Janice and group
Gary Wayne
Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer.
However I must disagree with your conclusions.
How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has
been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead
over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened.
No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem
to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell
of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25
years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my
exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob &
they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have
been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the
exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob.
So I can never deny it is real.
I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are
similar but not exact to obe. I feel all dreams take place on some
level of the astral.
Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without
sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up.
Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of
body, explain this?
Conclusion OBE IS REAL
GW
Ian H Spedding
2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>, ELth...@webtv.net says...
>
> I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not.
> Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer.
> However I must disagree with your conclusions.
> How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has
> been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead
> over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened.
> No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
> that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem
> to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell
> of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25
> years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my
> exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob &
> they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have
> been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the
> exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob.
> So I can never deny it is real.
> I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are
> similar but not exact to obe. I feel all dreams take place on some
> level of the astral.
The term "brain-dead" is a little misleading since death, by
definition, is something you don't recover from. All we can say
is that any activity in a brain in that state is below the level
which can be detected by current technology.
The other problem with OBEs or near-death experiences reported
while in this state is that they could have occured during the
periods of unconsciousness immediately before and after the state
of "brain-death".
> Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without
> sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up.
> Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of
> body, explain this?
Blind people are able to build up a remarkably detailed picture
of the world around them based on information from the other
senses. In the case of things they reported "seeing" while OBE,
the test would be to see if they saw something they couldn't have
picked up any other way like accurately describing the colours of
things.
Ian
--
Ian H Spedding
Janice
ELth...@webtv.net says...
>I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not.
>Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer.
>However I must disagree with your conclusions.
That's fine with me. Disagreement is a good thing. :-)
>How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has
>been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead
>over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened.
>No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
>that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem
>to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell
>of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25
>years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my
>exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob &
>they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have
>been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the
>exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob.
>So I can never deny it is real.
Then you'll understand that since I haven't been able to verify any, in
the course of countless OBEs, I don't have any basis for assuming it is
real.
>I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are
>similar but not exact to obe.
For you that may be the case. For others they are virtually identical
except for the means of induction.
>I feel all dreams take place on some
>level of the astral.
>
>Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without
>sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up.
>Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of
>body, explain this?
>
> Conclusion OBE IS REAL
How about:
*Some* OBEs may be real. :-)
--
Alt.Out-of-Body Unlimited:
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html
The Lucid Dreaming Nook:
http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/nook1.html
pz
<8954-3ED...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
ELth...@webtv.net (Gary Wayne) wrote:
> A man in my home town was brain dead
> over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened.
> No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
No, I'm sorry, I don't believe you.
Without a heartbeat for 30 minutes, and without artifical means of
sustaining life, there would have been profound and widespread cell
death and the onset of decay. Revivification would have been
impossible.
Even if this were possible, the duration of the 'death' is
irrelevant. NDEs are imaginary constructs created by the brain
during the transition into consciousness or unconsciousness.
--
pz
jeh
"Gary Wayne" <ELth...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8954-3ED...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net...
<snip?
> Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without
> sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up.
> Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of
> body, explain this?
>
> Conclusion OBE IS REAL
>
> GW
of the blind and especially children. To me, reading young children's
experiences in NDE's and OOBE's are examples, proof positive, in the fact of
oobes, afterlife, etc. They have no reason to lie. They are not
preprogrammed with any information of heaven, hell, or what an OOBE is, or
is not, yet they experience them consistently in the same way they have been
experienced by all.
John
Celestial Sounds
And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for
someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality.
The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
Take care.
Celestial
(Darryl E. Berry Jr.)
Janice
Celestial...@hotmail.com says...
>And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for
>someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality.
>The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
Only if you get one that you can verify in some way. Not everyone does.
Gary Wayne
You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death.
The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
I don't really care if you believe me.
Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God
so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
body group if you don't believe in it?
GW
pz
<14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
ELth...@webtv.net (Gary Wayne) wrote:
> PZ,
>
> You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death.
> The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
Oy. What a loon.
> I don't really care if you believe me.
> Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> reports that your calling liars not me.
OK, maybe they were lying, and you aren't; you're just dim enough to
believe a ridiculous lie.
> But I doubt you believe in God
I definitely do not.
> so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> body group if you don't believe in it?
I've been through *this* nonsense before. Did you think you had to
swear an oath to only defend one point of view before you are
allowed to post here?
--
pz
Janice
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>In article <14b6a4e3.03052...@posting.google.com>,
>Celestial...@hotmail.com says...
>
>>And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for
>>someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality.
>>The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
>
>Only if you get one that you can verify in some way. Not everyone does.
When I was a teenager, I assumed that my OBEs were literal separations
simply because they felt like they were and because I had heard of such
things. It was only after I got brave enough to actually explore during
them and critically minded enough to question my assumptions that I
changed my mind. So experience is a very personal thing! :-)
Janice
ELth...@webtv.net says...
>Why be on an out of body group if you don't believe in it?
Why not? It's interesting to learn about other people's points of view,
and I for one enjoy OBEs as much as anyone else regardless of how I
happen to interpret them or what aspect of them I decide to focus on.
Trish
Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
Not as if this is relevent to the topic of OBEs ... but I really don't care.
Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
Trish
Janice <JayAVo...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.193c8b98e...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> In article <14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
> ELth...@webtv.net says...
>
> >Why be on an out of body group if you don't believe in it?
>
> Why not? It's interesting to learn about other people's points of view,
> and I for one enjoy OBEs as much as anyone else regardless of how I
> happen to interpret them or what aspect of them I decide to focus on.
>
Seriously! What the hell ... is there only one opinion allowed in here now?
LOL
BTW ... Hi Janice! I received that Hannibal link you sent over. Thanks.
: ) A bunch of people on my serial killer message board had a field day
with it.
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
Hi Trish!
You always seem to land in the middle of such a debate when you pop in.
:)
Trish
> In article <E9BAa.17507$rO.15...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
>
> Hi Trish!
>
> You always seem to land in the middle of such a debate when you pop in.
> :)
What can I say? I'm psychic! : )
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>BTW ... Hi Janice! I received that Hannibal link you sent over. Thanks.
> : ) A bunch of people on my serial killer message board had a field day
>with it.
