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Israeli Settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are Illegal..

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James Morris

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Feb 17, 2002, 2:39:44 PM2/17/02
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What about the Husayn-McMahon Correspondence in which the British promised
the Arabs self-determination in the Arab lands (to include Palestine). This
Husayn-McMahon Correspondence was initiated in July of 1915 and was before
Sykes-Picot (which was ratified in May 1916) and before the Balfour
Declaration as well (which was in November of 1917). As I am British as well
as American, the British promised the Arabs Palestine in return for their
rising up against the Ottomans, however, the British didn't honor the
Husayn-McMahon Correspondence...

I don't support violence. However, those Israeli settlements on Palestinian
land in the occupied terrorities are illegal and should not be there per UN
Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Also, the Mitchell Plan is against
those
settlements as well. Yet, Israel continues to defy the Mitchell Plan in
building them. The USA should cut off aid to Israel as supporting Israel is
NOT worth the cost... If someone kept encroaching on my land (with
settlements and such), I would be pretty upset about it as well (and I
wouldn't just "roll over" like the arrogant Israelis expect the Palestinians
to do).

Look at the cost of supporting Israel for the USA taxpayer (three billion a
year which facilitates the continued Israeli brutalization of the
Palestinian people which then contributes to terrorism against our country
like what happened with the World Trade Center and then the cost in billions
of dollars of having to defend against such terrorism because of our flawed
and biased policy of such one-sided support for Israel because of the
pro-Israel lobby and close to 50 percent of the US Congress is pro-Israel
(Jewish) when Jewish people constitute only 1 percent of the US population,
so there is apparently an agenda going on).

Even more spin on behalf of the apartheid-like state of Israel which
continues to brutalize the Palestinians (with billions of USA taxpayer
dollar aid to facilitate such) which has contributed to the terrorism that
we have experienced in our beloved United States.. It is time for the USA to
stop taking sides in a "holy war" that is only contributing to terrorism and
diminishing our civil rights as well.

