Canine Behaviors For Dummies
joshua
inhumane. They do nothing more than pinch, getting the attention of the
animal.
Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage. They bruise the
esophagus.
Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same as
electric fencing.
Get it straight people.
+Joshua L Denny
+Shelter Technician, HSGV
+Bozeman, Montana
Tara O.
> I cant seem to understand why people believe prong collars are cruel and
> inhumane. They do nothing more than pinch, getting the attention of the
> animal.
>
> Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage. They bruise the
> esophagus.
>
> Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same as
> electric fencing.
>
> Get it straight people.
Joshua, you have just reopened a can of worms that can quickly cause infestation
here lol
--
Tara O.
alt.tv.gilmore-girls FAQ:
http://www.geocities.com/tara29401/alt.tv.gilmore-girls_faq.htm
Theresa Willis
>I cant seem to understand why people believe prong collars are cruel and
>inhumane. They do nothing more than pinch, getting the attention of the
>animal.
>
>Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage. They bruise the
>esophagus.
>
>Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same as
>electric fencing.
>
>Get it straight people.
Do you have proof for any of these claims? Or are you just trolling
for a response?
--Terri & Harlan (reeled you in, anyhow, 'bot)
Jerry Howe
"joshua" <jos...@ycsi.net> wrote in message
news:9g3uoi$sc7$0...@63.90.193.133...
> I cant seem to understand why people believe prong collars are
> cruel and inhumane.
That's understandable. Can you explain positive thigmotaxis? Start
there, and then you'll be able to figure it out.
> They do nothing more than pinch, getting the attention of the
> animal.
They trigger and override positive thigmotaxis with FEAR. That
causes extreme anxiety which does not dissipate when we take the
collar off, and often results in hyperactivity, excessive barking,
digging, whining, pacing, self mutilation, and aggression and
anxiety related health disorders like digestive and intestinal
disorders and seizures.
> Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage.
Same difference. You're looking for physical damage, I'm NOT.
> They bruise the esophagus.
That's not the risk involved with choking and intimidating dogs to
train them. I'm concerned with temperament and behavior, because
that's what gets dogs DEAD, Josh.
> Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same
> as electric fencing.
No matter. Physical problems are not a concern in the big scheme of
things, they're relatively uncommon.
> Get it straight people.
I got it straight, that's why everyone here is afraid to talk dog
training with me.
> +Joshua L Denny
> +Shelter Technician, HSGV
> +Bozeman, Montana
Nice meeting you. Jerry.
>
>
Jerry Howe
"Tara O." <tara...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9g3vie$6s4uf$1...@ID-92443.news.dfncis.de...
> "joshua" <jos...@ycsi.net> wrote in message
news:9g3uoi$sc7$0...@63.90.193.133...
> > I cant seem to understand why people believe prong collars are
> >cruel and inhumane. They do nothing more than pinch, getting the
> >attention of the animal.
> > Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage. They
> >bruise the esophagus.
> > Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the
> > same as electric fencing.
> > Get it straight people.
> Joshua, you have just reopened a can of worms that can quickly
> cause infestation here lol
No he didn't tara. I don't recall as I've left yet, because we've
still got some Thugs hanging out here... j;~}
Patch
> inhumane. They do nothing more than pinch, getting the attention of the
> animal.
>
deaf ]. Therefore, the pinching prong is obsolete and unecessary IMO. Always
has been in UK, AFAIK.
I do not buy into the "well its not *as* bad as other things" idea.
The belief that its not the handler inflicting anything on the dog because
the dog "corrects" itself is a big red herring IMO. There are much better
ways to deal with getting a dog to walk nicely on the lead without
"pinching", choking, jerking.
> Choke collars, on the other hand, do permanent damage. They bruise the
> esophagus.
>
> Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same as
> electric fencing.
>
> Get it straight people.
Oh, I have got it straight - I dont use prongs or chokers or shock collars.
And I never will.
Patch
Cindy
>Shock collars will eventually destroy nerve endings, much the same as
>electric fencing.
Oh, fer doG's sake... this is NOT true.
--Cindy
roo
dogs are 10 and 12 now.
She has never learnt how to put a choke chain on 'properly', despite having
been shown how.
Luckily for the dogs, she doesn't walk much, and hasn't for most of their
lives. They used to live in the country and didn't need a leash most of the
time. Now I take them out, using my own dogs' leashes (her dogs have
ordinary collars as well.)
IMO choke chains should not be sold. My mama is not the only one who uses
them without knowing how they should be put on - I have seen other examples
among dog walkers. It's bad enough when they are put on the 'right way', and
the dog is still allowed to pull, and very, very bad for the dog if they are
put on the wrong way. Supporters might say they should be sold with
instructions, but you'd have to make sure the instructions were permanently
attached to the product, and even then some people would get it wrong.
Alikat
"joshua" <jos...@ycsi.net> wrote in message
news:9g3uoi$sc7$0...@63.90.193.133...
Karen J. Cravens
<oMfV6.54184$fs6.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
> The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog [ unless its
> deaf ]. Therefore, the pinching prong is obsolete and unecessary IMO.
No, sound distraction *doesn't* always get the dog's attention.
I got a couple of dogs I could point you to (Sophie, Mom's Lhasa, is one
we've discussed) that you absolutely couldn't use sound distraction on.
(Which is not to say that a prong collar is the right solution for her,
either, but when the assertion is disproven, so is the conclusion.)
--
Karen J. Cravens
Sequoia: Female GSD ex-stray parvo-survivor
Sadie: Female Greyhound ex-shelter-dumpee, no racing tattoos
Jerry Howe
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90BE5777...@192.168.0.3...
> "Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> <oMfV6.54184$fs6.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
> > The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog
> > [ unless its deaf ]. Therefore, the pinching prong is obsolete
and
> > unecessary IMO.
> No, sound distraction *doesn't* always get the dog's attention.
Right. Not unless you know HOWE to properly condition it, dogman.
> I got a couple of dogs I could point you to (Sophie, Mom's Lhasa,
is
> one we've discussed) that you absolutely couldn't use sound
> distraction on.
Because you don't know HOWE, dogman.
> (Which is not to say that a prong collar is the right solution for
her,
Because that's only used by dog abusing Thugs, dogman.
> either, but when the assertion is disproven, so is the
conclusion.)
Bye! j;~}
> Karen J. Cravens
David
unfortunatley the choke is winning by a wide margin IMO. Not
withstanding the advise/statements of apparently professional dog
trainers and other experts advocating completly positive training
methods on this group, the average dog owner is using either a choke
collar or a prong collar. Now maybe there are some methods that are
better than this, and maybe most dogs respond better to different
training, but as of today the average good dog owner (by good I mean
non-abusive owner who loves his/her dog, trains, feeds, exercises,
socializes the dog) seems to believe that a choke or a prong is
necessary to help train their dog. [now b/4 I get flamed go to your
local dog park/or observe your average dog walker and you will have to
agree as to the predominace of these collars.]
So in examining prong vs. choke it seems that there is an incorrect
belief that the prong is worse/bad. I don't get this. While the
prong does pinch, it is clear from the dogs behavior (mine and all
that I observe) that it doesn't cause significant discomfort, and the
dog readily figures out how to avoid the pinch. OTOH in using and
observing choke collars even when properly put on (rare) the choke
effect is prominent and clearly scares the dog - wheazing and coughing
is a signal me that all is not ok. Worse the dog apparently can't
figure out how to stop it b/c most dogs I see start to pull harder,
causing an even more pronunced choking effect. The prong doesn't work
that way, it pinches to one level and then locks (far safer and kinder
if you ask me).
So why are chokes so much more popular, I believe b/c the prong
"looks" worse. I think this unfortunate, and I hope the myth dies,
just like the practice of using a newspaper to train a dog seems to
have.
Just my opinion.
silve...@phoenyx.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote in message news:<Xns90BE5777...@192.168.0.3>...
roo
either! My mother uses a choke chain, but she can't walk far and very rarely
takes her dogs out, and then only a very short distance - I take her dogs
out for long walks with my own dogs' leashes. Our local trainer moves people
away from choke chains, should they be misguided enough to try, mainly
because most people who use them seem ignorant of how to use them. . We
mostly use ordinary nylon or leather leashes, a few Haltis, the occasional
harness, but choke chains are no longer seen in these parts, and 'prong'
collars unheard of.
Alikat and Dogs (southern England)
"David" <fall...@xoasis.com> wrote in message
news:6f3d07de.01061...@posting.google.com...
Karen J. Cravens
<54rV6.452823$fs3.73...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>:
>Right. Not unless you know HOWE to properly condition it, dogman.
"Dogman"?
>Because you don't know HOWE, dogman.
Yeah. I've read your stuff, but it doesn't work for her, and you couldn't
come up with any alternates. Maybe if you asked whoever wrote it for you?
David & Janette Sweeney
And the main reason for there proliferation is, the fact that most handler
whom use prongs, are not good handlers, sorry but that's it, strong
confident handlers who think like dogs, who understand the pack and how dogs
work in the wild do not use harsh methods other than voice...Dave
you may flame me now
Patch
quality of life does she have if every single sound she hears causes her
problems ? Her life would be intollerable like that. So what *doesnt* cause
problems to her ? Whichever those are, and there must be some, are what I
would use with her.
Patch
>
Helle Haugenes
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[..]
>The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog [ unless its
>deaf ]. Therefore, the pinching prong is obsolete and unecessary IMO. Always
>has been in UK, AFAIK. [..]
Patch,
When you say voice/sound distraction, what do you mean by that? What
kind of sounds are you using? Are they the same every time for one
dog, or do you vary between different sounds?
