with the Republic.
They'll have to invade and get the Queen to capitulate, before more Jedi
come.
There are some hazards: the Jedi might simply slaughter all of Palpatine's
puppets. However, it's a reasonable risk -- even the Jedi probably can't
take on all of the Trade Federation's muscle on their HQ ship; and in any
case, they'll probably be reluctant to kill indiscriminately until they
have a better idea what's going on. Odds are, they'll escape.
Once that happens, there are several ways things could go. The Jedi
might steal a ship and head directly back to Coruscant to report. In
that case, he'll have to make sure that Darth Maul intercepts them
before they get back, or at the very least as soon as possible after
wards. That could be problematic, though; he would prefer the encounter
with Maul to take place almost anywhere else other than the capital.
Still, he can make shift if that happens.
More likely, the Jedi will hang around Naboo, at least for a while.
They might decide to organize a resistance against the invasion.
In that case, he can again send Maul after them; the challenge in
that case will be to avoid having them make the connection between
the Sith and the Trade Federation -- Palpatine doesn't want them to
look too closely into that link.
However, no matter what the Jedi do, he's prepared to execute some
variation of his original plan.
As it happens, the Jedi escape to the planet, and then grab the Queen
and take off for Coruscant.
This presents Palpatine with something of a dilemma. On the one hand,
the Jedi's rescue of the Queen suggests an intriguing alternative plan:
if the Queen comes to Coruscant, then *she* can make the appeal to the
Senate; the atrocities will have lost some of their visceral edge, but
the actual presence of the Queen in the Senate chamber will compensate
for that. And by having the Queen herself make the motion for a vote of
no confidence in Chancellor Valoran, he gains many bonus Evil Overlord
points, for making the Good Guys bring about their own destruction.
On the other hand, he *must* send Darth Maul against the Jedi as soon
as possible, before they have a chance to wonder too much about what
exactly was in the Trade Federations' heads to make them act so apparently
senselessly. And Darth Maul is good enough that he might well "succeed"
in his mission, kill the Jedi, and take the Queen back to Naboo.
However, even if this happens, it won't be a great loss; he can simply
revert to Plan A, and make sure that when the rest of the Jedi come
around trying to find out who or what offed two of their members, there
are enough clues to point them in the right wrong direction.
It falls out as well as he could have hoped, though: the Jedi succeed
in bringing Amidala to Coruscant, but their minds are filled with the
Sith, and with the unexpected bonus of this strange child who has so
much potential, for one side or the other. Amidala is as appealing
as he knew she would be, if not quite in the fashion he'd originally
planned, and he is elected Chancellor.
So, in the end, Palpatine wins a strong but qualified victory. He isn't
quite as far along as he'd hoped to be at this point: the Trade Federation
has been unexpectedly defeated and so nullified at the great external
threat, and Darth Maul only managed to kill one of the Jedi before being
sacrificed. However, he has accomplished his primary goals: he is the
Chancellor, the Jedi are thoroughly distracted, and most importantly,
he remains completely unsuspected.
And there's Anakin, so powerful but so fearful and angry. He hadn't
expected Anakin, but the boy will be a very useful pawn. Let the
Jedi take care of his initial training; there are years yet to bring
him over to the Dark Side.
In the meantime, he'll have to go about creating another enemy. Perhaps
in internal one this time... a resistance or rebellion of some kind...
Richard Harter
wrote:
>c...@tiac.net (Richard Harter) writes:
[snip raising the question]
>
>Foolish mortal... you have given me the perfect opportunity to
>post my Excessively Long Analysis of Palpatine's Plan!
>
>Here's how I see it:
[snip analysis]
Oooh, yummy, wow. It all makes sense now, master. Can I reprint this
on my web site? It's quite lovely.
Johnny1A
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >I remember seeing an interview with Lucas where he said he wanted to
> >develop a contrast between Qui-Gon and Obi Wan and Luke -- Luke is
> >naturally strong in the Force, but never really reaches the peak that
> >the old Jedi routinely used to reach. These guys are powerful Jedi
> >during an age when the Jedi are at the height of their prowess. I
> >liked that thinking.
>
> I think in the quasi-canonical novels, Luke does spend a fair
> amount of time both trying to develop his Jedi skills, and
> desparately seeking out anyone left from the old Republic
> who might be able to give him some pointers.
The first set of books by Timothy Zahn (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force
Rising, and The Last Command) were _excellent_, IMHO. After that,
though, the series of novels degenerated rapidly, soon becoming
unreadable. I've only skimmed through the later novels for the most
part, and those that I have read were efforts to get through.
By the time they finally brought Zahn in to fix things (that's what it
looks like, anyway), it was too late. The only way to 'fix' the later
novels would be to retcon them out of existence. The _best_
suggestion for fixing the situation that I ever saw was a humorous
fanfic in which everything after The Last Command turns out to be a
dream Luke has brought on by bad hot chocolate.
Shermanlee
David Allsopp
<ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> writes
>Foolish mortal... you have given me the perfect opportunity to
>post my Excessively Long Analysis of Palpatine's Plan!
[long, fascinating and entirely plausible analysis snipped]
Gee, I bet George Lucas wishes he'd thought of that...
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
Robert Carnegie
You mean, because it's dark?
Actually, that _is_ interesting: the dark side of the Force being
invisible like our own dark matter.
Captain Button
More like the "dark energy" they are now talking about. A term I
just can't use without thinking of it as something that mad scientists
use to charge their doomsday machines...
--
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in
tolerance and free speech," - David Brin
Captain Button - but...@io.com
David Given
ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Ross TenEyck) writes:
[long analysis snipped]
You know, this would make a rather good film.
--
+- David Given --------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | "The only thing to prevent what's past is to put a
| Play: d...@cowlark.com | stop to it before it happens." --- Sir Boyle Roche
+- http://www.cowlark.com -+
Keith Morrison
> This presents Palpatine with something of a dilemma. On the one hand,
> the Jedi's rescue of the Queen suggests an intriguing alternative plan:
> if the Queen comes to Coruscant, then *she* can make the appeal to the
> Senate; the atrocities will have lost some of their visceral edge, but
> the actual presence of the Queen in the Senate chamber will compensate
> for that. And by having the Queen herself make the motion for a vote of
> no confidence in Chancellor Valoran, he gains many bonus Evil Overlord
> points, for making the Good Guys bring about their own destruction.
>
> On the other hand, he *must* send Darth Maul against the Jedi as soon
> as possible, before they have a chance to wonder too much about what
> exactly was in the Trade Federations' heads to make them act so apparently
> senselessly. And Darth Maul is good enough that he might well "succeed"
> in his mission, kill the Jedi, and take the Queen back to Naboo.
There's some other possibilities at this point, though. If the Queen
stays on Coruscant, he gets to play up the sympathy vote (he says so
himself, explicitly). The presence of the Queen (and he, as the
planet's senator) will act as symbols, allowing him to send a military
force. Not too strong a force, as you commented.
If she heads back to Naboo (as he suspects she will, notice how he
doesn't protest *too* much when she announces her decision), he's got
two more good possibilities there. If she fails, he still gets the
sympathy vote as representative of the planet whose queen died/was
captured bravely fighting against invaders. If she succeeds, well
then he's the representative of the plucky little planet that stood
up to the Trade Federation while the Senate dithered on the issue.
Clearly those Naboo people know how to get things done, so wouldn't
it be good to have one of them replace that lame duck Valorum?
As a bonus, undoubtably the Jedi (or Valorum himself) will want some
heavy-duty protection for Amidala when she goes back, and who better
to send than the two Jedi who rescued her in the first place? Now
he can send Darth Maul after them, making it look like Maul might
have been after Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and has nothing to do with the
Trade Federation at all. After all, they don't know why Maul attacked
them on Tatooine, so perhaps he was just trying to finish the job?
--
Keith
Joseph Michael Bay
>In article <9rsvlt$m...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
> ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Ross TenEyck) writes:
>[long analysis snipped]
>You know, this would make a rather good film.
I don't know. It kind of needs a wacky chimp or something.
--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
When encryption is outlawed, fO$t ^@3sVe) %4iG Vx@| /jNGe5x6@^.
J Greely
>I don't know. It kind of needs a wacky chimp or something.
