Depression
Mike
Buddy H.
>
> depression is the impression left by fear?!
I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that
this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
*my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
Thanks for your remarks.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Grace
> depression is the impression left by fear?!
So Mike - is the purpose of this proclamation to make people feel guilty
about being depressed? Maybe high blood pressure exists because one
doesn't work the steps properly. What about diabetes - guess its cuz they
didn't pray hard ewnough. Sheesh.
"The only way out is through."
-Robert Frost
Bill
> this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
> depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
> most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
> possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
> *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
> reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
> of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
> this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
Hi Buddy,
I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
who are battling clinical depression.
"As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But
"most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression
and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought
depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have
eschewed medical help.
IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and
irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor
games.
Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your
position a bit.
I wish you well,
Billb
7/9/79
Buddy H.
>
> In article <379FBBD2...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H."
> <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > depression is the impression left by fear?!
> >
> > I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that
> > this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
> > depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
> > most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
> > possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
> > *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
> > reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
> > of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
> > this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
>
> Hi Buddy,
Hi, Bill,
> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
> who are battling clinical depression.
Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to
whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a
disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying
that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying
that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my
post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to
understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a
better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the
darkness?
> "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But
> "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using
the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are
clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through
insight and understanding? What makes you think that? I have to
tell you that I've seen numerous lives saved and turned around
through the acquisition of insight. Tens of thousands of
psychologists work day and night giving genuine help to the people
who need it so much.
> I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression
> and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought
> depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have
> eschewed medical help.
Bill, I hope you're not suggesting that anything I said disparages
medical help. If so, could you please point out the exact passage
that troubles you?
> IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and
> irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor
> games.
Bill, how is this a game? I'm hurt that you would say such a
thing.
> Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
I've seen a few. Why do you ask, Bill?
> Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your
> position a bit.
Bill, I'm sure you didn't really mean to sound as patronizing as
you did in this post. Rethinking is always a good suggestion. I
hope you give it a try, IMHO.
> I wish you well,
I wish you well, too, Bill, IMHO.
> Billb
> 7/9/79
--
Regards,
Humble Buddy
Mike
>
> Mike wrote:
> >
> > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>
> I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that
> this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
> depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
> most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
> possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
> *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
> reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
> of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
> this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Buddy
you might gleam some info here...
http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/dep/
--
Mike
7-1-84
_____ http://welcome.to/AAkron
_______ recovering...@juno.com
_________ Today's Date: July 28, 1999
* Quote for the month:
".. I was painfully learning how not to communicate. No matter how
truthful the words of my message, there could be no deep
communication if what I said and did was colored by pride, arrogance,
intolerance, resentment, imprudence, or a desire for
personal acclaim.." -- Bill W., "Language of the Heart" (p. 246)
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
1. What is Alt.Recovery.AA?
Alt.Recovery.AA is a USENET newsgroup. Its purpose is to discuss
Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) and the A.A. program of recovery from
alcoholism.
Subject: Alt.Recovery.AA Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/alt-recovery/alcoholics-anonymous-faq.html
http://faqs.bilkent.edu.tr/faqs/alt-recovery/alcoholics-anonymous-faq/
http://saturn.las.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/alt-recovery.alcoholics-anonymous-faq.html
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/alt-recovery/alcoholics-anonymous-faq/faq.html
http://www.well.com/user/dhawk/AA.FAQ.html
_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________
Love to gossip or criticize?
Is it True?
Is it Kind?
Is it Necessary?
Mike
>
> Mike <Mi...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message news:379F9F...@SpamFree.com...
> > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>
> another clueless one liner.
>
> --
> Derek
your the clueless one....
Remember that we deal with alcohol—cunning, baffling, powerful! Without
help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power—that One
is God. May you find Him now!
Chapter 5
HOW IT WORKS p58-59
"Bigbbook"
Derek M.
Mike <Mi...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message news:379F9F...@SpamFree.com...
> depression is the impression left by fear?!
another clueless one liner.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
daniel
>your the clueless one....
>
>Remember that we deal with alcohol—cunning, baffling, powerful! Without
>help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power—that One
>is God. May you find Him now!
>
>Chapter 5
>
>HOW IT WORKS p58-59
>"Bigbbook"
I found God as i understand god from working the steps dilligently for
eight years. I still suffered from depression. Fortunately, God said,
"Quit being so arrogant and get thee to the antidepressants i have given
the world."
--
daniel
8-2-86
Mike Nantau
Bill <bi...@directlink.net> wrote in message
news:billb-28079...@235.232-239.128.68.63.in-addr.arpa...
> Hi Buddy,
>
> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
> who are battling clinical depression.
>
As someone who has had clinical depression for a number of years....I than
you for your observations Bill.....you showed more tact than I would have
shown in a response.....I guess people who don't know what clinical
depression is, should avoid sweeping generalizations....there is a hell of a
difference between a bout of depression, and clinical depression...
daniel
<mna...@home.com> wrote:
>....there is a hell of a
>difference between a bout of depression, and clinical depression...
I think 'hell' is an appropriate word to use to describe the difference
between the two.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Julie
>
>> depression is the impression left by fear?!
>
>about being depressed? Maybe high blood pressure exists because one
>doesn't work the steps properly. What about diabetes - guess its cuz they
>didn't pray hard ewnough. Sheesh.
>
>"The only way out is through."
>-Robert Frost
Thanks, Grace. For reminding me why I dumped this guy to the killfile. And why
I will continue to reach out to fellow drunks who suffer from clinical
depression/mental illness. I just got off the phone this morning with Anna
whose employee cannot get out of bed to come to work and has been sinking
downhill for the past 3 weeks. She is self-medicating with booze and drugs, but
given reports from her sister, she has a history of extreme mood swings
followed by crushing depression. The woman is hopelessly depressed and has a
boatload of meds at home. Anna wanted to know what to do, and I'm a licensed
social worker, so she called me.
Some in and out of AA would say, oh, just fire her lazy ass. That'll knock "the
blues" right out of her. When the big picture is seen, this is a pattern of
mental illness, not laziness or "fear". She's untreated, and needs to get help
for both issues. The woman's sister is on her way over to her house to take her
to her first inpatient admission for what is likely a severe depressive
episode, one of many. Anna could have just fired her. Instead she knew to call
someone for advice. I'm glad I was there, and I wish her employee all the best,
though it may not be her "bottom". She may end up having to get fired if she
can't get help. But I know why she's never been treated---it's "fear" of being
called "crazy" by her friends and family, having her kids taken from her by her
ex-husband, losing her job b/c she has an illness.
As Gary said, ignorance causes needless suffering. And it can kill. Severe
depression and drugs/booze are a particularly lethal combination.
I have an interview in Mobile next week as a therapist at a Partial
Hospitalization Program...trying to land a job before I move, if I move. So
many of us have both of these issues, and both need to be treated, and with
respect from our own recovering community if nowhere else. I think I'll have my
work cut out for me.
I'll get off the soap box now, but *please* folks, learn the signs of clinical
depression and don't cast off a pattern as just a "poor, me, pour me" pity
party...people die from this illness.
Julie
...the kingdom of heaven is within...
rosie@readandpost
that would not be the depression that gary is talking about!
IMO
--
read and post, everyday.........................
its a commitment to change!
rosie
Mike wrote in message <379F9F...@SpamFree.com>...
Mike
>
> >Mike <Mi...@SpamFree.com> wrote:
> >
> >> depression is the impression left by fear?!
> >
> >So Mike - is the purpose of this proclamation to make people feel guilty
> >about being depressed? Maybe high blood pressure exists because one
> >doesn't work the steps properly. What about diabetes - guess its cuz they
> >didn't pray hard ewnough. Sheesh.
> >
> >"The only way out is through."
> >-Robert Frost
>
> Thanks, Grace. For reminding me why I dumped this guy to the killfile.
>
> Julie
water seeks it's own level....
Let them remember that his drinking wrought all kinds of damage that may
take long to repair. If they sense these things, they will not take so
seriously his periods of crankiness, depression, or apathy, which will
disappear when there is tolerance, love, and spiritual understanding.
p127 bigbook
--
In some circumstances we have gone out deliberately to get drunk,
feeling ourselves justified by nervousness, anger, worry, depression,
jealousy or the like. p37 bigbook
--
We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn’t control
our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we
couldn’t make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of
fear, we were unhappy, we couldn’t seem to be of real help to other
people— p52 bigbook
--
His alcoholic problem was so complex and his depression so great, that
we felt his only hope would be through what we then called “moral
psychology”, and we doubted if even that would have any effect. THE
DOCTOR'S OPINION xxix
Tommy
wrote:
>
>Bill <bi...@directlink.net> wrote in message
>news:billb-28079...@235.232-239.128.68.63.in-addr.arpa...
>
>> Hi Buddy,
>>
>> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
>> who are battling clinical depression.
>>
>As someone who has had clinical depression for a number of years....I than
>you for your observations Bill.....you showed more tact than I would have
>shown in a response.....I guess people who don't know what clinical
>depression is, should avoid sweeping generalizations....there is a hell of a
>difference between a bout of depression, and clinical depression...
>
>
>
Granted there is a hell of a diff between 'D' & 'CD" but inside the
rooms of 'aa' meetings where people share their stories in a general
way one is bound to find generalizations aplenty about a variety
things. Thus, if a foul is called, it seems more to do with the
'sweeping' than the generalizing.
I wonder which is more difficult....to accept one needs more than
generalizations to right-side themselves or for those where
generalitions do the trick to accept others need more specific help.
To walk into a group of people and be told or discover one is
different (in regards to drinking) than 'normal' people is bad
enough/or/relief enough depending on the individual case. But, to find
out one is different to still another degree seems to be a tad too
much for some...(on both sides of the issue) and in the case of 'CD'
it can be tricky and/or/both tragic.
Tragic when one without any real understanding influences another to
discontinue or do without the outside help so that they may 'truly' be
one of us....equally tragic (imo) is the one suffering that refuses or
denies the need to continue or seek the outside help in order that
they may 'truly' be one of us.
Tricky in the sense that the one that seeks and uses the outside help
is closer to being 'truly' one of us than either of the above and too,
the one that realizes though they themselves don't need outside help
others might/do.
'Truly' & 'us' used in the context as "Useful & Whole."
Tommy
Tommy
<nob...@replay.com> wrote:
>In article <37a06aed...@news.thegrid.net>, svi...@thegrid.net (Tommy)
>wrote:
>
>> Granted there is a hell of a diff between 'D' & 'CD"
>
>No there isn't. It's a very broad and gradual scale of grays. It only
>becomes "clinical" when a clinic diagnoses it. But there is no real
>definitive test.
>
Well I ain't a doc ... of body or mind...as used in the context I was
reading there is a difference in the sense one requires outside help
and one requires only a little self-ajustment so to speak. As far as
tests go...I ain't up on the medical ... again it's a pretty good test
as far as it goes when working or attempting to apply the program and
one finds though it stops them from drinking (at least for awhile)
that they are still all fucked up (at least on the inside) that a
little outside help might be worth checking into.