"PNEWS.ORG" <ch...@fdn.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.020217...@shell.fdn.com...
>
> Good points Roderick. Of course Israel is NOT interested in promoting any
> aggressive and they're not stupid. When political pressure will work it is
> preferred over any military action where innocent people will be killed as
> collateral effects of any war. Nobody in their right mind wants that - but
> the Arab sympathizers here appear to support the wrong side, even when it
> means possible harm to U.S. citizens.
>
> TheGolem
> http://pnews.org/
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2002, Roderick S. Beck wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > Stop the nonsense. Calling Israel an apartheid state shows the depth of
> > your ignorance.
> >
> > As a state committed to democracy and human rights, Americans have an
> > obligation to suppot the only Middle East state that honors those values
> > - Israel.
> >
> > None of the Arab states are functioning democracies and they are all
> > guilty of rampant human violations.
> >
> > It is also nonsense to claim that Jews are pushing for an attack on
> > Iraq. You will find a lot more Gentiles, both in absolute numbers and as
> > a percentage, pushing for intervention in Iraq.
> >
> > - R.
> >
> > PS: Think before you write.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Morris wrote:
> >
> > >Israel is an apartheid state with a war criminal (in Ariel Sharon) as
its
> > >leader, and the USA hypocritically supports such (when Sharon is still
> > >wanted for his "Butcher of Lebanon" war crimes in Belgium). The USA
made
> > >sure that Milosevic rightfully gets tried (at the The Hague) as the war
> > >criminal that he is. Yet, President Bush uses a convenient double
standard
> > >to "look the other way" with Sharon... No wonder the Arab world hates
the
> > >USA and has marked us as a target for terrorism. Check out the opinion
piece
> > >(included below) about the war crimes that Sharon is wanted for in
> > >Belgium...
> > >
> > >The three billion USA taxpayer dollar support that is given annually to
> > >Israel would be better spent at home in the USA. Instead, such
multi-billion
> > >dollar support to Israel has contributed to terrorism within our
borders
> > >such as what happened with the World Trade Center disaster. As a
result, we
> > >have also had our civil rights diminished (such as with the Patriot Act
> > >passed in Congress after the World Trade Center bombing) and increased
> > >security (at airports and similar) which has been an inconvenience as
> > >well... The USA support of Israel is NOT worth the cost, and now
pro-Israel
> > >(Jewish) people (in the State and Defense Departments as well as in the
US
> > >Congress) are in a blatant conflict of interest (from my objective and
> > >unbiased perspective) by pushing for the USA to attack Iraq (and
possibly
> > >Iran as well) for the benefit of Israel.. Those same people support
(and
> > >vote in the US Congress) to keep the billions of dollars of USA
taxpayer
> > >dollar aid going for Israel each year. If such isn't a blatant conflict
of
> > >interest, then what is it?! When the communication director (for US
> > >Congresswoman McKinley) brought such up recently (about Israel's
occupation
> > >of the US Congress as to include members of the foreign relations
> > >committees), he was asked to resign.. Again, I ask the American people:
> > >Should one percent of the population have so much control of the USA
> > >government (and the resulting US Policy which is flawed because of such
a
> > >blatant conflict of interest)?! I think not. Heck, if we had
German-American
> > >members of the US Congress voting in favor of the Nazis in World War 2
(or
> > >before) and getting them US taxpayer dollars as well, would we have
> > >tolerated such? I would hope not...
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net>
> > >Newsgroups:
> >
>talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
,
> > >soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 2:35 PM
> > >Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> > >
> > >
> > >>Listen to the spin from this guy as it is a known fact that Isael
> > >>
> > >basically
> > >
> > >>"blackmailed" the USA (taxpayers) into paying millions to settle more
> > >>Russian Jews into Israel in return for Israel not to attack Iraq after
the
> > >>Scuds hit (as Israel attacking Iraq then would have broken up the
> > >>international coalition). Such was even more blown money that the USA
had
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>pay the apartheid state of Israel because of the pro-Israeli lobby in
the
> > >>USA.
> > >>
> > >>Also, how many US Congressmen (including US senators are pro-Israel
> > >>
> > >because
> > >
> > >>they are Jewish and vote in favor of ongoing support of Israel which
is a
> > >>blatant conflict of interest as Jewish people compose about 1 percent
of
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>US population yet they compose about 50 percent of the US Congress).
How
> > >>
> > >so
> > >
> > >>as there seems to be some kind of agenda there? Also, Israel is trying
to
> > >>get the USA to attack Iraq for Israel's benefit... Cut the billions of
> > >>dollars of annual USA taxpayer aid to Israel, and we will most likely
see
> > >>our terrorism problem evaporate... The USA has no business taking
sides in
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>"holy war" (just because of a strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA)
which
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>contributing to further terrorism within our borders that we don't
need as
> > >>such is obviously unacceptable as well.
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: der...@alhayat.com
> > >>Cc: ra...@alhayat.com ; ledi...@alhayat.com ; ma...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>mus...@alhayat.com ; zou...@alhayat.com ; iska...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>bcha...@alhayat.com ; ba...@alhayat.com ; gcha...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>geo...@alhayat.com
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:24 AM
> > >>Subject: Fw: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Ms. Dergham,
> > >>
> > >>You were absolutely accurate with what you said on the ABC Nightline
> > >>television news program (in the USA) last night with regard to the
double
> > >>standard of Israel having nuclear weapons. Also, your comments on an
> > >>
> > >earlier
> > >
> > >>Nightline were excellent as well (with regard to the biased pro-Israel
> > >>policy by the USA that contributed to the World Trade Center
disaster). I
> > >>think you might find the following to be of interest (to include the
> > >>
> > >opinion
> > >
> > >>pieces below which appeared in the UCLA Daily Bruin university
newspaper).
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>---- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: onthe...@foxnews.com
> > >>greta.va...@foxnews.com
> > >>Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:13 PM
> > >>Subject: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Greta,
> > >>
> > >>How about Ariel Sharon and what he did with the massacre at the
> > >>
> > >Palestinian
> > >
> > >>refugee camps in Lebanon (as mentioned in the opinion piece included
> > >>
> > >below).
> > >
> > >>Why such a double standard? Especially when Sharon is wanted for such
war
> > >>crimes in Belgium, and you don't even cover it.. Nor do any of the
other
> > >>
> > >USA
> > >
> > >>networks from what I have seen thus far...
> > >>
> > >>With kindest regards,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: tony...@foxnews.com
> > >>Cc: Congressman McKeon ; in...@kyl.senate.gov ;
sen...@kennedy.senate.gov
> > >>
> > >;
> > >
> > >>sen...@akaka.senate.gov ; senato...@byrd.senate.gov ;
> > >>senator_...@domenici.senate.gov ; sen...@dorgan.senate.gov ;
> > >>di...@durbin.senate.gov ; senato...@leahy.senate.gov ;
> > >>blanche...@lincoln.senate.gov ; senat...@lott.senate.gov ;
> > >>senato...@lugar.senate.gov ; john_...@mccain.senate.gov ;
> > >>sen...@mcconnell.senate.gov ; comm...@foxnews.com ;
com...@foxnews.com
> > >>Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:12 AM
> > >>
> > >>Subject: Many Americans Not in Support of What was Just Mentioned on
the
> > >>
> > >Fox
> > >
> > >>News Channel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>With regard to Senator Kyl's comments just now with Tony Snow on the
Fox
> > >>News Channel (about our ongoing support for the Israeli Army's
continued
> > >>brutalization of the Palestinian people which has tragically
contributed
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>terrorism being experienced within the USA which is absolutely
> > >>unacceptable), many Americans such as myself want the US Government to
cut
> > >>or substantially reduce the three billion dollar annual support to
Israel
> > >>
> > >as
> > >
> > >>our terrorism problem would most likely soon evaporate thereafter.
Europe
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>not alone in its condemnation of the apartheid policy that Israel has
> > >>against the Palestian people.
> > >>
> > >>Please review the recent opinion pieces (which appeared in the UCLA
Daily
> > >>Bruin newspaper) and the radio interview of Robert Fisk (who is based
in
> > >>Beirut and covers the Middle East for the UK Independent newspaper)
which
> > >>are both included below. In closing, the USA has no business taking
sides
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>a "holy war" as such has been taking place for years because of the
strong
> > >>pro-Israel lobby in our country.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: mma...@hotmail.com
> > >>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:11 PM
> > >>Subject: Your Opinion Piece (about Sharon) in the UCLA Daily Bruin was
> > >>Excellent...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Ali,
> > >>
> > >>As I am not Jewish (Israeli) nor Palestian, I think you will find the
> > >>following to be of interest (especially the mention of Robert Fisk who
is
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>reporter based in Beirut who covers the Middle East for the
Independent
> > >>newspaper in the UK as his perspective on the Middle East is excellent
and
> > >>can be listened to as well via the Web site provided below). Your
opinion
> > >>piece about the brutal nature of Ariel Sharon (which is included
below)
> > >>
> > >from
> > >
> > >>the UCLA Daily Bruin was excellent. You might want to check out the
> > >>following Web sites as well:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.bitterlemons.org
> > >>
> > >>http://www.memri.org
> > >>
> > >>http://www.debka.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: pressin...@rezapahlavi.org
> > >>Cc: rp...@postmark.net
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:58 PM
> > >>Subject: Fox News Channel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Pahlavi,
> > >>
> > >>I saw your interview moments ago on the Fox News Channel and just
checked
> > >>out your interesting Web site (http://www.rezapahlavi.org). Sean
Hannity
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>very pro-Israel and apparently wants America to attack Iran in an
attempt
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>neutralize Iran for Israel's benefit. I (and many other Americans)
have no
> > >>interest in continuing to support Israel as such multi-billion annual
> > >>support (by the USA) contributed to the tragic terrorism with the
World
> > >>Trade Center disaster. Please read the following at your convenience
as I
> > >>think you will find it to be interesting (especially the mention of
Robert
> > >>Fisk who covers the Middle East for the Independent Newspaper in the
UK as
> > >>Mr. Fisk's perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict is excellent).
If
> > >>interested further, you can access a recent radio NPR interview with
Mr.
> > >>Fisk by following the instructions which are included below as well.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:11 PM
> > >>Subject: Region in Conflict (Rebellion in the Israeli Army about
Serving
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>the Occupied Terrorities)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Ms. Schaefer,
> > >>
> > >>As you are the senior producer of "Region in Conflict", I thought that
you
> > >>might find this email to be of interest (could you forward such to
> > >>Ms.Banfield if possible). Ashleigh Banfield (and "Region in Conflict")
has
> > >>been excellent. Are you going to cover the following (which is what
BBC
> > >>
> > >had
> > >
> > >>as part of their "World News" coverage in the USA yesterday on PBS)
about
> > >>the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about reservists not wanting to
serve
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>the territories)?:
> > >>
> > >
> >
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/1795362.s
t
> > >m
> > >
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: craig...@nbc.com
> > >>Cc: ashleigh...@msnbc.com
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:23 PM
> > >>Subject: Fw: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the
USA
> > >>Earlier Today
> > >>Even though she seems to be pro-Israel, Ashleigh has still been fair
thus
> > >>far in reporting both sides in the Arab v. Israeli conflict as I look
> > >>forward to seeing her additional shows... However, it would have been
very
> > >>informative if she could have interviewed Robert Fisk who is a
reporter
> > >>based in Beirut and covers the Middle East for the Independent
newspaper
> > >>(http://www.independent.co.uk) in the UK as he was recently
interviewed
> > >>
> > >(on
> > >
> > >>January 25th, 2002) for the "To the Point" program on National Public
> > >>
> > >Radio
> > >
> > >>(NPR) as his perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict was
excellent.
> > >>
> > >>If interested, Ashleigh (and/or her producers) could listen to Mr.
Fisk's
> > >>interview from that "To the Point" program by accessing
> > >>
> > >http://www.kcrw.org
> > >
> > >>and clicking on "To the Point" and then clicking on the January 25th,
2002
> > >>broadcast (Real Player 7 which can be downloaded for free from
> > >>http://www.real.com is needed in order to listen to Mr. Fisk's
interview).
> > >>Also, some of Mr. Fisk's recent articles are included below. So is
> > >>
> > >Ashleigh
> > >
> > >>going to cover the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about not wanting to
> > >>
> > >serve
> > >
> > >>in the occupied terroritories) that aired on BBC World News this
evening
> > >>(Friday, February 1st, 2002) as the following article is about such?:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >>
> > >>There is also an excellent opinion piece (included below) which
mentioned
> > >>how Ariel Sharon is the problem (especially with how he is wanted as a
war
> > >>criminal in Belgium for his involvement in allowing the Palestinians
to be
> > >>slaughtered at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon).
> > >>
> > >>If peace is not reached ASAP between the Israelis and the
Palestinians,
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>USA is most likely (and unfortunately) going to experience even more
> > >>
> > >tragic
> > >
> > >>terrorism as continuing to support Israel (with three billion dollars
a
> > >>year) is not worth the cost. American bombs and similar fall on the
> > >>Palestinians, and the Arab world (to include Bin Laden) knows it. Why
> > >>doesn't Congress use the "power of the purse" to cut aid to Israel in
> > >>
> > >order
> > >
> > >>to force it to adopt the Mitchell Plan which calls for an end to the
> > >>settlements in the occupied terrorities.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:56 PM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk is Excellent with his coverage for the
Independent...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=117593
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116255
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116256
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116073
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116349
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:03 AM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Hi Chris,
> > >>
> > >>Check out what Robert Fisk has to say about the Middle East as he
reflects
> > >>my position as well (you can hear his interview by accessing
www.kcrw.org
> > >>and click on "To the Point" and access the January 25th, 2002 program
as
> > >>Robert Fisk is a reporter for the Independent newspaper in the UK. You
can
> > >>listen to his recent interview from January 25th, 2002 on "To the
Point"
> > >>
> > >by
> > >
> > >>accessing http://www.moretothepoint.com as well...
> > >>
> > >>Check out the line-up at the following Web site for that KCRW FM 89.9
> > >>
> > >radio
> > >
> > >>station in Los Angeles:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.kcrw.org
> > >>
> > >>http://moretothepoint.com
> > >>
> > >>Click on January 25th....
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: newse...@independent.co.uk
> > >>Cc: rober...@independent.co.uk
> > >>Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:57 PM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the USA
> > >>Earlier Today
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Fisk,
> > >>
> > >>I am emailing you to let you know that you were absolutely excellent
in
> > >>presenting your points during the Middle East segment with the "To the
> > >>Point" radio program via NPI earlier today in the United States. I
> > >>completely agree with you about the Arab v. Israeli situation and
> > >>
> > >America's
> > >
> > >>bias with such. I just wish more radio and television programs would
have
> > >>you on as a guest here in the USA. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby
(along
> > >>with many pro-Israel Jewish supporters in the US Congress-which is a
> > >>conflict of interest from my perspective especially when they sit on
> > >>
> > >foreign
> > >
> > >>relations committees and make policy decisions concerning America's
> > >>
> > >ongoing
> > >
> > >>support for Israel) influences the US government to provide three
billion
> > >>dollars a year in order to facilitate Israel's ongoing brutalization
of
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>Palestinian people (which has contributed to tragic terrorism such as
the
> > >>World Trade Center disaster). If America doesn't address such ASAP,
one
> > >>
> > >can
> > >
> > >>only expect further terrorism which is unacceptable.
> > >>
> > >>With kindest regards,
> > >>
> > >>James Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17769
> > >>
> > >>By Mujtaba Ali
> > >>In their submission "Palestinian leader fosters global terrorism"
(Daily
> > >>Bruin, Viewpoint, Dec. 6, 2001), Benjamin Nabati and Jacob Zakaria
suggest
> > >>that the leadership of Yasser Arafat is the only obstacle impeding
hopes
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>peace in the Middle East.
> > >>
> > >>What they fail to acknowledge, however, is the sadistic nature of and
> > >>history of atrocities committed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon.
> > >>
> > >The
> > >
> > >>writers state, "If (Arafat) had delivered, the attacks of the intifada
of
> > >>the past 15 months would not have occurred." What the writers do not
> > >>
> > >mention
> > >
> > >>is that Sharon himself provoked the recent onset of violence when he
and
> > >>
> > >an
> > >
> > >>armed entourage visited a site holy to both Arabs and Israelis last
> > >>September.
> > >>
> > >>Over the years, Sharon has acquired an infamous reputation as a
violent
> > >>
> > >man
> > >
> > >>who feels the military is the only solution to political issues.
Sharon,
> > >>with his involvement in the Israeli Defense Force, has been practicing
> > >>state-sponsored terrorism for the past 50 years.
> > >>
> > >>In the summer of 1953, Sharon built the notorious IDF terrorist group,
> > >>
> > >known
> > >
> > >>as Unit 101, whose main purpose was to conduct "retaliatory strikes"
> > >>
> > >against
> > >
> > >>the neighboring Arab states. Unit 101 was generally independent from
the
> > >>regular IDF forces and was responsible for many atrocities, including
the
> > >>massacres of civilians and the destruction of villages in the
Jordanian
> > >>
> > >West
> > >
> > >>Bank. Most notorious was the raid and destruction of the Qibya village
on
> > >>Oct. 14, 1953 in which 40 homes occupied by Arab families were blown
up
> > >>without warning. More than 50 innocent men, women and children lost
their
> > >>lives.
> > >>
> > >>In the 1956 Suez War in Egypt, Sharon employed ruthless tactics and
was
> > >>charged with committing war crimes in his execution of Egyptian POWs.
His
> > >>actions led IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan to force Sharon's
withdrawal
> > >>
> > >from
> > >
> > >>Egypt.
> > >>
> > >>Sharon was recalled to military service in the October 1973 War, where
he
> > >>led several operations. During the Great Bitter Lake Battle, which led
to
> > >>the crossing of the Suez Canal towards mainland Egypt, Sharon again
> > >>committed war crimes against Egyptians, and once again clashed with
the
> > >>chief of staff and defense minister, resulting in his dismissal from
the
> > >>IDF.
> > >>
> > >>Upon being appointed Israeli Defense Minister in 1981, Sharon was held
> > >>responsible for his involvement in the infamous massacre at the Sabra
and
> > >>Shatilla refugee camps in southern Lebanon on Sept. 16, 1982. Sharon
and
> > >>then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin called for the murderous
> > >>
> > >rampage
> > >
> > >>of innocent, unarmed Palestinian refugees - mostly women, children and
the
> > >>elderly.
> > >>
> > >>Western journalists who reported the incident described in horrifying
> > >>
> > >detail
> > >
> > >>the piles of dead men, raped and mutilated women, and murdered
children.
> > >>
> > >The
> > >
> > >>International Committee of the Red Cross reported 2,400 fatalities in
the
> > >>massacre. This figure was a modest estimate of the true number of
lives
> > >>lost, since many of the victims were buried in mass graves dug by the
> > >>Israeli army and its ally, a Lebanese-Christian militia.
> > >>
> > >>On Dec. 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the
> > >>
> > >massacre
> > >
> > >>and declared it to be an act of genocide. The rape of Sabra and
Shatilla
> > >>earned Sharon the condemnation of the world as well as denunciation by
the
> > >>Israeli parliament, the Knesset. He was forced to resign as Defense
> > >>
> > >Minister
> > >
> > >>in 1983.
> > >>
> > >>The number of times Israel has been condemned by the United Nations
should
> > >>serve as an indication of the type of belligerent activity it carries
out.
> > >>Many of the U.N. resolutions against Israel were passed unanimously -
the
> > >>United States, Israel's longtime ally, was among the few countries
> > >>
> > >opposing
> > >
> > >>the resolutions.
> > >>
> > >>Nabati and Zakaria state: "Israelis do not intentionally go after
> > >>Palestinian civilians. The Israeli Defense Force gives more than 48
hours
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>warning time before a building verified as housing terrorist functions
is
> > >>destroyed, to clear away."
> > >>
> > >>This statement does not explain the death of 11-year-old Khalil
> > >>
> > >al-Mughrabi
> > >
> > >>who was playing soccer with a group of children on July 7, 2001, when
a
> > >>burst of gunfire hit him in the head, killing him and wounding two of
his
> > >>friends, ages 10 and 12.
> > >>
> > >>The IDF terrorist who committed this murder was vindicated by the
Israeli
> > >>Military Advocate General's office as having "acted with restraint and
> > >>control" in an attempt to disperse nearby protesters by "firing live
> > >>
> > >gunfire
> > >
> > >>into an open area distant from the rioters." Those bullets fired by
the
> > >>soldier somehow found their way to a playground and into an innocent
boy's
> > >>head. This is not an isolated incident. It is among the hundreds of
> > >>terrorist acts committed by the IDF on a regular basis.
> > >>
> > >>The aforementioned quote neither explains the numbers of fatalities
since
> > >>the start of the present conflict, statistics which speak for
themselves.
> > >>
> > >Of
> > >
> > >>the approximately 961 people who have died in the past 15 months, 739
have
> > >>been Palestinian; 152 of whom were under the age of 18.
> > >>
> > >>So, after this dose of easily verifiable evidence, employ some
rational
> > >>thought and decide who the aggressor in this conflict really is:
Sharon -
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>sadistic butcher, currently on trial in Belgium for war crimes,
condemned
> > >>
> > >by
> > >
> > >>the international community as well as the Israeli people; or Arafat,
who
> > >>had arrested 180 people in the week following the Jerusalem suicide
> > >>
> > >bombing
> > >
> > >>in December, and who (along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin) won
the
> > >>Nobel Peace Prize in 1994?
> > >>
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >From: Looking for the truth
> > >Newsgroups:
> >
>talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
,
> > >soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 2:12 PM
> > >Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> > >
> > >
> > >this is how USA get repaid by its "frieds"
> > >
> > >Zionist Terror Against the United States
> > >
> > >Americans have also suffered from Zionist terror. In fact, Israel has
> > >committed a number of acts of war against the United States.
> > >
> > >Israel has a long record of terrorism against the United States going
all
> > >the way back to 1954. In that year, the Israel government plotted to
blow up
> > >American installations in Cairo and Alexandria and blame it on Egyptian
> > >nationals. By chance the plot failed and was uncovered. It was named
the
> > >Lavon Affair after the man who supposedly set up the terrorism, Pinhas
> > >Lavon, the Israeli Defense Chief. He resigned in 1955 over the
incident. 7
> > >
> > >In 1967, Israel purposefully attacked with unmarked jet fighters and
torpedo
> > >boats, the U.S.S. Liberty, an American Navy vessel of the Sinai
Peninsula,
> > >even machine gunning the deployed life rafts of the ship. The attack
killed
> > >31 American servicemen and wounded over 170. 8 They sought to sink the
ship,
> > >kill all the Americans and blame it on the Egyptians so they could have
> > >American support to conquer larger areas of the Arab world.
> > >
> > >The attack on the Liberty was nothing short of a vicious act of war
against
> > >the United States by Israel. In spite of the fact that U.S. Secretary
of
> > >State Dean Rusk and navy chief Admiral Moorer said that the attack on
the
> > >USS Liberty by Israel was deliberate, the all-powerful Zionist Lobby
> > >prevented a formal Congressional investigation. If the Lobby can even
cover
> > >up horrendous Israeli crimes against America, it's no wonder they can
cover
> > >up Israel's endless crimes against the Palestinians. Yet, after the
Liberty
> > >attack America didn't even reduce our billions of dollars of aid, in
fact
> > >the story quickly vanished from the news after a few short days.
> > >
> > >In 1986 Israel actually caused us to wrongly go to war and militarily
attack
> > >another nation. The Mossad planted a transmitter in Tripoli, Libya and
then
> > >broadcast terrorist messages in Libyan code indicating Libyan
responsibility
> > >for killing two Americans in the bombing of the La Belle discothèque in
> > >Germany. 9 (It was later proven that Libya had nothing to do with the
> > >bombing) By use of this fraud, Israel induced the American bombing of
Libya.
> > >American bombs wrecked havoc there. One of those killed was the infant
> > >daughter of the Libyan President. It is certainly a dastardly act of
war
> > >against a nation to induce it into wrongly attacking another nation.
Only a
> > >truly evil enemy of America would do such a thing.
> > >
> > >Every Palestinian and Arab is aware that Israel's half century of
terror
> > >could never have occurred without the active financial, military, and
> > >diplomatic support of the United States. They know that the Jewish
Lobby has
> > >control of American Mideast Policy and the Zionists can get whatever
they
> > >want from Congress on issues important to them.
> > >
> > >It was American support of Israel's brutal invasion and occupation of
> > >Lebanon in the 1980s that led directly to the bombing of the U.S.
> > >
> > >Marine contingent, killing 300 American young men.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > >----
> > >
> > >
> > >>http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17630
> > >>
> > >>By Gustavo Gutierrez
> > >>The origins and myths of Thanksgiving are ironic indeed. Most educated
> > >>Americans are unaware of the following fact: on Nov. 25, 1492, the
Vatican
> > >>declared a "day of thanksgiving" to commemorate not only the fall of
> > >>
> > >Granada
> > >
> > >>by the "infidel" Muslim Moors, but the subsequent expulsion of both
Jews
> > >>
> > >and
> > >
> > >>Muslims alike. After seven centuries of Islamic rule on the Iberian
> > >>Peninsula, the Christian kingdoms of Spain unified under Ferdinand and
> > >>Isabelle began an era that would witness one of the greatest human
rights
> > >>atrocities in the world.
> > >>
> > >>Initially, a "day of thanksgiving" did not commemorate the indigenous
> > >>peoples of Massachusetts and the religious zealots known as the
Pilgrims
> > >>coming together with mutual respect for one another sitting at the
same
> > >>table. This is a cultural myth narrative used to indoctrinate
Americans
> > >>
> > >like
> > >
> > >>myself into believing in a sugar-coated version of American ethnocide
or,
> > >>should I say, holocaust. Furthermore, most people are unaware of this
> > >>
> > >little
> > >
> > >>known fact: Thanksgiving did not become a national holiday until the
> > >>
> > >Lincoln
> > >
> > >>administration in the 1860s.
> > >>
> > >>With this historical knowledge now laid out, let's examine the current
> > >>controversy in the Daily Bruin. Many people are upset that the Daily
Bruin
> > >>would allow the publication of a turkey bearing the words "Free
Palestine"
> > >>in a section of the newspaper not reserved for opinion content.
However,
> > >>
> > >art
> > >
> > >>has always been and will continue to be used as means of political
> > >>statement.
> > >>
> > >>To denigrate art as being mindless, numbing entertainment is a great
> > >>disservice. The "Free Palestine" turkey is a prime example. We are all
> > >>entitled to our own opinions and we should learn to "agree to
disagree."
> > >>
> > >To
> > >
> > >>label sentiments or opinions you may find objectionable, especially
> > >>sentiments speaking out against the actions of the Israeli government
as
> > >>anti-Semitic, is wrong. An anti-Semite is one who holds prejudicial
views
> > >>towards individuals who religiously or culturally are Jewish. The
> > >>anti-Semite will use his or her biases to oppress the Jew. This is not
> > >>always the case for people who support Palestine.
> > >>
> > >>I believe in both a "Free Palestine" and a state of Israel. How can I
> > >>possibly be labeled an anti-Semite? I am opposed to the treatment of
> > >>Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in the hands of the Israeli
> > >>government and their military machine. I am however, not opposed to
the
> > >>existence of Israel or those who practice the tenants of Judaism. This
> > >>distinction needs to be made clear and obvious. Israel can alleviate
the
> > >>problems it faces with its Palestinian neighbors if its political
> > >>
> > >leadership
> > >
> > >>is willing to compromise. The very term "Occupied Territories" infers
that
> > >>Israel infringed on the territorial integrity of Arab nations like
Jordan
> > >>(West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip) since 1967.
> > >>
> > >>The Islamic world must accept the fact that Israel exists, but
Israelis
> > >>
> > >must
> > >
> > >>respect the rights of Palestinians and honor their call for
> > >>self-determination and a chance at creating a viable nation-state.
Both
> > >>sides are not innocent and both have played the role of "villain."
> > >>
> > >>It is imperative that Israel finds a solution to this problem of three
> > >>decades - after all, peace with the Palestinians is one effective way
of
> > >>combating America's war on terrorism.
> > >>
> > >>This applies to the other side of the conflict as well. It is
intolerable
> > >>that a historically persecuted group would perpetuate the same kind of
> > >>persecution that has long been aimed at them. Although the Koran
condemns
> > >>the religious persecution of "peoples of the Book" which would include
> > >>
> > >Jews
> > >
> > >>and Christians alike, we see anti-Semitic attacks aimed at the
remaining
> > >>10,000 Iranians who culturally or religiously adhere to Judaism. The
> > >>
> > >Iranian
> > >
> > >>Jewish community is an ancient one, and it is a tragedy that a nation
> > >>governed supposedly by the tenants of Islam would purge its population
of
> > >>the religious and ethnic diversity that once characterized Iran prior
to
> > >>1979.
> > >>
> > >>The "Free Palestine" turkey is an example of art that provokes
thought. We
> > >>should realize the opinions of one individual student do not
necessarily
> > >>represent the views or opinions of this school publication or the
campus
> > >>
> > >as
> > >
> > >>a whole. We should also realize that no government is more morally
> > >>
> > >righteous
> > >
> > >>than another is. It is about time that we realize that oppression is
> > >>oppression. All governments and all groups of people at one point in
> > >>
> > >history
> > >
> > >>have committed atrocities towards another group. The oppressor isn't
> > >>
> > >always
> > >
> > >>a Protestant, Anglo-American, heterosexual male; the oppressor can be
> > >>anyone, including an Israeli Jew.
> > >>
> > >>If a decade ago we could speak out against legal apartheid in South
> > >>
> > >Africa,
> > >
> > >>what makes Israel any different? If speaking out against Israel is
deemed
> > >>unacceptable, the question becomes why? Is America sensitive to the
fact
> > >>that it initially, knowingly turned a blind eye to the near
annihilation
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>European Jewry half a century ago? If this is the case, that is an
> > >>unfortunate incident but that does not justify censorship of any kind.
> > >>Sometimes the truth can be a little harsh.
> > >>
> > >>The next time you find the simple phrase "Free Palestine" displayed
> > >>anywhere, keep this in mind. Isn't it problematic that 18 percent of
the
> > >>Israeli population that is Arab is subjugated and relegated to
> > >>
> > >second-class
> > >
> > >>citizenship?
> > >>
> > >>Isn't it problematic that with the formation of a Jewish state,
indigenous
> > >>Palestinians native to the land base were forcibly removed from their
> > >>
> > >homes
> > >
> > >>without proper compensation? Isn't it ironic that Israel wages its war
> > >>against unarmed and poorly equipped Palestinians with American money
and
> > >>American-made military machinery and weapons while the Palestinians
are
> > >>funded by monies from "rogue" states like Iraq and Iran? Remember that
a
> > >>"rogue" state is only labeled a "rogue" state when it openly defies
the
> > >>strategic interests of the U.S.
> > >>
> > >>If the U.S. were deeply concerned with the plight of women in the
> > >>
> > >"volatile"
> > >
> > >>Middle East, wouldn't we also be pointing our "morally righteous"
fingers
> > >>
> > >at
> > >
> > >>the Saudis? After all, one of the most repressive regimes in the
region
> > >>happens to be one of our closest Arab allies. But wait, we are more
> > >>interested in maintaining our assured supply of petroleum reserves
than
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>flourishing of democracy in the "volatile" Middle East.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>"BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > >>
> > >>>"Jim Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > >>>
> > >>news:<Nbpb8.2274$tu6.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > >>
> > >>>>Didn't you know that the USA taxpayers paid millions of their
> > >>>>hard-earned dollars to Israel (after the scud attacks) in order to
> > >>>>
> > >keep
> > >
> > >>>more bullshit
> > >>>Israeli orders keep US jobs and bring profits but the bullshits
> > >>>complain
> > >>>ungrateful scumm bar
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>it out of the Gulf War conflict (such was used in the relocation of
> > >>>>
> > >>Russian
> > >>
> > >>>>Jews to Israel).
> > >>>>
> > >>>the biggest influx of jews from Soviets was in 1991-1992
> > >>>
> > >>In accordance with the deal done between the USA and Israel as
mentioned
> > >>above..
> > >>
> > >>>Morris, shut up
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>If we want to prevent future terrorism in the USA
> > >>>>(which is most likely going to happen yet again tragically but
> > >>>>
> > >hopefully
> > >
> > >>>>not), it is time to cut the three billion dollar annual US taxpayer
> > >>>>dollar support for the brutal apartheid state of Israel
> > >>>>
> > >>>If you want to PROMOTE future terrorism in the USA keep on giving
> > >>>military money to the Arabs
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>(read the
> > >>>>opinion piece about Ariel Sharon from the UCLA Daily Bruin newspaper
> > >>>>which is included below):
> > >>>>
> > >>>immature teenage student wannabe diarrhea verbalis happily deleted in
> > >>>the fight for internet pollution prevention
> > >>>;l
> > >>>those students are sure assholes
> > >>>poor America who will rule you?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >"Tull" <jethr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > >news:3c6dd4b6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > >
> > >>On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:34 -0500, Roger Alexander <rla...@kih.net>
> > >>wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Is it just us or is this story in today's Jeruslaem Post racist?
Sounds
> > >>>similar
> > >>>to upity whites objecting to "blacks" or other people of color moving
> > >>>into the
> > >>>neighborhood.
> > >>>
> > >>>Note the stated objections from the Jewish community in responce to
> > >>>Arabs
> > >>>moving into their cozy little "Jewish only" enclave: "....they are
> > >>>unsuitable
> > >>>for living in the community and their social and communal integration
> > >>>will not
> > >>>succeed." Note these "Jewish communites" - more aptly called
colonies -
> > >>>are
> > >>>built on illegally confiscated Palestinian land in the first place.
> > >>>
> > >>>What would be the reaction if Jews were to move into a non-Jewish
> > >>>neighborhood
> > >>>and the people there were to say: "....they are unsuitable for living
in
> > >>>the
> > >>>community and their social and communal integration will not
succeed."
> > >>>It is
> > >>>rather evident this would cause a huge uproar, and rightfully so. So
why
> > >>>is it
> > >>>that when this type of discrimination and bigotry is directed towards
> > >>>Arabs
> > >>>that nothing is ever said? Are Arabs "children of a lesser God" and
thus
> > >>>not
> > >>>entitled to the same human rights and dignity as anyone else?
> > >>>
> > >>>We think it is important that the Jewish communiy examine the racism
in
> > >>>its
> > >>>midst and rectify this problem. If you want something for yourself,
you
> > >>>better
> > >>>want it for your neighbor first.
> > >>>
> > >>>Note, the term "Israeli Arab" is just a term used to lable
Palestinians
> > >>>who
> > >>>have had the so called Israeli citizenship imposed upon them.
> > >>>
> > >>>Read on........
> > >>>---------------
> > >>>
> > >>>Israeli Arab family rejected by Jewish neighborhood
> > >>>
> > >>>By Dan Izenberg
> > >>>
> >
>>>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.43388.html
> > >>>
> > >>>An Israeli Arab family's bid to build a home in the exclusively
Jewish
> > >>>neighborhood of Katzir is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Jewish
> > >>>settlement
> > >>>movement in Israel from within, the head of the Katzir-Harish local
> > >>>council,
> > >>>Dubi Sandrov said today.
> > >>>
> > >>>Sandrov said he "wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the
leaders
> > >>>of the
> > >>>Palestinian Authority" are behind the request of Adel and Iman
Ka'adan
> > >>>for a
> > >>>plot of land to build their home in Katzir. "Iranian or Saudi money
is
> > >>>likely
> > >>>funding the entire campaign," he added.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Ka'adans submitted a request to build a home in Katzir on
> > >>>state-owned land
> > >>>which the Israel Lands Authority gave to the Katzir Cooperative
Society
> > >>>via the
> > >>>Jewish Agency. The society's membership committee rejected the
request
> > >>>of the
> > >>>Ka'adan family, from nearby Baka el-Gharbiya, for a plot of land.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Ka'adans, sponsored by the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel,
> > >>>petitioned the High Court of Justice, which ruled last year that
Katzir
> > >>>could
> > >>>not reject the Ka'adans on religious or ethnic grounds.
> > >>>
> > >>>Following the ruling, the membership committee heard and rejected the
> > >>>Ka'adans'
> > >>>request for a second time on the grounds that "they are unsuitable
for
> > >>>living
> > >>>in the community and their social and communal integration will not
> > >>>succeed."
> > >>>
> > >>>===============================================
> > >>>The Kaadan's were the family who got a ruling from the Israeli High
> > >>>Court
> > >>>that they could petition the Jewish town set up near Nazareth to
> > >>>buy a plot there because the discrimination against them in their
Arab
> > >>>town
> > >>>limited their education and other opportunities.
> > >>>This latest decision is arrant racism, which we have come to expect
from
> > >>>Israelis
> > >>>but it is still nauseous. Jews in the US have forcefully made
Americans
> > >>>
> > >>>stop such discrimination, which is entirely right, but for Jews in
> > >>>Israel
> > >>>to practice such open discrimination is worse than nauseous. It
stands
> > >>>for
> > >>>the proposition that every country but that of the Jews should
practice
> > >>>antidiscrimination, while the Jews have the right to be racist as all
> > >>>Hell.
> > >>>For shame.
> > >>>RLA
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> Same as the old days is South Africa. Whites only suburbs. Blacks
> > >>only allowed in as shit workers.
> > >>Tull

"BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> "Eddie" <ed...@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:<62nb8.11029$Nv5.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> > No the palestinians are not supposed to pay for what happened to Jews
during
> > WWII in Europe.
> > Incase you didn't know David, Jews have a real history in Israel that
> > predates the creation of Islam.
>
> > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c6d57eb...@news.rcn.com...
> > > And according to you Zionist wackos, the Palestinians are supposed to
> > > pay for what happened to Jews during WWII in Europe, right???
>
> da...@erols.com (David Goldman) wrote in message
news:<3c5450b3...@news.rcn.com>...
> > Jawohl!! Mussen Sie Lebensraum machen fur der Zionistischen Reich!
> > Sieg Heil, der Fuhrer Sharon mit seinem SS Fuhrer PereSS! Machen Sie
> > Palestina Arabrein!
>
> dunno if anyone else except Goldman and his Arab journalists which
> publish praises to Hitler enjoy these das reich hysterical shouts and
> hysterical weirdo comparisons
> if he thinks it's an argument then he insults all--jews, religious and
> non-religious, zionists and non-zionists and non-jews and shames
> himself if he IS or ISN'T a jew
> Hitler made no distinctions about jews and their allegiances..
> it's becoming pathological of Goldman
> sometimes in all seriousness I think if he tries an SS uniform on..
>


