Serious question
STAAMFA
"Craig S."
| Marty equated being exposed to the "disease" of alcoholism at AA meetings
| with contracting the AIDS virus, and I've also seen and suspected that
| long-term exposure to some of the ideas expressed in the fellowship can
lead
| to a self-fulfilling prophecy of "well, I had one so fuck it - I'm gonna
get
| wasted" type thinking and drinking, especially in younger members.
Really? I saw it in particular in the older members. Go figure.
|So I'm
| wondering why people would be more susceptible to the message of "gotta
| drink - it's a disease -
More susceptible? Jesus Craig the way you think... You think it in terms of
disease and it's just not so.
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| You're a good example of suggestibility right here,
suggestibility? Oh you mean like you put a lot of people in a rewm and they
talk about stuff, like say like alcohol, and they build on each others
stories and what not and before you know it everyone's singing the same "I
am diseased cause I damn sure don't want to accept responsibility for
inappropriate behavior with alcohol" tune?
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso
| > Then maybe part of my question is about
What you're asking questions and you don't what it is you're asking?
MORNING DEW
NG.
You my friend are truly in need of awakening, and I don't mean sweetly by a
leggy blond.
That is one really screwed up thought.
You see in Alcoholics Anonymous they deal with being powerless over alcohol.
Alanon deals with being powerless over the disease as it effects them.
ONLY in Narcotics Anonymous do we deal with the disease concept, only in NA
does it spell it
out in the literature. Your idea is right. As long as you don't think in
terms of NA you are OK.
Its only the alcohol you need to worry about in AA.
So you just take that back to the old AA clubhouse and tell 'em we told you
so.
jim
DrPostman
in accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us
of their wisdom with:
>You see in Alcoholics Anonymous they deal with being powerless over alcohol.
>Alanon deals with being powerless over the disease as it effects them.
People who live the spiritual principles behind the steps in ANY 12 step program
won't want to act out addictively. All 12 step programs deal with living life
without addictive behavior.
>ONLY in Narcotics Anonymous do we deal with the disease concept, only in NA
>does it spell it
>out in the literature.
Then explain why the Big Book says "our liquor was but a symptom".
Being a 2 by 4 is foolish. Are you addicted to NA?
--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: jamie_eckles(at)hotmail.com
"my head is blank."
- Ed Conrad finally gets honest
unjon harley
I am the resident <snip> to
--
Doo Doo"s mouth is running wide open again. Doo, Your not the
resident any thing on arna. Your a jonny come lately that has a big
braging mouth. Your post ( this thead) indicated you were some kind
of spokes man for this NG. Put the coffee down and back away. You
wouldn't make a pimple on a sokes persons ass.
jonB.
Steve N.
"john L." wrote:
>
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 02:43:37 GMT, "MORNING DEW"
> <morningd...@triad.rr.com> wrote the following on a page that was
> intentionally left blank:
>
> >You see in Alcoholics Anonymous they deal with being powerless over alcohol.
> >Alanon deals with being powerless over the disease as it effects them.
> >ONLY in Narcotics Anonymous do we deal with the disease concept, only in NA
> >does it spell it out in the literature.
>
> That's good jim. You're getting better. Only one word in that
> paragraph was all-caps. Good job using your "inside voice" when
> posting.
>
> So, when you are ready to start recognizing the similarities and not
> the differences, here's a little meditation you could try;
>
> Get comfortable,
> Put on some kind of crappy new-age type music,
> <Kitaro is my favorite, but you might prefer John Tesh>
> Close your eyes and go to that "quiet place",
> Chant the following three lines over and over again;
>
> "Oh-wah"
>
> "Ta-goo"
>
> "Siam"
>
> Now, as you get more and more comfortable with this chant,
> begin to slowly increase the speed/rhythm of your chanting.
>
> Before you know it, you will achieve self-awareness!
>
> HTH,
> john L.
>
> Know coffee, know peace
> No coffee, no peace
I'd suggest the mantra:
eye em
we todd
ed
Repeated aloud in the presence of one's adversaries.
Steve
F.H.
For effect wear an Elmer Fudd tee shirt.
Frank
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
|
| You work with developmentally disabled folks, don't you?
lol you a teacher Virt?
Bill D.
Shame on ya, Steve!!! You of all people should know that that should
be
eye em
divep
ment
awee
dis
abe
ode
---
_____________________
/ ___________________ \
/ / \ \
/ / ___ _ _ _ \ \
/ / | . >| || | | | \ \
/ / | . \| || |_ | |_ \ \
/ / |___/|_||___||___| \ \
/ / \ \
/ / \ \
/ / http://billybud.home.westpa.net \ \
`.`.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,','
`.`. ,','
`.`. Polygon. ,','
`.`. A dead parrot. ,','
`.`. ,','
`.`. ,','
`.`. ,','
`.`. ,','
`.`.','
`.'
Craig S.
news:IlDm9.3263$nh2....@news1.central.cox.net...
That isn't what I was saying or thinking. Whirl on.
MORNING DEW
> That isn't what I was saying or thinking. Whirl on.
>
We know that, just having some fun.
jim
MORNING DEW
wouldn't make a pimple on a sokes persons ass.
jonB.
How about on a spokespersons ass. jeeesh. jon you went to school when they
still cared about education.
jim
ps I know it's lame to flame about spelling but everyone has an exception.
un-jon is my un-exception
Craig S.
news:wIXm9.4836$bi2.1...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> >
> > That isn't what I was saying or thinking. Whirl on.
> >
>
>
> We know that, just having some fun.
Fun is good - important even. Why get straight just to become a big
sad-sack?
Gary
"DrPostman" <Loo...@mysig.formail> wrote in message
news:gfdnpu8l6vtgb7v9v...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 02:43:37 GMT, "MORNING DEW"
<morningd...@triad.rr.com>
> in accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only"
availed us
> of their wisdom with:
>
>
> >You see in Alcoholics Anonymous they deal with being powerless over
alcohol.
> >Alanon deals with being powerless over the disease as it effects them.
>
> People who live the spiritual principles behind the steps in ANY 12 step
program
> won't want to act out addictively. All 12 step programs deal with living
life
> without addictive behavior.
>
>
attendance at which is a rare event for me ). He spoke of living life by
spiritual principals, and never mentioned any substances. It was recovery,
and the steps......not any particular "program".
--
"It's all a bunch of tree-huggin hippie crap"- Eric Cartman
DrPostman
The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their wisdom
with:
>Can I have an Amen???? Best speaker I ever heard was in an AA meeting,(
>attendance at which is a rare event for me ). He spoke of living life by
>spiritual principals, and never mentioned any substances. It was recovery,
>and the steps......not any particular "program".
There are those who would claim that those principles are different than any
other program. When asked to be specific they usually shut up.
Gary
"DrPostman" <Loo...@mysig.formail> wrote in message
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:06:40 GMT, "Gary" <goin...@att.net> in accordance
with
> The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
wisdom
> with:
>
>
> >Can I have an Amen???? Best speaker I ever heard was in an AA meeting,(
> >attendance at which is a rare event for me ). He spoke of living life by
> >spiritual principals, and never mentioned any substances. It was
recovery,
> >and the steps......not any particular "program".
>
>
> There are those who would claim that those principles are different than
any
> other program. When asked to be specific they usually shut up.
>
>
Jim.
Richard II
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:52:38 -0700 (PDT), unjon...@webtv.net (unjon
harley) wrote in message
<1422-3D9...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net>:
yeah... but he amuses me...
and that's 80% of why I spend a large amount of my free time on Usenet...
