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Israeli Settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are Illegal..

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James Morris

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Feb 17, 2002, 2:39:44 PM2/17/02
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What about the Husayn-McMahon Correspondence in which the British promised
the Arabs self-determination in the Arab lands (to include Palestine). This
Husayn-McMahon Correspondence was initiated in July of 1915 and was before
Sykes-Picot (which was ratified in May 1916) and before the Balfour
Declaration as well (which was in November of 1917). As I am British as well
as American, the British promised the Arabs Palestine in return for their
rising up against the Ottomans, however, the British didn't honor the
Husayn-McMahon Correspondence...

I don't support violence. However, those Israeli settlements on Palestinian
land in the occupied terrorities are illegal and should not be there per UN
Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Also, the Mitchell Plan is against
those
settlements as well. Yet, Israel continues to defy the Mitchell Plan in
building them. The USA should cut off aid to Israel as supporting Israel is
NOT worth the cost... If someone kept encroaching on my land (with
settlements and such), I would be pretty upset about it as well (and I
wouldn't just "roll over" like the arrogant Israelis expect the Palestinians
to do).

Look at the cost of supporting Israel for the USA taxpayer (three billion a
year which facilitates the continued Israeli brutalization of the
Palestinian people which then contributes to terrorism against our country
like what happened with the World Trade Center and then the cost in billions
of dollars of having to defend against such terrorism because of our flawed
and biased policy of such one-sided support for Israel because of the
pro-Israel lobby and close to 50 percent of the US Congress is pro-Israel
(Jewish) when Jewish people constitute only 1 percent of the US population,
so there is apparently an agenda going on).

Even more spin on behalf of the apartheid-like state of Israel which
continues to brutalize the Palestinians (with billions of USA taxpayer
dollar aid to facilitate such) which has contributed to the terrorism that
we have experienced in our beloved United States.. It is time for the USA to
stop taking sides in a "holy war" that is only contributing to terrorism and
diminishing our civil rights as well.