Helle
Cindy
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>There must be *some* sounds which Sophie is ok with surely ? If not, what
>quality of life does she have if every single sound she hears causes her
>problems ? Her life would be intollerable like that. So what *doesnt* cause
>problems to her ? Whichever those are, and there must be some, are what I
>would use with her.
How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound distractions?
This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
all.
It's pretty silly for you to insist that sound distractions work on
all dogs. You know, like trying to insist that one method will work
for all?
--Cindy
Patch
[now b/4 I get flamed go to your
> local dog park/or observe your average dog walker and you will have to
> agree as to the predominace of these collars.]
Not a flame, but in UK its mostly flat collars, with harnesses recently
taking a sharp rise in popularity - and no prongs that I am aware of in UK
at all. Chokers are in deep decline due to better training education here.
That is *very* evident in the dogs I see out and about, in all areas that
I`ve lived in within UK. Most trainers here are strongly anti-choker, and
many ban their use in class.
Patch
David & Janette Sweeney
never fail...Dave
"Cindy" <tit...@eris.io.com> wrote in message
news:qMxV6.41641$Uo3.1...@news6.giganews.com...
Leah
wrote:
>The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog
Unless it doesn't.
Voice / sound distraction doesn't work on Madigan. And I don't think she's the
only dog who doesn't respond to it.
>Therefore, the pinching prong is obsolete and unecessary IMO.
Unless it works, when voice / sound distraction doesn't.
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Patch
"Helle Haugenes" <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:99aditkmrir8iap8v...@4ax.com...
Whichever sound each dog responds to, be it voice, or whistle, or finger
clicks, or rattle can, or..............etc
IOW, a dog might respond to one persons voice but not another - different
tones / pitch etc, it might respond to a dog whistle but not a referees
whistle, it certainly can vary - so its just a matter of finding what sound
gets the dogs attention - not in a stressful way, but one which gets the dog
to look for the sound source with interest.
For example, my girl Gremlin - one sound guaranteed to get her attention,
even when she is asleep, is the clasp on my purse :-)
On voice use - and I`ll probably get flamed for this here [ oh well ],
during a discussion with a lass about her dog, she said her dog takes notice
of her trainer but not of herself.
We discussed tone and depth or highness of the voices. She said she has a
weak high voice and the trainer a deeper one [ like a sergeant major I think
she said, confident sounding ], so I suggested she tapes her own voice and
listens back to it, and makes a note of when her dog does take notice and
when he doesn't, and to listen to how her voice sounds each time [ just with
a Dictaphone ] - to see if she can make changes to how she sounds to the
dog. In her case, I don't think she is giving out a "confident air" to her
dog.
Now, that's probably "deeper" and more effort than a lot of people would
bother with, *but*, IMO, its worth consideration.
Patch
ama...@postoffice.swbell.net
big girl and I don't have to *pinch* her.
Amanda and Sophie the AmStaff Princess
Theresa Willis
wrote:
>How about trying a gentle leader instead? Works like a charm on my
>big girl and I don't have to *pinch* her.
Keep in mind some dogs find a gentle leader more upsetting than a
prong collar.
When choosing training tools, always go by the dog's reaction, not the
human's.
--Terri & Harlan
Theresa Willis
<swee...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Cindy, there is a method that will work everytime, without failure, it will
>never fail...Dave
That's a rather silly claim to make.
--Terri & Harlan
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
area its prong vs gentle leader - at least with the gentle leader so far I
don't see people doing stupid things with them - like they do with the
prong - for example tying the dog out on the prong collar.....
Nancy
Sally Hennessey
>>"Patch" d.guipag...@ntlworld.com
>wrote:
>>The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog
>
>Unless it doesn't.
>
>Voice / sound distraction doesn't work on Madigan. And I don't think she's the
>only dog who doesn't respond to it.
No, she's not. My Siberians respond to voice/sound distraction
sometimes, but not while out for a walk. They seem to like to pull
then. Must be that sled dog heritage. I don't want to require them
to heel, because it's a pleasure walk for them. So they wear prong
collars, and generally don't pull.
Voice/sound distraction often doesn't work on sighthounds when they're
in pursuit of something, either. Although I don't have this problem
with mine on walks, because they don't try to chase while on lead.
>Unless it works, when voice / sound distraction doesn't.
Yep. And I can guarantee you that prong collars don't hurt my
Siberians.
Sally Hennessey
Karen DuChateaux
>
> Cindy, there is a method that will work everytime, without failure, it will
> never fail...Dave
So what is this wonder method?
(karibear)
Jerry Howe
"David" <fall...@xoasis.com> wrote in message
news:6f3d07de.01061...@posting.google.com...
> Look around in the real world, the issue IS prong vs. choke and
> unfortunatley the choke is winning by a wide margin IMO.
Almost. That's the problem, but not as you're seeing it. The problem
is the use of any choke or pinch or force or shock.
The amount of hurt or pain is irrelevant. The problem is that ANY
force, fear, or confrontation can cause extreme anxiety which
results in other, seemingly un related behavior problems.
The problem is particularly exacerbated by the pronged choke collar
because of the way it works, triggering postitive thigmotaxis and
overriding it through duress. That makes every experience a tense,
frustrating situation, and the anxiety carries on long after the
collar comes off.
> Not withstanding the advise/statements of apparently professional
> dog trainers and other experts advocating completly positive
> training methods on this group,
Well David, that's because a few of us with upwards of thirty years
of professional experience EACH, have found that non force training
methods work faster and better and without jeaopardizing temperments
and risks of having to KILL dogs who won't knuckle down to force. I
think that's why we've spent most of our careers learning HOWE to
not force dogs, because that's what drives some dogs out of control
and gets them DEAD, like Fritz and Sampson and that little dog in
"interested in hearing."
> the average dog owner
Does what the average dog trainer tells them.
> is using either a choke collar or a prong collar.
Because that's the "EXPERT" advice.
> Now maybe there are some methods that are better than this,
EXACTLY. That's why we've got a few competent trainers who KNOW
about training and handling dogs without forcing or intimidating and
confining them to keep the dog under control.
> and maybe most dogs respond better to different training,
Maybe all dogs respond better to non force, non confrontational
methods, David. Maybe if our trainers here were intelligent enough
to learn that, they'd tell J.Q. Pubic to do the same, and I can go
fishin.
> but as of today the average good dog owner (by good I mean
> non-abusive owner who loves his/her dog, trains, feeds, exercises,
> socializes the dog)
Yes, like most of the folks who write in here looking for help.
Unfortunately, they don't get the kind of information they need
here, because most of our "experts" are lying, dog abusing Thugs who
hurt dogs for a living, because they're not bright enough to outwit
a puppy dog, as evidenced in the threads "interested in hearing," "1
step forward," and "stick train." That's the kind of mentality we're
up against here, David.
> seems to believe that a choke or a prong is necessary to help
train
> their dog.
Because that's what we're told to use by our Thug "experts."
> [now b/4 I get flamed go to your local dog park/or observe your
> average dog walker and you will have to agree as to the
> predominace of these collars.]
Right. And then take a hike over to the shelter or pound, and WONDER
WHY it's overflowing with hyperactive, aggressive, and out of
control dogs... David. That's why me and Marilyn and Patch have been
busing our @$$#$ to teach people HOWE to handle and train their dogs
without forcing and hurting them. But you know what the problem is,
David? The problem is, we've got a whole bunch of "EXPERTS" who
can't train dogs without HURTING them, and they're outta business if
they can't jerk and choke and shock dogs to train them.
Now go look around at our experts, and see if that don't ring true.
> So in examining prong vs. choke it seems that there is an
incorrect
> belief that the prong is worse/bad.
Right. There's no difference, they're both inappropriate for use
around any living being's neck.
> I don't get this.
I know. That's why I've got methods you can easily learn so you WILL
get it. But that requires a little LEARNING, and you'll need to FORG
ET a lot of what you think you already know, and you'll need to
break a lot of long established habits, because they're
counterproductive and problematical.
> While the prong does pinch, it is clear from the dogs behavior
> (mine and all that I observe) that it doesn't cause significant
> discomfort,
That's because you cannot see what is going on physiologically with
your dogs central nervous and parasympathetic nervous system.
> and the dog readily figures out how to avoid the pinch.
That's right, David. That's what causes the anxiety which is dealt
with through anxiety relief mechanisms like obsessive barking,
compulsive chewing, digging, whining, pacing, self mutilation,
digestive and intestinal disorders, seizure activity, and
aggression.
> OTOH in using and observing choke collars even when properly
> put on (rare) the choke effect is prominent and clearly scares the
> dog - wheazing and coughing is a signal me that all is not ok.
Sometimes what we see isn't as important as what we don't see.
> Worse the dog apparently can't figure out how to stop it b/c most
> dogs I see start to pull harder,
That's called positive thigmotaxis.
> causing an even more pronunced choking effect.
Right. The dog cannot think and follow commands when there is
pressure on his throat.
> The prong doesn't work that way,
RIGHT.
> it pinches to one level and then
OVERRIDES POSITIVE THIGMOTAXIS THROUGH EXTREME FEAR.
> locks
It locks dozens of pinching spikes into the dog's throat. Kind of
like when I grab a man by the throat, their eyes bulge out and they
get blue, and they never want to meet me again. That's in effect,
what you're doing to your dog. Choking a man is my favorite move,
because it's extremely effective if done properly.
> (far safer and kinder if you ask me).
Well, if given the option between getting stuck in the throat with a
knife, or getting his running lights blown out by a heater, I'd say
three or four minutes of proper choking is the preferable
alternative, wouldn't you agree?