But does he sing?
-j
Rosy with a why
> Either that, or the "Yoda Was On The Dark Side" theory has something
> to it.
You still haven't worked out the truth behind the Force?
http://www.brunching.com/features/feature-lukeside.html
Johnny1A
> quite as far along as he'd hoped to be at this point: the Trade Federation
> has been unexpectedly defeated and so nullified at the great external
> threat, and Darth Maul only managed to kill one of the Jedi before being
> sacrificed. However, he has accomplished his primary goals: he is the
> Chancellor, the Jedi are thoroughly distracted, and most importantly,
> he remains completely unsuspected.
>
> And there's Anakin, so powerful but so fearful and angry. He hadn't
> expected Anakin, but the boy will be a very useful pawn. Let the
> Jedi take care of his initial training; there are years yet to bring
> him over to the Dark Side.
>
> In the meantime, he'll have to go about creating another enemy. Perhaps
> in internal one this time... a resistance or rebellion of some kind...
BRAVO! I've had similar thoughts about a few points, but that is the
best summation I've seen about how things would look from Palpatine's
point of view!
It does raise a couple of questions, though.
1. Where did _Palpatine_ learn the ways of the Force?
2. Just how long has all this been going on? How far back does
Palpatine's treachery reach?
I've had another thought of late: when the Jedi say that there are
always two Sith, a master and an apprentice, are they referring to in
all creation, or just in each 'cell'? Somehow it's hard to see just
two Sith being perceived as the level of threat the Jedi obviously
regard them as.
I would speculate that there might have been times when there were
many Sith, but they don't work as a team, instead, they are always in
pairs, working on their own, since their nature prevents them from
teaming up. The various Sith might not even know about each other.
Does that seem plausible?
One more thought occurs to me: suppose that instead of finding and
training Darth Maul, Sidious _made_ him, by cloning? After all, the
_Clone Wars_ on now on the upcoming agenda, as far as is known...
Shermanlee
Richard Harter
wrote:
>ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Ross TenEyck) wrote in message
>>
>> So, in the end, Palpatine wins a strong but qualified victory. He isn't
>> quite as far along as he'd hoped to be at this point: the Trade Federation
>> has been unexpectedly defeated and so nullified at the great external
>> threat, and Darth Maul only managed to kill one of the Jedi before being
>> sacrificed. However, he has accomplished his primary goals: he is the
>> Chancellor, the Jedi are thoroughly distracted, and most importantly,
>> he remains completely unsuspected.
>>
>> And there's Anakin, so powerful but so fearful and angry. He hadn't
>> expected Anakin, but the boy will be a very useful pawn. Let the
>> Jedi take care of his initial training; there are years yet to bring
>> him over to the Dark Side.
>>
>> In the meantime, he'll have to go about creating another enemy. Perhaps
>> in internal one this time... a resistance or rebellion of some kind...
I've put up a copy on the web,
URL=http://www.tiac.net/users/cri/sidious.html by permission.
>BRAVO! I've had similar thoughts about a few points, but that is the
>best summation I've seen about how things would look from Palpatine's
>point of view!
>
>It does raise a couple of questions, though.
>
>1. Where did _Palpatine_ learn the ways of the Force?
Presumably he once was an apprentice. I suppose the real question is
how do the Sith masters find their successors. According to the
novelization they've been at this for a long time. Both the movies
and the novelizations hint that the Sith have accumulated technology
that is not known to the Jedi.
>
>2. Just how long has all this been going on? How far back does
>Palpatine's treachery reach?
>
>I've had another thought of late: when the Jedi say that there are
>always two Sith, a master and an apprentice, are they referring to in
>all creation, or just in each 'cell'? Somehow it's hard to see just
>two Sith being perceived as the level of threat the Jedi obviously
>regard them as.
>
>I would speculate that there might have been times when there were
>many Sith, but they don't work as a team, instead, they are always in
>pairs, working on their own, since their nature prevents them from
>teaming up. The various Sith might not even know about each other.
>Does that seem plausible?
This is covered in the novelization. The Sith started as a group of
Jedi who decided to study and utilize the dark side. It was torn
apart by internal factionalism and exterminated by the Jedi. However
one survivor set up the master/apprentice system as the only way the
Sith could continue - a group of Sith would inevitably tear itself
apart. It is plausible, though, that going over to the dark side
would have happened from time to time.
>One more thought occurs to me: suppose that instead of finding and
>training Darth Maul, Sidious _made_ him, by cloning? After all, the
>_Clone Wars_ on now on the upcoming agenda, as far as is known...
>
> Shermanlee
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
Ross TenEyck
>BRAVO! I've had similar thoughts about a few points, but that is the
>best summation I've seen about how things would look from Palpatine's
>point of view!
Aw, I'm blushing.
>It does raise a couple of questions, though.
>1. Where did _Palpatine_ learn the ways of the Force?
Presumably from his Sith Master, identity unknown. And almost
certainly now dead. We're not told how a Sith Apprentice usually
becomes a Sith Master, but I think it's safe to assume the procedure
rarely involves a retirement dinner and a gold watch for the outgoing
Master.
>2. Just how long has all this been going on? How far back does
>Palpatine's treachery reach?
No way to tell, really, except that he's clearly been laying the
groundwork for years already. Since he doesn't appear to be all
that old (caveat: we don't really know the normal human lifespan
in the SW universe; except insofar as Obi-Wan appears to have
aged between the two trilogies), he probably started when he was
fairly young.
>One more thought occurs to me: suppose that instead of finding and
>training Darth Maul, Sidious _made_ him, by cloning? After all, the
>_Clone Wars_ on now on the upcoming agenda, as far as is known...
Hmm. Possible, I suppose, but from who or what? If he'd cloned
off himself, one would think Maul would have been human, instead
of whatever race he was supposed to be. (Wasn't there another
person from that species on the Jedi council?)
I guess he might have started with a promising individual and then
done genetic engineering to boost Force-aptitude and whatnot...
I don't think we yet know what Lucas thinks "cloning" means, or
what he's ruled can and can't be done with the process.
Still, barring further evidence, I think Occam's Razor suggests
that he just sought out an appropriate apprentice by normal means.
John Schilling
>Ross TenEyck wrote:
> This presents Palpatine with something of a dilemma. On the one hand,
> the Jedi's rescue of the Queen suggests an intriguing alternative plan:
> if the Queen comes to Coruscant, then *she* can make the appeal to the
> Senate; the atrocities will have lost some of their visceral edge, but
> the actual presence of the Queen in the Senate chamber will compensate
> for that. And by having the Queen herself make the motion for a vote of
> no confidence in Chancellor Valoran, he gains many bonus Evil Overlord
> points, for making the Good Guys bring about their own destruction.
> On the other hand, he *must* send Darth Maul against the Jedi as soon
> as possible, before they have a chance to wonder too much about what
> exactly was in the Trade Federations' heads to make them act so apparently
> senselessly. And Darth Maul is good enough that he might well "succeed"
> in his mission, kill the Jedi, and take the Queen back to Naboo.
Thus waving a bright red flag saying, "Hey, folks, the Sith are back and
up to their necks in the Naboo/Federation dispute". This would indeed
stop the Jedi from wondering why the Federation was behaving so strangely,
but I don't think that revealing the actual truth is a terribly good way
for Palpatine to accomplish that. The Jedi would then be wondering who
the hidden Sith master pulling the strings in that disupute is...
Or perhaps you were expecting Maul to kill the Jedi and nab the Queen in
complete secrecy, but then there's no distraction. Also makes it harder
to use the Queen as a martyr; she more or less has to be disappeared to
keep the Sith hidden.
No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
Ditto the revelation of the Sith. There is logic to keeping that card
utterly hidden for now, also logic in playing it now to distract the
Jedi from the Naboo/Federation situation. But sending Maul out to do
battle in a context obviously connected to the Naboo/Federation conflict,
is pure revelation with no distraction. It focuses the Jedi's attention
exactly where it should be, exactly where Palpatine cannot afford it to
be.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Keith Morrison
> No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
> can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
>
> Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
> sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
> Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
> isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
> But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
> capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
> bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
>
> Ditto the revelation of the Sith. There is logic to keeping that card
> utterly hidden for now, also logic in playing it now to distract the
> Jedi from the Naboo/Federation situation. But sending Maul out to do
> battle in a context obviously connected to the Naboo/Federation conflict,
> is pure revelation with no distraction. It focuses the Jedi's attention
> exactly where it should be, exactly where Palpatine cannot afford it to
> be.