I think to the individual suffering 'D' .... 'CD'....there is a big
difference...whether a clinic says so or not!
>> but inside the
>> rooms of 'aa' meetings where people share their stories in a general
>> way one is bound to find generalizations aplenty about a variety
>> things. Thus, if a foul is called, it seems more to do with the
>> 'sweeping' than the generalizing.
>
>Sure. While we all do it about so many things. "Ignorance". "Prejudice".
>Etc. Etc.
I see a big difference between my saying a through 4th & 5th step
helped me in regards to my depression and saying a 4th & 5th will help
everyone with their depression and nothing else is required. One being
a generalization about my experience and the other being a sweep...as
I read this thread.
>
>> I wonder which is more difficult....to accept one needs more than
>> generalizations to right-side themselves or for those where
>> generalitions do the trick to accept others need more specific help.
>
>In a way, that's the same difficulty from two vantage points - general
>acceptance.
>
Wonder....is a hard one to get exact.
Tommy
Mike Nantau
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-29079...@d1.dial-2.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
> >difference between a bout of depression, and clinical depression...
>
> between the two.
>
of taking them.....I have come to the conclusion that there is no need to
come off them anymore....my grandfather takes meds for CD, as does my uncle,
mother, brother and son.....good thing there is no genetic correlation or
we'd really be in trouble...and I agree, hell is the appropriate word.
Mike Nantau
[snip BB quotes that tried to explain something that was not even identified
when said BB was written....]
you are welcome to join the 20th or 21st century and all its medical
advancements any time....
Mike Nantau
news:37a06aed...@news.thegrid.net...
> generalizations to right-side themselves or for those where
> generalitions do the trick to accept others need more specific help.
I would think a balance of both is needed.
>
> To walk into a group of people and be told or discover one is
> different (in regards to drinking) than 'normal' people is bad
> enough/or/relief enough depending on the individual case. But, to find
> out one is different to still another degree seems to be a tad too
> much for some...(on both sides of the issue) and in the case of 'CD'
> it can be tricky and/or/both tragic.
Very true....this is the first time in over 11 years in the program that I
have actually come to understand the need for the meds....before that I
always got to a point where I thought I had "changed" enough to come off the
meds. Seems the logic in that is similar to believing it might be safe to
drink again....something I am familiar with.
daniel
<mna...@home.com> wrote:
It is amusing that Mike, in all his wonderful quoteology, forgot this one:
"But this does not mean we disregard human health measures. God has
abundently supplied the world with fine doctors, pshchologists and
practitioners of varoius kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health
problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves , that
their fellows may enjoy sound mind and bodies. Try to remember that
though God has wrought miracles amoung us, we should never belittle a good
doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indespensible in
treating a newcommer and follwing his case afterward."
--
daniel
8-2-86
Tommy
wrote:
Interesting...in a way. My ol'uncle, now deceased, suffered a severe
head injury that required him to take meds so he wouldn't pass out
and/or have seizures...funny thing is they actually worked....but
after awhile he didn't want to be different and would stop taking the
meds (even though no one knew he was taking them) and sure enough
there would be another incident and the cycle would start all over
again. He wasn't an alcoholic and didn't attend any programs....he
knew he was taking the meds and that alone was enough to make him
decide he was different and thus quit taking them.
Thus for those that are aware they have a problem I imagine the
responsibility is more in their hands than those making or not making
sweeping generalizations....kinda like becoming aware of being
alcoholic and doing something about it. I do think that this
generalization thing, sweeping or not, is one of the gray areas that
can be both benefical or harmful...kind of a price for not living in a
black & white world.
On the other hand playing doc when one isn't is the real danger and
even deadly on occasion when the sufferer plays patient to the non-doc
and follows instructions. It seems to be a combination deal....where
the non-doc and suffer both bear a certain amount of
responsibility...though unlikely to change as long as there are those
that want to know all and those that want to hear what they want to
hear. Which creates another responsible party....the 3rd party...the
one's of us that sit by and thru omission of not speaking up allow the
non-doc to practice his medicine and the sufferer to become his
patient ....which does a disservice to us all I suppose.
Tommy
Tommy
<nob...@replay.com> wrote:
>In article <37a09b15...@news.thegrid.net>, svi...@thegrid.net (Tommy)
>wrote:
>
>> Well I ain't a doc ... of body or mind...as used in the context I was
>> reading there is a difference in the sense one requires outside help
>> and one requires only a little self-ajustment so to speak. As far as
>> tests go...I ain't up on the medical ... again it's a pretty good test
>> as far as it goes when working or attempting to apply the program and
>> one finds though it stops them from drinking (at least for awhile)
>> that they are still all fucked up (at least on the inside) that a
>> little outside help might be worth checking into.
>
>Very well could be, I agree. And nothing necessarily "wrong" with that,
>IMO. But there's lots of room for those shades of gray and I usually don't
>like to jump at chemical solutions too readily. Medication is a wonderful
>thing, when truly needed. But within the medical/psychiatric professions,
>there's a lot of controversy about how much is being doled and on just what
>basis. Also, a moment could be well spent thinking about parmaceutical
>sales and just what Dr's get to bill for.
>
I'd agree as I have seen a couple actually head to the Doc for relief
(meds) merely because they have heard sweeping generalizations and
seem to think it's an easier softer way...guess that's the flip side
of the coin. People hearing what they want hear so they can do what
they want to do...regardless of where or who...as long as it appears
the easier way.
I would still suggest one consult a professional instead of merely
going along with an individual member...regardless of their individual
success or lack of. Sure there's some screwed up doc's but the odds
seem to point towards the docs....especially if the sufferer comes
clean with the doc and themselves.
I think it was in a Father Martin movie....that the suggestion was to
get free of alcohol 1st and then deal with whatever problems remain.
That seems like a sound suggestion for an alcoholic.
Tommy
Mike
>
>
>
> Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you?
> Mike, if he is such a person, is a fanatic or a person portraying Mike
> as a fanatic.
>
> Best,
> GaryE
who are you talking about?
Ed
daniel wrote:
> I found God as i understand god from working the steps dilligently for
> eight years. I still suffered from depression. Fortunately, God said,
> "Quit being so arrogant and get thee to the antidepressants i have given
> the world."
>
Big smile here! Good stuff. I happened to be graced with an "optimistic
DNA structure." When I quit boozing there was quite a bit of rage, not a
lot of depression. My wife is a different story. Prozac has been a great
help for her.
One thing that I have found disturbing is a kind of reality *haze* which permeates
my life. Even after being sober for awhile, I seem to react to disturbing situations
with a "whoa, dude" languidness. Kind of a prolonged "pink cloud." Maybe my
drinking *reality* was so harsh, so intense, that I'm still basking in the after glow....<g>
It has been explained to me that boredom in the newly "sober" is merely the
absence of sheer alcoholic terror.....
Regards:
Ed
>
> --
> daniel
> 8-2-86
--
Every time I see you falling, I get down on my knees and pray....
I'm waiting for that final moment, when you can see the words
that I can see....
New Order
daniel
>It has been explained to me that boredom in the newly "sober" is merely the
>absence of sheer alcoholic terror.....
>
>Regards:
>
>Ed
LOL. Was in my case . . .
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
virtu...@innocent.com (Virtualoso) wrote:
>What's more, findings continue to come in that prayer and meditation
>measurably, consistently and objectively enhance and increase many, many
>medical treatments. Sometimes dramaticly.
>
>Which came first: the egg of faith healing or the chicken of effective
>medication?
I don't know. For me, eating eggs and chicken provides just the right
amount of protein :)
--
daniel
8-2-86
Bill B.
<bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to
> whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a
> disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying
> that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying
> that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my
> post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to
> understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a
> better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the
> darkness?
Hi Buddy,
I quoted you in the last post, and said:
>
> > "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But
> > "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
That was the 'sweeping generalization".
> Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using
> the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are
> clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through
> insight and understanding?
What I think really doesn't matter, as I am in a public forum, am not a
doctor, and therefore do not dispense medical advice.
Perhaps I was strong in my reply to your post. I wrote as I did simply
because FAR too many alcoholics have died while in AA from well meaning
but misguided alkies who encouraged them to seek non-medical solutions to
real medical problems.
I always speak up when I hear people offering such insights.
Buddy, I do not disparage your motives, nor your spritual beliefs, I
simply ask that you consider that sometimes our words have effects far
beyond what we may have intended. Sometimes terrible effects.
and, I wish you well,
Bill B
7/9/79
Buddy H.
I didn't say anything about my spiritual beliefs. My post was
about the relationship between anxiety and depression that I think
I've observed in myself and in others. I also didn't say anything
about avoiding medical treatment. I think that anyone with a
depression that meets sufficient criteria should definitely seek
help, and I also believe that others should attempt to intervene
to obtain medical attention on their behalf if they are unable to
do so, which might very well include prescribed medication. So,
I'm still at a loss as to how either your or Nantau's post
actually relates to anything I wrote.
You've appointed yourself as Defender of the Dead, though I'm not
sure you would get my vote if an actual election were held. There
is a strong impetus among many people to deny that our own actions
may play a role in our mental health or mental illness in most
cases, perhaps a decisive role. People have taken extreme
examples like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and concluded that
everything is about "chemical imbalances." There's no evidence to
suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most
instances. This is a mythology that is adopted in part because
people want to be rid of feelings of guilt and shame, and they
don't know any other way of ridding themselves of those feelings.
One consequence of this mythology may very well be the deaths of
many, many people. No jury can be assembled to decide that case.
I apologize for being so sarcastic in my last post.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Buddy H.
If this continues, we may have to see if we can put it in the
FAQ. See, it's like this: Gary thinks that everybody that
disagrees with him is actually one or two people posting under a
multitude of pseudonyms -- Professor Moriarty of sorts. So,
you'll see him asking a lot of people whether they are Jeff or
Phil, two guys who post here from time to time. People who argue
with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny
ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary
is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably
not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Grace
>
> Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you?
> GaryE
>
Did you see that the Surgeon General is beginning a campaign to decrease
the prevalence of suicide? Suicide is a major public health problem and
depression is a primary cause of suicide. Of course who are you going to
listen to: the Surgeon General or some nitwit who doesn't seem capable of
expressing any thought not coined by another?
Mollypup
(finally!) last night!!!
I hope to be *seeing* you all real soon via computer, and get back to being a
regular araa-er.
Again, THANK YOU!!! :)
{{{{{{{{{{{araa}}}}}}}}}}}
-Sandy
Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
Remove NOSPAM to reply
Robert M Reid
been slumming it in Yahoo FOBillW chat for a while now, until I tried
"cybering", with confidence that exceeded my ability, and failed:)
Lurked here from time to time, but this thread, and your your post in
particular, has motivated a response Mike.
