CNN
Huge Cajones Remailer
CNN
SHOW: CNN TODAY 13:00 pm ET
January 29, 1997; Wednesday 1:14 pm Eastern
Transcript # 97012904V13
SHOW-TYPE: INTERVIEW
SECTION: News; International
LENGTH: 2921 words
HEADLINE: Scientologists Claim Nazi-like Persecution in Modern
Germany
BYLINE: Bobbie Battista
HIGHLIGHT: Heber Jentzsch, president of the Church of
Scientology International, and Jeffrey Hadden, a sociology
professor at the University of Virginia, discuss the
persecution that Scientology has faced in Germany.
BODY:
BOBBIE BATTISTA, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. State Department is
preparing to release a human rights report that criticizes
Germany for its treatment of Scientologists. German
lawmakers, including Chancellor Helmut Kohl's party, has said
that Scientology is not a church, it's a totalitarian
organization. They say it's goal is to make money and take
over the world. Scientologists strongly deny those claims,
and say they're being persecuted.
As CNN's Bill Delaney found out last month, the conflict is
becoming intense.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a
promotional tape for the Church of Scientology, introducing
"Dianetics," religion or rouse.
Outside Scientology headquarters in the Northern German
city of Hamburg, handing out pamphlets has gotten to be a
hazardous duty. Insults, even physical attacks,
Scientologists in Germany say daily they are demonized.
SABINE WEBER, CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY: Dismissed from their
jobs, boycotted, spit at, lied at, bomb threats, murder
threats, broken glasses, graffiti on the house, on the wall,
physically attack. The main thing is they are being isolated
from society.
DELANEY (voice-over): A fax Scientologists say arrived at
the Hamburg office -- "Jews were gassed," it reads, "Why not
Scientologists?"
Still, Scientology critics in Germany says the church's
repeated comparison of campaigns against it, as here in the
"New York Times," to the Nazi persecution of the Jews is over
the top.
One criticism of Scientology, once you start, critics say,
dependency is created. A need for ever more expensive
auditing. Counseling sessions to -- as Scientologists say --
go-clear.
The woman we will call "Gabriela" says she spent more than
$100,000 on an organization that's only goal is control.
GABRIELA (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Scientology is against any
kind of freedom of human beings of governments. That's what
is so dangerous about it.
Scientology is totalitarian organization, they want power.
DELANEY (voice-over): A misreading, Scientologists say, of
their freely acknowledged interests in winning as many hearts
and minds as possible. For a cost, they freely admit can
reach tens of thousands of dollars.
DELANEY (on-camera): In Germany, as in few other places,
it's understood how wrong things can go when people lose the
right to believe what they will. What's also understood,
though, the delicate balance, how vulnerable people can be to
the allure of something with all the answers.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Berlin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BATTISTA: The State Department has said a recent comparison
of the treatment of Scientologists to that of Jews in Nazi
Germany goes too far. But it indicates just how bitter this
fight has become.
Joining us to talk about the conflict are Heber Jentzsch,
president of the Church of Scientology International, and
Jeffrey Hadden, a sociology professor at the University of
Virginia, who has extensively studied religion and cults.
Mr. Jentzsch, I'm still confused -- as I'm sure a lot of
other people are -- what exactly is Scientology?
HEBER JENTZSCH, PRES., CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTL.:
Scientology is a religion, it recognizes that man is spiritual
being, that he has a mind which is not his brain, and that he
has a body. And that one can apply these principles to his
life that he learns in Scientology. He can change his
conditions for the better. He can understand who he is as a
spiritual being.
He can answer the questions: who am I? what am I doing
here? And he can dispel the basic lies that come out about
saying that man is just a piece of meat, that he is just a
body, and so forth. It gives him a way to make up his mind,
himself, about what Scientology is, how is works, that sort of
thing. That is Scientology as a religion, which is worldwide
in scope, and 115 countries with over 5,000 organizations,
over eight million members, and about 120 million of Mr.
Hubbard's works, which are available to people to read.
BATTISTA: Is it rooted in Judeo-Christian belief?
JENTZSCH: No, it's not -- it's more Eastern in concept. We
believe that man can understand his relationship with god as
the supreme being by understanding himself, first as a
spiritual being. So that's more Eastern tradition. The
Western tradition says that one understand's himself by first
understanding god. It's two different approaches to
understanding your relationship as a spiritual being, and your
relationship to god for the supreme being.