"PNEWS.ORG" <ch...@fdn.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.020217...@shell.fdn.com...
> Jim: Any cost to U.S. taxpayers is more than compensated for by the money
> which Israel pumps back into the U.S. economy with purchases, which exceed
> the amount received. It is essentially a subsidy to U.S. business. Now we
> may not always like those businesses, but that is the real issue, not what
> Israel gets and gives back - besides intangibles, like a really "secure"
> presence for the U.S. military if ever needed (included those there now).
> Israel is a partner. When I was sent over for one of the wars there, the
> U.S. was there in Israel.
>
> Instead of repeating old false cliches about Sharon, better for you to
> understand the nature of Israel's vibrant democracy and how Arafat was
> responsible for getting Sharon elected and how today in Israel most of the
> so-called "peace camp" are now "Second Thoughters" about where they stand
> and many of them voted for Sharon, thanks to Arafat and the PLO.
>
> Rather than blame Israel, which is false, for Terrorism, put the blame
> where it belongs on militant Islamists and the nature of a very militant
> and aggressive religion.
>
>
> TheGolem
> http://pnews.org/
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Jim Morris wrote:
>
> > Why doesn't Israel follow the Mitchell Plan which called for an end to
the
> > Israeli settlements in the occupied territories? Because the Israeli
> > government wants to KEEP those illegal settlements...
> >
> > Israel is an apartheid state with a war criminal (in Ariel Sharon) as
its
> > leader, and the USA hypocritically supports such (when Sharon is still
> > wanted for his "Butcher of Lebanon" war crimes in Belgium). The USA made
> > sure that Milosevic rightfully gets tried (at the The Hague) as the war
> > criminal that he is. Yet, President Bush uses a convenient double
standard
> > to "look the other way" with Sharon... No wonder the Arab world hates
the
> > USA and has marked us as a target for terrorism. Check out the opinion
piece
> > (included below) about the war crimes that Sharon is wanted for in
> > Belgium...
> >
> > The three billion USA taxpayer dollar support that is given annually to
> > Israel would be better spent at home in the USA. Instead, such
multi-billion
> > dollar support to Israel has contributed to terrorism within our borders
> > such as what happened with the World Trade Center disaster. As a result,
we
> > have also had our civil rights diminished (such as with the Patriot Act
> > passed in Congress after the World Trade Center bombing) and increased
> > security (at airports and similar) which has been an inconvenience as
> > well... The USA support of Israel is NOT worth the cost, and now
pro-Israel
> > (Jewish) people (in the State and Defense Departments as well as in the
US
> > Congress) are in a blatant conflict of interest (from my objective and
> > unbiased perspective) by pushing for the USA to attack Iraq (and
possibly
> > Iran as well) for the benefit of Israel.. Those same people support (and
> > vote in the US Congress) to keep the billions of dollars of USA taxpayer
> > dollar aid going for Israel each year. If such isn't a blatant conflict
of
> > interest, then what is it?! When the communication director (for US
> > Congresswoman McKinley) brought such up recently (about Israel's
occupation
> > of the US Congress as to include members of the foreign relations
> > committees), he was asked to resign.. Again, I ask the American people:
> > Should one percent of the population have so much control of the USA
> > government (and the resulting US Policy which is flawed because of such
a
> > blatant conflict of interest)?! I think not. Heck, if we had
German-American
> > members of the US Congress voting in favor of the Nazis in World War 2
(or
> > before) and getting them US taxpayer dollars as well, would we have
> > tolerated such? I would hope not...
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net>
> > Newsgroups:
> >
talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,
> > soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 2:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> >
> >
> > > Listen to the spin from this guy as it is a known fact that Isael
> > basically
> > > "blackmailed" the USA (taxpayers) into paying millions to settle more
> > > Russian Jews into Israel in return for Israel not to attack Iraq after
the
> > > Scuds hit (as Israel attacking Iraq then would have broken up the
> > > international coalition). Such was even more blown money that the USA
had
> > to
> > > pay the apartheid state of Israel because of the pro-Israeli lobby in
the
> > > USA.
> > >
> > > Also, how many US Congressmen (including US senators are pro-Israel
> > because
> > > they are Jewish and vote in favor of ongoing support of Israel which
is a
> > > blatant conflict of interest as Jewish people compose about 1 percent
of
> > the
> > > US population yet they compose about 50 percent of the US Congress).
How
> > so
> > > as there seems to be some kind of agenda there? Also, Israel is trying
to
> > > get the USA to attack Iraq for Israel's benefit... Cut the billions of
> > > dollars of annual USA taxpayer aid to Israel, and we will most likely
see
> > > our terrorism problem evaporate... The USA has no business taking
sides in
> > a
> > > "holy war" (just because of a strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA)
which
> > is
> > > contributing to further terrorism within our borders that we don't
need as
> > > such is obviously unacceptable as well.
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: der...@alhayat.com
> > > Cc: ra...@alhayat.com ; ledi...@alhayat.com ; ma...@alhayat.com ;
> > > mus...@alhayat.com ; zou...@alhayat.com ; iska...@alhayat.com ;
> > > bcha...@alhayat.com ; ba...@alhayat.com ; gcha...@alhayat.com ;
> > > geo...@alhayat.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:24 AM
> > > Subject: Fw: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Ms. Dergham,
> > >
> > > You were absolutely accurate with what you said on the ABC Nightline
> > > television news program (in the USA) last night with regard to the
double
> > > standard of Israel having nuclear weapons. Also, your comments on an
> > earlier
> > > Nightline were excellent as well (with regard to the biased pro-Israel
> > > policy by the USA that contributed to the World Trade Center
disaster). I
> > > think you might find the following to be of interest (to include the
> > opinion
> > > pieces below which appeared in the UCLA Daily Bruin university
newspaper).
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ---- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: onthe...@foxnews.com
> > > greta.va...@foxnews.com
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:13 PM
> > > Subject: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Greta,
> > >
> > > How about Ariel Sharon and what he did with the massacre at the
> > Palestinian
> > > refugee camps in Lebanon (as mentioned in the opinion piece included
> > below).
> > > Why such a double standard? Especially when Sharon is wanted for such
war
> > > crimes in Belgium, and you don't even cover it.. Nor do any of the
other
> > USA
> > > networks from what I have seen thus far...
> > >
> > > With kindest regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: tony...@foxnews.com
> > > Cc: Congressman McKeon ; in...@kyl.senate.gov ;
sen...@kennedy.senate.gov
> > ;
> > > sen...@akaka.senate.gov ; senato...@byrd.senate.gov ;
> > > senator_...@domenici.senate.gov ; sen...@dorgan.senate.gov ;
> > > di...@durbin.senate.gov ; senato...@leahy.senate.gov ;
> > > blanche...@lincoln.senate.gov ; senat...@lott.senate.gov ;
> > > senato...@lugar.senate.gov ; john_...@mccain.senate.gov ;
> > > sen...@mcconnell.senate.gov ; comm...@foxnews.com ;
com...@foxnews.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:12 AM
> > >
> > > Subject: Many Americans Not in Support of What was Just Mentioned on
the
> > Fox
> > > News Channel
> > >
> > >
> > > With regard to Senator Kyl's comments just now with Tony Snow on the
Fox
> > > News Channel (about our ongoing support for the Israeli Army's
continued
> > > brutalization of the Palestinian people which has tragically
contributed
> > to
> > > terrorism being experienced within the USA which is absolutely
> > > unacceptable), many Americans such as myself want the US Government to
cut
> > > or substantially reduce the three billion dollar annual support to
Israel
> > as
> > > our terrorism problem would most likely soon evaporate thereafter.
Europe
> > is
> > > not alone in its condemnation of the apartheid policy that Israel has
> > > against the Palestian people.
> > >
> > > Please review the recent opinion pieces (which appeared in the UCLA
Daily
> > > Bruin newspaper) and the radio interview of Robert Fisk (who is based
in
> > > Beirut and covers the Middle East for the UK Independent newspaper)
which
> > > are both included below. In closing, the USA has no business taking
sides
> > in
> > > a "holy war" as such has been taking place for years because of the
strong
> > > pro-Israel lobby in our country.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: mma...@hotmail.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:11 PM
> > > Subject: Your Opinion Piece (about Sharon) in the UCLA Daily Bruin was
> > > Excellent...
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Ali,
> > >
> > > As I am not Jewish (Israeli) nor Palestian, I think you will find the
> > > following to be of interest (especially the mention of Robert Fisk who
is
> > a
> > > reporter based in Beirut who covers the Middle East for the
Independent
> > > newspaper in the UK as his perspective on the Middle East is excellent
and
> > > can be listened to as well via the Web site provided below). Your
opinion
> > > piece about the brutal nature of Ariel Sharon (which is included
below)
> > from
> > > the UCLA Daily Bruin was excellent. You might want to check out the
> > > following Web sites as well:
> > >
> > > http://www.bitterlemons.org
> > >
> > > http://www.memri.org
> > >
> > > http://www.debka.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: pressin...@rezapahlavi.org
> > > Cc: rp...@postmark.net
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:58 PM
> > > Subject: Fox News Channel
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Pahlavi,
> > >
> > > I saw your interview moments ago on the Fox News Channel and just
checked
> > > out your interesting Web site (http://www.rezapahlavi.org). Sean
Hannity
> > is
> > > very pro-Israel and apparently wants America to attack Iran in an
attempt
> > to
> > > neutralize Iran for Israel's benefit. I (and many other Americans)
have no
> > > interest in continuing to support Israel as such multi-billion annual
> > > support (by the USA) contributed to the tragic terrorism with the
World
> > > Trade Center disaster. Please read the following at your convenience
as I
> > > think you will find it to be interesting (especially the mention of
Robert
> > > Fisk who covers the Middle East for the Independent Newspaper in the
UK as
> > > Mr. Fisk's perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict is excellent).
If
> > > interested further, you can access a recent radio NPR interview with
Mr.
> > > Fisk by following the instructions which are included below as well.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:11 PM
> > > Subject: Region in Conflict (Rebellion in the Israeli Army about
Serving
> > in
> > > the Occupied Terrorities)
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Ms. Schaefer,
> > >
> > > As you are the senior producer of "Region in Conflict", I thought that
you
> > > might find this email to be of interest (could you forward such to
> > > Ms.Banfield if possible). Ashleigh Banfield (and "Region in Conflict")
has
> > > been excellent. Are you going to cover the following (which is what
BBC
> > had
> > > as part of their "World News" coverage in the USA yesterday on PBS)
about
> > > the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about reservists not wanting to
serve
> > in
> > > the territories)?:
> > >
> >
> >
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/1795362.st
> > m
> >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: craig...@nbc.com
> > > Cc: ashleigh...@msnbc.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:23 PM
> > > Subject: Fw: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the
USA
> > > Earlier Today
> > > Even though she seems to be pro-Israel, Ashleigh has still been fair
thus
> > > far in reporting both sides in the Arab v. Israeli conflict as I look
> > > forward to seeing her additional shows... However, it would have been
very
> > > informative if she could have interviewed Robert Fisk who is a
reporter
> > > based in Beirut and covers the Middle East for the Independent
newspaper
> > > (http://www.independent.co.uk) in the UK as he was recently
interviewed
> > (on
> > > January 25th, 2002) for the "To the Point" program on National Public
> > Radio
> > > (NPR) as his perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict was
excellent.
> > >
> > > If interested, Ashleigh (and/or her producers) could listen to Mr.
Fisk's
> > > interview from that "To the Point" program by accessing
> > http://www.kcrw.org
> > > and clicking on "To the Point" and then clicking on the January 25th,
2002
> > > broadcast (Real Player 7 which can be downloaded for free from
> > > http://www.real.com is needed in order to listen to Mr. Fisk's
interview).
> > > Also, some of Mr. Fisk's recent articles are included below. So is
> > Ashleigh
> > > going to cover the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about not wanting to
> > serve
> > > in the occupied terroritories) that aired on BBC World News this
evening
> > > (Friday, February 1st, 2002) as the following article is about such?:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >
> > > There is also an excellent opinion piece (included below) which
mentioned
> > > how Ariel Sharon is the problem (especially with how he is wanted as a
war
> > > criminal in Belgium for his involvement in allowing the Palestinians
to be
> > > slaughtered at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon).
> > >
> > > If peace is not reached ASAP between the Israelis and the
Palestinians,
> > the
> > > USA is most likely (and unfortunately) going to experience even more
> > tragic
> > > terrorism as continuing to support Israel (with three billion dollars
a
> > > year) is not worth the cost. American bombs and similar fall on the
> > > Palestinians, and the Arab world (to include Bin Laden) knows it. Why
> > > doesn't Congress use the "power of the purse" to cut aid to Israel in
> > order
> > > to force it to adopt the Mitchell Plan which calls for an end to the
> > > settlements in the occupied terrorities.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:56 PM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk is Excellent with his coverage for the
Independent...
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=117593
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116255
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116256
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116073
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116349
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:03 AM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > >
> > > Check out what Robert Fisk has to say about the Middle East as he
reflects
> > > my position as well (you can hear his interview by accessing
www.kcrw.org
> > > and click on "To the Point" and access the January 25th, 2002 program
as
> > > Robert Fisk is a reporter for the Independent newspaper in the UK. You
can
> > > listen to his recent interview from January 25th, 2002 on "To the
Point"
> > by
> > > accessing http://www.moretothepoint.com as well...
> > >
> > > Check out the line-up at the following Web site for that KCRW FM 89.9
> > radio
> > > station in Los Angeles:
> > >
> > > http://www.kcrw.org
> > >
> > > http://moretothepoint.com
> > >
> > > Click on January 25th....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: newse...@independent.co.uk
> > > Cc: rober...@independent.co.uk
> > > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:57 PM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the USA
> > > Earlier Today
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Fisk,
> > >
> > > I am emailing you to let you know that you were absolutely excellent
in
> > > presenting your points during the Middle East segment with the "To the
> > > Point" radio program via NPI earlier today in the United States. I
> > > completely agree with you about the Arab v. Israeli situation and
> > America's
> > > bias with such. I just wish more radio and television programs would
have
> > > you on as a guest here in the USA. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby
(along
> > > with many pro-Israel Jewish supporters in the US Congress-which is a
> > > conflict of interest from my perspective especially when they sit on
> > foreign
> > > relations committees and make policy decisions concerning America's
> > ongoing
> > > support for Israel) influences the US government to provide three
billion
> > > dollars a year in order to facilitate Israel's ongoing brutalization
of
> > the
> > > Palestinian people (which has contributed to tragic terrorism such as
the
> > > World Trade Center disaster). If America doesn't address such ASAP,
one
> > can
> > > only expect further terrorism which is unacceptable.
> > >
> > > With kindest regards,
> > >
> > > James Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17769
> > >
> > > By Mujtaba Ali
> > > In their submission "Palestinian leader fosters global terrorism"
(Daily
> > > Bruin, Viewpoint, Dec. 6, 2001), Benjamin Nabati and Jacob Zakaria
suggest
> > > that the leadership of Yasser Arafat is the only obstacle impeding
hopes
> > of
> > > peace in the Middle East.
> > >
> > > What they fail to acknowledge, however, is the sadistic nature of and
> > > history of atrocities committed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon.
> > The
> > > writers state, "If (Arafat) had delivered, the attacks of the intifada
of
> > > the past 15 months would not have occurred." What the writers do not
> > mention
> > > is that Sharon himself provoked the recent onset of violence when he
and
> > an
> > > armed entourage visited a site holy to both Arabs and Israelis last
> > > September.
> > >
> > > Over the years, Sharon has acquired an infamous reputation as a
violent
> > man
> > > who feels the military is the only solution to political issues.
Sharon,
> > > with his involvement in the Israeli Defense Force, has been practicing
> > > state-sponsored terrorism for the past 50 years.
> > >
> > > In the summer of 1953, Sharon built the notorious IDF terrorist group,
> > known
> > > as Unit 101, whose main purpose was to conduct "retaliatory strikes"
> > against
> > > the neighboring Arab states. Unit 101 was generally independent from
the
> > > regular IDF forces and was responsible for many atrocities, including
the
> > > massacres of civilians and the destruction of villages in the
Jordanian
> > West
> > > Bank. Most notorious was the raid and destruction of the Qibya village
on
> > > Oct. 14, 1953 in which 40 homes occupied by Arab families were blown
up
> > > without warning. More than 50 innocent men, women and children lost
their
> > > lives.
> > >
> > > In the 1956 Suez War in Egypt, Sharon employed ruthless tactics and
was
> > > charged with committing war crimes in his execution of Egyptian POWs.
His
> > > actions led IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan to force Sharon's
withdrawal
> > from
> > > Egypt.
> > >
> > > Sharon was recalled to military service in the October 1973 War, where
he
> > > led several operations. During the Great Bitter Lake Battle, which led
to
> > > the crossing of the Suez Canal towards mainland Egypt, Sharon again
> > > committed war crimes against Egyptians, and once again clashed with
the
> > > chief of staff and defense minister, resulting in his dismissal from
the
> > > IDF.
> > >
> > > Upon being appointed Israeli Defense Minister in 1981, Sharon was held
> > > responsible for his involvement in the infamous massacre at the Sabra
and
> > > Shatilla refugee camps in southern Lebanon on Sept. 16, 1982. Sharon
and
> > > then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin called for the murderous
> > rampage
> > > of innocent, unarmed Palestinian refugees - mostly women, children and
the
> > > elderly.
> > >
> > > Western journalists who reported the incident described in horrifying
> > detail
> > > the piles of dead men, raped and mutilated women, and murdered
children.
> > The
> > > International Committee of the Red Cross reported 2,400 fatalities in
the
> > > massacre. This figure was a modest estimate of the true number of
lives
> > > lost, since many of the victims were buried in mass graves dug by the
> > > Israeli army and its ally, a Lebanese-Christian militia.
> > >
> > > On Dec. 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the
> > massacre
> > > and declared it to be an act of genocide. The rape of Sabra and
Shatilla
> > > earned Sharon the condemnation of the world as well as denunciation by
the
> > > Israeli parliament, the Knesset. He was forced to resign as Defense
> > Minister
> > > in 1983.
> > >
> > > The number of times Israel has been condemned by the United Nations
should
> > > serve as an indication of the type of belligerent activity it carries
out.
> > > Many of the U.N. resolutions against Israel were passed unanimously -
the
> > > United States, Israel's longtime ally, was among the few countries
> > opposing
> > > the resolutions.
> > >
> > > Nabati and Zakaria state: "Israelis do not intentionally go after
> > > Palestinian civilians. The Israeli Defense Force gives more than 48
hours
> > of
> > > warning time before a building verified as housing terrorist functions
is
> > > destroyed, to clear away."
> > >
> > > This statement does not explain the death of 11-year-old Khalil
> > al-Mughrabi
> > > who was playing soccer with a group of children on July 7, 2001, when
a
> > > burst of gunfire hit him in the head, killing him and wounding two of
his
> > > friends, ages 10 and 12.
> > >
> > > The IDF terrorist who committed this murder was vindicated by the
Israeli
> > > Military Advocate General's office as having "acted with restraint and
> > > control" in an attempt to disperse nearby protesters by "firing live
> > gunfire
> > > into an open area distant from the rioters." Those bullets fired by
the
> > > soldier somehow found their way to a playground and into an innocent
boy's
> > > head. This is not an isolated incident. It is among the hundreds of
> > > terrorist acts committed by the IDF on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > The aforementioned quote neither explains the numbers of fatalities
since
> > > the start of the present conflict, statistics which speak for
themselves.
> > Of
> > > the approximately 961 people who have died in the past 15 months, 739
have
> > > been Palestinian; 152 of whom were under the age of 18.
> > >
> > > So, after this dose of easily verifiable evidence, employ some
rational
> > > thought and decide who the aggressor in this conflict really is:
Sharon -
> > a
> > > sadistic butcher, currently on trial in Belgium for war crimes,
condemned
> > by
> > > the international community as well as the Israeli people; or Arafat,
who
> > > had arrested 180 people in the week following the Jerusalem suicide
> > bombing
> > > in December, and who (along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin) won
the
> > > Nobel Peace Prize in 1994?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Looking for the truth
> > Newsgroups:
> >
talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,
> > soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 2:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> >
> >
> > this is how USA get repaid by its "frieds"
> >
> > Zionist Terror Against the United States
> >
> > Americans have also suffered from Zionist terror. In fact, Israel has
> > committed a number of acts of war against the United States.
> >
> > Israel has a long record of terrorism against the United States going
all
> > the way back to 1954. In that year, the Israel government plotted to
blow up
> > American installations in Cairo and Alexandria and blame it on Egyptian
> > nationals. By chance the plot failed and was uncovered. It was named the
> > Lavon Affair after the man who supposedly set up the terrorism, Pinhas
> > Lavon, the Israeli Defense Chief. He resigned in 1955 over the incident.
7
> >
> > In 1967, Israel purposefully attacked with unmarked jet fighters and
torpedo
> > boats, the U.S.S. Liberty, an American Navy vessel of the Sinai
Peninsula,
> > even machine gunning the deployed life rafts of the ship. The attack
killed
> > 31 American servicemen and wounded over 170. 8 They sought to sink the
ship,
> > kill all the Americans and blame it on the Egyptians so they could have
> > American support to conquer larger areas of the Arab world.
> >
> > The attack on the Liberty was nothing short of a vicious act of war
against
> > the United States by Israel. In spite of the fact that U.S. Secretary of
> > State Dean Rusk and navy chief Admiral Moorer said that the attack on
the
> > USS Liberty by Israel was deliberate, the all-powerful Zionist Lobby
> > prevented a formal Congressional investigation. If the Lobby can even
cover
> > up horrendous Israeli crimes against America, it's no wonder they can
cover
> > up Israel's endless crimes against the Palestinians. Yet, after the
Liberty
> > attack America didn't even reduce our billions of dollars of aid, in
fact
> > the story quickly vanished from the news after a few short days.
> >
> > In 1986 Israel actually caused us to wrongly go to war and militarily
attack
> > another nation. The Mossad planted a transmitter in Tripoli, Libya and
then
> > broadcast terrorist messages in Libyan code indicating Libyan
responsibility
> > for killing two Americans in the bombing of the La Belle discothèque in
> > Germany. 9 (It was later proven that Libya had nothing to do with the
> > bombing) By use of this fraud, Israel induced the American bombing of
Libya.
> > American bombs wrecked havoc there. One of those killed was the infant
> > daughter of the Libyan President. It is certainly a dastardly act of war
> > against a nation to induce it into wrongly attacking another nation.
Only a
> > truly evil enemy of America would do such a thing.
> >
> > Every Palestinian and Arab is aware that Israel's half century of terror
> > could never have occurred without the active financial, military, and
> > diplomatic support of the United States. They know that the Jewish Lobby
has
> > control of American Mideast Policy and the Zionists can get whatever
they
> > want from Congress on issues important to them.
> >
> > It was American support of Israel's brutal invasion and occupation of
> > Lebanon in the 1980s that led directly to the bombing of the U.S.
> >
> > Marine contingent, killing 300 American young men.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > ----
> >
> >
> > > http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17630
> > >
> > > By Gustavo Gutierrez
> > > The origins and myths of Thanksgiving are ironic indeed. Most educated
> > > Americans are unaware of the following fact: on Nov. 25, 1492, the
Vatican
> > > declared a "day of thanksgiving" to commemorate not only the fall of
> > Granada
> > > by the "infidel" Muslim Moors, but the subsequent expulsion of both
Jews
> > and
> > > Muslims alike. After seven centuries of Islamic rule on the Iberian
> > > Peninsula, the Christian kingdoms of Spain unified under Ferdinand and
> > > Isabelle began an era that would witness one of the greatest human
rights
> > > atrocities in the world.
> > >
> > > Initially, a "day of thanksgiving" did not commemorate the indigenous
> > > peoples of Massachusetts and the religious zealots known as the
Pilgrims
> > > coming together with mutual respect for one another sitting at the
same
> > > table. This is a cultural myth narrative used to indoctrinate
Americans
> > like
> > > myself into believing in a sugar-coated version of American ethnocide
or,
> > > should I say, holocaust. Furthermore, most people are unaware of this
> > little
> > > known fact: Thanksgiving did not become a national holiday until the
> > Lincoln
> > > administration in the 1860s.
> > >
> > > With this historical knowledge now laid out, let's examine the current
> > > controversy in the Daily Bruin. Many people are upset that the Daily
Bruin
> > > would allow the publication of a turkey bearing the words "Free
Palestine"
> > > in a section of the newspaper not reserved for opinion content.
However,
> > art
> > > has always been and will continue to be used as means of political
> > > statement.
> > >
> > > To denigrate art as being mindless, numbing entertainment is a great
> > > disservice. The "Free Palestine" turkey is a prime example. We are all
> > > entitled to our own opinions and we should learn to "agree to
disagree."
> > To
> > > label sentiments or opinions you may find objectionable, especially
> > > sentiments speaking out against the actions of the Israeli government
as
> > > anti-Semitic, is wrong. An anti-Semite is one who holds prejudicial
views
> > > towards individuals who religiously or culturally are Jewish. The
> > > anti-Semite will use his or her biases to oppress the Jew. This is not
> > > always the case for people who support Palestine.
> > >
> > > I believe in both a "Free Palestine" and a state of Israel. How can I
> > > possibly be labeled an anti-Semite? I am opposed to the treatment of
> > > Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in the hands of the Israeli
> > > government and their military machine. I am however, not opposed to
the
> > > existence of Israel or those who practice the tenants of Judaism. This
> > > distinction needs to be made clear and obvious. Israel can alleviate
the
> > > problems it faces with its Palestinian neighbors if its political
> > leadership
> > > is willing to compromise. The very term "Occupied Territories" infers
that
> > > Israel infringed on the territorial integrity of Arab nations like
Jordan
> > > (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip) since 1967.
> > >
> > > The Islamic world must accept the fact that Israel exists, but
Israelis
> > must
> > > respect the rights of Palestinians and honor their call for
> > > self-determination and a chance at creating a viable nation-state.
Both
> > > sides are not innocent and both have played the role of "villain."
> > >
> > > It is imperative that Israel finds a solution to this problem of three
> > > decades - after all, peace with the Palestinians is one effective way
of
> > > combating America's war on terrorism.
> > >
> > > This applies to the other side of the conflict as well. It is
intolerable
> > > that a historically persecuted group would perpetuate the same kind of
> > > persecution that has long been aimed at them. Although the Koran
condemns
> > > the religious persecution of "peoples of the Book" which would include
> > Jews
> > > and Christians alike, we see anti-Semitic attacks aimed at the
remaining
> > > 10,000 Iranians who culturally or religiously adhere to Judaism. The
> > Iranian
> > > Jewish community is an ancient one, and it is a tragedy that a nation
> > > governed supposedly by the tenants of Islam would purge its population
of
> > > the religious and ethnic diversity that once characterized Iran prior
to
> > > 1979.
> > >
> > > The "Free Palestine" turkey is an example of art that provokes
thought. We
> > > should realize the opinions of one individual student do not
necessarily
> > > represent the views or opinions of this school publication or the
campus
> > as
> > > a whole. We should also realize that no government is more morally
> > righteous
> > > than another is. It is about time that we realize that oppression is
> > > oppression. All governments and all groups of people at one point in
> > history
> > > have committed atrocities towards another group. The oppressor isn't
> > always
> > > a Protestant, Anglo-American, heterosexual male; the oppressor can be
> > > anyone, including an Israeli Jew.
> > >
> > > If a decade ago we could speak out against legal apartheid in South
> > Africa,
> > > what makes Israel any different? If speaking out against Israel is
deemed
> > > unacceptable, the question becomes why? Is America sensitive to the
fact
> > > that it initially, knowingly turned a blind eye to the near
annihilation
> > of
> > > European Jewry half a century ago? If this is the case, that is an
> > > unfortunate incident but that does not justify censorship of any kind.
> > > Sometimes the truth can be a little harsh.
> > >
> > > The next time you find the simple phrase "Free Palestine" displayed
> > > anywhere, keep this in mind. Isn't it problematic that 18 percent of
the
> > > Israeli population that is Arab is subjugated and relegated to
> > second-class
> > > citizenship?
> > >
> > > Isn't it problematic that with the formation of a Jewish state,
indigenous
> > > Palestinians native to the land base were forcibly removed from their
> > homes
> > > without proper compensation? Isn't it ironic that Israel wages its war
> > > against unarmed and poorly equipped Palestinians with American money
and
> > > American-made military machinery and weapons while the Palestinians
are
> > > funded by monies from "rogue" states like Iraq and Iran? Remember that
a
> > > "rogue" state is only labeled a "rogue" state when it openly defies
the
> > > strategic interests of the U.S.
> > >
> > > If the U.S. were deeply concerned with the plight of women in the
> > "volatile"
> > > Middle East, wouldn't we also be pointing our "morally righteous"
fingers
> > at
> > > the Saudis? After all, one of the most repressive regimes in the
region
> > > happens to be one of our closest Arab allies. But wait, we are more
> > > interested in maintaining our assured supply of petroleum reserves
than
> > the
> > > flourishing of democracy in the "volatile" Middle East.
> > >
> > >
> > > "BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > > "Jim Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:<Nbpb8.2274$tu6.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > > >
> > > > > Didn't you know that the USA taxpayers paid millions of their
> > > > > hard-earned dollars to Israel (after the scud attacks) in order to
> > keep
> > > >
> > > > more bullshit
> > > > Israeli orders keep US jobs and bring profits but the bullshits
> > > > complain
> > > > ungrateful scumm bar
> > > > ====
> > > > > it out of the Gulf War conflict (such was used in the relocation
of
> > > Russian
> > > > > Jews to Israel).
> > > >
> > > > the biggest influx of jews from Soviets was in 1991-1992
> > >
> > > In accordance with the deal done between the USA and Israel as
mentioned
> > > above..
> > >
> > > > Morris, shut up
> > > > ====
> > > > > If we want to prevent future terrorism in the USA
> > > > > (which is most likely going to happen yet again tragically but
> > hopefully
> > > > > not), it is time to cut the three billion dollar annual US
taxpayer
> > > > > dollar support for the brutal apartheid state of Israel
> > > >
> > > > If you want to PROMOTE future terrorism in the USA keep on giving
> > > > military money to the Arabs
> > > > ====
> > > > > (read the
> > > > > opinion piece about Ariel Sharon from the UCLA Daily Bruin
newspaper
> > > > > which is included below):
> > > >
> > > > immature teenage student wannabe diarrhea verbalis happily deleted
in
> > > > the fight for internet pollution prevention
> > > > ;l
> > > > those students are sure assholes
> > > > poor America who will rule you?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > "Tull" <jethr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3c6dd4b6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:34 -0500, Roger Alexander <rla...@kih.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Is it just us or is this story in today's Jeruslaem Post racist?
Sounds
> > > >similar
> > > >to upity whites objecting to "blacks" or other people of color moving
> > > >into the
> > > >neighborhood.
> > > >
> > > >Note the stated objections from the Jewish community in responce to
> > > >Arabs
> > > >moving into their cozy little "Jewish only" enclave: "....they are
> > > >unsuitable
> > > >for living in the community and their social and communal integration
> > > >will not
> > > >succeed." Note these "Jewish communites" - more aptly called
colonies -
> > > >are
> > > >built on illegally confiscated Palestinian land in the first place.
> > > >
> > > >What would be the reaction if Jews were to move into a non-Jewish
> > > >neighborhood
> > > >and the people there were to say: "....they are unsuitable for living
in
> > > >the
> > > >community and their social and communal integration will not
succeed."
> > > >It is
> > > >rather evident this would cause a huge uproar, and rightfully so. So
why
> > > >is it
> > > >that when this type of discrimination and bigotry is directed towards
> > > >Arabs
> > > >that nothing is ever said? Are Arabs "children of a lesser God" and
thus
> > > >not
> > > >entitled to the same human rights and dignity as anyone else?
> > > >
> > > >We think it is important that the Jewish communiy examine the racism
in
> > > >its
> > > >midst and rectify this problem. If you want something for yourself,
you
> > > >better
> > > >want it for your neighbor first.
> > > >
> > > >Note, the term "Israeli Arab" is just a term used to lable
Palestinians
> > > >who
> > > >have had the so called Israeli citizenship imposed upon them.
> > > >
> > > >Read on........
> > > >---------------
> > > >
> > > >Israeli Arab family rejected by Jewish neighborhood
> > > >
> > > >By Dan Izenberg
> > > >
> > >
>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.43388.html
> > > >
> > > >An Israeli Arab family's bid to build a home in the exclusively
Jewish
> > > >neighborhood of Katzir is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Jewish
> > > >settlement
> > > >movement in Israel from within, the head of the Katzir-Harish local
> > > >council,
> > > >Dubi Sandrov said today.
> > > >
> > > >Sandrov said he "wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the
leaders
> > > >of the
> > > >Palestinian Authority" are behind the request of Adel and Iman
Ka'adan
> > > >for a
> > > >plot of land to build their home in Katzir. "Iranian or Saudi money
is
> > > >likely
> > > >funding the entire campaign," he added.
> > > >
> > > >The Ka'adans submitted a request to build a home in Katzir on
> > > >state-owned land
> > > >which the Israel Lands Authority gave to the Katzir Cooperative
Society
> > > >via the
> > > >Jewish Agency. The society's membership committee rejected the
request
> > > >of the
> > > >Ka'adan family, from nearby Baka el-Gharbiya, for a plot of land.
> > > >
> > > >The Ka'adans, sponsored by the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel,
> > > >petitioned the High Court of Justice, which ruled last year that
Katzir
> > > >could
> > > >not reject the Ka'adans on religious or ethnic grounds.
> > > >
> > > >Following the ruling, the membership committee heard and rejected the
> > > >Ka'adans'
> > > >request for a second time on the grounds that "they are unsuitable
for
> > > >living
> > > >in the community and their social and communal integration will not
> > > >succeed."
> > > >
> > > >===============================================
> > > >The Kaadan's were the family who got a ruling from the Israeli High
> > > >Court
> > > >that they could petition the Jewish town set up near Nazareth to
> > > >buy a plot there because the discrimination against them in their
Arab
> > > >town
> > > >limited their education and other opportunities.
> > > >This latest decision is arrant racism, which we have come to expect
from
> > > >Israelis
> > > >but it is still nauseous. Jews in the US have forcefully made
Americans
> > > >
> > > >stop such discrimination, which is entirely right, but for Jews in
> > > >Israel
> > > >to practice such open discrimination is worse than nauseous. It
stands
> > > >for
> > > >the proposition that every country but that of the Jews should
practice
> > > >antidiscrimination, while the Jews have the right to be racist as all
> > > >Hell.
> > > >For shame.
> > > >RLA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Same as the old days is South Africa. Whites only suburbs. Blacks
> > > only allowed in as shit workers.
> > > Tull
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


