F-117A Shot Down
Unknown
How the hell did manage that?
rahmil
G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
David E. Powell
>I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
>G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
Certain features of the wreckage appeared to look like that, including the
black paint scheme, but some F-15s have similar paint jobs. The Dutch are
now saying it was an F-15, and I share your concern for the crew/pilot. It
could be an F-15. Let's keep the speculation to a minimum. Anyone could be
reading this.
God bless our troops and keep them safe, including this crew.
David Powell
Juha Veijalainen
(adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>
> How the hell did manage that?
Well, a F-117A is neither invincible nor invisible, despite some
enthusiastic claims. For example a BBC defense analyst said that on some
occasions British ships could detect it on radar from 150 km (or miles)
and that the Iraqis could sometimes detect them from 60 km. Depends of
course on the situation.
--
Juha Veijalainen, Helsinki, Finland, http://www.iki.fi/juhave/
Some random words: bomb,steganography,cryptography,reindeer
** Mielipiteet omiani ** Opinions personal, facts suspect **
David E. Powell
<922581167.29908.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>
>>How the hell did manage that?
>
SA-6 May be fired in visual mode, or perhaps it was a lucky grunt with an
SA-7 shoulder fired IR SAM.
>--
>
>That's all folks!
>John Kirkland | PGP RSA 0xA94DEA4F | I thought,
>Derby, England | PGP DH 0x823F7451 | therefore I was...
God bless our NATO troops and keep them safe.
David Powell
PS I agree with Andrew. Unless we are speaking of the F-117 in Naval Context
(Naval system [US/UK Radar, etc.] effectiveness regarding it, etc.)
David E. Powell
>Why ? He is criminal
With all due respect, take a look at Afghanistan and Chechnya before you say
that about him. Actually, like those in Chechnya fighting for the Russian
Federation, this Pilot was trying to end a divisive and bloody Civil War.
David Powell
God bless and protect our NATO troops.
>rahmil wrote in message <36fde...@news1.jps.net>...
>>I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh
my
>>G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
Bigner
"Earlier Dutch Defence Minister Frank de Grave said he had received a
report
that a U.S. Air Force F-15 had been shot down over Serbia."
"David E. Powell" wrote:
>
> rahmil wrote in message <36fde...@news1.jps.net>...
> >I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
> >G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
>
> Certain features of the wreckage appeared to look like that, including the
> black paint scheme, but some F-15s have similar paint jobs. The Dutch are
> now saying it was an F-15, and I share your concern for the crew/pilot. It
> could be an F-15. Let's keep the speculation to a minimum. Anyone could be
> reading this.
>
> God bless our troops and keep them safe, including this crew.
>
> David Powell
>
Joe Chevere
>
> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>
> How the hell did manage that?
Golden BB
Joe Chevere
Steve Hix
> "David E. Powell" wrote:
> >
> > rahmil wrote in message <36fde...@news1.jps.net>...
> > >I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
> > >G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
> >
> > Certain features of the wreckage appeared to look like that, including the
> > black paint scheme, but some F-15s have similar paint jobs. The Dutch are
> > now saying it was an F-15, and I share your concern for the crew/pilot. It
> > could be an F-15. Let's keep the speculation to a minimum. Anyone could be
> > reading this.
> >
>
> Common, guy - Pentagon admitted, that it was
> "super-puper-duper" F-117.
The next question being, what brought it down?
Paul Cassidy
seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
"Air combat...".
Juha Veijalainen wrote in message ...
>In article <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>, Adam Yoshida
>(adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
>> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>>
>> How the hell did manage that?
>
John Kirkland
>
>How the hell did manage that?
Luck, or LF (OTH) Radar.
Paul Cassidy
Not good!
Paul Cassidy wrote in message <7djsvb$b83f$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
>Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start
it
>seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
>"Air combat...".
>
>Juha Veijalainen wrote in message ...
>>In article <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>, Adam Yoshida
>>(adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
>>> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>>>
>>> How the hell did manage that?
>>
Brian Trosko
: Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start it
: seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
: "Air combat...".
The sawtooth edged surface is a dead giveaway, and the markings HO AF
82-806 match an F-117 out of Holliman.
Juha Veijalainen
> Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start it
> seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
> "Air combat...".
Sky TV from Britain just said that Italian government sources at Aviano
had confirmed that one F-117A did not return. Neither Nato nor Pentagon
have confirmed. An embarrassing leak...
Andrew C. Toppan
> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
Damnit, the F-117 is not a NAVAL aircraft, so this doesn't belong in
sci.military.NAVAL!
--
Andrew Toppan --- acto...@gwi.net --- "I speak only for myself"
US Naval & Shipbuilding Museum/USS Salem Online - http://www.uss-salem.org/
Naval History, World Navies Today, Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more
Nikola Stojanovic
rahmil wrote in message <36fde...@news1.jps.net>...
>I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
>G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
>Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
>>CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>>
Nikola Stojanovic
Paul Cassidy wrote in message <7djtc6$anvf$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
>OTOH, the tail numbers do match an F-117.
>
>Not good!
>
>
>Paul Cassidy wrote in message <7djsvb$b83f$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
>it
>>seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
>>"Air combat...".
>>
>>>In article <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>, Adam Yoshida
>>>(adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
>>>>
>>>> How the hell did manage that?
>>>
>>>enthusiastic claims. For example a BBC defense analyst said that on some
>>>occasions British ships could detect it on radar from 150 km (or miles)
>>>and that the Iraqis could sometimes detect them from 60 km. Depends of
>>>course on the situation.
>>>
>>>
Keith Willshaw
Juha Veijalainen wrote in message ...
>
>had confirmed that one F-117A did not return. Neither Nato nor Pentagon
>have confirmed. An embarrassing leak...
>--
Sigh what is it with people in this newsgroup tonight
Who are you hiding the data from if you don't leak
The Serbs are standing round looking the F***ing plane
burn they already know all about it. Holding back until
you inform relatives is sensible but NOT when its on CNN.
Keith
Krztalizer
the Golden BB.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Nikola Stojanovic wrote:
> Why ? He is criminal
Right, and the Serb army and police who get their kicks from slaughtering
unarmed civilians, including women and children, are a bunch of angels.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Velovich
>G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
What? you thought this would be bloodless??? Get a grip! Two rules apply
to war:
1) Men die.
2) Nobody can change Rule #1.
<*> V-Man
A Knight is sworn to Valor
His Heart knows only Virtue
His Blade defends the Weak
His Word speaks only Truth
His Wrath undoes the Wicked
Delete the ".CanDo" from my addy to reply!
Velovich
>reading this.
AOL news (ABC derived) quotes a defense official that an F-117 is missing.
Miroslav
about us, now you'll get what you wanted.
Paul Cassidy wrote:
>
> Not good!
>
--
Regards from Yugoslavia,
Miroslav - miro...@gamestats.com
Stanley
David E. Powell wrote:
> Nikola Stojanovic wrote in message <7djv67$9ik$1...@SOLAIR2.EUnet.yu>...
