RANT: Lay person rather shocked at behavior in this group
Diane
The best way to end squabbles is to stop responding to them.
The best way to stay out of them in the first place is to "killfile" the
people who start them.
I'm surprised that so many of you were sucked into all that trash.
How can any of you who participated in the squabbles even HOPE to help
*us* if you can't even restrain yourselves?
I'm particularly bothered by the squabbling over the use of the term
"psychologist".
First of all, I wonder about your self-esteem if you feel compelled to
justify your position.
Second, as a lay person, I don't care what you call yourself... I care
what letters there are behind your name (PhD in Psychology, LCSW, MFCC,
etc.)
I call ALL of you Therapist, no matter WHAT you call yourselves.
If you don't do therapy, I call you a Researcher.
Period.
In the computer field, we don't squabble over the use of the term
"programmer". Doesn't matter if you have no degree, or PhD in computer
science. If you type in commands that the computer will follow and you
do this 8 hours a day... you're a programmer.
I think all of you need to go into group counselling together to learn
how to get along, communicate in a civilized manner, and PRACTICE WHAT
YOU PREACH.
Peter
In article <3204E7...@pacbell.net>, Diane <wo...@pacbell.net> writes
>The best way to end squabbles is to stop responding to them.
You are an American, no?: You can kill file some of the B??? aliases all
of the time, you can kill all of the B??? aliases some of the time, but
you _can't_ kill file all of the B??? aliases all of the time. He
creeps into threads and newsgroups where he isn't wanted... ...he is
insidious, give him an idea - a National Health Service, 'care', ethics
- and he'll use it. Why? Just don't know. Don't care. All I care is
that this hydra is stamped on, for once and for all.
>The best way to stay out of them in the first place is to "killfile" the
>people who start them.
Read above.
>I'm surprised that so many of you were sucked into all that trash.
Read above.
>How can any of you who participated in the squabbles even HOPE to help
>*us* if you can't even restrain yourselves?
Read above.
>I'm particularly bothered by the squabbling over the use of the term
>"psychologist".
Read above.
>First of all, I wonder about your self-esteem if you feel compelled to
>justify your position.
Read above.
>Second, as a lay person, I don't care what you call yourself... I care
>what letters there are behind your name (PhD in Psychology, LCSW, MFCC,
>etc.)
Read above.
>I call ALL of you Therapist, no matter WHAT you call yourselves.
Read above - you're a B??? alias, are you?
>If you don't do therapy, I call you a Researcher.
>Period.
Ah. B???.?
>In the computer field, we don't squabble over the use of the term
>"programmer". Doesn't matter if you have no degree, or PhD in computer
>science. If you type in commands that the computer will follow and you
>do this 8 hours a day... you're a programmer.
Not B???.?
>I think all of you need to go into group counselling together to learn
>how to get along, communicate in a civilized manner, and PRACTICE WHAT
>YOU PREACH.
Read. Lurk. Stay quiet until you understand. Otherwise your words will
be ignored. B??? has sucked a great many in, and this is why the
struggle. Look at archives. Take your time. Don't expect to be heard
if you continue in this manner.
Good night.
--
Peter
<who's got another bank account:
bank with ???????'s - they're giving money away.>
Diane
Peter wrote:
>
> Read. Lurk. Stay quiet until you understand. Otherwise your words will
> be ignored. B??? has sucked a great many in, and this is why the
> struggle. Look at archives. Take your time. Don't expect to be heard
> if you continue in this manner.
Well, gee, if you represent this group... and that's how you all feel
about how a layperson views your (plural) behavior........ any you
expect us to have any respect for your profession?????
I agree with slweho and I will back up slweho's comments made about this
group in the other newsgroup(s).....
"Stay quiet until you understand." Umhmmmm... Kind of like "don't
speak until you're spoken to, child?" If B??? is not following the
charter of the group, you can get his ISP to pull his account for
newsgroup abuse..... Seems to me that you feed the arguments as much as
anyone....
If this squabbling is typical of the psychology profession.. then
perhaps it's all "blind leading the blind".
John M. Grohol Psy.D.
Diane wrote:
[...]
> "Stay quiet until you understand." Umhmmmm... Kind of like "don't
> speak until you're spoken to, child?" If B??? is not following the
> charter of the group, you can get his ISP to pull his account for
> newsgroup abuse..... Seems to me that you feed the arguments as much as
Sorry to say, that although AOL is very responsive to the abuse of this
individual (and threats made in e-mail) and has suspended this individual's
account in the past, e-mail to his ISP has been largely unresponsive. It is
naiive, perhaps, to think that simply writing to an ISP and saying, "Look,
this person is abusing the charter in X newsgroup; please make him stop,"
will net any results in many, if not most, ISPs.