--
just for today I'll do things differently
Richard II
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:06:40 GMT, "Gary" <goin...@att.net> wrote in message
<Q9Ym9.594$k_2....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
a lot of AA people in Cape Town have a quality spiritual program...
i gotta get me to one... still hanging around the periphery of NA Cape
Town... mebbe one day someone will invite me in...
not holding my breath...
Anne
all of "STAAMFA"'s. Sucks.
Anne
unjon harley
.
Why do I receive only half the posts from the people I enjoy reading,
and all of "STAAMFA"'s. Sucks.
Anne
/
STAAMFA is a cross posting sucker?
/
jonB
MORNING DEW
Fun is good - important even. Why get straight just to become a big
sad-sack?
I don't know but you could probably ask unJon, Gary, DrPostman,the Steves
and dOOd
jim
unjon harley
(MORNING DEW)
/
Doo, If your working getting "sraight" might be in the wrong NG.
/
jonB.
DrPostman
in accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us
of their wisdom with:
>
Is this because none of us consider AA bashing and Basic Text thumping to be
fun?
Come to Memphis for NA in May and find out what fun is, or even Nov 1st when
I DJ the Halloween dance.
Or take a peek at alt.fan.art-bell and watch me make the kooks dance. That's
fun!
unjon harley
.
"MORNING DEW" <morningd...@triad.rr.com> wrote in a mess
.
Fun is good - important even. Why get straight just to become a big
sad-sack?
I don't know but you could probably ask unJon, Gary, DrPostman,the
Steves and dOOd
jim
addicts with no program are funny when filled with resentment
--
/
Yup, Ole Mountain Doo Doo gives good comic relief for arna
MORNING DEW
jonB.
unjy you just make it too easy sometimes.
STAAMFA
"MORNING DEW"
|
| Fun is good - important even. Why get straight just to become a big
| sad-sack?
Yeah Tom what's the Point ;0)
| I don't know but you could probably ask unJon, Gary, DrPostman,the Steves
| and dOOd
You can ask Tom to, oh wait was that the list of good guys or sad sacks?
Blue Moon
same program, just 2 different fellowships.
Curiously, in fellowship terms, in my area many of those who walk into
NA with a problem end up going to AA for the solution. The opposite
doesn't seem to happen.
In AA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without booze.
As such, I spend very little of my time worrying about alcohol. My
problem is life.
--
Blue Moon
DrPostman
with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
wisdom with:
>The AA and NA programs of recovery are exactly the same. It's the
>same program, just 2 different fellowships.
Not really. The most important difference is identification. I couldn't
identify with all the talk in AA meetings focusing on alcohol. Alcohol
wasn't my favorite drug of choice. It was one of the drugs I used, just
not the main one.
The spiritual principles behind the steps are the same though.
BTW, my very first meeting was an AA meeting, I am very grateful
that they voted to change it to an open meeting. Otherwise they
would have asked me to leave for having the wrong drug of choice.
>Curiously, in fellowship terms, in my area many of those who walk into
>NA with a problem end up going to AA for the solution. The opposite
>doesn't seem to happen.
It does in my area. Often members of AA switch over to NA because
they find better identification there. Empathy is one of the most
important aspects of recovery, and they have found more in NA
than in AA. To each his own. There are over 200 12 Step programs
for a good reason and I believe it is God's doing. I try not to second
guess the wisdom of God. You probably don't hang out in NA meetings
so how can you be sure that the opposite doesn't happen? If people
want recovery they will eventually find it, no matter where they go.
>In AA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without booze.
>As such, I spend very little of my time worrying about alcohol. My
>problem is life.
In NA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without active
addiction, which we define as obsessive, compulsive behavior. 15
years down the road I spend no time at all worrying about any substance.
From day one I was taught that the drugs I used were just a symptom.
Blue Moon
<virtu...@innocent.com> wrote:
> In article <sfcspuk7ec4o501bm...@4ax.com>, Blue Moon
> <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>
> > The AA and NA programs of recovery are exactly the same. It's the
> > same program, just 2 different fellowships.
>
> No, they're apparently not exactly the same.
The only difference is in the first Step (defining the problem) and
the last Step (what group we try to "carry the message" to). The
recovery program itself is the same.
Not to be confused with declaring the fellowships as the same.
> > Curiously, in fellowship terms, in my area many of those who walk into
> > NA with a problem end up going to AA for the solution. The opposite
> > doesn't seem to happen.
>
> I've noticed that, too. Ever wonder why that might be, since you've had
> the impression that the programs are the same?
Yes, the fellowships are not the same.
> > In AA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without booze.
> > As such, I spend very little of my time worrying about alcohol. My
> > problem is life.
>
> Is whatever worked to relieve your worries about alcohol also good for
> relieving your worries about life?
In addressing life's problems with the simple on-going suggestions of
the recovery program and elsewhere, I'm no longer feeling the need, as
I once did, to escape from those problems and drink.
--
Blue Moon
Blue Moon
wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:39:19 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> in accordance
> with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
> wisdom with:
>
> >The AA and NA programs of recovery are exactly the same. It's the
> >same program, just 2 different fellowships.
>
> Not really. The most important difference is identification. I couldn't
> identify with all the talk in AA meetings focusing on alcohol. Alcohol
> wasn't my favorite drug of choice. It was one of the drugs I used, just
> not the main one.
I'd agree that the problems are different. But the program...the
solution...Steps 2 thru 11....are exactly the same.
Certainly it's necessary to understand the problem before solving that
problem, and that's where different fellowships and their different
literature come in.
> You probably don't hang out in NA meetings so how can you be sure that
> the opposite doesn't happen? If people want recovery they will
> eventually find it, no matter where they go.
I know a number of people who are in both fellowships. Maybe they're
all delusional ;)
> In NA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without active
> addiction, which we define as obsessive, compulsive behavior.
Is that really how NA defines it? I'm curious what the stance is on
tobacco smoking, as I understand this is as rife in NA as it is in AA.
This seems to me as being obsessive, compulsive behaviour.
--
Blue Moon
unjon harley
Group: alt.recovery.na Date: Fri, Oct 4, 2002, 7:32pm (PDT+7) From:
morningd...@triad.rr.com (MORNING DEW)
jonB.
.
unjy you just make it too easy sometimes. --
/
No one could fake being as stupid as you appear to be.
Richard II
message <phjspu8qq6il5q488...@4ax.com>:
>> In NA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without active
>> addiction, which we define as obsessive, compulsive behavior.
>Is that really how NA defines it? I'm curious what the stance is on
>tobacco smoking, as I understand this is as rife in NA as it is in AA.
>This seems to me as being obsessive, compulsive behaviour.
as far as I am concerned, anyone who smokes must keep far away from me...
i find the NA people pathetic when it comes to tobacco usage... they use it
as a crutch...
so many people smoke at NA that they encourage others to start smoking or
continue smoking (by their bad example)...
i strongly believe that people who smoke are using a narcotic and therefore
are not clean...
i do know one thing: their smoking habit damages my health... and it does
irritate me...
smoking in NA is a real hinderance for me taking their program seriously and
attending their meetings...
DrPostman
with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
wisdom with:
>On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:31:12 GMT, DrPostman <Loo...@mysig.formail>
>wrote:
>> In NA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without active
>> addiction, which we define as obsessive, compulsive behavior.
>
>Is that really how NA defines it? I'm curious what the stance is on
>tobacco smoking, as I understand this is as rife in NA as it is in AA.
>This seems to me as being obsessive, compulsive behaviour.
Well, there has got to be a few things left to nit pick about ;)
People don't get high off tobacco so NA doesn't address that,
nor does NA address the use of caffeine. The definition of
addiction comes from the Basic Text, chapter 8 "We Do Recover":
"Although "Politics makes strange bedfellows", as the old saying goes, addiction
makes us one of a kind. Our personal stories may vary in individual pattern but
in the end we all have the same thing in common. This common illness or disorder
is addiction. We know well the two things that make up true addiction: obsession
and compulsion. Obsession-that fixed idea that takes us back time and time again
to our particular drug or some substitute, to recapture the ease and comfort we
once knew.