> >Why ? He is criminal
>
Nikola with all respect due you he was no more a criminal than the troops he was
attacking. As a veteran I believe most people fight for there country right or
wrong. The criminals are those politicians that send these young warriors were
they would not go themselves. I pray for peace so that the lives of civilians
and fighting men on both sides may be able to go home and watch their children
grow old.
--
Stanley
Vladimir Malukh
"David E. Powell" wrote:
>
> rahmil wrote in message <36fde...@news1.jps.net>...
> >I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
> >G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
>
> Certain features of the wreckage appeared to look like that, including the
> black paint scheme, but some F-15s have similar paint jobs. The Dutch are
> now saying it was an F-15, and I share your concern for the crew/pilot. It
> could be an F-15. Let's keep the speculation to a minimum. Anyone could be
> reading this.
>
Common, guy - Pentagon admitted, that it was
"super-puper-duper" F-117.
Vladimir Malukh
-----------------------------------------
ProPro Group http://www.propro.ru
----------------------------------------
Vladimir Malukh
"David E. Powell" wrote:
>
> Nikola Stojanovic wrote in message <7djv67$9ik$1...@SOLAIR2.EUnet.yu>...
> >Why ? He is criminal
>
> With all due respect, take a look at Afghanistan and Chechnya before you say
> that about him. Actually, like those in Chechnya fighting for the Russian
> Federation, this Pilot was trying to end a divisive and bloody Civil War.
>
Chechnya, Afganistan and Yugoslavia - all three are different matters.
1. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation, so russian government
is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
but still government has this right.
2. Soviet troops in Afganistan (as US in Vietnam) were invited
by local legal governement (no matter that they were actually
puppet governments), so from low point of view it was correct.
Again, I personally disagree with position of SU governemt
in Afganistan.
3. No one, who has a legal rights, invited NATO in Yogoslavia.
No one, who has a legal rights, ordered these strikes.
This is the case of pure agression, so pilot from
Ygoslavian side is just a criminal - ordninary
prisoner of war. Did you remebered Afganistan or
Chechnya or Vietnam when serbs MiGs were shot dow
days ago?
That's it.
Paul Cassidy
If you are Serbian, your media is state controlled. How do you explain
interviews with refugees crossing the border into the surrounding countries
who are all saying about Serb atrocities.
No one is saying that all Serbs are bad, or that all are involved.
Many Germans didn't know about the holocaust. But don't close your eyes just
because you TV station isn't agreeing with the rest of the worlds press,
Nato and the UN.
Miroslav wrote in message <36FDA25B...@gamestats.com>...
Vladimir Malukh
Paul Cassidy wrote:
> If you are Serbian, your media is state controlled. How do you explain
> interviews with refugees crossing the border into the surrounding countries
> who are all saying about Serb atrocities.
So, NATO strikes have reduced the refugee number?
> No one is saying that all Serbs are bad, or that all are involved.
>
> Many Germans didn't know about the holocaust.
Still, most of them used to belive that germans are
superior nation, and this believment made possible
all those horrible things.
> But don't close your eyes just
> because you TV station isn't agreeing with the rest of the worlds press,
> Nato and the UN.
Hey, what the f..k you are talking about? The rest of the world?
What about Russia, China and India? It's almost half of
world population. What about almost half of US sitizens?
Vladimir Malukh
Velovich
Fine. Fact is, your nation signed off on teh UN Charter. In taht document,
you agreed to NOT commit crimes like this. What, you guys just liars???
Keith Willshaw
Jeff Rankin-Lowe wrote in message <36FD98E7...@on.aibn.com>...
>
>Right, and the Serb army and police who get their kicks from slaughtering
>unarmed civilians, including women and children, are a bunch of angels.
>
>Jeff Rankin-Lowe
>
Jeff please replace the word Angels with Targets
Keith
Andrew P Pavacic
David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> It
>could be an F-15. Let's keep the speculation to a minimum.
It could be a UFO from Alpha Centauri.
> Anyone could be
>reading this.
Elvis could be reading this.
-Andrew Pavacic
José Herculano
I'd also be sad if Milosevish was my ruler and if I had to live in
yugoslavia. ;-)
José Herculano
tj1...@my-dejanews.com
"Paul Cassidy" <paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start it
> seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
> "Air combat...".
>
AAARGH! Not another one!!! All the markings are correct. The "Air Combat.."
thing is the sheild of the USAF Air Combat Command. The F-117A Nighthawk
aircraft operated by the 49th Fighter Wing - Holloman, AFB, New Mexico.
(currently operating a number of F-117s from Aviano, Italy). Within the 49th
OG these are operated by the 7th/8th/9th Fighter Squadrons. In some light
conditions the special paint can look a grey colour. This can be seen on
U-2,SR- 71s. The greying of the paint on the film footage was caused by ash
debris covering the wreckage. F-117s during their testing phase flew in both
desert camouflage and a light grey paint scheme. Aircraft number 780 has been
seen in these schemes. TJ.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Paul Cassidy
tj1...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7dlant$vip$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7djsvb$b83f$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>,
> "Paul Cassidy" <paul.c...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start
it
>> seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the
words
>> "Air combat...".
>>
>
>AAARGH! Not another one!!! All the markings are correct. The "Air Combat.."
>thing is the sheild of the USAF Air Combat Command. The F-117A Nighthawk
>aircraft operated by the 49th Fighter Wing - Holloman, AFB, New Mexico.
>(currently operating a number of F-117s from Aviano, Italy). Within the
49th
>OG these are operated by the 7th/8th/9th Fighter Squadrons. In some light
>conditions the special paint can look a grey colour. This can be seen on
>U-2,SR- 71s. The greying of the paint on the film footage was caused by ash
>debris covering the wreckage. F-117s during their testing phase flew in
both
>desert camouflage and a light grey paint scheme. Aircraft number 780 has
been
>seen in these schemes. TJ.
>
The post was actually made very early on, before it was confirmed. I did
actually post a retraction later, but I take your point! :)
cool_geek
>
> I saw it! There was wreckage! It was undoubtedly that of a Nighthawk! Oh my
> G-D, this is terrible. I hope the pilot's ok. Oh G-D!
> >
Stanley
Vladimir Malukh wrote:
As far as the media goes both sides spin their on governments lies until forced
into telling the truth. This is the way it has been in every war, cold or hot.
The trouble with this one is the US has a leader that has proven that he is
incapable of telling the truth to his on people about anything.
It is true that only 53% of the US are for the bombing, but don't mistake this as
not backing the troops. We all understand that the sailors, soldiers and airman
of any country have to go were they are sent no matter how much they agree or
disagree with their mission. Remember it is the politicians that start the wars
and sit safely at home while the youth and sometimes naive youth are forced to
fight and die in their wars for them.
Lets be thankful that the pilot of the F-117 bomber is safe and hope that his
mission was aborted before it killed anyone.
Stanley
Robert Williams
Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
>CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>
>How the hell did manage that?
May not have been shot down, but crashed in some way.
Rob
gws
Grey Satterfield
Vladimir Malukh wrote in message <36FDD0CA...@propro.ru>...