Some ISPs are very responsive; others are not. I don't know what else you
can do other than to keep writing up the chain (which is very tedious)
to find someone who will listen somewhere. I and most others in this
newsgroup have better and more productive things to do with our time
than to try and silence someone who is so obviously committed to a
religious-like agenda.
I tried a reasonable solution that would silence no one's voice who wanted
to discuss psychotherapy issues on a psychotherapy newsgroup (gee, go
figure). And although the majority voted for such a proposal, that is
not sufficient for newsgroups. So now we're reduced to the land o' Babel.
-John
--
Mental Health Net
http://www.cmhc.com/
The Largest & Most Comprehensive Mental Health Catalog Online
Diane
Here's an idea... who knows? might work, might not...
Boycott the ng for a few weeks.
Post an article:
Subject: WARNING. THIS NEWSGROUP IS BEING BOYCOTTED...
Text: until such and such happens.
Be sure to list all the people who are supporting the boycott. Explain
why moderation was denied.
Gather up a list of the e-mail addresses whose posts you've enjoyed.
Set up a distribution list in your private e-mail reader. Write to them
directly.
Check the group once a week (when you post the warning) and see if the
squabblers have given up yet.
The way I look at it... it really makes your profession look bad.
There've already been three lay people who have posted negative comments
about this newsgroup in other newsgroups. Imagine how many have
looked... and posted negative comments without your knowing it... or
mentioned it verbally to friends... "sling enough mud and some of it
will stick."
The field of psychology still has much prejudice to overcome in the lay
world. If people come here looking for some answers and they see the
squabbling... it doesn't help the image. (That's why I suggest the
warning post)
I grew up in a Mental Health family (my mom worked in Camarillo State
Hospital, an In-patient ward, an Out-patient ward, and an Alcohol & Drug
Rehab center). I spent many afternoons "hanging out with the psychos,
druggies and drunks" while I waited for Mom to get off work. So I have
few prejudices about the field. Having straddled both worlds all my
life, I know that those in the psychology field are human too, but
Public Relations is still extremely important.
Cognitee
Dear John,
I have welcomed all to send me personally a copy of any post they find
abusive. I always read my mail closely and this would be (and
occassionally has been) highly effective to tone down some harshness.
BUT In the last month, I received only 4 "takers".
There is a campaign against me in this newsgroup. Many people here
feel they have the absolute right to drive me out. That's right: drive
me out. And this is not largely based on even harsh posts, but my views
are not liked. My "religious campaign" does occasionally make some
progress. I write new essays anyway, and I continue to raise important
issues. You and others don't like them from the start, that is clear
and that is an indictment of this newsgroup and likely also somewhat
indicative of the field (though I must admit that the exact same
arguments are much better received on professional mainling lists -- as
you know). -- b jesness
Cognitee
Dear John,
In an effort to show the utmost openness to problem-solving solutions
regarding any infractions (or perceived infractions) of civility I
commit (or am seen as committing): I have established a special aol
address with a friend to receive all complaints about me and/or my posts
(OR anything) **both from people who allow me to send them e-mail AND
those who don't**. This should stop some (much?) of the personal
bickering going on in the newsgroup *about behavior* per se.
I hope this is appreciated and used. I believe this is very
constructive. **ANYONE** MAY WRITE TO ME (through a friend) about
anything at this address: BrRec...@aol.com I shall read and respond
to all notes (unless you tell me not to respond or are a person I know
wants no response). I offer this gesture in sincerity and good faith.
Let me know if there is anything else you think I should do ANY TIME
at that address. My best wishes to all, b jesness
Mike Rael
Hi, Diane.
I don't like flaming the good Brad. I don't like flaming anyone.
But what do you do with an irrepressible prankster of the worst
sort, who *threatens* to ruin people's reputations when they argue with
him? He has done this with Dr. Grohol, with myself, with Dr. Packer, and
with others here.
For your information, we have tried ignoring him. We have also
tried a rather subtle psychodynamic strategy I devised--to no effect.
His machinations have led to the general call for moderation
here, which 2/3 of the voters agreed to, but which failed by a fluke in
the rules.
Since he won't politely be kicked off, and AOL, his home where he
manuafactures endless aliases to order, refuses to say Boo, what *else*
can be done except to flame him to the point where he feels it is less
uncomfortable to go elsewhere?
