R-113 question
woj...@iccgcc.cs.hh.ab.com
I've been looking at some used Dodge and Plymouth minivans.
On some I see a sticker saying they used R-113 in the air
conditioner. My question is how available is R-113 or is it
limited like R-12? And can R-12 or GHG-12 be mixed with it?
Thanks for any info.
Jim
Daniel Joshua Stern
refrigerants used in Chrysler products: R-12 (til 93) R-134 (after)
SL6 Dan
George Goble
as a cleaning solvent (or foam blowing agent) during the manufacture
of the car or its parts. It is not used in the A/C as the refrigerant.
It was formerly used (as was R-11) as a "flush" during A/C service to
clean out the system. Most likely, your car has some electronics board
which had the flux cleaned off using R-113 during mfgr.. EPA requires
stickers now, if any CFC was used during mfgr.
R-113 is now much harder to find than R-12 now..
GHG-12 (also called R-406A) can be mixed with R-12 and it works fine.
However, this makes people mad whom are in the recovery/reclaim
business. The Auto industry is against mixing GHG-12 and R-12 since
they claim it reduces the supply of R-12 for cars. Indianapolis
Refrigeration Products (800-497-6805) is an EPA approved reclaimer
and they will take back mixed GHG-12 and R-12 blends for reclaiming.
Don't put GHG-12 in a car in the US. The EPA has approved R-406A
for almost all uses except Mobile A/C (cars).. Using it in a car
in the US could get you a $25,000 fine + a $10,000 reward to somebody
who turns you in. Any GHG-12 already in a car before 2/14/94 is
still "legal" and does not have to be removed.
EPA defines Mobile A/C as anything which cools people for comfort.
R-406A is legal for refrigerated transport in a semi-trailer, but
cannot be used to cool the driver in the cab, etc..
--ghg
Bob Valentine
George Goble <g...@freedom.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>GHG-12 (also called R-406A) can be mixed with R-12 and it works fine.
>However, this makes people mad whom are in the recovery/reclaim
>business. The Auto industry is against mixing GHG-12 and R-12 since
>they claim it reduces the supply of R-12 for cars.
If it is compadible with R12, then why does it "reduce the supply"?
(I'm not arguing, just curious as to the exact reason)
>Don't put GHG-12 in a car in the US. The EPA has approved R-406A
>for almost all uses except Mobile A/C (cars)..
>EPA defines Mobile A/C as anything which cools people for comfort.
>R-406A is legal for refrigerated transport in a semi-trailer, but
>cannot be used to cool the driver in the cab, etc..
Why can't it be used in the passenger compartment?
--> Bob Valentine Owner of the "B.A.I.D" -- Bob's
--> rava...@mailbox.syr.edu Array
--> John De Armond Fan Club Member #442 of
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George Goble
>In article <368ubj$r...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
>George Goble <g...@freedom.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>>GHG-12 (also called R-406A) can be mixed with R-12 and it works fine.
>>However, this makes people mad whom are in the recovery/reclaim
>>business. The Auto industry is against mixing GHG-12 and R-12 since
>>they claim it reduces the supply of R-12 for cars.
>
> If it is compadible with R12, then why does it "reduce the supply"?
>(I'm not arguing, just curious as to the exact reason)
Powers to be, want the equipment to be "retrofitted", in other words
removing all the R-12, and giving it to the auto industry...
If one has a large chiller, with 1000lbs of R-12, and it slowly
leaks, and it gets "topped off" with 50lbs of GHG-12, than the auto
industry feels (and does the ARI), that 950 remaining lbs of
"R-12" in the chiller is "contaminated", and can never be used
for cars.. It will stay with the chiller and not go to the cars..
Indianapolis Refrigeration Products, this summer, checked with
the EPA SNAP group (Jeff Levy), on the question of mixing
R-406A with R-12.. and he replied "no problem" (not allowed for
cars though).. New rules/laws are in the making to prohibit mixing
refrigerants for cars (like unleaded gas but worse)
Well, Indy REFRG ran an AD for R-406A, saying it was OK to mix with R-12,
and they would "Take back" used refrigerant..Hell broke loose
instantly.. The EPA then asked us to retract the mixing with R-12 part.