The Big Book contained the directions that turned my life around, but
to quote it here as you have done, seemingly as the ultimate
authority on depression, is a continuation of the hypocracy of Bill
Wilson, who forged a career out of the emerging recovery bandwaggon.
Did not take me long to discover the hypocracy behind the AA New
Testament, the 12X12, by following that word depression through the
index of "Pass It On." Bill was chasing the almighty $, telling the
world how to be "Happy, Joyous, and Free, while in a state of
suicidal depression himself. Why so many claim to want what Bill had
continues to astound me
Having been freed from decades of depression, after abandoning _all_
medication as a result of the steps, I am qualified to speak for
myself. I cannot prove that the 12 steps, and abandoning medication,
conquered depression, may be just a coincidence:)
Neither can my friend, GaryE, (great to see you still here Gary) prove
that chemical imballance _causes_ depression. Which came first, the
thought processes related to depression, or the body chemistry
associated with depression?
Arguably, the next generation of science will prove that the
prescription drug industry has an even more barbaric effect on the
world psyche, than those well meaning surgeons and their frontal
lobotomies.
Licking my wounds after venturing out of the "seasonless world"
financially and emotionally hurt by my ineptitude at "Loving," will be
interesting to see if depression, once again, gains dominance in my
own psyche. Am confident that if I continue with the BBp58/9
preconditions, and steps, it wont.
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
<Mi...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message
news:37A071...@SpamFree.com...
: Julie wrote:
: >
: > >Mike <Mi...@SpamFree.com> wrote:
: > >
: > >> depression is the impression left by fear?!
:
:
: > >
: > >So Mike - is the purpose of this proclamation to make people feel
guilty
: > >about being depressed? Maybe high blood pressure exists because
one
: > >doesn't work the steps properly. What about diabetes - guess its
cuz they
: > >didn't pray hard ewnough. Sheesh.
: > >
: > >"The only way out is through."
: > >-Robert Frost
: >
:
:
: > Thanks, Grace. For reminding me why I dumped this guy to the
killfile.
: >
: > Julie
:
:
:
:
: water seeks it's own level....
:
:
: Let them remember that his drinking wrought all kinds of damage that
may
: take long to repair. If they sense these things, they will not take
so
: seriously his periods of crankiness, depression, or apathy, which
will
: disappear when there is tolerance, love, and spiritual
understanding.
: p127 bigbook
:
: --
: In some circumstances we have gone out deliberately to get drunk,
: feeling ourselves justified by nervousness, anger, worry,
depression,
: jealousy or the like. p37 bigbook
:
: --
: We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't
control
: our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we
: couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were
full of
: fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other
: people- p52 bigbook
Tommy
<nob...@replay.com> wrote:
>
>And have you ever seen a seriously depressed person that's been undergoing
>wrong meds?
>
Though my experience is very limited...yes. Still remains that when or
what is important is the individual doing that which works for
them....some find it in the steps, some a combination of steps & meds,
some stictly meds, etc etc....hopefully they find their answer and not
just seep deeper into their hole.
I do believe this started out as the members with sweeping
generalizations causing harm.....or something alone those lines....and
it seems to me the parts of the puzzle include many different pieces
for a complete picture...hardcore rigid thumpers of my way or the
highway certainly don't help matters and as you point out docs that
don't know or care to know aren't much better. But also in the mix is
the sufferer too....willing to do almost anything for relief and at
the same time fighting the idea they even need relief. It's a
situation with too few solutions...enough so that when one is found
one would think those aware would rejoice instead of condemn...might
be some human nature deal??
Tommy
Jim
Virtualoso wrote in message ...
>In article <JJ4o3.9$g91....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Robert M Reid"
><robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>> The Big Book contained the directions that turned my life around...
>>
>>Bill was chasing the almighty $, telling the
>> world how to be "Happy, Joyous, and Free, while in a state of
>> suicidal depression himself. Why so many claim to want what Bill had
>> continues to astound me
>>
>> Having been freed from decades of depression, after abandoning _all_
>> medication as a result of the steps, I am qualified to speak for
>> interesting to see if depression, once again, gains dominance in my
>> own psyche. Am confident that if I continue with the BBp58/9
>> preconditions, and steps, it wont.
>
On a tape of Bill W., he mentions that Steps 5,6 and 7 in the 12x12
specifically describe how he treated his depression. It is intresting to
read those Steps with this insight.
Jimb
Mike Nantau
Buddy H. <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37A13CF7...@earthlink.net...
>
> I didn't say anything about my spiritual beliefs. My post was
> about the relationship between anxiety and depression that I think
> I've observed in myself and in others. I also didn't say anything
> about avoiding medical treatment. I think that anyone with a
> depression that meets sufficient criteria should definitely seek
> help, and I also believe that others should attempt to intervene
> to obtain medical attention on their behalf if they are unable to
> do so, which might very well include prescribed medication. So,
> I'm still at a loss as to how either your or Nantau's post
> actually relates to anything I wrote.
I don't believe I made any comments about spiritual belief, I've known for a
long time that we don't agree, and that's Jake with me. I agree with
everything you have stated above.
>
> You've appointed yourself as Defender of the Dead, though I'm not
> sure you would get my vote if an actual election were held. There
> is a strong impetus among many people to deny that our own actions
> may play a role in our mental health or mental illness in most
> cases, perhaps a decisive role.
I don't think i can disagree with you on that....I see a direct parallel
between this factor and victimization, though you've been around here long
enough to know what that attitude evoked as a response. I agree with you,
but it seems like a chicken/egg sorta situation, one of those grey
thingies...
People have taken extreme
> examples like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and concluded that
> everything is about "chemical imbalances."
That has been the catch phrase of the last quarter century...that is a very
real factor.
There's no evidence to
> suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most
> instances.
Agreed...but are they driven to the illness, or is the illness driven to
them? I would also ask the same question of alcoholism.
This is a mythology that is adopted in part because
> people want to be rid of feelings of guilt and shame, and they
> don't know any other way of ridding themselves of those feelings.
I'm not sure it all comes down to original sin, though I certainly concede
your point...because, if there is original sin, there has to be original
salvation...black and white...shit, there we goagain...I feel like a dog
wondering which part of the tree I want to piss on.
> One consequence of this mythology may very well be the deaths of
> many, many people. No jury can be assembled to decide that case.
C'mon Buddy, you know I hate sad endings.
Mike
>
> Mike wrote:
> >
> > Gary E wrote:
> >
> > > Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you?
> > > as a fanatic.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > GaryE
> >
> > who are you talking about?
>
> If this continues, we may have to see if we can put it in the
> FAQ. See, it's like this: Gary thinks that everybody that
> disagrees with him is actually one or two people posting under a
> multitude of pseudonyms -- Professor Moriarty of sorts. So,
> you'll see him asking a lot of people whether they are Jeff or
> Phil, two guys who post here from time to time. People who argue
> with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny
> ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary
> is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably
> not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either.
> --
> Regards,
> Buddy
thanks for the warning
--
Mike
7-1-84
Derek M.
we had this huge faith healing revival at the Norfolk scope a while back.
One guy who came to be healed ended up getting beaten by a mob of faithful
when they laid hands on him and then became enraged that he did not walk
away from his wheel chair.
Yes, faith, prayer and meditation have been proven to be effective in
healing the sick and injured. But how much of that is from a placebo
effect? How much of that is just the effect that a healthy positive outlook
has on ones mental and physical health?
Prayer, meditation and faith work in unison with medicine.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
Kimba
Missed you, Miss Sandy.
Love,
Kimba
On 29 Jul 1999 23:54:25 -0700, Mollypup <Mollypu...@webtv.net>
wrote:
I used to think that joy was the break between sorrows.
(I'd attribute this but I haven't found out who sang it yet)
Ed
"Buddy H." wrote:
> People who argue
> with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny
> ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary
> is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably
> not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either.
Well liked? Lot's of support? Is there a "Help Gary Fight the
Thumpers" foundation to which I can send a check? Buddy,
I enjoy you much. The above, however, reeks of the "us vs them"
mentality. I think Mike can handle himself. Hell, anybody that can
whip out 75 live web links in a few seconds possesses a few
formidable attributes...<g>
Now let's see, where did I put that "Save the Gar" headband??
Ed
>
> --
> Regards,
> Buddy
--
Every time I see you falling, I get down on my knee's and pray....
Julie
>running
>(finally!) last night!!!
>
>I hope to be *seeing* you all real soon via computer, and get back to being a
>regular araa-er.
>
>Again, THANK YOU!!! :)
>
>{{{{{{{{{{{araa}}}}}}}}}}}
>
>-Sandy
>
YIIIIIIPPEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
...the kingdom of heaven is within...
Grace
>
> The irony, of course, is that suicides are found in disproportionately
> higher numbers within certain segments, such as psychiatrists. And they are
> who prescribe anti-depressant meds.
>
> --
Can you back that satement up? Its my understanding that the groups at
risk are teenagers (especially gay teenagers) and Native Americans.
Grace
<Mollypu...@webtv.net> wrote:
> Hello! I just wanted to let you all know that I got the computer up and
running
> (finally!) last night!!!
>
((Sandy)) Great to hear from you!
Jerry M.
I thought it was dentists,
because....
(get yer groaners ready)
they're always so down in the mouth.
I'm goin' to my room now
Jerry M.
Grace wrote in message ...
Julie
>have actually come to understand the need for the meds....before that I
>always got to a point where I thought I had "changed" enough to come off the
>meds. Seems the logic in that is similar to believing it might be safe to
>drink again....something I am familiar with.
Right on, Mike..."Hey, I'm cured!" Last time I pulled that stunt I wound up in
the hospital for a week in a severe depressive episode. My doc told me to
consider that I'd had something akin to a stroke, that I had a family hx of it,
that it was chemical in nature, not curable, but highly treatable, that I'd
done nothing "wrong", and that I will need to take meds and monitor symptoms
for the rest of my life. He also said I'd feel considerably better and not like
dying if I did this, that I'd return to a normal level of functioning and that
I had a long and relatively happy life to look forward to. Unless, as they say,
I have other plans. ;-) So far, 2 1/2 years later, he's been absolutely right.
Glad you're here among the living, Mike,
Julie
Julie
>
>Ed
Better send me one GarMail, Ed...LOL
Roger Jackson
bi...@directlink.net (Bill) wrote:
> In article <379FBBD2...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H."
> <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>>
>> I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that
>> this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
>> depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
>> most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
>> possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
>> *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
>> reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
>> of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
>> this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
>
> Hi Buddy,
>
> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
> who are battling clinical depression.
>
> "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But
> "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
>
> I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression
> and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought
> depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have
> eschewed medical help.
>
> IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and
> irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor
> games.
>
> Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
>
> Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your
> position a bit.
>
> I wish you well,
>
> Billb
> 7/9/79
I try to keep to the clinical definition of depression when using the word.