> So why are chokes so much more popular,
Well, for me, I just told you. But that's only for men, I woulnd't
ever do anyting offensive to a dog, because they're only dumb
animals,
> I believe b/c the prong "looks" worse.
That's because it is. Just because you don't see the physiological
effects, doesn't make it any more pleasant. Just think of me
breaking all my finger nails in your throat every time you go to put
your pronged choke collar on your best friend...
> I think this unfortunate,
Likewise. I wouldn't expect the men I've choked to want to ever
cross my pah again. Why would you expect your dog to want to be with
you, after doing just exactly that to him?
> and I hope the myth dies, just like the practice of using a
> newspaper to train a dog seems to have.
Yeah. Our koehler book tells us the old fashioned hitting with the
newspaper is not effective. In order to give a proper correction you
need a heavy man's leather belt or Hickory switch.
> Just my opinion.
That's in the book. The rest is not just my opinion, the preceeding
has been well accepted by the best in the business. The Thugs who
are opposed to not forcing and hurting dogs are worried about their
careers and reputations, and they'll do and say anything to supress
this information.
That's why they congregate here. Most of our rpdb regulars are
devout koehler trainers and shock collar fans. That's why I'm here.
I came here to identify, expose, and discredit our dog abusing lying
Thugs.
Yours, Jerry.
Ed Williams
>
> Hello David,
>
> "David" <fall...@xoasis.com> wrote in message
> news:6f3d07de.01061...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Look around in the real world, the issue IS prong vs. choke and
> > unfortunatley the choke is winning by a wide margin IMO.
>
> Almost. That's the problem, but not as you're seeing it. The problem
> is the use of any choke or pinch or force or shock.
>
> The amount of hurt or pain is irrelevant. The problem is that ANY
> force, fear, or confrontation can cause extreme anxiety which
> results in other, seemingly un related behavior problems.
>
> The problem is particularly exacerbated by the pronged choke collar
> because of the way it works, triggering postitive thigmotaxis and
> overriding it through duress. That makes every experience a tense,
> frustrating situation, and the anxiety carries on long after the
> collar comes off.
>
Hey jer..
You keep talking about a "pronged choke collar".
I did a Google search & the only place they use a "pronged choke
collar" is in S&M fetish groups!
Is that where you learned about them jer????
David & Janette Sweeney
"Ed Williams" <"EdW[REMOVETOREPLY]"@Petloss.com> wrote in message
news:3B26D9...@Petloss.com...
ha ha ha good one Ed
Karen J. Cravens
<ixxV6.5021$0a6.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
>There must be *some* sounds which Sophie is ok with surely ? If not,
>what quality of life does she have if every single sound she hears
>causes her problems ? Her life would be intollerable like that. So what
>*doesnt* cause problems to her ? Whichever those are, and there must be
>some, are what I would use with her.
The ones that don't cause problems don't distract her. But yeah, she's a
skittish little dog.
Karen J. Cravens
<hgxV6.60204$hV3.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>:
> you may flame me now
No need. You self-immolated when you tried to use Google to post
anonymously. We're still laughing too hard to flame you, "Janetjanet."
David & Janette Sweeney
toodloo.Davenews:Xns90BED857...@192.168.0.3...
Karen J. Cravens
<7lgdit4f5o1sd1ujk...@4ax.com>:
> Voice/sound distraction often doesn't work on sighthounds when they're
> in pursuit of something, either. Although I don't have this problem
I figure if an Invisible Fence set on "burn" (as Jer would say) doesn't
stop one, making a Distracting Noise(tm) ain't gonna, either. I mean,
heck, the dogs are bred to race, *ignoring* distractions.
(I don't have this problem, either. Sadie is more inclined to run *from*
than *to* on-lead. I'm not sure how she'd react to a "sound distraction."
I'm inclined to think she'd react, since she's generally very focused on
whoever's holding the lead (they are, after all, the only thing standing
between her and the Big Scary World), but by the same token she doesn't
*need* distracting...)
Karen J. Cravens
<3B26C28E...@openaccess.org>:
Stuff and mount the dog?
Susan Fraser
>This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
>is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
>all.
Point, set, match.
;-)
Susan Fraser
and The Golden Girls,
SheBop and Shammie
Susan Fraser
>listens back to it, and makes a note of when her dog does take notice and
>when he doesn't, and to listen to how her voice sounds each time [ just with
>a Dictaphone ] - to see if she can make changes to how she sounds to the
>dog. In her case, I don't think she is giving out a "confident air" to her
>dog.
>Now, that's probably "deeper" and more effort than a lot of people would
>bother with, *but*, IMO, its worth consideration.
Um, am I the only one who has hours and hours of video of myself handling the
dog, not so much to see the dog, but to see and hear, how *I*'m doing?
Hours and hours spent practicing without the dog, recording voice, counting
steps, casting into mirrors?
Countless sessions of watching pros run and emulating their every move and
inflection?
Drills and evercises to build up my own muscles and diaphram to blow the
whistle or move smoothly?
Sessions of handling training buddies in the field so they can critique my
style and technique?
No? I'm not alone?
I didn't think so.
It takes a *lot* of that kind of effort to compete AND WIN at the levels many
of us do.
So when you say: >Now, that's probably "deeper" and more effort than a lot of
people would
>bother with, *but*, IMO, its worth consideration.
Trust me, sweetie. :> You don't have a clue.
Cindy
Cindy
Susan Fraser <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote:
>Trust me, sweetie. :> You don't have a clue.
Yah, well. SOmetimes it's amusing to watch on slow mornings, you know?
--Cindy
Patch
"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
news:20010613005833...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound distractions?
> >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
> >is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
> >all.
>
> Point, set, match.
>
> ;-)
>
>
out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
handler ?
Patch
Patch
"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
> >so I suggested she tapes her own voice and
> >listens back to it, and makes a note of when her dog does take notice and
> >when he doesn't, and to listen to how her voice sounds each time [ just
with
> >a Dictaphone ] - to see if she can make changes to how she sounds to the
> >dog. In her case, I don't think she is giving out a "confident air" to
her
> >dog.
> >Now, that's probably "deeper" and more effort than a lot of people would
> >bother with, *but*, IMO, its worth consideration.
>
<snip>
> So when you say: >Now, that's probably "deeper" and more effort than a lot
of
> people would
> >bother with, *but*, IMO, its worth consideration.
>
> Trust me, sweetie. :> You don't have a clue.
She`s a pet owner, sweetie, not a competition addict with a working dog.
As for saying I dont have a clue, why the bloody hell do you think I
suggested it to her ?
I`ll give you a hint - its because - trust me luvvie - I *do* have a bloody
clue.
When I come out with something that you do yourself, you *still* sodding
well flame me for it !!!
Unbelievable !!!!
Patch
Jerry Howe
"Sally Hennessey" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:7lgdit4f5o1sd1ujk...@4ax.com...
> On 13 Jun 2001 00:14:33 GMT, dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
wrote:
> >>"Patch" d.guipag...@ntlworld.com
> >wrote:
> >>The voice / sound distraction gets the attention of the dog
> >Unless it doesn't.
Well, it only don't if you screw it up.
> >Voice / sound distraction doesn't work on Madigan.
That's because you're choking the dog, that's why.
> > And I don't think she's theonly dog who doesn't respond to it.
NO dog will respond to it or anything else if you're CHOKING them.
> No, she's not. My Siberians respond to voice/sound distraction
> sometimes, but not while out for a walk.
BECAUSE YOU CHOKE THEM ON YOUR PRONGED CHOKE COLLAR.
> They seem to like to pull then.
BECAUSE YOU'RE CHOKING THEM.
> Must be that sled dog heritage.
No, it must be because you're a heavy handed Thug.
> I don't want to require them to heel, because it's a pleasure walk
for
> them.
Because you can't make them without hurting them, that's why.
> So they wear prong collars, and generally don't pull.
BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING CHOKED AND INTIMIDATED.
> Voice/sound distraction often doesn't work on sighthounds when
> they're in pursuit of something, either.
Is that so? You mean an untrained, unconditioned, out of control dog
won't respond to something he's never been trained to. You're an
imbecile, sally. And you're a Thug.
> Although I don't have this problem with mine on walks, because
> they don't try to chase while on lead.
BECAUSE YOU CHOKE THEM ON A PRONGED CHOKE COLLAR.
>Unless it works, when voice / sound distraction doesn't.
Lost me there. Sound distraction and praise works IF you use it
correctly and are NOT choking the dog. That's where you bums have
problems. You can't stop choking the dog.
> Yep. And I can guarantee you that prong collars don't hurt my
> Siberians.
Of course not, they enjoy it. And they've probably got lots more to
worry about than you just choking them on walks...
> Sally Hennessey
You're an idiot, sally. All you want to do is HURT dogs instead of
handle them properly becuase you need that sense of power and
control to compensate for your fragile ego and weak mind. Jerry.
Sally Hennessey
Cravens) wrote:
>Sally Hennessey <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in
><7lgdit4f5o1sd1ujk...@4ax.com>:
>
>> Voice/sound distraction often doesn't work on sighthounds when they're
>> in pursuit of something, either. Although I don't have this problem
>
>I figure if an Invisible Fence set on "burn" (as Jer would say) doesn't
>stop one, making a Distracting Noise(tm) ain't gonna, either. I mean,
>heck, the dogs are bred to race, *ignoring* distractions.
I wasn't really referring to ex-racers, but to any sighthounds, most
of whom, to a greater or lesser degree, are bred to chase. And when
there is more than one involved, pack mentality sets in, and, well,
these are dogs bred for centuries to hunt in packs.