Given that, as I stated, ignoring him simply did not work and
does not work, and taking all that I said into account, do you have a
better solution? If so, PLEASE tell us all. I'd *love* a better solution
to abate this nuisance.
best wishes,
Mike
Mike Rael
la...@netcom.com
listowner, self-esteem-self-help
--
Mike Rael
la...@netcom.com
listowner, self-esteem-self-help
To subscribe, email:list...@netcom.com No subject header
Message: subscribe self-esteem-self-help
"If you have a serious, ongoing problem, you will be referred to a
therapist of your choice. The listowner, while experienced in these
areas, is not a licensed therapist."
Peter
> Peter wrote:
> > Read. Lurk. Stay quiet until you understand. Otherwise your words will
> > be ignored. B??? has sucked a great many in, and this is why the
> > struggle. Look at archives. Take your time. Don't expect to be heard
> > if you continue in this manner.
> Well, gee, if you represent this group... and that's how you all feel
> about how a layperson views your (plural) behavior........ any you
> expect us to have any respect for your profession?????
Lay views of what? Of therapy, or of an ng that has been plagued since
its inception by a nuisance?
> I agree with slweho and I will back up slweho's comments made about this
> group in the other newsgroup(s).....
Fine. You will probably be ignored, either that or people will try to explain
to you what has been happening.
> "Stay quiet until you understand." Umhmmmm... Kind of like "don't
> speak until you're spoken to, child?" If B??? is not following the
> charter of the group, you can get his ISP to pull his account for
> newsgroup abuse..... Seems to me that you feed the arguments as much as
> anyone....
1) No; it is usual to lurk and thus understand what is going on, to read any
FAQ there may be, and so on. This is the advice that ISP's usually provide
their clients when they first connect. Mine did. All of the journals in
England recommend it too. You just landed in the debate and are trying to
make sense of what is going on from a brief snapshot in time. OK?
2) Trying pulling B???'s account yourself. Many have. Long list of failures,
as you'd know if you ran a search on the subject, wrote to people on the matter,
and lurked awhile. As a matter of fact, I think I recall seeing recent data on
this in this ng.
> If this squabbling is typical of the psychology profession.. then
> perhaps it's all "blind leading the blind".
As a matter of fact it is not; moreover, you will find that psychologists, therapists
and counsellors, being human, are not angels. Nor do they possess infinite patience.
What you see is human. After many months people are biting back. Biting back at
slander, defaming, and an extensive list of aggressive actions in news. I have
difficulty in including B??? in the counselling/therapeutic profession, and WRT
to the term 'psychologist' in America it differs to the English view - Americans
are apparently required, by and large, to be licensed in order to call themselves
'psychologists'. In England it is different; we have 'psychologists' and "chartered
psychologists".
Just like nurses and other people in the caring professions therapists have their
limits. We appear to have reached ours - not that we should be therapists in our
spare time, and tolerate the things we <normally, if working> would tolerate in
our work?
--
Peter
James K. Cotten
Cognitee (Cogn...@aol.com) wrote:
: Dear John,
: I have welcomed all to send me personally a copy of any post they find
: abusive.
you copies of the posts of yours that were abusive. Within
1 day, you had blocked my ability to send mail to you.
Thus, the entire newsgroup is burdened by my complaints
against you. I don't trust your sincerity.
kelly
SRoweCanoe
In article <8TYzNFA1...@brentano.demon.co.uk>, Peter
<Pe...@brentano.demon.co.uk> writes to responds to Dianne:
>You are an American, no?: You can kill file some of the B??? aliases all
>of the time, you can kill all of the B??? aliases some of the time, but
>you _can't_ kill file all of the B??? aliases all of the time.
>
>>The best way to stay out of them in the first place is to "killfile" the
>>people who start them.
Also, not all of us have readers that allow us to killfile people. I
guess if this continues; then soemone might opost twice a monthe BRAD FAQ,
so that newbies will understand.
Steven Rowe
Cognitee
Dear Kelly:
I am now receiving mail at BrRec...@aol.com I look forward to
getting yours.
I apologize to the newsgroup for this personal response. I don't
recall whether Kelly is one who has forbidden me to write her or not.
(All who write me might do well to remind me.) --bj
Peter
In article: <320594...@pacbell.net> Diane <wo...@pacbell.net> writes:
> Here's an idea... who knows? might work, might not...
> Boycott the ng for a few weeks.
> Post an article:
> Subject: WARNING. THIS NEWSGROUP IS BEING BOYCOTTED...
> Text: until such and such happens.
> Be sure to list all the people who are supporting the boycott. Explain
> why moderation was denied.
> Gather up a list of the e-mail addresses whose posts you've enjoyed.
> Set up a distribution list in your private e-mail reader. Write to them
> directly.