Ha! Glad they enjoyed themselves.
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>What can I say? I'm psychic! : )
You must be--your reply is dated a minute earlier than my post! ;-)
Trish
Celestial Sounds <Celestial...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14b6a4e3.03052...@posting.google.com...
*coughbullsh*tcough*
What's fishy is that someone would simply accept the experience without
questioning what is going on.
Trish
> In article <qkBAa.17515$rO.15...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
> >
> >Janice <JayAVo...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.193cabefb...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> >What can I say? I'm psychic! : )
>
> You must be--your reply is dated a minute earlier than my post! ;-)
>
LOL! See .......... ??? You skeptics! (shaking head)
So what's been going on around these parts? Any specifically interesting
threads? Point me in the right direction.
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>So what's been going on around these parts? Any specifically interesting
>threads? Point me in the right direction.
Hmm, there's the "old hag syndrome" thread, and the "Accidental OBE"
thread, and "Question for All," and "OOB Experiences, didn't know what to
call them."
Ian H Spedding
<E9BAa.17507$rO.15...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> news:14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> >
> > PZ,
> >
> > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death.
> > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
> > I don't really care if you believe me.
> > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God
> > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> > body group if you don't believe in it?
> >
> > GW
>
> Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
>
> GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
> beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
> company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
> person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
It's interesting that the more fundamentalist they become the
less "Christian" they are.
> Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
What else? It's a bit like the trench warfare of World War One.
Welcome back, anyway, Trish! The old group has been through a
bit of a lean spell recently.
lorz
> In article <8954-3ED...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
> ELth...@webtv.net says...
> >I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not.
> >Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer.
> >However I must disagree with your conclusions.
>
> That's fine with me. Disagreement is a good thing. :-)
>
> >How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has
> >been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead
> >over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened.
> >No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
> >that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem
> >to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell
> >of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25
> >years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my
> >exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob &
> >they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have
> >been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the
> >exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob.
> >So I can never deny it is real.
>
> Then you'll understand that since I haven't been able to verify any, in
> the course of countless OBEs, I don't have any basis for assuming it is
> real.
I thought you have had some small verifications, Janice... no?
>
> >I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are
> >similar but not exact to obe.
>
> For you that may be the case. For others they are virtually identical
> except for the means of induction.
I have heard quite a few including myself and Richard for two that have made
the claim that OBE and LD are much different experiences.
>
> >I feel all dreams take place on some
> >level of the astral.
> >
> >Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without
> >sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up.
> >Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of
> >body, explain this?
> >
> > Conclusion OBE IS REAL
>
> How about:
>
> *Some* OBEs may be real. :-)
Oh great. Now what am I supposed to do with that? Do you *really* believe
some OBE's are real? As in literal?
lorz
"Trish" <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E9BAa.17507$rO.15...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Gary Wayne <ELth...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > PZ,
> >
> > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death.
> > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
> > I don't really care if you believe me.
> > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God
> > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> > body group if you don't believe in it?
> >
> > GW
> >
>
> Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
>
> GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
> beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
> company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
> person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
I'm not a religious fanatic nor do I even believe in organized religion but
I think the true "science only" believers can make a person's life hell too
;)
>
> Not as if this is relevent to the topic of OBEs ... but I really don't
care.
>
> Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
Yeh, it hasn't evolved into much of anything yet ;)
Good to see you Trish!
lorz
"Celestial Sounds" <Celestial...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14b6a4e3.03052...@posting.google.com...
> Great post Gary! Thanks. :)
>
> And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for
> someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality.
> The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
Oh not true at all. One of the biggest problems I see here is everyone
pushing their belief of their experience on others. I have had countless
OOBE experiences. All spontanious since childhood. Because I have doubts of
what exactly this experience is does not hardly negate my experience nor
make me fishy and I take great offense at your insinuation.
The experience itself does prove the reality of the experience only. It has
not proved to me one way or the other exactly what it is. If it has for you
then that's wonderful but don't offend me by saying my questioning of my
experiences as "fishy"
I can say at least the skeptics have pointed me to scientific explanations
and theorys to ponder. I would love for some of the true believers of
literal OBE to be able to assure me of what my experiences ar rather than
just stating that they are OBE's.
I'll probably be on the fence on this forever. If I ever do prove it to
myself I don't think I would try to make others believe it but would
honestly look for ways to provide evidence for it.
Trish
Ian H Spedding <ian_sp...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.193d1d00b...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
Oh so true.
> > Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
>
> What else? It's a bit like the trench warfare of World War One.
>
> Welcome back, anyway, Trish! The old group has been through a
> bit of a lean spell recently.
>
> Ian
Good "seeing" you Ian! Maybe I can litter the place up a bit. Give it that
"lived-in" look again. ; )
Trish
lorz <lo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:zWJAa.22175$r11....@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...
True. But I have yet to see an atheist/agnostic act the way they do ...
especially in the workplace! The relentless e-mails. The prayers over
their bologna sandwiches at lunchtime. The strange looks because I didn't
have a cross hanging in my office somewhere. And then they'd turn around
and screw their clients out of money.
Ah .. but that's all over now. I start a new job in about 3 weeks ... so
I'm taking some time off to recover.
> > Not as if this is relevent to the topic of OBEs ... but I really don't
> care.
> >
> > Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
>
> Yeh, it hasn't evolved into much of anything yet ;)
> Good to see you Trish!
Evolved. LOL
Good seeing you too! Missed you!
pz
<wVKAa.18868$Io.16...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Trish" <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> But I have yet to see an atheist/agnostic act the way they do ...
> especially in the workplace! The relentless e-mails. The prayers over
> their bologna sandwiches at lunchtime. The strange looks because I didn't
> have a cross hanging in my office somewhere. And then they'd turn around
> and screw their clients out of money.
Funny that you'd mention that.
I've been involved in a web forum, Internet Infidels <http://www.iidb.org/>, for a while. This is a group that is all about atheism, for
atheists. Strangely enough, though, it's lately been getting
infested with lots and lots of christians fleeing christian web
fora, because those places tend to be exceptionally restrictive,
nasty, and bigoted, while us atheists tend to be rather fanatical
about the defense of free speech.