"PNEWS.ORG" <ch...@fdn.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.020217...@shell.fdn.com...
>
> Good points Roderick. Of course Israel is NOT interested in promoting any
> aggressive and they're not stupid. When political pressure will work it is
> preferred over any military action where innocent people will be killed as
> collateral effects of any war. Nobody in their right mind wants that - but
> the Arab sympathizers here appear to support the wrong side, even when it
> means possible harm to U.S. citizens.
>
> TheGolem
> http://pnews.org/
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2002, Roderick S. Beck wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > Stop the nonsense. Calling Israel an apartheid state shows the depth of
> > your ignorance.
> >
> > As a state committed to democracy and human rights, Americans have an
> > obligation to suppot the only Middle East state that honors those values
> > - Israel.
> >
> > None of the Arab states are functioning democracies and they are all
> > guilty of rampant human violations.
> >
> > It is also nonsense to claim that Jews are pushing for an attack on
> > Iraq. You will find a lot more Gentiles, both in absolute numbers and as
> > a percentage, pushing for intervention in Iraq.
> >
> > - R.
> >
> > PS: Think before you write.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Morris wrote:
> >
> > >Israel is an apartheid state with a war criminal (in Ariel Sharon) as
its
> > >leader, and the USA hypocritically supports such (when Sharon is still
> > >wanted for his "Butcher of Lebanon" war crimes in Belgium). The USA
made
> > >sure that Milosevic rightfully gets tried (at the The Hague) as the war
> > >criminal that he is. Yet, President Bush uses a convenient double
standard
> > >to "look the other way" with Sharon... No wonder the Arab world hates
the
> > >USA and has marked us as a target for terrorism. Check out the opinion
piece
> > >(included below) about the war crimes that Sharon is wanted for in
> > >Belgium...
> > >
> > >The three billion USA taxpayer dollar support that is given annually to
> > >Israel would be better spent at home in the USA. Instead, such
multi-billion
> > >dollar support to Israel has contributed to terrorism within our
borders
> > >such as what happened with the World Trade Center disaster. As a
result, we
> > >have also had our civil rights diminished (such as with the Patriot Act
> > >passed in Congress after the World Trade Center bombing) and increased
> > >security (at airports and similar) which has been an inconvenience as
> > >well... The USA support of Israel is NOT worth the cost, and now
pro-Israel
> > >(Jewish) people (in the State and Defense Departments as well as in the
US
> > >Congress) are in a blatant conflict of interest (from my objective and
> > >unbiased perspective) by pushing for the USA to attack Iraq (and
possibly
> > >Iran as well) for the benefit of Israel.. Those same people support
(and
> > >vote in the US Congress) to keep the billions of dollars of USA
taxpayer
> > >dollar aid going for Israel each year. If such isn't a blatant conflict
of
> > >interest, then what is it?! When the communication director (for US
> > >Congresswoman McKinley) brought such up recently (about Israel's
occupation
> > >of the US Congress as to include members of the foreign relations
> > >committees), he was asked to resign.. Again, I ask the American people:
> > >Should one percent of the population have so much control of the USA
> > >government (and the resulting US Policy which is flawed because of such
a
> > >blatant conflict of interest)?! I think not. Heck, if we had
German-American
> > >members of the US Congress voting in favor of the Nazis in World War 2
(or
> > >before) and getting them US taxpayer dollars as well, would we have
> > >tolerated such? I would hope not...
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net>
> > >Newsgroups:
> >
>talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
,
> > >soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 2:35 PM
> > >Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> > >
> > >
> > >>Listen to the spin from this guy as it is a known fact that Isael
> > >>
> > >basically
> > >
> > >>"blackmailed" the USA (taxpayers) into paying millions to settle more
> > >>Russian Jews into Israel in return for Israel not to attack Iraq after
the
> > >>Scuds hit (as Israel attacking Iraq then would have broken up the
> > >>international coalition). Such was even more blown money that the USA
had
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>pay the apartheid state of Israel because of the pro-Israeli lobby in
the
> > >>USA.
> > >>
> > >>Also, how many US Congressmen (including US senators are pro-Israel
> > >>
> > >because
> > >
> > >>they are Jewish and vote in favor of ongoing support of Israel which
is a
> > >>blatant conflict of interest as Jewish people compose about 1 percent
of
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>US population yet they compose about 50 percent of the US Congress).
How
> > >>
> > >so
> > >
> > >>as there seems to be some kind of agenda there? Also, Israel is trying
to
> > >>get the USA to attack Iraq for Israel's benefit... Cut the billions of
> > >>dollars of annual USA taxpayer aid to Israel, and we will most likely
see
> > >>our terrorism problem evaporate... The USA has no business taking
sides in
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>"holy war" (just because of a strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA)
which
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>contributing to further terrorism within our borders that we don't
need as
> > >>such is obviously unacceptable as well.
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: der...@alhayat.com
> > >>Cc: ra...@alhayat.com ; ledi...@alhayat.com ; ma...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>mus...@alhayat.com ; zou...@alhayat.com ; iska...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>bcha...@alhayat.com ; ba...@alhayat.com ; gcha...@alhayat.com ;
> > >>geo...@alhayat.com
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:24 AM
> > >>Subject: Fw: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Ms. Dergham,
> > >>
> > >>You were absolutely accurate with what you said on the ABC Nightline
> > >>television news program (in the USA) last night with regard to the
double
> > >>standard of Israel having nuclear weapons. Also, your comments on an
> > >>
> > >earlier
> > >
> > >>Nightline were excellent as well (with regard to the biased pro-Israel
> > >>policy by the USA that contributed to the World Trade Center
disaster). I
> > >>think you might find the following to be of interest (to include the
> > >>
> > >opinion
> > >
> > >>pieces below which appeared in the UCLA Daily Bruin university
newspaper).
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>---- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: onthe...@foxnews.com
> > >>greta.va...@foxnews.com
> > >>Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:13 PM
> > >>Subject: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Greta,
> > >>
> > >>How about Ariel Sharon and what he did with the massacre at the
> > >>
> > >Palestinian
> > >
> > >>refugee camps in Lebanon (as mentioned in the opinion piece included
> > >>
> > >below).
> > >
> > >>Why such a double standard? Especially when Sharon is wanted for such
war
> > >>crimes in Belgium, and you don't even cover it.. Nor do any of the
other
> > >>
> > >USA
> > >
> > >>networks from what I have seen thus far...
> > >>
> > >>With kindest regards,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: tony...@foxnews.com
> > >>Cc: Congressman McKeon ; in...@kyl.senate.gov ;
sen...@kennedy.senate.gov
> > >>
> > >;
> > >
> > >>sen...@akaka.senate.gov ; senato...@byrd.senate.gov ;
> > >>senator_...@domenici.senate.gov ; sen...@dorgan.senate.gov ;
> > >>di...@durbin.senate.gov ; senato...@leahy.senate.gov ;
> > >>blanche...@lincoln.senate.gov ; senat...@lott.senate.gov ;
> > >>senato...@lugar.senate.gov ; john_...@mccain.senate.gov ;
> > >>sen...@mcconnell.senate.gov ; comm...@foxnews.com ;
com...@foxnews.com
> > >>Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:12 AM
> > >>
> > >>Subject: Many Americans Not in Support of What was Just Mentioned on
the
> > >>
> > >Fox
> > >
> > >>News Channel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>With regard to Senator Kyl's comments just now with Tony Snow on the
Fox
> > >>News Channel (about our ongoing support for the Israeli Army's
continued
> > >>brutalization of the Palestinian people which has tragically
contributed
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>terrorism being experienced within the USA which is absolutely
> > >>unacceptable), many Americans such as myself want the US Government to
cut
> > >>or substantially reduce the three billion dollar annual support to
Israel
> > >>
> > >as
> > >
> > >>our terrorism problem would most likely soon evaporate thereafter.
Europe
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>not alone in its condemnation of the apartheid policy that Israel has
> > >>against the Palestian people.
> > >>
> > >>Please review the recent opinion pieces (which appeared in the UCLA
Daily
> > >>Bruin newspaper) and the radio interview of Robert Fisk (who is based
in
> > >>Beirut and covers the Middle East for the UK Independent newspaper)
which
> > >>are both included below. In closing, the USA has no business taking
sides
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>a "holy war" as such has been taking place for years because of the
strong
> > >>pro-Israel lobby in our country.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: mma...@hotmail.com
> > >>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:11 PM
> > >>Subject: Your Opinion Piece (about Sharon) in the UCLA Daily Bruin was
> > >>Excellent...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Ali,
> > >>
> > >>As I am not Jewish (Israeli) nor Palestian, I think you will find the
> > >>following to be of interest (especially the mention of Robert Fisk who
is
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>reporter based in Beirut who covers the Middle East for the
Independent
> > >>newspaper in the UK as his perspective on the Middle East is excellent
and
> > >>can be listened to as well via the Web site provided below). Your
opinion
> > >>piece about the brutal nature of Ariel Sharon (which is included
below)
> > >>
> > >from
> > >
> > >>the UCLA Daily Bruin was excellent. You might want to check out the
> > >>following Web sites as well:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.bitterlemons.org
> > >>
> > >>http://www.memri.org
> > >>
> > >>http://www.debka.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: pressin...@rezapahlavi.org
> > >>Cc: rp...@postmark.net
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:58 PM
> > >>Subject: Fox News Channel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Pahlavi,
> > >>
> > >>I saw your interview moments ago on the Fox News Channel and just
checked
> > >>out your interesting Web site (http://www.rezapahlavi.org). Sean
Hannity
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>very pro-Israel and apparently wants America to attack Iran in an
attempt
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >>neutralize Iran for Israel's benefit. I (and many other Americans)
have no
> > >>interest in continuing to support Israel as such multi-billion annual
> > >>support (by the USA) contributed to the tragic terrorism with the
World
> > >>Trade Center disaster. Please read the following at your convenience
as I
> > >>think you will find it to be interesting (especially the mention of
Robert
> > >>Fisk who covers the Middle East for the Independent Newspaper in the
UK as
> > >>Mr. Fisk's perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict is excellent).
If
> > >>interested further, you can access a recent radio NPR interview with
Mr.
> > >>Fisk by following the instructions which are included below as well.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:11 PM
> > >>Subject: Region in Conflict (Rebellion in the Israeli Army about
Serving
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>the Occupied Terrorities)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Ms. Schaefer,
> > >>
> > >>As you are the senior producer of "Region in Conflict", I thought that
you
> > >>might find this email to be of interest (could you forward such to
> > >>Ms.Banfield if possible). Ashleigh Banfield (and "Region in Conflict")
has
> > >>been excellent. Are you going to cover the following (which is what
BBC
> > >>
> > >had
> > >
> > >>as part of their "World News" coverage in the USA yesterday on PBS)
about
> > >>the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about reservists not wanting to
serve
> > >>
> > >in
> > >
> > >>the territories)?:
> > >>
> > >
> >
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/1795362.s
t
> > >m
> > >
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: craig...@nbc.com
> > >>Cc: ashleigh...@msnbc.com
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:23 PM
> > >>Subject: Fw: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the
USA
> > >>Earlier Today
> > >>Even though she seems to be pro-Israel, Ashleigh has still been fair
thus
> > >>far in reporting both sides in the Arab v. Israeli conflict as I look
> > >>forward to seeing her additional shows... However, it would have been
very
> > >>informative if she could have interviewed Robert Fisk who is a
reporter
> > >>based in Beirut and covers the Middle East for the Independent
newspaper
> > >>(http://www.independent.co.uk) in the UK as he was recently
interviewed
> > >>
> > >(on
> > >
> > >>January 25th, 2002) for the "To the Point" program on National Public
> > >>
> > >Radio
> > >
> > >>(NPR) as his perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict was
excellent.
> > >>
> > >>If interested, Ashleigh (and/or her producers) could listen to Mr.
Fisk's
> > >>interview from that "To the Point" program by accessing
> > >>
> > >http://www.kcrw.org
> > >
> > >>and clicking on "To the Point" and then clicking on the January 25th,
2002
> > >>broadcast (Real Player 7 which can be downloaded for free from
> > >>http://www.real.com is needed in order to listen to Mr. Fisk's
interview).
> > >>Also, some of Mr. Fisk's recent articles are included below. So is
> > >>
> > >Ashleigh
> > >
> > >>going to cover the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about not wanting to
> > >>
> > >serve
> > >
> > >>in the occupied terroritories) that aired on BBC World News this
evening
> > >>(Friday, February 1st, 2002) as the following article is about such?:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >>
> > >>There is also an excellent opinion piece (included below) which
mentioned
> > >>how Ariel Sharon is the problem (especially with how he is wanted as a
war
> > >>criminal in Belgium for his involvement in allowing the Palestinians
to be
> > >>slaughtered at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon).
> > >>
> > >>If peace is not reached ASAP between the Israelis and the
Palestinians,
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>USA is most likely (and unfortunately) going to experience even more
> > >>
> > >tragic
> > >
> > >>terrorism as continuing to support Israel (with three billion dollars
a
> > >>year) is not worth the cost. American bombs and similar fall on the
> > >>Palestinians, and the Arab world (to include Bin Laden) knows it. Why
> > >>doesn't Congress use the "power of the purse" to cut aid to Israel in
> > >>
> > >order
> > >
> > >>to force it to adopt the Mitchell Plan which calls for an end to the
> > >>settlements in the occupied terrorities.
> > >>
> > >>With kind regards,
> > >>
> > >>Jim Morris
> > >>
> > >>Forwarded:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:56 PM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk is Excellent with his coverage for the
Independent...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=117593
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116255
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116256
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116073
> > >>
> > >>http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116349
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>
> > >>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:03 AM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Hi Chris,
> > >>
> > >>Check out what Robert Fisk has to say about the Middle East as he
reflects
> > >>my position as well (you can hear his interview by accessing
www.kcrw.org
> > >>and click on "To the Point" and access the January 25th, 2002 program
as
> > >>Robert Fisk is a reporter for the Independent newspaper in the UK. You
can
> > >>listen to his recent interview from January 25th, 2002 on "To the
Point"
> > >>
> > >by
> > >
> > >>accessing http://www.moretothepoint.com as well...
> > >>
> > >>Check out the line-up at the following Web site for that KCRW FM 89.9
> > >>
> > >radio
> > >
> > >>station in Los Angeles:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.kcrw.org
> > >>
> > >>http://moretothepoint.com
> > >>
> > >>Click on January 25th....
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >>From: James Morris
> > >>To: newse...@independent.co.uk
> > >>Cc: rober...@independent.co.uk
> > >>Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:57 PM
> > >>Subject: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the USA
> > >>Earlier Today
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Dear Mr. Fisk,
> > >>
> > >>I am emailing you to let you know that you were absolutely excellent
in
> > >>presenting your points during the Middle East segment with the "To the
> > >>Point" radio program via NPI earlier today in the United States. I
> > >>completely agree with you about the Arab v. Israeli situation and
> > >>
> > >America's
> > >
> > >>bias with such. I just wish more radio and television programs would
have
> > >>you on as a guest here in the USA. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby
(along
> > >>with many pro-Israel Jewish supporters in the US Congress-which is a
> > >>conflict of interest from my perspective especially when they sit on
> > >>
> > >foreign
> > >
> > >>relations committees and make policy decisions concerning America's
> > >>
> > >ongoing
> > >
> > >>support for Israel) influences the US government to provide three
billion
> > >>dollars a year in order to facilitate Israel's ongoing brutalization
of
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>Palestinian people (which has contributed to tragic terrorism such as
the
> > >>World Trade Center disaster). If America doesn't address such ASAP,
one
> > >>
> > >can
> > >
> > >>only expect further terrorism which is unacceptable.
> > >>
> > >>With kindest regards,
> > >>
> > >>James Morris
> > >>Los Angeles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17769
> > >>
> > >>By Mujtaba Ali
> > >>In their submission "Palestinian leader fosters global terrorism"
(Daily
> > >>Bruin, Viewpoint, Dec. 6, 2001), Benjamin Nabati and Jacob Zakaria
suggest
> > >>that the leadership of Yasser Arafat is the only obstacle impeding
hopes
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>peace in the Middle East.
> > >>
> > >>What they fail to acknowledge, however, is the sadistic nature of and
> > >>history of atrocities committed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon.
> > >>
> > >The
> > >
> > >>writers state, "If (Arafat) had delivered, the attacks of the intifada
of
> > >>the past 15 months would not have occurred." What the writers do not
> > >>
> > >mention
> > >
> > >>is that Sharon himself provoked the recent onset of violence when he
and
> > >>
> > >an
> > >
> > >>armed entourage visited a site holy to both Arabs and Israelis last
> > >>September.
> > >>
> > >>Over the years, Sharon has acquired an infamous reputation as a
violent
> > >>
> > >man
> > >
> > >>who feels the military is the only solution to political issues.
Sharon,
> > >>with his involvement in the Israeli Defense Force, has been practicing
> > >>state-sponsored terrorism for the past 50 years.
> > >>
> > >>In the summer of 1953, Sharon built the notorious IDF terrorist group,
> > >>
> > >known
> > >
> > >>as Unit 101, whose main purpose was to conduct "retaliatory strikes"
> > >>
> > >against
> > >
> > >>the neighboring Arab states. Unit 101 was generally independent from
the
> > >>regular IDF forces and was responsible for many atrocities, including
the
> > >>massacres of civilians and the destruction of villages in the
Jordanian
> > >>
> > >West
> > >
> > >>Bank. Most notorious was the raid and destruction of the Qibya village
on
> > >>Oct. 14, 1953 in which 40 homes occupied by Arab families were blown
up
> > >>without warning. More than 50 innocent men, women and children lost
their
> > >>lives.
> > >>
> > >>In the 1956 Suez War in Egypt, Sharon employed ruthless tactics and
was
> > >>charged with committing war crimes in his execution of Egyptian POWs.
His
> > >>actions led IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan to force Sharon's
withdrawal
> > >>
> > >from
> > >
> > >>Egypt.
> > >>
> > >>Sharon was recalled to military service in the October 1973 War, where
he
> > >>led several operations. During the Great Bitter Lake Battle, which led
to
> > >>the crossing of the Suez Canal towards mainland Egypt, Sharon again
> > >>committed war crimes against Egyptians, and once again clashed with
the
> > >>chief of staff and defense minister, resulting in his dismissal from
the
> > >>IDF.
> > >>
> > >>Upon being appointed Israeli Defense Minister in 1981, Sharon was held
> > >>responsible for his involvement in the infamous massacre at the Sabra
and
> > >>Shatilla refugee camps in southern Lebanon on Sept. 16, 1982. Sharon
and
> > >>then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin called for the murderous
> > >>
> > >rampage
> > >
> > >>of innocent, unarmed Palestinian refugees - mostly women, children and
the
> > >>elderly.
> > >>
> > >>Western journalists who reported the incident described in horrifying
> > >>
> > >detail
> > >
> > >>the piles of dead men, raped and mutilated women, and murdered
children.
> > >>
> > >The
> > >
> > >>International Committee of the Red Cross reported 2,400 fatalities in
the
> > >>massacre. This figure was a modest estimate of the true number of
lives
> > >>lost, since many of the victims were buried in mass graves dug by the
> > >>Israeli army and its ally, a Lebanese-Christian militia.
> > >>
> > >>On Dec. 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the
> > >>
> > >massacre
> > >
> > >>and declared it to be an act of genocide. The rape of Sabra and
Shatilla
> > >>earned Sharon the condemnation of the world as well as denunciation by
the
> > >>Israeli parliament, the Knesset. He was forced to resign as Defense
> > >>
> > >Minister
> > >
> > >>in 1983.
> > >>
> > >>The number of times Israel has been condemned by the United Nations
should
> > >>serve as an indication of the type of belligerent activity it carries
out.
> > >>Many of the U.N. resolutions against Israel were passed unanimously -
the
> > >>United States, Israel's longtime ally, was among the few countries
> > >>
> > >opposing
> > >
> > >>the resolutions.
> > >>
> > >>Nabati and Zakaria state: "Israelis do not intentionally go after
> > >>Palestinian civilians. The Israeli Defense Force gives more than 48
hours
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>warning time before a building verified as housing terrorist functions
is
> > >>destroyed, to clear away."
> > >>
> > >>This statement does not explain the death of 11-year-old Khalil
> > >>
> > >al-Mughrabi
> > >
> > >>who was playing soccer with a group of children on July 7, 2001, when
a
> > >>burst of gunfire hit him in the head, killing him and wounding two of
his
> > >>friends, ages 10 and 12.
> > >>
> > >>The IDF terrorist who committed this murder was vindicated by the
Israeli
> > >>Military Advocate General's office as having "acted with restraint and
> > >>control" in an attempt to disperse nearby protesters by "firing live
> > >>
> > >gunfire
> > >
> > >>into an open area distant from the rioters." Those bullets fired by
the
> > >>soldier somehow found their way to a playground and into an innocent
boy's
> > >>head. This is not an isolated incident. It is among the hundreds of
> > >>terrorist acts committed by the IDF on a regular basis.
> > >>
> > >>The aforementioned quote neither explains the numbers of fatalities
since
> > >>the start of the present conflict, statistics which speak for
themselves.
> > >>
> > >Of
> > >
> > >>the approximately 961 people who have died in the past 15 months, 739
have
> > >>been Palestinian; 152 of whom were under the age of 18.
> > >>
> > >>So, after this dose of easily verifiable evidence, employ some
rational
> > >>thought and decide who the aggressor in this conflict really is:
Sharon -
> > >>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>sadistic butcher, currently on trial in Belgium for war crimes,
condemned
> > >>
> > >by
> > >
> > >>the international community as well as the Israeli people; or Arafat,
who
> > >>had arrested 180 people in the week following the Jerusalem suicide
> > >>
> > >bombing
> > >
> > >>in December, and who (along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin) won
the
> > >>Nobel Peace Prize in 1994?
> > >>
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >From: Looking for the truth
> > >Newsgroups:
> >
>talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
,
> > >soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 2:12 PM
> > >Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> > >
> > >
> > >this is how USA get repaid by its "frieds"
> > >
> > >Zionist Terror Against the United States
> > >
> > >Americans have also suffered from Zionist terror. In fact, Israel has
> > >committed a number of acts of war against the United States.
> > >
> > >Israel has a long record of terrorism against the United States going
all
> > >the way back to 1954. In that year, the Israel government plotted to
blow up
> > >American installations in Cairo and Alexandria and blame it on Egyptian
> > >nationals. By chance the plot failed and was uncovered. It was named
the
> > >Lavon Affair after the man who supposedly set up the terrorism, Pinhas
> > >Lavon, the Israeli Defense Chief. He resigned in 1955 over the
incident. 7
> > >
> > >In 1967, Israel purposefully attacked with unmarked jet fighters and
torpedo
> > >boats, the U.S.S. Liberty, an American Navy vessel of the Sinai
Peninsula,
> > >even machine gunning the deployed life rafts of the ship. The attack
killed
> > >31 American servicemen and wounded over 170. 8 They sought to sink the
ship,
> > >kill all the Americans and blame it on the Egyptians so they could have
> > >American support to conquer larger areas of the Arab world.
> > >
> > >The attack on the Liberty was nothing short of a vicious act of war
against
> > >the United States by Israel. In spite of the fact that U.S. Secretary
of
> > >State Dean Rusk and navy chief Admiral Moorer said that the attack on
the
> > >USS Liberty by Israel was deliberate, the all-powerful Zionist Lobby
> > >prevented a formal Congressional investigation. If the Lobby can even
cover
> > >up horrendous Israeli crimes against America, it's no wonder they can
cover
> > >up Israel's endless crimes against the Palestinians. Yet, after the
Liberty
> > >attack America didn't even reduce our billions of dollars of aid, in
fact
> > >the story quickly vanished from the news after a few short days.
> > >
> > >In 1986 Israel actually caused us to wrongly go to war and militarily
attack
> > >another nation. The Mossad planted a transmitter in Tripoli, Libya and
then
> > >broadcast terrorist messages in Libyan code indicating Libyan
responsibility
> > >for killing two Americans in the bombing of the La Belle discothèque in
> > >Germany. 9 (It was later proven that Libya had nothing to do with the
> > >bombing) By use of this fraud, Israel induced the American bombing of
Libya.
> > >American bombs wrecked havoc there. One of those killed was the infant
> > >daughter of the Libyan President. It is certainly a dastardly act of
war
> > >against a nation to induce it into wrongly attacking another nation.
Only a
> > >truly evil enemy of America would do such a thing.
> > >
> > >Every Palestinian and Arab is aware that Israel's half century of
terror
> > >could never have occurred without the active financial, military, and
> > >diplomatic support of the United States. They know that the Jewish
Lobby has
> > >control of American Mideast Policy and the Zionists can get whatever
they
> > >want from Congress on issues important to them.
> > >
> > >It was American support of Israel's brutal invasion and occupation of
> > >Lebanon in the 1980s that led directly to the bombing of the U.S.
> > >
> > >Marine contingent, killing 300 American young men.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > >----
> > >
> > >
> > >>http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17630
> > >>
> > >>By Gustavo Gutierrez
> > >>The origins and myths of Thanksgiving are ironic indeed. Most educated
> > >>Americans are unaware of the following fact: on Nov. 25, 1492, the
Vatican
> > >>declared a "day of thanksgiving" to commemorate not only the fall of
> > >>
> > >Granada
> > >
> > >>by the "infidel" Muslim Moors, but the subsequent expulsion of both
Jews
> > >>
> > >and
> > >
> > >>Muslims alike. After seven centuries of Islamic rule on the Iberian
> > >>Peninsula, the Christian kingdoms of Spain unified under Ferdinand and
> > >>Isabelle began an era that would witness one of the greatest human
rights
> > >>atrocities in the world.
> > >>
> > >>Initially, a "day of thanksgiving" did not commemorate the indigenous
> > >>peoples of Massachusetts and the religious zealots known as the
Pilgrims
> > >>coming together with mutual respect for one another sitting at the
same
> > >>table. This is a cultural myth narrative used to indoctrinate
Americans
> > >>
> > >like
> > >
> > >>myself into believing in a sugar-coated version of American ethnocide
or,
> > >>should I say, holocaust. Furthermore, most people are unaware of this
> > >>
> > >little
> > >
> > >>known fact: Thanksgiving did not become a national holiday until the
> > >>
> > >Lincoln
> > >
> > >>administration in the 1860s.
> > >>
> > >>With this historical knowledge now laid out, let's examine the current
> > >>controversy in the Daily Bruin. Many people are upset that the Daily
Bruin
> > >>would allow the publication of a turkey bearing the words "Free
Palestine"
> > >>in a section of the newspaper not reserved for opinion content.
However,
> > >>
> > >art
> > >
> > >>has always been and will continue to be used as means of political
> > >>statement.
> > >>
> > >>To denigrate art as being mindless, numbing entertainment is a great
> > >>disservice. The "Free Palestine" turkey is a prime example. We are all
> > >>entitled to our own opinions and we should learn to "agree to
disagree."
> > >>
> > >To
> > >
> > >>label sentiments or opinions you may find objectionable, especially
> > >>sentiments speaking out against the actions of the Israeli government
as
> > >>anti-Semitic, is wrong. An anti-Semite is one who holds prejudicial
views
> > >>towards individuals who religiously or culturally are Jewish. The
> > >>anti-Semite will use his or her biases to oppress the Jew. This is not
> > >>always the case for people who support Palestine.
> > >>
> > >>I believe in both a "Free Palestine" and a state of Israel. How can I
> > >>possibly be labeled an anti-Semite? I am opposed to the treatment of
> > >>Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in the hands of the Israeli
> > >>government and their military machine. I am however, not opposed to
the
> > >>existence of Israel or those who practice the tenants of Judaism. This
> > >>distinction needs to be made clear and obvious. Israel can alleviate
the
> > >>problems it faces with its Palestinian neighbors if its political
> > >>
> > >leadership
> > >
> > >>is willing to compromise. The very term "Occupied Territories" infers
that
> > >>Israel infringed on the territorial integrity of Arab nations like
Jordan
> > >>(West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip) since 1967.
> > >>
> > >>The Islamic world must accept the fact that Israel exists, but
Israelis
> > >>
> > >must
> > >
> > >>respect the rights of Palestinians and honor their call for
> > >>self-determination and a chance at creating a viable nation-state.
Both
> > >>sides are not innocent and both have played the role of "villain."
> > >>
> > >>It is imperative that Israel finds a solution to this problem of three
> > >>decades - after all, peace with the Palestinians is one effective way
of
> > >>combating America's war on terrorism.
> > >>
> > >>This applies to the other side of the conflict as well. It is
intolerable
> > >>that a historically persecuted group would perpetuate the same kind of
> > >>persecution that has long been aimed at them. Although the Koran
condemns
> > >>the religious persecution of "peoples of the Book" which would include
> > >>
> > >Jews
> > >
> > >>and Christians alike, we see anti-Semitic attacks aimed at the
remaining
> > >>10,000 Iranians who culturally or religiously adhere to Judaism. The
> > >>
> > >Iranian
> > >
> > >>Jewish community is an ancient one, and it is a tragedy that a nation
> > >>governed supposedly by the tenants of Islam would purge its population
of
> > >>the religious and ethnic diversity that once characterized Iran prior
to
> > >>1979.
> > >>
> > >>The "Free Palestine" turkey is an example of art that provokes
thought. We
> > >>should realize the opinions of one individual student do not
necessarily
> > >>represent the views or opinions of this school publication or the
campus
> > >>
> > >as
> > >
> > >>a whole. We should also realize that no government is more morally
> > >>
> > >righteous
> > >
> > >>than another is. It is about time that we realize that oppression is
> > >>oppression. All governments and all groups of people at one point in
> > >>
> > >history
> > >
> > >>have committed atrocities towards another group. The oppressor isn't
> > >>
> > >always
> > >
> > >>a Protestant, Anglo-American, heterosexual male; the oppressor can be
> > >>anyone, including an Israeli Jew.
> > >>
> > >>If a decade ago we could speak out against legal apartheid in South
> > >>
> > >Africa,
> > >
> > >>what makes Israel any different? If speaking out against Israel is
deemed
> > >>unacceptable, the question becomes why? Is America sensitive to the
fact
> > >>that it initially, knowingly turned a blind eye to the near
annihilation
> > >>
> > >of
> > >
> > >>European Jewry half a century ago? If this is the case, that is an
> > >>unfortunate incident but that does not justify censorship of any kind.
> > >>Sometimes the truth can be a little harsh.
> > >>
> > >>The next time you find the simple phrase "Free Palestine" displayed
> > >>anywhere, keep this in mind. Isn't it problematic that 18 percent of
the
> > >>Israeli population that is Arab is subjugated and relegated to
> > >>
> > >second-class
> > >
> > >>citizenship?
> > >>
> > >>Isn't it problematic that with the formation of a Jewish state,
indigenous
> > >>Palestinians native to the land base were forcibly removed from their
> > >>
> > >homes
> > >
> > >>without proper compensation? Isn't it ironic that Israel wages its war
> > >>against unarmed and poorly equipped Palestinians with American money
and
> > >>American-made military machinery and weapons while the Palestinians
are
> > >>funded by monies from "rogue" states like Iraq and Iran? Remember that
a
> > >>"rogue" state is only labeled a "rogue" state when it openly defies
the
> > >>strategic interests of the U.S.
> > >>
> > >>If the U.S. were deeply concerned with the plight of women in the
> > >>
> > >"volatile"
> > >
> > >>Middle East, wouldn't we also be pointing our "morally righteous"
fingers
> > >>
> > >at
> > >
> > >>the Saudis? After all, one of the most repressive regimes in the
region
> > >>happens to be one of our closest Arab allies. But wait, we are more
> > >>interested in maintaining our assured supply of petroleum reserves
than
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>flourishing of democracy in the "volatile" Middle East.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>"BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > >>
> > >>>"Jim Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > >>>
> > >>news:<Nbpb8.2274$tu6.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > >>
> > >>>>Didn't you know that the USA taxpayers paid millions of their
> > >>>>hard-earned dollars to Israel (after the scud attacks) in order to
> > >>>>
> > >keep
> > >
> > >>>more bullshit
> > >>>Israeli orders keep US jobs and bring profits but the bullshits
> > >>>complain
> > >>>ungrateful scumm bar
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>it out of the Gulf War conflict (such was used in the relocation of
> > >>>>
> > >>Russian
> > >>
> > >>>>Jews to Israel).
> > >>>>
> > >>>the biggest influx of jews from Soviets was in 1991-1992
> > >>>
> > >>In accordance with the deal done between the USA and Israel as
mentioned
> > >>above..
> > >>
> > >>>Morris, shut up
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>If we want to prevent future terrorism in the USA
> > >>>>(which is most likely going to happen yet again tragically but
> > >>>>
> > >hopefully
> > >
> > >>>>not), it is time to cut the three billion dollar annual US taxpayer
> > >>>>dollar support for the brutal apartheid state of Israel
> > >>>>
> > >>>If you want to PROMOTE future terrorism in the USA keep on giving
> > >>>military money to the Arabs
> > >>>====
> > >>>
> > >>>>(read the
> > >>>>opinion piece about Ariel Sharon from the UCLA Daily Bruin newspaper
> > >>>>which is included below):
> > >>>>
> > >>>immature teenage student wannabe diarrhea verbalis happily deleted in
> > >>>the fight for internet pollution prevention
> > >>>;l
> > >>>those students are sure assholes
> > >>>poor America who will rule you?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >"Tull" <jethr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > >news:3c6dd4b6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > >
> > >>On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:34 -0500, Roger Alexander <rla...@kih.net>
> > >>wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Is it just us or is this story in today's Jeruslaem Post racist?
Sounds
> > >>>similar
> > >>>to upity whites objecting to "blacks" or other people of color moving
> > >>>into the
> > >>>neighborhood.
> > >>>
> > >>>Note the stated objections from the Jewish community in responce to
> > >>>Arabs
> > >>>moving into their cozy little "Jewish only" enclave: "....they are
> > >>>unsuitable
> > >>>for living in the community and their social and communal integration
> > >>>will not
> > >>>succeed." Note these "Jewish communites" - more aptly called
colonies -
> > >>>are
> > >>>built on illegally confiscated Palestinian land in the first place.
> > >>>
> > >>>What would be the reaction if Jews were to move into a non-Jewish
> > >>>neighborhood
> > >>>and the people there were to say: "....they are unsuitable for living
in
> > >>>the
> > >>>community and their social and communal integration will not
succeed."
> > >>>It is
> > >>>rather evident this would cause a huge uproar, and rightfully so. So
why
> > >>>is it
> > >>>that when this type of discrimination and bigotry is directed towards
> > >>>Arabs
> > >>>that nothing is ever said? Are Arabs "children of a lesser God" and
thus
> > >>>not
> > >>>entitled to the same human rights and dignity as anyone else?
> > >>>
> > >>>We think it is important that the Jewish communiy examine the racism
in
> > >>>its
> > >>>midst and rectify this problem. If you want something for yourself,
you
> > >>>better
> > >>>want it for your neighbor first.
> > >>>
> > >>>Note, the term "Israeli Arab" is just a term used to lable
Palestinians
> > >>>who
> > >>>have had the so called Israeli citizenship imposed upon them.
> > >>>
> > >>>Read on........
> > >>>---------------
> > >>>
> > >>>Israeli Arab family rejected by Jewish neighborhood
> > >>>
> > >>>By Dan Izenberg
> > >>>
> >
>>>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.43388.html
> > >>>
> > >>>An Israeli Arab family's bid to build a home in the exclusively
Jewish
> > >>>neighborhood of Katzir is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Jewish
> > >>>settlement
> > >>>movement in Israel from within, the head of the Katzir-Harish local
> > >>>council,
> > >>>Dubi Sandrov said today.
> > >>>
> > >>>Sandrov said he "wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the
leaders
> > >>>of the
> > >>>Palestinian Authority" are behind the request of Adel and Iman
Ka'adan
> > >>>for a
> > >>>plot of land to build their home in Katzir. "Iranian or Saudi money
is
> > >>>likely
> > >>>funding the entire campaign," he added.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Ka'adans submitted a request to build a home in Katzir on
> > >>>state-owned land
> > >>>which the Israel Lands Authority gave to the Katzir Cooperative
Society
> > >>>via the
> > >>>Jewish Agency. The society's membership committee rejected the
request
> > >>>of the
> > >>>Ka'adan family, from nearby Baka el-Gharbiya, for a plot of land.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Ka'adans, sponsored by the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel,
> > >>>petitioned the High Court of Justice, which ruled last year that
Katzir
> > >>>could
> > >>>not reject the Ka'adans on religious or ethnic grounds.
> > >>>
> > >>>Following the ruling, the membership committee heard and rejected the
> > >>>Ka'adans'
> > >>>request for a second time on the grounds that "they are unsuitable
for
> > >>>living
> > >>>in the community and their social and communal integration will not
> > >>>succeed."
> > >>>
> > >>>===============================================
> > >>>The Kaadan's were the family who got a ruling from the Israeli High
> > >>>Court
> > >>>that they could petition the Jewish town set up near Nazareth to
> > >>>buy a plot there because the discrimination against them in their
Arab
> > >>>town
> > >>>limited their education and other opportunities.
> > >>>This latest decision is arrant racism, which we have come to expect
from
> > >>>Israelis
> > >>>but it is still nauseous. Jews in the US have forcefully made
Americans
> > >>>
> > >>>stop such discrimination, which is entirely right, but for Jews in
> > >>>Israel
> > >>>to practice such open discrimination is worse than nauseous. It
stands
> > >>>for
> > >>>the proposition that every country but that of the Jews should
practice
> > >>>antidiscrimination, while the Jews have the right to be racist as all
> > >>>Hell.
> > >>>For shame.
> > >>>RLA
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> Same as the old days is South Africa. Whites only suburbs. Blacks
> > >>only allowed in as shit workers.
> > >>Tull

"BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> "Eddie" <ed...@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:<62nb8.11029$Nv5.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> > No the palestinians are not supposed to pay for what happened to Jews
during
> > WWII in Europe.
> > Incase you didn't know David, Jews have a real history in Israel that
> > predates the creation of Islam.
>
> > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c6d57eb...@news.rcn.com...
> > > And according to you Zionist wackos, the Palestinians are supposed to
> > > pay for what happened to Jews during WWII in Europe, right???
>
> da...@erols.com (David Goldman) wrote in message
news:<3c5450b3...@news.rcn.com>...
> > Jawohl!! Mussen Sie Lebensraum machen fur der Zionistischen Reich!
> > Sieg Heil, der Fuhrer Sharon mit seinem SS Fuhrer PereSS! Machen Sie
> > Palestina Arabrein!
>
> dunno if anyone else except Goldman and his Arab journalists which
> publish praises to Hitler enjoy these das reich hysterical shouts and
> hysterical weirdo comparisons
> if he thinks it's an argument then he insults all--jews, religious and
> non-religious, zionists and non-zionists and non-jews and shames
> himself if he IS or ISN'T a jew
> Hitler made no distinctions about jews and their allegiances..
> it's becoming pathological of Goldman
> sometimes in all seriousness I think if he tries an SS uniform on..
>