Compulsion-once having started the process with one fix, one pill, or one drink
we cannot stop through our own power of will. Because of our physical
sensitivity to drugs, we are completely in the grip of a destructive power
greater than ourselves."
Sorry for the long quote, but those two paragraphs were what drew me
to NA. I am also grateful for the public trend against tobacco use in
public. I don't attend smoking meetings, and since I got clean the number
of them has dwindled to only a couple in my area. I have sponsored guys
who quit smoking, and the steps helped them do this, so the approach
will work in any area of my life where addiction makes my life unmanageable.
Craig S.
> As such, I spend very little of my time worrying about alcohol. My
> problem is life.
I don't spent much time worrying about anything. Funny, though - I don't
believe I have ever really viewed life as being a problem. Be tough to get
by without it.
Craig S.
news:041020021947175346%virtu...@innocent.com...
> In article <1sispukdui0b1uuim...@4ax.com>, Blue Moon
> <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
> > Yes, the fellowships are not the same.
>
> How so, do you find?
More professional tattoos in NA. More jailhouse tattoos in AA. More facial
piercings in NA. More foul language in NA. More long-timers in AA. More
hugging in NA. More chanting along and unofficial audience participation
during opening readings in NA.
Craig S.
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:31:12 GMT, DrPostman <Loo...@mysig.formail>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:39:19 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> in
accordance
> > with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their
> > wisdom with:
> >
> > >The AA and NA programs of recovery are exactly the same. It's the
> > >same program, just 2 different fellowships.
> >
> > Not really. The most important difference is identification. I
couldn't
> > identify with all the talk in AA meetings focusing on alcohol. Alcohol
> > wasn't my favorite drug of choice. It was one of the drugs I used, just
> > not the main one.
>
> I'd agree that the problems are different. But the program...the
> solution...Steps 2 thru 11....are exactly the same.
While the wording of the steps are the same, I view the shape of the program
as being largely formed by the supporting text.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:39:19 +0100, Blue Moon <mf...@clara.net> in accordance
>with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
>wisdom with:
>
>>The AA and NA programs of recovery are exactly the same. It's the
>>same program, just 2 different fellowships.
>
>Not really. The most important difference is identification. I couldn't
>identify with all the talk in AA meetings focusing on alcohol. Alcohol
>wasn't my favorite drug of choice. It was one of the drugs I used, just
>not the main one.
I can well understand why you feel that way. I objected once, while in
group therapy for manic-depression, that the medical staff at the
hospital had placed several eating disorder patients in with us. "I
can't relate to all that", I complained to my advisor, "why are they
in our group?"
It was true that the outward signs of our afflictions were very
different, but it I think I saw the wisdom of the hospital's approach
after I'd been there a few weeks. After listening to many hours of
their problems with life and with themselves, they didn't seem so
different from mine or from those my fellow manic-depressives had.
Perhaps this story is off-topic, but my limited experience with heroin
addicts showed me much the same. I know I could have taken the heroin
route almost as easily as I took the alcohol route, and it'd have been
for many of the exact same reasons, I'm pretty sure.
>The spiritual principles behind the steps are the same though.
>
>BTW, my very first meeting was an AA meeting, I am very grateful
>that they voted to change it to an open meeting. Otherwise they
>would have asked me to leave for having the wrong drug of choice.
There you go. We don't get many hard drug addicts in the AA group in
my small town, but our meeting is the only game in town, and I reckon
it's a good thing the AAers don't discriminate.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
>On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:31:12 GMT, DrPostman <Loo...@mysig.formail>
>wrote:
>> In NA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without active
>> addiction, which we define as obsessive, compulsive behavior.
>
>Is that really how NA defines it? I'm curious what the stance is on
>tobacco smoking, as I understand this is as rife in NA as it is in AA.
>This seems to me as being obsessive, compulsive behaviour.
Is an addiction, whether it be to hard drugs, alcohol, or tobacco, a
type of behavior? I think of an obsessive compulsion as requiring, for
example, that the labels on all the tins in one's larder face directly
out. An addiction is different, somehow. I could be cured, if
fortunate, of certain odd behavioral patterns, but I'll always be
addicted to caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine. If nicotine harms me now,
by shortening my life, alcohol did a hundred times the damage, by
nearly ruining it.
Charles Riggs
Blue Moon
<virtu...@innocent.com> wrote:
> That's not exactly the same, then. In fact, just what "the problem" is
> could be pretty key, indeed, including whether one moves on from that
> first step to any further ones. In terms of a program.
Have you worked the Steps? If you had, I struggle to understand how
you believe the recovery program is not the same.
> > Yes, the fellowships are not the same.
>
> How so, do you find?
For a start no NA meeting appears on an AA meeting list, and the
element of identification would necessarily be different.
> > > > In AA all we need to worry about is how to handle life without booze.
> > > > As such, I spend very little of my time worrying about alcohol. My
> > > > problem is life.
> > >
> > > Is whatever worked to relieve your worries about alcohol also good for
> > > relieving your worries about life?
> >
> > In addressing life's problems with the simple on-going suggestions of
> > the recovery program and elsewhere, I'm no longer feeling the need, as
> > I once did, to escape from those problems and drink.
>
> You already disclaimed worry about the drinking. How about the worry
> about those other problems?
There's no need to drink on, or otherwise escape from, those problems.
Anyone who claims life is stress- and trouble-free is living in
laa-laa land whether they think they're working a program or not.
--
Blue Moon
MORNING DEW
> More professional tattoos in NA.
Because most professional tattoo artists wind up in NA
More jailhouse tattoos in AA.
The day of the vanilla bean alcoholic is OVER
and fortunately, due to the progress of time, so are the people who lie
about
'well I was there with Bill'
More facial piercings in NA.
You got that one right.
More foul language in NA.
Bullshit. We're just lazy, we use cursing for adjectives
More long-timers in AA.
Been to California?? And NY, and Chicago, and Detroit and....every other
decent sized town.
More hugging in NA.
Yes, because I can't help you if you have a wall from here to here.(hand to
heart)
More chanting along and unofficial audience participation during opening
readings in NA.
Ooooph oooph oooph
Blue Moon
wrote:
> People don't get high off tobacco so NA doesn't address that,
Hmm. Today I read a scientific study which indicated recovering
alcoholics get a greater "reward" from a nicotine hit, thus indicating
some link between heavy smoking and heavy drinking. Over 70% of
alcoholics are classified as "heavy smokers", smoking at least a pack
a day. This is way above the average.
The study then goes on to suggest more efforts should be applied to
combating smoking than to combating alcoholism, as a smoking alcoholic
is more likely to die of a smoking-related disease first. Personally,
I suspect this suggestion disregards the mental effect alcohol has on
those living drunk.
But, whatever floats your boat is fine. If you can recover from a
problem in NA it doesn't really matter if those not recovering in NA
understand it or not.
--
Blue Moon
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their wisdom with:
>"Virtualoso" <virtu...@innocent.com> wrote in message
Vive la difference!
DrPostman
with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of their
wisdom with:
>On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 08:29:20 GMT, DrPostman <Loo...@mysig.formail>
>wrote:
>
>> People don't get high off tobacco so NA doesn't address that,
>
>Hmm. Today I read a scientific study which indicated recovering
>alcoholics get a greater "reward" from a nicotine hit, thus indicating
>some link between heavy smoking and heavy drinking. Over 70% of
>alcoholics are classified as "heavy smokers", smoking at least a pack
>a day. This is way above the average.