By the way, I see you're not using "Jerry, AUK" for killfile filters
anymore, just "Jerry". Is that what you're going to be using for him?
I'd kind of like to know so I don't have to keep things to my killfile
just to keep him out.
Sally Hennessey
David
your case as to lose your message. You say prongs or chokes are not
the best method fine. But I've used both and seen literally thousands
of other use these collars and I have never seen a dog "eyes bulge out
and ... get blue" and no dog's behavior came close to equate with
"getting stuck in the throat with a knife, or getting his running
be "Killed" In fact most of these dogs are walking contently next to
their owners (especially those with Prong collars) which seems to
belie your absolutist/universal "positive thigmotaxis" effect.
BTW the reason most dogs are in shelters around my parts is not b/c of
bad training but b/c of NO training, and a failure to fix animals.
Maybe your method is better for most dogs - great, but you'd be a much
better advocate for your position if you'd stop lying, in fact, if you
would spend half the time you spend on this ng make ridiculous
overblown statements in an attempt to sell your book, on getting new
dog owners to fix their dogs and advocating for mandatory spade and
nuetering laws, you'd save thousands if not millions of dogs instead
of pissing off responsible good dog owners and saving no one.
Mary Healey
> "Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote:
Cindy wrote:
> > >How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound distractions?
> > >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
> > >is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
> > >all.
> >
> > Point, set, match.
> What "point set and match" is there about a handler not bothering to work
> out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
> handler ?
Well, it seems that Cindy HAS figured out what will motivate her dogs to
comply, and it ain't sound distractions.
I'm going to have to cut back on the sound distractions. I tossed a
magazine to get Ranger's attention, and it freaked poor Dukie to bits.
In a household of multiple bilateral-hearing dogs with different
sensitivities to sound, everything has to be evaluated in terms of its
effect on ALL the dogs, even the ones sleeping quietly under the chair.
I prefer Duke oblivious to terrified.
--
Mary H. & the Ames National Zoo: Raise a Fund ("Regis");
ANZ Sam-I-Am, CGC; ANZ Noah Doll, CGC; ANZ Babylon Ranger, CGC; ANZ
MarmaDUKE
felines, finches and a fish
Cindy
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
>news:20010613005833...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
>> >How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound distractions?
>> >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
>> >is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
>> >all.
>>
>> Point, set, match.
>
>out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
>handler ?
Oh, i've worked out exactly what makes her comply. Hint: it's not sound.
--Cindy
Jerry Howe
"Cindy" <tit...@eris.io.com> wrote in message
news:TxLV6.42483$Uo3.1...@news6.giganews.com...
> In article <_EGV6.687$9t5....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
> >news:20010613005833...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >> >How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound
> >> > distractions?
Oh THAT??? NO PROBLEM. It's not a matter if you can INTIMIDATE the
dog with sound... it's a matter of CONDITIONING the dog to respond
to the techniques which our dog abusing THUGS cannot understand
because there is no PAIN involved, as you enjoy ordinarily, so using
sound distraction and praise takes all the FUN out of jerking and
choking and shocking dogs.
> >> >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs.
Yes, as you just found out with your barking dog. You've hurt him,
that's why he barks. And now you're hurting him someMOORE to break
the barking you accidentally trained him to do by BEATING and
SHOCKING and CHOKING him on line.
> >> > When one of my dogs is fixing to retrieve something,
You restrain him and BEAT HIM WITH A STICK, as amy dahl teaches on
her "forced fetch without the shock collar" page or pinch and twist
his ears till he screams, as taught on cindy MOOREON'S page that she
just took down because she's embarrassed and bitched about copyright
infringement and screamed that you bums don't teach people those
admittedly heavy handed technuiques (amy dahl's words, as taught in
her koehler book).
> >> > isn't much going to distract her at all.
Right. Because you don't know the TECHNIQUES,
> >> Point, set, match.
AND YOU PREFER HURTING YOUR DOGS, BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU FEEL
COMPETENT AND POWERFUL.
> >What "point set and match" is there about a handler not bothering
> > to work out what will motivate the dog
OH? THAT? NO PROBLEM. Just shock and beat the dog. You'll find all
the instructions you'll need on cindymooreon's faq's page, amy dahls
web page, and you'll get lots of advice off the board from our
lying, dog abusing THUGS who tell us they don't do what they TEACH
us to do.
Convinenient, that most of our rpdb regulars are lying, dogs abusing
COWARDS who fear the truth almost as much as they fear the dogs they
HURT under the disguise of training.
> > to comply instead of the dog ingnoring thehandler ?
That doesn't happen with my students, because they don't hurt and
confront and punish dogs to make them WANT to work for them.
> Oh, i've worked out exactly what makes her comply.
Yes. You like to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collar and
shock them and beat them with sticks and twist and pinch their ears.
> Hint: it's not sound.
Right. The only sounds you'll hear are the dogs screaming in pain,
and that don't bother cindy mooreon none, on account of she's as
deaf as she is vicuous.
> --Cindy
Can we discuss your web page on the forced fetch, cindy?
Just provide a link so I can refresh my memory.. Thanks in advance,
your pal, Jerry.
Karen J. Cravens
>I wasn't really referring to ex-racers, but to any sighthounds, most
>of whom, to a greater or lesser degree, are bred to chase. And when
>there is more than one involved, pack mentality sets in, and, well,
>these are dogs bred for centuries to hunt in packs.
Yeah, I had a bit in there early on about "especially ex-racers" but then
reworded and it went away. I was specifically thinking of my parents'
neighbor's dog, the one that bit the roofer and chased kids down the
sidewalk. The guy couldn't understand why the dog wouldn't stay in the
yard, but geez, by the time the dog hit the boundary line, it was going so
fast the darn collar *might*, if it was lucky, have time for a little bitsy
buzz...
>By the way, I see you're not using "Jerry, AUK" for killfile filters
>anymore, just "Jerry". Is that what you're going to be using for him?
>I'd kind of like to know so I don't have to keep things to my killfile
>just to keep him out.
You'll want to killfile on [Jerry with no closing bracket if you don't want
to see Jerry messages at all. AUK indicates a message that doesn't need
any replies here on account of it's just Jerry kookishness, a plain [Jerry]
is a message that has some signal (or at least more than the usual level of
amusement value) in it and is okay for replies but I'm still going to warn
those people who don't want to see Jerry at all, ever.
Karen DuChateaux
>
> In article <ixxV6.5021$0a6.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >There must be *some* sounds which Sophie is ok with surely ? If not, what
> >quality of life does she have if every single sound she hears causes her
> >problems ? Her life would be intollerable like that. So what *doesnt* cause
> >problems to her ? Whichever those are, and there must be some, are what I
> >would use with her.
>
> is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
> all.
>
> It's pretty silly for you to insist that sound distractions work on
> all dogs. You know, like trying to insist that one method will work
> for all?
>
> --Cindy
It also seems counterproductive to use sound distraction on a dog that
is already hyper-reactive to sounds and that one is trying to
desensitize.
(karibear)
Karen J. Cravens
<jtMV6.446537$o9.72...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>:
>Oh THAT??? NO PROBLEM. It's not a matter if you can INTIMIDATE the
>dog with sound... it's a matter of CONDITIONING the dog to respond
>to the techniques which our dog abusing THUGS cannot understand
>because there is no PAIN involved, as you enjoy ordinarily, so using
>sound distraction and praise takes all the FUN out of jerking and
>choking and shocking dogs.
Nobody's ever jerked, choked, or shocked Sophie The Bark Lion Sentinel Dog.
She's been a pampered little fou-fou dog. And she's very *easily*
intimidated with sound, so *not* being able to do that is hardly the
problem.
But you still can't train her. You've hit a wall, as you're so fond of
saying. (Well, trying to say, anyway. I dunno if anybody else has seen
you say it, though.)
Jerry Howe
"David" <fall...@xoasis.com> wrote in message
news:6f3d07de.01061...@posting.google.com...
> Jerry the reason why you are so ridiculous is b/c
It's my nose, isn't it? I begged mom to get me a nose job, but she
won't. She's always so mean to me!
> you so overstate your case as to lose your message.
That's probably correct. Too much information for too small minds.
> You say prongs or chokes are not the best method fine.
I've never said that. Pronged and choke and shock collars and any
negative interaction is responsible for most of our dog behavor
problems. That's what makes dogs hyperactive, obsessive barkers,
compulsive chewers, and aggressive.
> But I've used both and seen literally thousands of other use these
> collars
And if you'll notice, the folks here like leah and stephanie and lia
and blackman, are the ones who've got the most serious and long
lasting behavior problems. The only reason a person needs to pull on
a dog's leash is because they don't know any better, that they're
mishandling their dog.
The collars only worsen the situation. I grew up training giant
breed dog who were too big to force and too dangerous to intimidate
or antagonize to train them. Many of the dog's I've trained have
come from force trainers, some of the "best" in the business who
gave up on them after getting hurt and told the people to kill their
dogs.
> and I have never seen a dog "eyes bulge out
> and ... get blue"
Oh that! That's in our koehler book, under what we're supposed to do
to the dog we've been jerking and choking and beating, in the event
he gets dominant aggressive and tries to attack his loving trainer.
The deal is, you got to hang the dog properly or you'll need to do
it again. It's in the book endorsed by most of our rpdb regulars.