"PNEWS.ORG" <ch...@fdn.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.020217...@shell.fdn.com...
> Jim: Any cost to U.S. taxpayers is more than compensated for by the money
> which Israel pumps back into the U.S. economy with purchases, which exceed
> the amount received. It is essentially a subsidy to U.S. business. Now we
> may not always like those businesses, but that is the real issue, not what
> Israel gets and gives back - besides intangibles, like a really "secure"
> presence for the U.S. military if ever needed (included those there now).
> Israel is a partner. When I was sent over for one of the wars there, the
> U.S. was there in Israel.
>
> Instead of repeating old false cliches about Sharon, better for you to
> understand the nature of Israel's vibrant democracy and how Arafat was
> responsible for getting Sharon elected and how today in Israel most of the
> so-called "peace camp" are now "Second Thoughters" about where they stand
> and many of them voted for Sharon, thanks to Arafat and the PLO.
>
> Rather than blame Israel, which is false, for Terrorism, put the blame
> where it belongs on militant Islamists and the nature of a very militant
> and aggressive religion.
>
>
> TheGolem
> http://pnews.org/
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Jim Morris wrote:
>
> > Why doesn't Israel follow the Mitchell Plan which called for an end to
the
> > Israeli settlements in the occupied territories? Because the Israeli
> > government wants to KEEP those illegal settlements...
> >
> > Israel is an apartheid state with a war criminal (in Ariel Sharon) as
its
> > leader, and the USA hypocritically supports such (when Sharon is still
> > wanted for his "Butcher of Lebanon" war crimes in Belgium). The USA made
> > sure that Milosevic rightfully gets tried (at the The Hague) as the war
> > criminal that he is. Yet, President Bush uses a convenient double
standard
> > to "look the other way" with Sharon... No wonder the Arab world hates
the
> > USA and has marked us as a target for terrorism. Check out the opinion
piece
> > (included below) about the war crimes that Sharon is wanted for in
> > Belgium...
> >
> > The three billion USA taxpayer dollar support that is given annually to
> > Israel would be better spent at home in the USA. Instead, such
multi-billion
> > dollar support to Israel has contributed to terrorism within our borders
> > such as what happened with the World Trade Center disaster. As a result,
we
> > have also had our civil rights diminished (such as with the Patriot Act
> > passed in Congress after the World Trade Center bombing) and increased
> > security (at airports and similar) which has been an inconvenience as
> > well... The USA support of Israel is NOT worth the cost, and now
pro-Israel
> > (Jewish) people (in the State and Defense Departments as well as in the
US
> > Congress) are in a blatant conflict of interest (from my objective and
> > unbiased perspective) by pushing for the USA to attack Iraq (and
possibly
> > Iran as well) for the benefit of Israel.. Those same people support (and
> > vote in the US Congress) to keep the billions of dollars of USA taxpayer
> > dollar aid going for Israel each year. If such isn't a blatant conflict
of
> > interest, then what is it?! When the communication director (for US
> > Congresswoman McKinley) brought such up recently (about Israel's
occupation
> > of the US Congress as to include members of the foreign relations
> > committees), he was asked to resign.. Again, I ask the American people:
> > Should one percent of the population have so much control of the USA
> > government (and the resulting US Policy which is flawed because of such
a
> > blatant conflict of interest)?! I think not. Heck, if we had
German-American
> > members of the US Congress voting in favor of the Nazis in World War 2
(or
> > before) and getting them US taxpayer dollars as well, would we have
> > tolerated such? I would hope not...
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net>
> > Newsgroups:
> >
talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,
> > soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 2:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> >
> >
> > > Listen to the spin from this guy as it is a known fact that Isael
> > basically
> > > "blackmailed" the USA (taxpayers) into paying millions to settle more
> > > Russian Jews into Israel in return for Israel not to attack Iraq after
the
> > > Scuds hit (as Israel attacking Iraq then would have broken up the
> > > international coalition). Such was even more blown money that the USA
had
> > to
> > > pay the apartheid state of Israel because of the pro-Israeli lobby in
the
> > > USA.
> > >
> > > Also, how many US Congressmen (including US senators are pro-Israel
> > because
> > > they are Jewish and vote in favor of ongoing support of Israel which
is a
> > > blatant conflict of interest as Jewish people compose about 1 percent
of
> > the
> > > US population yet they compose about 50 percent of the US Congress).
How
> > so
> > > as there seems to be some kind of agenda there? Also, Israel is trying
to
> > > get the USA to attack Iraq for Israel's benefit... Cut the billions of
> > > dollars of annual USA taxpayer aid to Israel, and we will most likely
see
> > > our terrorism problem evaporate... The USA has no business taking
sides in
> > a
> > > "holy war" (just because of a strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA)
which
> > is
> > > contributing to further terrorism within our borders that we don't
need as
> > > such is obviously unacceptable as well.
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: der...@alhayat.com
> > > Cc: ra...@alhayat.com ; ledi...@alhayat.com ; ma...@alhayat.com ;
> > > mus...@alhayat.com ; zou...@alhayat.com ; iska...@alhayat.com ;
> > > bcha...@alhayat.com ; ba...@alhayat.com ; gcha...@alhayat.com ;
> > > geo...@alhayat.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:24 AM
> > > Subject: Fw: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Ms. Dergham,
> > >
> > > You were absolutely accurate with what you said on the ABC Nightline
> > > television news program (in the USA) last night with regard to the
double
> > > standard of Israel having nuclear weapons. Also, your comments on an
> > earlier
> > > Nightline were excellent as well (with regard to the biased pro-Israel
> > > policy by the USA that contributed to the World Trade Center
disaster). I
> > > think you might find the following to be of interest (to include the
> > opinion
> > > pieces below which appeared in the UCLA Daily Bruin university
newspaper).
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ---- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: onthe...@foxnews.com
> > > greta.va...@foxnews.com
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:13 PM
> > > Subject: Double Standard with Ariel Sharon?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Greta,
> > >
> > > How about Ariel Sharon and what he did with the massacre at the
> > Palestinian
> > > refugee camps in Lebanon (as mentioned in the opinion piece included
> > below).
> > > Why such a double standard? Especially when Sharon is wanted for such
war
> > > crimes in Belgium, and you don't even cover it.. Nor do any of the
other
> > USA
> > > networks from what I have seen thus far...
> > >
> > > With kindest regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: tony...@foxnews.com
> > > Cc: Congressman McKeon ; in...@kyl.senate.gov ;
sen...@kennedy.senate.gov
> > ;
> > > sen...@akaka.senate.gov ; senato...@byrd.senate.gov ;
> > > senator_...@domenici.senate.gov ; sen...@dorgan.senate.gov ;
> > > di...@durbin.senate.gov ; senato...@leahy.senate.gov ;
> > > blanche...@lincoln.senate.gov ; senat...@lott.senate.gov ;
> > > senato...@lugar.senate.gov ; john_...@mccain.senate.gov ;
> > > sen...@mcconnell.senate.gov ; comm...@foxnews.com ;
com...@foxnews.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:12 AM
> > >
> > > Subject: Many Americans Not in Support of What was Just Mentioned on
the
> > Fox
> > > News Channel
> > >
> > >
> > > With regard to Senator Kyl's comments just now with Tony Snow on the
Fox
> > > News Channel (about our ongoing support for the Israeli Army's
continued
> > > brutalization of the Palestinian people which has tragically
contributed
> > to
> > > terrorism being experienced within the USA which is absolutely
> > > unacceptable), many Americans such as myself want the US Government to
cut
> > > or substantially reduce the three billion dollar annual support to
Israel
> > as
> > > our terrorism problem would most likely soon evaporate thereafter.
Europe
> > is
> > > not alone in its condemnation of the apartheid policy that Israel has
> > > against the Palestian people.
> > >
> > > Please review the recent opinion pieces (which appeared in the UCLA
Daily
> > > Bruin newspaper) and the radio interview of Robert Fisk (who is based
in
> > > Beirut and covers the Middle East for the UK Independent newspaper)
which
> > > are both included below. In closing, the USA has no business taking
sides
> > in
> > > a "holy war" as such has been taking place for years because of the
strong
> > > pro-Israel lobby in our country.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: mma...@hotmail.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:11 PM
> > > Subject: Your Opinion Piece (about Sharon) in the UCLA Daily Bruin was
> > > Excellent...
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Ali,
> > >
> > > As I am not Jewish (Israeli) nor Palestian, I think you will find the
> > > following to be of interest (especially the mention of Robert Fisk who
is
> > a
> > > reporter based in Beirut who covers the Middle East for the
Independent
> > > newspaper in the UK as his perspective on the Middle East is excellent
and
> > > can be listened to as well via the Web site provided below). Your
opinion
> > > piece about the brutal nature of Ariel Sharon (which is included
below)
> > from
> > > the UCLA Daily Bruin was excellent. You might want to check out the
> > > following Web sites as well:
> > >
> > > http://www.bitterlemons.org
> > >
> > > http://www.memri.org
> > >
> > > http://www.debka.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: pressin...@rezapahlavi.org
> > > Cc: rp...@postmark.net
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:58 PM
> > > Subject: Fox News Channel
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Pahlavi,
> > >
> > > I saw your interview moments ago on the Fox News Channel and just
checked
> > > out your interesting Web site (http://www.rezapahlavi.org). Sean
Hannity
> > is
> > > very pro-Israel and apparently wants America to attack Iran in an
attempt
> > to
> > > neutralize Iran for Israel's benefit. I (and many other Americans)
have no
> > > interest in continuing to support Israel as such multi-billion annual
> > > support (by the USA) contributed to the tragic terrorism with the
World
> > > Trade Center disaster. Please read the following at your convenience
as I
> > > think you will find it to be interesting (especially the mention of
Robert
> > > Fisk who covers the Middle East for the Independent Newspaper in the
UK as
> > > Mr. Fisk's perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict is excellent).
If
> > > interested further, you can access a recent radio NPR interview with
Mr.
> > > Fisk by following the instructions which are included below as well.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:11 PM
> > > Subject: Region in Conflict (Rebellion in the Israeli Army about
Serving
> > in
> > > the Occupied Terrorities)
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Ms. Schaefer,
> > >
> > > As you are the senior producer of "Region in Conflict", I thought that
you
> > > might find this email to be of interest (could you forward such to
> > > Ms.Banfield if possible). Ashleigh Banfield (and "Region in Conflict")
has
> > > been excellent. Are you going to cover the following (which is what
BBC
> > had
> > > as part of their "World News" coverage in the USA yesterday on PBS)
about
> > > the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about reservists not wanting to
serve
> > in
> > > the territories)?:
> > >
> >
> >
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/1795362.st
> > m
> >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: craig...@nbc.com
> > > Cc: ashleigh...@msnbc.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:23 PM
> > > Subject: Fw: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the
USA
> > > Earlier Today
> > > Even though she seems to be pro-Israel, Ashleigh has still been fair
thus
> > > far in reporting both sides in the Arab v. Israeli conflict as I look
> > > forward to seeing her additional shows... However, it would have been
very
> > > informative if she could have interviewed Robert Fisk who is a
reporter
> > > based in Beirut and covers the Middle East for the Independent
newspaper
> > > (http://www.independent.co.uk) in the UK as he was recently
interviewed
> > (on
> > > January 25th, 2002) for the "To the Point" program on National Public
> > Radio
> > > (NPR) as his perspective on the Arab v. Israeli conflict was
excellent.
> > >
> > > If interested, Ashleigh (and/or her producers) could listen to Mr.
Fisk's
> > > interview from that "To the Point" program by accessing
> > http://www.kcrw.org
> > > and clicking on "To the Point" and then clicking on the January 25th,
2002
> > > broadcast (Real Player 7 which can be downloaded for free from
> > > http://www.real.com is needed in order to listen to Mr. Fisk's
interview).
> > > Also, some of Mr. Fisk's recent articles are included below. So is
> > Ashleigh
> > > going to cover the rebellion in the Israeli Army (about not wanting to
> > serve
> > > in the occupied terroritories) that aired on BBC World News this
evening
> > > (Friday, February 1st, 2002) as the following article is about such?:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >
> > > There is also an excellent opinion piece (included below) which
mentioned
> > > how Ariel Sharon is the problem (especially with how he is wanted as a
war
> > > criminal in Belgium for his involvement in allowing the Palestinians
to be
> > > slaughtered at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon).
> > >
> > > If peace is not reached ASAP between the Israelis and the
Palestinians,
> > the
> > > USA is most likely (and unfortunately) going to experience even more
> > tragic
> > > terrorism as continuing to support Israel (with three billion dollars
a
> > > year) is not worth the cost. American bombs and similar fall on the
> > > Palestinians, and the Arab world (to include Bin Laden) knows it. Why
> > > doesn't Congress use the "power of the purse" to cut aid to Israel in
> > order
> > > to force it to adopt the Mitchell Plan which calls for an end to the
> > > settlements in the occupied terrorities.
> > >
> > > With kind regards,
> > >
> > > Jim Morris
> > >
> > > Forwarded:
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:56 PM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk is Excellent with his coverage for the
Independent...
> > >
> > >
> > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=117594
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=117593
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116255
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116256
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116073
> > >
> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116349
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:03 AM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > >
> > > Check out what Robert Fisk has to say about the Middle East as he
reflects
> > > my position as well (you can hear his interview by accessing
www.kcrw.org
> > > and click on "To the Point" and access the January 25th, 2002 program
as
> > > Robert Fisk is a reporter for the Independent newspaper in the UK. You
can
> > > listen to his recent interview from January 25th, 2002 on "To the
Point"
> > by
> > > accessing http://www.moretothepoint.com as well...
> > >
> > > Check out the line-up at the following Web site for that KCRW FM 89.9
> > radio
> > > station in Los Angeles:
> > >
> > > http://www.kcrw.org
> > >
> > > http://moretothepoint.com
> > >
> > > Click on January 25th....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: James Morris
> > > To: newse...@independent.co.uk
> > > Cc: rober...@independent.co.uk
> > > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:57 PM
> > > Subject: Robert Fisk was Excellent on National Public Radio in the USA
> > > Earlier Today
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mr. Fisk,
> > >
> > > I am emailing you to let you know that you were absolutely excellent
in
> > > presenting your points during the Middle East segment with the "To the
> > > Point" radio program via NPI earlier today in the United States. I
> > > completely agree with you about the Arab v. Israeli situation and
> > America's
> > > bias with such. I just wish more radio and television programs would
have
> > > you on as a guest here in the USA. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby
(along
> > > with many pro-Israel Jewish supporters in the US Congress-which is a
> > > conflict of interest from my perspective especially when they sit on
> > foreign
> > > relations committees and make policy decisions concerning America's
> > ongoing
> > > support for Israel) influences the US government to provide three
billion
> > > dollars a year in order to facilitate Israel's ongoing brutalization
of
> > the
> > > Palestinian people (which has contributed to tragic terrorism such as
the
> > > World Trade Center disaster). If America doesn't address such ASAP,
one
> > can
> > > only expect further terrorism which is unacceptable.
> > >
> > > With kindest regards,
> > >
> > > James Morris
> > > Los Angeles
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17769
> > >
> > > By Mujtaba Ali
> > > In their submission "Palestinian leader fosters global terrorism"
(Daily
> > > Bruin, Viewpoint, Dec. 6, 2001), Benjamin Nabati and Jacob Zakaria
suggest
> > > that the leadership of Yasser Arafat is the only obstacle impeding
hopes
> > of
> > > peace in the Middle East.
> > >
> > > What they fail to acknowledge, however, is the sadistic nature of and
> > > history of atrocities committed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon.
> > The
> > > writers state, "If (Arafat) had delivered, the attacks of the intifada
of
> > > the past 15 months would not have occurred." What the writers do not
> > mention
> > > is that Sharon himself provoked the recent onset of violence when he
and
> > an
> > > armed entourage visited a site holy to both Arabs and Israelis last
> > > September.
> > >
> > > Over the years, Sharon has acquired an infamous reputation as a
violent
> > man
> > > who feels the military is the only solution to political issues.
Sharon,
> > > with his involvement in the Israeli Defense Force, has been practicing
> > > state-sponsored terrorism for the past 50 years.
> > >
> > > In the summer of 1953, Sharon built the notorious IDF terrorist group,
> > known
> > > as Unit 101, whose main purpose was to conduct "retaliatory strikes"
> > against
> > > the neighboring Arab states. Unit 101 was generally independent from
the
> > > regular IDF forces and was responsible for many atrocities, including
the
> > > massacres of civilians and the destruction of villages in the
Jordanian
> > West
> > > Bank. Most notorious was the raid and destruction of the Qibya village
on
> > > Oct. 14, 1953 in which 40 homes occupied by Arab families were blown
up
> > > without warning. More than 50 innocent men, women and children lost
their
> > > lives.
> > >
> > > In the 1956 Suez War in Egypt, Sharon employed ruthless tactics and
was
> > > charged with committing war crimes in his execution of Egyptian POWs.
His
> > > actions led IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan to force Sharon's
withdrawal
> > from
> > > Egypt.
> > >
> > > Sharon was recalled to military service in the October 1973 War, where
he
> > > led several operations. During the Great Bitter Lake Battle, which led
to
> > > the crossing of the Suez Canal towards mainland Egypt, Sharon again
> > > committed war crimes against Egyptians, and once again clashed with
the
> > > chief of staff and defense minister, resulting in his dismissal from
the
> > > IDF.
> > >
> > > Upon being appointed Israeli Defense Minister in 1981, Sharon was held
> > > responsible for his involvement in the infamous massacre at the Sabra
and
> > > Shatilla refugee camps in southern Lebanon on Sept. 16, 1982. Sharon
and
> > > then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin called for the murderous
> > rampage
> > > of innocent, unarmed Palestinian refugees - mostly women, children and
the
> > > elderly.
> > >
> > > Western journalists who reported the incident described in horrifying
> > detail
> > > the piles of dead men, raped and mutilated women, and murdered
children.
> > The
> > > International Committee of the Red Cross reported 2,400 fatalities in
the
> > > massacre. This figure was a modest estimate of the true number of
lives
> > > lost, since many of the victims were buried in mass graves dug by the
> > > Israeli army and its ally, a Lebanese-Christian militia.
> > >
> > > On Dec. 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the
> > massacre
> > > and declared it to be an act of genocide. The rape of Sabra and
Shatilla
> > > earned Sharon the condemnation of the world as well as denunciation by
the
> > > Israeli parliament, the Knesset. He was forced to resign as Defense
> > Minister
> > > in 1983.
> > >
> > > The number of times Israel has been condemned by the United Nations
should
> > > serve as an indication of the type of belligerent activity it carries
out.
> > > Many of the U.N. resolutions against Israel were passed unanimously -
the
> > > United States, Israel's longtime ally, was among the few countries
> > opposing
> > > the resolutions.
> > >
> > > Nabati and Zakaria state: "Israelis do not intentionally go after
> > > Palestinian civilians. The Israeli Defense Force gives more than 48
hours
> > of
> > > warning time before a building verified as housing terrorist functions
is
> > > destroyed, to clear away."
> > >
> > > This statement does not explain the death of 11-year-old Khalil
> > al-Mughrabi
> > > who was playing soccer with a group of children on July 7, 2001, when
a
> > > burst of gunfire hit him in the head, killing him and wounding two of
his
> > > friends, ages 10 and 12.
> > >
> > > The IDF terrorist who committed this murder was vindicated by the
Israeli
> > > Military Advocate General's office as having "acted with restraint and
> > > control" in an attempt to disperse nearby protesters by "firing live
> > gunfire
> > > into an open area distant from the rioters." Those bullets fired by
the
> > > soldier somehow found their way to a playground and into an innocent
boy's
> > > head. This is not an isolated incident. It is among the hundreds of
> > > terrorist acts committed by the IDF on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > The aforementioned quote neither explains the numbers of fatalities
since
> > > the start of the present conflict, statistics which speak for
themselves.
> > Of
> > > the approximately 961 people who have died in the past 15 months, 739
have
> > > been Palestinian; 152 of whom were under the age of 18.
> > >
> > > So, after this dose of easily verifiable evidence, employ some
rational
> > > thought and decide who the aggressor in this conflict really is:
Sharon -
> > a
> > > sadistic butcher, currently on trial in Belgium for war crimes,
condemned
> > by
> > > the international community as well as the Israeli people; or Arafat,
who
> > > had arrested 180 people in the week following the Jerusalem suicide
> > bombing
> > > in December, and who (along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin) won
the
> > > Nobel Peace Prize in 1994?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Looking for the truth
> > Newsgroups:
> >
talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,
> > soc.culture.british,soc.culture.egyptian,alt.politics
> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 2:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers
> >
> >
> > this is how USA get repaid by its "frieds"
> >
> > Zionist Terror Against the United States
> >
> > Americans have also suffered from Zionist terror. In fact, Israel has
> > committed a number of acts of war against the United States.
> >
> > Israel has a long record of terrorism against the United States going
all
> > the way back to 1954. In that year, the Israel government plotted to
blow up
> > American installations in Cairo and Alexandria and blame it on Egyptian
> > nationals. By chance the plot failed and was uncovered. It was named the
> > Lavon Affair after the man who supposedly set up the terrorism, Pinhas
> > Lavon, the Israeli Defense Chief. He resigned in 1955 over the incident.
7
> >
> > In 1967, Israel purposefully attacked with unmarked jet fighters and
torpedo
> > boats, the U.S.S. Liberty, an American Navy vessel of the Sinai
Peninsula,
> > even machine gunning the deployed life rafts of the ship. The attack
killed
> > 31 American servicemen and wounded over 170. 8 They sought to sink the
ship,
> > kill all the Americans and blame it on the Egyptians so they could have
> > American support to conquer larger areas of the Arab world.
> >
> > The attack on the Liberty was nothing short of a vicious act of war
against
> > the United States by Israel. In spite of the fact that U.S. Secretary of
> > State Dean Rusk and navy chief Admiral Moorer said that the attack on
the
> > USS Liberty by Israel was deliberate, the all-powerful Zionist Lobby
> > prevented a formal Congressional investigation. If the Lobby can even
cover
> > up horrendous Israeli crimes against America, it's no wonder they can
cover
> > up Israel's endless crimes against the Palestinians. Yet, after the
Liberty
> > attack America didn't even reduce our billions of dollars of aid, in
fact
> > the story quickly vanished from the news after a few short days.
> >
> > In 1986 Israel actually caused us to wrongly go to war and militarily
attack
> > another nation. The Mossad planted a transmitter in Tripoli, Libya and
then
> > broadcast terrorist messages in Libyan code indicating Libyan
responsibility
> > for killing two Americans in the bombing of the La Belle discothèque in
> > Germany. 9 (It was later proven that Libya had nothing to do with the
> > bombing) By use of this fraud, Israel induced the American bombing of
Libya.
> > American bombs wrecked havoc there. One of those killed was the infant
> > daughter of the Libyan President. It is certainly a dastardly act of war
> > against a nation to induce it into wrongly attacking another nation.
Only a
> > truly evil enemy of America would do such a thing.
> >
> > Every Palestinian and Arab is aware that Israel's half century of terror
> > could never have occurred without the active financial, military, and
> > diplomatic support of the United States. They know that the Jewish Lobby
has
> > control of American Mideast Policy and the Zionists can get whatever
they
> > want from Congress on issues important to them.
> >
> > It was American support of Israel's brutal invasion and occupation of
> > Lebanon in the 1980s that led directly to the bombing of the U.S.
> >
> > Marine contingent, killing 300 American young men.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > ----
> >
> >
> > > http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17630
> > >
> > > By Gustavo Gutierrez
> > > The origins and myths of Thanksgiving are ironic indeed. Most educated
> > > Americans are unaware of the following fact: on Nov. 25, 1492, the
Vatican
> > > declared a "day of thanksgiving" to commemorate not only the fall of
> > Granada
> > > by the "infidel" Muslim Moors, but the subsequent expulsion of both
Jews
> > and
> > > Muslims alike. After seven centuries of Islamic rule on the Iberian
> > > Peninsula, the Christian kingdoms of Spain unified under Ferdinand and
> > > Isabelle began an era that would witness one of the greatest human
rights
> > > atrocities in the world.
> > >
> > > Initially, a "day of thanksgiving" did not commemorate the indigenous
> > > peoples of Massachusetts and the religious zealots known as the
Pilgrims
> > > coming together with mutual respect for one another sitting at the
same
> > > table. This is a cultural myth narrative used to indoctrinate
Americans
> > like
> > > myself into believing in a sugar-coated version of American ethnocide
or,
> > > should I say, holocaust. Furthermore, most people are unaware of this
> > little
> > > known fact: Thanksgiving did not become a national holiday until the
> > Lincoln
> > > administration in the 1860s.
> > >
> > > With this historical knowledge now laid out, let's examine the current
> > > controversy in the Daily Bruin. Many people are upset that the Daily
Bruin
> > > would allow the publication of a turkey bearing the words "Free
Palestine"
> > > in a section of the newspaper not reserved for opinion content.
However,
> > art
> > > has always been and will continue to be used as means of political
> > > statement.
> > >
> > > To denigrate art as being mindless, numbing entertainment is a great
> > > disservice. The "Free Palestine" turkey is a prime example. We are all
> > > entitled to our own opinions and we should learn to "agree to
disagree."
> > To
> > > label sentiments or opinions you may find objectionable, especially
> > > sentiments speaking out against the actions of the Israeli government
as
> > > anti-Semitic, is wrong. An anti-Semite is one who holds prejudicial
views
> > > towards individuals who religiously or culturally are Jewish. The
> > > anti-Semite will use his or her biases to oppress the Jew. This is not
> > > always the case for people who support Palestine.
> > >
> > > I believe in both a "Free Palestine" and a state of Israel. How can I
> > > possibly be labeled an anti-Semite? I am opposed to the treatment of
> > > Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in the hands of the Israeli
> > > government and their military machine. I am however, not opposed to
the
> > > existence of Israel or those who practice the tenants of Judaism. This
> > > distinction needs to be made clear and obvious. Israel can alleviate
the
> > > problems it faces with its Palestinian neighbors if its political
> > leadership
> > > is willing to compromise. The very term "Occupied Territories" infers
that
> > > Israel infringed on the territorial integrity of Arab nations like
Jordan
> > > (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip) since 1967.
> > >
> > > The Islamic world must accept the fact that Israel exists, but
Israelis
> > must
> > > respect the rights of Palestinians and honor their call for
> > > self-determination and a chance at creating a viable nation-state.
Both
> > > sides are not innocent and both have played the role of "villain."
> > >
> > > It is imperative that Israel finds a solution to this problem of three
> > > decades - after all, peace with the Palestinians is one effective way
of
> > > combating America's war on terrorism.
> > >
> > > This applies to the other side of the conflict as well. It is
intolerable
> > > that a historically persecuted group would perpetuate the same kind of
> > > persecution that has long been aimed at them. Although the Koran
condemns
> > > the religious persecution of "peoples of the Book" which would include
> > Jews
> > > and Christians alike, we see anti-Semitic attacks aimed at the
remaining
> > > 10,000 Iranians who culturally or religiously adhere to Judaism. The
> > Iranian
> > > Jewish community is an ancient one, and it is a tragedy that a nation
> > > governed supposedly by the tenants of Islam would purge its population
of
> > > the religious and ethnic diversity that once characterized Iran prior
to
> > > 1979.
> > >
> > > The "Free Palestine" turkey is an example of art that provokes
thought. We
> > > should realize the opinions of one individual student do not
necessarily
> > > represent the views or opinions of this school publication or the
campus
> > as
> > > a whole. We should also realize that no government is more morally
> > righteous
> > > than another is. It is about time that we realize that oppression is
> > > oppression. All governments and all groups of people at one point in
> > history
> > > have committed atrocities towards another group. The oppressor isn't
> > always
> > > a Protestant, Anglo-American, heterosexual male; the oppressor can be
> > > anyone, including an Israeli Jew.
> > >
> > > If a decade ago we could speak out against legal apartheid in South
> > Africa,
> > > what makes Israel any different? If speaking out against Israel is
deemed
> > > unacceptable, the question becomes why? Is America sensitive to the
fact
> > > that it initially, knowingly turned a blind eye to the near
annihilation
> > of
> > > European Jewry half a century ago? If this is the case, that is an
> > > unfortunate incident but that does not justify censorship of any kind.
> > > Sometimes the truth can be a little harsh.
> > >
> > > The next time you find the simple phrase "Free Palestine" displayed
> > > anywhere, keep this in mind. Isn't it problematic that 18 percent of
the
> > > Israeli population that is Arab is subjugated and relegated to
> > second-class
> > > citizenship?
> > >
> > > Isn't it problematic that with the formation of a Jewish state,
indigenous
> > > Palestinians native to the land base were forcibly removed from their
> > homes
> > > without proper compensation? Isn't it ironic that Israel wages its war
> > > against unarmed and poorly equipped Palestinians with American money
and
> > > American-made military machinery and weapons while the Palestinians
are
> > > funded by monies from "rogue" states like Iraq and Iran? Remember that
a
> > > "rogue" state is only labeled a "rogue" state when it openly defies
the
> > > strategic interests of the U.S.
> > >
> > > If the U.S. were deeply concerned with the plight of women in the
> > "volatile"
> > > Middle East, wouldn't we also be pointing our "morally righteous"
fingers
> > at
> > > the Saudis? After all, one of the most repressive regimes in the
region
> > > happens to be one of our closest Arab allies. But wait, we are more
> > > interested in maintaining our assured supply of petroleum reserves
than
> > the
> > > flourishing of democracy in the "volatile" Middle East.
> > >
> > >
> > > "BTov" <dkas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bd24d00f.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > > "Jim Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:<Nbpb8.2274$tu6.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > > >
> > > > > Didn't you know that the USA taxpayers paid millions of their
> > > > > hard-earned dollars to Israel (after the scud attacks) in order to
> > keep
> > > >
> > > > more bullshit
> > > > Israeli orders keep US jobs and bring profits but the bullshits
> > > > complain
> > > > ungrateful scumm bar
> > > > ====
> > > > > it out of the Gulf War conflict (such was used in the relocation
of
> > > Russian
> > > > > Jews to Israel).
> > > >
> > > > the biggest influx of jews from Soviets was in 1991-1992
> > >
> > > In accordance with the deal done between the USA and Israel as
mentioned
> > > above..
> > >
> > > > Morris, shut up
> > > > ====
> > > > > If we want to prevent future terrorism in the USA
> > > > > (which is most likely going to happen yet again tragically but
> > hopefully
> > > > > not), it is time to cut the three billion dollar annual US
taxpayer
> > > > > dollar support for the brutal apartheid state of Israel
> > > >
> > > > If you want to PROMOTE future terrorism in the USA keep on giving
> > > > military money to the Arabs
> > > > ====
> > > > > (read the
> > > > > opinion piece about Ariel Sharon from the UCLA Daily Bruin
newspaper
> > > > > which is included below):
> > > >
> > > > immature teenage student wannabe diarrhea verbalis happily deleted
in
> > > > the fight for internet pollution prevention
> > > > ;l
> > > > those students are sure assholes
> > > > poor America who will rule you?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > "Tull" <jethr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3c6dd4b6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:48:34 -0500, Roger Alexander <rla...@kih.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Is it just us or is this story in today's Jeruslaem Post racist?
Sounds
> > > >similar
> > > >to upity whites objecting to "blacks" or other people of color moving
> > > >into the
> > > >neighborhood.
> > > >
> > > >Note the stated objections from the Jewish community in responce to
> > > >Arabs
> > > >moving into their cozy little "Jewish only" enclave: "....they are
> > > >unsuitable
> > > >for living in the community and their social and communal integration
> > > >will not
> > > >succeed." Note these "Jewish communites" - more aptly called
colonies -
> > > >are
> > > >built on illegally confiscated Palestinian land in the first place.
> > > >
> > > >What would be the reaction if Jews were to move into a non-Jewish
> > > >neighborhood
> > > >and the people there were to say: "....they are unsuitable for living
in
> > > >the
> > > >community and their social and communal integration will not
succeed."
> > > >It is
> > > >rather evident this would cause a huge uproar, and rightfully so. So
why
> > > >is it
> > > >that when this type of discrimination and bigotry is directed towards
> > > >Arabs
> > > >that nothing is ever said? Are Arabs "children of a lesser God" and
thus
> > > >not
> > > >entitled to the same human rights and dignity as anyone else?
> > > >
> > > >We think it is important that the Jewish communiy examine the racism
in
> > > >its
> > > >midst and rectify this problem. If you want something for yourself,
you
> > > >better
> > > >want it for your neighbor first.
> > > >
> > > >Note, the term "Israeli Arab" is just a term used to lable
Palestinians
> > > >who
> > > >have had the so called Israeli citizenship imposed upon them.
> > > >
> > > >Read on........
> > > >---------------
> > > >
> > > >Israeli Arab family rejected by Jewish neighborhood
> > > >
> > > >By Dan Izenberg
> > > >
> > >
>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.43388.html
> > > >
> > > >An Israeli Arab family's bid to build a home in the exclusively
Jewish
> > > >neighborhood of Katzir is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Jewish
> > > >settlement
> > > >movement in Israel from within, the head of the Katzir-Harish local
> > > >council,
> > > >Dubi Sandrov said today.
> > > >
> > > >Sandrov said he "wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the
leaders
> > > >of the
> > > >Palestinian Authority" are behind the request of Adel and Iman
Ka'adan
> > > >for a
> > > >plot of land to build their home in Katzir. "Iranian or Saudi money
is
> > > >likely
> > > >funding the entire campaign," he added.
> > > >
> > > >The Ka'adans submitted a request to build a home in Katzir on
> > > >state-owned land
> > > >which the Israel Lands Authority gave to the Katzir Cooperative
Society
> > > >via the
> > > >Jewish Agency. The society's membership committee rejected the
request
> > > >of the
> > > >Ka'adan family, from nearby Baka el-Gharbiya, for a plot of land.
> > > >
> > > >The Ka'adans, sponsored by the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel,
> > > >petitioned the High Court of Justice, which ruled last year that
Katzir
> > > >could
> > > >not reject the Ka'adans on religious or ethnic grounds.
> > > >
> > > >Following the ruling, the membership committee heard and rejected the
> > > >Ka'adans'
> > > >request for a second time on the grounds that "they are unsuitable
for
> > > >living
> > > >in the community and their social and communal integration will not
> > > >succeed."
> > > >
> > > >===============================================
> > > >The Kaadan's were the family who got a ruling from the Israeli High
> > > >Court
> > > >that they could petition the Jewish town set up near Nazareth to
> > > >buy a plot there because the discrimination against them in their
Arab
> > > >town
> > > >limited their education and other opportunities.
> > > >This latest decision is arrant racism, which we have come to expect
from
> > > >Israelis
> > > >but it is still nauseous. Jews in the US have forcefully made
Americans
> > > >
> > > >stop such discrimination, which is entirely right, but for Jews in
> > > >Israel
> > > >to practice such open discrimination is worse than nauseous. It
stands
> > > >for
> > > >the proposition that every country but that of the Jews should
practice
> > > >antidiscrimination, while the Jews have the right to be racist as all
> > > >Hell.
> > > >For shame.
> > > >RLA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Same as the old days is South Africa. Whites only suburbs. Blacks
> > > only allowed in as shit workers.
> > > Tull
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