Not really. When Qui-Gon is attacked by Maul on Tatooine, the Queen is
nowhere around. He's assaulted, not her. And when he realizes there's
something wrong (he notices the probe Maul sent out looking for them)
before that, again, there's no one else around (except for Anakin).
As far as the Jedi are concerned, Maul was after *them*. Which, of
course, he was.
His later appearence on Naboo reinforces it. It looks like an assassin
going after the Jedi he missed before, with no evidence there was any
connection with the Trade Federation. He was just seizing an opportunity
that presented itself. The Jedi have no evidence to the contrary.
--
Keith
Julie Pascal
I saw The Phantom Menace once in the theatre. I had the worst
imaginable seat, about three rows back and to the side, it was
awful. I actually didn't sit down and watch it again, not as a whole,
until we got the DVD. And it wasn't bad. Parts were less than
stellar and certain person's acting skills, or lines, or both, were...
unfortunate. But all in all it just wasn't bad at all.
And I was reminded just how little space-opera-ish SF is ever
made into movies. Compared to the other few examples (that are
appropriate for children, or mostly so) it does well enough.
And the bad guy really did win.
--Julie
Keith Morrison
> And I was reminded just how little space-opera-ish SF is ever
> made into movies. Compared to the other few examples (that are
> appropriate for children, or mostly so) it does well enough.
>
> And the bad guy really did win.
You know what kills me, though? On the commentary Lucas talks about
the upcoming films and mentions Palpatine gaining more power but seems
to be going to great pains to not say that Palpatine becomes emperor.
Is there anyone who doesn't already know this?
--
Keith
Julie Pascal
My husband, with no evidence at all and no special reason to
think so as far as I can tell, insists that Palpatine is a clone.
--Julie
Johnny1A
Check back to the source of the thread. The whole discussion started
out with a debate about whether or not Lucas actually intends to have
the Palpatine we see in TPM turn out to be the same Palpatine we saw
in SW, TESB, and ROTJ.
Shermanlee
Keith Morrison
> > You know what kills me, though? On the commentary Lucas talks about
> > the upcoming films and mentions Palpatine gaining more power but seems
> > to be going to great pains to not say that Palpatine becomes emperor.
> >
> > Is there anyone who doesn't already know this?
>
> Check back to the source of the thread. The whole discussion started
> out with a debate about whether or not Lucas actually intends to have
> the Palpatine we see in TPM turn out to be the same Palpatine we saw
> in SW, TESB, and ROTJ.
Well, based on some of the other work Lucas has approved, there isn't
much of a debate. _The Essential Guide to Characters_, for instance,
is quite clear on the issue.
This isn't to say he won't change what's been out there before, since
he has, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason why other than a
"nyah nyah nyah" stunt.
--
Keith
Robert Carnegie
Which Palpatine? _Phantom Menace_ or _Return of the Jedi_? Both?
Incidentally, the authorised comicbook/graphic novel _Dark Empire_
has the ol' Rugose Reactionary resurrecting himself using a series of
clone bodies. (I don't _think_ that's a spoiler; if it is, my bad.)
Jens Kilian
> [...] the American public can see this as a replay of the Boston
> Tea Party if you give the Trade guys plummy British accents and the robots
> Hessian ones.
Hey, robots with Hessian accents; that would be something.
Jens (Hessian in exile ;-)
PS: http://www.jakob.at/steffen/hess.html
http://gutenberg.aol.de/niebergl/datter/datter.htm
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
James Bodi
Jens Kilian <Jens_...@agilent.com> wrote:
>"James Bodi" <jab...@my-deja.com> writes:
>> [...] the American public can see this as a replay of the Boston
>> Tea Party if you give the Trade guys plummy British accents and the robots
>> Hessian ones.
>
>Hey, robots with Hessian accents; that would be something.
>
> Jens (Hessian in exile ;-)
---and the robots could have heads shaped like big metal mitre hats. Unfortunately
'Hessian as eeevil mercenary' is a trope that American movies can't shake:
they even put one, against all logic in the latest - and most appalling -
three musketeers remake.
Johnny1A
Lucas also maintains that Vader was meant to be Luke's father from the
get-go in the story-line, including at the time of _A New Hope_. Yet
many doubt this.
Shermanlee
jere7my tho?rpe
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
*Lucas also maintains that Vader was meant to be Luke's father from the
*get-go in the story-line, including at the time of _A New Hope_. Yet
*many doubt this.
Leaving aside Obi-Wan's shifty-eyed discomfort when talking about
Anakin, how people can doubt this about a character named "Dark Father"
is beyond me....
----j7y
--
*********************************** <*> ***********************************
jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Oh, yeah. Old guys becoming pandas --
c/o kesh...@umich.edu _that's_ the future." Mike Nelson, MST3K
Dan Clore
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> (My private vision is of some Dark Side master coming after Yoda
> while he's having lunch. As Yoda continues eating, apparently
> oblivious to the assassin, his Lightsaber levitates off the couch in
> the background. The Sith and the floating lightsaber have a duel which
> ends in the Sith carved into sushi, all without Yoda even turning
> around to see what's happening.)
This is exactly what I envisioned -- there must have been
some hint of this somewhere. Or probably not -- the
character is defined well enough that this kind of
extrapolation seems natural.
--
Dan Clore
mailto:cl...@columbia-center.org
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
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http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
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http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm
News for Anarchists & Activists:
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"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608
Keith Morrison
> *Lucas also maintains that Vader was meant to be Luke's father from the
> *get-go in the story-line, including at the time of _A New Hope_. Yet
> *many doubt this.
>
> Leaving aside Obi-Wan's shifty-eyed discomfort when talking about
> Anakin, how people can doubt this about a character named "Dark Father"
> is beyond me....
There's also the point that Lucas, at that point, probably wasn't sure
that there would be any sequels so he couldn't necessarily make a big
deal about dropping hints for things that might never be made. "Star
Wars" had to be a self-contained story, unlike the subsequent films.
--
Keith
John Schilling
>John Schilling wrote:
>> No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
>> can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
>>
>> Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
>> sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
>> Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
>> isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
>> But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
>> capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
>> bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
>>
>> Ditto the revelation of the Sith. There is logic to keeping that card
>> utterly hidden for now, also logic in playing it now to distract the
>> Jedi from the Naboo/Federation situation. But sending Maul out to do
>> battle in a context obviously connected to the Naboo/Federation conflict,
>> is pure revelation with no distraction. It focuses the Jedi's attention
>> exactly where it should be, exactly where Palpatine cannot afford it to
>> be.
>Not really. When Qui-Gon is attacked by Maul on Tatooine, the Queen is
>nowhere around. He's assaulted, not her. And when he realizes there's
>something wrong (he notices the probe Maul sent out looking for them)
>before that, again, there's no one else around
There are a couple dozen of "them" that we see, implicitly many dozen
more that we do not, many of them much more generally important and/or
much easier to find than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. You really believe it
will not occur to them that Maul likely had a specific reason to seek
out those two specifically?
>His later appearence on Naboo reinforces it. It looks like an assassin
>going after the Jedi he missed before, with no evidence there was any
>connection with the Trade Federation.
They *are* the connection. Out of many dozens of possible victims, Maul
targeted the two who were hip-deep in the Trade Federation investigation.
>He was just seizing an opportunity that presented itself.
An opportunity that presented itself while he was, what, sunbathing in
the Mos Eisly district of Tattoine? The string of improbable coincidences
needed for this is absurd, as is the stupidity required to *not* suspect
the truth. If someone trys to kill the agents you have assigned to
case/mission X, they are probably connected to X and it would be a good
idea to figure out what the connection is.
>The Jedi have no evidence to the contrary.
By this logic, Iraq could have won the Gulf War by having a sharpshooter
kill Norman Schwarzkopf in a cafe in Riyadh. There would have been no
evidence linking them to the act - he wasn't actually in the Allied HQ
planning the war effort, so no connection to Desert Storm - and the
United States would have dropped everything to figure out which completely
unrelated third party had suddenly decided to start randomly assassinating
American flag officers.