Well, we _all_ talk! Norm and I are designing a suite of androgynous e-clothes,
John Clark and John Price, following my earlier outrageous behaviour, have
been kind enough to forgive & give me instruction on how to make Voodoo e-dolls,
with little "B"'s on them, Ember's started up an e-sign language course, so's
we can sign rudely to B??? in front of our screens, Brett Bullington's been
giving lessons on how to make humorous postings, Leslie Packer and Norm have
set up a discussion forum to ascertain where precisely thoughts actually come
from - with a view to explaining our behaviour here - Mike's been giving us
all lessons on how to let our e-self-esteem come out of our ears, those of us who are
psychobiologically inclined have set up the 'E-Potomac Fishing Club', Larry Lyons
has set up the 'E-Enlightened Self Hedonism' club - so's to help us with our
difficulties WRT e-internecine scrapping - Ed and Leslie have been giving tuition
in e-statistics, e-experimental design and e-non-verbal language <G>, Lorne Gilsig's
been giving lessons in short postings to s.p.p <I failed the first exam, and
was chucked off the course for e-talking too much>, Lou Gallagher returned to
show us how to keep the e-sandpit clean, Dan Rogers has been giving us lessons
in e-entomology, Kelly Harvey's been giving us lessons in e-Banditry, Robert White's
been teaching us to type, Rolf's been making sure that the FAQ burns bright,
Paul Bernhardt's been testing e-testosterone levels on both sides of the argument -
in an attempt to determine who's winning it - Edna's started up a club for all
demonites who subscribe to s.p.p, Silke's on an e-investigative trip to Germany -
in the hope of finding a clever electronic device that will filter out all of
the alters that are involved here - John Grohol's been giving us lessons on
e-self moderation and forbearance, Deborah's been giving us lessons on how to
interpret the names of somebody's alters and, finally, there are about 56 or so email
addresses that want us all to leave this ng, because we are in the way, and
want to be left to e-argue with themself! <VBG>
> Check the group once a week (when you post the warning) and see if the
> squabblers have given up yet.
All 56+? <G> Could be interesting to lurk, tho'? <Roars of laughter.>
> The way I look at it... it really makes your profession look bad.
> There've already been three lay people who have posted negative comments
> about this newsgroup in other newsgroups. Imagine how many have
> looked... and posted negative comments without your knowing it... or
> mentioned it verbally to friends... "sling enough mud and some of it
> will stick."
Well, seriously, I know. This has been the case for months now.
> The field of psychology still has much prejudice to overcome in the lay
> world. If people come here looking for some answers and they see the
> squabbling... it doesn't help the image. (That's why I suggest the
> warning post)
> I grew up in a Mental Health family (my mom worked in Camarillo State
> Hospital, an In-patient ward, an Out-patient ward, and an Alcohol & Drug
> Rehab center). I spent many afternoons "hanging out with the psychos,
> druggies and drunks" while I waited for Mom to get off work. So I have
> few prejudices about the field. Having straddled both worlds all my
> life, I know that those in the psychology field are human too, but
> Public Relations is still extremely important.
Well, Roger that, Diane. I thought about it, and I wondered. Whilst everyone
is away the sign saying "Subject: WARNING. THIS NEWSGROUP IS BEING BOYCOTTED..."
could actually be re-posted by all absentees... ...but on their return, guess what?
That's right. 56+ alters would pounce. I still like your suggestion though. What
do others think?
--
Peter
Cognitee
Dear Peter,
I wonder why so often when people come here looking for answers to
appropriately general clinical-type questions none are forthcoming. I,
myself, was the only one to answer one question recently. I admit I
showed myself so scholarly , it was a hard act to follow, but I did not
completely answer the questions. -- b jesness (receiving mail through
BrRec...@aol.com)
Paul Bernhardt
> "Stay quiet until you understand." Umhmmmm... Kind of like "don't
> speak until you're spoken to, child?" If B??? is not following the
> charter of the group, you can get his ISP to pull his account for
> newsgroup abuse..... Seems to me that you feed the arguments as much as
> anyone....
Having known Peter for some time now, I don't think that is what he meant.
Lurking to learn the culture of a newsgroup and the behaviors of
individuals is a tried and true internet tradition.... or didn't you read
the AOL how to use newsgroups files?.... (I am an aol member as well, so I
know they are there...)
Not that your concerns aren't legitimate in general. But given the problem
we have in this group (MultiBrad), we have all begun to act in ways we
normally would regret.
+=============================================================+
Paul C. Bernhardt, M.S. in Social Psychology (non-clinical)
+=============================================================+
John Sproule
Diane <wo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Here's an idea... who knows? might work, might not...
>Boycott the ng for a few weeks.