"> Yardena3 <yard...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020216022921...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> > I've become tired of the BBC, CNN and the like showing a
> > flag-bearing Jew and captioning "A settler illegal under international
> law."
> > Therefore, I sat down and read the League of Nations Mandate (1922 & US
> > ratified '25), the United Nations Charter ('45), the fourth Geneva
> > Convention ('49), and the Security Council resolutions 242 ('67) and
338
> > ('73). The following is my "White Paper."
> >
> > Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip has existed from
> > the very beginning of history - from the Biblical times of Genesis
~1,900
> > B.C.E. when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob settled there - throughout the
> > millennia right up to the present. Jewish settlement has been expressly
> > recognized and re-legitimized again in modern times in the Mandate for
> > Palestine which was ratified by the League of Nations, in San Remo,
Italy
> on
> > June 24th, 1922. (A special American - British Palestine Mandate
> Convention
> > took place afterwards as the United States was not a member of the
League
> of
> > Nations - this was ratified in March 1925.)
> >
> > The Mandate for Palestine provided for the establishment of a Jewish
> state
> > in the Jewish people's ancient homeland and incorporated, in full, the
> > "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917. The Mandate's preamble
> states
> > (paragraph 3): "putting into effect the declaration originally made on
> > November 2, 1917 by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted
> by
> > the other Allied Powers". George V's [ruled 1910-1936] government by
the
> > hand of a former Prime Minister and the then current Foreign Minister,
Sir
> > Arthur James Balfour, made this declaration: "His Majesty's Government
> view
> > with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the
> Jewish
> > people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement
of
> > this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done
which
> > may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish
> > communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by
> Jews
> > in any other country.!
> > " (The declaration is now housed in the British Museum, London.)
> >
> > The Mandate for Palestine further states in Article 6: "The
> Administration
> > of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other
> sections
> > of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish
immigration
> > under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in cooperation with the
> > Jewish Agency referred to in Article 4,
> >
> > close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not
required
> > for public use".
> >
> > Some Jewish settlements, such as in Hebron, have existed from time
> > immemorial through the centuries of Ottoman rule and right up through
the
> > Mandate period. Other settlements such as Neve Ya'acov (northern
> Jerusalem),
> > the Gush Etzion bloc in Judea, the communities north of the Dead Sea in
> > Samaria, and
> > Kfar Darom in the Gaza strip, were established under British Mandatory
> > administration prior to the establishment of the State of Israel (May
15th
> > 1948).
> >
> > The United Nations vote of November 29, 1947 to establish a Jewish
State
> > and an Arab State was accepted by Israel while it was totally rejected
by
> > all the Arab states. The Arabs states commenced an armed conflict when
the
> > British troops left in May 1948 with their stated goal to utterly
destroy
> > the Jewish community. In this war of aggression Egypt took control of
the
> > Gaza strip and Jordan annexed Judea and Samaria - both of these acts
> clearly
> > illegal under international law - these states took control of an area
not
> > previously theirs through a war of aggression. This is clearly not
> > sanctioned by any international resolution, charter, or convention. In a
> war
> > of self-defense in 1948 and again in 1967 Israel found itself left to
> > control much of the original Palestine territory. Israel did not ask for
a
> > war in either '48 or '67 she was forced into them by blatant belligerent
> > declarations and acts and in the process of defending herself found she
> > inherited some several hundred thousand Arabs who have now grown to 1.9
> > million.
> >
> > The UN resolutions: 242 of 22 November 1967 "requires the establishment
> of
> > a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the
> > application of both the following principles: (i) Withdrawal of Israel
> armed
> > forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (ii)
Termination
> of
> > all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement
> of
> > the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of
every
> > State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and
> > recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force" and paragraph
3
> of
> > resolution 338 of 22 October 1973 "Decides that immediately and
> concurrently
> > with the cease-fire, negotiations shall start between the parties
> concerned
> > under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable
peace
> in
> > the Middle East."
> >
> > Conclusion: Until the process of negotiation is complete - the
> settlements can
> > in no tenable way be considered illegal. The settlements cannot be
> considered
> > illegal for they are all in territory which the Nations of the World
> created in
> > the British Mandate of Palestine. In fact, had there been
> > Jewish settlements east of the Jordan river they too would have been
> > legitimate until the signed Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty of October 26,
1994
> > when the borders of that previous Palestine Mandate state became fixed
> > through mutual negotiations.
>
>
>

cb

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 5:33:11 PM2/17/02
to
It's fascinating how those neo-nazis/muslims try to recruit in these groups
with the same stunning luck of success.
"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:4GTb8.6062


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 7:04:27 PM2/17/02
to
Funny how nowadays all who say anything opposing about israelians/jews are
antisemitists or neo-nazis.


- Mika Rantanen


cb

unread,
Feb 17, 2002, 11:28:30 PM2/17/02
to
it's funny how nowadays all those antisemites try to blame the jews for all
the evils of the world under the guiseof being concerned people. It's also
funny how they fail to acheieve their goals each and every time.


Gernot Hassenpflug

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 10:03:10 AM2/18/02
to

--
In the gnus newsreader, use the following very useful and time-saving
lines in summary-mode:

V s C-u 9 L s s p

This lowers the score by 9, and it will hopefully never bother you
again.

To avoid the same author's mails again, use the following score:

V s C-u 9 L a e p

There, and now back to sci.naval.military.....
--
Gernot Hassenpflug MSc.(Eng.) Kyoto University Fax: +81 (0)774 31-8463
Radio Science Centre for Space and Atmospheres Tel: +81 (0)774 38-3868
京都大学宙空電波科学研究センター eMail: ger...@kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp
WebHomePage: http://www.kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp/radar-group/members/gernot

Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 11:29:45 AM2/18/02
to
"Mika Rantanen" <ash...@nospam.saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
news:a4pgd7$17g$1...@tron.sci.fi...

> Funny how nowadays all who say anything opposing about israelians/jews are
> antisemitists or neo-nazis.
> - Mika Rantanen

Not to mention they're usually functionally illiterate...


Martin Sinclair

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 1:14:52 PM2/18/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
>
> "Mika Rantanen" <ash...@nospam.saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
>
> Not to mention they're usually functionally illiterate...

Or posting in a second language. How good is your Finnish?


Martin

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 18, 2002, 8:28:15 PM2/18/02
to

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4GTb8.6062$tu6.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

>
> I don't support violence. However, those Israeli settlements on
Palestinian
> land in the occupied terrorities are illegal and should not be there per
UN
> Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Also, the Mitchell Plan is
against
> those
> settlements as well. Yet, Israel continues to defy the Mitchell Plan in
> building them. The USA should cut off aid to Israel as supporting Israel
is
> NOT worth the cost... If someone kept encroaching on my land (with
> settlements and such), I would be pretty upset about it as well (and I
> wouldn't just "roll over" like the arrogant Israelis expect the
Palestinians
> to do).
>
A few points. Who defines what is legal? Whoever controls a country is
the entity that defines what is legal.
After losing several wars that they started, Palestinians don't really have
anything to say about what is "their" land. They live where they live at the
pleasure and convenience of the victors.
You do support violence. By promoting "rights" that don't exist.


Harry the Horse

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 6:30:41 AM2/19/02
to
"Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:PShc8.79795$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

>
> A few points. Who defines what is legal? Whoever controls a country is
> the entity that defines what is legal.
>
You have heard of international law have you?


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 10:44:09 AM2/19/02
to
"Harry the Horse" <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
news:BHqc8.4506$_U4....@news.easynews.com...

I thought you might find this interesting, regardless of your
religious/political beliefs:
Compiled by a Xian university professor:
HERE ARE THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...
Nationhood and Jerusalem:
1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of
Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over
the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for
the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than
22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem
has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital,
and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Holy Scriptures.
Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.
Arab and Jewish Refugees in 1948:
9. The Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders
promising to purge the land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli
soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since WW2, theirs is the only refugee group in the
world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.
The Arab-Israeli Conflict:
13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including
Palestine. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all
five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The PLO's Charter still calls for destruction of the State of Israel and
expulsion of all Jews. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West
Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their
police with weapons.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
were denied access to places of worship.
Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Xian sites have been preserved and made
accessible to people of all faiths.
The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs:
16. Of 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed
against Israel.
17. Of 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were
directed against Israel.
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the
ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid policy of
preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 10:45:51 AM2/19/02
to
"Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3C71449C...@tality.com...
Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:07:36 AM2/19/02
to
> Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
> Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


How would you know that when you don't know any finnish?

I think I'd win the bet.


- Mika Rantanen


Mika Rantanen

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:12:11 AM2/19/02
to
> Didn't realize he was. My bad. However, I'll bet you 30 Kroner to 100
> Reichsmarks that he's just as stupid in his native tongue...


Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?

I didn't know that. Since when?


- Mika Rantanen


Chas

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 11:38:32 AM2/19/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
> ........

> Compiled by a Xian university professor:

Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
would like to get along without our help. I can think of any number of
cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
year, and be a bit more civil about it too.
I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
nation.

--
Chas

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 12:17:32 PM2/19/02
to

"Harry the Horse" <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
news:BHqc8.4506$_U4....@news.easynews.com...
The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate. Then
that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did not
agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside of
this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
authority to enforce. The US is not governed by any law we did not agree to
follow. This is called sovreignty and all countries have the same right to
make their own laws. When there is a dispute as to who is sovereign, war
solves it and provides a winner who is sovereign.

The oldest international law is the law of the sea. In this case all
seafaring powers have gotten together and agreed amomg themselves on a set
of rules that they will follow and they bind themselves to it. Non-sefaring
powers or those that did not sign the agreements do not have to follow, but
it is generally good sense to follow the rules, which are mostly just
traffic rules that keep ships from running into each other. Lets not get
superstitious about international law. It is not holy writ from the Bible!


Martin Sinclair

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 12:55:12 PM2/19/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:
>
> The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
> nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate. Then
> that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did not
> agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside of
> this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
> authority to enforce.

Unfortunately one of the arguments against this, is that when countries
joined the UN, they signed up to a charter that effectively said that
they wouldn't expand their borders by force, or somesuch.

So, that includes Israel and the US. Well before 1967.