>
>
>"David E. Powell" wrote:
>>
>> Nikola Stojanovic wrote in message
<7djv67$9ik$1...@SOLAIR2.EUnet.yu>...
>> >Why ? He is criminal
>>
>> With all due respect, take a look at Afghanistan and Chechnya
before you say
>> that about him. Actually, like those in Chechnya fighting for
the Russian
>> Federation, this Pilot was trying to end a divisive and bloody
Civil War.
>>
>
>Chechnya, Afganistan and Yugoslavia - all three are different
matters.
>
>1. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation, so russian government
>is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
>there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
>but still government has this right.
>
>2. Soviet troops in Afganistan (as US in Vietnam) were invited
>by local legal governement (no matter that they were actually
>puppet governments), so from low point of view it was correct.
>Again, I personally disagree with position of SU governemt
>in Afganistan.
>
>3. No one, who has a legal rights, invited NATO in Yogoslavia.
Patrick Pemberton
Vladimir Malukh banged on the keyboard to say:
>1. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation, so russian government
>is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
>there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
>but still government has this right.
Oh I don't know...we could get into a Lockian discussion of the consent of
the governed...otherwise we here might still be British, and only bathe once
a week <g>
-Patrick
54 days left and counting...
me...@ibm.net
>
> Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
> >CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> >
> >How the hell did manage that?
>
>
Not everything is radar guided. At if it was low enough a ZSU-23-4 can
pump
enough lead into the air to down one.
Shea
me...@ibm.net
>
> Chechnya, Afganistan and Yugoslavia - all three are different matters.
>
> is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
> there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
> but still government has this right.
No government is allowed by law to slaughter its citizens, period.
Any government that suppresses those very citizens a redress of
grievances should expect an uprising and by natural law they
(the citizens) have _that_ right.
Shea
Charles Booher
>CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>
>How the hell did manage that?
It probably just broke. They are very delicate airplanes.
They should be using Strike Eagles.
The Incredible Goofball of War
juh...@zdnetmail.com (Juha Veijalainen) wrote:
> In article <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>, Adam Yoshida
> (adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
> > CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> >
> > How the hell did manage that?
>
> enthusiastic claims. For example a BBC defense analyst said that on some
> occasions British ships could detect it on radar from 150 km (or miles)
> and that the Iraqis could sometimes detect them from 60 km. Depends of
> course on the situation.
>
> --
> Juha Veijalainen, Helsinki, Finland, http://www.iki.fi/juhave/
> Some random words: bomb,steganography,cryptography,reindeer
> ** Mielipiteet omiani ** Opinions personal, facts suspect **
>
Stealthy aircraft are detectable using long-wavelength radar. Of course, long
wavelengths introduce large uncertainties as to the aircraft's actual
position. This can problem can be corrected using interferometry, which takes
a couple of radar sites separated by some distance illuminating the same
aircraft. Are the Yugos this advanced? Who knows?
Maybe the AA crews made visual contact, in which case it's as vulnerable as
any other plane. The shot may well have been a golden BB too.
--
The Incredible Goofball of War
Spam away. I promise never to check this e-mail address.
cxvkl;dfsioperwq-45iop4trjkl;rgsm,./sdm,./sdv
wrote:
>
>Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
>>CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
>>
>>How the hell did manage that?
>
>May not have been shot down, but crashed in some way.
>
>Rob
Ditto that. Rumors are a computer screwup in the Pentagon
was noticed at the same time. Maybe related to the planes remote
destruct option... who knows.
Chuang Shyue Chou
> Ditto that. Rumors are a computer screwup in the Pentagon
> was noticed at the same time. Maybe related to the planes remote
> destruct option... who knows.
IT FELL FROM the sky like a meteor, this piece of 21st- century state-of-the-art technology, an invisible jet from New Mexico crashing into the carefully ploughed fields of a quiet village whose peasants pray in a delicate, domed, Baroque church and keep armies of pigeons in their cottage roofs.
Keith Willshaw
Joe Chevere wrote in message <36FDAC...@silverlink.net>...
>The networks showed a Pentagon press conference. The pilot was rescued!
Gents please trim the newsgroups in your postings
I've already had to bail from R.A.M I'd hate to lose this one
as well
Keith
Anthony de Vries
me...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> John Kirkland wrote:
> >
> > Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
> > >CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> > >
> > >How the hell did manage that?
> >
> > Luck, or LF (OTH) Radar.
> >
>
> Not everything is radar guided. At if it was low enough a ZSU-23-4 can
> pump
> enough lead into the air to down one.
The ZSU-23 is radar guided... :-)
Anthony.
ANDREW BREEN
During the second (or third, one loses count...) Gulf War, RN Type 42
destroyers were regularly finding their fire-control radars locking
onto F117s which were where they shouldn't have been. Comments from
out of Devonport (and no, I'm _not_ going to name sources in detail here!)
indicate that they could track them pretty reliably.
I can't recall off-hand whether the radar on all of the T42s had been
upgraded - if not, it means that F117s can be tracked with 1950s radar.
If so, you need a good late-80s set.
So the F117s are certainly not radar-invisible - a lower RCS than most
aeroplanes, certainly, but not invisible to a decent radar set with
a competant operator.
Hey, we've actually got some naval content in this thread!
--
Andy Breen ~ PPARC Advanced Research Fellow
Solar Physics Group
University of Wales, Aberystwyth
My posting, my opinions......
gws
news:O3r68#Ve#GA....@nih2naaa.prod2.compuserve.com...
>
> Patrick Pemberton wrote in message
<7dm4qm$238$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...
> >Oh I don't know...we could get into a Lockian discussion of
the consent of
> >the governed...otherwise we here might still be British, and
only bathe
> once
> >a week <g>
>
>
> Once a year whether I need it or not <grin>
I had heard we Murkins called about everything but "effete" until
Keith laid that one on us, too. The OED definition for "Effete"
in the sense I think Keith used it is: "fig Of persons in an
intellectual sense, of systems, etc.: That has exhausted its
vigour and energy; incapable of efficient action. Also, of
persons: weak, ineffectual; degenerate. More recently,
effeminate." Is that us? Just because we bathe? God, I hope
not! (>:
Grey Satterfield
wolfs...@my-dejanews.com
jack...@erols.com (cxvkl;dfsioperwq-45iop4trjkl;rgsm,./sdm,./sdv) wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:05:08 +0100, "Robert Williams" <Rs...@tesco.net>
>
> >
> >Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
> >>CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> >>
> >>How the hell did manage that?
> >
> >
> >Rob
>
> was noticed at the same time. Maybe related to the planes remote
> destruct option... who knows.
>
>
There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. They've
lost six of 'em to crashes already. (Not coun'ting the test prototype that
crashed a while back in Nevada)
WolfShadow
Strike from the shadows!
wolfs...@my-dejanews.com
Anthony de Vries <Ant...@arago.utwente.nl> wrote:
>
>
> me...@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
> > > >CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> > > >
> > > >How the hell did manage that?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Not everything is radar guided. At if it was low enough a ZSU-23-4 can
> > pump
> > enough lead into the air to down one.