Chris Byler
wrote:
>Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> writes:
>
>>John Schilling wrote:
>
>>> No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
>>> can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
>>>
>>> Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
>>> sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
>>> Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
>>> isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
>>> But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
>>> capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
>>> bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
Why? If the main goal is to set up the Fed as big bad guys to create
crisis politics in the Republic, how can Amidala affect that? Only by
defeating the Fed, and that wasn't going to happen. And it _wasn't_
going to happen, except for Anakin - the wild card not even a Sith
Lord can foresee. The Naboo fighters' weapons couldn't penetrate the
control ship's shields, and only a Force adept could have flown into a
_hostile_ fighter hangar _during a firefight_ and then hit the exact
right place to blow up the ship from the inside, without even knowing
where that place was.
That's a preposterous coincidence even for a Jedi - and Palpatine knew
exactly how many Jedi were around, and arranged for them to be
otherwise occupied (preferably dead - the less information the Jedi
have about the Sith other than they're still around, the better). At
least the exhaust port in Ep 4 was on the _outside_ of the Death Star!
The plan to capture the Viceroy would have failed if the droids had
still been working. The Gungans would have been massacred - great
video footage for the Republic equivalent of CNN.
>>> Ditto the revelation of the Sith. There is logic to keeping that card
>>> utterly hidden for now, also logic in playing it now to distract the
>>> Jedi from the Naboo/Federation situation. But sending Maul out to do
>>> battle in a context obviously connected to the Naboo/Federation conflict,
>>> is pure revelation with no distraction. It focuses the Jedi's attention
>>> exactly where it should be, exactly where Palpatine cannot afford it to
>>> be.
Why not? Sith involvement in the Naboo/T.F. conflict doesn't equate
to Palpatine being involved - of course the Jedi know Palpatine is
involved. But how would they know or suspect that he was involved on
both sides at once? The T.F. only know him as Sidious; even the Jedi
couldn't get Sidious's real identity out of the Feds because they
don't know it.
Where Palpatine can't afford to have the Jedi looking is Coruscant,
where he is. He has to perpetuate the deception that the Sith are
hiding in the backwaters of the galaxy - places like Tatooine and
Naboo. Sith involvement in the Trade Federation is a useful diversion
- probably the Trade Federation is all over the place, except for
Hutt-controlled planets like Tatooine.
>>Not really. When Qui-Gon is attacked by Maul on Tatooine, the Queen is
>>nowhere around. He's assaulted, not her. And when he realizes there's
>>something wrong (he notices the probe Maul sent out looking for them)
>>before that, again, there's no one else around
>
>There are a couple dozen of "them" that we see, implicitly many dozen
>more that we do not, many of them much more generally important and/or
>much easier to find than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. You really believe it
>will not occur to them that Maul likely had a specific reason to seek
>out those two specifically?
The important, easy to find ones are on Coruscant, and there's a lot
of them. It's also implied that they're much harder targets than a
hothead like Qui-Gon and his half-trained apprentice, who are in the
ass end of nowhere, where even Republic _money_ isn't any good. The
Jedi probably wouldn't even consider it possible that the Sith could
attack Coruscant.
Furthermore, the Jedi know that the Sith hate the Jedi - obsessively.
They're unlikely to consider that the Sith might have another agenda
besides attacking the Jedi, if there's any evidence to support Jedi as
the target - which there was, because a Jedi _was_ the target (or at
least the apparent target). No doubt the Sith were hiding on Tatooine
because the Jedi-influenced Republic doesn't have any power there, and
happened to run across a Jedi, went into a killing frenzy, and then
tracked them down to finish them off - once they left the safety of
Coruscant, where no Sith would dare go.
All perfectly plausible given the Jedi's knowledge about the Sith.
>>His later appearence on Naboo reinforces it. It looks like an assassin
>>going after the Jedi he missed before, with no evidence there was any
>>connection with the Trade Federation.
>
>They *are* the connection. Out of many dozens of possible victims, Maul
>targeted the two who were hip-deep in the Trade Federation investigation.
What dozens of possible victims? The Council, safe on impenetrable
Coruscant? Other Jedi somewhere in the galaxy? He already _found_
two of them, and found them in a place where he could safely go after
them without the Republic interfering. Why give up the trail before
the targets are dead?
>>He was just seizing an opportunity that presented itself.
>
>An opportunity that presented itself while he was, what, sunbathing in
>the Mos Eisly district of Tattoine?
Hiding from the Jedi-influenced Republic. Tatooine is one of the few
places where Republic law doesn't extend - even their money's no good.
>The string of improbable coincidences
>needed for this is absurd, as is the stupidity required to *not* suspect
>the truth. If someone trys to kill the agents you have assigned to
>case/mission X, they are probably connected to X and it would be a good
>idea to figure out what the connection is.
Maybe - unless they're your ancient enemies who want to kill _all_
Jedi, anywhere, anytime, and don't need any more reason than that.
Which is exactly what the Sith _are_.
>>The Jedi have no evidence to the contrary.
>
>By this logic, Iraq could have won the Gulf War by having a sharpshooter
>kill Norman Schwarzkopf in a cafe in Riyadh. There would have been no
>evidence linking them to the act - he wasn't actually in the Allied HQ
>planning the war effort, so no connection to Desert Storm - and the
>United States would have dropped everything to figure out which completely
>unrelated third party had suddenly decided to start randomly assassinating
>American flag officers.
Anyone else who has a grudge against American flag officers - or
Schwarzkopf personally - would have to be considered. And if you
found someone who *did* have a grudge against Schwarzkopf personally -
say he'd been sending death threats to him for years, would you still
conclude that his killing was related to the war rather than the
personal grudge?
--
Chris Byler cby...@vt.edu
Kubera: "It occurred to me that Sam would be the number one suspect,
except for the fact that he was dead."
Sam: "I had assumed that to be sufficient defense against detection."
-- Roger Zelazny, _Lord of Light_
Chris Byler
<tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>
>"Keith Morrison" <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote in message
>news:3BDF9863...@polarnet.ca...
>> Lorne Beaton wrote:
>>
>> > >Actually, when I saw and resaw The Phantom Menace, I was never sure if
>> > >we were supposed to think that Qui Gon knew Padme was Amidala or if he
>> > >was caught by surprise. I'm still not sure.
>> >
>> > Lucas makes it clear in the DVD commentary that Qui-Gon Jinn knew all
>> > along that Padme was the Queen.
He makes it pretty clear in the movie, too - if you rewatch it after
_you_ know. Lines like "The Queen trusts my judgement, _young
handmaid_, you should too" (slight emphasis in original). He's even
reminding her to keep her cover!
>> As well as Obi-Wan.
I don't know about Obi-Wan - but at that point, it doesn't really
matter what he knew or didn't know, as he was mostly just following
Qui-Gon's lead and occasionally tossing in a sardonic comment about
pathetic lifeforms.
Michael Schilling
news:ogtutt0n0dsdliihc...@4ax.com...
> Yes, it was. If it weren't for Jar-Jar friggin' Binks and the kid, it
> might have been a watchable movie. And I still don't understand the
> content of the trade dispute.
Le's not foget the utter lameness of the bad guys's names. "What should we
call them? One is a double-agent, really insidious, and the other is just a
mauler..."
Joseph Major
:
: On 8 Nov 2001 14:22:58 -0800, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
: wrote:
:>
:>By this logic, Iraq could have won the Gulf War by having a sharpshooter
:>kill Norman Schwarzkopf in a cafe in Riyadh. There would have been no
:>evidence linking them to the act - he wasn't actually in the Allied HQ
:>planning the war effort, so no connection to Desert Storm - and the
:>United States would have dropped everything to figure out which completely
:>unrelated third party had suddenly decided to start randomly assassinating
:>American flag officers.
:
: Anyone else who has a grudge against American flag officers - or
: Schwarzkopf personally - would have to be considered. And if you
: found someone who *did* have a grudge against Schwarzkopf personally -
: say he'd been sending death threats to him for years, would you still
: conclude that his killing was related to the war rather than the
: personal grudge?