"> Yardena3 <yard...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020216022921...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> > I've become tired of the BBC, CNN and the like showing a
> > flag-bearing Jew and captioning "A settler illegal under international
> law."
> > Therefore, I sat down and read the League of Nations Mandate (1922 & US
> > ratified '25), the United Nations Charter ('45), the fourth Geneva
> > Convention ('49), and the Security Council resolutions 242 ('67) and
338
> > ('73). The following is my "White Paper."
> >
> > Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip has existed from
> > the very beginning of history - from the Biblical times of Genesis
~1,900
> > B.C.E. when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob settled there - throughout the
> > millennia right up to the present. Jewish settlement has been expressly
> > recognized and re-legitimized again in modern times in the Mandate for
> > Palestine which was ratified by the League of Nations, in San Remo,
Italy
> on
> > June 24th, 1922. (A special American - British Palestine Mandate
> Convention
> > took place afterwards as the United States was not a member of the
League
> of
> > Nations - this was ratified in March 1925.)
> >
> > The Mandate for Palestine provided for the establishment of a Jewish
> state
> > in the Jewish people's ancient homeland and incorporated, in full, the
> > "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917. The Mandate's preamble
> states
> > (paragraph 3): "putting into effect the declaration originally made on
> > November 2, 1917 by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted
> by
> > the other Allied Powers". George V's [ruled 1910-1936] government by
the
> > hand of a former Prime Minister and the then current Foreign Minister,
Sir
> > Arthur James Balfour, made this declaration: "His Majesty's Government
> view
> > with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the
> Jewish
> > people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement
of
> > this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done
which
> > may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish
> > communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by
> Jews
> > in any other country.!
> > " (The declaration is now housed in the British Museum, London.)
> >
> > The Mandate for Palestine further states in Article 6: "The
> Administration
> > of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other
> sections
> > of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish
immigration
> > under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in cooperation with the
> > Jewish Agency referred to in Article 4,
> >
> > close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not
required
> > for public use".
> >
> > Some Jewish settlements, such as in Hebron, have existed from time
> > immemorial through the centuries of Ottoman rule and right up through
the
> > Mandate period. Other settlements such as Neve Ya'acov (northern
> Jerusalem),
> > the Gush Etzion bloc in Judea, the communities north of the Dead Sea in
> > Samaria, and
> > Kfar Darom in the Gaza strip, were established under British Mandatory
> > administration prior to the establishment of the State of Israel (May
15th
> > 1948).
> >
> > The United Nations vote of November 29, 1947 to establish a Jewish
State
> > and an Arab State was accepted by Israel while it was totally rejected
by
> > all the Arab states. The Arabs states commenced an armed conflict when
the
> > British troops left in May 1948 with their stated goal to utterly
destroy
> > the Jewish community. In this war of aggression Egypt took control of
the
> > Gaza strip and Jordan annexed Judea and Samaria - both of these acts
> clearly
> > illegal under international law - these states took control of an area
not
> > previously theirs through a war of aggression. This is clearly not
> > sanctioned by any international resolution, charter, or convention. In a
> war
> > of self-defense in 1948 and again in 1967 Israel found itself left to
> > control much of the original Palestine territory. Israel did not ask for
a
> > war in either '48 or '67 she was forced into them by blatant belligerent
> > declarations and acts and in the process of defending herself found she
> > inherited some several hundred thousand Arabs who have now grown to 1.9
> > million.
> >
> > The UN resolutions: 242 of 22 November 1967 "requires the establishment
> of
> > a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the
> > application of both the following principles: (i) Withdrawal of Israel
> armed
> > forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (ii)
Termination
> of
> > all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement
> of
> > the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of
every
> > State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and
> > recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force" and paragraph
3
> of
> > resolution 338 of 22 October 1973 "Decides that immediately and
> concurrently
> > with the cease-fire, negotiations shall start between the parties
> concerned
> > under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable
peace
> in
> > the Middle East."
> >
> > Conclusion: Until the process of negotiation is complete - the
> settlements can
> > in no tenable way be considered illegal. The settlements cannot be
> considered
> > illegal for they are all in territory which the Nations of the World
> created in
> > the British Mandate of Palestine. In fact, had there been
> > Jewish settlements east of the Jordan river they too would have been
> > legitimate until the signed Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty of October 26,
1994
> > when the borders of that previous Palestine Mandate state became fixed
> > through mutual negotiations.
>
>
>

cb

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 5:33:11 PM2/17/02
to
It's fascinating how those neo-nazis/muslims try to recruit in these groups
with the same stunning luck of success.
"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:4GTb8.6062


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 7:04:27 PM2/17/02
to
Funny how nowadays all who say anything opposing about israelians/jews are
antisemitists or neo-nazis.


- Mika Rantanen


cb

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 11:28:30 PM2/17/02
to
it's funny how nowadays all those antisemites try to blame the jews for all
the evils of the world under the guiseof being concerned people. It's also
funny how they fail to acheieve their goals each and every time.


Gernot Hassenpflug

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 10:03:10 AM2/18/02
to

--
In the gnus newsreader, use the following very useful and time-saving
lines in summary-mode:

V s C-u 9 L s s p

This lowers the score by 9, and it will hopefully never bother you
again.

To avoid the same author's mails again, use the following score:

V s C-u 9 L a e p

There, and now back to sci.naval.military.....
--
Gernot Hassenpflug MSc.(Eng.) Kyoto University Fax: +81 (0)774 31-8463
Radio Science Centre for Space and Atmospheres Tel: +81 (0)774 38-3868
京都大学宙空電波科学研究センター eMail: ger...@kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp
WebHomePage: http://www.kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp/radar-group/members/gernot

Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 11:29:45 AM2/18/02
to
"Mika Rantanen" <ash...@nospam.saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
news:a4pgd7$17g$1...@tron.sci.fi...

> Funny how nowadays all who say anything opposing about israelians/jews are
> antisemitists or neo-nazis.
> - Mika Rantanen

Not to mention they're usually functionally illiterate...


Martin Sinclair

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 1:14:52 PM2/18/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
>
> "Mika Rantanen" <ash...@nospam.saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
>
> Not to mention they're usually functionally illiterate...

Or posting in a second language. How good is your Finnish?


Martin

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 8:28:15 PM2/18/02
to

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4GTb8.6062$tu6.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

>
> I don't support violence. However, those Israeli settlements on
Palestinian
> land in the occupied terrorities are illegal and should not be there per
UN
> Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Also, the Mitchell Plan is
against
> those
> settlements as well. Yet, Israel continues to defy the Mitchell Plan in
> building them. The USA should cut off aid to Israel as supporting Israel
is
> NOT worth the cost... If someone kept encroaching on my land (with
> settlements and such), I would be pretty upset about it as well (and I
> wouldn't just "roll over" like the arrogant Israelis expect the
Palestinians
> to do).
>
A few points. Who defines what is legal? Whoever controls a country is
the entity that defines what is legal.
After losing several wars that they started, Palestinians don't really have
anything to say about what is "their" land. They live where they live at the
pleasure and convenience of the victors.
You do support violence. By promoting "rights" that don't exist.


Harry the Horse

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 6:30:41 AM2/19/02
to
"Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:PShc8.79795$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

>
> A few points. Who defines what is legal? Whoever controls a country is
> the entity that defines what is legal.
>
You have heard of international law have you?


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 10:44:09 AM2/19/02
to
"Harry the Horse" <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
news:BHqc8.4506$_U4....@news.easynews.com...

I thought you might find this interesting, regardless of your
religious/political beliefs:
Compiled by a Xian university professor:
HERE ARE THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...
Nationhood and Jerusalem:
1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of
Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over
the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for
the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than
22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem
has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital,
and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Holy Scriptures.
Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.
Arab and Jewish Refugees in 1948:
9. The Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders
promising to purge the land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli
soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since WW2, theirs is the only refugee group in the
world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.
The Arab-Israeli Conflict:
13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including
Palestine. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all
five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The PLO's Charter still calls for destruction of the State of Israel and
expulsion of all Jews. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West
Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their
police with weapons.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
were denied access to places of worship.
Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Xian sites have been preserved and made
accessible to people of all faiths.
The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs:
16. Of 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed
against Israel.
17. Of 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were
directed against Israel.
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the
ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid policy of
preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 10:45:51 AM2/19/02
to
"Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3C71449C...@tality.com...
Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:07:36 AM2/19/02
to
> Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
> Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


How would you know that when you don't know any finnish?

I think I'd win the bet.


- Mika Rantanen


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:12:11 AM2/19/02
to
> Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
> Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?

I didn't know that. Since when?


- Mika Rantanen


Chas

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:38:32 AM2/19/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
> ........

> Compiled by a Xian university professor:

Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
would like to get along without our help. I can think of any number of
cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
year, and be a bit more civil about it too.
I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
nation.

--
Chas

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 12:17:32 PM2/19/02
to

"Harry the Horse" <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
news:BHqc8.4506$_U4....@news.easynews.com...
The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate. Then
that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did not
agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside of
this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
authority to enforce. The US is not governed by any law we did not agree to
follow. This is called sovreignty and all countries have the same right to
make their own laws. When there is a dispute as to who is sovereign, war
solves it and provides a winner who is sovereign.

The oldest international law is the law of the sea. In this case all
seafaring powers have gotten together and agreed amomg themselves on a set
of rules that they will follow and they bind themselves to it. Non-sefaring
powers or those that did not sign the agreements do not have to follow, but
it is generally good sense to follow the rules, which are mostly just
traffic rules that keep ships from running into each other. Lets not get
superstitious about international law. It is not holy writ from the Bible!


tim gueguen

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 5:53:13 PM2/19/02
to

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4GTb8.6062$tu6.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

A ridiculously long(96K according to Outlook Express) post of little if any
relevance to sci.military naval.

tim gueguen 101867


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:35:35 AM2/20/02
to
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C727F2B...@attbi.com...

> Duke of URL wrote:
> > ........
> > Compiled by a Xian university professor:
>
> Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> would like to get along without our help.

I have used that abbreviation for many years. It originated centuries ago.
It is not intended to insult anyone; I'm sorry you feel that way. BTW, you
are the *only* one who has ever objected. Also, I'm not the only one who
uses it. If I ever hear from a few of the posters whose opinions I respect
that it offends them, I will drop it.

I can think of any number of
> cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
> year, and be a bit more civil about it too.

??? What did I say that was uncivil?

> I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> nation.

[A] I am not a bigot, as you'd know if you were familiar with me.
[B] I'm not sure who "us" is - you x-posted to a group for British Lawyers,
so are you that?
[C] What slur?
[D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
professor was American, as am I.


The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:26:33 AM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:35:35 -0600, "Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net>
wrote:

>[D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
>professor was American, as am I.

Presumably part of the jewish diaspora.

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 8:56:02 PM2/20/02
to

"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C727F2B...@attbi.com...
> Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> would like to get along without our help. I can think of any number of
> cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
> year, and be a bit more civil about it too.
> I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> nation.
>
As I understand it, the US agreed to give both Egypt and Israel equal aid
of $3 billion per year if Egypt would agree to have peace with Israel. Do
you want to stop giving it to both countries or just to Israel?

cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:03:18 PM2/20/02
to
> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?
>
> I didn't know that. Since when?

Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their goals.
The ironic thing is that if they chosen to work for their goals through
peaceful means Israel would have given them everything they wanted and then
some. Not to mention that all of those idiotic suicide bombers would still
be alive.


cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:05:05 PM2/20/02
to
Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
A: Israel.

Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
settlement in Israel?
A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)

Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
1920?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
Israel?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who adopted a policy of non-co-operation with
the British mandators in 1933 thereby
torpedoing the possibility of finding any
solution for years to come?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched further riots in 1936 which lasted
over three years?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opposed another attempt at resolving the
impasse in 1937 following the Peel Commission
report?
A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel OKed it.)

Q: Who opposed the UN-devised solution in 1947
and instigated yet more riots?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who invaded the state of Israel just one day
after its proclamation?
A: The Arabs with no fewer than five armies.

Q: Who increases tension in the region in 1967
by moving its troops to Sinai and blockading
the Gulf of Aqaba?
A: Egypt.

Q: Who refused to recognise or negotiate with
Israel in 1967-8?
A: Eight Arab states, including the 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who invades Lebanon in 1970 to support the PLO
and threaten Jordan?
A: Syria.

Q: Who murders 11 Israeli athletes in Munich?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched a dastardly attack on Israel on
its holliest day (Yom Kippur) in 1973?
A: Egypt and Syria. {And then they want us to
halt the bombing for their 'holy' Ramadan.}

Q: Who launched attacks from Lebanon on Israel
in 1976?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who hijacked 103 hostages on an airplane?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched a torrer raid on Israel leaving
37 civilians dead and 82 injured in 1978?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opposes the peace treaty between Israel
and Egypt in 1979?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who killed 241 Marines by suicide bombing
in Lebanon in 1984?
A: A 'Palestinian'.

Q: Who hijacked an Italian cruise ship, killed
a wheelchair-bound civilian and threw him
overboard?
A: 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who gets so fed up with the 'PLO'
intransigence that it withdraws support for
it?
A: Jordan.

Q: Who instigated the 'intifada' in 1987 in
Israeli-administered civilian areas?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who relinquishes claim to the West Bank in
1988?
A: Jordan.

Q: Following peace treaties with Arab countries
and the 'PLO's' recognition of Israel, who
engages in bona fide negotiations with
Jordan/'PLO' regarding 'Palestinian'
self-rule?
A: Israel.

Q: Who ends its control of the West Bank and
Gaza after handing over Jericho to the
'Palestinians' in 1994?
A: Israel.

Q: Who kills over 30 civilians in three
suicide bombings in 1995?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who murders 63 people in suicide bombings
in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon in 1996?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opens fire on Israeli soldiers in 1996
breaching Olso II?
A: The 'Palestinian' 'police'.