Ask them. The book won't suddenly disappear like cindy moore's
forced fetch page with all the screaming dogs. Ask cindy for the
link to her forced fetch page that has embarrassed her to death and
she's bitching about copyright infringement. She ought to be in a
mental institute for the criminally insane, for what she does to
dogs. Same with dahl. Have you read her "forced fetch without the E
collar?" She ties a Retriever dog to a tree and throws a retrieve
article out of his reach, and BEATS the dog with a stick to MOTIVATE
them. Is that SANE? I DON'T THINK SO.
And then she denies it??? Ask her.
> and no dog's behavior came close to equate with
> "getting stuck in the throat with a knife, or getting his running
> lights blown out by a heater"
That's why choking is such an excellent alternative, at least when
I'm fighting a man.
> and none seemed like they were about to be "Killed"
That's what triggers the survival instinct which is what causes our
dogs to turn on our koehler trainers who only hang dogs to defend
themselves from their dogs when they're trying to take a big chunk
out of their @$$ like your pal dogman always says. But it's not just
dogman who is fond of hurting dogs till he's provoked them to attack
him and then hangs them....
I'd bet thirty eight years of my life that most of our experts here
have done that themselves on many occasions. That's the nature of
hurting dogs to train them. J.Q. Public usually just kills the dog,
but our experts EXPECT these little setbacks now and again, and deal
with it properly, by hanging their dog till it's eyes roll back in
it's head, it's tongue turns thick and blue, and when you put him
back on the ground, he should stagger to his feet and puke, or you
didn't hang him right. Like it says in your koehler book.
> In fact most of these dogs are walking contently next to
> their owners (especially those with Prong collars)
And the ones that aren't, they didn't make it through their
training.
> which seems to belie your absolutist/universal "positive
thigmotaxis"
> effect.
That's the problem, Douglas. You don't SEE the internal damage the
pronged chok collar causes. Ther problem isn't physical damage, I'm
not worried about hurting a dogs' throat, I'm worried about ruining
the dogs TEMPERAMENT, and getting him DEAD.
The problem is, the pronged choke collar or ANY force on the dogs'
collar triggers the opposition reflex. The pronges work by digging
and pinching into the dogs' throat, just like I enjoy doing to wise
guys who need to get hurt. That triggers anxiety and overstimulates
the parasympathetic nervous system and drives the dogs' temperament
out of control. That's why so many of our posters have problems like
obsessive barking, compulsive chewing, pacing, whining, howling,
digging, self mutilation, aggression, and anxiety related health
disorders.
> BTW the reason most dogs are in shelters around my parts is not
> b/c of bad training but b/c of NO training, and a failure to fix
> animals.
WHOA! That's what you say. I'm telling you those "UNTRAINED" dogs
have been MIS handled just like most of you handle your dogs, and
some of our dogs just don't survive living like that.
> Maybe your method is better for most dogs -
Not for most dogs. For all dogs. Dogs do not NEED to be jerked and
choked and shocked no matter HOWE gently.
> great, but you'd be a much better advocate for your position if
you'd
> stop lying,
Well, I've been working in this field for thirty eight years,
specializing in temperament and behavior problems. Every thing I'm
telling you about dog training and behavior can be verified as FACT,
so don't tell nobody I'm lying.
> in fact, if you would spend half the time you spend on this ng
make
> ridiculous overblown statements in an attempt to sell your book,
I'm not selling no book, I've got a comprehensive FREE training
manual, if you are bright enough to be able to read it and if you're
creative enough to ask for FREE help if you have difficulty with the
FREE text or techniques. Dog training is NOT hard work like you've
all been led to believe. I spend about NINETY MINUTES training a
family and their problem dog to rehabilitate ALL their behavior
problems, and they never have another problem again.
> on getting new dog owners to fix their dogs and advocating for
> mandatory spade and nuetering laws, you'd save thousands if not
> millions of dogs
The over pupulation of pound dogs problem is not because of dogs
breeding, it's because of people trying to force and punish and
confine and confont dog's behavior problems. Most people who dump
dogs at shelters usually get another dog as soon as they get over
the grief they had with their last dogs' destructiveness and
housebreaking problems. They give up their dogs ONLY because they've
been told to do the same exact things our experts here are telling
them to do.
> instead of pissing off responsible good dog owners
> and saving no one.
I've never pissed off any responsible, decent dog owners, only our
rpdb regulars, who are predominantely koehler trainers and that's
why I came in here, to identify, expose, and discredit our lying,
dog abusing Thugs.
Have you read your koehler today, David? j;~}
Jerry Howe
"Karen DuChateaux" <kar...@openaccess.org> wrote in message
news:3B27A8FA...@openaccess.org...
> Cindy wrote:
> > In article
<ixxV6.5021$0a6.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> > Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >There must be *some* sounds which Sophie is ok with surely ?
> > > If not, what quality of life does she have if every single
sound
> > > she hears causes her problems ? Her life would be intollerable
> > > like that. So what *doesnt* cause problems to her ? Whichever
> > > those are, and there must be some, are what would use with
> > > her.
> > How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound
> > distractions?
Care? What's to CARE about? Dogs work for the TECHNIQUE, not because
we're giving treats. It's called CONDITIONING.
> > This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs.
Oh, well that's something I work with all the time. Gunshyness is EZ
to overcome, IF you know HOWE.
> > When one of my dogs is fixing to retrieve something, isn't
much
> > going to distract her at all.
Right. Because she hasn't been CONDITIONED to the sound.
> > It's pretty silly for you to insist that sound distractions work
on
> > all dogs.
Right. It's STUPID to rely on SCIENCE.
> > You know, like trying to insist that one method will work
> > for all?
Yes, my methods DO work on all dogs, including wolves. The problem
is, you bums don't understand the methods because you don't see any
TRAINING going on because there's NO PAIN, so it don't LOOK like
training to our Thugs.
> > --Cindy
> It also seems counterproductive to use sound distraction on a dog
> that is already hyper-reactive to sounds and that one is trying to
> desensitize.
Yes, it would be foolish to use scientific conditioning and
deconditioning techniques to desensitize and condition a dog to be
sensitized, huh?
> (karibear)
Can't you see HOWE F'n ignorant you and your Thug pals are? You're
not stupid people, HOWE can it be you're so ignorant? You're not.
You're LYING to cover up for the fact you WANT to inflict pain on
dogs because it makes you feel powerful and in control, it
compensates for your fragile ego's and weak minds.
That's all for now. Jerry.
Susan Fraser
>
>She`s a pet owner, sweetie, not a competition addict with a working dog.
CRING! CRING! CRING!
Patch, for the most part I have absolutely nothing against 99% of the advice
that you give out **IF** the person is a pet owner!!! As a matter of fact, you
are MUCH more highly qualified to give advice to people who want couch potato
dogs who just *don't* do a whole heck of a lot of anything, including get into
trouble.
But when speaking of dogs that DO do a lot; indeed, dogs who we train exactly
BY putting them in the teeth of the very things that are so inherently
self-rewarding and motivating to them that techniques which may work fine on
pet dogs become meaningless - laughable, actually - well, I truly think you are
so niave about these situations that it is quite appropriate to say "you don't
have a clue".
Unless I missed your posts about training working dogs for competition? If so,
I appologize. I was under the impression that your forte' was pet dog behavior.
I recall you did watch some sheep being herded. Perhaps you've done a tad of
agility?
>I`ll give you a hint - its because - trust me luvvie - I *do* have a bloody
>clue.
Mmm hum. Fine to tell a lady to whom using a dictaphone to practice commands is
probably more effort than she's willing to bother with. Kudos. I'm all behind
you there.
But you came here telling US who *do so much more* with our dogs than her ilk
what WE should and should not do, and touting inappropriate methods to OUR
situations as a panacea, and without any first-hand experience at all, sling
insults at US based on erroneous notions --
Well, I stick by my statement.
Trust me, sweetie. :> You don't have a clue.
Susan Fraser
>> >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
>> >is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
>> >all.
>>
>> Point, set, match.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>What "point set and match" is there about a handler not bothering to work
>out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
>handler ?
Colonel Mustard in the Library with the Candlestick?
;-P~~~*
Jerry Howe
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90BF676A...@192.168.0.3...
> Sally Hennessey <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in
> <g5reitcu9fj54pv8t...@4ax.com>:
> >I wasn't really referring to ex-racers, but to any sighthounds,
most
> >of whom, to a greater or lesser degree, are bred to chase. And
> > when there is more than one involved, pack mentality sets in,
> > and, well, these are dogs bred for centuries to hunt in packs.
You mean kind of like our Gang Of Thugs, huh?
> Yeah, I had a bit in there early on about "especially ex-racers"
but
> then reworded and it went away.
Like cindy moore's forced fetch page with all the screaming dogs in
it?
> I was specifically thinking of my parents' neighbor's dog, the one
> that bit the roofer and chased kids down the sidewalk. The guy
> couldn't understand why the dog wouldn't stay in the yard, but
> geez, by the time the dog hit the boundary line, it was going so
> fast the darn collar *might*, if it was lucky, have time for a
little bitsy
> buzz...
O.K. The man might not have got bitten if you bums weren't shocking
the dog, like that little dog in "interested in hearing" and "1 step
forward." That's two cases where the dogs had aggressive behavior
because of shock fences, and one of them dogs is dead, and I've got
a hundred bucks that says Cubbe ain't gonna be here come next April
Fools' Day.
> >By the way, I see you're not using "Jerry, AUK" for killfile
filters
> >anymore, just "Jerry". Is that what you're going to be using for
> > him?
She'd better use a new identity, because her name is Thug, around
here.
> >I'd kind of like to know so I don't have to keep things to my
killfile
> >just to keep him out.
Don't worry about me. Worry about the people I'm wising up to you
Thugs.
> You'll want to killfile on [Jerry with no closing bracket if you
don't
> want to see Jerry messages at all.