>
> The ZSU-23 is radar guided... :-)
>
>
Electro-Optical and Prob Night-Vision back ups to the radar...
If you can see it, most of the time you can shoot it down...
Lloyd R. Parker
:
:
: Paul Cassidy wrote:
:
: > If you are Serbian, your media is state controlled. How do you explain
: > interviews with refugees crossing the border into the surrounding countries
: > who are all saying about Serb atrocities.
:
: So, NATO strikes have reduced the refugee number?
NATO isn't striking Kosovo yet.
:
: > No one is saying that all Serbs are bad, or that all are involved.
: >
: > Many Germans didn't know about the holocaust.
:
: Still, most of them used to belive that germans are
: superior nation, and this believment made possible
: all those horrible things.
:
: > But don't close your eyes just
: > because you TV station isn't agreeing with the rest of the worlds press,
: > Nato and the UN.
:
: Hey, what the f..k you are talking about? The rest of the world?
: What about Russia, China and India? It's almost half of
: world population. What about almost half of US sitizens?
:
None of which had news crews there; 2 of which don't have independent news
media at all.
--TIGGER--
Oh, and I have an accurat count so you can correct those numbers also.
-Kevin Helm
------------------------------Kevin Helm------------------------------
| Homepage: http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm |
_______ F-117A Site: http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Shabah.html ______
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 wolfs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. They've
> lost six of 'em to crashes already. (Not coun'ting the test prototype that
> crashed a while back in Nevada)
>
Patrick Pemberton
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 wolfs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Electro-Optical and Prob Night-Vision back ups to the radar...
>
> If you can see it, most of the time you can shoot it down...
Why is it so hard to believe that they saw the silly thing on radar and
knocked it down? Without tomohawks and HARM's knocking out everything
radiating this time, it was a far better test, and maybe the air scout's
toy just didn't work as well as they want you to believe. After all, most
of their toys are still too expensive to risk in combat (gasp). What an
excuse. I just want them to admit that illiterate farmers with older
equipment took out their silver bullet.
John Lansford
>Vladimir Malukh (b...@propro.ru) wrote:
>:
>:
>: Paul Cassidy wrote:
>:
>: > If you are Serbian, your media is state controlled. How do you explain
>: > interviews with refugees crossing the border into the surrounding countries
>: > who are all saying about Serb atrocities.
>:
>: So, NATO strikes have reduced the refugee number?
>
>
>NATO isn't striking Kosovo yet.
They aren't? Who has been dropping all those bombs around Pristina,
then?
>:
John Lansford
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
me...@ibm.net
>
> me...@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> > John Kirkland wrote:
> > >
> > > Adam Yoshida wrote in message <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>...
> > > >CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> > > >
> > > >How the hell did manage that?
> > >
> > > Luck, or LF (OTH) Radar.
> > >
> >
> > Not everything is radar guided. At if it was low enough a ZSU-23-4 can
> > pump
> > enough lead into the air to down one.
>
> The ZSU-23 is radar guided... :-)
And (gasp) it can also be fired without it. Iron sights and the
Mk I eyeball.
Shea
Thomas Schoene
42
> destroyers were regularly finding their fire-control radars locking
> onto F117s which were where they shouldn't have been. Comments from
> out of Devonport (and no, I'm _not_ going to name sources in detail
here!)
> indicate that they could track them pretty reliably.
> I can't recall off-hand whether the radar on all of the T42s had
been
> upgraded - if not, it means that F117s can be tracked with 1950s
radar.
> If so, you need a good late-80s set.
At least one ship doing this was HMS Gloucester, which had Type 1022,
your late-80s radar. She was getting tracks at 40-80nm, and passing
them to Type 909 fire control radars at about 10nm. (Pieced together
from a couple of different Norman Friedman books.)
The key point is that Type 1022 is L-band, and thus has a very long
wavelength. It's seeing the entire airframe as a dipole, not just
any one facet, which defeats much of the shaping effort. The
downside is that it's not that precise. In a ship with an integrated
combat system it's relatively easy to pass the data from the
low-frequency search set to a higher frequency tracking set. It's
possible to do the same on land, but it usually takes more work.
(especially when your equivalent of a ship's Combat Information
Center has just been hit by a brace of 2000-lb penetrating LGBs.)
> So the F117s are certainly not radar-invisible - a lower RCS than
most
> aeroplanes, certainly, but not invisible to a decent radar set with
> a competant operator.
True enough. I don't think anyone in a position of authority has
ever claimed that F117s are really invisible to radar.
But note the 10nm is a very short range for Type 909 to acquire a
target. Against normal (non-stealthy) targets, it should be able to
guide Sea Dart to a range of 40+nm. This is the big benefit of
stealth. Quartering the fire control tracking range reduces the
effective defended area of a system by a factor of 16, and
dramatically reduces the time available for an engagement.
> Hey, we've actually got some naval content in this thread!
And now the title reflects it, so we can sort the live contacts from
the chaff.
--
--------------------------------------------------
TomSc...@worldnet.att.net
*Insert pithy quote here*
Michael P Reed
<TomSc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
It is believed that the Iraqis on atleast on occasion tracked an F-117
with a GCI radar, and attempted to guide a MiG-25 (or was it 23?) to
intercept, but the higher freq radar of the MiG could not locate the
Nighthawk. This was, I believe, the first night of the war, and IIRC
correctly, after that the F-117s had some sort of jamming support.
I'll have to go the library tomorrow to check for sure.
Michael P. Reed
Евгений Ожогин
7dom6m$l73$1...@paladin.cc.emory.edu...
>Vladimir Malukh (b...@propro.ru) wrote:
>:
>:
>: Paul Cassidy wrote:
>:
>: > If you are Serbian, your media is state controlled. How do you explain
>: > interviews with refugees crossing the border into the surrounding
countries
>: > who are all saying about Serb atrocities.
>:
>: So, NATO strikes have reduced the refugee number?
>
>
>NATO isn't striking Kosovo yet.
Read today's news - yesterday a few NATO missile hit the downtown Prisitina
resulting in destructions and lots of casualties, many of whom are the very
Albanians NATO vowed to protect. Some protection.
Ivan the Bear
=Nothing per-r-rsonal, just business...=
Vladimir Malukh
Stanley wrote:
>
>
> As far as the media goes both sides spin their on governments lies until forced
> into telling the truth. This is the way it has been in every war, cold or hot.
> The trouble with this one is the US has a leader that has proven that he is
> incapable of telling the truth to his on people about anything.
Quite right. I have no point and wish to argue.
> It is true that only 53% of the US are for the bombing, but don't mistake this as
> not backing the troops. We all understand that the sailors, soldiers and airman
> of any country have to go were they are sent no matter how much they agree or
> disagree with their mission. Remember it is the politicians that start the wars
> and sit safely at home while the youth and sometimes naive youth are forced to
> fight and die in their wars for them.