>
>The study then goes on to suggest more efforts should be applied to
>combating smoking than to combating alcoholism, as a smoking alcoholic
>is more likely to die of a smoking-related disease first. Personally,
>I suspect this suggestion disregards the mental effect alcohol has on
>those living drunk.
I see it as a substitution problem. My first 3 years were wrapped up in all
sorts of substitutions like computer games, women, food, and lots and lots
of science fiction novels. I bet if we asked most people who get into recovery
who smoke if their smoking increased after starting a 12 step program they
would all agree.
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their wisdom with:
>"Blue Moon" <mf...@clara.net> wrote in message
Subscribe!
Kev
> In article <hsqtpuo7c9ak22ivv...@4ax.com>, Blue Moon
> <mf...@clara.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 08:29:20 GMT, DrPostman <Loo...@mysig.formail>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > People don't get high off tobacco so NA doesn't address that,
> >
> > Hmm. Today I read a scientific study which indicated recovering
> > alcoholics get a greater "reward" from a nicotine hit, thus indicating
> > some link between heavy smoking and heavy drinking. Over 70% of
> > alcoholics are classified as "heavy smokers", smoking at least a pack
> > a day. This is way above the average.
> >
> > The study then goes on to suggest more efforts should be applied to
> > combating smoking than to combating alcoholism, as a smoking alcoholic
> > is more likely to die of a smoking-related disease first. Personally,
> > I suspect this suggestion disregards the mental effect alcohol has on
> > those living drunk.
>
> drove drunk. But at least I could generally keep the car in reasonable
> control, tended to obey traffic laws better, and remembered both how I
> got there and where the car was. Also didn't need to check all around
> it to be sure there weren't signs of accidents that I'd been unaware
> of.
>
> I did burn the upholstery a couple of times, though.
I still smoke and only learnt to drive a couple of years ago. But absolutely
cannot smoke and drive. I end up with ash all down my shirt and burnt lips.
Maybe, I'm just too uncoordinated to do two things at once.
Kev
F.H.
Got a cell phone?
Frank
Steve N.
Virtualoso wrote:
>
>
> Part of what really had me baffled was how different my experience with
> alcohol was than had been my experience with drugs.
NEWSFLASH:
Alcohol is a drug
Tommy
"Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
> Alcohol is a drug
'Zounds' - if that be so, then why does everyone who takes the drug
'alcohol' not become addicted to it.
Nicotine is a drug, yes, take it and you're addicted!
Alcohol - a drug - well, must be time for the na beer thread.
I on a personal level believe that if a drug addict takes alcohol then it
acts as a drug to him/her.
To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a relaxant,
a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
Cheers
Tommy
Kev
"Tommy" <Tomlep...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:annk92$fhuvj$1...@ID-49277.news.dfncis.de...
become addicted. They are not addicts.
Kev
Tommy
"Kev" <
> "Tommy" >
> "Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
> > > Alcohol is a drug
> >
> > 'Zounds' - if that be so, then why does everyone who takes the drug
> > 'alcohol' not become addicted to it.
> > Nicotine is a drug, yes, take it and you're addicted!
> > Alcohol - a drug - well, must be time for the na beer thread.
> >
> > I on a personal level believe that if a drug addict takes alcohol then
it
> > acts as a drug to him/her.
> > To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a
> relaxant,
> > a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
> > Cheers
> > Tommy
> >
> >
> For the same reason that not everyone who takes heroin or cocaine do not
> become addicted. They are not addicts.
>
> Kev
Strawman alert !!!!
Heroin and Cocaine are DRUGS.
Tommy
PS, One way or the other, I'm not that pushed about definitions.
I can only give my honest opinion. Some would say " based on what", To
which I'd reply " based on my knowlege, experience and understanding"
Ce sera sera
Tommy
Blue Moon
<Tomlep...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Nicotine is a drug, yes, take it and you're addicted!
Really? I took it daily for a few years and was able to get off it
quite easily. Alcohol was a completely different ball-game.
--
Blue Moon
Steve N.
...But apparantly not based on fact.
Actions of a drug:
Administration
Absorbtion
Biotransformation
Elimination
Specific actions of the drug 'alcohol':
Alcohol is a central nervous system depressant- it slows down the bodys
functions and its effects are similar to those of a general anesthetic. More
technically...
All brain functions are communications among nerve cells in the brain. The
places where nerves cells join generally have microscopic gaps called synapses.
Communications between nerve cells across these gaps is done by chemicals called
neurotransmitters. After these chemicals cross the gaps they activate the
receiving nerve cell at a site specific to the type of chemical that crossed the
gap. Activation causes a change in the receiving nerve cell. This change may
increase or decrease in the nerve cell's responsiveness to more activation. The
process of converting messages from one nerve cell into changes within another
nerve cell is called signal transduction. Alcohol may produce some of its
effects by interfering with signal transduction. The brain's long-lasting
adaptations to alcohol may be, in part, due to changes in gene function. Genes
direct the making of proteins. By influencing gene function, alcohol may alter
the structure and function of specific sites on the nerve cell that have roles
in intoxication, reinforcement, and physical dependence. Alcohol's effects on
genes may also alter proteins involved in signal transduction.
The Metabolic Process:
When alcohol is consumed, it passes from the stomach and intestines into the
blood, a process referred to as absorption. Alcohol is then metabolized by
enzymes, which are body chemicals that break down other chemicals. In the liver,
an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) mediates the conversion of alcohol
to acetaldehyde.
Acetaldehyde is rapidly converted to acetate by other enzymes and is eventually
metabolized to carbon dioxide and water. Alcohol also is metabolized in the
liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may be increased after
chronic drinking (3). Most of the alcohol consumed is metabolized in the liver,
but the small quantity that remains unmetabolized permits alcohol concentration
to be measured in breath and urine.
The liver can metabolize only a certain amount of alcohol per hour, regardless
of the amount that has been consumed. The rate of alcohol metabolism depends, in
part, on the amount of metabolizing enzymes in the liver, which varies among
individuals and appears to have genetic determinants (1,4). In general, after
the consumption of one standard drink, the amount of alcohol in the drinker's
blood (blood alcohol concentration, or BAC) peaks within 30 to 45 minutes. (A
standard drink is defined as 12 ounces of beer, 5 ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces
of 80-proof distilled spirits, all of which contain the same amount of alcohol.)
The BAC curve, shown on the previous page, provides an estimate of the time
needed to absorb and metabolize different amounts of alcohol (5). Alcohol is
metabolized more slowly than it is absorbed. Since
the metabolism of alcohol is slow, consumption needs to be controlled to prevent
accumulation in the body and intoxication.
Factors Influencing Alcohol Absorption and Metabolism
Food. A number of factors influence the absorption process, including the
presence of food and the type of food in the gastrointestinal tract when alcohol
is consumed (2,6). The rate at which alcohol is absorbed depends on how quickly
the stomach empties its contents into the intestine. The higher the dietary fat
content, the more time this emptying will require and the longer the process of
absorption will take. One study found that subjects who drank alcohol after a
meal that included fat, protein, and carbohydrates absorbed the alcohol about
three times more slowly than when they consumed alcohol on an empty stomach (7).
Gender. Women absorb and metabolize alcohol differently from men. They have
higher BAC's after consuming the same amount of alcohol as men and are more
susceptible to alcoholic liver disease, heart muscle damage (8), and brain
damage (9). The difference in BAC's between women and men has been attributed to
women's smaller amount of body water, likened to dropping the same amount of
alcohol into a smaller pail of water (10). An additional factor contributing to
the difference in BAC's may be that women have lower activity of the alcohol
metabolizing enzyme ADH in the stomach, causing a larger proportion of the
ingested alcohol to reach the blood. The combination of these factors may render
women more vulnerable than men to alcohol-induced liver and heart damage
(11-16).