Too many people think that you can beat this illness simply by "praying"
your way out of it or by applying massive doses of the Steps to it. When
that doesn't work, the impression can be that neither prayer nor the Steps
work. Those sorts of negative emotions can be death to a depressive.
Billb, you're right. Sweeping AA generalizations about depression can be
very harmful to recovering alcoholics living with clinical depression.
That's why I recommend to people suffering from the illness that they
refrain from sharing about it in meetings. If they share it with
individuals, they should only share with people they trust.
I didn't go to AA to treat my depression. I've got medical professionals for
that.
Roger
2/11/86
Roger Jackson
<bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>
>> In article <379FBBD2...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H."
>> <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>> >
>> > I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that
>> > this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all
>> > depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for
>> > most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a
>> > possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces
>> > *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on
>> > reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood
>> > of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to
>> > this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
>>
>> Hi Buddy,
>
> Hi, Bill,
>
>> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks
>> who are battling clinical depression.
>
> Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to
> whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a
> disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying
> that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying
> that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my
> post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to
> understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a
> better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the
> darkness?
>
>> "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But
>> "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
>
> Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using
> the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are
> clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through
> insight and understanding? What makes you think that? I have to
> tell you that I've seen numerous lives saved and turned around
> through the acquisition of insight. Tens of thousands of
> psychologists work day and night giving genuine help to the people
> who need it so much.
>
>> I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression
>> and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought
>> depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have
>> eschewed medical help.
>
> Bill, I hope you're not suggesting that anything I said disparages
> medical help. If so, could you please point out the exact passage
> that troubles you?
>
>> IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and
>> irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor
>> games.
>
> Bill, how is this a game? I'm hurt that you would say such a
> thing.
>
>> Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
>
> I've seen a few. Why do you ask, Bill?
>
>> Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your
>> position a bit.
>
> Bill, I'm sure you didn't really mean to sound as patronizing as
> you did in this post. Rethinking is always a good suggestion. I
> hope you give it a try, IMHO.
>
>> I wish you well,
>
> I wish you well, too, Bill, IMHO.
>
>> Billb
>> 7/9/79
I can share how I took it when I read it.
One of the things in AA that hurts some people is when a member drops a
slogan on them when they're in pain. My reaction to the statement was just
that, another throwaway slogan. My experience, both as an AA member and
someone who lives with depression, is that AA is the last place I want to go
to deal with what is a separate medical illness.
While not speaking for Bill, it seemed to me that the implication is that if
I'm depressed, I must be doing something wrong program-wise. I'm not saying
that's how you meant it, but that's the way it reads. Sometimes, the jargon
and slogans that are tossed around the fellowship can be infuriating to me.
When I read that, I said, "here we go again."
Again, I'm not saying that's what you meant, but to paraphrase, rethinking a
position might not apply to Bill.
Roger
homerr..
your, and mollypups picture on them???
homerr..
Mollypup wrote in message <7nri71$1r...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>Hello! I just wanted to let you all know that I got the computer up and
running
>(finally!) last night!!!
>
Roger Jackson
(daniel) wrote:
> In article <UwZn3.4602$F6.3...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, "Mike Nantau"
> <mna...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>....there is a hell of a
>>difference between a bout of depression, and clinical depression...
>
> I think 'hell' is an appropriate word to use to describe the difference
> between the two.
More precisely, there's a difference between feeling like shit and being
clinically depressed
daniel
<mroc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Too many people think that you can beat this illness simply by "praying"
>your way out of it or by applying massive doses of the Steps to it. When
>that doesn't work, the impression can be that neither prayer nor the Steps
>work.
This was true for me. Fortunately, i found that the steps and prayer
actually led to the proper treament of depression. It was my arrogance
(and to some degree the arrogance of others) in believing that prayer and
the steps should work for clinical depression that kept me from getting
the proper help sooner.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
<mroc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ya. When clinically depressed, i felt like shit all the time. It
became an identity and the spiritual part of my life was built around
maintaining my mood. What a lot of time i had when i didn't need to do
this anymore :)
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
>You're really pretty correct, I'd say. There's more than implications that
>our alcoholism is but a symptom and so depression and other bothersome
>sufferings can certainly be, too. It's outright stated. And it's true --
when it is.
I think this is a fundamental problem in the advice people give in AA.
I describe it as using the wrong tool for the right job, like using a
hammer to do the jop of a screw driver. In this case the tool isthe
notion that 'alcoholism is but a symptom.' And, as you say, it is
appropriate when it is appropriate. It is not when it is not. The person
posting the Big Book passages at this discussion of depression is a good
example of this kind of unskillful action. We have many sayings and
disciplines in AA. However, knowing what those 'tools' are is only half
of the work. In order to be skilful in our 12 step work, we need to know
not only what these various tools are, but what they are used for and
when they are best applied.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Roger Jackson
(daniel) wrote:
Exactly right, Daniel. I think that the "wisdom to know the difference" can
also apply to Step work. The AA program is a way of life, not an instant
cure-all for every problem we have. If I follow the way of life as best I
can, I can better deal with the challenges that come my (and every other
human being's) way.
As for my depression, it's an illness - not a symptom of anything. The
marked weight loss, sudden insomnia, and inability to concentrate, those
were symptoms of the illness.
Roger
Grace
> I just hate it when NG posts get into contests of "proving" things. I've
> got a pretty big library and if any given data doesn't happen to be at
> hand, I'm much too lazy to go digging for it because someone doesn't like
> the info and wants to check my homework.
>
> Can you back your statement up? I don't see any conflict with mine, which
> mentions certain segments, not just the one. Shrinks could very well hold
> the distinction along with gay teens and NA's.
>
> --
Fair enough. I was wondering if the myth of the mentally ill
psychiatristis just that, or if there is something to it.
daniel
<robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>Paradox? Was after a step 11 that I let go of faith in the medical
>professional drug pushers and _all_ their medication, got some clarity
>back, and overcame chronic depression.
I doubt very much that you suffered from clinical depression if all you
had to do was stop believing in your poor choices in the professionals you
went to. However, if you were taking your problems to "drug
pushers," perhaps you did well to be rid of them.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
<mroc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Exactly right, Daniel. I think that the "wisdom to know the difference" can
>also apply to Step work.
Absolutely. I have seen the results of both and am convinced that skill
is the difference. Skill is not limited to experience. Skill can simply
be the common sense and/or honesty that a newcomer exercises by not
playing doctor.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Jeff Tindall
> And Buddy is clearly
> (to me) an intellectual type person but I think he uses his fine
> intelligence to rationalize AA more than he needs to. IMO, of course.
Brother, you can take that one to the bank. He's not alone, more's the pity...
Cheers,
--Jeff
http://jeffrey.tindall.com/
daniel
>Sure. Which is why my post had a couple of other paragraphs that you've
>snipped and then restated.
I don't understand your response. I agreed with what you said, just
added some to it.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
<robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>lol Daniel.
>None so blind as those that will not see.
>The decisive factor in my recovery from depression is far more likely
>to have been the cessation of drugs, and the relative clarity of mind
>that followed.
Sorry you were under the care of people who didn't know what they were
doing. Sorry you are still an asshole.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Buddy H.
sending this, I would probably have delayed skewering your
friend. Unfortunate timing.
I wanted to make a response to this section:
Buddy wrote:
> There's no evidence to
> > suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most
> > instances.
Mike Nantau wrote:
> Agreed...but are they driven to the illness, or is the illness driven to
> them? I would also ask the same question of alcoholism.
There are problems in using the word 'illness' when talking about
psychology. First, we don't really understand very well how the
brain works, so we also don't understand exactly what is going on
when there is a problem. Diseases are defined by their cause,
primarily. Before we understood the germ theory, physical
diseases were defined by their symptoms: fevers, consumptions,
etc. Today, if someone becomes jaundiced, we can make a positive
determination of the particular hepatitis causing organism that
produced the disease. If someone has a fever, we can tell exactly
which bacterium or virus is causing it, usually. We can't do that
with mental illness.
Mental illness is defined by its symptoms, simply because we don't
understand the etiology. If we did understand the underlying
cause, it would be defined by its cause. When a person is
diagnosed as "depressed" or "drug dependent" he diagnosis is based
on the answers to particular questions about how the person
thinks, feels or appears. Most of these answers come from the
mentally ill person. If you ask me seven particular questions and
I answer yes to four of them, then, bingo! I "have depression."
There are two main problems with this type of diagnosis. One is
that it relies on self-reporting from a mentally ill person. The
other is that the diagnosis doesn't answer very many questions
about the disease. It doesn't tell us where it came from, what
caused, how to treat it, or even whether it is one thing or more
than one thing. It also doesn't tell us whether two people
presenting with the same symptoms have the same disease or two
completely different diseases. Treatment relies on trial and
error, and, even when successful, it is rarely unqualifiedly
successful.
Anxiety and depression is widespread. I doubt that there are more
than a very small percentage of people in AA who would not qualify
for a diagnosis of Major Depression at some time during their
life.
When people are told they have a "chemical imbalance" there are
certain benefits. But, there is also a real danger to this
terminology. People start to think that mental illness is like an
infection that can be cured with an antibiotic. Usually, that's
not the case. Moving out of mental illness almost always requires
both work and insight on the part of the patient. In attempting
to provide people with a value neutral explanation, we risk
throwing out the baby with he bath water. It's important to find
what I can do for my own mental health. Attempts to acquire
insight and to make changes in behavior have to accompany any
other efforts at treatment, I think.
So, who drives what, is a question that each person has to answer
for himself.
For myself, it has become clear to me that depression is secondary
to anxiety and that anxiety originates with my *wanting*. Anxiety
is fear, plain and simple. The term 'anxiety' would exclude fear
associated with an imminent danger, but it is fear nevertheless.
It is fear connected to expectations of wish fulfillment. Wanting
less, produces less fear, which produces less depression. This
may not be the total answer for everyone, but it's something that
can always help and can never hurt. The less I want for myself,
the more people love me, and, consequently, I get more. This is
the fundamental paradox of human society, one which most people
learn while they're growing up. I and my friends in AA are busy
learning it in our adulthood. Some people will never learn it,
I'm afraid.
This same cause (fear), I think, works differently in different
people. Some people become depressed in response to fear; others
live with an almost constant impulse to run away; still others
become hostile and violent. We have come to think of chronic
depression and chronic anxiety as illness, but we haven't yet come
to see chronic violence in this way. These widely different
responses may be manifestations of typical responses to threat in
nature: fight, flight, or play dead. But whereas in nature the
response ends when the stimulus ends, when the stimulus is
internal and persistent, the response simply continues and takes
on a life of its own. Thus we get crippling depression, anxiety
and violence.
The advantage of this understanding is that it now gives me
something that I can do. I can want less, or at least want less
for myself. Thus, the recommendation of a daily "program"
consisting of the Steps or something else that does the same sort
of thing.