Funny (may be I use wrong word - english is not my native language),
but Mr. Clinton already did this in the past, when he evaded to
serve in Vietnam. So hes's just twice as hypocritical.
> Lets be thankful that the pilot of the F-117 bomber is safe and hope that his
> mission was aborted before it killed anyone.
BTW Did your TV showed this guy alive? I hope he is, but I've
heard from Some media, that serbs claim he isn't.
Apart of that I quite pleased with technical ability of
AA defence to shot such "invulnerable" a/c as F-117,
may be just because I'm former SAM engineer. :)
Vladimir Malukh
"Lloyd R. Parker" wrote:
> : So, NATO strikes have reduced the refugee number?
>
> NATO isn't striking Kosovo yet.
In average serbian mind NATO gives serbs leader to
butch Kosovo mor agressively. I do not think
that butching kosovars by serbs is forgivable thing.
I'm telling different thing - there was conflict
between serbs and kosovars. Serbs did humaliated
and butched kosovars, which is not right. But after
NATO bombing things didn't become any better! It doesn't
matter that NATO had (may be) "good intentions". It not
just didn't work, moreover id maked things
worse than before.
"We wished to do the best, but did as usual"
(c) Victor Chernomyrdin, russian ex-premier-minister.
> : Hey, what the f..k you are talking about? The rest of the world?
> : What about Russia, China and India? It's almost half of
> : world population. What about almost half of US sitizens?
> :
>
> None of which had news crews there; 2 of which don't have
> independent news media at all.
None - who? US? Quite explainable...
Russia na China both have news crew in serbia,
I watched Chinese TV couple of days ago and
see russian one very evening.
Regarding to independence - well, hard to
say about China and India, just don't know.
But russian media to me are just "too independent" -
another words - very often they say whatever they
find before proving the facts. Our there major
national TV channels have sometimes just
three orthogonal views, so hard to suspect
them in non-independecne. Still, everything
is relative.
Vladimir Malukh
wolfs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. They've
> lost six of 'em to crashes already.
Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
thing worse - F-104G.
--
Vladimir Malukh
me...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> Vladimir Malukh wrote:
> >
> > Chechnya, Afganistan and Yugoslavia - all three are different matters.
> >
> > 1. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation, so russian government
> > is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
> > there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
> > but still government has this right.
>
> No government is allowed by law to slaughter its citizens, period.
If sitizens are rebels and did broken the loaw and
constitution? Surely it does in many cases. Even ordinary
policeman (who is in fact government representative) has
legal right in certain circumstances to shot criminal without
a court. Of course later the investigation should be proceed.
The amin problem in Cechnya was not illegal usage of
militray force, but POINTLESS aand NEDELESS usage
of that force. Also it was proceeded badly.
> Any government that suppresses those very citizens a redress of
> grievances should expect an uprising and by natural law they
> (the citizens) have _that_ right.
Tell this to cops in Harlem, NY-city.
Keith Willshaw
Vladimir Malukh wrote in message <3700C534...@propro.ru>...
>
>
>me...@ibm.net wrote:
>>
>> No government is allowed by law to slaughter its citizens, period.
>
>If sitizens are rebels and did broken the loaw and
>constitution? Surely it does in many cases. Even ordinary
>policeman (who is in fact government representative) has
>legal right in certain circumstances to shot criminal without
>a court. Of course later the investigation should be proceed.
>
A policeman is allowed to use the necessary force to arrest
the criminal and protect himself and the public. If an armed
criminal resists arrest the Policeman does have the right
to shoot.
>
>The amin problem in Cechnya was not illegal usage of
>militray force, but POINTLESS aand NEDELESS usage
>of that force. Also it was proceeded badly.
>
On that we agree. The use of army troops who have not been
specially trained in restoring order is almost always
disastrous. We learned that in Northern Ireland on
Bloody Sunday.
But protecting society and arresting criminals does not give
the state rights to do everything. Whats is happening in
Kosovo t Serb hands is like blowing up the building a criminal is
hiding in even if it kills 100 innocent people.
Keith
R Weems Jr
: Read today's news - yesterday a few NATO missile hit the downtown Prisitina
: resulting in destructions and lots of casualties, many of whom are the very
: Albanians NATO vowed to protect. Some protection.
I've no doubt Albanians will be casualties, since the Serbs are using
them as human shields at munitions factories and barracks in Kosovo.
We're getting very close to the point when we need to take out the
power plants in Belgrade if the Serbs are going to use human shields
at legitimate military targets.
Robert
Andrew Venor
> wolfs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. They've
> > lost six of 'em to crashes already.
>
> Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
> thing worse - F-104G.
>
This would be the third loss of an F-117A since it entered squadron service in
1983. Two were lost in the 1980's to training accidents, and this one to
ground fire.
ALV
Velovich
>> incapable of telling the truth to his on people about anything.
OK, but EVERYONE esle that has got up and talked about the situation in
Kosovo, like UN delagates and inspectors, news people from the UK and Germany,
COME ON! It is one thing to dislike Clinton, which we share, but to say that
becasue he signs onto something, that MAKES THE WORLD WORLD a liar with him!?
Get a grip on your predjudice!
<*> V-Man
A Knight is sworn to Valor
His Heart knows only Virtue
His Blade defends the Weak
His Word speaks only Truth
His Wrath undoes the Wicked
Delete the ".CanDo" from my addy to reply!
Velovich
>constitution? Surely it does in many cases. Even ordinary
>policeman (who is in fact government representative) has
>legal right in certain circumstances to shot criminal without
>a court. Of course later the investigation should be proceed.
Fine. But civilians NOT associtated witht eh crime that happen to be nearby
or know the criminal? THAT is the problem!!!! GET GRIP!!!
NOBODY is saying that the rebels tehmselves are not taking a grave risk. No
PROBLEM! Got it? It isn't hard!
It is the Civilians that are NOT involved that are lined up and shot that
people are objecting about!
Are you *that* polarised? Or just stupid?
When somebody says teh same thing over and over, and you seems to just ignore
it, I need to ask the question.
STOP focsussing on the Rebels. They ARE NOT the ISSUE! It is the OTHER
kosovars, about 90% of teh total number, that are who everyone is worried
about. TEHY are being attacked by the Serb "Special Police" or whatever they
call the death squads now....
Carl Crosby
4th, remember the airshow? I also recall a training flight crash or two
since Desert Storm. Sorry, no details, just vague memories.
Andrew Venor
thanks for jarring my memory about the airshow crash. I don't remember any training
accidents since Desert Storm though.
ALV
me...@ibm.net
>
> me...@ibm.net wrote:
> > Any government that suppresses those very citizens a redress of
> > grievances should expect an uprising and by natural law they
> > (the citizens) have _that_ right.
>
> Tell this to cops in Harlem, NY-city.
This means what? Americans have the right to the redress of grievances.
Don't give excessively bad analogies to support you dismal authoritarian
viewpoint.
Shea
Евгений Ожогин
the Beeb? I have not seen anything like that in their news. How come you
have? Would you share your secret with the gang?