Effects of Alcohol Metabolism
Body Weight. Although alcohol has a relatively high caloric value, 7.1 Calories
per gram (as a point of reference, 1 gram of carbohydrate contains 4.5 Calories,
and 1 gram of fat contains 9 Calories), alcohol consumption does not necessarily
result in increased body weight. An analysis of data collected from the first
National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES I) found that although
drinkers had significantly higher intakes of total calories than nondrinkers,
drinkers were not more obese than nondrinkers. In fact, women drinkers had
significantly lower body weight than nondrinkers. As alcohol intake among men
increased, their body weight decreased (17). An analysis of data from the second
National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES II) and other large
national studies found similar results for women (18), although the relationship
between drinking and body weight for men is inconsistent. Although moderate
doses of alcohol added to the diets of lean men and women do not seem to lead to
weight gain, some studies have reported weight gain when alcohol is added to the
diets of overweight persons (19,20).
When chronic heavy drinkers substitute alcohol for carbohydrates in their diets,
they lose weight and weigh less than their nondrinking counterparts (21,22).
Furthermore, when chronic heavy drinkers add alcohol to an otherwise normal
diet, they do not gain weight (21).
Sex Hormones. Alcohol metabolism alters the balance of reproductive hormones in
men and women (23-28). In men, alcohol metabolism contributes to testicular
injury and impairs testosterone synthesis and sperm production (24,29). In a
study of normal healthy men who received 220 grams of alcohol daily for 4 weeks,
testosterone levels declined after only 5 days and continued to fall throughout
the study period (30,31). Prolonged testosterone deficiency may contribute to
feminization in males, for example, breast enlargement (32). In addition,
alcohol may interfere with normal sperm structure and movement by inhibiting the
metabolism of vitamin A, which is essential for sperm development (30,33). In
women, alcohol metabolism may contribute to increased production of a form of
estrogen called estradiol (which contributes
to increased bone density and reduced risk of coronary artery disease) and to
decreased estradiol metabolism, resulting in elevated estradiol levels (28). One
research review indicates that estradiol levels increased in premenopausal women
who consumed slightly more than enough alcohol to reach the legal limit of
alcohol (BAC of 0.10 percent) acutely (28). A study of the effect of alcohol on
estradiol levels in postmenopausal women found that in women wearing estradiol
skin patches, acute alcohol consumption significantly elevated estradiol levels
over the short term (34).
Medications. Chronic heavy drinking appears to activate the enzyme CYP2E1, which
may be responsible for transforming the over-the-counter pain reliever
acetaminophen (TylenolTM) and many others) into chemicals that can cause liver
damage, even when acetaminophen is taken in standard therapeutic doses
(3,35,36). A review of studies of liver damage resulting from
acetaminophen-alcohol interaction reported that in alcoholics, these effects may
occur with as little as 2.6 grams of acetaminophen (four to five
"extra-strength" pills) taken over the course of the day in persons consuming
varying amounts of alcohol (35,37). The damage caused by alcohol-acetaminophen
interaction is more likely to occur when acetaminophen is taken after, rather
than before, the alcohol has been metabolized. Alcohol consumption affects the
metabolism of a wide variety of other medications, increasing the activity of
some and diminishing the activity, thereby decreasing the effectiveness, of
others
(35).
Alcohol Metabolism--A Commentary by
NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D.
The study of metabolism has both practical and broader scientific implications.
On the practical side, information on how the body metabolizes alcohol permits
us to calculate, for example, what our blood alcohol concentration (BAC) is
likely to be after drinking, including the impact of food and gender differences
in the rate of alcohol metabolism on BAC. This information, of course, is
important when participating in activities for which concentration is needed,
such as driving or operating
dangerous machinery.
With respect to its broader scientific application, metabolism, which has long
been studied, is emerging with new implications for the study of alcoholism and
its medical consequences. For instance, how is metabolism related to the
resistance of some individuals to alcoholism? We know that some inherited
abnormalities in metabolism (e.g., flushing reaction among some persons of Asian
descent) promote resistance to alcoholism. Recent data from two large-scale
NIAAA-supported genetics studies suggest that alcohol dehydrogenase genes may be
associated with differential resistance and vulnerability to alcohol. These
findings are important to the study of why some people develop alcoholism and
others do not. Studies of metabolism also can identify alternate paths of
alcohol metabolism, which may help explain how alcohol speeds up the elimination
of some substances (e.g., barbiturates) and increases the toxicity of others
(e.g., acetaminophen). This information will help health care providers in
advising patients on alcohol-drug interactions that may decrease the
effectiveness of some therapeutic medications or render others harmful.
References
(1) Bosron, W.F.; Ehrig, T.; & Li,T.-K. Genetic factors in alcohol metabolism
and alcoholism. Seminars in Liver Disease 13(2):126-135, 1993. (2) Wallgren, H.
Absorption, diffusion,
distribution and elimination of ethanol: Effect on biological membranes. In:
International Encyclopedia of Pharmacology and Therapeutics. Vol.1. Oxford:
Pergamon, 1970. pp. 161-188.
(3) Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist
4(2):127-139, 1994. (4) Benet, L.Z.; Kroetz, D.L.; & Sheiner, L.B.
Pharmacokinetics: The dynamics of drug absorption, distribution, and
elimination. In: Molinoff, P.B., & Ruddon, R.W., eds. Goodman and Gillman's The
Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics. 9th ed. New York: McGraw-Hill,
1996. pp. 3-27. (5) Widmark, E.M.P. Die theoretischen Grundlagen und die
praktische Verwendbarkeit der gerichtlich-medizinischen Alkoholbestimmung.
Berlin: Urban and Schwarzenberg, 1932. (6) Fraser, A.G.; Rosalki, S.B.; Gamble,
G.D.; & Pounder, R.E. Inter-individual and intra-individual variability of
ethanol concentration-time profiles: Comparison of ethanol ingestion before or
after an evening meal. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 40:387-392,
1995. (7) Jones, A.W., & Jönsson, K.A. Food-induced lowering of blood-ethanol
profiles and increased rate of elimination immediately after a meal. Journal of
Forensic Sciences 39(4):1084-1093, 1994. (8) Urbano-Márquez, A.; Estruch, R.;
Fernández-Solá, J.; Nicolás, J.M.; Paré, J.C.; & Rubin, E. The greater risk of
alcoholic cardiomyopathy and myopathy in women compared with men. JAMA
274(2):149-154, 1995. (9) Nixon, S.J. Cognitive deficits in alcoholic women.
Alcohol Health & Research World 18(3):228-232, 1994. (10) National Institute on
Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Alcohol Alert: Alcohol and Women. No. 10, PH 290.
Bethesda, MD: the Institute, 1990. (11) Frezza, M.; Di Padova, C.; Pozzato, G.;
Terpin, M.; Baroana, E.; & Lieber, C.S. High blood alcohol levels in women: The
role of decreased gastric alcohol dehydrogenase activity and first-pass
metabolism. The New England Journal of Medicine 322(2):95-99, 1990. (12) Ashley,
M.J.; Olin, J.S.; Le Riche, W.H.; Kornaczewski, A.; Schmidt, W.; & Rankin, J.G.
Morbidity in alcoholics: Evidence for accelerated development of physical
disease in women. Archives of Internal Medicine 137:883-887, 1977. (13) Krasner,
N.; Davis, M.; Portmann, B.; & Williams, R. Changing pattern of alcoholic liver
disease in Great Britain: Relation to sex and signs of autoimmunity. British
Medical Journal 1:1497-500, 1977. (14) Morgan, M.Y., & Sherlock, S. Sex-related
differences among 100 patients with alcoholic liver disease. British Medical
Journal 1:939-941, 1977. (15) Saunders, J.B.; Davis, M.; & Williams, R. Do women
develop alcoholic liver disease more readily than men? British Medical Journal
282:1140-1143, 1981. (16) Norton, R.; Batey, R.; Dwyer, T.; & MacMahon, S.