For an example, take a look at this rather long-running thread about
"CF (christian forums) Outcasts"
<http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1004329#post1004005
>
A sample comment:
"i know, it's one thing I've always wondered. xianity supposedly
teaches compassion, love, forgiveness and all that corinthians style
jazz. however, when i peruse that place, all i see is hatred. the
irony of some christians claiming atheists are immoral scum and then
those same atheists being the warmest people i've found to date is
quite saddening and yet pleasing at the same time. quite the
paradox."
By the way, you're welcome to join any of the conversations there,
too. It's a big, fun place. OOB stuff has come up a few times, I've
noticed, but surprise, surprise, surprise...infidels tend to be
rather vociferous skeptics.
--
pz
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>> Then you'll understand that since I haven't been able to verify any, in
>> the course of countless OBEs, I don't have any basis for assuming it is
>> real.
>
>I thought you have had some small verifications, Janice... no?
No, nothing at all to suggest to me that I was literally out of my body.
What specifically are you thinking of?
>> >I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are
>> >similar but not exact to obe.
>>
>> For you that may be the case. For others they are virtually identical
>> except for the means of induction.
>
>I have heard quite a few including myself and Richard for two that have made
>the claim that OBE and LD are much different experiences.
Yes, for some people they are quite different experientially. But I've
heard quite a few people besides myself claim that for them they are not
very different. Such people are easier to find in lucid dream groups.
>> How about:
>>
>> *Some* OBEs may be real. :-)
>
>Oh great. Now what am I supposed to do with that? Do you *really* believe
>some OBE's are real? As in literal?
That's not what I said. I said that some may be real. Maybe literal, or
maybe involving some other paranormal mechanism. It's a possibility that
I remain open to, that's all. But I'm damn well not going to believe
that they all are.
Janice
>I have heard quite a few including myself and Richard for two that have made
>the claim that OBE and LD are much different experiences.
By the way, Richard has noticed that some of his OBEs are more dreamlike
than others, so unlike certain parties here, he's able to conceive that
some people's OBEs may well be different enough from other people's to
lead them to different conclusions.
Trish
pz <pzm...@pharyngula.org> wrote in message
news:pzmyers-140506...@news.fu-berlin.de...
"rather vociferous skeptics" .... without doubt! You're a moderator. I
would expect no less. (grin)
It is a rather extensive site, but I do like the forum selections. And I
read the thread you linked. Looks like an interesting group, especially the
evolution/creation section. I'll lurk for a bit and get a feel for the
place. When I sign up, I'll PM you.
Trish
jfred <d0...@petitm0rte.net> wrote in message
news:1fvmbbo.1oimmc21ixdpgwN%d0...@petitm0rte.net...
> Trish <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Gary Wayne <ELth...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> > news:14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > > PZ,
> > >
> > > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> > > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from
death.
> > > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of
God.
> > > I don't really care if you believe me.
> > > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> > > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in
God
> > > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> > > body group if you don't believe in it?
> > >
> > > GW
> > >
> >
> > Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
> >
> > GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
> > beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
> > company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
> > person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
>
> occasionally be talked into going to church (when I'm visiting my
> mother), I'll no longer accept the label of "Christian" because of the
> way the fucking fundamentalists have hijacked the term. I don't want to
> be mistaken for one of those spoon-fed hatemongers who have to be told
> by their corrupt and greedy leaders where to squat and lean at every
> turn... I can't believe you were able to stomach 10 months of that
> tripe.
The only way anyone would get me in a church would be to drag me kicking and
fighting. And since I've added Kung-Fu to my long list of interests, it
would be an interesting spectacle.
Last time I was in church, many years ago, I practically bit my tongue in
half attempting not to question/disrupt the Pastor in the middle of his
sermon. I was literally writhing in my seat.
No thanks. Never again. 10 months of secluding myself in my office has
been enough.
lorz
"jfred" <d0...@petitm0rte.net> wrote in message
news:1fvmbbo.1oimmc21ixdpgwN%d0...@petitm0rte.net...
> Trish <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > news:14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > > PZ,
> > >
> > > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> > > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from
death.
> > > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of
God.
> > > I don't really care if you believe me.
> > > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> > > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in
God
> > > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> > > body group if you don't believe in it?
> > >
> > > GW
> > >
> >
> > Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
> >
> > GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
> > beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
> > company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
> > person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
>
> occasionally be talked into going to church (when I'm visiting my
> mother), I'll no longer accept the label of "Christian" because of the
> way the fucking fundamentalists have hijacked the term.
I can understand that and is the reason I don't believe in organized
religion. But let's be fair here. To say *all* Christians are "bad" is as
wrong as labeling all non-Christians "bad". I think the extremest are the
ones we're speaking of here. I know many non- extremest Christians as well
as other religions who are fine and don't force their beliefs on you in any
way at all.
<snip>
Ian H Spedding
<wVKAa.18868$Io.16...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
[...]
> True. But I have yet to see an atheist/agnostic act the way they do ...
> especially in the workplace! The relentless e-mails. The prayers over
> their bologna sandwiches at lunchtime. The strange looks because I didn't
> have a cross hanging in my office somewhere. And then they'd turn around
> and screw their clients out of money.
...and you stood it for ten months? You have a stronger stomach
than I have.
It's really quite scary to see a faith which promotes humility,
charity and compassion - and opposes the acquisition of wealth -
used to cover straightforward greed and ambition with a veneer of
religious respectability. The word hypocrisy springs to mind.
Ian H Spedding
<bLKAa.18840$Io.16...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> Ian H Spedding <ian_sp...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.193d1d00b...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
[...]
> > Welcome back, anyway, Trish! The old group has been through a
> > bit of a lean spell recently.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Good "seeing" you Ian! Maybe I can litter the place up a bit. Give it that
> "lived-in" look again. ; )
Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
hooliganism. :-)
pz
pz
<o8XAa.20334$Io.17...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Trish" <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "rather vociferous skeptics" .... without doubt! You're a moderator. I
> would expect no less. (grin)
Well, don't make too much of it -- the administration is pretty
strict about how moderation can be done, and they expect me to be
polite, even to creationists. I haven't ripped anyone's throat out
in ages.