To answer your question about alcoholism: I really do believe
that alcoholism is only a symptom. Alcoholism is simply
self-medication for an underlying illness. It may be one illness
or many illnesses. Some may require lifetime medication during
sobriety; others may not. It's a complicated problem that
requires professional care, mutual support groups, and a lot of
work and inevitable discomfort. I see my own recovery as a matter
of learning all the things that I wouldn't or couldn't learn when
I was growing up. I'm eternally grateful that I've been given
this second chance.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Robert M Reid
professional drug pushers and _all_ their medication, got some clarity
back, and overcame chronic depression.
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-30079...@d88.dial-2.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
: In article <7nsvjm$fef$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Roger
Jackson"
: <mroc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
: >Too many people think that you can beat this illness simply by
Robert M Reid
thought it was passing on the message of 12 simple steps, _without_
opinions and advice.
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-30079...@d88.dial-2.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
: In article
<virtualoso-ya024080...@news.earthlink.net>,
: virtu...@innocent.com (Virtualoso) wrote:
:
: >You're really pretty correct, I'd say. There's more than
implications that
: >our alcoholism is but a symptom and so depression and other
bothersome
: >sufferings can certainly be, too. It's outright stated. And it's
true --
: when it is.
:
: I think this is a fundamental problem in the advice people give in
AA.
: I describe it as using the wrong tool for the right job, like using
a
: hammer to do the jop of a screw driver. In this case the tool isthe
: notion that 'alcoholism is but a symptom.' And, as you say, it is
: appropriate when it is appropriate. It is not when it is not. The
person
: posting the Big Book passages at this discussion of depression is a
good
: example of this kind of unskillful action. We have many sayings and
: disciplines in AA. However, knowing what those 'tools' are is only
half
: of the work. In order to be skilful in our 12 step work, we need
to know
: not only what these various tools are, but what they are used for
and
: when they are best applied.
:
: --
: daniel
: 8-2-86
Robert M Reid
None so blind as those that will not see.
The decisive factor in my recovery from depression is far more likely
to have been the cessation of drugs, and the relative clarity of mind
know.
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-30079...@d179.dial-4.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
: In article <dxro3.18$tl1....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Robert M Reid"
: <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
:
: >Paradox? Was after a step 11 that I let go of faith in the medical
: >professional drug pushers and _all_ their medication, got some
clarity
: >back, and overcame chronic depression.
:
: I doubt very much that you suffered from clinical depression if
Robert M Reid
reading the Big Book than out in the Big world:)
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-30079...@d179.dial-4.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
: In article <mAro3.19$tl1....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Robert M Reid"
: <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
:
: >Since when has genuine 12 step work required skill daniel?
:
: Since when your only tool is a hammer, evey problem looks like a
nail.
: At any rate, the entire chapter called "Working With Others" is a
lesson
: in skill. The skill of how to approach alcoholics and the skill
required
: in how to help them. Try reading it sometime, but not before you
read
: Chapter 5, especially the part about the actor.
:
: --
: daniel
: 8-2-86
Derek M.
Jerry M. <uco...@foodswbell.net> wrote in message
news:pejo3.622$y82....@typhoon01.swbell.net...
> The unquenchable urge to pun:
>
> I thought it was dentists,
> because....
> (get yer groaners ready)
> they're always so down in the mouth.
> I'm goin' to my room now
> Jerry M.
I read in a psychology magazine in a dentists office that dentists were in
the high suicide bracket because of the stress of performing all those
multiple surgeries each day.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
ell Torero
hee hee, prozac may not be such a bad HP after all, easier to
rationalise than a doorknob, or basketball too:)
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-30079...@d46.dial-4.cmb.ma.ultra.net...
: In article <e2so3.22$tl1....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Robert M Reid"
: <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
:
: >lol Daniel.
: >None so blind as those that will not see.
: >The decisive factor in my recovery from depression is far more
likely
: >to have been the cessation of drugs, and the relative clarity of
mind
: >that followed.
:
: Sorry you were under the care of people who didn't know what they
Julie
>> mentions certain segments, not just the one. Shrinks could very well hold
>> the distinction along with gay teens and NA's.
>>
>> --
>Fair enough. I was wondering if the myth of the mentally ill
>psychiatristis just that, or if there is something to it.
>
>"The only way out is through."
>-Robert Frost
Hi Grace,
I tried looking it up online and the studies I found all cited gay teens,
Native Americans and Black males...nothing about professions per se. I'm
interested to know though...if you find anything, please post it, and I'll do
the same.
Mike Nantau
Buddy H. <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37A288B4...@earthlink.net...
> Thanks for such a pleasant post, Mike. Had I known you were
> sending this, I would probably have delayed skewering your
> friend. Unfortunate timing.
He he...Gary's a big boy, and so am I....and as far as swewer/skewee
goes...I think most of us get a balanced diet of each...I've seen what comes
around, go around in this ng...often.
> Buddy wrote:
> > There's no evidence to
> > > suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most
> > > instances.
>
> Mike Nantau wrote:
> > Agreed...but are they driven to the illness, or is the illness driven to
> > them? I would also ask the same question of alcoholism.
>
> There are problems in using the word 'illness' when talking about
> psychology. First, we don't really understand very well how the
> brain works, so we also don't understand exactly what is going on
> when there is a problem. Diseases are defined by their cause,
> primarily. Before we understood the germ theory, physical
> diseases were defined by their symptoms: fevers, consumptions,
> etc. Today, if someone becomes jaundiced, we can make a positive
> determination of the particular hepatitis causing organism that
> produced the disease. If someone has a fever, we can tell exactly
> which bacterium or virus is causing it, usually. We can't do that
> with mental illness.
True enough, as I said in an earlier post, there's little objective,
organic, repeatable diagnostics for much of the things we are talking about
here...its that gray area, where things are measured in degrees. I think
humans have difficulty with intangible criteria for the very reason that
there really is no generic model...things like trust, truth, honesty...the
stuff we measure life by, is different for each person...and because we
can't measure the objective level of one's truth and honesty, all claims of
meeting a criteria are suspect.
>
> Mental illness is defined by its symptoms, simply because we don't
> understand the etiology. If we did understand the underlying
> cause, it would be defined by its cause. When a person is
> diagnosed as "depressed" or "drug dependent" he diagnosis is based
> on the answers to particular questions about how the person
> thinks, feels or appears.
I understand the difficulty with delf disclosure and self diagnosis...it is
a difficult curve in the road to navigate...if there is severe illness
involved, it affects the reporting...it would seem to me that catching the
flags to mental illness are easier than eliminating the symptoms...bottom
line, to me, is that mental illness is about trust....trust that the patient
is telling the truth and being honest about how they feel. But, depending
on how ill they are, their own self reporting may or may not be
accurate....etc.
Most of these answers come from the
> mentally ill person. If you ask me seven particular questions and
> I answer yes to four of them, then, bingo! I "have depression."
I guess I have come to terms with my situation by looking at its longevity,
its cycle, and the fact that it is replicated, in a fashion, throught out my
family tree....doesn't give it a name necessarily, but it does make it more
real for me.
>
> There are two main problems with this type of diagnosis. One is
> that it relies on self-reporting from a mentally ill person. The
> other is that the diagnosis doesn't answer very many questions
> about the disease. It doesn't tell us where it came from, what
> caused, how to treat it, or even whether it is one thing or more
> than one thing. It also doesn't tell us whether two people
> presenting with the same symptoms have the same disease or two
> completely different diseases. Treatment relies on trial and
> error, and, even when successful, it is rarely unqualifiedly
> successful.
Very true...when I think of the multitude of treatments I have had over the
years, how their focus has changed, the different meds, sobriety, the
program, so many paths that have been walked...where I am today, I have to
wonder...Would I have got here anyway?...is it the meds? Was I honest about
what was going on, or did I take the long way home?
>
> Anxiety and depression is widespread. I doubt that there are more
> than a very small percentage of people in AA who would not qualify
> for a diagnosis of Major Depression at some time during their
> life.
I guess the time line is what I look at the most....shit, for the first 20
years of my life, I remember feeling some kind of weight...then the years of
using, the ups and downs...and now the clean years...and through it all,
this underlying pulse, a weighted pulse, sometimes just out of
earshot....this is not something that has come and gone...it has always been
there, for as long as I can remember...so what is it, a real bad case of the
fuckits, or an organic factor, something that has just been there from day
one....
>
> When people are told they have a "chemical imbalance" there are
> certain benefits. But, there is also a real danger to this
> terminology.
Yes I know, it causes the same sense of comfort that calling alcoholism a
disease, brings.
People start to think that mental illness is like an
> infection that can be cured with an antibiotic. Usually, that's
> not the case. Moving out of mental illness almost always requires
> both work and insight on the part of the patient.
I agree with you, I believe I have literally crawled at times, to achieve
the inches of grounded "self" that i have come to rely on.
In attempting
> to provide people with a value neutral explanation, we risk
> throwing out the baby with he bath water. It's important to find
> what I can do for my own mental health. Attempts to acquire
> insight and to make changes in behavior have to accompany any
> other efforts at treatment, I think.
I did not even begin to address long standing issues, personal integrity
issues within myself, until I realized that I wanted those changes to
happen...no matter what the therapy....i think I have to be willing to get
naked in the mirror....and accept it, embrace it, and do what it takes to
make it more personally attractive to me..
> For myself, it has become clear to me that depression is secondary
> to anxiety and that anxiety originates with my *wanting*. Anxiety
> is fear, plain and simple. The term 'anxiety' would exclude fear
> associated with an imminent danger, but it is fear nevertheless.
> It is fear connected to expectations of wish fulfillment.
That is too simplistic, to me....what if it is the body *wanting* for
something it does not have, and it seeks out the closest thing it can find
to replenish what it is short of. How would the intellect interpret these
"cravings"?...would the body not produce something that creates anxiety,
possibly fear? I really don't know, and i am not stating this to be
fact....I am simply wondering. Truth is, I have seen my body manifest
actual need thousands and thousands of times in my life...when i need food,
I get hungry, when I need drink, I get thirsty...I satisfy those signals by
giving the body what it needs...but these other fears and anxieties you
speak of...could they not be the minds enterpretation of a warning that
something is needed by the body, but there is no direct correlation with
anything the way there is with food and water...
Wanting
> less, produces less fear, which produces less depression. This
> may not be the total answer for everyone, but it's something that
> can always help and can never hurt.
To me that is resignation, the end of desire, personal limitations....now
both our perspectives are totally subjective.:-)
The less I want for myself,
> the more people love me, and, consequently, I get more.
I do not follow this logic.....these are value judgements, not objective at
all.
This is
> the fundamental paradox of human society, one which most people
> learn while they're growing up. I and my friends in AA are busy
> learning it in our adulthood. Some people will never learn it,
> I'm afraid.