Alcohol consumption and the risk of alcohol related cirrhosis in women. British
Medical Journal 295:80-82, 1987. (17) Gruchow, H.W.; Sobocinski, K.A.;
Barboriak, J.J.; & Scheller, J.G.
Alcohol consumption, nutrient intake and relative body weight among U.S. adults.
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 42:289-295, 1985. (18) Colditz, G.A.;
Giovannucci, E.; Rimm, E.B.; Stampfer, M.J.; Rosner, B.; Speizer, F.E.; Gordis,
E.; & Willett, W.C. Alcohol intake in relation to diet and obesity in women and
men. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 54:49-55, 1991. (19) Clevidence,
B.A.; Taylor, P.R.; Campbell, W.S.; & Judd, J.T. Lean and heavy women may not
use energy from alcohol with equal efficiency. Journal of Nutrition
125(10):2536-2540, 1995. (20) Crouse, J.R., & Grundy, S.M. Effects of alcohol on
plasma lipoproteins and cholesterol and triglyceride metabolism in man. Journal
of Lipid Research 25:486-496, 1984. (21) Lieber, C.S. Perspectives: Do alcohol
calories count? American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 54:976-982, 1991. (22)
Reinus, J.F.; Heymsfield, S.B.; Wiskind, R.; Casper, K.; & Galambos, J.T.
Ethanol: Relative fuel value and metabolic effects in vivo. Metabolism
38(2):125-135, 1989. (23) Andersson, S.; Cronholm, T.; & Sjövall, J. Redox
effects of ethanol on steroid metabolism. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental
Research 10(6)(Suppl): 55S-63S, 1986. (24) Wright, H.I.; Gavaler, J.S.; & Van
Thiel, D. Effects of alcohol on the male reproductive system. Alcohol Health &
Research World 15(2):110-114, 1991. (25) Cicero, T.J., & Bell, R.D. Effects of
ethanol and acetaldehyde on the biosynthesis of testosterone in the rodent
testes. Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications 94(3):814-819, 1980.
(26) Johnston, D.E.; Chiao, Y.B.; Gavaler, J.S.; & Van Thiel, D.H. Inhibition of
testosterone synthesis by ethanol and acetaldehyde. Biochemical Pharmacology
30(13):1827-1830, 1981. (27) Chiao, Y.B., & Van Thiel, D.H. Biochemical
mechanisms that contribute to
alcohol-induced hypogonadism in the male. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental
Research 7(2):131-134, 1983. (28) Mello, N.K.; Mendelson, J.H.; & Teoh, S.K. An
overview of the effects of alcohol on neuroendocrine function in women. In:
Zakhari, S., ed. Alcohol and the Endocrine System. National Institute on Alcohol
Abuse and Alcoholism Research Monograph No. 23. NIH Publication No. 93-3533.
Bethesda, MD: the Institute, 1993. pp. 139-169. (29) Van Thiel, D.H.; Gavaler,
J.; & Lester, R. Ethanol inhibition of vitamin A metabolism
in the testes: Possible mechanism for sterility in alcoholics. Science
186(4167):941-942, 1974. (30) National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and
Alcoholism. Alcohol Alert: Alcohol and Hormones. No. 26, PH 352. Bethesda, MD:
the Institute, 1994. (31) Gordon, G.G.; Altman, K.; Southren, A.L.; Rubin, E.; &
Lieber, C.S. Effect of alcohol (ethanol) administration on sex-hormone
metabolism in normal men. The New England Journal of Medicine 295(15):793-797,
1976. (32) Bannister, P., & Lowosky, M.S. Ethanol and hypogonadism. Alcohol &
Alcoholism 22(3):213-217, 1987. (33) Leo, M.A., & Lieber, C.S. Hepatic vitamin A
depletion in alcoholic liver injury. The New England Journal of Medicine
307(10):597-601, 1982. (34) Ginsburg, E.S.; Walsh, B.W.; Shea, B.F.; Gao, X.;
Gleason, R.E.; & Barbieri, R.L. The effects of ethanol on the clearance of
estradiol in postmenopausal women. Fertility and Sterility 63(6):1227-1230,
1995. (35) National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Alcohol Alert:
Alcohol-Medication Interactions. No. 27, PH 355. Bethesda, MD: the Institute,
1995. (36) Black, M. Acetaminophen hepatotoxicity. Annual Review of Medicine
35:577-593, 1984. (37) Seeff, L.B.; Cuccherini, B.A.; Zimmerman, H.J.; Adler,
E.; & Benjamin, S.B. Acetaminophen hepatotoxicity in alcoholics: A therapeutic
misadventure. Annals of Internal Medicine 104(3):399-404, 1986.
The short version:
Alcohol is a drug.
Steve
Tommy
"Steve N." >
> Tommy wrote:
> The short version:
> Alcohol is a drug.
> Steve
In your opinion, that's fine.
In real life, some people drink alcohol, by your reckoning, substantiated by
the facts you cared to consider, anyone who uses alcohol is a drug addict.
Ce sera sera.
Me I'm a plain old alcoholic of the complicated type.
Drugs were never my problem.
|Therefore I'm not a drug addict - works for me :-)
Now about this sheep drinking NA beer, while smoking MJ :-|
Cheers
Tommy
Steve N.
No, Tommy, not "my opinion"; medical, scientific fact.
No, not everyone who uses it is a an addict by any stretch. Those who are
addicted would, however, be addicted to a drug. Not everyone who has a problem
with any particular drug may necessarily be physically addicted either, nor does
everyone (the majority) even have a 'problem' of any kind given the ability to
consume that particular substance in a controlled manner.
Whether the term 'drug addict' is so stereotyped in some minds that it could
only conjure the spectre of deraved zombies in shooting galleries, or coked-out
lounge lizards, or street-weary crackheads.... oh well. Guess some folks can
only visualize gutter bums when they hear the term "alcoholic' too... funny how
people get so hung up on misconceptions like that.
But am also sorry that the terrible stigma of being a 'drug addict' is too much
for some to bear - matter of fact that was not even my concern or assertion.
It's entirely your own call as to what kind, or whether you are any variety of
addict, Tommy - as it is for anyone.
But that doesn't alter the reality that the CNS depressant called 'alcohol' is
in fact, a drug.
As for the sheep, I'm sure it's only smoking m-a-a-a-rijuana, because it can't
get a buzz on the low octane brewski.
Steve
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their wisdom with:
>
>"Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
>> Alcohol is a drug
>
>'Zounds' - if that be so, then why does everyone who takes the drug
>'alcohol' not become addicted to it.
Do you actually believe that every drug causes addiction?
It isn't the substance, it is the person.
>To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a relaxant,
>a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
Just like smoking a joint.
No problem unless you give it to an addict.
Steve N.
Tommy wrote:
>
> "Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
> > Alcohol is a drug
8<
> To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a relaxant,
> a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
OIC - it's actually some separate class of 'substance' used for various effects
that somehow modify people's cognitive, fuctional and/or emotional states...
sort of like, well, drugs do.
ummm hmmm
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| > For the same reason that not everyone who takes heroin or cocaine do not
| > become addicted. They are not addicts.
|
| Either are all alcoholics, necessarily.
lol so it's possible to be an alcoholic without being addicted to alcohol.
Sure you're not mixing your tenses again Virt?
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| So's nicotene. So are brain chemicals.