Someone got a better cite than that? Or, perhaps I've got the wrong end
of the stick, in which case an opposing cite is welcome.


Martin

Steven James Forsberg

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 1:50:54 PM2/19/02
to
Martin Sinclair <ms...@tality.com> wrote:

: Michael Flynn wrote:
:>
:> The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
:> nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate. Then
:> that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did not
:> agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside of
:> this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
:> authority to enforce.

This simply isn't true. It is true that it is very hard to enforce
an international law the U.S. doesn't feel like following -- but for the record the
US Government doesn't claim that Senate ratification is needed. Just like
declarations of war, the whole "foreign policy" part of the constitution has
been effectively superceded.
The U.S. (selectively) recognizes the notion of "customary international
law", which in effect says that even if some nations don't agree to a treaty,
if "enough" do then it is binding on all. Or take Colin Powell's recent trial
ballon about reaching a "legally binding" agreement with Russia vis a vis nuclear
disarmement, but clarifying that it "won't requrie senate ratification".
"Executive agreements" and various other mechanisms are valid/enforceable
under international law -- no senate ratification is needed.

Like it or not, the reality of how U.S. foreign policy is conducted is
vastly different than the 7th grade government class version that is commonly
promulgated. Most of the leading figures will admit that, but for some reason
we like to cling to the idea of the "good 'ole days".

regards,
------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu


Coridon Henshaw

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 5:21:21 PM2/19/02
to
Steven James Forsberg <sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu> wrote in
news:a4u6qe$9uae$1...@masala.cc.uh.edu:

> Like it or not, the reality of how U.S. foreign policy is conducted is
> vastly different than the 7th grade government class version that is
> commonly promulgated. Most of the leading figures will admit that, but
> for some reason we like to cling to the idea of the "good 'ole days".

Particularly when 'the good 'ole days' provide an excuse to renege on
international commitments which are bad for US business interests or have
become politically unpopular.


--
49 Americans exposed to anthrax: U.S. considers invalidating Cipro patent
to reduce costs. 36 million people with AIDS: U.S. sues governments which
invalidate drug patents not to save money but so their people can live.
With policies like these, is it any wonder why the US is the most hated
nation on earth? -- Coridon Henshaw / http://www3.sympatico.ca/gcircle/csbh

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 19, 2002, 5:26:11 PM2/19/02
to

Duke of URL <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u74t2je...@corp.supernews.com...

> "Harry the Horse" <ha...@horse.com> wrote in message
> news:BHqc8.4506$_U4....@news.easynews.com...
> > "Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
> > news:PShc8.79795$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
> > >
> > > A few points. Who defines what is legal? Whoever controls a country is
> > > the entity that defines what is legal.
> > >
> > You have heard of international law have you?
>
> I thought you might find this interesting, regardless of your
> religious/political beliefs:
> Compiled by a Xian university professor:
> HERE ARE THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY...
> Nationhood and Jerusalem:
> 1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years before the rise
of
> Islam.

Both palestinians and jews originate from the same race, they are both
semitic, just because some are jews, and some supported other religions does
not mean only the jews get to decide what happens there.


> 2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
> Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
> modern State of Israel.

Before the massive influx of european, russian, north and south american ,
and african jews in the mid 20th century, this problem of palestine did not
exist as it does now.

> 3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over
> the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for
> the past 3,300 years.

So? Other semetic peoples have had a continous presence for the last 3300
years.

> 4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than
> 22 years.

Arab, persian, turkish, english, egyptian, and others have all had a go.
Still, semitic non-jews have lived there as long as semetic jews have.

> 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem
> has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
> Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital,
> and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
> 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Holy Scriptures.
> Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

So?

> 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
> Jerusalem.

And?


> 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
> Jerusalem.

Depends where they are in the world doesn't it? Again so what?

> Arab and Jewish Refugees in 1948:
> 9. The Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders
> promising to purge the land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an
Israeli
> soldier.
> 10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
> brutality, persecution and pogroms.

And the same happened to the palestinians. The jews had been tought a hard
lesson to many times before, and were effective at it.

> 11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
> around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
> to be the same.
> 12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
> Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
> 100,000,000 refugees since WW2, theirs is the only refugee group in the
> world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
> lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
> larger than the state of New Jersey.

The other arab nations don't particulary want the palestinians, after all
they had a country of there own.

> The Arab-Israeli Conflict:
> 13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including
> Palestine. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all
> five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

True.

> 14. The PLO's Charter still calls for destruction of the State of Israel
and
> expulsion of all Jews. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West
> Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied
their
> police with weapons.
> 15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
> were denied access to places of worship.

After supporting the palestinians, and getting beaten by the Israel's,
they're hardly going to be nice.

> Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Xian sites have been preserved and made
> accessible to people of all faiths.

I'm sure Yassar Arafat is very pleased with his accessibility.

> The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs:
> 16. Of 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were
directed
> against Israel.
> 17. Of 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were
> directed against Israel.

So, a lot of countries are not pleased with how Israel came into being, or
of the treatment of the palestinians. The Israeli actions aren't exactly
helping this situation either.

> 18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
> Jordanians.
> 19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the
> ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
> 20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid policy of
> preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

So, other countries act like complete tossers. Whats new there.

The problem here isn't how jordon acts, the problem is two diferent people
want the same bit of land, and there is no obvious answer on who gets it.
The Israelis have current upper hand. The palestinians are desparate. There
are no compromises that will please enough people to make it work.

>
>


tim gueguen

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Feb 19, 2002, 5:53:13 PM2/19/02
to

"James Morris" <jdtm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4GTb8.6062$tu6.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

A ridiculously long(96K according to Outlook Express) post of little if any
relevance to sci.military naval.

tim gueguen 101867


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 1:43:20 AM2/20/02
to

"Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3C729180...@tality.com...

> Michael Flynn wrote:
> >
> > The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
> > nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate.
Then
> > that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did
not
> > agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside of
> > this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
> > authority to enforce.
>
> Unfortunately one of the arguments against this, is that when countries
> joined the UN, they signed up to a charter that effectively said that
> they wouldn't expand their borders by force, or somesuch.
>
Does the charter say that a nation can defend itself when attacked?


> So, that includes Israel and the US. Well before 1967.
>
> Someone got a better cite than that? Or, perhaps I've got the wrong end
> of the stick, in which case an opposing cite is welcome.
>

You may have a point.
I would like to see the exact wording, when Israel signed it and what was
the status of the Palestinian state at that time. No one seemed to think it
improper that when Egypt and Syria attacked them (Israel), that they took
away pieces of those countries that were used to launch the attack.


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 1:59:00 AM2/20/02
to

"Steven James Forsberg" <sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu> wrote in message
news:a4u6qe$9uae$1...@masala.cc.uh.edu...

> Martin Sinclair <ms...@tality.com> wrote:
> : Michael Flynn wrote:
> :>
> :> The only valid international law that the US recognizes is when we as a
> :> nation agree to a treaty and that treaty is ratified by the US Senate.
Then
> :> that international law is recognized in the US but no country that did
not
> :> agree to it is obliged to follow it. Any "international law" outside
of
> :> this is just pompous people making declarations they have no power or
> :> authority to enforce.
>
> This simply isn't true. It is true that it is very hard to enforce
> an international law the U.S. doesn't feel like following -- but for the
record the
> US Government doesn't claim that Senate ratification is needed. Just like
> declarations of war, the whole "foreign policy" part of the constitution
has
> been effectively superceded.

There is an agenda among Communists and One Worlders to try to undermine the
soreignty of the nation in favor of a faceless international bureaucracy,
the better to subjugate the masses.

It is impossible to enforce "international law" if the host country does not
wish to go along with it.
Yes, we go along with treatys and agreements we did not sign, when it is
convenient for us to do so. It is voluntary, and we can change our mind
whenever it suits us. As to the Constitution being superceded, when push
comes to shove, you will find that all of our police and military and anyone
else in any official position has sworn an oath to protect and defend the
constitition against all enemies, including you.

> The U.S. (selectively) recognizes the notion of "customary international
> law", which in effect says that even if some nations don't agree to a
treaty,
> if "enough" do then it is binding on all. Or take Colin Powell's recent
trial
> ballon about reaching a "legally binding" agreement with Russia vis a vis
nuclear
> disarmement, but clarifying that it "won't requrie senate ratification".
> "Executive agreements" and various other mechanisms are valid/enforceable
> under international law -- no senate ratification is needed.
>

enforceable? how? What are you smoking?
When a treaty is broken then both sides no longer need to do whatever they
promised. There are no other consequences unless you wish to go to war over
it.

> Like it or not, the reality of how U.S. foreign policy is conducted is
> vastly different than the 7th grade government class version that is
commonly
> promulgated. Most of the leading figures will admit that, but for some
reason
> we like to cling to the idea of the "good 'ole days".
>

Any 7th graders care to comment?


Keith Willshaw

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 4:37:49 AM2/20/02
to

"Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:UOHc8.86157$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

>
>>
> It is impossible to enforce "international law" if the host country does
not
> wish to go along with it.

That turns out to be inaccurate


> Yes, we go along with treatys and agreements we did not sign, when it is
> convenient for us to do so. It is voluntary, and we can change our mind
> whenever it suits us. As to the Constitution being superceded, when push
> comes to shove, you will find that all of our police and military and
anyone
> else in any official position has sworn an oath to protect and defend the
> constitition against all enemies, including you.
>

Sanctions, including economic ones can be and have been
imposed on many nations that broke international law.

Ask the Iraqi's

Keith


Jim Watt

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 5:03:30 AM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:59:00 GMT, "Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com>
wrote:

>There is an agenda among Communists and One Worlders to try to undermine the
>soreignty of the nation in favor of a faceless international bureaucracy,
>the better to subjugate the masses.

Yeah its that United Nations that are at fault. What have they
ever done for us? apart from the ITU that organises international
telecommunications, the international postal union, the WHO stamping
out diseases, that other acronym that co-ordinates international air
traffic control and safety, the IMO promoting safety at sea, all that
kind of TLA thing really SUCKS, they are worse than the bloody Romans.

The communists have undermined sovereignty so much that half wits
cannot even spell the word, or is it spelt like that in the American
abomination of English ...

When it comes to subjugating the masses the US has a face, the
bad news its Dubya and it comes with a mouth but without a brain.


--
Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com

Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:35:35 AM2/20/02
to
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C727F2B...@attbi.com...

> Duke of URL wrote:
> > ........
> > Compiled by a Xian university professor:
>
> Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> would like to get along without our help.

I have used that abbreviation for many years. It originated centuries ago.
It is not intended to insult anyone; I'm sorry you feel that way. BTW, you
are the *only* one who has ever objected. Also, I'm not the only one who
uses it. If I ever hear from a few of the posters whose opinions I respect
that it offends them, I will drop it.

I can think of any number of
> cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
> year, and be a bit more civil about it too.

??? What did I say that was uncivil?

> I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> nation.

[A] I am not a bigot, as you'd know if you were familiar with me.
[B] I'm not sure who "us" is - you x-posted to a group for British Lawyers,
so are you that?
[C] What slur?
[D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
professor was American, as am I.


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:41:30 AM2/20/02
to
"hitmanh" <hit...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:a4uje2$9sn$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
[snip for space]

> The Israelis have current upper hand. The palestinians are desparate.
There
> are no compromises that will please enough people to make it work.
>
Hitmanh (like your handle, BTW), I am afraid you may prove right. I pray
daily that the situation will resolve peacefully.


The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:26:33 AM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:35:35 -0600, "Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net>
wrote:

>[D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
>professor was American, as am I.

Presumably part of the jewish diaspora.

Martin Sinclair

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 1:02:09 PM2/20/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:
>
> There is an agenda among Communists and One Worlders to try to
> undermine the sovereignty of the nation in favor of a faceless

> international bureaucracy, the better to subjugate the masses.

Erm....you're smiling as you say those words, aren't you....

...please say yes.....


Martin

Martin Sinclair

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 1:06:08 PM2/20/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately one of the arguments against this, is that when countries
> > joined the UN, they signed up to a charter that effectively said that
> > they wouldn't expand their borders by force, or somesuch.
> >
> Does the charter say that a nation can defend itself when attacked?

Well, while that might be the case in 1973 (Yom Kippur) it most
certainly wasn't the case in 1967 (Six-Day War). Or in 1956 (Suez).
In both those cases, Israel attacked first.

Otherwise, why was 90% of the Egyptian Air Force destroyed on the
ground in 1967.......

So, erm, not a good example for you, I'm afraid.


Martin
First of Foot, Right of the Line

Braybrook

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Feb 20, 2002, 1:47:14 PM2/20/02
to
"Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote:.

In both of those instances one of the initial acts by Egypt (prior to
any Israeli military action) was that of denying passage to Israeli
vessels in the Straits of Tiran. Isn't a blockade an act of aggression?

--
It is not the fall that kills you. it's the sudden stop at the end.
Douglas Adams

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 1:56:39 PM2/20/02
to

"Keith Willshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:1014197696.4532.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
They lost a war. Try doing to China what we did to Iraq.


Charles Gray

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 3:27:08 PM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:43:20 GMT, "Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com>
wrote:

>


>> So, that includes Israel and the US. Well before 1967.
>>
>> Someone got a better cite than that? Or, perhaps I've got the wrong end
>> of the stick, in which case an opposing cite is welcome.
>>
>You may have a point.
>I would like to see the exact wording, when Israel signed it and what was
>the status of the Palestinian state at that time. No one seemed to think it
>improper that when Egypt and Syria attacked them (Israel), that they took
>away pieces of those countries that were used to launch the attack.
>

Much of the problem with the territories involves the settlements.
IMHO, there is precedent for nations holding on to captured territory
in order to gaurntee their safety, or for negotiation purposes. Thus,
the Golan,
but the settlements indicate that Isreal intends to make the
territories Isreali, while denying the occupants any rights as to the
government policy.
That changes it from holding on to land for your own safety, to the
intent to claim land via colonization, which is much less defendable
in international law.
I'm not fully on the PA's side-- god knows they've shot themselves
in the foot enough. But when you hear Isreali officials talking about
"natural growth" of the settlements, it's hard to avoid paralells with
the U.S., where "natural growth" of the United States eventually
removed the former owners from about 99 percent of their territory.
The truth of the matter is, that the only reason to have settlements
at all, is that you don't ever intend to leave-- and that was one of
the major causes for war that the UN tried to end.

Andrew Swallow

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 4:29:29 PM2/20/02
to
In article <HjSc8.86448$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com>, "Michael Flynn"
<mef...@cox.com> writes:

>>
>They lost a war. Try doing to China what we did to Iraq.
>

I thought there were laws saying we could not sell nuclear
weapons to the Chinese.

Andrew Swallow

Steven James Forsberg

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 7:27:51 PM2/20/02
to
Braybrook <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
: "Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote:.
: | Michael Flynn wrote:
: | >

: In both of those instances one of the initial acts by Egypt (prior to


: any Israeli military action) was that of denying passage to Israeli
: vessels in the Straits of Tiran. Isn't a blockade an act of aggression?

Ask the Cubans.

Oh, that was a "quarantine". :-)

regards,
------------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 8:42:48 PM2/20/02
to

"Martin Sinclair" <ms...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3C73E4A1...@tality.com...
Actually, I know they don't think in those terms. They think they are
do-gooders who need to make all of our decisions for us because they know
what is good for us more than we do.


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 8:48:53 PM2/20/02
to

"Andrew Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20020220162929...@mb-cm.news.cs.com...
I suppose you are hinting at something but I fail to see the point.
Our laws are applicable to Us citizens, and to the best of my knowledge
nobody sold them nuclear weapons.


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 8:56:02 PM2/20/02
to

"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C727F2B...@attbi.com...
> Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> would like to get along without our help. I can think of any number of
> cultures that would be happy to see us and our 3 billion dollars a
> year, and be a bit more civil about it too.
> I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> nation.
>
As I understand it, the US agreed to give both Egypt and Israel equal aid
of $3 billion per year if Egypt would agree to have peace with Israel. Do
you want to stop giving it to both countries or just to Israel?

cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:03:18 PM2/20/02
to
> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?
>
> I didn't know that. Since when?

Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their goals.
The ironic thing is that if they chosen to work for their goals through
peaceful means Israel would have given them everything they wanted and then
some. Not to mention that all of those idiotic suicide bombers would still
be alive.


cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:05:05 PM2/20/02
to
Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
A: Israel.

Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
settlement in Israel?
A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)

Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
1920?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
Israel?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who adopted a policy of non-co-operation with
the British mandators in 1933 thereby
torpedoing the possibility of finding any
solution for years to come?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched further riots in 1936 which lasted
over three years?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opposed another attempt at resolving the
impasse in 1937 following the Peel Commission
report?
A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel OKed it.)

Q: Who opposed the UN-devised solution in 1947
and instigated yet more riots?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who invaded the state of Israel just one day
after its proclamation?
A: The Arabs with no fewer than five armies.

Q: Who increases tension in the region in 1967
by moving its troops to Sinai and blockading
the Gulf of Aqaba?
A: Egypt.

Q: Who refused to recognise or negotiate with
Israel in 1967-8?
A: Eight Arab states, including the 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who invades Lebanon in 1970 to support the PLO
and threaten Jordan?
A: Syria.