Or was a Lindbergh kidnapping buff/nut?
Joseph T Major
--
Mark Reichert
news:3beb66b5...@news.vt.edu...
> He makes it pretty clear in the movie, too - if you rewatch it after
> _you_ know.
Does one get points for picking this all up in the first viewing? I knew
Padme was the Queen and I knew Qui Gon knew. It wasn't all that subtle.
Paul David John Andinach
Mm. I *didn't* get it on the first viewing -- but I kicked myself
really hard when it was revealed, because I *should* have got it.
Paul
--
The Pink Pedanther
John Schilling
>On 8 Nov 2001 14:22:58 -0800, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
>wrote:
>>Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> writes:
>>>John Schilling wrote:
>>>> No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
>>>> can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
>>>> Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
>>>> sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
>>>> Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
>>>> isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
>>>> But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
>>>> capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
>>>> bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
>Why? If the main goal is to set up the Fed as big bad guys to create
>crisis politics in the Republic, how can Amidala affect that? Only by
>defeating the Fed, and that wasn't going to happen. And it _wasn't_
>going to happen, except for Anakin - the wild card not even a Sith
>Lord can foresee. The Naboo fighters' weapons couldn't penetrate the
>control ship's shields, and only a Force adept could have flown into a
>_hostile_ fighter hangar _during a firefight_ and then hit the exact
>right place to blow up the ship from the inside, without even knowing
>where that place was.
[...]
>The plan to capture the Viceroy would have failed if the droids had
>still been working. The Gungans would have been massacred - great
>video footage for the Republic equivalent of CNN.
You're talking about the ultimate repulsion of the Federation invasion
of Naboo, which is ultimately irrelevant. By the time we have Anakin
off Naboo blowing up Federation starships, Palpatine *has already won*.
The Federation has *served* its purpose as the Big Bad Guys, and the
real bad guy has been elected Emperor of the Galaxy, The End. The
entire second half of the movie was irrelevant light entertainment
for the good guys, so as they wouldn't notice their defeat.
But in order for Palpatine to win that victory, Amidala had to be on
Coruscant, speaking in front of the Senate, not back on in the boonies
on Naboo. Ok, granted there are plans that might work for Palpatine
based on Spunky Rebel Heroine Amidala or Tragic Martyr Amidala on
Naboo, and maybe one of those plans was his original plan A.
But Padme dying anonymously on Tattoine, that leaves Palpatine with
nothing. Ditto Amidala and company vanishing in interstellar space
on the trip back to Naboo, or her arriving there having inadvertently
learned too much about the Sith connection such that she has to be
disappeared. Palpatine needs, or at least very strongly benefits from,
her combination of charisma and legitimacy on his side, and those assets
work best for him on Coruscant. Once she has plausibly escaped from
Naboo, it is counterproductive for him to hinder her journey to the
site of the real action.
Pete McCutchen
And what's odd about that is that in the first trilogy, Lucas was
absolutely brilliant in naming his characters.
--
Pete McCutchen
Sea Wasp
According to several sources, much of the brilliance of the earlier
films came from his coauthor (his wife, I believe). She is not
involved in these later films.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
William December Starr
"James Bodi" <jab...@my-deja.com> said:
>>> [...] the American public can see this as a replay of the Boston
>>> Tea Party if you give the Trade guys plummy British accents and
>>> the robots Hessian ones.
>>
>> Hey, robots with Hessian accents; that would be something.
>
> ---and the robots could have heads shaped like big metal mitre hats.
> Unfortunately 'Hessian as eeevil mercenary' is a trope that American
> movies can't shake: they even put one, against all logic in the
> latest - and most appalling - three musketeers remake.
I'm just wondering one thing about that movie, which I haven't seen:
yes, it looked horrible even just from the trailers (and if a studio
can't put together an attractive _trailer_, what hope is there for the
movie?) and yes, it got awful reviews across the board, but... but
there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
it before.
So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
ages ago?)
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
James Bodi
---It sucked. The dangling fencers didn't even look that good, and the whole
idea that anyone would be dumb enough to dangle off of a 100 foot tower,
sword in hand, instead of simply cutting the rope the hero was using to climb
up is so stooopid words fail me. Almost. My sense of disbelief was not
suspended; in fact it was on active duty throughout the whole cinematic abortion.
The acting sucked. The story made no sense. D'Artagnan had a stage coach
that never left his side, with a CANNON hidden in the front.
J.B. Moreno
-snip-
> So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
> famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
> ages ago?)
I don't know about famous, but I know I've seen it done before -- but I
don't have any titles to go along with that.
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
John Schilling
>In article <3be6...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>,
>"James Bodi" <jab...@my-deja.com> said:
>>>> [...] the American public can see this as a replay of the Boston
>>>> Tea Party if you give the Trade guys plummy British accents and
>>>> the robots Hessian ones.
>>> Hey, robots with Hessian accents; that would be something.
>> ---and the robots could have heads shaped like big metal mitre hats.
>> Unfortunately 'Hessian as eeevil mercenary' is a trope that American
>> movies can't shake: they even put one, against all logic in the
>> latest - and most appalling - three musketeers remake.
>I'm just wondering one thing about that movie, which I haven't seen:
>yes, it looked horrible even just from the trailers (and if a studio
>can't put together an attractive _trailer_, what hope is there for the
>movie?) and yes, it got awful reviews across the board, but... but
>there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
>absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
>ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
>wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
>in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
>the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
>it before.
My general rule for such is tha if a movie's advertisements prominently
name the stunt/fight choreographer or FX team, or a director primarily
known for such, that movie will consist almost entirely of spectacular
but ridiculously over-the-top fights between people we don't care about
over an issue we don't even believe they care about.
I have no words adequate for this specific implementation of that theory,
so I will point to someone else's:
http://www.epinions.com/content_39820299908
Brenda W. Clough
James Bodi wrote:
> >
> >I'm just wondering one thing about that movie, which I haven't seen:
> >yes, it looked horrible even just from the trailers (and if a studio
> >can't put together an attractive _trailer_, what hope is there for the
> >movie?) and yes, it got awful reviews across the board, but... but
> >there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
> >absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
> >ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
> >wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
> >in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
> >the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
> >it before.
> >
> >So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
> >famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
> >ages ago?)
>
> ---It sucked. The dangling fencers didn't even look that good, and the whole
> idea that anyone would be dumb enough to dangle off of a 100 foot tower,
> sword in hand, instead of simply cutting the rope the hero was using to climb
> up is so stooopid words fail me.
Were they not fighting with epees? All point, no cutting edge. Although this is a
dumb thing to take into battle, of course. (The rampant stupidity of charging a
fortified castle with nothing but swords was particularly striking.)
Brenda
--
What do you do with a secret?
Whisper it in a desert at high noon.
Lock it up and bury the key.
Tell the nation on prime-time TV.
Choose a door . . .
Doors of Death and Life
by Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda
Tor Books
ISBN 0-312-87064-7
Lee DeRaud
Starr) wrote:
[snip]
>there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
>absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
>ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
>wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
>in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
>the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
>it before.
>
>So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
>famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
>ages ago?)
Reminded me of bits from 'Iron Monkey' (just re-released - saw it on
video some time back). I suspect similar things are much more common
in the Hong Kong wossname films, which IIRC is where the 'Musketeer'
director (or maybe the fight choreographer) came from.
Lee
Shaad M. Ahmad
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
>famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
>ages ago?)
It's rather similar to some of the scenes from the "Once upon a time
in China" series of movies. ISTR their using a Chinese choreographer;
perhaps it's the same one, or someone quite familiar with the series.
- Shaad
Joseph Michael Bay
>Were they not fighting with epees? All point, no cutting edge. Although this is a
>dumb thing to take into battle, of course. (The rampant stupidity of charging a
>fortified castle with nothing but swords was particularly striking.)
Mmm, rather like King Arthur and the Kiniggits of the Round Table
attacking that French castle ...
--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
When encryption is outlawed, fO$t ^@3sVe) %4iG Vx@| /jNGe5x6@^.