>
> It is a rather extensive site, but I do like the forum selections. And I
> read the thread you linked. Looks like an interesting group, especially the
> evolution/creation section. I'll lurk for a bit and get a feel for the
> place. When I sign up, I'll PM you.
They are a lively bunch, with a nice mix of some very smart people
and some incredible twits. They've recently reorganized, though, and
shut down some of the excessively social fora (without prejudice) in
order to support their "higher" fora a little better. There's a very
interesting splinter group that's established a rather rowdy site
elsewhere -- admission is a bit more restricted, and only wild-eyed
freethinkers are allowed. If you're interested, I can send you the
url for that, too.
--
pz
Janice
ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
>keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
>hooliganism. :-)
Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
alt.astrology and see what happens?
lorz
Now I'm really getting scared :Ş
Trish
> In article <MPG.193ee4461...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>
> >Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
> >keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
> >hooliganism. :-)
>
> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
> alt.astrology and see what happens?
>
Oh let's!! : D
(j/k)
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
>> alt.astrology and see what happens?
>>
>Oh let's!! : D
And don't neglect the snuh kiddies!
Trish
> In article
> <o8XAa.20334$Io.17...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Trish" <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > "rather vociferous skeptics" .... without doubt! You're a moderator. I
> > would expect no less. (grin)
>
> Well, don't make too much of it -- the administration is pretty
> strict about how moderation can be done, and they expect me to be
> polite, even to creationists. I haven't ripped anyone's throat out
> in ages.
I'm so sorry. That must be terrible for you.
All joking aside, I did sign up. I'm waiting for approval from the
moderators. I'll be on under the user name wildsimian. Chances are I will
lurk for a while. My lack of education on certain subjects offers me a
better position as a listener rather than a talker. But I've enjoyed
browsing the threads so far.
> > It is a rather extensive site, but I do like the forum selections. And
I
> > read the thread you linked. Looks like an interesting group, especially
the
> > evolution/creation section. I'll lurk for a bit and get a feel for the
> > place. When I sign up, I'll PM you.
>
> They are a lively bunch, with a nice mix of some very smart people
> and some incredible twits. They've recently reorganized, though, and
> shut down some of the excessively social fora (without prejudice) in
> order to support their "higher" fora a little better. There's a very
> interesting splinter group that's established a rather rowdy site
> elsewhere -- admission is a bit more restricted, and only wild-eyed
> freethinkers are allowed. If you're interested, I can send you the
> url for that, too.
Yes please, send me the url.
Internet message boards can be interesting. Being interested in the
criminal element, I signed up at PTO. Prison Talk Online. Unfortunately I
was banned within a week because I dared to suggest that the women might be
better off not writing to prison pen pals.
Other groups I belong to tell me I'm fairly cool-headed and pull my facts
together under pressure. My usual response, "I was raised by a pack of
skeptics."
Where is Sherilyn, btw? Has she been around lately?
John Mills
Hi All,
Nice to see the NG is in full swing again. Have been in 'lurk mode' for
several months. At one point I thought I had a problem with my news server
as very little was happening on this board!
Regarding your comments....
Know what you mean! I have a couple of cousins in the Jehovah Witnesses and
had some really hilarious conversations with them in the past!
No... they didn't convert me :-)
What really pisses me off is when people try to force their beliefs down
your throat in the workplace. A few years ago, a couple of employees
(so called Born again Christians... yuk) posted leaflets on the notice
board. The response must have been zero as emails were sent out to all
staff. This was the email:
You've seen the signs ....
You've read the word and ......
and still your hesitating !!!
Yes, next Tuesday at 10:15 am and next Wednsday at 7:30 pm we invite you
to come and join us in FINDING OUT ALL ABOUT JESUS. Yes, I know we've been
knocking you over the head about this for a week or so now but, have you
ever ASKED YOUSELF WHY I and others spend so much effort in doing so ?
(first sentence of my reply)
Precisely... This is THE thing which I find particulary irritating especially
with so called `Born Again Christians' :-(
I then went on with a long missive telling them where to shove their meetings.
I think only two persons attended. One was an atheist and the other went for
a dare :-)
Ian H Spedding
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> In article <zG8Ba.19704$rO.18...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
> >
> >Janice <JayAVo...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.193ec02fa...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> > > Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
> > > alt.astrology and see what happens?
> >
> > Oh let's!! : D
>
> And don't neglect the snuh kiddies!
"Snuh kiddies"?
Ian H Spedding
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> In article <MPG.193ee4461...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
> >
> >Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
> >keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
> >hooliganism. :-)
>
> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
> alt.astrology and see what happens?
Oooh, you're mean when you're roused! But you'll be sorry when
Ed Wollmann starts complaining to your ISP and reporting you for
net abuse.
Ian H Spedding
pzm...@pharyngula.org says...
I said "hooligamism" not 'weapons of mass destruction'!
Janice
ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>> And don't neglect the snuh kiddies!
>
>"Snuh kiddies"?
Have you forgotten the crossposts which would consist of nearly endless
threads containing juvenile rubbish revolving around the nonsense word
"snuh"? :-)
Janice
ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>In article <MPG.193ec02fa...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>>
>> In article <MPG.193ee4461...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
>> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>> >
>> >Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
>> >keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
>> >hooliganism. :-)
>>
>> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything to
>> alt.astrology and see what happens?
>
>Oooh, you're mean when you're roused!
Just reminding you of what true newsgroup mayhem is like!
>But you'll be sorry when
>Ed Wollmann starts complaining to your ISP and reporting you for
>net abuse.
Oh, I don't know; it might be a good test of my friendly relationship
with the head of the company. :)
BD
"Trish" <spirito...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E9BAa.17507$rO.15...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> news:14219-3ED...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > PZ,
> >
> > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a
> > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death.
> > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
> > I don't really care if you believe me.
> > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police
> > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God
> > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of
> > body group if you don't believe in it?
> >
> > GW
> >
>
> Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
>
> GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian
> beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small
> company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a
> person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
>
care.
>
> Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
>
>
Ahem.... (clearing throat...) As the One and Only High Priest of this court
(as our very astute Queen Janice hath dubbed me,... seein' how's I think I'm
the only actual ordained minister in here!).... I feel moved to utter just a
word or two, about that.