BATTISTA: Does it require the giving up of possessions, or
a great deal of money, on a non-voluntary basis?
JENTZSCH: No, it does not. People who come into
Scientology do pay for services. They received counseling,
they study the religion of Scientology. And you know people's
IQ's increase in Scientology. They find they are more
capable. We have done Sociological studies and have shown
people being more able in Scientology.
It's a religion in which you make up your mind about
though, you try it, you apply principles to your life that are
religious principles, which are spiritual principles, and you
find out whether it works for yourself, you make up your own
mind.
BATTISTA: All right, Mr. Hadden, can the Church of
Scientology be classified as a cult?
JEFFREY HADDEN, UVA SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR: Let me say, first
of all, there are good number of ways we can define cult. Let
me offer you two perspectives here. The first is broad popular
cultural perception. With this definition, the cult is any
group that I don't like. I don't like them, I can give me a
few moments I can give you all sorts of reasons why their
religious freedoms ought not to be granted.
From a sociological perspective, we look at the question of
religious organizations. There are, basically, four kinds of
religious organizations. An eclesia (ph), which is one in
which religious organization has monopoly over religion in the
state. We have denominations, which exist in pluralistic
cultures. Then, we have two other kinds of religious
organizations, which constitute the foundation of religious
innovation. One is sectarian movements -- Sects are
splinters, all from established religious groups. Finally, we
have cults. Cults are organizations which come into being
through innovation, radical innovation, through invention or
through importation from another culture.
BATTISTA: Which one is Scientology, would you say?
HADDEN: I think this is clearly a case of religious
innovation, initiated by Elron Hubbard, and very much been
formed by his study of Eastern faith traditions.
BATTISTA: There were claims in this story that we saw just
a few moments ago that Scientology creates dependency, and
that the organization's only interested in power. But how is
this different from other major religions?
HADDEN: Well, I think one has to look very long and hard to
find the significant differences. All religions -- religious
organizations -- have the potential to create dependency, as
do marital relationships and other fraternal organizations.
All kinds of organizations people belong to they can become
dependent upon financially, psychologically, emotionally. But
in this respect, I don't find Scientology to be different from
other religious organizations, or other kinds of organizations
to which people can become dependent.
BATTISTA: Why, then, is there so much fear about this
religion and not just overseas, but the church has come under
attack in the United States, as well?
Go ahead, Mr. Jentzsch.
JENTZSCH: I think I can answer. First of all, why is there
so much attack in Germany? I can't explain that. Why there
was so much attack upon the Jews? There was no foundation for
it.
We take a look at this, if I were just to change the word
here, instead of Scientologists and insert the word Jew. If
we read a news article saying that in Bavaria, yesterday, a
six-year-old child was kicked out of school because his
parents were Jews. Or yesterday in Germany a person was
dismissed from work because he is a Jew. Or we were to say
that a person was not allowed to vote because he -- or not
allowed to be a member of a political party -- because he is a
Jew.
That is exactly what is happening to the Scientologists.
How do we deal with that? When does never again become never
again? At what point do you say it's okay to destroy people's
lives, or their livelihood, or take children as the minister
of labor saying "I'll go through the places in Germany, the
schools and kick out these children who are in the
kindergartens," what kind of mind is that, if you say we're
going to kick out -- because their parents are Scientologists.
It really hits home that there is something wrong here.
Something terribly wrong. How do we deal with that?
BATTISTA: Mr. Hadden is it fair to compare the treatment of
Scientologists to Jews in the Holocaust?
HADDEN: I would, personally, say that when I first became
aware of the strategy that the Scientologists were pursuing in
this that I thought they had overstated their case, but I have
read their materials carefully and followed it over the years.
To pick up on one of those "New York Times" full-page ads is
stark, it grabs your attention, but that's what it's meant to
do.
And I think it's important to say that Scientologists have
never claimed that -- that the holocaust is just around the
corner. What they have done is try to draw parallels between
what happened in the 19 -- mid to late 1930s, 1940s -- and
certain systematic pattern that has happened not only towards
Scientologists, but other quote "new" religious groups in
Germany.
And the parallelisms are clearly there. Their strategy,
obviously, is to prevent the further progression of the
campaigns of hate.