Q: Who murders 8 civilians in three suicide
bombings in 1997?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who rejects the offer of 98 % of the
'disputed' territories, including joint
control of East Jerusalem and organise an
'intifada' in stead in 2000?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opens machine-gun fire on a civilian
bus, murdering two--including a 16-y-o
girl--and injuring 35, as 'thanks' for the
Israeli withdrawal from Bethlehem last
month?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:07:23 PM2/20/02
to
then we should as well withdraw our support from Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan,
and Kuwait with SA(whose economies are pretty much built on American $$).
and BTW writing Xtians instead of Christians is a perfectly accepted. If you
don't like it tough. That's why this country is great. Democracy forever.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 11:49:32 PM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:05:05 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>A: Israel.
>
>Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?
>A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)
>
>Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
> 1920?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.
>
>Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.

'Israel' didn't exist in 1922.

(snip tale of woe)

Q: Who is the source of all the problems in the Middle East?
A: The 'Israelis'.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 11:49:34 PM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:03:18 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?
>>
>> I didn't know that. Since when?
>
>Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their goals.

And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
children) in retaliation.

Dennis Jensen

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 2:36:03 AM2/21/02
to
"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

> Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> A: Israel.
>

Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
middle east that have suffrage.

> Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)
>

And who is thwarting the process now? Look at Israel being dragged kicking
and screaming to "giving up" what was never theirs (West Bank and Gaza).
Imagine there is an attempt to negotiate a settlement with the Palestinians
that requires that Israel gives up half of it's 1948 land area. Think Israel
will oppose such negotiations? Pretty dumb, really! Think about it, the
Palestinians had everything to lose, the Jews everything to gain. The Jews
at the time had NO rights in the region. BTW, Israel did NOT fully
cooperate, Israel was not even a state.

> Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
> 1920?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And certain militant Jewish groups didn't do that to the Palestinians? Learn
your history.

> Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

As above.

> Q: Who adopted a policy of non-co-operation with
> the British mandators in 1933 thereby
> torpedoing the possibility of finding any
> solution for years to come?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Solution to WHAT? The Palestinians did not see a problem that required
resolving, particualrly not a solution which required territory handover.

> Q: Who launched further riots in 1936 which lasted
> over three years?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And?

> Q: Who opposed another attempt at resolving the
> impasse in 1937 following the Peel Commission
> report?
> A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel OKed it.)
>

Israel didn't-Israel didn't exist.

> Q: Who opposed the UN-devised solution in 1947
> and instigated yet more riots?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Why would they agree? The "solution" resulted in losses of land from the
Palestinian point of view, and in the gain of land for the Jews.

> Q: Who invaded the state of Israel just one day
> after its proclamation?
> A: The Arabs with no fewer than five armies.
>

As above.

> Q: Who increases tension in the region in 1967
> by moving its troops to Sinai and blockading
> the Gulf of Aqaba?
> A: Egypt.
>

And? Who conducted a pre-empitive strike (although on this one, Israel was
justified).

> Q: Who refused to recognise or negotiate with
> Israel in 1967-8?
> A: Eight Arab states, including the 'Palestinians'.
>

And why should they have? Would Israel happily hand over any of their
territory? Hell, they won't even hand over territory that is not theirs!

> Q: Who invades Lebanon in 1970 to support the PLO
> and threaten Jordan?
> A: Syria.
>

And?

> Q: Who murders 11 Israeli athletes in Munich?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

A militant group. What would you call Urgin (I think that is the spelling).
You know, the terrorist organisation that killed many British soldiers. The
organisation that Begin belonged to. You know, the guy who later became PM
of Israel?

> Q: Who launched a dastardly attack on Israel on
> its holliest day (Yom Kippur) in 1973?
> A: Egypt and Syria. {And then they want us to
> halt the bombing for their 'holy' Ramadan.}
>

Dastardly attack. What about the 1982 invasion of Lebanon?

> Q: Who launched attacks from Lebanon on Israel
> in 1976?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And?

> Q: Who hijacked 103 hostages on an airplane?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Who sank a USN ship? The Israelis!

> Q: Who launched a torrer raid on Israel leaving
> 37 civilians dead and 82 injured in 1978?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And what about the terror raid on the prison camp in 1982?

> Q: Who opposes the peace treaty between Israel
> and Egypt in 1979?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Why not? They see Israel as THEIR land!

> Q: Who killed 241 Marines by suicide bombing
> in Lebanon in 1984?
> A: A 'Palestinian'.
>

A single individual, and you blame all Palestinians for it? Who blew up an
office building in the US, killing over 100? An American (Timothy McVeigh).
So, do you blame all Americans for that?

> Q: Who hijacked an Italian cruise ship, killed
> a wheelchair-bound civilian and threw him
> overboard?
> A: 'Palestinians'.
>

Well, you could just say "humans" to that!

> Q: Who gets so fed up with the 'PLO'
> intransigence that it withdraws support for
> it?
> A: Jordan.
>

And?

> Q: Who instigated the 'intifada' in 1987 in
> Israeli-administered civilian areas?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

What were Jews in Palestine doing in the mid-1940's? What were they doing in
Lebanon in the 1980's?

> Q: Who relinquishes claim to the West Bank in
> 1988?
> A: Jordan.
>

And?

> Q: Following peace treaties with Arab countries
> and the 'PLO's' recognition of Israel, who
> engages in bona fide negotiations with
> Jordan/'PLO' regarding 'Palestinian'
> self-rule?
> A: Israel.
>

Really?

> Q: Who ends its control of the West Bank and
> Gaza after handing over Jericho to the
> 'Palestinians' in 1994?
> A: Israel.
>

Oh, so those areas are no longer under Israeli control? They are now not
part of Israel, but separate political entities? News to me!

> Q: Who kills over 30 civilians in three
> suicide bombings in 1995?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who murders 63 people in suicide bombings
> in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon in 1996?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who opens fire on Israeli soldiers in 1996
> breaching Olso II?
> A: The 'Palestinian' 'police'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who murders 8 civilians in three suicide
> bombings in 1997?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who rejects the offer of 98 % of the
> 'disputed' territories, including joint
> control of East Jerusalem and organise an
> 'intifada' in stead in 2000?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Joint control over land that is actually theirs? Yeah, I can really see why
the Palestinians should be happy with that;)

> Q: Who opens machine-gun fire on a civilian
> bus, murdering two--including a 16-y-o
> girl--and injuring 35, as 'thanks' for the
> Israeli withdrawal from Bethlehem last
> month?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.

Who goes into Palestinian areas with helicopter gunships, blasting away
merrily? Who kills a 4 year old boy?

Suggest you do a little research. Suggest you look into the total number of
Israeli civilians killed in the past however many years you choose to look
into. Then look into the number of Arab civilian deaths directly caused by
Israel, and come back to us with the numbers (i.e. far more
Arabs/palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel than vice versa).

This is a very vexed question that you are looking at in a very simplistic
manner. Both sides have blood on their hands, and to suggest (which you
appear to be doing) that one side is squeaky clean is to ignore the facts.
--
Dennis Jensen
Author of "The Flying Pigs"
http://www.ebooks-online.com/ebooks/search.asp
NOW ONLINE


Chas

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 10:11:14 AM2/21/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
> ........
> > > Compiled by a Xian university professor:
> > Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone-
> I have used that abbreviation for many years. It originated centuries ago.

Hell, that's a good excuse-
There are a bunch of words that originated centuries ago that we don't
accept in polite society- it's similar to 'Hebes' for Hebrews; a
condescending appellation denoting contempt.

> It is not intended to insult anyone;

Sure it is- anytime you call someone out of their name, it's meant in
a denigratory fashion.
At least fess up about it.

> I'm sorry you feel that way. BTW, you
> are the *only* one who has ever objected.

Yeah- most of us just turn the other cheek.

> Also, I'm not the only one who
> uses it.

If they all jumped over a cliff would you jump too?

> If I ever hear from a few of the posters whose opinions I respect
> that it offends them, I will drop it.

Mighty white of you.

> > I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> > it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> > nation.
> [A] I am not a bigot, as you'd know if you were familiar with me.

'By their fruits shall ye know them.'

> [B] I'm not sure who "us" is - you x-posted to a group for British Lawyers,
> so are you that?

I just hit 'reply'-

> [C] What slur?

don't be thick.

> [D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
> professor was American, as am I.

An apologia for Israel is on behalf of a supplicant nation. Israel
wouldn't exist but for the special interest that we Christians extend
to them. Our religion says; 'Who loves Jerusalem, loves the Lord'.
They would not exist but for our loving support.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/castool1.jpg

Chas

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 10:16:51 AM2/21/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:

> "Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> > billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> > If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> > would like to get along without our help.
> As I understand it, the US agreed to give both Egypt and Israel equal aid
> of $3 billion per year if Egypt would agree to have peace with Israel. Do
> you want to stop giving it to both countries or just to Israel?

I'd do a show of hands; 'everybody that isn't spying on the US, raise
your hand', 'everybody that appreciates 3 thousand million dollars in
aid per year, raise your hand', 'everybody that knows how to spell
'Christian', raise your hand (no, Mr. Sharon, not 'palm up').
It's like when the Kuwaitis called us 'white slaves' in appreciation
for our help in Desert Storm; just insulting and tiresome.

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 12:50:28 PM2/21/02
to

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...

As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.

If you can't see the difference then you've got a problem.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three


William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 12:51:50 PM2/21/02
to

Dennis Jensen <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...

> "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> > Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> > A: Israel.
> >
>
> Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
> middle east that have suffrage.

I'll play.

And which ones have a free vote and a free press?

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 1:55:01 PM2/21/02
to

"William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a53c3m$cgt$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...

>
> Dennis Jensen <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
> news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...
> > "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> > news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> > > Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> > > A: Israel.
> > >
> >
> > Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
> > middle east that have suffrage.
>
> I'll play.
>
> And which ones have a free vote and a free press?
>
> Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
>
Iraq and Syria, ruled by the Baath party, are about as democratic as Nazi
Germany. Iran has elections that don't count, because there is no way
elections can dislodge the clerics once they are in power. In this way
Islamic government is a lot like Communist government: you can vote them in,
but votes will never get them out.
Turkey is fairly democratic, but is it the middle east? Secularism is
more important than democracy, as under the constitution of Turkey it is the
duty of the army to remove any Islamic government even if it is elected by
the majority of the people.
Israel is democratic for now, but you know theat when Israeli Arabs
become a majority they are not going to be allowed to take over the country.
Actually, too much is made of democracy. What we have in the US is a
republic, not a democracy. In a democracy 51% of the people can vote to
enslave and take all the property from the other 49%. Democracy can only
work in a completly homogenous country with no class distinctions. We should
not concern ourselves with trying to export "democracy". Justice would be a
better goal. Far better than that would be security and prosperity for
ourselves and let others look to their own interests. (This is how the
French do it).


Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:05:16 AM2/21/02
to
In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes

>Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>A: Israel.
>
Saudi Arabia is more democractic.

>Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?

>Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in


> 1920?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.

See above.

>
>Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?

See above.

I wonder if our friend has seen the original version of this!
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/2634/ITMA.html

http://www.financialreform.20m.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/satpalramisguilty/index.html

http://www.searchlightarchive.20m.com/index.html

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:06:38 PM2/21/02
to

Michael Flynn <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:9obd8.88310$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> Actually, too much is made of democracy. What we have in the US is a
> republic, not a democracy.

Bonkers...

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:29:04 PM2/21/02
to

Alexander Baron <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

> In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
> writes
> >Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> >A: Israel.
> >
> Saudi Arabia is more democractic.

Well I was worried for a moment then.

But the appearance of Alexander Baron, well know conspiracy theorist, BNP
apologist and all round nut job has reassured me.

He's always wrong.

He also writes poetry, I've never laughed so much...

Try it at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/2634/poetry.html
,talk about Vogons...

M.J.Powell

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 4:07:25 PM2/21/02
to
>>
>> >> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people
>stupid?
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know that. Since when?
>> >
>> >Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their
>goals.
>>
>> And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
>> children) in retaliation.
>
>As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
>of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.

Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:47:56 PM2/21/02
to
Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties, muslims do their best to
inflict the largest amount of civilian casualties.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:49:24 PM2/21/02
to
Do you make difference between killing civilians and killing armed personnel
"M.J.Powell" <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:54:04 PM2/21/02
to
Israel is the only one who has democratically elected president and
congress. the only other country in the region that has the same is India
but she is located more in south Asia rather than ME.

"Dennis Jensen" <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:56:54 PM2/21/02
to
what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?

"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:46:55 AM2/22/02
to
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties

Unsuccessfully, it seems.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:46:56 AM2/22/02
to
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:50:28 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
>news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:03:18 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people
>stupid?
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know that. Since when?
>> >
>> >Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their
>goals.
>>
>> And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
>> children) in retaliation.
>
>As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
>of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>
>If you can't see the difference then you've got a problem.
>

Tank shells and booby traps don't discriminate between adults and
children.

http://www.jmcc.org/new/01/Jun/childaqsa.htm
will give you the names of 137 'terrorists' between the ages of 4
months and 17 years killed in the 9 months up to June 2001.

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 5:12:22 AM2/22/02
to

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties
>
> Unsuccessfully, it seems.

What do you expect? They are not gods. They do as well as any human being
could do.
Your argument lacks sincerity and integrity. You see this as a word game
with no intention of examining the actual situation.


The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 6:49:57 AM2/22/02
to
On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:12:22 GMT, "Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com>
wrote:

>
>"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
>news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties
>>
>> Unsuccessfully, it seems.
>
>What do you expect? They are not gods. They do as well as any human being
>could do.

In other words they have a cavalier attitude to civilian casualties:
anybody who gets in the way of a tank shell shouldn't have been there
in the first place.

>Your argument lacks sincerity and integrity. You see this as a word game
>with no intention of examining the actual situation.
>

The actual situation is that we are not dealing with a civilised
nation here.

William Black

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:07:08 PM2/22/02
to

M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...

> >As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a


matter
> >of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>
> Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?

Does the US Airforce?

If you can't tell the difference between policy and unfortunate accident
then it's you who's got a problem.

Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:50:13 AM2/22/02
to
In article <a53laf$6ui$1...@helle.btinternet.com>, William Black
<black_...@hotmail.com> writes

>
>Alexander Baron <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
>> writes
>> >Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>> >A: Israel.
>> >
>> Saudi Arabia is more democractic.
>
>Well I was worried for a moment then.
>
>But the appearance of Alexander Baron, well know conspiracy theorist, BNP

Conspiracy - combination of persons for an unlawful or immoral purpose.
If I'm a crank then so is the US government because they believe the Al
Queida network is a worldwide conspiracy. Recent events demonstrate they
might just have a point.

Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:51:00 AM2/22/02
to
In article <oAhd8.18$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes

>what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?
>"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

The fact that I would be safer and happier living in Saudi than in the
Zionist entity. Especially as I am a non-drinker.

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:21:09 PM2/22/02
to

To this I can only again repost:

"If you can't tell the difference between policy and unfortunate accident
then it's you who's got a problem."

> will give you the names of 137 'terrorists' between the ages of 4

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:22:37 PM2/22/02
to
seeing as Israel has one of the best militaries in the world. It's been
pretty successful in avoid unnecessary casualties. If it wanted to inflict
any civilian casualties to the arab world I can only assure you the entire
ME would go to see allah long time ago.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:23:39 PM2/22/02
to
that's for sure. None of the muslime nations are part of civilized world
since about 600 yrs ago.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c762f6...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:28:46 PM2/22/02
to
well I am a non-drinker as well and I also like pork and like to do stuff on
Saturdays as well and all of those things are allowed in Israel although
they are forbidden by Jewish laws. Pray tell me do you think you could you
violate islamic laws just as easily in SA as you can disobey Jewish
religious laws in Israel.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 6:12:46 AM2/23/02
to

Your assurances are meaningless. There are at least two nuclear
powers in the Islamic world. All out war would not leave 'Israel'
unscathed.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 6:12:45 AM2/23/02
to

The policy is to shell heavily populated Palestinian areas in reprisal
for suicide bombings. The 'unfortunate accidents' are a direct
consequence of this policy.

Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:32:38 AM2/23/02
to
"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3Tz1aSCk...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

> In article <oAhd8.18$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
> writes
> >what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?
> >"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...
>
> The fact that I would be safer and happier living in Saudi than in the
> Zionist entity. Especially as I am a non-drinker.

Could that POSSIBLY be because there are no Jewish terrorists
machine-gunning groups of Saudi schoolgirls, bombing Saudi shopping centers,
et cetera? Hmmm? Get the point?


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:39:03 AM2/23/02
to
"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cGyd8.19$6M3...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Just to pick one example, Pakistan seems
to be a decent part of the modern world. Mostly.
BTW: Does *anyone* think that it would be possible to have a gigantic
gathering of religious Jews like the current Muslim one in Mecca without it
being attacked?


William Black

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:36:10 AM2/23/02
to

Duke of URL <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u7f6tca...@corp.supernews.com...

> Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Just to pick one example, Pakistan
seems
> to be a decent part of the modern world. Mostly.

Pakistan is an extremely nasty military dictatorship with a reputation for
hanging Prime Ministers and supporting Islamic terrorism in India.

Just before 911 it was about to get the same treatment Zimbabwe is getting
now.

Plus a serious slapping from India

The only reason it didn't is because the USA needed them.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because they are on our side that
they're nice.

Sky King

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:46:47 AM2/23/02
to
In article <u7f6h0o...@corp.supernews.com>, macb...@kdsi.net
says...
> Instead we have Jewish Tanks blowing up innocent people's homes and killing
schoolgirls and boys. We have Jewish soldiers using guns to fight rock
throwers etc. Its not the Palestine authority that is attacking Israel
but just some idiots. Lets say someone from Canada blew up one some of
our people....would we then go there and kill innocent people?
NO! We would just punish those responsible. >

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:08:02 AM2/23/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:39:03 -0600, "Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net>
wrote:

They tried that in New York City. It got attacked.