Ivan the Bear
=Nothing per-r-rsonal, just business...=
R Weems Jr <El...@galileo.cris.com> wrote in message
7dqrbi$8...@chronicle.concentric.net...
Damien Burke
wrote:
>Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
>thing worse - F-104G.
Hey, you should check out the Supermarine Scimitar (1950s UK carrier
jet). Around 50% lost in accidents.
--
Damien Burke (add 'k' to end of address if replying)
British military aircraft site: http://www.totavia.com/jetman/
Keith Willshaw
Евгений Ожогин wrote in message <7drdt9$4k7$5...@ns.mtu.ru>...
>What's your source of information on human shields in Kosovo? UPI, Reuters,
>the Beeb? I have not seen anything like that in their news. How come you
>have? Would you share your secret with the gang?
>
>Ivan the Bear
Its a rumor nothing more .CNN reported it as a fact the BBC
reported it as an unconfirmed rumor
I wish the dammed media would just report the facts not go
looking for stories that made good headlines in the last war.
God knows theres enough real stuff happening
Ah go figure
Keith
--TIGGER--
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Losses.html
Or if your lazy, there's a breif table on another page of mine
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Serial.html
The answer is 7. (Out of 64)
1 cross wired. (Human error)
3 CFIT (Human error)
1 incorrect Installation of Air Duct (Human error)
1 missing support bolts (human error)
1 Unkown over Yugo (Unknown error)
How are these the aircraft's fault???
-Kevin Helm
------------------------------Kevin Helm------------------------------
| Homepage: http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm |
_______ F-117A Site: http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Shabah.html ______
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Vladimir Malukh wrote:
>
>
> wolfs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. They've
> > lost six of 'em to crashes already.
>
> Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
> thing worse - F-104G.
>
>
>
> --
R Weems Jr
: the Beeb? I have not seen anything like that in their news. How come you
: have? Would you share your secret with the gang
and a specific military factory was named. I haven't memorized the
URL of the link where I read it so you can either believe me or not. I
assure you I read it and will post it against when I see a reference to
it. I don't have the time or inclination to go hunting for it on your
request.
Robert
David Bofinger
> The amin problem in Cechnya was not illegal usage of
> militray force, but POINTLESS aand NEDELESS usage
> of that force.
The Geneva convention might not make a distinction here: the
justification for violence under the Geneva protocols is
always military necessity, and if there's no necessity for
the violence (or not enough to justify the level of violence
involved) then the violence becomes a war crime. That assumes
that (a) Vladimir is right and (b) the Russians knew at the
time that the military force was pointless and needless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bofinger David.B...@dsto.defence.gov.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Skelton
>Read about them on my Losses Page:
>http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Losses.html
>
>Or if your lazy, there's a breif table on another page of mine
>http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Serial.html
>
>
>The answer is 7. (Out of 64)
>
>1 cross wired. (Human error)
>3 CFIT (Human error)
>1 incorrect Installation of Air Duct (Human error)
>1 missing support bolts (human error)
>1 Unkown over Yugo (Unknown error)
>
>How are these the aircraft's fault???
A plane, or any other device, can be wasy to keep going, friendly when
mistreated, forgiving of errors and degrade gracefully when things go very
wrong. Then again, it can be bitchy.
The F117 used pretty advanced control systems for its day to make up for
the fact that nobody had figured out how to make something with reasonable
aerodynamics stealthy.
With no real knowledge o teh thing, I'll bet it's a bitch to work on and a
bit of a shrew to fly.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/634-0230
p...@kingston.net
Ken Koller
> > > > There is a reason why the pilots nicknamed it the Wobbly Goblin.. >
> > > > They've lost six of 'em to crashes already.
> > >
> > > Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
> > > thing worse - F-104G.
> > This would be the third loss of an F-117A since it entered squadron service
> > in 1983. Two were lost in the 1980's to training accidents, and this one to
> > ground fire.
> 4th, remember the airshow? I also recall a training flight crash or two
> since Desert Storm. Sorry, no details, just vague memories.
They lost the first production aircraft at Tonapah, a second aircraft in
Tonapah, one in Bakersfield, a fourth that crashed into a mobile home in New
Mexico, the one lost at the airshow, and now this aircraft.
However, if you look at the complexity of the aircraft, the fact that it is
actually an unflyable airplane without the computer flight controls, and the
hazardous missions it flies, I find the safety record acceptable.
Also, you have to remember that the NEWEST of these aircraft are 9 years old.
This aircraft that crashed, 806, was built in 1984, 15 years ago. Not that this
makes much difference in this situation, but these are aircraft that in some
circumstances are pushing 17 years old, and with the complexity of these planes,
I'm suprised only six have crashed.
Ken Koller
kko...@earthlink.net
EMT- American Medical Response, Los Angeles, CA
http://westarm.bc.ca/Ken_Koller/fireline.html
Oleg Bazhenov
me...@ibm.net wrote:
> Vladimir Malukh wrote:
> >
> > Chechnya, Afganistan and Yugoslavia - all three are different matters.
> >
> > 1. Chechnya is part of Russian Federation, so russian government
> > is ALLOWED BY LOW to send troops and aircrafts over
> > there. I personally I disagree, that this was necessar,
> > but still government has this right.
>
> No government is allowed by law to slaughter its citizens, period.
> Any government that suppresses those very citizens a redress of
> grievances should expect an uprising and by natural law they
> (the citizens) have _that_ right.
>
Hi!
Those "citizenz" killed many civilians in Chechnya before the Russian
"invasion" and even more after that. Including foreign citizens. Just
remember
for telecommunication engineers from Britain and New Zealand. They lost
their heads for nothing. Don't you think that any goverment shoud stay away
from such facts? The same thing was in Yugoslavia. Federal troops just fight
agains albanian terrorist. And don't say me that it is propoganda. Just look
at the Turkey, there goverment fighting against kurds. This situation is
identical the yugoslavian one. Let's bomb Ankara and Istanbul to get fun! (
sarcastic )
Don't you understand that the true reason of bombing is NEITHER the support
of
kosovars NOR the suppresion of serbs. The true reason is to show for
everybody
who is the master of the Planet. President Reagan once said about Salvadorian
leader " He is son of the bitch, but he is OUR son of the bitch". That's why
US and NATO will protect any THEY want to protect, not the right one.
With best regards
Oleg Bazhenov
Oleg Bazhenov
Jeff Rankin-Lowe wrote:
> Nikola Stojanovic wrote:
>
> > Why ? He is criminal
>
> Right, and the Serb army and police who get their kicks from slaughtering
> unarmed civilians, including women and children, are a bunch of angels.
>
> Jeff Rankin-Lowe
What about ARMED civilian? And may be KLA is a myth?
Oleg Bazhenov
Keith Willshaw wrote:
> Jeff Rankin-Lowe wrote in message <36FD98E7...@on.aibn.com>...
>
> >
> >Right, and the Serb army and police who get their kicks from slaughtering
> >unarmed civilians, including women and children, are a bunch of angels.
> >
> >Jeff Rankin-Lowe
> >
>
> Jeff please replace the word Angels with Targets
>
> Keith
Very cinic.