Are you saying you're high right now virt? lol
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| > Nicotine is a drug, yes, take it and you're addicted!
|
| That stuff got me.
Rather you got it. Stand up and take responsibility for your behaviors
virt.
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| According to the knowledge, experience and understanding of some other
| folks.
Which folks would those be Virt?
|No doubt their honest opinion of a useful terminology and
| definition, too, in fact.
Too as in definition was too something? Too useful perhaps?
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| You must really get
| around.
round round get around they get around? That type of getting around virt?
Or the other kind that's used when you're discussing a particularly loose
set of individuals in mixed company?
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| I don't know anyone, or would that be everyone?
It's your book Virt you tell us.
|But stress or worry,
| free of worry about alcohol, can often be eased even if not entirely
| eradicated.
|And, sure, whether working a program or not.
exactly, and seems more do so without any specific program.
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| I did burn the upholstery a couple of times, though.
Well there you have it Virt. YOU WERE POWERLESS OVER YOUR SMOKES!!!!!!
ADMIT IT!
ADMIT IT!
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| Part of what really had me baffled was how different my experience with
| alcohol was than had been my experience with drugs.
You were a moderate drinking so I would imagine that it could very well be
quite different where your behaviors took you in regards to drugs vice
alcohol.
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| Not me. For instance, just going to work regularly seriously reduced my
| time smoking.
hmm so your behavior with smoking was modified by another series of
behaviors... interesting.
Steve N.
"Steve N." wrote:
> people's cognitive, fuctional and/or...
um, *oops!*... That would be 'fuNctional', I believe...
Steve
Tommy
"DrPostman" <> >"Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
> >> Alcohol is a drug
> >
> >'Zounds' - if that be so, then why does everyone who takes the drug
> >'alcohol' not become addicted to it.
>
> Do you actually believe that every drug causes addiction?
>
> It isn't the substance, it is the person.
>
>
> >To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a
relaxant,
> >a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
>
> Just like smoking a joint.
>
> No problem unless you give it to an addict.
I don't believe it enough to state anything categorically.
Like Steve says in a previous post, we tend to issue labels left right and
centre.
Many a person who is not 'addictive by nature' (another one I don't
subscribe to), ends up in dire straits because of issues with medically
prescribed drugs, (valium librium, etc).
If people could be easily labelled 'addicts', a phrase thrown around like
confetti, surely by now, our great experts could come up with a percentile
profile to identify those at risk. Nahh - the plain facts are, you become
an 'addict' after the facts.
I suggest a deep study of the Doctors Opinion, and a disciplined read of the
Scientology's brief (Narcanon), will open minds, that's what I'm about
anyway, having an open mind, being prepared to be 'wrong'.
I suppose you could say I'm among the 'don't knows' - thats okay though, I
appear to be in great company
Chees
Tommy
Tommy
"Steve N." <...
Prezactly, and to the general public that is not a problem. There are
probably people who could take valium once in their life for a week or ten
days to get over some 'problem'. Then there are those who would find their
life unliveable, after even 2 days on it.
Thing is, nobody knows 'who' those people are.
I don't know enough to say whether "I know or not"
And they could just as easy be non-alcoholics. It is not a profile that is
predictable.
And every 'alcoholic' is not an 'addict', leastways some I've met, including
myself.
Incidentally I take drugs, supposing you consider albumen supplements as a
drug, and I occasionally have to take anti-depressants - thankfully not as
episodic as say 5 yrs ago. I had chemo 3 times, over 2 1/2 yrs, can't say
about the addictive side of it, I wallowed in the pity and the sympathy
though. And I ran like hell from suggestions that I take a light course of
librium, when I last detoxed. Hell or high water, I believed the old stone
that a drug is a drug is a drug. I don't today is all I'm saying, I'd
willingly follow Drs orders, armed with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic
and not an addict. Cherrist, I'm damn near perfect enough as it stands :-))
Cheers
Tommy
I wouldn't have noticed unless you pointed it out :-)
Henry Cotter
>addicts with no program are funny when filled
> with resentment
As opposed to addicts *with* a "program" filled with resentment?
--
Shalom,
Henry Cotter
http://www.masada2000.org
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their wisdom with:
>
>"DrPostman" <> >"Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
>> No problem unless you give it to an addict.
>
>I don't believe it enough to state anything categorically.
>Like Steve says in a previous post, we tend to issue labels left right and
>centre.
>Many a person who is not 'addictive by nature' (another one I don't
>subscribe to), ends up in dire straits because of issues with medically
>prescribed drugs, (valium librium, etc).
>If people could be easily labelled 'addicts', a phrase thrown around like
>confetti, surely by now, our great experts could come up with a percentile
>profile to identify those at risk. Nahh - the plain facts are, you become
>an 'addict' after the facts.
>
>I suggest a deep study of the Doctors Opinion, and a disciplined read of the
>Scientology's brief (Narcanon), will open minds, that's what I'm about
I'm afraid I am a bit closed minded about $cientology. You might want to
take a peek at this site before you endorse them so freely.
http://www.crackpots.org/
>anyway, having an open mind, being prepared to be 'wrong'.
>I suppose you could say I'm among the 'don't knows' - thats okay though, I
>appear to be in great company
>Chees
>Tommy
Or better yet the NA Basic Text which says that the answer to "am I an addict"
is left up to the individual. I learned early on in recovery to avoid labeling
anyone. If they want what we have to offer AND are willing to make the effort
to get it THEN they are ready to take certain steps.
MORNING DEW
> "Vanilla bean"? Gee, I haven't even really retired yet.
>
My wifes ex-husband and I get along pretty well and he's an AA guy.
He always argues about the day of the lilly white pure vanilla bean
alcoholic being long gone.
I did get around a lot. I did a great deal of travel with my wife and we
always go to local meetings in
new places. Man, we went to a meeting in Tokyo(and my nihongo(japanese) is
adequate) and spent the next two
days going to the coolest places you'd never see if you weren't a local.
It's like that everywhere and all those
places have their old-timers. For some reason people usually introduce us.
So yeah...i get around round round round...
Richard II
wrote in message <3D9F7D5E...@dimensional.com>:
>The liver can metabolize only a certain amount of alcohol per hour, regardless
>of the amount that has been consumed. The rate of alcohol metabolism depends, in
>part, on the amount of metabolizing enzymes in the liver, which varies among
>individuals
which is precisely why DUI should be scrapped...
it is not fair or just to set _any_ level of blood/alcohol level as a
maximum limit...
people must be judged on what they _do_, not on what they _might_ do... and
by that I mean accidents etc...
there's my way of looking at it... and then there's the wrong way...
> The short version:
> Alcohol is a drug.
why don't you quote the URL you lifted that from...?
--
just for today I'll do things differently
Richard II
message <ua6vpu8fgq5ujjj7c...@4ax.com>:
>On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:05:47 +0100, "Tommy" <Tomlep...@myrealbox.com> in
>accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
>their wisdom with:
>>"Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
>>> Alcohol is a drug
>>'Zounds' - if that be so, then why does everyone who takes the drug
>>'alcohol' not become addicted to it.
>Do you actually believe that every drug causes addiction?
>It isn't the substance, it is the person.
prolly a combination of both...
>>To the general public alcohol is oftentimes used as a stimulant, a relaxant,
>>a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
>Just like smoking a joint.
>No problem unless you give it to an addict.
not all addicts will have a problem with weed...
i believe that addiction is about substance... an individual will have a
problem with a range of substances... like an allergy...
addiction is not a spiritual problem... it is a substance problem... (the
current spiritual solution is a stop gap which sorta works for some)...
klaar...
Richard II
wrote in message <3D9F9E63...@dimensional.com>:
>Tommy wrote:
>> "Steve N." > NEWSFLASH:
>> > Alcohol is a drug
>> a precursor to sex, to sleep etc. but,,,,,..........