Q: Who murders 11 Israeli athletes in Munich?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched a dastardly attack on Israel on
its holliest day (Yom Kippur) in 1973?
A: Egypt and Syria. {And then they want us to
halt the bombing for their 'holy' Ramadan.}

Q: Who launched attacks from Lebanon on Israel
in 1976?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who hijacked 103 hostages on an airplane?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who launched a torrer raid on Israel leaving
37 civilians dead and 82 injured in 1978?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opposes the peace treaty between Israel
and Egypt in 1979?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who killed 241 Marines by suicide bombing
in Lebanon in 1984?
A: A 'Palestinian'.

Q: Who hijacked an Italian cruise ship, killed
a wheelchair-bound civilian and threw him
overboard?
A: 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who gets so fed up with the 'PLO'
intransigence that it withdraws support for
it?
A: Jordan.

Q: Who instigated the 'intifada' in 1987 in
Israeli-administered civilian areas?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who relinquishes claim to the West Bank in
1988?
A: Jordan.

Q: Following peace treaties with Arab countries
and the 'PLO's' recognition of Israel, who
engages in bona fide negotiations with
Jordan/'PLO' regarding 'Palestinian'
self-rule?
A: Israel.

Q: Who ends its control of the West Bank and
Gaza after handing over Jericho to the
'Palestinians' in 1994?
A: Israel.

Q: Who kills over 30 civilians in three
suicide bombings in 1995?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who murders 63 people in suicide bombings
in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon in 1996?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opens fire on Israeli soldiers in 1996
breaching Olso II?
A: The 'Palestinian' 'police'.

Q: Who murders 8 civilians in three suicide
bombings in 1997?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who rejects the offer of 98 % of the
'disputed' territories, including joint
control of East Jerusalem and organise an
'intifada' in stead in 2000?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

Q: Who opens machine-gun fire on a civilian
bus, murdering two--including a 16-y-o
girl--and injuring 35, as 'thanks' for the
Israeli withdrawal from Bethlehem last
month?
A: The 'Palestinians'.

cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:07:23 PM2/20/02
to
then we should as well withdraw our support from Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan,
and Kuwait with SA(whose economies are pretty much built on American $$).
and BTW writing Xtians instead of Christians is a perfectly accepted. If you
don't like it tough. That's why this country is great. Democracy forever.

cb

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 9:09:49 PM2/20/02
to
The problem of Chechnya, WTC, Philippines, Serbia, Kashmir, Nigeria didn't
exist either until recently. are you blaming Jews as well for those
conflicts.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 11:49:32 PM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:05:05 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>A: Israel.
>
>Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?
>A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)
>
>Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
> 1920?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.
>
>Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.

'Israel' didn't exist in 1922.

(snip tale of woe)

Q: Who is the source of all the problems in the Middle East?
A: The 'Israelis'.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 20, 2002, 11:49:34 PM2/20/02
to
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:03:18 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people stupid?
>>
>> I didn't know that. Since when?
>
>Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their goals.

And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
children) in retaliation.

Dennis Jensen

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 2:36:03 AM2/21/02
to
"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

> Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> A: Israel.
>

Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
middle east that have suffrage.

> Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)
>

And who is thwarting the process now? Look at Israel being dragged kicking
and screaming to "giving up" what was never theirs (West Bank and Gaza).
Imagine there is an attempt to negotiate a settlement with the Palestinians
that requires that Israel gives up half of it's 1948 land area. Think Israel
will oppose such negotiations? Pretty dumb, really! Think about it, the
Palestinians had everything to lose, the Jews everything to gain. The Jews
at the time had NO rights in the region. BTW, Israel did NOT fully
cooperate, Israel was not even a state.

> Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
> 1920?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And certain militant Jewish groups didn't do that to the Palestinians? Learn
your history.

> Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

As above.

> Q: Who adopted a policy of non-co-operation with
> the British mandators in 1933 thereby
> torpedoing the possibility of finding any
> solution for years to come?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Solution to WHAT? The Palestinians did not see a problem that required
resolving, particualrly not a solution which required territory handover.

> Q: Who launched further riots in 1936 which lasted
> over three years?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And?

> Q: Who opposed another attempt at resolving the
> impasse in 1937 following the Peel Commission
> report?
> A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel OKed it.)
>

Israel didn't-Israel didn't exist.

> Q: Who opposed the UN-devised solution in 1947
> and instigated yet more riots?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Why would they agree? The "solution" resulted in losses of land from the
Palestinian point of view, and in the gain of land for the Jews.

> Q: Who invaded the state of Israel just one day
> after its proclamation?
> A: The Arabs with no fewer than five armies.
>

As above.

> Q: Who increases tension in the region in 1967
> by moving its troops to Sinai and blockading
> the Gulf of Aqaba?
> A: Egypt.
>

And? Who conducted a pre-empitive strike (although on this one, Israel was
justified).

> Q: Who refused to recognise or negotiate with
> Israel in 1967-8?
> A: Eight Arab states, including the 'Palestinians'.
>

And why should they have? Would Israel happily hand over any of their
territory? Hell, they won't even hand over territory that is not theirs!

> Q: Who invades Lebanon in 1970 to support the PLO
> and threaten Jordan?
> A: Syria.
>

And?

> Q: Who murders 11 Israeli athletes in Munich?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

A militant group. What would you call Urgin (I think that is the spelling).
You know, the terrorist organisation that killed many British soldiers. The
organisation that Begin belonged to. You know, the guy who later became PM
of Israel?

> Q: Who launched a dastardly attack on Israel on
> its holliest day (Yom Kippur) in 1973?
> A: Egypt and Syria. {And then they want us to
> halt the bombing for their 'holy' Ramadan.}
>

Dastardly attack. What about the 1982 invasion of Lebanon?

> Q: Who launched attacks from Lebanon on Israel
> in 1976?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And?

> Q: Who hijacked 103 hostages on an airplane?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Who sank a USN ship? The Israelis!

> Q: Who launched a torrer raid on Israel leaving
> 37 civilians dead and 82 injured in 1978?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

And what about the terror raid on the prison camp in 1982?

> Q: Who opposes the peace treaty between Israel
> and Egypt in 1979?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Why not? They see Israel as THEIR land!

> Q: Who killed 241 Marines by suicide bombing
> in Lebanon in 1984?
> A: A 'Palestinian'.
>

A single individual, and you blame all Palestinians for it? Who blew up an
office building in the US, killing over 100? An American (Timothy McVeigh).
So, do you blame all Americans for that?

> Q: Who hijacked an Italian cruise ship, killed
> a wheelchair-bound civilian and threw him
> overboard?
> A: 'Palestinians'.
>

Well, you could just say "humans" to that!

> Q: Who gets so fed up with the 'PLO'
> intransigence that it withdraws support for
> it?
> A: Jordan.
>

And?

> Q: Who instigated the 'intifada' in 1987 in
> Israeli-administered civilian areas?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

What were Jews in Palestine doing in the mid-1940's? What were they doing in
Lebanon in the 1980's?

> Q: Who relinquishes claim to the West Bank in
> 1988?
> A: Jordan.
>

And?

> Q: Following peace treaties with Arab countries
> and the 'PLO's' recognition of Israel, who
> engages in bona fide negotiations with
> Jordan/'PLO' regarding 'Palestinian'
> self-rule?
> A: Israel.
>

Really?

> Q: Who ends its control of the West Bank and
> Gaza after handing over Jericho to the
> 'Palestinians' in 1994?
> A: Israel.
>

Oh, so those areas are no longer under Israeli control? They are now not
part of Israel, but separate political entities? News to me!

> Q: Who kills over 30 civilians in three
> suicide bombings in 1995?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who murders 63 people in suicide bombings
> in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon in 1996?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who opens fire on Israeli soldiers in 1996
> breaching Olso II?
> A: The 'Palestinian' 'police'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who murders 8 civilians in three suicide
> bombings in 1997?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Israeli response?

> Q: Who rejects the offer of 98 % of the
> 'disputed' territories, including joint
> control of East Jerusalem and organise an
> 'intifada' in stead in 2000?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>

Joint control over land that is actually theirs? Yeah, I can really see why
the Palestinians should be happy with that;)

> Q: Who opens machine-gun fire on a civilian
> bus, murdering two--including a 16-y-o
> girl--and injuring 35, as 'thanks' for the
> Israeli withdrawal from Bethlehem last
> month?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.

Who goes into Palestinian areas with helicopter gunships, blasting away
merrily? Who kills a 4 year old boy?

Suggest you do a little research. Suggest you look into the total number of
Israeli civilians killed in the past however many years you choose to look
into. Then look into the number of Arab civilian deaths directly caused by
Israel, and come back to us with the numbers (i.e. far more
Arabs/palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel than vice versa).

This is a very vexed question that you are looking at in a very simplistic
manner. Both sides have blood on their hands, and to suggest (which you
appear to be doing) that one side is squeaky clean is to ignore the facts.
--
Dennis Jensen
Author of "The Flying Pigs"
http://www.ebooks-online.com/ebooks/search.asp
NOW ONLINE


Chas

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 10:11:14 AM2/21/02
to
Duke of URL wrote:
> ........
> > > Compiled by a Xian university professor:
> > Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone-
> I have used that abbreviation for many years. It originated centuries ago.

Hell, that's a good excuse-
There are a bunch of words that originated centuries ago that we don't
accept in polite society- it's similar to 'Hebes' for Hebrews; a
condescending appellation denoting contempt.

> It is not intended to insult anyone;

Sure it is- anytime you call someone out of their name, it's meant in
a denigratory fashion.
At least fess up about it.

> I'm sorry you feel that way. BTW, you
> are the *only* one who has ever objected.

Yeah- most of us just turn the other cheek.

> Also, I'm not the only one who
> uses it.

If they all jumped over a cliff would you jump too?

> If I ever hear from a few of the posters whose opinions I respect
> that it offends them, I will drop it.

Mighty white of you.

> > I was just looking in the 'What has Israel done for us' column, and
> > it's empty- hardly the basis for a bigoted slur from a supplicant
> > nation.
> [A] I am not a bigot, as you'd know if you were familiar with me.

'By their fruits shall ye know them.'

> [B] I'm not sure who "us" is - you x-posted to a group for British Lawyers,
> so are you that?

I just hit 'reply'-

> [C] What slur?

don't be thick.

> [D] Umm, what makes you think that came from "a supplicant nation"? - The
> professor was American, as am I.

An apologia for Israel is on behalf of a supplicant nation. Israel
wouldn't exist but for the special interest that we Christians extend
to them. Our religion says; 'Who loves Jerusalem, loves the Lord'.
They would not exist but for our loving support.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx/castool1.jpg

Chas

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 10:16:51 AM2/21/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:

> "Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps we 'Xians' ought to just leave Israel alone- withdraw our
> > billions in support, stop traveling to the Holy Land at great expense.
> > If you can't have the courtesy to call us by our name, perhaps you
> > would like to get along without our help.
> As I understand it, the US agreed to give both Egypt and Israel equal aid
> of $3 billion per year if Egypt would agree to have peace with Israel. Do
> you want to stop giving it to both countries or just to Israel?

I'd do a show of hands; 'everybody that isn't spying on the US, raise
your hand', 'everybody that appreciates 3 thousand million dollars in
aid per year, raise your hand', 'everybody that knows how to spell
'Christian', raise your hand (no, Mr. Sharon, not 'palm up').
It's like when the Kuwaitis called us 'white slaves' in appreciation
for our help in Desert Storm; just insulting and tiresome.

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 12:50:28 PM2/21/02
to

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...

As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.

If you can't see the difference then you've got a problem.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three


William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 12:51:50 PM2/21/02
to

Dennis Jensen <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...

> "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> > Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> > A: Israel.
> >
>
> Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
> middle east that have suffrage.

I'll play.

And which ones have a free vote and a free press?

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 1:55:01 PM2/21/02
to

"William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a53c3m$cgt$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...

>
> Dennis Jensen <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
> news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...
> > "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> > news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> > > Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> > > A: Israel.
> > >
> >
> > Nope, depending on how you view democracy, there are many nations in the
> > middle east that have suffrage.
>
> I'll play.
>
> And which ones have a free vote and a free press?
>
> Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
>
Iraq and Syria, ruled by the Baath party, are about as democratic as Nazi
Germany. Iran has elections that don't count, because there is no way
elections can dislodge the clerics once they are in power. In this way
Islamic government is a lot like Communist government: you can vote them in,
but votes will never get them out.
Turkey is fairly democratic, but is it the middle east? Secularism is
more important than democracy, as under the constitution of Turkey it is the
duty of the army to remove any Islamic government even if it is elected by
the majority of the people.
Israel is democratic for now, but you know theat when Israeli Arabs
become a majority they are not going to be allowed to take over the country.
Actually, too much is made of democracy. What we have in the US is a
republic, not a democracy. In a democracy 51% of the people can vote to
enslave and take all the property from the other 49%. Democracy can only
work in a completly homogenous country with no class distinctions. We should
not concern ourselves with trying to export "democracy". Justice would be a
better goal. Far better than that would be security and prosperity for
ourselves and let others look to their own interests. (This is how the
French do it).


Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:05:16 AM2/21/02
to
In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes

>Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>A: Israel.
>
Saudi Arabia is more democractic.

>Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?

>Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in


> 1920?
>A: The 'Palestinians'.

See above.

>
>Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?

See above.

I wonder if our friend has seen the original version of this!
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/2634/ITMA.html

http://www.financialreform.20m.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/satpalramisguilty/index.html

http://www.searchlightarchive.20m.com/index.html

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:06:38 PM2/21/02
to

Michael Flynn <mef...@cox.com> wrote in message
news:9obd8.88310$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> Actually, too much is made of democracy. What we have in the US is a
> republic, not a democracy.

Bonkers...

William Black

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:29:04 PM2/21/02
to

Alexander Baron <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

> In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
> writes
> >Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> >A: Israel.
> >
> Saudi Arabia is more democractic.

Well I was worried for a moment then.

But the appearance of Alexander Baron, well know conspiracy theorist, BNP
apologist and all round nut job has reassured me.

He's always wrong.

He also writes poetry, I've never laughed so much...

Try it at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/2634/poetry.html
,talk about Vogons...

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:51:41 PM2/21/02
to
I have not blamed anything on the jews. I happen to think that the state of
Israel must take some of the responsibility, but I don't think I have
mentioned the jews, as a religion, having any fault in this.

There have been some very nasty little wars and plenty of terrorism within
the last 55 years, its not a nineties thing you know.

You have to remember that before Israel came into being, Palestine was a
small third world country, with no local system of administration. It had
been part of someone elses empire for hundreds for years. At the time, the
British, were running things, but they were interested in leaving pretty
quickly. They had enough problems rebuilding the UK after the war, and being
caught between the jews wanting somewhere safe, and the palestinians, who
didn't object to that idea (they just wanted to know why they had to give up
"their own" land).This didn't exactly make them feel like they wanted to
hang around. There was also pressure from the US to help resolve the jewish
homeland problem, and they would have left pretty quickly.

Regards

Hitmanh


cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:uGYc8.17$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:52:30 PM2/21/02
to
I have not blamed anything on the jews. I happen to think that the state of
Israel must take some of the responsibility, but I don't think I have
mentioned the jews, as a religion, having any fault in this.

There have been some very nasty little wars and plenty of terrorism within
the last 55 years, its not a nineties thing you know.

You have to remember that before Israel came into being, Palestine was a
small third world country, with no local system of administration. It had
been part of someone elses empire for hundreds for years. At the time, the
British, were running things, but they were interested in leaving pretty
quickly. They had enough problems rebuilding the UK after the war, and being
caught between the jews wanting somewhere safe, and the palestinians, who
didn't object to that idea (they just wanted to know why they had to give up
"their own" land).This didn't exactly make them feel like they wanted to
hang around. There was also pressure from the US to help resolve the jewish
homeland problem, and they would have left pretty quickly.

Regards

Hitmanh
cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:uGYc8.17$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 3:53:09 PM2/21/02
to
I have not blamed anything on the jews. I happen to think that the state of
Israel must take some of the responsibility, but I don't think I have
mentioned the jews, as a religion, having any fault in this.

There have been some very nasty little wars and plenty of terrorism within
the last 55 years, its not a nineties thing you know.

You have to remember that before Israel came into being, Palestine was a
small third world country, with no local system of administration. It had
been part of someone elses empire for hundreds for years. At the time, the
British, were running things, but they were interested in leaving pretty
quickly. They had enough problems rebuilding the UK after the war, and being
caught between the jews wanting somewhere safe, and the palestinians, who
didn't object to that idea (they just wanted to know why they had to give up
"their own" land).This didn't exactly make them feel like they wanted to
hang around. There was also pressure from the US to help resolve the jewish
homeland problem, and they would have left pretty quickly.

Regards

Hitmanh
cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:uGYc8.17$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 4:04:16 PM2/21/02
to

cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

> Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
> A: Israel.
>
> Q: Who opposed the attempt in 1918 to negotiate a
> settlement in Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'. (Israel fully co-operated.)

The state of Israel did not exist then.


>
> Q: Who attacked Jewish settlements in Israel in
> 1920?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>
> Q: Who frustrated another attempt to find a
> solution in 1922 and started riots throughout
> Israel?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.
>
> Q: Who adopted a policy of non-co-operation with
> the British mandators in 1933 thereby
> torpedoing the possibility of finding any
> solution for years to come?
> A: The 'Palestinians'.

Who blew up British troops?

Why, in all of the above, do you keep talking about terrorist groups, as a
whole nation.