Oleg Bazhenov
Oleg Bazhenov
Paul Cassidy wrote:
> OTOH, the tail numbers do match an F-117.
>
> Not good!
>
> Paul Cassidy wrote in message <7djsvb$b83f$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
> >Are we sure it was an F-117. The wreckage looked wrong to me. For a start
> it
> >seemed to be grey not black. There were some markings, including the words
> >"Air combat...".
> >
> >Juha Veijalainen wrote in message ...
> >>In article <36fd6b32...@news.axion.net>, Adam Yoshida
> >>(adam_y...@yahoo.com) says...
> >>> CNN is reporting that a US F-117A has been shot down.
> >>>
> >>> How the hell did manage that?
> >>
> >>Well, a F-117A is neither invincible nor invisible, despite some
> >>enthusiastic claims. For example a BBC defense analyst said that on some
> >>occasions British ships could detect it on radar from 150 km (or miles)
> >>and that the Iraqis could sometimes detect them from 60 km. Depends of
> >>course on the situation.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Juha Veijalainen, Helsinki, Finland, http://www.iki.fi/juhave/
> >>Some random words: bomb,steganography,cryptography,reindeer
> >>** Mielipiteet omiani ** Opinions personal, facts suspect **
> >
> >
Sorry, they didn't know it was invisible. :)
Oleg Bazhenov
José Herculano wrote:
> > How sad :(
>
> I'd also be sad if Milosevish was my ruler and if I had to live in
> yugoslavia. ;-)
>
> José Herculano
Really? You know once day I was really sick from Boccassa emperor.
What the pity
we did not bomb him :).
With Best regards
Oleg Bazhenov
Oleg Bazhenov
Keith Willshaw wrote:
> Евгений Ожогин wrote in message <7drdt9$4k7$5...@ns.mtu.ru>...
> >What's your source of information on human shields in Kosovo? UPI, Reuters,
> >the Beeb? I have not seen anything like that in their news. How come you
> >have? Would you share your secret with the gang?
> >
> >Ivan the Bear
>
> Its a rumor nothing more .CNN reported it as a fact the BBC
> reported it as an unconfirmed rumor
>
> I wish the dammed media would just report the facts not go
> looking for stories that made good headlines in the last war.
> God knows theres enough real stuff happening
>
> Ah go figure
>
> Keith
Don't listen news, listen your mind.
With Best Regards
Oleg Bazhenov
Vladimir Malukh
--TIGGER-- wrote:
>
> Read about them on my Losses Page:
> http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Losses.html
>
> Or if your lazy, there's a breif table on another page of mine
> http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Serial.html
>
> The answer is 7. (Out of 64)
>
> 1 cross wired. (Human error)
> 3 CFIT (Human error)
> 1 incorrect Installation of Air Duct (Human error)
> 1 missing support bolts (human error)
> 1 Unkown over Yugo (Unknown error)
>
> How are these the aircraft's fault???
> Read about them on my Losses Page:
> http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Losses.html
>
> Or if your lazy, there's a breif table on another page of mine
> http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Serial.html
>
>
> The answer is 7. (Out of 64)
>
> 1 cross wired. (Human error)
> 3 CFIT (Human error)
> 1 incorrect Installation of Air Duct (Human error)
> 1 missing support bolts (human error)
> 1 Unkown over Yugo (Unknown error)
>
> How are these the aircraft's fault???
My friends (and customers) from Sukhoy OKB
use to say - most if not all pilot errors are caused
by designer error. Also, there is such thing as
toleration of a/c to pilot errors. Another words,
if any or most of pilot error cause a/c loss - this
is problem of design but not pilots training.
This actually means that a/c is difficult to
maintain and to control.
Regards
Vladimir
Vladimir Malukh
Damien Burke wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:28:29 +0700, Vladimir Malukh <b...@propro.ru>
> wrote:
>
> >Six of 60 built? 10% lost in crashes? There is only
> >thing worse - F-104G.
>
> Hey, you should check out the Supermarine Scimitar (1950s UK carrier
> jet). Around 50% lost in accidents.
> --
Well, I have to admit - Scimitar is worse, thant two above :)
Vladimir Malukh
Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> On that we agree. The use of army troops who have not been
> specially trained in restoring order is almost always
> disastrous. We learned that in Northern Ireland on
> Bloody Sunday.
>
> But protecting society and arresting criminals does not give
> the state rights to do everything. Whats is happening in
> Kosovo t Serb hands is like blowing up the building a criminal is
> hiding in even if it kills 100 innocent people.
Before writing next sentence I'd to say, that to from my
view Miloshevich and his administartion are criminlas,
BUT before butching him (not serbs but Milo gang) we
(a world community) have to prove this using THE LAW.
But, instead of that US+NATO decided to blow the whole
city, where is the building, where criminal is hiding.
So what the differnce between the NATO and serbs?
Also, there is thing, that makes situation more
complicated to sort out - these innocent people
do help to that criminal to hide.
gws
news:19990330132810...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
> >> The trouble with this one is the US has a leader that has
proven that he is
> >> incapable of telling the truth to his on people about
anything.
>
> OK, but EVERYONE esle that has got up and talked about the
situation in
> Kosovo, like UN delagates and inspectors, news people from the
UK and Germany,
> COME ON! It is one thing to dislike Clinton, which we share,
but to say that
> becasue he signs onto something, that MAKES THE WORLD WORLD a
liar with him!?
>
> Get a grip on your predjudice!
Unfortunately, the claim that Bill Clinton "has proven that he is
incapable of telling the truth," while marginally overstated, is
more true than false. This fact puts Bill Clinton and the U.S.
at a terrible disadvantage. The crunch will come when the
decision has to be made to either (1) withdraw from Kosovo
without accomplishing the objective of stopping
genocide --suffering a humiliating defeat in other words -- or
(2) introduce ground troops in such overwhelming numbers that
Milosevic must capitulate or see his armed forces devastated.
Because Milosevec has raised the stakes so high -- a ghastly
mistake on his part, it seems to me -- Clinton, crippled though
he is, may be able to build enough of a consensus to introduce
enough ground troops into the struggle to win. I believe that he
has to try. If he fails, his miscalculation in attacking the
Serbs with no plan beyond air strikes will have destroyed NATO.
Grey Satterfield
Chiggie Red Baron
9_=CE=E6=EE=E3=E8=ED?= <siber...@mtu-net.ru> writes
>What's your source of information on human shields in Kosovo? UPI, Reuters,
>the Beeb? I have not seen anything like that in their news. How come you
>have? Would you share your secret with the gang?
>
asked about the possibility of human shields.
Jamie Shea said that he had heard of such reports, but would not comment
further on them until they were independently verified. He further
stated that NATO preferred to report facts....which is why they are
holding off reporting this until the truth is gathering.
--
The Chiggie Red Baron
"I looked at the Serb Army herding women and children into a line and thought
of 'Schindlers List' and 'Sophies Choice' " - a Dutch Lt.Col (Surgeon), part
of the UN peacekeeping forces in Bosnia
Keith Willshaw
Vladimir Malukh wrote in message <3701DEC6...@propro.ru>...