Doug Dawson
: I'm just wondering one thing about that movie, which I haven't seen:
: yes, it looked horrible even just from the trailers (and if a studio
: can't put together an attractive _trailer_, what hope is there for the
: movie?) and yes, it got awful reviews across the board, but... but
: there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
: absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
: ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
: wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
: in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
: the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
: it before.
: So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
: famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
: ages ago?)
Eh, that particular fight seemed particuarly stupid (many of the fights
in the film seemed like they would have been interesting if they'd been
well-lit; this was one of the few where you could see what was going on).
Y'see, while Our Hero was climbing a rope from below, the Bad Guys were
descending from above. Yes, they climbed down past fifty feet of the hero's
rope so they could engage him in swordplay, this despite being a rather
unchivalrous bunch whose castle was under siege.
There was a fun bit with ladders a little later on, but I'm told it's been done
elsewhere.
Matt McIrvin
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> The _concept_ is
> wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
> in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
> the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
> it before.
>
> So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
> famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
> ages ago?)
Dunno, but that fight with the ladders in the warehouse-like space
that showed up in one of the TV ads is straight out of "Once Upon a
Time in China." (I like the announcer's voiceover that appears at that
moment in the ad: "Like nothing you've ever seen before.")
--
Matt McIrvin
Peter Meilinger
: In article <9sumu6$evp$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
: wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
:> So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
:> famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
:> ages ago?)
: Dunno, but that fight with the ladders in the warehouse-like space
: that showed up in one of the TV ads is straight out of "Once Upon a
: Time in China." (I like the announcer's voiceover that appears at that
: moment in the ad: "Like nothing you've ever seen before.")
There was a great fight in a rope factory on ladders, ropes and
big old spools in the Jackie Chan flick Miracles: The Chinese
Godfather. At least, that's the title on the copy I have. I
thought I read somewhere that it has another title. Cute
story, either way.
Pete
Sea Wasp
> There was a great fight in a rope factory on ladders, ropes and
> big old spools in the Jackie Chan flick Miracles: The Chinese
> Godfather.
Any Jackie Chan film has great fights that involve objects that in
anyone else's hands would never even be considered weapons. "You
people are doomed; Jackie has large home appliances." was one comment
in "Rumble in the Bronx", as Jackie proceeded to beat people up using
refrigerators and so on. Then he ended up in the sporting goods, and
they were really screwed. I've seen him use ladders as weapons and a
pair of BENCHES as TONFAS, which boggled my mind completely.
The man could make a spiral-bound notebook into a lethal martial arts
weapon.
Offbreed
> Were they not fighting with epees? All point, no cutting edge.
> Although this is a
> dumb thing to take into battle, of course.
> (The rampant stupidity of charging a
> fortified castle with nothing but swords was particularly striking.)
>
> Brenda
People of that era did carry smaller knives for eating, though.
(tsk, tsk. must have left it stuck in the roast)
Ian McDowell
>Matt McIrvin <mmci...@world.std.com> wrote:
>: In article <9sumu6$evp$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>: wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
>:> So, how was it? (And does anybody know whether I'm overlooking some
>:> famous bit of cinematic choreography that beat this film to the punch
>:> ages ago?)
>
>: Dunno, but that fight with the ladders in the warehouse-like space
>: that showed up in one of the TV ads is straight out of "Once Upon a
>: Time in China." (I like the announcer's voiceover that appears at that
>: moment in the ad: "Like nothing you've ever seen before.")
Xiong XIn-Xin (Hung Yan Yan in Cantonese), who choreographed _The
Musketeer_, doubled Jet Li for most of the climax of _Once Upon A Time In
China_ after Li broke one or both ankles in a fall. He played Priest Kung
in _Once Upon A Time In China 2_ and "officially" joined the series with
the third entry, in which he played the reformed villain Club Foot. More
recently, he choreographed the terrific action scenes in Tsui Hark's _Time
and Tide_, which brought a Jackie Chan level of inventiveness and
atheleticism to street fighting and mad-scrambling-to-stay-alive.
_Xena_ had already borrowed the OUATIC ladder fight twice, although
admittedly that show didn't recreate it with as much verve as _The
Musketeer_.
_The Musketeer_ is a pretty dreadful movie, but the Hong Kong influenced
action scenes aren't the problem. Instead, what kills it is the script
and, particularly, the cast -- this D'Artagnan makes Chris O'Donnell from
the Disney version seem dashing and studly, and Mena Suvari is a poor
replacement for Racquel Welch (who had her finest hour in the classic
Richard Lester version) or even Julie Delphy.
Xiong's choreography doesn't really incorporate that much wushu per se,
but instead uses wire rigs to exagerate acrobatics that, in basic
principal, would have pleased Douglas Fairbanks Sr. If you could somehow
show the real Chevalier D'Artagnan both this version and the Fairbanks one
(or the Gene Kelly one, for that matter), he would find the Fairbanks (and
Kelly) action scenes, which drew heavily on traditions of the American
vaudeville stage, just as odd and alien as these.
>There was a great fight in a rope factory on ladders, ropes and
>big old spools in the Jackie Chan flick Miracles: The Chinese
>Godfather. At least, that's the title on the copy I have. I
>thought I read somewhere that it has another title. Cute
>story, either way.
Generally known as _Miracles_, but also _The Miracle_ and _The Canton
Godfather_. It's a remake of Frank Capra's _Pocketful of Miracles_, set
in Macau in the 30's. It has some of Jackie's most accomplished
direction, with lovely gliding steadycam work and a fab montage in which
Anita Mui, the so-called Madonna of Asia (and a far better actress than
our Madonna could ever hope to be), sings the standard "Rose, Rose, I Love
You."
Ian McDowell
> Any Jackie Chan film has great fights that involve objects that in
>anyone else's hands would never even be considered weapons. "You
>people are doomed; Jackie has large home appliances." was one comment
>in "Rumble in the Bronx", as Jackie proceeded to beat people up using
>refrigerators and so on. Then he ended up in the sporting goods, and
>they were really screwed. I've seen him use ladders as weapons and a
>pair of BENCHES as TONFAS, which boggled my mind completely.
The DVD documentary JACKIE CHAN: MY STUNTS shows how he comes up with
scenes like this. For the fight with the aluminum ladder, he repeatedly
cut and pinched himself until he learned to file down various surfaces and
grease some parts. The documentary makes it clear why his American films
don't have neat stuff like this in them. In Hong Kong, Jackie and his
"stunt boys" will scout a promising location, fill it full of likely
props, and then spend a month improvising various bits of business,
bouncing ideas and each other off each other. In America, everything is
generally storyboarded beforehand with minimal involvement from Jackie
(and less from his "stunt boys," who aren't Union). He's then given a
single day to put together a fight scene.
The documentary shows him getting quite frustrated while working on RUSH
HOUR. It also shows a lame fight scene from his first attempt at breaking
into the American market, the dreadful THE PROTECTOR, then shows how
Jackie reshot this scene (without the hack American director's
involvement) for the Chinese release of the film. In the original
version, he fights Bill "Superfoot" Wallace beside a chain link fence. In
his version, he includes the fence as an integral part of the action,
something the American director wouldn't let him do ("just hit him,
Jackie" was the repeated instruction).
Ian McDowell
M. Ahmad) wrote:
Xiong Xin-Xin/Hun Yan Yan, as I posted elsewhere. He doubled Jet Li in
the ladder sequence of _Once Upon a Time in China_ (copied several times
by _Xena_) after Li broke both ankles. A very inventive choreographer who
could probably make interesting use of Renaissance European martial arts,
just as his recent superior work for Tsui Hark's _Time and Tide_ made good
use of practical street fighting and general scrambling to stay alive.
Unfortunately, the director, the dully unimaginative Peter Hyams
(_Capricorn One_), made Xiong attempt a "greatest hits" recreation of his
Hong Kong work, which Hyams had no idea of how to shoot or edit. Still,
the fight scenes aren't the movie's problem; what sinks it is the script
and the casting.
Several classic Hong Kong films have made good use of European swordplay.
In Jackie Chan's _Wheels on Meals_ (several films beginning with "M" in
their English titles had just bombed, so a fortune teller advised
switching the "Meals" and "Wheels"), Sammo Hung takes on the villainous
Count Mondale (love that name) in a fencing match. Sammo holds two epees
as though they were butterfly swords, and only his acrobatics keep him
from being skewered; Jackie and Yuen Biao have to step in to defeat the
Count, using their swords in European fashion.