In Northern Ireland, both the British, Irish, and Sein Fein are talking
about peace. Even so, the Real IRA and some Unionist groups still use
violence. No one accuse Ireland of being this. So why are you presenting the
whole of the Palestinian nation as a terrorist group?

I see you didn't mention any Israeli killings, etc.

I do not condone terrorism by the Palestinian groups, as I do not condone
terrorism bu Unionist/IRA groups, but I do object to a vilification of a
nation.

As I have said before, there will be no easy solution for this, but
representing either side as a bunch of terrorists, fit only to be
slaughtered will NOT solve a thing.

Regards

Hitmanh


hitmanh

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 4:10:19 PM2/21/02
to

Duke of URL <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u77d9u2...@corp.supernews.com...
> "hitmanh" <hit...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
> news:a4uje2$9sn$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> [snip for space]
> > The Israelis have current upper hand. The palestinians are desparate.
> There
> > are no compromises that will please enough people to make it work.
> >
> Hitmanh (like your handle, BTW), I am afraid you may prove right. I pray
> daily that the situation will resolve peacefully.
>
>

Unfortunetaly this is going to be a very slow long process, but I do beleive
it will be solved in the log run.

There will be plenty of killing, on both side, before it is over though :0(

Regards

Hitmanh

PS Apologies for the spelling, I'm feeling to lazely to loom anything up at
the moment.


Jim Yanik

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 5:28:44 PM2/21/02
to
mef...@cox.com (Michael Flynn) wrote in
<9obd8.88310$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com>:


> Turkey is fairly democratic, but is it the middle east? Secularism is
>more important than democracy, as under the constitution of Turkey it is
>the duty of the army to remove any Islamic government even if it is
>elected by the majority of the people.

Kemal Ataturk valued the separation of church and state.Smart man.I wish
some Americans would accept it.

--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove X to contact me

M.J.Powell

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 4:07:25 PM2/21/02
to
>>
>> >> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people
>stupid?
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know that. Since when?
>> >
>> >Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their
>goals.
>>
>> And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
>> children) in retaliation.
>
>As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
>of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.

Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:47:56 PM2/21/02
to
Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties, muslims do their best to
inflict the largest amount of civilian casualties.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:49:24 PM2/21/02
to
Do you make difference between killing civilians and killing armed personnel
"M.J.Powell" <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:52:35 PM2/21/02
to
I think you need a history lesson. Before 1969 there wasn't even a mention
of Palestine. There was "Trans-Jordan" until 1960 when Syrian, Egypt and
Jordanian refugees suddenly decided to have their own state or as a call: it
a convenient base to launch attacks on the Jews.

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:54:04 PM2/21/02
to
Israel is the only one who has democratically elected president and
congress. the only other country in the region that has the same is India
but she is located more in south Asia rather than ME.

"Dennis Jensen" <jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote in message
news:a5283r$spc$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:56:02 PM2/21/02
to
Agree with that. Wish there were more people like him in the arabic world.
Than we wouldn't have any problems with them.

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:56:54 PM2/21/02
to
what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?

"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

cb

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 8:58:11 PM2/21/02
to
You see the word "Settlement" it is quite different from the word "state".
"hitmanh" <hti...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:a53ncf$7rf$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...

Andrew Swallow

unread,
Feb 21, 2002, 9:34:14 PM2/21/02
to
In article <9mYc8.87293$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com>, "Michael Flynn"
<mef...@cox.com> writes:

>
>"Andrew Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
>news:20020220162929...@mb-cm.news.cs.com...
>> In article <HjSc8.86448$B61.27...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com>, "Michael
>Flynn"
>> <mef...@cox.com> writes:
>>
>> >>
>> >They lost a war. Try doing to China what we did to Iraq.
>> >
>>
>> I thought there were laws saying we could not sell nuclear
>> weapons to the Chinese.
>>
>I suppose you are hinting at something but I fail to see the point.
>Our laws are applicable to Us citizens, and to the best of my knowledge
> nobody sold them nuclear weapons.
>
The USA *IS* running sanctions against China, it bans the sale
of nuclear weapons. The USA also dares to ban the export
of other weapons as well.

Before the Iran-Iraq War, Britain and the USA sold Middle-Eastern
counties practically every weapon we had, except for
nuclear weapons.

It was not what I was writing about but a few years a go
British Customs stopped the export to Iraq of electronic
parts of nuclear weapons.

Andrew Swallow

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:46:55 AM2/22/02
to
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties

Unsuccessfully, it seems.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:46:56 AM2/22/02
to
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:50:28 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
>news:3c747c0e...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:03:18 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> Not supporting Israel's actions against palestinians makes people
>stupid?
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know that. Since when?
>> >
>> >Ever since Pals started blowing up innocent civilians to attain their
>goals.
>>
>> And since 'Israel' started killing innocent civilians (including
>> children) in retaliation.
>
>As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a matter
>of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>
>If you can't see the difference then you've got a problem.
>

Tank shells and booby traps don't discriminate between adults and
children.

http://www.jmcc.org/new/01/Jun/childaqsa.htm
will give you the names of 137 'terrorists' between the ages of 4
months and 17 years killed in the 9 months up to June 2001.

Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 5:01:51 AM2/22/02
to

"Andrew Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20020221213414...@mb-mo.news.cs.com...

> >
> The USA *IS* running sanctions against China, it bans the sale
> of nuclear weapons. The USA also dares to ban the export
> of other weapons as well.
>
Now I know why I couldn't make any sense out of your note...
The US has never sold, and never will sell nuclear weapons to any country.
Does that mean we are running sanctions against the entire planet?

When you say that the US bans the export of weapons, are you saying that
Americans who are subject to US law are not allowed to export weapons or are
you implying that the US is prohibiting any other country from exporting
weapons? If the latter is what you are saying then it is preposterous. The
US cannot tell any other country what to do, but we can apply pressure to
get our wish, as much as we dare. And any country can ignore our pressure.


Michael Flynn

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 5:12:22 AM2/22/02
to

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties
>
> Unsuccessfully, it seems.

What do you expect? They are not gods. They do as well as any human being
could do.
Your argument lacks sincerity and integrity. You see this as a word game
with no intention of examining the actual situation.


Andrew Chaplin

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 7:08:47 AM2/22/02
to
Michael Flynn wrote:

> Now I know why I couldn't make any sense out of your note...
> The US has never sold, and never will sell nuclear weapons to any country.

Sell? No, but they were prepared to provide them to allies such as
Canada, viz: Bomarc, Voodoo armed with Genie and Honest John, and
nuclear doctrine in CENTAG included the possibility of using any
artillery unit that was 155mm or larger.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger."
out, and change "home" to "rogers".)

Braybrook

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 7:27:23 AM2/22/02
to
"Andrew Chaplin" <abch...@yourfinger.home.com> wrote:
| Michael Flynn wrote:
|
| > Now I know why I couldn't make any sense out of your note...
| > The US has never sold, and never will sell nuclear weapons to any
country.
|
| Sell? No, but they were prepared to provide them to allies such as
| Canada, viz: Bomarc, Voodoo armed with Genie and Honest John, and
| nuclear doctrine in CENTAG included the possibility of using any
| artillery unit that was 155mm or larger.

Would those have been under the same restrictions as the Thor's that the
RAF operated in the 1950's:
http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/ThorUK.htm
Macmillan reported to Parliament __The rockets can not be fired by any
except the British personnel, but the warhead will be in the control of
the United States - which is the law of the United States- and to that
extent the Americans have negative control;__

--
If all that Americans want is security they can go to prison. They'll
have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an
American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human
being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1949


The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 6:49:57 AM2/22/02
to
On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:12:22 GMT, "Michael Flynn" <mef...@cox.com>
wrote:

>
>"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
>news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:47:56 -0500, "cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Israel does it's best to avoid civilian casualties
>>
>> Unsuccessfully, it seems.
>
>What do you expect? They are not gods. They do as well as any human being
>could do.

In other words they have a cavalier attitude to civilian casualties:
anybody who gets in the way of a tank shell shouldn't have been there
in the first place.

>Your argument lacks sincerity and integrity. You see this as a word game
>with no intention of examining the actual situation.
>

The actual situation is that we are not dealing with a civilised
nation here.

Sky King

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 9:41:30 AM2/22/02
to
In article <lwhd8.15$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, spa...@spamcop.net
says...
> If the US did not support Israel it would be a third world country too. sky

Peter Skelton

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 10:10:06 AM2/22/02
to

The US a third world country? Pardon my disbelief.


____

Peter Skelton

Andrew Chaplin

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 10:59:09 AM2/22/02
to
"Braybrook" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:LOqd8.3309$15....@www.newsranger.com...

> Would those have been under the same restrictions as the Thor's that the
> RAF operated in the 1950's:
> http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/ThorUK.htm
> Macmillan reported to Parliament __The rockets can not be fired by any
> except the British personnel, but the warhead will be in the control of
> the United States - which is the law of the United States- and to that
> extent the Americans have negative control;__

Yes. Mind you, I am not clear on most of the details, except where it comes
to NATO tac arty nuke doctrine. John Clearwater, however, has produced a
monograph on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1550023292/review
s/103-2401139-1296651#15500232923201 (some assembly of the URL may be
required, I'm using Outlook Express)

William Black

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 12:07:08 PM2/22/02
to

M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tjipiDBN...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...

> >As I understand the position the Palestinians blow up children as a


matter
> >of policy and the Israeli Army blow them up by accident.
>
> Do you make a difference between 'by accident' and 'recklessly'?

Does the US Airforce?

If you can't tell the difference between policy and unfortunate accident
then it's you who's got a problem.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

John D Salt

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:28:34 PM2/22/02
to
rene...@anglican.org (The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe) wrote
in news:3c762f6...@news.cis.dfn.de:

[Snips]


>>What do you expect? They are not gods. They do as well as
>>any human being could do.
>
> In other words they have a cavalier attitude to civilian
> casualties: anybody who gets in the way of a tank shell
> shouldn't have been there in the first place.
>
>>Your argument lacks sincerity and integrity. You see this
>>as a word game with no intention of examining the actual
>>situation.
>>
> The actual situation is that we are not dealing with a
> civilised nation here.

I notice that you don't seem to think it resonable to hold the
Palestinians and their friends to "civilised" standards.

I also notice that you seem to be unaware of the long-established
terrorist tactics of hiding among the civil populace, and of
seeking to provokle disproportionate responses from the security
forces.

All the best,

John.

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:47:10 PM2/22/02
to
Funny, that. The British used the name Palestine, when they were in control
during the wars, and I believe the romans gave the region the name
Palestine. So it has been used once or twice before 1969.

Regards

Hitmanh


cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:lwhd8.15$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

hitmanh

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:48:04 PM2/22/02
to
My apologies, I misread the meaning of settlement, I thought you meant
settlement as in agreement. Oh well.

Regards

Hitmanh


cb <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:BBhd8.19$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:50:13 AM2/22/02
to
In article <a53laf$6ui$1...@helle.btinternet.com>, William Black
<black_...@hotmail.com> writes

>
>Alexander Baron <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <1CYc8.15$fm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
>> writes
>> >Q: Which is the only democracy in the Middle East?
>> >A: Israel.
>> >
>> Saudi Arabia is more democractic.
>
>Well I was worried for a moment then.
>
>But the appearance of Alexander Baron, well know conspiracy theorist, BNP

Conspiracy - combination of persons for an unlawful or immoral purpose.
If I'm a crank then so is the US government because they believe the Al
Queida network is a worldwide conspiracy. Recent events demonstrate they
might just have a point.
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/2634/ITMA.html

http://www.financialreform.20m.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/satpalramisguilty/index.html

http://www.searchlightarchive.20m.com/index.html

Alexander Baron

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 2:51:00 AM2/22/02
to
In article <oAhd8.18$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
writes

>what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?
>"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

The fact that I would be safer and happier living in Saudi than in the
Zionist entity. Especially as I am a non-drinker.

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:21:09 PM2/22/02
to

To this I can only again repost:

"If you can't tell the difference between policy and unfortunate accident
then it's you who's got a problem."

> will give you the names of 137 'terrorists' between the ages of 4

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:22:37 PM2/22/02
to
seeing as Israel has one of the best militaries in the world. It's been
pretty successful in avoid unnecessary casualties. If it wanted to inflict
any civilian casualties to the arab world I can only assure you the entire
ME would go to see allah long time ago.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c75d7bd...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:23:39 PM2/22/02
to
that's for sure. None of the muslime nations are part of civilized world
since about 600 yrs ago.

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglican.org> wrote in message
news:3c762f6...@news.cis.dfn.de...

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:24:30 PM2/22/02
to
How did you figure that out?

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:26:04 PM2/22/02
to
there was a place called palestine but there was no country Palestine before
1969. I hope you can see the difference. Just like there is a place named
Alabama but there is no country Alabama.

"hitmanh" <hti...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:a5677t$qdf$1...@helle.btinternet.com...

cb

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 4:28:46 PM2/22/02
to
well I am a non-drinker as well and I also like pork and like to do stuff on
Saturdays as well and all of those things are allowed in Israel although
they are forbidden by Jewish laws. Pray tell me do you think you could you
violate islamic laws just as easily in SA as you can disobey Jewish
religious laws in Israel.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 6:12:46 AM2/23/02
to

Your assurances are meaningless. There are at least two nuclear
powers in the Islamic world. All out war would not leave 'Israel'
unscathed.

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 6:12:45 AM2/23/02
to

The policy is to shell heavily populated Palestinian areas in reprisal
for suicide bombings. The 'unfortunate accidents' are a direct
consequence of this policy.

Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:32:38 AM2/23/02
to
"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3Tz1aSCk...@abaron.demon.co.uk...

> In article <oAhd8.18$x33...@typhoon.nyu.edu>, cb <spa...@spamcop.net>
> writes
> >what are you basing that on. The fact that SA is a theocratic kingdom?
> >"Alexander Baron" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:7G1m$HC8oK...@abaron.demon.co.uk...
>
> The fact that I would be safer and happier living in Saudi than in the
> Zionist entity. Especially as I am a non-drinker.

Could that POSSIBLY be because there are no Jewish terrorists
machine-gunning groups of Saudi schoolgirls, bombing Saudi shopping centers,
et cetera? Hmmm? Get the point?


Duke of URL

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:39:03 AM2/23/02
to
"cb" <spa...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cGyd8.19$6M3...@typhoon.nyu.edu...

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Just to pick one example, Pakistan seems
to be a decent part of the modern world. Mostly.
BTW: Does *anyone* think that it would be possible to have a gigantic
gathering of religious Jews like the current Muslim one in Mecca without it
being attacked?


William Black

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:36:10 AM2/23/02
to

Duke of URL <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u7f6tca...@corp.supernews.com...

> Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Just to pick one example, Pakistan
seems
> to be a decent part of the modern world. Mostly.

Pakistan is an extremely nasty military dictatorship with a reputation for
hanging Prime Ministers and supporting Islamic terrorism in India.

Just before 911 it was about to get the same treatment Zimbabwe is getting
now.

Plus a serious slapping from India

The only reason it didn't is because the USA needed them.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because they are on our side that
they're nice.

Sky King

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:46:47 AM2/23/02
to
In article <u7f6h0o...@corp.supernews.com>, macb...@kdsi.net
says...
> Instead we have Jewish Tanks blowing up innocent people's homes and killing
schoolgirls and boys. We have Jewish soldiers using guns to fight rock
throwers etc. Its not the Palestine authority that is attacking Israel
but just some idiots. Lets say someone from Canada blew up one some of
our people....would we then go there and kill innocent people?
NO! We would just punish those responsible. >

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:08:02 AM2/23/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:39:03 -0600, "Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net>
wrote:

They tried that in New York City. It got attacked.

Arthur L. Rubin

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 11:33:27 AM2/23/02
to
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe wrote:

> There are at least two nuclear
> powers in the Islamic world.

Who? Iraq and Pakistan? I don't know about
Iraq, but Pakistan probably wouldn't complain
about their neighbors being invaded by Israel.

--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com


Jim Yanik

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 11:33:58 AM2/23/02
to
m...@home.net (Sky King) wrote in
<MPG.16e17569c...@news2.news.adelphia.net>:


>> Instead we have Jewish Tanks blowing up innocent people's homes and
>> killing
>schoolgirls and boys. We have Jewish soldiers using guns to fight rock
>throwers etc. Its not the Palestine authority that is attacking Israel
>but just some idiots. Lets say someone from Canada blew up one some of
>our people....would we then go there and kill innocent people?
>NO! We would just punish those responsible. >
>

IIRC,when Pancho Villa was causing problems in the SW United
States(Texas?),we invaded Mexico to put a stop to it. So there's a
historical precedent.And like Prez.Bush said,when a nation supports those
who commit terrorist acts,they become terrorists themselves.That's why we
went after the Taliban.

--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove X to contact me

cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:54:58 PM2/23/02
to
is that why Israeli jet fly for 30 minutes over their targets before the
bombing starts so that the innocent civilians might get away??? I've never
heard of Pal suicide bomber of giving Israeli civilians a half an hour
notice.

cb

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:57:10 PM2/23/02
to
you gotta be kidding. Pakistan a modern nation??? Ruled by dictator, 2
civilian wars going on there right now, people discriminated because they
are of different ethnicity, religion?? Don't sound like modern country to
me. And no I don't think it would be possible for so many Jews to be
gathered in one place w/out being attacked.
"Duke of URL" <macb...@kdsi.net> wrote in message
news:u7f6tca...@corp.supernews.com...
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