(Oh yeah,.... hiya Trishy!) ;)
You should have asked those so-called fundamentalists, why it is that
they're not being very fundamental! A very large percentage of "Christians"
simply need to believe in something (don't we all?), and simply take @ face
value, all of the things which were taught to them by their parents.
Without question. This has been going on for ages now. Most of them have
never even read the entire Bible... let alone gained any serious
comprehension of the many contradictions therein. So,.... just ask them
what they perceive to be the "number 1", bottom line basis for their belief
system.....and they will no doubt, without hesitation, proclaim that it is
Jesus Christ our Savior. After all, they "are" Christians,....yes? Then
they will probably quote you something that "Paul" said. Way after Jesus
was out of the picture,... and Paul never even knew the man, let alone
walked with Him.
Most of them are not Christians in the strictest sense of the term,... but
are rather.... "Paulinians". If Jesus was born into this world as the Son
of God, and for the purpose of giving the world a message.... shouldn't you
be listening to the things that He had to say? Following the examples that
He lived?
Or, then again.... perhaps there's some long-lost quote from Jesus, that
somehow never got added to the Bible? Hmmm? Maybe? I think it was; " I
go to prepare a place for you. In my Father's house are many mansions, but
I'm not going to tell you just yet, how to get there. I'm going to die
first, and then you can all just listen to what Paul says in my stead. I
have better things to do, just now." (Which is pretty ironic, because
Paul...then known as Saul,...was a #1 enemy of the Christian movement, until
his conversion.)
If you "really" want to be a true "Christian"... then you should follow, and
study, the Christ. Not Paul. Nor the Old Testament. Nor Revelations.
They are moot, for the mostpart. Jesus came into the world to give a
message. Why? Because they were getting it all wrong! So,...if you want
to be a true Christian....then just throw out the Old Testament, except as a
record of history...and a record of the prophets. Jesus came to the world,
and left His message, and then supposedly died on the cross after His
mission was completed. And so,... there endeth what He had to say "in the
flesh"! Mission complete! The Son of God Himself has come and gone.....and
you are quoting Paul??? You hippocrites!
That leaves us with the gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. The record
of Jesus's life on this earth. (There's much I could go into, about the
gospels...but I won't at this time.)
So,...if you want to be a "true" Christian you should be studying the
lifestyle, actions, and words of Jesus Himself. (Who,...by the way, was
never called "Jesus". That's a Mexican's name! If you could go back and
holler...."Hey Jesus!" at Him... He probably wouldn't even turn His head.
His Hebrew name was pronounced "Yeshua",...which was as common a name at
that time, as "John" is now!)
Yeshua....taught peace and love, even with your enemies. He lived it.
There is NO SUCH THING as a "Christian" war!
And just think about this one for a moment... from the lips of the
fundamentalist's, dogmatic, movement.... we are talking about the Godhead
Himself, in the FLESH, on this earth! To give us a message! And,....
Yeshua never, ever, ever, wrote down anything! (That we currently know of.
Yes, He could have. He was a very learned man! We do have mention of Him
writing in the dirt with a stick, but that is all.) Why do you suppose
Yeshua didn't write all this down, for the world to study? To keep? The
answer is very simple. Because the written word is way too corruptable by
mankind! It can be manipulated! Changed! Translated! Misinterpretted!
Used for selfish power! Nope.... Yeshua never wrote nothing. You just have
to talk to Him, yourself.
And what's up with all the crosses? Do you really think that Yeshua wants
to see another one of those???? Sheesh! Does Nixon want to see another
cassette tape? Does Sherilyn want to see another RPST??? :) I think not.
Seriously folks... the "cross" has become a physically worshipped material
item. As if it is divine. The symbol is worshipped. Both the 10
commandments and Yeshua, said that's a big NO-NO!
Yeshua was very clear upon His leaving the earth,...that He would then be
gone! He said so! And He left us in the hands of the Comforter, or the
Holy Spirit, to guide us. To commune with us. You can hear Him....He's
that "small voice within". (Of course, there are "others", too!) But a
"true" Christian should be listening to the Holy Spirit.... not the written,
ancient, non-living words of Paul.
Don't you think?
Just ask them, that.
The Reverend
BD
Ian H Spedding
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> In article <MPG.193f4e568...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
> >
> >In article <MPG.193ee726c...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> >JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> >> And don't neglect the snuh kiddies!
> >
> >"Snuh kiddies"?
>
> Have you forgotten the crossposts which would consist of nearly endless
> threads containing juvenile rubbish revolving around the nonsense word
> "snuh"? :-)
D'oh!
Trish
BD <bdy...@mhtc.net> wrote in message
news:jYdBa.2487$Ly2.4...@cletus.bright.net...
BD!!!!
Hiya. : )
I'm sorry rev'rund, but you have competition. Under the guiding hand of the
Reverend Xatar I have come to realize the truth. Jesus was an alien.
http://www.webcity.com.au/jesusalien/
(Mexican name ... writing in dirt with a stick .. Sher and the RPST .....
you crack me up!) LOL!
lorz
"Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.193d732a6...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> In article <gSJAa.22142$r11....@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> >I have heard quite a few including myself and Richard for two that have
made
> >the claim that OBE and LD are much different experiences.
>
> By the way, Richard has noticed that some of his OBEs are more dreamlike
> than others, so unlike certain parties here, he's able to conceive that
> some people's OBEs may well be different enough from other people's to
> lead them to different conclusions.
Unlike certain parties?
I think most OBE's do seem to be different to many people , or at least what
they consider to be an OBE. Which is why I think it is a level of
consciousness being reached by everyone.
pz
"BD" <bdy...@mhtc.net> wrote:
> That leaves us with the gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. The record
> of Jesus's life on this earth. (There's much I could go into, about the
> gospels...but I won't at this time.)
The Gospels are pretty much a fantasy story.
There is really only one, Mark. The others are retellings. Mark
itself is written, reorganized story derived from a lost oral
tradition, written a generation after the death of the christian
prophet.
There is no reason to think of any of it as any more true than the
myths about Anansi or Coyote or Balder or Osiris. If there was a
historical Jesus, he was just another babbling nutcase who got
annoying enough to get himself killed. The only difference between
him and a thousand other similar loons is that he had a better
publicist.