Yes, no doubt.....but the same realizations are taking place in other camps,
it is not a direct product of AA, I believe it is a direct product of the
process that things like AA bring....but that subtle difference puts us
worlds apart in what we each see.
>
> This same cause (fear), I think, works differently in different
> people. Some people become depressed in response to fear; others
> live with an almost constant impulse to run away; still others
> become hostile and violent. We have come to think of chronic
> depression and chronic anxiety as illness, but we haven't yet come
> to see chronic violence in this way. These widely different
> responses may be manifestations of typical responses to threat in
> nature: fight, flight, or play dead. But whereas in nature the
> response ends when the stimulus ends, when the stimulus is
> internal and persistent, the response simply continues and takes
> on a life of its own. Thus we get crippling depression, anxiety
> and violence.
I'm sure there are at least a dozen years of biology and chemestry reading
that can explain all the ins and outs to me...but it takes me away from my
focus....as a human living in this reality I have defined, I tend not to get
too caught up in the objective evidence....the measurable stuff....cause
when all is said and done, individual existance is subjective,
totally.....my existance is the rhythm of my responses to the objective
evidence, it is where it takes me, not how...and how it feels and seems to
me, should be given credibility....it is very real to me.....once I realized
it was all circular anyway, I stopped worrying about it.
>
> The advantage of this understanding is that it now gives me
> something that I can do. I can want less, or at least want less
> for myself. Thus, the recommendation of a daily "program"
> consisting of the Steps or something else that does the same sort
> of thing.
Its still about hauling in the reins....and that tactic invariably has left
me chomping at the bit throughout my life...I can't agree that it is the
difference between more and less....in my life, its more about yes and no.
>
> To answer your question about alcoholism: I really do believe
> that alcoholism is only a symptom. Alcoholism is simply
> self-medication for an underlying illness. It may be one illness
> or many illnesses. Some may require lifetime medication during
> sobriety; others may not. It's a complicated problem that
> requires professional care, mutual support groups, and a lot of
> work and inevitable discomfort. I see my own recovery as a matter
> of learning all the things that I wouldn't or couldn't learn when
> I was growing up. I'm eternally grateful that I've been given
> this second chance.
Can't find much to disagree about here, Buddy...thanks for letting me vent
as well.
Becky L
>It's a friggin myth Julie. It just shows what people will grab ahold
>of if they think they can use it. Here is some data from the
>Assocation of Suicidology. See if you can find a statement about
>psychiatrists leading the statistics.
Not entirely a myth, Gar. By the way, hello. Hope you're well.
The last statistical breakdown I saw done by profession I believe was
published by the US Dept. of Labor in 70's. Don't know what's been
done since then. Haven't even looked. It showed psychiatrists had an
inordinately high rate of suicide, followed by dentists. The
explanation provided for the shrinks was akin to doctors avoiding
their own medical appointments--easier to see it in another than in
the self. You know, like the best builder in town--his own house is
falling part. For the dentists, it was reported the profession
required a high level of education and dedication and a desire to help
others, but that it's nearly universal for people to resent/hate
and/or fear their dentists, and apparently a dangerous association is
made between patient rejection and self worth. Wish I could remember
what the *lowest* rate of suicide was by a profession--I wanna go
train for it right now! :)
Here in the land where the skies often resemble cottage cheese dragged
behind a cement truck for 50 miles <thank you, Mr. Robbins>, the
suicide attempts raise abruptly during the first day or two of sunny
weather after a long gray spell. Something about a driving 40 degree
drizzle for 6 weeks makes feeling blue seem sorta natural, but when
that sun comes blazing out the contrast is suddenly extreme and some
feel they are too far cut off to try again.
My first sponsor said all feelings pass--that was good to be reminded
of. But it was also good he noticed a dangerous situation and
requested I go see a doctor about it. I was treated for clinical
depression for a year which included Zoloft, and it saved my life. I
was afraid to accept the medication, it was stygmatized in my mind. I
am very grateful now for the patience and care my doctor took to
explain it all to me, and showed me where at the UW Health Sciences
Library I could find out more. Since then I've felt more strongly
about people trying to practice medicine without a license. It's both
illegal and dangerous, at least in this country.
If clinical depression was situational, Gawd knows this last year
woulda brought it on. But no. Plenty of other shit, but not that. I
guess you could say I'm grateful, if not entirely pleased :|
Becky L 5/25/88
Western Washington
email: log...@earthlink.net
Kimba
wrote:
snip
>If clinical depression was situational, Gawd knows this last year
>woulda brought it on. But no. Plenty of other shit, but not that. I
>guess you could say I'm grateful, if not entirely pleased :|
>
{{{{{{{{{{{Becky}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Love,
Kimba
I used to think that joy was the break between sorrows.
(I'd attribute this but I haven't found out who sang it yet)
Becky L
(Kimba) wrote:
>{{{{{{{{{{{Becky}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Love to hear you play that violin :)
Kimba
wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 10:42:25 GMT, kimbagol...@worldnet.att.net
>(Kimba) wrote:
>
>>{{{{{{{{{{{Becky}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
>
>Love to hear you play that violin :)
>
It sounds a tad squeaky <g>
I saw the neighbors cats leaving town...
Tommy
snip...
>I'm glad it's proving its mettle with you. I too, if you can
>remember, have tried to take myself off the anti depressants because i
>don't like having to take regular medication. I'm sure that strong
>feeling I have goes back to some trait of manhood I was taught as a
>child and had reinforced in places like the military (or AA). I've
>taken myself off (on my own) three times over the last eight years
>because I wanted to believe that I only needed it for a little while
>(wonder why I didn't feel that way about booze?). The last time was
>the longest, about six months, and man did the shadow move in at about
>six months. I thought about suicide and you know I'm doing very well
>in practically all respects of my life, better than probably any time
>in my life. And I knew what was going on. My doctor, who gets pretty
>pissed when I do that, asked me again, to please call her when I
>decide to do these things. Just notify her, she said, with a bit of
>aggravation. She also reminded me that some people have to take
>medication regularly in order to have a chance at a reasonable life.
>Now she's a born again Christian but she understands that faith
>doesn't heal all things or all people. About two weeks later, the
>shadow left.....and I think I have accepted the verdict this time.
>
>Best,
>GaryE
This is an example of what I have observed....people don't want to be
different.
Some people are. Some need 'aa'. Some need meds. Some need both. Some
only one or the other.
When someone enters into the snake pit so to speak of 'aa' they are
then declaring themselves to be different and this then becomes a
resting place where upon being different is now looked upon as being
home with of like kind.
Then the discovery that they are different from even the different
causes even more calamity...for both those different and the different
from the different....a bi-product usually arises...you aren't one of
us....I'm not one of them.....Solution 'a' is pushed for problem 'b'
and solution 'a' is sought for problem 'b' and no solution results or
at best only a partial one.
Difference seems to be the real culprit!
It amazes me...doesn't surprise me ... that a thinking, educated,
intellectual person such as yourself Gary, with experience both in
'aa' and out of 'aa' falls into this. (personal yes, a put down no,
just frustration at my own lack of understanding) Even more amazing is
the fact you, yourself, are aware of this and even admit to it. (admit
to not wanting to take meds on a regular basis)
Makes me ponder the whole question ... I have lived with and live with
the 'a' for 'b' and 'b' seeking 'a' .... but when one shares of only
the doc and themself and still the solution is put to the
wayside...depression becomes only more hideous....go with the verdict,
go with the verdict!
Tommy
David M
>
>The last statistical breakdown I saw done by profession I believe was
>published by the US Dept. of Labor in 70's. Don't know what's been
>done since then. Haven't even looked. It showed psychiatrists had an
>inordinately high rate of suicide, followed by dentists.
>
On a somewhat less depressing note -- I used to be in the debt collection
business. The two professions most likely to incur uncollectable debts are
lawyers and ministers.
Becky L
>Doing very well Becky, thank you, and hope you are too.
Good to hear.
>Is it any wonder having gone to AA?
I know you're in the middle of making a point here about the program,
but the stygmatization I had regarding antidepressants predated my
arrival in the program. I think it's a larger social attitude, and
this is a situation where AA is no worse than any place else. If
demonization is desired, I would point the finger at a value system
built on a mistaken idea that illnesses of the mind and emotions,
alcoholism and other addictions included, are only spiritual and/or
moral ailments and there's something unacceptably "weak" about seeking
medical help for it. I got that idea LONG before I heard about any 12
step program.
I also do not doubt the psychiatric profession still has trouble in
regards to suicide rates by it's members. I remember a lawyer I
worked for--very ill for several reasons, wanted help, but was
terrified to seek therapy/medical help because of the lawyer's main
work--plaintiff medical and psychiatric malpractice. There was fear
if word got out, the lawyer's credibility would be undermined in the
courtroom. It's pretty darn bloodthirsty litigation--I agree it's
quite rational to have the concern if the lawyer wanted to continue
practicing in that specialty. The same problem exists for
psychiatrists. If a serious mental issue develops, who can the
psychiatrist see? Another psychiatrist. Word gets around. Whispers
are made to certification boards. Could affect professional
reputation. It HAS, in some situations. So many self-treat or keep
mum. Recipe for disaster.
Buddy H.
> Buddy H. <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > For myself, it has become clear to me that depression is secondary
As social animals, we act under certain constraints. One of these
is that we are obligated or acquire the ability to orchestrate a
subtle mix of cooperation and comptetion. This is certainly not
the only developmental flaw in acoholics, but it is an important
one. Alcoholics typically arrive at adulthood in a state of war
with the world, in some fashion or other, regardless of whether
they've had their first drink yet.
Having arrived at that point, it is difficult to see how to get
out of the situation. We usually don't even know that we're
pursuing a bad strtegy until realtively late in life. To find the
key, we need to trace back the sequence of cause and effect to a
point where we can actually make a change.
Wanting less doesn't mean giving up. It simply means being
restored to a state of balance that is in keeping with my nature
as a social animal, as a human being.
There is an irony in competition. Usually, the more we compete,
the more we get. However, when we compete too much or too
fiercely we drive away most offers of cooperation that other
people want to give us. The irony is that I tend to think that if
I become less selfish, it will mean that I'll get less; whereas,
in fact, I get more. I get less through taking and more from
being given things by the people I haven't scared away.
People here don't like the suggestion that depression is an appeal
for attention and recognition; yet, I suspect that that is exactly
what it is, in most cases. This sounds like a value judgment, but
it's only a factual description. I believe that the pain that I
feel during depression is being caused by my wanting, and that as
I learn to want less for myself and to be more helpful toward
others, my depression subsides over a period of a few months. I'm
sure this won't work in all cases, but, as I said before, it can't
hurt.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Buddy H.
>
> In article
> <78C2DE1248E71EAD.518D719D...@lp.airnews.net>,
> gar...@airmail.net (Gary E) wrote:
>
> > I suppose what I object to is not what may be a
> > statistic but how it is used...