O.K. I'll keep that in mind.
> AUK indicates a message that doesn't need any replies here on
> account of it's just Jerry kookishness,
Yeah, like teaching people HOWE to train dogs without hurting them.
> a plain [Jerry] is a message that has some signal (or at least
more
> than the usual level of amusement value)
Oh, you find being exposed as a lying, dog abusing Thug amusing?
I'll keep you laughing till I'm the only one still grinning, huh?
> in it and is okay for replies but I'm still going to warn
> those people who don't want to see Jerry at all, ever.
That they'll never get away without their careers and reputations
being ruined?
> Karen J. Cravens
Tell me sumpthin. When your pal amy ties a Retriever Dog and throws
a dummy beyond his reach, and beats the Retriever Dog with a stick
to make him really dig in, let's say the dog snaps at his trainer
for beating him? That IS predictable, when we beat a dog, isn't it?
When the Retriever Dog takes his beating and isn't convinced that's
professional dog training, do we hang the dog just like as if we
were just choking and shocking and twisting and pinching it's ears
for obedience training, or do we just kill the dog without hanging
him first?
I'm looking forward to doing some retrieves with my puppy's, and I
don't want to make any mistakes. Can anyone give me additonal help
with the forced fetch?
Thanks, and my puppies thank you too. Jerry.
roo
Scandinavia!
Alikat
J1Boss
>Now, mandatory spay and neuter laws would not go down well in the UK or
>Scandinavia!
>Alikat
They would be if you had the huge population problems we have here! I have
very mixed feelings about them (all allow for intact animals with an exclusion
involving higher licensing fees). This higher fees are the main sticking point
for me - I think they need to be lowered and just uphold the guidelines. In
theory, I'd prefer if every pet owner could be counted on for making
responsible decisions for themselves, and manage thier pets appropriately, but
sadly, it just doesn't seem to work that way.
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
"Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
Cindy
J1Boss <j1b...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Now, mandatory spay and neuter laws would not go down well in the UK or
>>Scandinavia!
>>Alikat
>
>They would be if you had the huge population problems we have here!
Yep. 25 years ago, spay/neuter was *much* less common here. It
wouldn't take too long to change your POV if you had the sort of
problems we wound up facing.
--Cindy
J1Boss
>Yep. 25 years ago, spay/neuter was *much* less common here. It
>wouldn't take too long to change your POV if you had the sort of
>problems we wound up facing.
>
>--Cindy
I got my first dog 28 years ago. When I think of all of the things that would
have gone much smoother if he had been neutered earlier, boy - life would have
been better! He was a great dog in so many ways, but he had some definite
focus problems due to raging hormones.
My vet at the time (please note I was a mid-teen at the time!) gave me
TRANQUILIZERS for the dog, because he told me my dog was oversexed. I wish
neutering had been more common - the dog and the family would have been a lot
happier.
He WAS neutered at age 8.5, and it was a wonderful thing for all. While I know
that individual dogs I choose, as well as my much better skills at this point
in my life, would make me better equiped to handle such difficulties now, I
still prefer altered dogs for what I do with them and where they go - it makes
life easier on all of us. Can't deny that my "Charlie experience" has had a
big impact on my choice!
Helle Haugenes
>Now, mandatory spay and neuter laws would not go down well in the UK or
>Scandinavia!
Nope! I would never obey such a law, and I don't know many who would.
The vets would be rich and happy though.. it costs about $500 to spay
a bitch.
Helle
Cindy
*drops jaw*
With assorted programs and such, about $50 here. Say about $100
if you have a large dog and an expensive vet.
--Cindy
Kind2dogs
>From: j1b...@aol.com (J1Boss)
>Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 6:28 PM
>Message-id: <20010613182825...@ng-fk1.aol.com>
>
>>
>>Yep. 25 years ago, spay/neuter was *much* less common here. It
>>wouldn't take too long to change your POV if you had the sort of
>>problems we wound up facing.
>>
>>--Cindy
>
>I got my first dog 28 years ago. When I think of all of the things that
>would
>have gone much smoother if he had been neutered earlier, boy - life would
>have
>been better! He was a great dog in so many ways, but he had some definite
>focus problems due to raging hormones.
>
>My vet at the time (please note I was a mid-teen at the time!) gave me
>TRANQUILIZERS for the dog, because he told me my dog was oversexed.
It is amazing till this day what a vet will tell you.
> I wish
>neutering had been more common - the dog and the family would have been
>a lot
>happier.
I know it was common growing up where I lived and in fact all the neighbourhood
dogs roamed...
Back then it wasn't even a consideration much not to let them do it.
Gee I remember letting my dogs hang out in Woods Hole and my Joshua (newfie)
would go over on the boat to Nantucket.
Amazing to me now.
>He WAS neutered at age 8.5, and it was a wonderful thing for all. While
>I know
>that individual dogs I choose, as well as my much better skills at this
>point
>in my life, would make me better equiped to handle such difficulties now,
>I
>still prefer altered dogs for what I do with them and where they go - it
>makes
>life easier on all of us. Can't deny that my "Charlie experience" has had
>a
>big impact on my choice!
>
>Janet Boss
>
Now I had a Chessie, a GSP and A Newfie all in tact.
No fights.. Go figure...
They were inseparable.
Brier the GSP would look for trouble with other guy dogs as I do think he was a
FOP,and then start a fight and my other two guys would have to leap to his
defense.
Anyway the memories,huh?
Paulette~
A dogs life is too short...
Their only fault really...
Kind2dogs
>Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 6:39 PM
>Message-id: <moqfitk4jcj4fakvb...@4ax.com>
Yikes!
To put things in perspective for me
How much does it cost for a pound of butter?
Here it is $4.29.-$4.99 in the market when it is not on sale.
Leah
wrote:
>IOW, a dog might respond to one persons voice but not another - different
>tones / pitch etc, it might respond to a dog whistle but not a referees
>whistle, it certainly can vary - so its just a matter of finding what sound
>gets the dogs attention - not in a stressful way, but one which gets the dog
>to look for the sound source with interest.
Madigan's too smart for that. :}
Her trainer and I tried several different sound distractions, from keys thrown
on the floor to voice to dog whistles. Yea, the first time she's distracted.
The second time, she knows what it is and ignores it.
The only sound that works reliably with her is the squirt of the air can - and
that's only in one context: stop barking. So it's not so much of a distraction
as a positive aversive (do I have the terminology right? :}
Learn How to Can Spam
http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml
http://www.spamfree.org/
WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH - Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/
Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)
John F Richardson
:With assorted programs and such,
:about $50 here.
There's a program in NJ where you
can have it done for as little as $20,
but it isn't always available. We haven't
used it for our own dogs, but have with
two of our foster dogs.
JohnR
Pit Bull Libertarian
Never sneer at the power of a little
pink squeaky toy!
Julia F N Altshuler
<Xns90BEE853...@192.168.0.3>:
Distribution:
Karen J. Cravens (silve...@phoenyx.net) wrote:
: Karen DuChateaux <kar...@openaccess.org> wrote in
: <3B26C28E...@openaccess.org>:
: >David & Janette Sweeney wrote:
: >>
: >> Cindy, there is a method that will work everytime, without failure, it
: >> will never fail...Dave
: >
: >So what is this wonder method?
: Stuff and mount the dog?
This works very well for SIT and STAY, but not for COME.
--Lia
--
"It is a strange fact of life on earth that a human being who reaches
college age under the impression that "it's" is the possessive form of
"it" cannot be disabused of that belief. No amount of red ink will wash
it out."
Louis Menand
Helle Haugenes
>>From: Helle Haugenes haug...@idi.ntnu.no
[..]
>>The vets would be rich and happy though.. it costs about $500 to spay
>>a bitch.
>[..] Yikes!
I know.. but I think it's fine that it is so exspensive.. that way
most dogs remain in their natural state, so to speak :-) I know you
don't agree with me, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Since most dogs are insured, the owners won't have to pay that much if
the dog really need to surgery. When Xeni had pyo, the insurance
company paid for 80% of the surgery.
>To put things in perspective for me
>How much does it cost for a pound of butter?
Hm.. I never look at the prices (not that I'm rich, but if I need
butter I buy it and when I'm broke I don't ;-), about $2-$2.5, I would
guess. One litre of milk, about 1/4 gallon I think, is about $1.
>Here it is $4.29.-$4.99 in the market when it is not on sale.
That's quite a lot.. You don't bake much then, do you? ;-)
Helle
Leah
>How about trying a gentle leader instead? Works like a charm on my
>big girl and I don't have to *pinch* her.
Doesn't work on all dogs. Madigan hated it, and would either claw at it or
shut down (literally lay down and not move).
The prong collar doesn't seem to bother her at all, except for the frustration
she apparently feels at not being able to yank me off my feet to chase after a
squirrel.
In comparison, for *my* dog, the GL is cruel and the prong is humane.
Karen DuChateaux
ROFLMAO!
I can understand missing a post or so, but it looks like whatserpatch is
missing whole gobs of threads! Like each and every one that brags about
accomplishments. And conveniently misses seeing the titles after the
dogs' names, as well.
Sooo right. Like anyone can achieve anything with any dog without having
figured out what motivates them first. Good grief.
Saw Donald McCaig on a Discovery channel thing the other day, working
one of his BCs. I don't think anything on earth could be as motivating
to that dog as being able to work woollies woollies woollies. People
should be so furtunate, to have a job to do that gives them such joy.
(karibear)
Kind2dogs
>Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 7:08 PM
>Message-id: <20010613190839...@ng-cj1.aol.com>
In the late 80's I started using different new vets that needed the business
for the spay or neuter of the shelter dogs.