Arthur L. Rubin

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 11:33:27 AM2/23/02
to
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe wrote:

> There are at least two nuclear
> powers in the Islamic world.

Who? Iraq and Pakistan? I don't know about
Iraq, but Pakistan probably wouldn't complain
about their neighbors being invaded by Israel.

--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com


cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:54:58 PM2/23/02
to
is that why Israeli jet fly for 30 minutes over their targets before the
bombing starts so that the innocent civilians might get away??? I've never
heard of Pal suicide bomber of giving Israeli civilians a half an hour
notice.

cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:57:10 PM2/23/02
to
you gotta be kidding. Pakistan a modern nation??? Ruled by dictator, 2
civilian wars going on there right now, people discriminated because they
are of different ethnicity, religion?? Don't sound like modern country to
me. And no I don't think it would be possible for so many Jews to be
gathered in one place w/out being attacked.
"Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u7f6tca...@corp.supernews.com...

cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:59:16 PM2/23/02
to
there are 2 nuclear powers in the ME but only one of them has nuclear tipped
missiles, and only one of those two had nukes since 1960 so I can assure you
that if Israel wanted to kill a lot of mulimes entire ME would go to see

allah long time ago.
"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c7775c...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 4:03:25 PM2/23/02
to
Could you please provide stats on how many Jewish schoolboys, schoolgirls
were killed by islamic suicide bombers vs. how many pals schoolboys,
schoolgirls were killed by Israeli military. and please don't give me the
standard 800 to 200 statistic. You have to realize that a majority of those
800 Pals killed in the last year are either snipers or suicide bombers so
they shouldn't even be in the statistic. However the majority of those 200
Israelis killed ARE peaceful Israeli civilians.

James Morris

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 6:05:48 PM2/23/02
to
From The Daily Telegraph newspaper in the United Kingdom on February 23,
2002:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com/opinion/Content/displayPopup.jhtml?xml=/opinio
n/2002/02/23/dt2305.xml&site=15

SIR - Impasse is defined as deadlock, a static situation that is unlikely to
improve or get worse. Sadly, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is at the
threshold of a new catastrophic phase that threatens to inflict yet more
pain and destruction on both sides.

The Palestinians risk losing a lot more lives and suffering greater penury,
while the Israelis risk the disintegration of their Jewish state. The
strategy of Ariel Sharon and his government has managed only to unite
Israeli and Palestinian extremists in their endeavours to wreck all chances
for peace.

As all attempts at a fair and durable settlement by old and stale
politicians of both sides have only made matters worse, the time has come to
think the previously unthinkable. Both populations are crying out for a new
generation of leaders willing to start with a clean sheet.

As Israel is the more powerful of the two, it bears a greater
responsibility. There is an urgent need for a far-sighted Israeli statesman
to emerge in order to convince his people that the very existence of Israel
depends on a just and peaceful settlement with the Palestinians. It is in
the long-term interest of Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders, dismantle
Jewish settlements and recognise an independent state of Palestine. The two
sovereign states can then sit down to negotiate a permanent settlement as
two equal partners.

As Muslims celebrate Eid al-Adha to commemorate the great sacrifice of
Abraham, the father of the three great monotheistic faiths, it is time to
sacrifice pride, arrogance, lust for power and extremism for the sake of
justice and permanent peace for all of Abraham's grandchildren.

From:
Dr Suheil Aranki, London SE21


James Morris

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 7:18:26 PM2/23/02
to
Sharons war crimes in Lebanon: the record
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/feb2002/sab-f22.shtml

By Jean Shaoul
22 February 2002

Below we publish the first in a three part series examining Israeli Prime
Minister Ariel Sharons role in the war crimes committed during the Israeli
invasion of Lebanon in 1982, culminating in the massacre of Palestinian
refugees at Sabra and Shatilla.

An attempt by Palestinians to bring Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
before a Belgian court on charges of war crimes appears to have been
thwarted. On February 14, the International Court of Justice in The Hague
ruled that past and present government leaders cannot be tried for war
crimes by a foreign state because of their diplomatic immunity and can only
be held to account in their own country.

Under a 1993 law, Belgium gave itself the right to try war crimes committed
by anyone anywhere at any time. A Belgian judge was due to rule on March 6
whether a case against Sharon should go to trial, but a legal adviser to the
Belgian government, Jan Devadder, said that the International Court of
Justice, has clearly ruled government leaders and heads of state enjoy
total immunity from prosecution. The Sharon case, in my opinion, is closed.

The court determined that a former or serving government official could not
be tried in a foreign court because throughout the duration of his or her
office [the minister], when abroad, enjoys full immunity from criminal
jurisdiction. This was so whether or not the accused was abroad on official
business or in a private capacity.

The court stressed that the judgement does not have any bearing on the trial
of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, as he is being tried by an
international body, the United Nations, and not by a foreign government. But
this legal technicality aside, the International Court of Justice has made
clear that it wishes to see only those deemed to be acting contrary to the
interests of the imperialist powers facing prosecution and not their
political allies such as Sharon.

At this point Sharon still faces charges relating to the brutal massacre of
2,000 Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla, Beirut, in
September 1982. The prosecution, working on behalf of the relatives of some
of his victims, alleges that Sharon bore responsibility in his capacity as
minister of defence of the occupying power, which under international law
was in charge of the overall safety of the population and was party to an
agreement to protect the Palestinians. It also holds Sharon responsible for
the direct role the Israeli army played both in the massacre and the
subsequent internment, torture and disappearance of many of the camps
inhabitants.

Sharons responsibility for Sabra and Shatilla is well known. Following
international and domestic uproar, the Israeli government was forced to hold
an inquiry. The resulting Kahan Commission laid direct responsibility on
Elie Hobeika, the leader of Lebanons fascist Phalange militia that carried
out the bloodbath, but said that Sharon bore personal responsibility. He
was forced to resign from his post in 1983 although he remained in the
cabinet.

Sharon has vigorously opposed the attempt to prosecute him and all the main
political parties in Israel have rallied to his defence. Israel has put
pressure on Belgium to change its laws and levelled accusations of
anti-Semitism in an attempt to prevent the case against its prime minister
from proceeding.

There are also accusations that Israeli forces carried out the assassination
of Hobeika a few weeks ago in order to eliminate a key witness to the events
of September 16-18, 1982. With the approval of the Israeli Defence Force
(IDF), Hobeika and Major Saad Haddad, of the Southern Lebanon Army, had
entered the refugee camp and gone on the rampage for 40 hours. They
butchered an estimated 2,000 men, women and children, as the IDF, having
sealed off the exits, looked on. Hobeika was blown up just a few days after
announcing that he would testify against Sharon.

The case came at a particularly sensitive time. The indictment and trial of
a serving Israeli prime minister would transform the status of the Zionist
state itself in the eyes of world opinion and severely embarrass Sharons
main backers, the Bush administration in the United States. The fact that
the case has got as far as it has is indicative of the growing divergence
between Europe and the US in the Middle East in general and the
Israel-Palestinian conflict in particular.

There has been growing frustration within Europes capitals over Bushs ever
more open support for Sharons war mongering, which is threatening to ignite
social tensions throughout the Middle East and destabilise the Arab regimes
upon whom they depend to police their financial interests. But none of
Europes governments, including Belgium, were genuinely desirous of parading
Sharon before a court and The Hague decision will have come as a relief.

Regardless of what now happens in Belgium, however, anyone wishing to
understand the nature of the Zionist regime and the underlying motives of
the Likud-Labour governments renewed military offensive against the
Palestinians would do well to examine the events leading up to the Sabra and
Shatilla massacre and Sharons criminal role in them.

Israel, Lebanon and Zionist expansionism

While public attention has focused on the atrocities at Sabra and Shatilla,
the record shows that these were the culmination of 15 years of military
action by Israel in Lebanon, much of which constituted war crimes. Israels
aim was to disperse the Palestinian refugees created by the establishment of
the Zionist state and the 1948-9, 1967 and 1973 wars. To this end, Sharon
sought to destroy the Palestinians emerging political and military
organisations; sow divisions between the Palestinians and those countries in
which they sought sanctuary; and prevent the unification of the Arab working
classes and oppressed masses against Israel and its imperialist backers.

Israel presented its military action in Lebanon and its subsequent invasion
in 1982 that led to the bombing and siege of Beirut, the expulsion of the
PLO and the atrocities at Sabra and Shatilla, as a defensive reaction to
Palestinian raids on her northern towns. But as the historical record shows,
in reality, its Operation Peace for Galilee flowed inexorably from the
logic of Zionist expansionism.

The Israeli invasion of the Lebanon in June 1982 was prepared through
numerous provocations against the Palestinians and Lebanon designed to
torpedo the 1981 Fahd Peace plan (named after the then Crown Prince and now
King of Saudi Arabia). This plan recognised Israels right to exist and
called for a Palestinian state in the territories occupied by Israel since
the 1967 war. Such a resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict cut
across Israels plans, only partially implemented in the June 1967 war, to
expand its borders.

The Zionists had long had an interest in Lebanon, one of four small states
carved out of the Syrian province of the Ottoman Empire by French
imperialism in the aftermath of World War I. In 1938, Ben Gurion, who was to
become Israels first prime minister in 1948, envisaged a state of Israel
that would include Southern Lebanon as far as the Litani Riveran essential
water supply. His perspective included an alliance with Lebanons Christian
Maronites, one of the many sectional groups encouraged by the French
colonial regime to keep the region divideddespite the fact that many
supported fascist Germanyas a bulwark against the Muslim Arab masses and
Arab nationalism.

In the mid-1950s, the Israeli government considered the break up of Lebanon,
the establishment of a Christian state and the annexation of Southern
Lebanon. Chief of Staff, Moshe Dayan, foreshadowing what was to happen in
the late 1970s, argued that this could be achieved by winning over or
bribing a military officer who would put himself at the head of the
Maronites and provide the pretext for an Israeli invasion.

Israel shelved these plans in deference to France, the power broker in
Lebanon, when the two countries joined with Britain in 1956 to invade Egypt
and depose President Abdul Nasser who had nationalised the Suez Canal and
other interests belonging to the imperialist powers. Dayans plans were to
some extent realised in 1979 when Israel, in defiance of the UN, handed over
Southern Lebanon, which it had captured after its invasion in 1978, to Major
Saad Haddad, a deserter from the Lebanese army.

The June 1967 war was a turning point in Israels history. The Zionist
entity, one of four small states carved out of the former Syrian province of
the Ottoman Empire and surrounded by hostile Arab neighbours, was unviable
within its existing boundaries. Though the Labour government never openly
declared this as its strategy, it seized the opportunity of a crisis
provoked by Egypt to put into practice the armed forces long held plans to
extend Israels borders throughout all of what was once British Mandate
Palestine and part of Syria. Such natural boundaries would be easier to
defend and gave Israel access to the river Jordan and its headwaters.

This Greater Israel policy, spawned a new social layerparticularly among
the Jewish settlers within the Occupied Territoriescommitted to this
expansionist policy both ideologically and materially. For this layer, for
whom General Ariel Sharon was later to become the spokesman, Lebanon was
unfinished business.

At the same time, the war also created a new generation of Palestinian
refugees who fled or were driven out by the IDF. Many went to Lebanon where
there were already refugee camps dating back to 1948. Their numbers were
further swelled after King Hussein of Jordans murderous war against the
Palestinians in 1970-1.

The June 1967 war also led to the establishment of the Palestine Liberation
Organisation (PLO), under the leadership of Yasser Arafat, as a mass
movement committed to armed struggle in pursuit of a Palestinian state.

After the expulsion of the PLO leadership from Jordan in 1970, Beirut became
not only the political, social and cultural heartland of the Palestinian
movement but also the PLOs military headquarters. Thus, Beirut also became
an enemy stronghold, as far as Israel was concerned.

Israels scorched earth policy in Lebanon

While Israel made much of the terrorist attacks on its own population, there
was little reporting of its own scorched earth campaign between 1968-74
against Lebanon. This was justified in terms of the need to defend Israels
northern settlements against Palestinian raids.

To cite but one example, the Palestinian terrorist attack at Maalot in May
1974 where 20 teenage youth were killed, was preceded by weeks of sustained
Israeli phosphorous and napalm bombing of Palestinian refugee camps in
Southern Lebanon resulting in the deaths of more than 300 people. Just two
days before Maalot, an Israeli air attack on the village of El-Kfeir in
Lebanon had killed four civilians.

Israels campaign was also aimed at undermining popular support for the
Palestinians, sowing divisions between the Palestinians and Lebanese, and
forcing the Lebanese government to suppress the PLO. Abba Eban, Israels
foreign minister from 1966-74, said the governments policy was predicated
upon the rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected
populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities [emphasis
added].

The Lebanese Army recorded over 3,000 violations of Lebanese territory by
Israeli armed forces between 1968 and 1974, an average rate of 1.4 incidents
per day. In 1974-75, this increased to seven incidents per day. During
1968-74, 880 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed in Israeli attacks.
According to UN officials, 3,500 were killed in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in
Israeli air raids. While no separate figures exist for Palestinians, it was
assumed that these must be at least twice as high as for the Lebanese.

By 1975, Israel had killed about 10 times as many Palestinians and Lebanese
in cross border attacks as the total number of Israelis killed in
Palestinian commando raids by 1982. Thousands of Palestinians were wounded
and tens of thousands were forced to flee their homes in South Lebanon and
move to the relative safety of Beirut and other cities. By the late 1970s,
this figure had reached 250,000. The aim was to create a demilitarised zone
in the south. To this end, 150 Palestinians camps and villages were
virtually razed to the ground and olive groves and crops destroyed.

By the mid-1970s, Arafats Fatah party, the dominant faction in the PLO, had
adopted a two state solution, advocating a mini-Palestinian state in the
West Bank and Gaza that it hoped could be achieved by negotiations with
Israel, and began to turn away from terrorist raids within Israel. This did
not stop Israeli attacks on Lebanon, which actually increased. After 30
warplanes bombed and strafed Palestinian refugee camps and nearby villages,
killing 57 people in December 1975, Israeli officials claimed their aim had
been preventative, not punitive.

These attacks were aimed at torpedoing any attempt at reaching a solution to
the long running conflict that included a Palestinian state. Just two days
earlier, despite angry objections by Israel, the UN Security Council had
devoted a session to discussing an Arab initiative for a two-state
settlement, thus paving the way for the PLOs participation in talks. The US
vetoed the proposal. Far from preventing terrorism, the Israeli attacks were
aimed at provoking a retaliatory response from the Palestinians and
preventing any possibility of the UN agreeing to a Palestinian state.

The outbreak of the first phase (1975-76) of the Lebanese civil war
expressed the unviability of the truncated state, riven as it was with
divisions sown and encouraged by French imperialism as a means of preserving
its influence and interests. In what was essentially a class war between the
Palestinians and their Muslim allies against the reactionary Maronite
Christian ruling elite, the Israeli government backed the various rival
Christian Maronite militiasthe perpetrators of the Tel al Zaatar and Khiyam
massacres to name but twoas their proxies against the PLO and their Muslim
allies. When it appeared that the Palestinian and Muslim forces might
prevail, the Syrian army intervened to preserve the Lebanese state and the
Maronite establishment.

In May 1977, Menachem Begins right wing Likud party came to power, ending
nearly 30 years in which the Labour Party had dominated Israeli political
life. Quite explicitly committed to a Greater Israel policy, Begin
expanded the Israeli relationship with the Maronites, backing Pierre and
Bashir Gamayels Phalangists against rival parties.

Mossad, Israels intelligence service, provided the Phalange with canons,
mortar, tanks, communications equipment, mines and explosives. Mossad
officers were placed within the Christian command, ostensibly to provide
help with Israeli weaponry but in reality to provide intelligence about the
civil war and launch attacks against Palestinian strongholds in Lebanon.
Later operations were to be extended against the Lebanese Shiites in
southern Lebanon, who were then allied with the Palestinians. For the next
five years, as the civil war waxed and waned in Lebanon with constantly
shifting alliances, Israel continued to support the fascist Christian
militia, to the tune of $100 million a year.

In 1977, the Palestinians surrendered their heavy armaments under the first
phase of the Shtaura agreement whereby the Lebanese government, Syria and
the PLO imposed a freeze on cross-border raids by the Palestinians and
attempted to resolve the civil war. The Israelis responded to this peace
initiative by mounting a provocative and intensive bombing campaign in which
70 people, nearly all Lebanese, were killed. In addition, the Israeli
controlled Haddad militia in Southern Lebanon launched an offensive with
Israeli support aimed at disrupting the Lebanese governments plans to
deploy its army in the south.

In March 1978, Israel invaded Lebanon in retaliation for a terrorist attack
by Palestinian commandos, who had reached Israel by sea from Beirut and
killed 34 Israelis. The bloody invasion led to the death of more than 2,000
people and drove more than 250,000 people from their homes in the south.

Israeli bombardment continued in 1979. The Lebanese government compiled a
list showing the scale Lebanese casualties alone. Nearly 100 Lebanese were
killed or wounded in just one day in April, while nearly 1,000 were killed
and 224 wounded between April and August.

Sharon becomes Minister of Defence

The unexpected re-election of a Likud government with an increased majority
in June 1981 brought a change in Prime Minister Begins cabinet. General
Ariel Sharon, became minister of defence. As a young man Sharon had been in
the Gadna, a paramilitary youth battalion, prior to joining the Haganah, the
underground Jewish Defence Force and forerunner of the IDF.

After the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Sharon led commando
units that specialised in behind the line raids forcing Palestinians to
flee their homes. His Unit 101 had attacked and killed 50 refugees in the
El-Bureig refugee camp south of Gaza, then under Egyptian rule. Sharon first
achieved notoriety in 1953 when, as commander of Unit 101, he invaded Jordan
and blew up at least 45 homes in the West Bank village of Qibya, then under
Jordanian rule. Unit 101 killed 69 people, half of them women and children.