> > I daresay made by someone who has another agenda.
> > You and I both know what you can do with statistics anyway, and in
> > this episode, it was an attempt to smear. *Control is important to
> > those who need other people's minds to survive themselves.* And while
> > these folks may not be David Koresh, it's only a matter of degree, not
> > of kind...
> >
> > And when you get questions and challenges, then then only (and I mean
> > only) response drops quickly to personal...
>
> Perfect demonstration of just that. If it's not the stats, then the
> accusations about wrong stats were...? Let's switch to suspicions cast
> about "agenda" then. And couple that with suppositions about character.
>
> Then it's no longer about some simple stats that someone jumped the gun on
> making a mistaken case about their wrongness. Simple diversion.
You really put that into words well. You seem like a sensible guy
and for that I feel sorry for you. You don't seem to realize that
you're operating in a world where Truth is entirely a matter of
who can be portrayed as an Innocent VVVictim, who can be portrayed
as an Evil PPPersecutor and who can be portrayed a Noble
RRRescuer. Correspondence to an objective reality and use of
logic are either subordinated or completely left out, as are
civility and personal integrity. Everything has to be sacrificed
to the ideology. This is all about the game of "Evil Thumpers
versus the Long-Suffering, Noble Freethinkers, didn't ya know.
I think perhaps if you developed fibromyalgia that more people
would listen to you.
You should write something for the FAQ. You're pretty good at
this.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Buddy H.
> > that alcoholism is only a symptom. Alcoholism is simply
> > self-medication for an underlying illness. It may be one illness
> > or many illnesses.
>
> some of the mental illness categories, alcoholism is present as high as
> 30%), there's another factor, too, which we see called the "allergy". The
> "overdosing" of it and some severe reactions.
>
> I've met a lot of alcoholics that don't like the actual drinks nor the
> drinking that are painfully aware and seriously disturbed about all the
> "side effects" of their drinking. It's just something in the inebriation
> that is compelling, even in those that don't necessarily feel any "craving"
> for the alcohol, itself, and despite adverse reactions.
I wouldn't argue with that, but the peculiar reaction to alcohol
that would be called an "allergy" doesn't come into play except
when it's ingested; whereas the predilection to self-medicate is
persistent and manifests itself in relapses, as well as in
secondary addictions like food, gambling, sex, spending, etc.,
etc., etc. As such I've always considered it relevant only to the
argument against attempting to moderate. The fundamental problem
of alcoholics seems to be mental, to me.
--
Regards,
Buddy
Buddy H.
> On a somewhat less depressing note -- I used to be in the debt collection
> business. The two professions most likely to incur uncollectable debts are
> lawyers and ministers.
That's interesting! What's the explanation for that?
--
Regards,
Buddy
David M
I don't know why for sure, but I would guess that one does it because they
have to and the other does it because they can.
Julie
>I've
>>taken myself off (on my own) three times over the last eight years
>>because I wanted to believe that I only needed it for a little while
>>(wonder why I didn't feel that way about booze?). The last time was
>>the longest, about six months, and man did the shadow move in at about
>>six months. I thought about suicide and you know I'm doing very well
>>in practically all respects of my life, better than probably any time
>>in my life. And I knew what was going on. My doctor, who gets pretty
>>pissed when I do that, asked me again, to please call her when I
>>decide to do these things. Just notify her, she said, with a bit of
>>aggravation. She also reminded me that some people have to take
>>medication regularly in order to have a chance at a reasonable life.
>>Now she's a born again Christian but she understands that faith
>>doesn't heal all things or all people. About two weeks later, the
>>shadow left.....and I think I have accepted the verdict this time.
>>
>>Best,
>>GaryE
Almost verbatim what I did, Gar, and I came to the same conclusion. I landed in
the hospital though b/c I was still in denial of the illness, and denial of
severity. I was doing mental health case mgmt with the chronically mentally ill
then, and thought, shit, what do *I* have to complain about?? At least I don't
get on the friggin' bus and see dead bodies pop out of doorways and alleys. I
completely minimized what was happening til I came home one night, unable to
stop crying for no friggin' reason, intrusive thoughts of pulling a trigger,
and nearly stopping to buy a gun after weeks of contemplating it. My housemate
had to call my doctor for me...I went inpatient for the first, and I hope only
time. Funny how ever since I got treatment, I don't do that anymore...
Glad you're among the living and well, Gar,
daniel
<bud...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This is all about the game of "Evil Thumpers
>versus the Long-Suffering, Noble Freethinkers, didn't ya know.
Clear as a bell. Good eye. Although, something tells me that if Gary
had his way, he'd punch you in it for pointing it out. So well he can
dish, but take . . . ?
--
daniel
8-2-86
Babyru...@webtv.net
and almost died a year ago because i was depressed an would not talk to
anybody including my sponsor. Now I take medications and talk my
problems out and do step work on them.
tommykins
that a lot of famous and quite happy people are afflicted with various
degrees of the dreaded depression. What does for me may not exactly suit
you, but definitely keeping a vigilant eye on the stepping stones of the
programme allow me to live in a more reasonable frame of mind (most of the
time). On the odd occasion I do often be ( do be) heard using the greek
version of the long and the short and the tall. heheh works for me ( tommy
k cheers love
--
tomm...@indigo.ie take out INSurance to reply
reading between the lines will give you narrow vision
<Babyru...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25766-37...@newsd-611.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Melia Tomas
That's great to hear!
Melia
Day 74
Mike Nantau
> >
>
> As social animals, we act under certain constraints. One of these
> is that we are obligated or acquire the ability to orchestrate a
> subtle mix of cooperation and comptetion. This is certainly not
> the only developmental flaw in acoholics, but it is an important
> one. Alcoholics typically arrive at adulthood in a state of war
> with the world, in some fashion or other, regardless of whether
> they've had their first drink yet.
That is a stereotype and an oversimplification, Buddy...I have known plenty
of alcoholics who fit the model you propose, and I have known a large number
who do not at all....and to label someone an alcoholic before their first
drink, is IMO, a severe form of emotional abuse...even if there is an
element, a single grain of truth in what you say, the whole concept of
prediagnostics based on genetics is just as fanatic and flawed as treating
the BB as scripture, which some do.
>
> Having arrived at that point, it is difficult to see how to get
> out of the situation. We usually don't even know that we're
> pursuing a bad strtegy until realtively late in life.
This goes with the whole "stinkin thinkin" attitude....I don't agree with
your "bad strategy" model...I see my life as a series of adjustments, fine
tuning...how can any strategy be bad if it has ultimately taken me to where
I am today? I see it as a process that worlks its own way with us...a
friend of mine once told me that we can't negotiate the price we pay for our
wisdom...the price is always the price...however, we can, and often do
negotiate the terms of the price...I have never believed in the "stinkin
thinkin, my addiction talking to me" notion...
>
> There is an irony in competition. Usually, the more we compete,
> the more we get. However, when we compete too much or too
> fiercely we drive away most offers of cooperation that other
> people want to give us. The irony is that I tend to think that if
> I become less selfish, it will mean that I'll get less; whereas,
> in fact, I get more. I get less through taking and more from
> being given things by the people I haven't scared away.
Do you really believe that, or is it the "right" thing to say these days.
People who are intimidated by my wanting everything I want out of life, are
generally not of much interest to me....My life is selfish, it is about me,
and my interaction with the people I love and meet...I want my life to be as
filled with self as possible...I believe self is good, healthy and critical
to happiness...perhaps the meek shall inherit the world...that's fine..I
want the toys...
>
> People here don't like the suggestion that depression is an appeal
> for attention and recognition; yet, I suspect that that is exactly
> what it is, in most cases. This sounds like a value judgment, but
> it's only a factual description.
Perhaps a factual description of what your sporatic episodes of what you
describe as tantrums, are....not my experience at all, and I'm not sure I'll
choose to have you paint me with the same brush....that has not been my
experience of depressive episodes.
I believe that the pain that I
> feel during depression is being caused by my wanting, and that as
> I learn to want less for myself and to be more helpful toward
> others, my depression subsides over a period of a few months. I'm
> sure this won't work in all cases, but, as I said before, it can't
> hurt.
It would seem to me that to have a personal motive in humility and servitude
sorta defeats the purpose, don't you think? Something like what the church
and politicians did with the words of Christ.
Melia Tomas
Mike Nantau wrote:
>
> Buddy H. <bud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:37A4F2C1...@earthlink.net...
> > >
> >
As social animals, we act under certain constraints. One of these is
that we are obligated or acquire the ability to orchestrate a
subtle mix of cooperation and completion. This is certainly not
the only developmental flaw in alcoholics, but it is an important
one. Alcoholics typically arrive at adulthood in a state of war
with the world, in some fashion or other, regardless of whether
they've had their first drink yet.
>
> That is a stereotype and an oversimplification, Buddy...I have known plenty of alcoholics who fit the model you propose, and I have known a large number who do not at all....and to label someone an alcoholic before their first drink, is IMO, a severe form of emotional abuse...even if there is an element, a single grain of truth in what you say, the whole concept of prediagnostics based on genetics is just as fanatic and flawed as treating the BB as scripture, which some do.
>
melia wrote:
Even labeling someone while their "bound and gagged" to alcohol can
cause problems. Looking back, I can remember people telling me, "No
matter how much you try, you'll never change, it's in your genes. Your
father was an alcoholic, your uncle was an alcoholic, etc., etc... Your
whole family ain't nothing but a bunch of alcoholics. But there's
nothing you can do about it, b/c it's just in your families genes."
Haaaaah! I know it's wrong to feel this way, but in this particular
case I think it ok, to say, "It feels GOOD to PROVE them wrong!" Maybe
it is in my genes, but even if it is, I've proved that I can do
something about it. Thanks AA.
However, looking back, I do admit that it did put a hampering on
delaying my recovery. I can remember many arguments between the husband
and me, when he was trying to make me stop drinking, where I stood firm,
saying it's a gene thing. Don't you know, I'll never be able to stop
drinking. I was born this way so just accept me for the drunk that I am.
I see now, how really bad off I was while drinking. It really does
affect one's way of thinking...lol.... I'm so thankful for finding out
more about AA and for knowing that God has never left my side.
Geeeesssh!!! You can tell I was out of commission in here yesterday.
Look how much I'm rambling on here...;-)
Thanks everyone.
Melia
Day 75
<snip>
Ted L.
>What I took away is that I am and was responsible
Hmmm, Gary, aren't you the one who says almost all our
actions are autonomic responses -- that we have
essentially no free will? If so, how can you say *you*
were responsible? -- "responsible" means you could have
acted differently. In minor details, perhaps, but truly
differently?
Ted L.