--
pz
Trish
me .....
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html
And I thought of you BD. I remember us talking about this some time in the
past.
Trish
But he was such a sweet babbling nutcase. Look at the hardships he had to
endure. Growing up under the umbrella of the Old Testament ... um .. God ..
was bad enough. But his poor mother got knocked up before she was married.
What else could they do but proclaim him to be the messiah?
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>> By the way, Richard has noticed that some of his OBEs are more dreamlike
>> than others, so unlike certain parties here, he's able to conceive that
>> some people's OBEs may well be different enough from other people's to
>> lead them to different conclusions.
>
>Unlike certain parties?
Yes, some people have posted recently that they think the OB experience
speaks for itself and anyone who has one would simply know it was real,
therefore anyone who says they had one yet doesn't believe it must have
been real didn't really have one. In fact you were offended by one such
post.
>I think most OBE's do seem to be different to many people , or at least what
>they consider to be an OBE. Which is why I think it is a level of
>consciousness being reached by everyone.
They may well seem to be very different if you focus only on the
transitional phase that starts off an OBE, which is unfortunately where
you, Lorene, are always obliged to stop, since your SP experiences are so
scary. The experiences start converging after that point, more so for
some than for others of course. Plus one has to probe a bit to find out
if someone who says they have had both OBEs and lucid dreams has *really*
had lucid dreams, or only semi-lucid dreams. If their regular lucid
dreams have only been semi-lucid then naturally there will be a bigger
difference between their OBEs and their LDs than there is for someone who
has actually had a high degree of lucidity in conventional lucid dreams.
And vice versa, too; some people have a higher degree of lucidity in
their OBEs than other people.
Not that lucidity can easily be quantified, but just to illustrate the
point, try looking at it this way. If someone is, say, 80% lucid in both
OBEs and regular LDs, their OBEs and LDs may seem pretty similar to them.
If someone is 99% lucid in their OBEs and 60% lucid in their regular
dreams, they might well consider the experiences to be two completely
different altered states. But it's really all in the way they are
experiencing them.
Trish
> In article <70oBa.1593$u64....@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com>,
> lo...@bellsouth.net says...
> >
> >"Janice" <not...@not-here.net> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.193d732a6...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> >> By the way, Richard has noticed that some of his OBEs are more
dreamlike
> >> than others, so unlike certain parties here, he's able to conceive that
> >> some people's OBEs may well be different enough from other people's to
> >> lead them to different conclusions.
> >
> >Unlike certain parties?
>
> Yes, some people have posted recently that they think the OB experience
> speaks for itself and anyone who has one would simply know it was real,
> therefore anyone who says they had one yet doesn't believe it must have
> been real didn't really have one. In fact you were offended by one such
> post.
And none of these people have ever experienced discrepancies, or fluctuation
in memory recall or levels of awareness?
Janice, you know well that many of my OBEs have been environmentally stable,
with extremely high memory recall. Yet even I wouldn't consider them
"literal".
How could I, with no evidence? How could they?
Please tell me we're not back to the "literal" OBEs again. No wonder there
are so many arguments for evidence.
> >I think most OBE's do seem to be different to many people , or at least
what
> >they consider to be an OBE. Which is why I think it is a level of
> >consciousness being reached by everyone.
>
> They may well seem to be very different if you focus only on the
> transitional phase that starts off an OBE, which is unfortunately where
> you, Lorene, are always obliged to stop, since your SP experiences are so
> scary. The experiences start converging after that point, more so for
> some than for others of course. Plus one has to probe a bit to find out
> if someone who says they have had both OBEs and lucid dreams has *really*
> had lucid dreams, or only semi-lucid dreams. If their regular lucid
> dreams have only been semi-lucid then naturally there will be a bigger
> difference between their OBEs and their LDs than there is for someone who
> has actually had a high degree of lucidity in conventional lucid dreams.
> And vice versa, too; some people have a higher degree of lucidity in
> their OBEs than other people.
>
> Not that lucidity can easily be quantified, but just to illustrate the
> point, try looking at it this way. If someone is, say, 80% lucid in both
> OBEs and regular LDs, their OBEs and LDs may seem pretty similar to them.
> If someone is 99% lucid in their OBEs and 60% lucid in their regular
> dreams, they might well consider the experiences to be two completely
> different altered states. But it's really all in the way they are
> experiencing them.
>
I guess I'm in the 99-60 percentile (for debate's sake) then.
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>And none of these people have ever experienced discrepancies, or fluctuation
>in memory recall or levels of awareness?
Maybe, but if someone really believes that the separation was literal, he
or she can think of something to account for the discrepancies--the OBEs
took place on the astral plane, or in an alternate universe, or there was
dream imagery mixed in with the real perceptions. Even my own early
LD/OBE journal from 1984 contains lines like, "I entered a very nearly
real plane" and "I got up in spirit form." :-)
>> Not that lucidity can easily be quantified, but just to illustrate the
>> point, try looking at it this way. If someone is, say, 80% lucid in both
>> OBEs and regular LDs, their OBEs and LDs may seem pretty similar to them.
>> If someone is 99% lucid in their OBEs and 60% lucid in their regular
>> dreams, they might well consider the experiences to be two completely
>> different altered states. But it's really all in the way they are
>> experiencing them.
>
>I guess I'm in the 99-60 percentile (for debate's sake) then.
Yes, I had you in mind there, and me for the 80-80.
Trish
> In article <bUtBa.24508$Io.20...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >And none of these people have ever experienced discrepancies, or
fluctuation
> >in memory recall or levels of awareness?
>
> Maybe, but if someone really believes that the separation was literal, he
> or she can think of something to account for the discrepancies--the OBEs
> took place on the astral plane, or in an alternate universe, or there was
> dream imagery mixed in with the real perceptions. Even my own early
> LD/OBE journal from 1984 contains lines like, "I entered a very nearly
> real plane" and "I got up in spirit form." :-)
Alternate universe. That's one of my favorites. All of the little minor
discrepancies ..... a window being out of place (in the other universe the
apartment was made that way!) .... objects being there that you don't own
(wow, I wonder where I was when I picked that up?).