There is no technical reason.. but lots of "political" ones I guess.
>
>>Don't put GHG-12 in a car in the US. The EPA has approved R-406A
>>for almost all uses except Mobile A/C (cars)..
>
>>EPA defines Mobile A/C as anything which cools people for comfort.
>>R-406A is legal for refrigerated transport in a semi-trailer, but
>>cannot be used to cool the driver in the cab, etc..
>
> Why can't it be used in the passenger compartment?
Cooling the "cab" falls under "Mobile A/C" rules, since typically
Semi Cabs use A/C parts/compressors built in the auto-industry.
Cooling the cargo falls under "stationary A/C rules", since they
are not built using automotive compressors.. seems to be more
whose pocket book is affected the most..
>
>--> Bob Valentine Owner of the "B.A.I.D" -- Bob's
--ghg
kenneth c king
[ stuph sacrificed to the net.bandwith gods ]
>in the US could get you a $25,000 fine + a $10,000 reward to somebody
greetings:
if one had their a/c system evacuated at an approved recycling center,
would one be in trouble for re-filling the system at home? i'm not a
lawyer, nor have i seen the exact text, so i'm asking for some help.
later,
kc
Wes Fujii
: if one had their a/c system evacuated at an approved recycling center,
: would one be in trouble for re-filling the system at home? i'm not a
: lawyer, nor have i seen the exact text, so i'm asking for some help.
You can refill it at home if you hold an approved automotive A/C
refrigerant handling certificate, have the approved equipment and
operate that equipment correctly. That includes pumping down the
equipment into a recycling machine when you are finished and unhook
the gageset. Most people don't have the recycling machine hanging
around in their garage...
Wes Fujii
________________________________________________________________
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/ /__/ // / A real motor is an Oldsmobile Rocket 455
/ HURST // / "This is NOT the new generation of Olds"
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/ // / \ \ Wes "BANZAI" Fujii
/ // /OLDS/ / Boise, Idaho
/ / \ \___/ / we...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
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Gregory P Dubois-Felsmann
CFC-113 falls under the same international regulations as CFC-12,
and as such new production of CFC-113 is banned in all developed
country parties to the Montreal Protocol (virtually every major
developed country except a few CIS members) from 1/1/1996.
In the European Union CFC-113 production is banned from 1/1/1995.
However, since CFC-113's thermophysical properties are rather
different from CFC-12's, it is unlikely to have been used as a
refrigerant in the vehicles mentioned by the poster. The poster
may have been seeing evidence of labeling rules requiring
disclosure of the use of CFCs in manufacturing; CFC-113 was once
a commonly used solvent.
Since CFC-113 was largely used in emissive applications (i.e. as
a solvent) I would expect that the "bank" of recoverable
quantities of this substance would be much less than for CFC-12,
and therefore that it will become almost completely unavailable
fairly quickly after the production phase-out.
CFC-113 has an ODP of 1.07 relative to CFC-11 (1991 best estimate).
Apologies if these questions have already been answered; the above
post took three days to reach Oxford.
Gregory
Greg Marciniak
The fines involved are for venting not refilling. Small releases
of refrigerant from hoses used in good faith attempts to minimize
those releases are not a problem. What you suggest should be no
problem at this time althought certification is required after
Nov. 14 this year for larger commercial systems. I am not sure
what timetable applies to autos. I am certified for larger systems
but not autos. I was told it was no problem working on my own auto
system. I think the problem comes into play in work done for pay
(commercial enterprise) not work on your own auto.
Greg Marciniak
Jeff Brown
: >Don't put GHG-12 in a car in the US. The EPA has approved R-406A
: >for almost all uses except Mobile A/C (cars)..
: >EPA defines Mobile A/C as anything which cools people for comfort.
: >R-406A is legal for refrigerated transport in a semi-trailer, but
: >cannot be used to cool the driver in the cab, etc..
I read on the net a while back that R-406A may be approved by the EPA,
in the future, for use in auto A/C. Is this still true?
Just wondering
Jeff Brown