Benedictus, qui venit in nomine Domini.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Melia Tomas
> On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:47:56 GMT, Melia Tomas <leet...@home.com>
> wrote:
This hit home. My dad was a drunk. It was always in my mind, I mean
always, that since he was my dad, I would inevitably wind up being a
drunk. We didn't talk about genes then....too backwater, I guess. We
didn't talk about alcoholism. But I saw my dad and it was pathetic,
shameful, degrading and he was my dad. He came in drunk one night and
stood and pissed into my baby sister's crib on her. I didn't know at
the time how much that traumatized me...not until later.
>
I had a real underlying fear of being like that and I don't
understand the human brain enough to know whether I set myself up or
whether I was born to be that way. My dad was a tragic person who
wasted a good deal of his life and hurt others. I am happy that we
had a chance to reconcile when he sobered up for the last ten years of
his life.
I actually delivered his eulogy. He was a kind, gentle man who hurt a
lot of people....unnecessarily I think and that judgment applies to me
too.
>
I am not proud that I drank the way I did. No amount of AA massaging
removes the facts, just a little of the pain. What I took away is that
I am and was responsible and that is a sober thought. Dwelling on my
drunkenness is not sport for me, any more than dwelling on my dad's is.
I appreciate the fact that people do learn to laugh again or become a
bit more whole in AA, but I don't think the drunkalogue is a comedy
routine....nor do I think, based on the way I understand how the brain
works (from reinforcing past images again to keep memories alive), that
it is good, in the long run, to relive one's degradation over and over,
no matter who else it may 'help.' I am not a sacrificial lamb. I
turned down the siren to become one. My "wholeness" is not in that
direction.
>
As you can see, I still have live emotions in that area. I never
learned to become, what I call, numb, to my past. I don't live in it
anymore and I understand better what happened to me, and it doesn't
haunt me with shame or the like....that is, I feel reconciled to
it....but I don't want to push it because I know me a little bit. I
think that some people, though certainly not all, should sober up and go
home. That the rituals and mind control aspects of AA are not good, in
the long run, for some people. Again, not all, because I know that a
small minority of people who go to AA wind up going forever. They would
have you believe that is the model. I propose that it isn't.
>
> Best,
> GaryE
WoW! This is some pretty heavy stuff. You were indeed fortunate to be
able to reconcile with your dad while he was sober those last 10 years
of his life. I wasn't so fortunate. My mom was here one day, but gone
the next. Not a thing wrong with her. She was healthy, happy, enjoying
life, then booomm! An aneurism took her away from me 10 years ago. And
you know what? It's really hard sometimes, not letting emotions play
games with your brain. When I say this, for me, I mean: I've been
blessed with a certain amount of success in my life, (back then:
obtaining a G.E.D. diploma 10 yrs after I dropped out of H.S., and now:
75 days sobriety) Sometimes, instead of feeling good, I feel sad, just
b/c my mom ain't here to see that she my success and to know that she
was not a failure when it came to raising me...
I don't think any of us who now know the importance of sobriety now is
proud of the way we drank in the past, and as for being kind, gentle,
but hurting a lot of people, I think we've all been there too. Atleast I
know I was.
When someone shares their past with me, it makes me remember mine and
shows me that I am not alone or the only one who has these feelings.
Hearing share stories like yours Gar, helps me to stop hiding in a dark
closet. Thanks!
Melia
Day 75
ell Torero
unable to comprehend that one can continue the practice of step 12,
relative to working with others, and practicing the "principles"
without even belonging to, let alone attending, AA.
Ole Bill W certainly fine tuned a classic marketing plan for flogging
his "Cathedral spanning the four corners of the earth" didn't he;-)
gave his game away in the Big Book, with his step 3 prayer, (BB p63)
telling God what to do, not an action of complete surrender at all.
Further on, at the start of the chapter, "Working With Others" it is
even clearer that his primary purpose was to build an empire. Finding
a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, at the top of page 90, as
distinct from telling someone, face to face, "I took these 12 simple
steps and recovered". That was consolidated, when, despite opposition
from the "Good Oldtimers" (Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p321) the
traditions took the focus from the individual, and gave the
organisation priority. (Tradition One)
No wonder the poor buggers are too frightened to leave! Depressing,
isn't it;-)
--
Ell Torero AKA Bob
Carpe Diem
Gary E <gar...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:5B66C174D23CB7EE.5E6E0973...@lp.airnews.net
...
snip>
: I think that some people, though certainly not all, should sober up
:
Jim
Gary wrote-
He didn't have many original (read creative) thoughts on the matter, relying
on the Bible pretty much.
There are no original thoughts in the BB. It is a synthesis of knowledge
and experience.
For example all of the knowledge on alcoholism comes from 2 books-
1) Inebriety, its source, prevention and cure.
Charles Follen Palmer (1896)
2) The Common Sense of Drinking
Richard Peabody (1931)
Much of the thinking on self and it's manifestations comes from three
sources-
1) The Neurotic Personality of Our Time
Karen Horney (1937)
2) For Sinners Only
A.J. Russell (1931)
3) The Study of Interpersonal Relations
Harry Stack Sullivan
Amer. J. Sociology, Vol.42, July 1936, 884-861.
The process was that they read the available material of the times and
tested it with a simple question, "does it fit our experience." If it did,
it's in, no, it's out.
The Horney book is extremely interesting as she claims that culture is
the cause of much neurosis.
JImb
Reese
>I think Bill was no different than most. He saw Good through his own
>filters. He projected his version of Good outward. He didn't have
>many original (read creative) thoughts on the matter, relying on the
>Bible pretty much. His real insight was his generalization based on
>his own experience of what the characteristics of alcoholics are.
You're as wrong about this as everything else you're shooting off at
the mouth about. Bill got his ideas about the characteristics of
alkies from other people. Bill's own experience as alcoholic didn't
go beyond the experiences of the thousands on top of thousands of
alkies who came before or after him. He drew no more from his own
experience than any other alky draws from his own experience: But
Bill drew on the experience and knowledge of others, the accumulation
of the knowledge of others.
Get the basics down first, Gary. Until then, you're probably won't do
much more than you've been doing so far: self-indulgently jacking
your jaws.
Reese
Reese
> The Horney book is extremely interesting as she claims that culture is
>the cause of much neurosis.
No, she claims that basic anxiety is the source of neurosis. And this
anxiety appears long before the individual is aware of culture or
experiences any effects of culture. But neurosis manifests itself in
different ways in different cultures.
Reese
Oran
and even then the folks with the loudest, opinionated
voices declared that depression was simply self-anger and
self-pity. Further, they judged that antidepressant
medications were just another, more modern form of mind
altering substances that had no place in the regimen of
those who wished to recover from alcoholism.
Thanks goodness that as times change, some other things
change as well. Yes, I have read the posts here that still
maintain the traditional, closed stance toward drinking and
mental illness. But to my delight, I have also read posts
from those who have opened their thinking a bit, to agree
that maybe there is something more complicated to
depression than pity.
I and my two sisters all suffer from depression. Mine
began around 1958, when i was 8 years old, and it persists
to this day. I take the medications I am told to take and
I manage to get by.
When I drank, until I stopped six years ago, I drank for
fun, for happiness, to feel good, because i was addicted,
because i was lonely, and because i was sad. And I drank
for effect, one of which was to medicate my depression.
Now, today, we all know that that doesn't make much sense,
a depressed person hoping to feel better by taking a
depressant. But up to the end of it, there was always that
buzz i got, if only for a second or two, and which i paid
for later with hours of stupor and sadness.
I wanted to say thanks to some of you who are up to date
with the background of depression. It is really no small
amount of relief to me, to know that some people are
keeping up with the times.
For years I tried to explain my depression in meetings and
mailing lists, doing little good until i just didn't bother
anymore with explaining.
oran
tommykins
but the message is the same - feck off tthe eejits who know not, and know
not that they know not, but hurrah for us eejits who know not but know that
we know not. cheerio and godbless tommy k (not as depreesed as I used to
be mode
--
tomm...@indigo.ie take out INSurance to reply
reading between the lines will give you narrow vision
Oran <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote in message
news:9340777...@www.remarq.com...
FRANK M.
OF WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT OR ARE SOMEONE WHO HAS GONE OUT AND CAN'T GET
SEEM TO GET BACK AND VERY BITTER ABOUT ITnews:BCA94F9E812EC177.8893E055...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:37:37 +1000, "ell Torero"
> <robert_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Ole Bill W certainly fine tuned a classic marketing plan for flogging
> >his "Cathedral spanning the four corners of the earth" didn't he;-)
>
> filters. He projected his version of Good outward. He didn't have
> many original (read creative) thoughts on the matter, relying on the
> Bible pretty much. His real insight was his generalization based on
> his own experience of what the characteristics of alcoholics are.
> amazingly true to form, for the most part. Why that is, is anyone's
> guess. I suppose its because we lose our 'higher facilities' as the
> alcohol works more to anesthetize our reason and logic and the
> resulting discipline that it does our baser parts of the brain....the
> reptilian and the limbic areas. Perhaps they are more 'immune' to it
> given they deal at a 'survival' level.
>
> Certainly Bill had a grand plan, grandiose ideas. I think it's
> important to understand, at least a little, of the history and
> psychology of author's when reading them. The fact that Bill
> contributed most of his 'demise' to ego is no mystery then. He
> projects that to everyone else. Hell, anyone can identify in some way
> with egotism, it would be the odd ball who couldn't. That was his
> major chord because he thought it was his achilles. Making that
> concept akin to dogma is foolish and oversimplified, like most pat
> answers and prescriptions for human mental illness or mental maladies
> are.
>
> He was also an entrepreneur, a big picture man. The Doc could have
> never pulled this off. Few others could have. He was the driving
> force. And he was apparently committed to making something in his
> life a success, and in mystical applications he found the key he was
> looking for. In the universe of 'faith and mystical movements' he is
> one of thousands. And there are probably more Scientologists in the
> world than AAers. And on and on.
>
> If one is inside AA, it looms large. I think it has also had its day
> in the sun but will fade when alternatives, particularly more secular
> appearing ones not requiring lifetime membership gain more momentum.
> There will always be the cadre, the militant fanatics, and they will
> continue their domination of AA because most people aren't interested
> in what they really are after: control, influence, power. They have
> their disciples (although they would probably reject that term) who
> support them openly and then the rest just meander along trying to
> separate themselves from the fanatics and reactionaries in AA. This
> is not a new pattern. I think it was Hegel who observed that every
> 'organization' carries within the seeds of its own destruction.
>
> Challenges to authority always bring the fanatics to the fore, always.
> If there is no moderating influence, then they take over....always
> citing their justifiable authority in the literature for doing so. It
> happens in most movements, communism, fascism, any system where the
> individual is subordinate to the 'cause.' People may never fully
> appreciate what the Bill of Rights, almost an afterthought, did for
> them in this country.
>
> Best,
> GaryE
>
>
>
Derek M.
the eyes after a while. That's one of the reasons newbies are asked to read
a bit before posting. Try doing a search on "netiquette" you might find it
helpful.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
FRANK M. <fh...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:rqrmv8...@corp.supernews.com...