In Lau Kar Leung's charming _My Young Auntie_, the Americanized Lau Kar
Yan convinces his traditional (and young and beautiful) "Auntie" to
accompany him to a costume party at the British Embassy. He dresses like
Romeo and she like Madame Pompadour. Three villains dressed (and armed)
as the Musketeers attack. While "Auntie' tears her gown up the side and
fights by kicking and using her fan, Lau defends himself with his rapier,
and quite well. It's a fun film, something like a kung fu _Pygmalion_
with musical numbers from a Cantonese _Girl Crazy_ (Lau plays a 1920's
collegiate type, complete with ukele and racoon coat).
jere7my tho?rpe
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
*And what's odd about that is that in the first trilogy, Lucas was
*absolutely brilliant in naming his characters.
Er...huh? Luke Skywalker? Han Solo? Greedo? They're all cut
from the same mold as Darth Maul and Darth Sidious -- English words
slightly modified. Or not -- "Gee, is Han Solo a loner?" I tend to
think we're just accustomed to them, so "Luke Skywalker" doesn't sound
as stupid now as it properly should.
----j7y
--
*********************************** <*> ***********************************
jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Oh, yeah. Old guys becoming pandas --
c/o kesh...@umich.edu _that's_ the future." Mike Nelson, MST3K
Avram Grumer
"Michael Schilling" <mschi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Le's not foget the utter lameness of the bad guys's names. "What
> should we call them? One is a double-agent, really insidious, and
> the other is just a mauler..."
A bunch of us were sitting around shortly after seeing _The Phantom
Menace_, coming up with new Sith names, along the lines of "Darth
Sidious" and "Darth Vader" ("Darth Maul" doesn't really fit the obvious
pattern.)
Darth Jury
Darth Sect
Darth Sert
Darth Dignant
Darth Competent
Darth Field Fly Rule
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er va ivbyngvba bs gur Qvtvgny Zvyyraavhz
Pbclevtug Npg.
Jens Kilian
> yes, it looked horrible even just from the trailers (and if a studio
> can't put together an attractive _trailer_, what hope is there for the
> movie?) and yes, it got awful reviews across the board, but... but
> there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
> absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
> ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
> wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
> in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
> the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
> it before.
Been done; I think in a movie version of one of Sir Walter Scott's novels.
Bad Guy and Good Guy fighting it out (with battleaxes, IIRC) while swinging
from rope to rope in a belfry.
Let me see... ahh. _The Adventures of Quentin Durward_, 1955, directed
by Richard Thorpe, Robert Taylor playing the Good Guy and Duncan Lamont
as the Bad Guy.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Robert Sneddon
<av...@grumer.org> writes
>
>A bunch of us were sitting around shortly after seeing _The Phantom
>Menace_, coming up with new Sith names, along the lines of "Darth
>Sidious" and "Darth Vader" ("Darth Maul" doesn't really fit the obvious
>pattern.)
The MilPhil masquerade this year had a group with a whole load of
"Darth Maul" jokes - The Muppets "Darth Animaul", Regency "Darth Waltz"
etc. etc. The group putting it on ran them across the stage at a rate of
about five seconds a joke. I think there are pictures in the current
issue of Locus.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Brenda W. Clough
Ian McDowell wrote:
>
> _The Musketeer_ is a pretty dreadful movie, but the Hong Kong influenced
> action scenes aren't the problem. Instead, what kills it is the script
> and, particularly, the cast -- this D'Artagnan makes Chris O'Donnell from
> the Disney version seem dashing and studly, and Mena Suvari is a poor
> replacement for Racquel Welch (who had her finest hour in the classic
> Richard Lester version) or even Julie Delphy.
Agreed -- what a passionless and doughy D'Artagnan that was! The movie is
essentially a costume action flick, with the names of various Dumas characters
pasted on. You should not go to it expecting anything like the book, or even as
good as the Richard Lester movie.
Julie Lim
> A bunch of us were sitting around shortly after seeing _The Phantom
> Menace_, coming up with new Sith names, along the lines of "Darth
> Sidious" and "Darth Vader" ("Darth Maul" doesn't really fit the obvious
> pattern.)
>
> Darth Jury
> Darth Sect
> Darth Sert
> Darth Dignant
> Darth Competent
> Darth Field Fly Rule
On the other hand, "Sidious" looks rather like a portmanteau of "Sid
Vicious", so I was hoping to see, say, his comrade Darth Jotten, his
girlfriend Darth Nangeon, and so on. And then there's the whole
business of bringing back Maul on a little cart with wheels, with
Sidious putting his pinky in his mouth and declaring, "I shall call
him... Mini-Maul."
Though my post-TPM game was coming up with more handmaiden names.
Crafty handmaiden: Macrame'
Tardy handmaiden: Dele'
Shopping handmaiden: Ebe'
Obstreperous handmaiden: Ixne'
And so on.
Yngvar Følling
> > there was one scene in the trailer that looked fascinating and
> > absolutely original: the swordfight among guys who are hanging on
> > ropes halfway down the sheer side of a high tower. The _concept_ is
> > wonderful, what with the pseudo-flight capabilities, the twist factor
> > in the ropes and, above all, the defend-your-rope rule altering all
> > the swordfight dynamics, and I'd never seen or heard of anything like
> > it before.
I haven't seen any of the movies mentioned, but the description reminds
me of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome". Have I got the wrong idea?
Yngvar
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> spake:
> Peter Meilinger wrote:
>> There was a great fight in a rope factory on ladders, ropes and
>> big old spools in the Jackie Chan flick Miracles: The Chinese
>> Godfather.
> Any Jackie Chan film has great fights that involve objects that in
> anyone else's hands would never even be considered weapons. "You
> people are doomed; Jackie has large home appliances." was one comment
_Legend of Drunken Master_ is my personal favorite that way - I
started tracking objects I thought would make likely weapons later, and
basically every one gets used. Of course, the deadliest weapon is the
alcohol used to heat the fires up at the foundry...
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"No one is safe. We will print no letters to the editor. We will give no
space to opposing points of view. They are wrong. The Underground Grammarian
is at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle." -TUG, v1n1
Justin Bacon
>Dunno, but that fight with the ladders in the warehouse-like space
>that showed up in one of the TV ads is straight out of "Once Upon a
>Time in China." (I like the announcer's voiceover that appears at that
>moment in the ad: "Like nothing you've ever seen before.")
I recognized approximately 85% of the fight scenes in MUSKETEER as being
blatantly lifted from Hong Kong films. Which leaves little doubt in my mind
that the other 15% were *also* lifted, and I just didn't happen to recognize
the source.
Lifted badly, I should note. MUSKETEER is a terrible film.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Julie Pascal
"jere7my tho?rpe" <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:keshlema-B020C0...@visonmassif.rs.itd.umich.edu...
> In article <0ns1vtcvhkq6rbn7b...@4ax.com>,
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> *And what's odd about that is that in the first trilogy, Lucas was
> *absolutely brilliant in naming his characters.
>
> Er...huh? Luke Skywalker? Han Solo? Greedo? They're all cut
> from the same mold as Darth Maul and Darth Sidious -- English words
> slightly modified. Or not -- "Gee, is Han Solo a loner?" I tend to
> think we're just accustomed to them, so "Luke Skywalker" doesn't sound
> as stupid now as it properly should.
>
LOL... good point.
I'm convinced that Amedala comes from driving past
a sign every day (or nearly) on the freeway that says
Alameda.
--Julie
Robert Carnegie
> cby...@REMOVE-TO-REPLY.vt.edu (Chris Byler) writes:
>
> >On 8 Nov 2001 14:22:58 -0800, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
> >wrote:
>
> >>Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> writes:
>
> >>>John Schilling wrote:
>
> >>>> No, Maul's presence on Tattoine is the one element of that movie that I
> >>>> can't make sense of no matter how I work Palpatine's plotting.
>
> >>>> Plans based on Amidala being martyred on Naboo, with or without a treaty,
> >>>> sure. Plans for her to escape to Coruscant and nominate Palpatine for
> >>>> Emperor, also good. And that last works either as plan A or plan B; it
> >>>> isn't like the Federation made any *serious* effort to keep her on Naboo.