It's fun to imagine. But I think that finding out how the brain produces
these images is a lot more fascinating, even if it is a hiccough during the
transition from awake to asleep.
Celestial Sounds
Thank you for your replies.
Great replies Janice. I haven't put the OBE to critical tests to the
level to which you all propose. I promise to explore and question more
during them.
And to lorz, great and thoughtful post. I do agree that there is much,
much more belief and theory pushing than experience and proof pushing
here.
Why would you look for ways to provide evidence for it? What ways, or
how, would evidence have to be provided for you to be proof to you?
Please voice all of them.
Thank you all for your posts. Please reply, at least to let me know
you got my reply.
Cheers.
Darryl E. Berry Jr. (Celestial)
Janice
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>Alternate universe. That's one of my favorites. All of the little minor
>discrepancies ..... a window being out of place (in the other universe the
>apartment was made that way!) .... objects being there that you don't own
>(wow, I wonder where I was when I picked that up?).
What I'd like to know is why the electricity so rarely works properly in
these alternate universes. :-)
Ian H Spedding
<X1qBa.21057$rO.19...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
Except that even that story arose from mistranslating the Hebrew
word for 'maiden' as 'virgin'.
Ian H Spedding
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> In article <H6zBa.24960$Io.20...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> > Alternate universe. That's one of my favorites. All of the little minor
> > discrepancies ..... a window being out of place (in the other universe the
> > apartment was made that way!) .... objects being there that you don't own
> > (wow, I wonder where I was when I picked that up?).
>
> What I'd like to know is why the electricity so rarely works properly in
> these alternate universes. :-)
You forgot to pay the bill?
Trish
Probably didn't want anyone to confuse her with Robin Hood's girlfriend.
That would have been a scandal! : P
lorz
"Janice" <JayAVo...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.194064f4f...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> In article <bUtBa.24508$Io.20...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >And none of these people have ever experienced discrepancies, or
fluctuation
> >in memory recall or levels of awareness?
>
> Maybe, but if someone really believes that the separation was literal, he
> or she can think of something to account for the discrepancies--the OBEs
> took place on the astral plane, or in an alternate universe, or there was
> dream imagery mixed in with the real perceptions. Even my own early
> LD/OBE journal from 1984 contains lines like, "I entered a very nearly
> real plane" and "I got up in spirit form." :-)
>
> >> Not that lucidity can easily be quantified, but just to illustrate the
> >> point, try looking at it this way. If someone is, say, 80% lucid in
both
> >> OBEs and regular LDs, their OBEs and LDs may seem pretty similar to
them.
> >> If someone is 99% lucid in their OBEs and 60% lucid in their regular
> >> dreams, they might well consider the experiences to be two completely
> >> different altered states. But it's really all in the way they are
> >> experiencing them.
> >
> >I guess I'm in the 99-60 percentile (for debate's sake) then.
>
> Yes, I had you in mind there, and me for the 80-80.
>
I know you are but what am I? ;)
I feel like I must be 99-40 . Ya think?
lorz
> In article <H6zBa.24960$Io.20...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >Alternate universe. That's one of my favorites. All of the little minor
> >discrepancies ..... a window being out of place (in the other universe
the
> >apartment was made that way!) .... objects being there that you don't own
> >(wow, I wonder where I was when I picked that up?).
>
> What I'd like to know is why the electricity so rarely works properly in
> these alternate universes. :-)
>
The thing I *still* get confused on is if this is *your* dream and you are
lucidly controlling it and you turn on the light switch with all intentions
of it turning on, then shouldn't it? I know you explained this to me once
before but can you again please?
lorz
"Celestial Sounds" <Celestial...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14b6a4e3.03052...@posting.google.com...
> Hey all.
>
> Thank you for your replies.
>
> Great replies Janice. I haven't put the OBE to critical tests to the
> level to which you all propose. I promise to explore and question more
> during them.
>
> And to lorz, great and thoughtful post. I do agree that there is much,
> much more belief and theory pushing than experience and proof pushing
> here.
>
> Why would you look for ways to provide evidence for it?
To know for sure I suppose.
>What ways, or how, would evidence have to be provided for you to be proof
to you?
That I'm not sure of. I know I have had a few experiences that have felt
100% real at the time. The one's where I never even felt I went to sleep at
all before the spontanious symptoms just started happening. At the time of
these experiences I am just so sure that they are real. I am repeating to
myself during them "sheese, I'm not even asleep. This has to be real. I know
what's going on.." etc. I think the best evidence for me would be to be
given some insight into perhaps the future. Even if it were something simple
like what tomorrow is going to be. Or maybe meeting up with someone else and
being able to verify and validate that we indeed had met up. Or even the
simple test the sceptics have requested of reading something somewhere else
unknown or seeing a playing card somewhere.
There's just too many doubts after the experience even though while it is
occuring it really does *feel* 100% real.
> Please voice all of them.
>
> Thank you all for your posts. Please reply, at least to let me know
> you got my reply.
>
OK!
Sherilyn
> In article <MPG.193ee4461...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>
> >Good idea. Janice means well but she's a bit of a mother hen -
> >keeps the place so neat and tidy. We could do with a bit of
> >hooliganism. :-)
>
> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything
> to alt.astrology and see what happens?
Please, don't even _joke_ about it. :)
--
Sherilyn
Sherilyn
>
> I've been involved in a web forum, Internet Infidels
> <http://www.iidb.org/>, for a while. This is a group that is all
> about atheism, for atheists. Strangely enough, though, it's lately
> been getting infested with lots and lots of christians fleeing
> christian web fora, because those places tend to be exceptionally
> restrictive, nasty, and bigoted, while us atheists tend to be rather
> fanatical about the defense of free speech.
Ah, sounds a bit like the way the Freepers swarm into the Guardian
Unlimited group. In their case I think it's because it's really
boring agreeing with one another about how wonderful whatever nonsense
Rush Limbaugh or his loony mates in the Administration have been
gibbering is. So they come to Guardian Unlimited and tell the
collected masses of British liberals that they're all extreme leftists
and are responsible for 9/11, etc. But some good discussions do come
out of it, caricatures aside.