Sharon led other vicious attacks in Jordan, on Gaza, which was then ruled by
Egypt, and Syria. In the early 1970s as head of the armys southern command,
he was responsible for the brutal crackdown on Palestinian resistance in the
Gaza Strip.

In the 1973 war Sharon led the Israeli forces that eventually crossed the
Suez Canal and defeated the Egyptian army, in a campaign that won him as
many enemies as friends, as he disobeyed orders and cease-fire agreements.

In Begins first Likud government, Sharon served as minister of agriculture,
during which he championed the settlers cause. Grab more hills, he
insisted. Whatever is seized will be ours. Whatever isnt seized will end
up in their hands. His goal was to create facts on the ground that would
make it impossible to reach an accommodation with the Palestinians. Sharon
had long espoused an expansionist policy that included Lebanon and his
elevation to the cabinet clearly signified that Israel was about to step up
the military campaign in Lebanon.

Sharons priority, as he was later to explain, was to solve the problem of
Lebanon once and for all. He wanted Arafat and the PLO out of Lebanon, not
just out of the south from where they were shelling Israeli settlements, but
also out of Beirut. He also wanted the Syrians out of Lebanon. They had been
invited into Lebanon in 1976 with the tacit agreement of Israel, to support
the right wing Phalangists and stop the break up of the country. This was a
major error of judgement as far as Sharon was concerned, as it had allowed
the Syrians to take control of Lebanon and thus prevent Israel from moving
on Damascus via Lebanon. Lastly, he wanted a peace treaty between Israel and
Lebanon.

According to Uri Avineri, the liberal Israeli journalist, Sharon had told
him eight months before the invasion of Lebanon in June 1982, that he wanted
to destroy the PLO in Lebanon, put the Phalangists in power making Lebanon a
kind of Christian protectorate, and get the Syrians out of Lebanon. He
wanted to push the Palestinians into Syria in the hope that the Syrians
would drive them down to Jordan, which would then be turned into a
Palestinian state.

To be continued

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gfVd8.11671$0C1.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 10:49:21 PM2/23/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:33:27 GMT, "Arthur L. Rubin"
<216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:

>The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe wrote:
>
>> There are at least two nuclear
>> powers in the Islamic world.
>
>Who? Iraq and Pakistan? I don't know about
>Iraq, but Pakistan probably wouldn't complain
>about their neighbors being invaded by Israel.
>

Yes, but there are hardliners within the government of Pakistan who
clandestinely supported the Taliban and would look favourably upon
assisting a fellow muslim nation. Moreover, it is estimated that Iran
is less than two years away from having a nuclear strike capability.

cb

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 12:34:28 AM2/24/02
to
replying to yourself is a sign of madness.


cb

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 12:59:15 AM2/24/02
to
Not if we "take care of them" as soon as possible. And judging from Bush's
comments we will very soon. But hopefully note before we beat the shit of
Iraq.

James Morris

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:18:55 AM2/24/02
to
Just trying to get a second important message out so the American public
will hopefully realize that the COST of sending billions of US taxpayer
dollars to support Israel's continued brutalization of the Palestinian
people is not worth the COST for us (in the terrorism that such support has
brought to our beloved country). Like with the Oil embargo that we had to
experience in the 1970's (which was because of our support for Israel then
as well), we should cut the billions of US taxpayer dollars provided to
Israel each year. We need to do such in order to protect ourselves from
having to most likely experience even more terrorism and as we have already
had reduction of our civil rights (like we have already experienced with the
US Patriot Act passing after the World Trade Center disaster). I love the
USA and want to save it from any additional harm, and cutting the billions
of US taxpayer dollars that go each year to Israel is the only way to
prevent any future terrorism from happening again within our borders.

At least Europe knows how brutal the Israelis have been to the Palestinians
and won't tolerate such (in that the UN has tried to pass resolutions
condemning such, but the US vetoes them because of the pro-Israeli lobby in
the USA and the Jewish people that act in a conflict of interest working in
the State and Defense Departments as well as in the US Congress which is 50
percent composed of Jewish people when Jewish people are only 1 percent of
the US population, so what kind of agenda is going on there as well?).

"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:oY_d8.4$K85...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

Anonymous

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 6:43:22 AM2/24/02
to
I don't think Bush will go beyond mere saber rattling with Iran. Korea and
China already have nukes, and MRBMs delivery systems. Last I heard, China has
developed its first true ICBM, and when they have it operational, you can bet
your sweet patooty the Koreand will get it too. Part of the reason behind that
hoopla with the Orion, a short while back, was that we were spying on a
chinese sub on trials of such systems.

cb wrote:

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

William Black

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 7:28:29 AM2/24/02
to

James Morris <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:zt0e8.12572

> At least Europe knows how brutal the Israelis have been to the
Palestinians
> and won't tolerate such (in that the UN has tried to pass resolutions
> condemning such, but the US vetoes them because of the pro-Israeli lobby
in
> the USA and the Jewish people that act in a conflict of interest working
in
> the State and Defense Departments as well as in the US Congress which is
50
> percent composed of Jewish people when Jewish people are only 1 percent of
> the US population, so what kind of agenda is going on there as well?).

So it's all a Jewish conspiracy, right?

Braybrook

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 9:05:02 AM2/24/02
to
"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote:

<snip>

| in the US Congress which is 50
| percent composed of Jewish people when Jewish people are only 1 percent of
| the US population,

450 out of 535 Congressmen and Senators say they are Christians.

<snip>

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 9:15:00 AM2/24/02
to

I've never heard of this. So 'Israeli' jets fly over Ramallah 30
minutes before the bombing starts. All the Arab inhabitants of
Ramallah immediately jump into their SUVs and head out of town.
Wait, though. Ramallah's inhabitants don't all own SUVs. Do the rest
of them just stand and wait for the next bus out?

Do 'Israeli' tank shells also whizz around for 30 minutes before
hitting their targets?

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 9:15:03 AM2/24/02
to

You know as well as I do that neither side wants all out war and the
unfortunate consequences this would have for not one but both sides.

J. Guthrie

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 11:19:21 PM2/24/02
to
But James, The demands from these extremists will be endless. We cannot give
them a damned thing. Next time it will be something else. They will always
find fault with us because they want the whole world to obey them.
I personnally feel the US should just refuse any more scheduled aid payments
to Israel while they are actively stealing Palestinian land. If the land
stealing stopped, aid could resume. That would be a good start, and would
show a reasonable balance. We should have done it fifteen years ago.

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:zt0e8.12572$0C1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

cb

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 2:23:10 AM2/25/02
to
Again replying to yourself isn't a way to get "another important message" to
the American public.

> Just trying to get a second important message out so the American public

> "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

cb

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 2:25:19 AM2/25/02
to
I guess we will never know how deep this Jewish conspiracy goes :-)

Homer Simpson: "You don't know how big this gov't is. It goes all the way to
the president". "Trillion $ bill Episode".

cb

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 2:52:18 AM2/25/02
to
agree with you on Korea and you might be right on Iran but we'll definitely
get Maddass Hussein.
"Anonymous" <anon...@anonymous.anonymous> wrote in message


cb

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 2:55:46 AM2/25/02
to
weather or not you believe me Israeli Jets do fly around their targets for
half an hour so that t innocent people have the chance to get away. The
bottomline is that Israelis do everything possible to avoid civilian
casualties Pals do everything possible to inflict larger civilian
casualties.


Roger Perkins

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 10:51:42 AM2/25/02
to
How about actively refusing any further aid to the PLO and Syria and others
while they are actively attacking Israel? And, since Palestine is not a
nation, they aren't stealing anything. They are occupying territory as
allowed under international law.

Screw the Palestinians. They have been their own worse enemy for decades
and now that Israel is finally getting fed up with them you guys are saying
THEY are the terrorists. Interesting how you can just ignore - what? - 30
years of active attacks against Israel in order to kiss some Arabs ass.

And I am a Baptist, not Jewish, and you are damn right I am biased. This
has gone on too lone with people trying to hold the Arabs hand while they
insist on remaining in the middle ages.

Roger
AIRBORNE!

"J. Guthrie" <stackc...@home.com> wrote in message
news:dXie8.21824$BW5.9...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...

Roger Perkins

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 10:52:22 AM2/25/02
to
Plus, this ng is hardly the "American public". You're fooling yourself on
that.

Roger
AIRBORNE!

"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:sEle8.8$oR5...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

M.J.Powell

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 4:13:48 PM2/25/02
to
In article <a55trr$6bq$1...@helle.btinternet.com>, William Black
<black_...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
>
>> >As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a
>matter
>> >of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>>
>> Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?
>
>Does the US Airforce?
>
>If you can't tell the difference between policy and unfortunate accident
>then it's you who's got a problem.

I can tell the difference, but it wasn't me who was arguing!

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

M.J.Powell

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 4:12:22 PM2/25/02
to
In article <mthd8.14$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes
>Do you make difference between killing civilians and killing armed personnel

You first.

Mike

>"M.J.Powell" <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
>> >>

>> >> >> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people
>> >stupid?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I didn't know that. Since when?
>> >> >
>> >> >Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their
>> >goals.
>> >>
>> >> And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
>> >> children) in retaliation.


>> >
>> >As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a
>matter
>> >of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>>
>> Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?
>>

>> Mike
>> --
>> M.J.Powell
>
>

--
M.J.Powell

M.J.Powell

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 4:15:31 PM2/25/02
to
In article <27me8.14$oR5...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes


But..but.but how do they know what the target is?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 4:45:09 PM2/25/02
to

Your 'bottomline' is an out and out fabrication. 'Israel' is totally
indifferent to 'incidental' civilian casualties.

cb

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 2:17:18 AM2/26/02
to
Since Israel ahs one of the best militaries in the world I can guarantee
that if they were indifferent to civilian casualties entire ME would go to
see Allah long time ago. In the entire year of fighting they have killed
only 800 people most of whom were militants anyway. In just one hour muslime
terrorists have killed off 3000 Americans. Now who is indifferent to

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 2:14:34 AM2/26/02
to

You appear to be repeating yourself.

http://www.jmcc.org/new/01/Jun/childaqsa.htm
will give you the names of 137 'militants' between the ages of 4
months and 17 years killed by 'Israel' in the 9 months up to June
2001.

The behaviour of Al-Q'eda extremists on 11th September should not be
used as a yardstick by which to judge the actions of the state of
'Israel'.

Fergus O'Rourke

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 7:08:15 AM2/26/02
to
"Roger Perkins" <roge...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:i4te8.23441$dK1.91065@rwcrnsc54...
(snip)

> How about actively refusing any further aid to the PLO and Syria and
others
> while they are actively attacking Israel? And, since Palestine is not a
> nation, they aren't stealing anything. They are occupying territory as
> allowed under international law. (snip)

Is there such a thing as "international law" ? America's position seems to
be
that there isn't, unless it conforms identically to U.S. law, and then only
if
U.S. cabinet members are allowed to interpret it definitively.

William Black

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 1:52:00 PM2/26/02
to

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c7aaf8c...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 02:55:46 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>

> Your 'bottomline' is an out and out fabrication. 'Israel' is totally
> indifferent to 'incidental' civilian casualties.

Then why aren't they carpet bombing and firebombing at random?

I mean, the publicity couldn't get any worse...

Charles Gray

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 3:01:34 PM2/26/02
to
More, international customs. As I understand it, treaties signed by
the U.S, and ratified by congress have the strength of law. As far as
occupying territory under international law-- he's right, countries
can occupy territory, but not seek to change their borders by doing
so, and therefore, the settlements are illegal. Were Israel to pull
them out and state they are holding on to the territories solely to
maintain the safety of the state, it would put an entirely different
complexion on the affair-- and in fact a good chunk of Isreali's would
prefer that, since they don't overly like the right wing nuts that
tend to infest settlements.

cb

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 8:36:27 PM2/26/02
to
So out of 800+ pals killed 137 were innocent civilians who were the rest may
I ask you. Now I ask you this out of 200+ Israelis killed how many have been
innocent civilians.??
Care to answer?

Roger Perkins

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 11:30:54 PM2/26/02
to
You obviously have not concept of what you are talking about.

International law only applies when the participant states agree and it
never applies to individuals... only states. And the US is probably one of
the staunchest supporter of international law, to include the Law of the
Sea.

Read up, O'Rourke!

Roger
AIRBORNE!

"Fergus O'Rourke" <callasbe...@tinet.ie> wrote in message
news:IPNe8.3812$W8.2...@news.indigo.ie...

Roger Perkins

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 11:37:23 PM2/26/02
to
Several ways to gain territory under international law. Some are:

Conquest and Annexation - Conquest is the preferred method of territorial
acquisition and has been used frequently over the years with great success.
However, taking territory was not the end of the process. The occupying
power must extend it's laws and such over the new land. This is probably
what applies.
Prescription - another state occupies an area for many years - without
serious objection - and it may be considered abandoned and the second state
would assume possession.
Accretion - This is simply the addition of land through natural process,
such as the
movement of a river that changes a border.
Acquisition of Rights - This means one country exercises sovereignty without
the land actually changing hands. Lease is the usual method. The Panama
Canal Zone and Guantamino Naval Base are good examples.

Ah, the benefits of a classical education. Thanks, Boston U.

Roger
AIRBORNE!


"Charles Gray" <nu...@null.net> wrote in message
news:3c7be8cc...@news.earthlink.net...

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 10:49:12 PM2/26/02
to
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:52:00 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
>news:3c7aaf8c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 02:55:46 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>
>> Your 'bottomline' is an out and out fabrication. 'Israel' is totally
>> indifferent to 'incidental' civilian casualties.
>
>Then why aren't they carpet bombing and firebombing at random?

I thought they already were.

>I mean, the publicity couldn't get any worse...

Quite rightly. They appear to be unfamiliar with the phrase 'moral
high ground'.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 11:57:49 PM2/26/02
to
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:37:23 GMT, "Roger Perkins"
<roge...@attbi.com> wrote:


>Ah, the benefits of a classical education. Thanks, Boston U.

BU is a joke. For a real education, cross the Charles River.

Paul Mulcahy

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 3:43:32 AM2/27/02
to
Dear deluded man, do you really think that the terrorist attack will stop if
Israel leaves the occupied territories?

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:gfVd8.11671$0C1.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> From The Daily Telegraph newspaper in the United Kingdom on February 23,
> 2002:
>
>
http://www.dailytelegraph.com/opinion/Content/displayPopup.jhtml?xml=/opinio
> n/2002/02/23/dt2305.xml&site=15
>
> SIR - Impasse is defined as deadlock, a static situation that is unlikely
to
> improve or get worse. Sadly, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is at the
> threshold of a new catastrophic phase that threatens to inflict yet more
> pain and destruction on both sides.
>
> The Palestinians risk losing a lot more lives and suffering greater
penury,
> while the Israelis risk the disintegration of their Jewish state. The
> strategy of Ariel Sharon and his government has managed only to unite
> Israeli and Palestinian extremists in their endeavours to wreck all
chances
> for peace.
>
> As all attempts at a fair and durable settlement by old and stale
> politicians of both sides have only made matters worse, the time has come
to
> think the previously unthinkable. Both populations are crying out for a
new
> generation of leaders willing to start with a clean sheet.
>
> As Israel is the more powerful of the two, it bears a greater
> responsibility. There is an urgent need for a far-sighted Israeli
statesman
> to emerge in order to convince his people that the very existence of
Israel
> depends on a just and peaceful settlement with the Palestinians. It is in
> the long-term interest of Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders,
dismantle
> Jewish settlements and recognise an independent state of Palestine. The
two
> sovereign states can then sit down to negotiate a permanent settlement as
> two equal partners.
>
> As Muslims celebrate Eid al-Adha to commemorate the great sacrifice of
> Abraham, the father of the three great monotheistic faiths, it is time to
> sacrifice pride, arrogance, lust for power and extremism for the sake of
> justice and permanent peace for all of Abraham's grandchildren.
>
> From:
> Dr Suheil Aranki, London SE21
>
>


The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 4:45:39 AM2/27/02
to
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:43:32 GMT, "Paul Mulcahy"
<pmul...@satx.rr.com> wrote:

>Dear deluded man, do you really think that the terrorist attack will stop if
>Israel leaves the occupied territories?

All the land presently occupied by 'Israel' consists of occupied
territories. If the jews leave, I can guarantee that these so-called
'terrorist attacks' will stop.

Paul Mulcahy

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 7:31:19 AM2/27/02
to
If every single Jew were to leave Israel, the terrorists would turn their
skills to people living overseas, or on to their own people. You see, the
terrorists do not want peace; if there is peace, they become irrelevant and
unneccessary. And therefore powerless. And that is the last thing they
want.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message

news:3c7caaa1...@news.cis.dfn.de...

Esquilax

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 8:07:43 AM2/27/02
to
"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:43:32 GMT, "Paul Mulcahy"
>

> >Dear deluded man, do you really think that the terrorist attack will stop if
> >Israel leaves the occupied territories?
>
> All the land presently occupied by 'Israel' consists of occupied
> territories. If the jews leave, I can guarantee that these so-called
> 'terrorist attacks' will stop.

common sense should tell you that sovereign rights over land strengthen
over time (regardless of how the land was acquired) because the subsequent
generations born there share a reducing (or perhaps no) liability for its current
possession.

phil.

Roger Perkins

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 9:34:48 AM2/27/02
to
Oh... so you want the destruction of the State of Israel. And the "Jews".
Too bad about the Arabs, Christians, and others living there, huh?

Sorry.. though you had a brain.

Roger
AIRBORNE!

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c7caaa1...@news.cis.dfn.de...

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 11:27:20 AM2/27/02
to

Who said anything about Arabs or Christians leaving?

Sorry.. thought you could read.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 11:27:22 AM2/27/02
to
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:07:43 +0000 (UTC), "Esquilax" <an...@mouse.com>
wrote:

Common sense has no place in Middle East politics. And besides, most
of the population of 'Israel' are immigrants.

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