> OIC - it's actually some separate class of 'substance' used for various effects
>that somehow modify people's cognitive, fuctional and/or emotional states...
>sort of like, well, drugs do.
>ummm hmmm
what he is saying is that alcohol may well be a drug, but it does not
represent a problem substance for everyone...
the big lie perpetrated on society by the largely US led "War on Drugs" is
that _all_ narcotic use by _anyone_ is morally wrong... we don't live in a
secular society, we live in a religious "sin based" society...
a secular society would allow greater individual freedom... most of this
world's laws are composed by religious minded people... how can state be
separate from Church, when leaders worship Jesus Christ / J*h*v*h / Allah /
etc...?
the religions of this world teach its followers to moralise not only about
themselves but by those around them... and so we are a world of busy bodies
interfering with what others do... peeking in their bedroom windows to see
if a white man is screwing a black woman...
this happened in Apartheid South Africa... but the lesson is still lost to
most...
drugs are not the problem... neither is abuse of them... neither is drug
trafficking... the War on Drugs is...
Richard II
wrote in message
<28700-3DA...@storefull-2318.public.lawson.webtv.net>:
>to...@videotron.ca (naz) wrote:
>>addicts with no program are funny when filled
>> with resentment
>As opposed to addicts *with* a "program" filled with resentment?
well, they are saved...
they're the chosen ones... the gurus of life...
they say things like, "I'll be your sponsor... but you've got to do
everything I tell you... otherwise I'd just be wasting both your time and my
time..."
and my reply is, "I'll be glad to do whatever you tell me... just as soon as
ya slit yer throat..."
Richard II
message <2jd0qukka7o4oadgq...@4ax.com>:
>If they want what we have to offer AND are willing to make the effort
>to get it THEN they are ready to take certain steps.
that's fair...
from what I've seen in NA Cape Town, I don't want what they have...
I'm willing to make the effort for myself though, because I am worth it...
I've never felt that I'm not...
F.H.
> and my reply is, "I'll be glad to do whatever you tell me... just as soon as
> ya slit yer throat..."
Oh goody, another intellectual.
Marty Capella
<Tomlep...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve N." >
>> Tommy wrote:
>> The short version:
>> Alcohol is a drug.
>> Steve
>
>In your opinion, that's fine.
>In real life, some people drink alcohol, by your reckoning, substantiated by
>the facts you cared to consider, anyone who uses alcohol is a drug addict.
>Ce sera sera.
>Me I'm a plain old alcoholic of the complicated type.
>Drugs were never my problem.
>|Therefore I'm not a drug addict - works for me :-)
>Now about this sheep drinking NA beer, while smoking MJ :-|
>
>Cheers
>Tommy
>
Tommy:
If you are going to use trite French expressions, at least get them
right: Que sera sera.
mc
David M
> If you are going to use trite French expressions, at
> least get them right: Que sera sera.
Idiomatically translated, doesn't that mean "Don't sweat the
small stuff?"
Give you any ideas?
Tom G.
And you couldn't resist respondin' for even a few minutes...
Need a sponsor...??
Tom
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------------------
Tom Gosnell t...@thegoz.com
--------------Oooo-----------------------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) / To visit my Website...
\ ( (_/ Click there --> http://www.thegoz.com
\_)
F.H.
>
> "F.H." wrote:
>
> > Richard II wrote:
> >
> > > and my reply is, "I'll be glad to do whatever you tell me... just as soon as
> > > ya slit yer throat..."
> >
> > Oh goody, another intellectual.
>
> And you couldn't resist respondin' for even a few minutes...
> Need a sponsor...??
Stumpy get you straightened out yet? When it becomes unmanageable, feel
free to give me a call.
Frankie 12 step.
Tommy
"DrPostman> >
> >I suggest a deep study of the Doctors Opinion, and a disciplined read of
the
> >Scientology's brief (Narcanon), will open minds, that's what I'm about
>
> I'm afraid I am a bit closed minded about $cientology. You might want to
> take a peek at this site before you endorse them so freely.
> http://www.crackpots.org/
Oh I didn't endorse Scientology, I recommended a read of their narconon
'brief'... Contempt prior to investigation and all that jazz - explains a
lot in common to drug addiction (Narconon)
Whatever tickles a person fancy is okay by me, some people take the
'Pledge', swear off drink and never drink again. Others take the
Confirmation Pledge, get on with life, never strikes them that alcohol
exists. They could very easily be mean miserable bastiids, what the heck,
live and let live,
Ce sera sera
Cheers
Tomym
Tommy
"Marty Capella" >
> If you are going to use trite French expressions, at least get them
> right: Que sera sera.
>
> mc
If you're going to correct me, get the fecking language right,
Cé será será is fecking Irish - okay :-))
Slán leat,
A Thomáis.
F.H.
Bitch slap dat boy Tommy.
Tom G.
I think poor Stumpy has problems other than alcohol...
In any case, Virt would be a better counsel... He understands
our Stumpy....
Marty Capella
wrote:
Literally translated, it means, "What will be will be." It's kind of
like courage to change the things we can, etc. Spelling is something
we can change. Anyway, no sweat off my brow.
mc
Marty Capella
wrote:
Pogue mahone!
Yer some can of piss, you are. You had me laugin me gacks off.
mc
STAAMFA
"TG."
| >
| > Oh goody, another intellectual.
|
| And you couldn't resist respondin' for even a few minutes...
| Need a sponsor...??
loll I would hope, if you're offering that he's intelligent to turn you
down.
STAAMFA
"Virtualoso"
| > He always argues about the day of the lilly white pure vanilla bean
| > alcoholic being long gone.
|
| Oh, well, if he says so. But "lilly white pure vanilla bean"? That
| would be "alcoholic"? LOL
It's a figure of speech Virt.
STAAMFA
"TG." <
| I think poor Stumpy has problems other than alcohol...
| In any case, Virt would be a better counsel... He understands
| our Stumpy....
|
lol I would to if I were you and I constantly made myself look an ass
because of me.
STAAMFA
"F.H." <
| Stumpy get you straightened out yet? When it becomes unmanageable, feel
| free to give me a call.
LOL
| Frankie 12 step.
Staampfa no step.
Tom G.
Only in yer mind, you freakin' airhead... Poor Frankie has
to simply follow... Take away his tagons to Virt and others
he'd have nothing much to say, what the hell, I'm the best writer
he's got... I figure it his lack of a personality of any kind...
Richard II
in message <3DA068CE...@earthlink.net>:
yer on Usenet for intellectual discussions...?
i pity your kind...
Tommy
"Marty Capella" <
> >> If you're going to correct me, get the fecking language right,
> >> Cé será será is fecking Irish - okay :-))
> >> Slán leat,
> >> A Thomáis.
> >
> >Bitch slap dat boy Tommy.
>
> Pogue mahone!
>
> Yer some can of piss, you are. You had me laugin me gacks off.
>
> mc
Laughing yer 'cacks' off, oh where is it going to end :-))
Tommy
Gail
"Tommy" <Tomlep...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ansdmu$gnrgv$1...@ID-49277.news.dfncis.de...
Marty Capella
Oops. Typing too fast.
mc
homerr..2.02k
Richard II wrote in message ...
>and so we are a world of busy bodies
>interfering with what others do... peeking in their bedroom windows to see
>if a white man is screwing a black woman...
Is that 'wrong'?? [the second part, I mean]
homerr..
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy and "For Entertainment Purposes Only" availed us of
their wisdom with:
>
You peek in my bedroom and see what happens.
--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: jamie_eckles(at)hotmail.com
"my head is blank."
- Ed Conrad finally gets honest