I think the cost was $40.00.
Problem was that the dogs died, either during surgery, or after from
complications... : (
This vet always had an excuse...
He was a nice enough fellow but was NOT a good surgeon.
The last dog that died at the hands of this butcher was Sedgewick* the greatest
little big dog a Cardigan WC.
I will always remember bringing Sedgewick in, and feeling him, and loving
him,and he looking up at me with those happy brown eyes.
That was the last time I saw him.
He was number three to be butchered and the last of any of my dogs.
He eventually had to leave town,as noone wanted to go there, and he couldn't
get a job at any of the vets in the area.
On a side note I have always thought that when I get so old that I can't pick
up the 100 pound Brown Dgs I will get me a crew of Corgi's....
Leah
>> Well David, that's because a few of us with upwards of thirty years
>> of professional experience EACH, have found that non force training
>> methods work faster and better and without jeaopardizing temperments
>> and risks of having to KILL dogs who won't knuckle down to force.
Sigh.
Okay, Jerry. Here we go. I'm going to give you a chance to put your money
where your mouth is and PROVE, once and for all, if your methods will work on
every dog.
You say you can train any dog in an hour. Here's my challenge. I'll give you
one hour with Madigan. Train her to walk nicely on a leash, without pulling,
with (your choice) a flat collar or a harness.
If you can do that, I'll take you out of my killfile and support you as a
miracle-worker on this newsgroup.
We live in the same town. My schedule is flexible. This should be easy to
arrange.
E-mail me privately if you wish to take me up on the challenge, and we'll make
arrangements. Don't answer me here - I won't see it. :}
Oh, one caveat... Madigan WILL perform well in a classroom situation. She
always does. To pass the test, she will need to be walked in a "real life"
situation, with other people and other animals around.
Kind2dogs
>Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 7:20 PM
>Message-id: <8msfit814ehg5jp7o...@4ax.com>
>
>On 13 Jun 2001 22:52:03 GMT, kind...@aol.com (Kind2dogs) wrote:
>
>>>From: Helle Haugenes haug...@idi.ntnu.no
>[..]
>>>The vets would be rich and happy though.. it costs about $500 to spay
>>>a bitch.
>
>>[..] Yikes!
>
>I know.. but I think it's fine that it is so exspensive.. that way
>most dogs remain in their natural state, so to speak :-) I know you
>don't agree with me, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Helle, none of my dogs are spayed.
None of my dogs were neutered except one.
So I am not big on this for my dogs, but I do believe that it is the very best
thing for most dogs and their owners.
I also will not adopt a dog out to someone unless I have the dog done.
I know I am capable of not having accidents but I am not so sure about others.
: )
>Since most dogs are insured, the owners won't have to pay that much if
>the dog really need to surgery.
Hmmm interesting.
We have insurance for pets here as well, but I don't know many that use it.
>When Xeni had pyo, the insurance
>company paid for 80% of the surgery.
>
>>To put things in perspective for me
>>How much does it cost for a pound of butter?
>
>Hm.. I never look at the prices (not that I'm rich, but if I need
>butter I buy it and when I'm broke I don't ;-), about $2-$2.5, I would
>guess. One litre of milk, about 1/4 gallon I think, is about $1.
That is just about the same here, as I just looked,on a gallon $3.79
>>Here it is $4.29.-$4.99 in the market when it is not on sale.
Yes I think so too. I use to be able to buy it at MAX just last year for about
$2.29.
With the way you have told me about prices.that $500, really is at least double
the price than here in my area.
>That's quite a lot.. You don't bake much then, do you? ;-)
>
>Helle
No ,just all the time...
People like to come visit and chat so I have to give them some nice dessert to
go along with their coffee,huh?
I just made two trays of Baklava for my cousins 9Th birthday party on Saturday.
About 60 little screaming people...
Headacheville....
Karen DuChateaux
Wow. Where I was in AK it was about 150 for a spay. Adopting from the
shelter, it was included in the fee, ~75. If it was a pup or kitten too
young for the surgery, a s/n certificate good at any of the vets was
included, The certificate didn't have to be used, but the s/n had to be
done by 4 months. Otherwise, the shelter repo'd the animal. Nearly 30
years ago I had the last of the sibes done, 4 for 50 each.
(karibear)
dianne marie schoenberg
>She`s a pet owner, sweetie, not a competition addict with a working dog.
Y'know, Patch, just about everyone here that you just insulted
with the phrase "competition addicts" started out as a pet owner.
For us, the availability of competition is a motivator to train
our dogs to a high level; in fact, it's probably the *best*
motivator I've found to get dog owners to start considering their
dogs' psychology, to learn to understand what drives them, and
yes, to do things like pay attention to the inflection of their
voices, to practice footwork, to get up early in the mornings
and drive long distances to go herding or tracking or whatever.
So it's hard to understand exactly what you expect to accomplish
by insulting and denegrating people who compete with their dogs.
>Unbelievable !!!!
Indeed.
Dianne
Patch
"Cindy" <tit...@eris.io.com> wrote in message
news:TxLV6.42483$Uo3.1...@news6.giganews.com...
> In article <_EGV6.687$9t5....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
> >news:20010613005833...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >> >How about a dog that simply doesn't care about sound distractions?
> >> >This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs
> >> >is fixing to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at
> >> >all.
> >>
> >> Point, set, match.
> >
> >out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
> >handler ?
>
>
> --Cindy
I`m talking about motivation Cindy, fun, not force.
Patch
Cindy
So'm I, actually.
--Cindy
Patch
"Karen DuChateaux" <kar...@openaccess.org> wrote in message
> I can understand missing a post or so, but it looks like whatserpatch
Dont know any one of that name.
is
> missing whole gobs of threads! Like each and every one that brags about
> accomplishments.
?????????????
And conveniently misses seeing the titles after the
> dogs' names, as well.
>
Nope, I dont conveniently miss seeing titles after names, I`m just not a
titles worshipper.
> Sooo right. Like anyone can achieve anything with any dog without having
> figured out what motivates them first. Good grief.
Theres a big difference between motivating a dog to *willingly* work, and
*forcing* it to work.
Patch
Patch
"Julia F N Altshuler" <d000...@dc.seflin.org> wrote in message
news:9g8r7g$m...@nntp.seflin.org...
> 4...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com> <3B26C28E...@openaccess.org>
> <Xns90BEE853...@192.168.0.3>:
> Distribution:
>
> Karen J. Cravens (silve...@phoenyx.net) wrote:
> : Karen DuChateaux <kar...@openaccess.org> wrote in
> : <3B26C28E...@openaccess.org>:
>
> : >David & Janette Sweeney wrote:
> : >>
> : >> Cindy, there is a method that will work everytime, without failure,
it
> : >> will never fail...Dave
> : >
> : >So what is this wonder method?
>
> : Stuff and mount the dog?
>
> This works very well for SIT and STAY, but not for COME.
>
> --Lia
Oh come on. Haven't you heard of remote control ?
Patch
Kind2dogs
Where have you been?
Cindy
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Theres a big difference between motivating a dog to *willingly* work, and
>*forcing* it to work.
Yes there is, and it's amazing that you've actually figured that one
out.
Next?
--Cindy
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>Theres a big difference between motivating a dog to *willingly* work, and
>*forcing* it to work.
Who forces dogs to work around here?
Poor Patch: one day she may own a dog that likes to work. Probably not
though: much of that liking to work is something cultivated by good
training, something that seems to be lacking in PatchLand.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
==========================================================================
Its up to your government to streamline the same laws to all states. Its
hardly surprising so much abuse happens when there is no uniformity.<Patch>
John F Richardson
addict". And I say: long live the "competition
addicts" and their wonderful dogs! Just
yesterday, Lora Bauer, an occasional
poster in these parts, posted to the
Pit/Staff lists a jpeg of the magazine
cover of an Italian AmStaff journal
which depicted her wonderful dog,
Meme, on the fly in an agility competition.
Anyone who can't grasp what wonders
such positive coverage can do for maligned
breeds are failing to grasp a LOT.
But even ignoring such modern
mega-concerns as fighting breed
prejudice, training dogs to excel
at events they love is one of the
best ways imaginable to encourage
a dog to be truly engaged in his/her
own life. Not a shabby goal, eh?
I kinda prefer making my own
merry mayhem, and my dogs
haven't been complaining. But
when you see a dog just loving
the thrill of excelling at a more
formal, more organized, more
competitive sort of activity,
how can you not smile?
Patch
Uhuh
Patch
Patch
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010613203912...@ng-mk1.aol.com...
Just busy - nothing that many here would be interested in :-)
BTW Paulette, Dogstar and Marilyn, scanner is up and running but have to get
settings fine tuned - pics of Willow on their way very soon :-)
Patch
>
Patch
I figured it out many years ago. Would you like some help in understanding
it yourself ?
Patch
Patch
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9g91bq$q72$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> In <kyTV6.9429$9t5.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com> "Patch"
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>
> >Theres a big difference between motivating a dog to *willingly* work, and
> >*forcing* it to work.
>
>
>
> Who forces dogs to work around here?
**Force** Fetch mean anything to you ?
>
> Poor Patch: one day she may own a dog that likes to work. Probably not
> though:
Really ? I`ve got three at the moment thanks.
much of that liking to work is something cultivated by good
> training,
Good training, respect, compassion, understanding ......sorry, did I leave
you behind at the first word ?.
>something that seems to be lacking in PatchLand.
ROTFLMTO !!!