> >>>> But once she makes it off Naboo, it is clearly plan B time for anyone
> >>>> capable of coming up with plan B at all; I see no advantage to trying to
> >>>> bring her back to Naboo, and much potential for disaster in the attempt.
>
> >Why? If the main goal is to set up the Fed as big bad guys to create
> >crisis politics in the Republic, how can Amidala affect that? Only by
> >defeating the Fed, and that wasn't going to happen. And it _wasn't_
> >going to happen, except for Anakin - the wild card not even a Sith
> >Lord can foresee. The Naboo fighters' weapons couldn't penetrate the
> >control ship's shields, and only a Force adept could have flown into a
> >_hostile_ fighter hangar _during a firefight_ and then hit the exact
> >right place to blow up the ship from the inside, without even knowing
> >where that place was.
>
> [...]
>
> >The plan to capture the Viceroy would have failed if the droids had
> >still been working. The Gungans would have been massacred - great
> >video footage for the Republic equivalent of CNN.
>
>
> You're talking about the ultimate repulsion of the Federation invasion
> of Naboo, which is ultimately irrelevant. By the time we have Anakin
> off Naboo blowing up Federation starships, Palpatine *has already won*.
> The Federation has *served* its purpose as the Big Bad Guys, and the
> real bad guy has been elected Emperor of the Galaxy, The End. The
> entire second half of the movie was irrelevant light entertainment
> for the good guys, so as they wouldn't notice their defeat.
>
> But in order for Palpatine to win that victory, Amidala had to be on
> Coruscant, speaking in front of the Senate, not back on in the boonies
> on Naboo. Ok, granted there are plans that might work for Palpatine
> based on Spunky Rebel Heroine Amidala or Tragic Martyr Amidala on
> Naboo, and maybe one of those plans was his original plan A.
>
> But Padme dying anonymously on Tattoine, that leaves Palpatine with
> nothing. Ditto Amidala and company vanishing in interstellar space
> on the trip back to Naboo, or her arriving there having inadvertently
> learned too much about the Sith connection such that she has to be
> disappeared. Palpatine needs, or at least very strongly benefits from,
> her combination of charisma and legitimacy on his side, and those assets
> work best for him on Coruscant. Once she has plausibly escaped from
> Naboo, it is counterproductive for him to hinder her journey to the
> site of the real action.
She's with the Jedi, though. That's too dangerous for Palpatine;
better to kill them all.
Presumably he's been working the Senate already, protesting his
poor benighted planet being invaded, and the queen missing,
presumed dead. That she isn't dead is surely more of an
inconvenience than a help?
Even _she_ might catch on, too.
Robert Carnegie
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> *And what's odd about that is that in the first trilogy, Lucas was
> *absolutely brilliant in naming his characters.
>
> Er...huh? Luke Skywalker? Han Solo? Greedo? They're all cut
> from the same mold as Darth Maul and Darth Sidious -- English words
> slightly modified. Or not -- "Gee, is Han Solo a loner?"
He is if you don't count his relationship with his inseperable
buddie the Wookiee, which is what stopped me from bringing it
up earlier and might be somewhere I think we don't want to go -
or maybe we do want to. In the novels, of course, Solo marries
this nice girl (set up in the movies too).
> I tend to
> think we're just accustomed to them, so "Luke Skywalker" doesn't sound
> as stupid now as it properly should.
Likewise "Star Trek", IMO.
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
Did she have a brother named 'Marin'?
Lee
Brenda W. Clough
Justin Bacon wrote:
>
>
> Lifted badly, I should note. MUSKETEER is a terrible film.
>
This is sadly true. The sort of film you should catch on video, when the
rental's cheap.
Joe Slater
rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie) wrote:
>He is if you don't count his relationship with his inseperable
>buddie the Wookiee, which is what stopped me from bringing it
>up earlier and might be somewhere I think we don't want to go -
>or maybe we do want to. In the novels, of course, Solo marries
>this nice girl (set up in the movies too).
And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
doesn't prove anything.
jds
--
Joe Slater was but a low-grade paranoiac, whose fantastic notions must
have come from the crude hereditary folk-tales which circulated in even
the most decadent of communities.
_Beyond the Wall of Sleep_ by H P Lovecraft
Christopher M. Jones
> And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
> doesn't prove anything.
Uhoh, you mentioned the holiday special, that means legions of
crack Lucasfilm troops will be taking you into custody for
re-education shortly. Oh crap, now I mentioned it, I gotta
run....
--
Press any key to continue, or any other key to cancel.
Michael Schilling
news:37gcvtonif454av80...@4ax.com...
> And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
> doesn't prove anything.
And that names, I imagine, is short for "chewing tobacco".
Robert Carnegie
> >>"Gee, is Han Solo a loner?"
>
> rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie) wrote:
> >He is if you don't count his relationship with his inseperable
> >buddie the Wookiee, which is what stopped me from bringing it
> >up earlier and might be somewhere I think we don't want to go -
> >or maybe we do want to. In the novels, of course, Solo marries
> >this nice girl (set up in the movies too).
>
> And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
> doesn't prove anything.
How can you tell if a Wookiee has a beard?
Hmm. "The Official rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc home page" is
http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp/
Btw, if the Empire is monitoring this communication, will they
please switch off the mind control ray as it is playing hell with
my spelling. "Inseperable buddie"? Did I really write that?
Phil Fraering,,,
>Joe Slater <joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote in message news:<37gcvtonif454av80...@4ax.com>...
>> >"jere7my tho?rpe" <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote
>> >>"Gee, is Han Solo a loner?"
>>
>> rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie) wrote:
>> >He is if you don't count his relationship with his inseperable
>> >buddie the Wookiee, which is what stopped me from bringing it
>> >up earlier and might be somewhere I think we don't want to go -
>> >or maybe we do want to. In the novels, of course, Solo marries
>> >this nice girl (set up in the movies too).
>>
>> And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
>> doesn't prove anything.
>How can you tell if a Wookiee has a beard?
Now you know why there aren't any Wookies in the Taliban.
--
Phil Fraering
p...@globalreach.net
Kevin J. Maroney
wrote:
>Darth Jury
>Darth Sect
>Darth Sert
>Darth Dignant
>Darth Competent
>Darth Field Fly Rule
Darth Ner Tube
Darth Testine.
were my favorites.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Joel Rosenberg
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:39:01 -0500, Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org>
> wrote:
> >Darth Jury
> >Darth Sect
> >Darth Sert
> >Darth Dignant
> >Darth Competent
> >Darth Field Fly Rule
>
> Darth Ner Tube
> Darth Testine.
My favorite, of course, is the Country Western Sith lord, Darth Brooks.
--
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There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun,
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
-------------------------------------
Robert Carnegie
Yep: handsome Han Solo, and his friend who looks like
a handful of chewing tobacco.
Princess Organa's (adoptive) father's given name is suggestive.
Her own name is potentially _very_ suggestive ;-)
Joseph Michael Bay
>>"jere7my tho?rpe" <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote
>>>"Gee, is Han Solo a loner?"
>rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie) wrote:
>>He is if you don't count his relationship with his inseperable
>>buddie the Wookiee, which is what stopped me from bringing it
>>up earlier and might be somewhere I think we don't want to go -
>>or maybe we do want to. In the novels, of course, Solo marries
>>this nice girl (set up in the movies too).
>And in the holiday special Chewbacca is married, too. Of course, that
>doesn't prove anything.
The Holiday Special is not canon, so there's no reason
to claim that she's really married in the movies.
--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
"Your legs are too short to kickbox with the Buddha" - Thai saying
Charles Frederick Goodin
Joel Rosenberg <jo...@ellegon.com> wrote:
>Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:39:01 -0500, Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org>
>> wrote:
>> >Darth Jury
>> >Darth Sect
>> >Darth Sert
>> >Darth Dignant
>> >Darth Competent
>> >Darth Field Fly Rule
>>
>> Darth Ner Tube
>> Darth Testine.
>
>My favorite, of course, is the Country Western Sith lord, Darth Brooks.
What does "inbrooks" mean?
--
chuk