BATTISTA: But we should point out that Germany exercises
freedom of religion also. What has happened here?
JENTZSCH: Let me respond that, because my concern is that
there are other religious groups who are under attack, and
these have been documented by an independent body that went
from members of the House of Lords over there, they found a
number of groups. The Germans have said that the Jehova's
Witnesses are totalitarians, that the Bahais are
totalitarians, and that the Charismatics are totalitarians.
I find it interesting that they were part of the people
that were listed as organizations to be decimated in 1930s
World War II. Let me be illustrative, here is something which
we have found -- this is depicting the Jews as a vampire bat
in the 1930s. It's a horrible thing -- it's a horrible thing.
But over here, you see then that sects -- as they are said to
be -- are also being classified in the same manner. They are
using the same images.
What do we do with that? The most decisive point is this
one which is a -- this is handout by the Young Union, the
Christian democratic Union, the main union of the political
parties there in Germany. They are passing out something
saying insect and 9 -- which means "no sects," and smashing
them with a fly swatter. This is unconscionable. These same
images used from 30s being used now.
When does never again become never again. When do you say
-- when our peoples lives are being threatened, when people
are losing their jobs, when children are kicked out of
kindergartens, that's not the mark of a Democracy, that is a
mark of totalitarian government. We must say somewhere it's
no.
That's why it has been condemned by the United Nations, it
has been condemned by the State Department and other
international bodies are very concerned about the broader
perspective of minority religions being attacked by that
government. It's dead wrong.
BATTISTA: Let me give the last word to Mr. Hadden. Is
there concern for that as well academically?
JADDEN: Well, I think, that one cannot help be but
concerned about the problem of religious freedom. Germany and
most European countries have had the monopoly faithed
traditions for a long, long time. As we find the growth of
new religions, they find themselves having difficulty coping
with them.
The notion of pluralism, in which all religions have a
place at the table, which has been a part of our American
cultural heritage has not been a part of much of Europe, which
has had a monopoly religious faith in which they have
tolerated religions as opposed to welcoming all comers. I
think scholars, as citizens of the world, should, genuinely,
be concerned about what is happening not only in Germany but
other European countries as well.
BATTISTA: All right, Jeffrey Hadden we thank you very much
for coming in today, and Mr. Jentzsch we have to go, but thank
you very much.
JENTZSCH: They need to look at the facts, they need to look
at the facts and they have never addressed that. They should
answer to that.
BATTISTA: Thank you so much. Thank you both.
Huge Cajones Remailer
Huge Cajones Remailer
Huge Cajones Remailer
Mike O'Connor
In article <1997013004...@mailmasher.com>, nob...@huge.cajones.com
(Huge Cajones Remailer) wrote:
> CNN
>
> SHOW: CNN TODAY 13:00 pm ET
>
> January 29, 1997; Wednesday 1:14 pm Eastern
>
> Transcript # 97012904V13
[...]
> Joining us to talk about the conflict are Heber Jentzsch,
> president of the Church of Scientology International, and
> Jeffrey Hadden, a sociology professor at the University of
> Virginia, who has extensively studied religion and cults.
[...]
I don't know if this was posted by the cult or a critic, but no matter, it
is the interview I commented about yesterday. I felt Mr. Hadden was a
"ringer" for the thriving cult of greed and power. For example, you can see
an "Expertise" from Mr. Hadden that the cult has posted on its own Web
site. It was filed in the losing case against Steven Fishman.
The cult page is I refer to is at
<http://www.scientology.org/copyright/hadden.htm>
If you wish to make a comment to CNN, you can use their feedback page which
is at <http://cnn.com/feedback/>.
-Mike
Martin Hunt
}
} SHOW: CNN TODAY 13:00 pm ET
}
} January 29, 1997; Wednesday 1:14 pm Eastern
...
} One criticism of Scientology, once you start, critics say,
}dependency is created. A need for ever more expensive
}auditing. Counseling sessions to -- as Scientologists say --
}go-clear.
Another criticism of scientology: they murdered a woman in Clearwater.
Get your shit together, CNN!
--
$cientologists on the lam: Susanne Schnurrenberger-Graewer, Ildiko
Cannovas and Laura Arrunada, wanted for questioning concerning the
mysterious death of Lisa McPherson in Clearwater, FLA.