Patch
Cindy
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Uhuh
Sure, you're just taking the easy way out of lobbing insults in my
direction rather than actually understand what having a highly
motivated, hard working dog entails.
Motivation is not the problem. I've got motivation up the wazoo.
These are happy, hard working dogs. I do need control, since the
dogs, in their enthusiam, try to do ten things at once.
It's not a problem you have, so frankly, you should just not worry
your little head about it.
--Cindy
Cindy
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Who forces dogs to work around here?
>
>**Force** Fetch mean anything to you ?
Guess you just skimmed the title of it and didn't actually read it.
You know, the part about that it's a conditioned retrieve, and that
the term force fetch is a misnomer.
But that's alright -- it would have required that you actually think.
I really don't expect that from you.
--Cindy
Patch
"dianne marie schoenberg" <dia...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:9g8u1d$mmq$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >She`s a pet owner, sweetie, not a competition addict with a working dog.
>
> Y'know, Patch, just about everyone here that you just insulted
> with the phrase "competition addicts" started out as a pet owner.
Susan set the tone for my reply to her.
> For us, the availability of competition is a motivator to train our dogs
to a high level; in fact, it's probably the *best* motivator I've found to
get dog owners to start considering their dogs' psychology, to learn to
understand what drives them, and yes, to do things like pay attention to
the inflection of their voices, to practice footwork, to get up early in the
mornings and drive long distances to go herding or tracking or whatever.
I prefer people people to be motivated to learn these things when they first
decide on having a dog, regardless of what they might aspire to later on.
>
> So it's hard to understand exactly what you expect to accomplish
> by insulting and denegrating people who compete with their dogs.
I`m the one who gets denegrated and insulted because I`m not interested in
competitions with *my* dogs - unfortunately my reflexes get me to reply in
kind. Susans post to me was just yet more digging for the hell of it. My
reference to many people thinking taping the voice was too deep to bother
with was not aimed at her, or any one who competes, its is a simple fact -
many people, "Joe Public", would not think of trying it.
It was just too difficult for Susan to say "Yes Patch, it was a good
suggestion to the owner in question, - lots of people in competition do this
sort of thing, but I think you might be right that a lot of people generally
wouldnt think of it".
Being bitchy was an easier option for her, plain and simple.
Patch
Patch
"John F Richardson" <jfrc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010613213037...@ng-fv1.aol.com...
> I'm a pet owner and not a "competition
> addict". And I say: long live the "competition
> addicts" and their wonderful dogs! Just
> yesterday, Lora Bauer, an occasional
> poster in these parts, posted to the
> Pit/Staff lists a jpeg of the magazine
> cover of an Italian AmStaff journal
> which depicted her wonderful dog,
> Meme, on the fly in an agility competition.
> Anyone who can't grasp what wonders
> such positive coverage can do for maligned
> breeds are failing to grasp a LOT.
I would agree with you there.
>
> But even ignoring such modern
> mega-concerns as fighting breed
> prejudice, training dogs to excel
> at events they love is one of the
> best ways imaginable to encourage
> a dog to be truly engaged in his/her
> own life. Not a shabby goal, eh?
Nope - *so long as* the owners goals dont start to override the dogs
enjoyment in a detrimental way.
>
> I kinda prefer making my own
> merry mayhem, and my dogs
> haven't been complaining. But
> when you see a dog just loving
> the thrill of excelling at a more
> formal, more organized, more
> competitive sort of activity,
> how can you not smile?
I do as it goes. [ ref. my previous comment ].
Patch
Rocky
news:T0SV6.42998$Uo3.1...@news6.giganews.com:
> With assorted programs and such, about $50 here. Say about
> $100 if you have a large dog and an expensive vet.
Here, Rocky's neutering, a 40 pound dog and attended overnight
car, was CDN $150, a little over US $100.
A spay may be somewhat more, but nowhere near the $500 Helle
mentions.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
John F Richardson
:Nope - *so long as* the owners
:goals dont start to override the dogs
:enjoyment in a detrimental way.
If you really had the courage of
your convictions, you would recognize
how very, very unlikely it is that a
dog can be bullied into success, and
would look for examples of abusively
mistrained dogs among the dogs that
fail, not those that succeed.
Robin Nuttall
> >
> >Yep. 25 years ago, spay/neuter was *much* less common here. It
> >wouldn't take too long to change your POV if you had the sort of
> >problems we wound up facing.
> >
> >--Cindy
>
> I got my first dog 28 years ago. When I think of all of the things that would
> have gone much smoother if he had been neutered earlier, boy - life would have
> been better! He was a great dog in so many ways, but he had some definite
> focus problems due to raging hormones.
>
After our first dog had puppies (I was so little I don't even remember
her), Mom said no more! So from the early 1960s on, all our pets were
speutered--the first cat I remember I think I was 4 or 5, something like
that. So that was more than 35 years ago. I guess we were progressive.
:)
Susan Fraser
This is quite frequently the case with gun dogs. When one of my dogs is fixing
to retrieve something, isn't much going to distract her at all.
>>>>>> Point, set, match.
>>>>>What "point set and match" is there about a handler not bothering to work
out what will motivate the dog to comply instead of the dog ingnoring the
handler ?
>>>> Oh, i've worked out exactly what makes her comply. Hint: it's not sound.
>>>I`m talking about motivation Cindy, fun, not force.
>>So'm I, actually.
>Uhuh
Miss Scarlett with the Pipewrench in the Conservatory?
Karen J. Cravens
<hqRV6.448379$o9.72...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>:
>> Yeah, I had a bit in there early on about "especially ex-racers" but
>> then reworded and it went away.
>
>Like cindy moore's forced fetch page with all the screaming dogs in
>it?
No, not at all like that. What is this, a sound distraction?
>O.K. The man might not have got bitten if you bums weren't shocking
>the dog, like that little dog in "interested in hearing" and "1 step
>forward." That's two cases where the dogs had aggressive behavior
>because of shock fences, and one of them dogs is dead, and I've got
>a hundred bucks that says Cubbe ain't gonna be here come next April
>Fools' Day.
You bums? My parents' ex-neighbors post here? Who knew?
>She'd better use a new identity, because her name is Thug, around
>here.
Like as not I'll do that, when you get wise (so to speak) and reinstall
Windows or something. Don't trust any newbies. Heh.
>Yeah, like teaching people HOWE to train dogs without hurting them.
Naw, the AUK stuff is where you're not talking dog training, you're talking
Usenet abuse. Which is most of the time, like here.
>Oh, you find being exposed as a lying, dog abusing Thug amusing?
>I'll keep you laughing till I'm the only one still grinning, huh?
Being exposed? Nah, I'm just exposing where you're not really exposing
people.
>Tell me sumpthin. When your pal amy ties a Retriever Dog and throws
>a dummy beyond his reach, and beats the Retriever Dog with a stick
>to make him really dig in, let's say the dog snaps at his trainer
>for beating him? That IS predictable, when we beat a dog, isn't it?
Show me where Amy ties a retriever dog and throws a dummy beyond his reach.
--
Karen J. Cravens
Sequoia: Female GSD ex-stray parvo-survivor
Sadie: Female Greyhound ex-shelter-dumpee, no racing tattoos
Karen J. Cravens
<9g8r7g$m...@nntp.seflin.org>:
>This works very well for SIT and STAY, but not for COME.
Tie a rope to the stuffed and mounted dog. Give the command. Reel in the
dog. No problemo.
Patch
> In article <mQUV6.10075$9t5.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >Uhuh
>
> Sure, you're just taking the easy way out of lobbing insults in my
> direction
Its what you do to me Cindy.
rather than actually understand what having a highly
> motivated, hard working dog entails.
ROTFLOL
>
> Motivation is not the problem. I've got motivation up the wazoo.
> These are happy, hard working dogs. I do need control, since the
> dogs, in their enthusiam, try to do ten things at once.
Control doesnt translate as "force" to me.
>
> It's not a problem you have, so frankly, you should just not worry
> your little head about it.
I doubt you`ll ever know what its like to have a truly willing dog that
doesnt need to be forced. Its a shame you dont worry your little head about
that.
Patch
Patch
"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
> Miss Scarlett with the Pipewrench in the Conservatory?
>
Your previous post was warmer.
Patch
Patch
> In article <ZZUV6.10150$9t5.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> Who forces dogs to work around here?
> >
> >**Force** Fetch mean anything to you ?
>
> Guess you just skimmed the title of it and didn't actually read it.
> You know, the part about that it's a conditioned retrieve, and that
> the term force fetch is a misnomer.
Nah, I read it - threw up a couple of times but I got through it.
>
> But that's alright -- it would have required that you actually think.
Oh, I think plenty - like how can you sleep at night condoning the pinch
crap.
> I really don't expect that from you.
You want me to acknowledge and accept that pinch garbage as being ok ? Don't
hold your breath - oh and get a warm coat cos hell will have frozen over
first.
Patch
Patch
> Patch writes:
>
> :Nope - *so long as* the owners
> :goals dont start to override the dogs
> :enjoyment in a detrimental way.
>
> If you really had the courage of
> your convictions, you would recognize
> how very, very unlikely it is that a
> dog can be bullied into success, and
> would look for examples of abusively
> mistrained dogs among the dogs that
> fail, not those that succeed.
>
>
> JohnR
I was chatting about it to an agility instructor on Monday evening. He said
the sad thing is when owners get so OTT about winning, that their dogs
become like robots and lose their "spark" - he said he has seen it often at
high level competitions.
He also told me that he saw one woman beat her dog in the ring because it
made an error, she was *so* intense about winning.
That's the context I was referring to in this instance.
Hope that explains what I was trying to say.
Patch