>
>
>Before writing next sentence I'd to say, that to from my
>view Miloshevich and his administartion are criminlas,
>BUT before butching him (not serbs but Milo gang) we
>(a world community) have to prove this using THE LAW.
>
I would like to see him brought before the law , specifically
the International court of human justice in the hague
but there are already serb criminals with international arrest
warrants signed against them . They are living in Belgrade.
If they WON'T appear and are committing more and worse
crimes they have to be stopped. The only state that could
have put real pressure on Milosevic short of war was
Russia, they declined to do so. Onve he knew that Russia
and China would veto any Security council resolutions
to use force milosevic beleived Russia was giving him
a free hand.
Milosevic won't stop at Kosovo if he wins here, who will
be next , Macedonia , Bosnia AGAIN ore Montengro
which wants to secede.
To date NATO has NOT blown up the whole city. Yes
there has been some civilian damage but the targetting
has clearly been on military and dual purpose sites.
Even infrastructure such as Road , Rail , bridges and power
have not been targeted. If you want to know what this can do
remeber Sarajevo which had no power or water for
MONTHS because the serbs destroyed pumping stations
and cut the power lines.
Keith
Velovich
>incapable of telling the truth," while marginally overstated, is
>more true than false.
I understand what you are saying, Grey. It is just that, "Because it is a
Clinton Administration Action, it must be bad." attitude shows a COMPLETE lack
of actually paying attention to the news. That guy saw Clinton speak, and
automatically decided taht Clinton was wrong, SIMPLY because it was CLinton.
The Interviews I saw of UN officals had NO US officals in view. Sorry, but
hero needs to stop hating Clinton so much and start using his mind.
Velovich
>have not been targeted. If you want to know what this can do
>remeber Sarajevo which had no power or water for
>MONTHS because the serbs destroyed pumping stations
>and cut the power lines.
Look over on alt.binaries.pictures.miltiary for evidence of this. There are
Serbs over there that are spamming left and right with what (almost) amounts to
propoganda...
Some of it is sick, some is cleverly done, however ineffectual...
gws
> >Unfortunately, the claim that Bill Clinton "has proven that he
is
> >incapable of telling the truth," while marginally overstated,
is
> >more true than false.
>
> I understand what you are saying, Grey. It is just that,
"Because it is a
> Clinton Administration Action, it must be bad." attitude shows
a COMPLETE lack
> of actually paying attention to the news. That guy saw Clinton
speak, and
> automatically decided taht Clinton was wrong, SIMPLY because it
was CLinton.
> The Interviews I saw of UN officals had NO US officals in view.
Sorry, but
> hero needs to stop hating Clinton so much and start using his
mind.
Clinton has his weaknesses, God knows. Nevertheless, he is a
gifted politician and a brilliant fellow so I agree that it is a
mistake to assume that everything he does is wrong.
Grey Satterfield
gws
> >Even infrastructure such as Road , Rail , bridges and power
> >have not been targeted. If you want to know what this can do
> >remeber Sarajevo which had no power or water for
> >MONTHS because the serbs destroyed pumping stations
> >and cut the power lines.
>
> Look over on alt.binaries.pictures.miltiary for evidence of
this. There are
> Serbs over there that are spamming left and right with what
(almost) amounts to
> propoganda...
> Some of it is sick, some is cleverly done, however
ineffectual...
Some retired general or admiral said on the News Hour the other
night, "We may have to decide to drop the bridges and turn out
the [Belgrade] lights"
Grey Satterfield
Stuart Makagon
Oleg Bazhenov wrote in message <3701E00A...@inp.nsk.su>...
>
>
[snip]
>Don't you understand that the true reason of bombing is NEITHER the support
>of
>kosovars NOR the suppresion of serbs. The true reason is to show for
>everybody
>who is the master of the Planet. President Reagan once said about
Salvadorian
>
>leader " He is son of the bitch, but he is OUR son of the bitch". That's
why
>US and NATO will protect any THEY want to protect, not the right one.
>
No, the true reason is revulsion at Milosovic's policy of "ethnic cleansing"
and other abuses of ethnic Albanian civilians living in Kosovo whether they
are taking part in resistance to Serb authorities or not.
BTW is was Franklin D. Roosevelt, not Ronald Reagan who made the remark
about the Central American dictator being our SOB. He was speaking of
Anastazio Somoza of Nicaragua. IIRC, FDR made that remark during the 1930s.
The world was heading toward WW II. Another dictator, I forget his name ;-),
signed a treaty of alliance with Adolf Hitler. FDR did not want a regime in
the Carribean that would play ball with either of those dictators.
--
Delete "z" from e-mail address if responding via e-mail
Евгений Ожогин
The former, holding a pack of papers, referred to Ge. William Walker's (OCSE
in Kosovo chief) reports whre he mentiont human rights violations, clashes,
skirmishes, etc, but no ethnic cleansing, genocide or other suchlike
nasties. And it is hard to accuse Mr. Walker of excessive love to Serbs.
Ivan the Bear
=Nothing per-r-rsonal, just business...=
Chiggie Red Baron <gra...@airnorth1.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
89zGUDAY...@airnorth1.demon.co.uk...
TMOliver
>
> Velovich <velo...@aol.com.CanDo> wrote in message
> news:19990331162339...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
> > >Even infrastructure such as Road , Rail , bridges and power
> > >have not been targeted. If you want to know what this can do
> > >remeber Sarajevo which had no power or water for
> > >MONTHS because the serbs destroyed pumping stations
> > >and cut the power lines.
> >
> night, "We may have to decide to drop the bridges and turn out
> the [Belgrade] lights"
>
> Grey Satterfield
The US has traditionally demonstrated an unwillingness to "turn out the
lights" in a massive civil sense, but one positive result of such a
decision would be the limitation of Serb spamming to laptop battery
life...
...and also substantial discomfort to a country which is no longer a
subsistence or agrarian economy. After the meat and milk begin to
spoil, times get tough in Beograd. Of course, we couldn't see CNN. but
who gives a shit in the grand scheme of things? I see nothing callous
or brutal about power staions, water plants or even neater your local
sewer facility as targets (nor would have GEN Sherman who comprehended
that the purpose of warfare was not to "Make a Point").
--
TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
Catullus
TMOliver
>
> Clinton has his weaknesses, God knows. Nevertheless, he is a
> gifted politician and a brilliant fellow so I agree that it is a
> mistake to assume that everything he does is wrong.
>
> Grey Satterfield
....which forms both a source and a grim manifestation of the problem we
face.
Having a leader whom we come to believe is not altogether (at all, a
little bit, every now and again) credible, our collective capacity for
disbelief increases, under the noted legal doctrine "puer lupo evocati"
(By Golly, it even sounds good!), the little boy who cried wolf, and
even when he's right, his task becomes enormously more difficult, the
selling of the truth to folks conditoned to hear something other than
the truth.
Thus the dismal state to which the Presidency has descended.