>Post an article:
> Subject: WARNING. THIS NEWSGROUP IS BEING BOYCOTTED...
> Text: until such and such happens.
>Be sure to list all the people who are supporting the boycott. Explain
>why moderation was denied.
Diane,
I appreciate your constructive suggestions about how to move on to
more substantive discussions. I'm not sure if I have my facts
straight on this, but I think the problem with changing to a moderated
newsgroup had to do with the low voter turnout. This would seem to
support your suggestion of moving discussion to a mailing list format,
since trying to change the nature of this newsgroup failed. I know
that you are suggesting an informal mailing list, managed by each
person involved individually, but I also wondered what would be
involved in establishing something like a listserv mailing list. I am
relatively new to the internet, so I don't know how practical such a
venture would be.
John Sproule
Knoxville, TN
>Gather up a list of the e-mail addresses whose posts you've enjoyed.
>Set up a distribution list in your private e-mail reader. Write to them
>directly.
>Check the group once a week (when you post the warning) and see if the
>squabblers have given up yet.
>The way I look at it... it really makes your profession look bad.
>There've already been three lay people who have posted negative comments
>about this newsgroup in other newsgroups. Imagine how many have
>looked... and posted negative comments without your knowing it... or
>mentioned it verbally to friends... "sling enough mud and some of it
>will stick."
>The field of psychology still has much prejudice to overcome in the lay
Cognitee
Dear John Sproule,
There is a nice mailing list for clinical psychologists (and closely
related type persons): It is CLINICAL-PSYCHOLOGISTS. All is very civil
over there. I am a respected member there (since I teach counseling).
write to BrRec...@aol.com
Mike Rael
BRAD,
Since you teach counseling, how about imparting to all us
neophytes the benefit of your professorial wisdom.
Which theories do you believe in and WHY?
By the way, you might note that I am taking seriously your earlier cries to
be judged by competence rather than degrees! I choose to deliberately
overlook your shameful judgment of Leslie based on her *degrees* rather
than the quality of her thinking.
I have asked you this question numerous times and, like the
Scientologists I have asked about their beliefs, are about as elusive as
a goldfish in a pond. Privately, you have named the names of some
therapists, but still refrain from telling me *how* or *why* you chose to
follow those Names.
If you don't want to talk about your *counseling* beliefs, you
have no business bringing into the conversation that you teach counseling!
best,
Mike
Mike Rael
la...@netcom.com
listowner, self-esteem-self-help
Cognitee (see...@of.post) wrote:
: Dear John Sproule,
Leslie E. Packer, PhD
On Aug 08, 1996 04:32:17 in article <Re: RANT: Lay person rather shocked at
behavior in this group>, 'la...@netcom.com (Mike Rael)' wrote:
>Since you teach counseling, how about imparting to all us
>neophytes the benefit of your professorial wisdom.
Has anyone else pondered about why someone who says that they've been
teaching for 10 years and is highly respected, etc., etc. is still an
instructor?
Hmmmm... curious...
Edward SantoPrieto
Greetings,
I'm currently an undergradat NYU's Applied Psych program. I read the
postings in hopes of availing myself of the benefit of the experience
of those actually working in the field. I've been lurking for quite
some time and have followed the symbiotic relationship between the
group as a whole and "BRAD". I wonder: taking into account the
difficult nature of the relationship, couldnt it be used as a stepping
stone instead of an obstacle? I would have to agree with an earlier
poster that the group and "BRAD" feed off each other. The more members
express anger towards him, the more he pushes buttons. There are
instigators in every newsgroup. My experience (which is limited in
this context) tells me that in engaging such people in dialogue, I
give them credence.
I may be naive in stating that I thought experienced professionals
would have been better equiped to handle such people. I do not say
this in order to rile some people, I am only stating what I believed.
Finally, if it was "BRAD's" intention to disrupt this group, then he
has succeeded, hasn't he? I had a similar problem with a "discussion"
that disintegrated into a personal e-mail flame war. As soon as I put
the person into my kill file and ignored his postings, he stopped.
Perhaps this has been discussed previuosly. If so, I apologize. As I
said earlier, I'm new to the group. I honestly hope that the
discussion here will return to a serious exchange of ideas and civil
dialogue. I, for one, would benefit much from the experience of most
here.
In Appreciation,
Eddie
Mike Rael
Hi, Eddie:)
What can one say to the Voice of Reason, except:Hail and well met!?
I am no longer concerned, personally, with what Brad does on spp.
I am focused on how I respond to him:thoughtfully, in a principled
manner, empathetically,
best wishes,
Edward SantoPrieto (luc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Greetings,
--