I just registered at iidb, I find that much of Usenet is just flame
wars these days, I even managed to get flamed on afp for stating
categorically that Klingons did not exist. <sigh> I thought that was
a pretty safe statement.
--
Sherilyn
Sherilyn
[...]
>
> Where is Sherilyn, btw? Has she been around lately?
>
Not much, but I do lurk a bit. I'll PM you on iidb.
--
Sherilyn
pz
Sherilyn <sher...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> I just registered at iidb, I find that much of Usenet is just flame
> wars these days, I even managed to get flamed on afp for stating
> categorically that Klingons did not exist. <sigh> I thought that was
> a pretty safe statement.
Well, there *are* flame wars on iidb, too. And a few hardcore
trekkies, as well. Tread carefully everywhere.
--
pz
Janice
ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
>> these alternate universes. :-)
>
>You forgot to pay the bill?
Dammit, that must be it! If I keep gallivanting around between universes
it's going to be hard to keep track of all the paperwork.
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>I feel like I must be 99-40 . Ya think?
Something like that, but maybe higher than a 40 (it's hard to say with a
completely subjective rating that was just for the sake of example!).
Are your lucid dreams pretty muddled, with just a general understanding
that you're dreaming and little self-control?
Sherilyn
I knew it. I'm the one out of step with my nutty materialist ideas
about a distinction between fantasy and reality.
--
Sherilyn
Sherilyn
> All joking aside, I did sign up. I'm waiting for approval from the
> moderators. I'll be on under the user name wildsimian.>
Check your User CP for PM. :)
--
Sherilyn
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>> What I'd like to know is why the electricity so rarely works properly in
>> these alternate universes. :-)
>
>The thing I *still* get confused on is if this is *your* dream and you are
>lucidly controlling it and you turn on the light switch with all intentions
>of it turning on, then shouldn't it? I know you explained this to me once
>before but can you again please?
Sure. There are a number of different things that could be involved
here, I think. One is that no matter how lucid you are you're not
controlling every single detail of your dream consciously. When we flick
a switch in reality, it's a pretty unthinking behavior. In a dream,
though, the switch is not connected to the household wiring and the power
plant across town, because there isn't any. It's all mental, and for a
change to occur some mental input may be needed, not just a reflexive
action. This is probably why some lucid dreamers have better luck if
they actually will the light to come on, or put in a verbal request like
"Increase lighting level now!"
Additionally, all kinds of suggestion factors are affecting what happens
in a dream. One of these appears to be the scene as it currently looks.
Many lucid dreamers find it difficult to change something in a scene
while they are still focused on the scene as it currently looks. They
need to turn around, look away then back, or just allow some time to
pass, before what they wanted to happen actually happens. It could be
that a change in lighting level is just so drastic that it's usually not
easy for it to happen instantaneously as it does in waking. Your brain
would have to instantly create a lot of imagery in great detail where a
moment before only vague, dark shapes were suggested.
On the other hand, since it can also be hard to turn dream lights OFF,
not just ON, it's could be that lighting level in dreams is connected to
something physiological, such as the relative activation level of the
visual system of the brain, but this needs to be investigated. I think
LaBerge suggested it as a possibility one time.
Janice
sher...@suespammers.org says...
>Janice <JayAVo...@netscape.net> writes:
>> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting everything
>> to alt.astrology and see what happens?
>
>Please, don't even _joke_ about it. :)
Is it as wild as ever over there? :)
Sherilyn
> In article <87n0h4j...@happy.minority-report.co.uk>,
> sher...@suespammers.org says...
> >Janice <JayAVo...@netscape.net> writes:
>
> >> Itching for a row, are you? Shall we start cross-posting
> >> everything to alt.astrology and see what happens?
> >
> >Please, don't even _joke_ about it. :)
>
> Is it as wild as ever over there? :)
>
I have no idea. It was absolute bedlam last time I lurked, but that
was some time ago.
--
Sherilyn
pz
Sherilyn <sher...@suespammers.org> wrote:
Yeah, that alt.fan.pratchett is an iron-walled bastion of realists,
that's for sure.
--
pz
Trish
Sherilyn <sher...@suespammers.org> wrote in message
news:87fzmwj...@happy.minority-report.co.uk...
There you are! I'll go check my PMs.
Ian H Spedding
<SEIBa.22379$rO.20...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
spirito...@earthlink.net says...
>
> Ian H Spedding <ian_sp...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19411fa43...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
> >
> > In article
> > <X1qBa.21057$rO.19...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> > spirito...@earthlink.net says...
[...]
> > > But he was such a sweet babbling nutcase. Look at the hardships
> > > he had to endure. Growing up under the umbrella of the Old Testament
> > > ... um .. God .. was bad enough. But his poor mother got knocked
> > > up before she was married.
> > > What else could they do but proclaim him to be the messiah?
> >
> > Except that even that story arose from mistranslating the Hebrew
> > word for 'maiden' as 'virgin'.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Probably didn't want anyone to confuse her with Robin Hood's girlfriend.
> That would have been a scandal! : P
I don't see why. That would have made Christ English and, since
we all know that God is British, it all makes perfect sense. :)
Ian H Spedding
JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
>
> In article <MPG.194121b5a...@news.CIS.DFN.DE>,
> ian_sp...@lineone.net says...
> >
> > In article <MPG.1940c5865...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > JayAVo...@netscape.net says...
[...]
> > > What I'd like to know is why the electricity so rarely works
> > > properly in these alternate universes. :-)
> >
> > You forgot to pay the bill?
>
> Dammit, that must be it! If I keep gallivanting around between universes
> it's going to be hard to keep track of all the paperwork.
...or maybe it's just a case of "batteries not included".
pz
That's not right. God is an American -- Trent Reznor and David Bowie
tell me so.
--
pz
Trish
Forget Reznor and Bowie. It's apparent our own President knows God
personally.
Janice
Celestial...@hotmail.com says...
>Why would you look for ways to provide evidence for it?
Because I think it would be nice to know for sure if something other than
a purely subjective mental simulation was going on.
>What ways, or
>how, would evidence have to be provided for you to be proof to you?
I'm still hoping to have my own verifiable OBEs, as opposed to anyone
giving me evidence of theirs.
Janice
lo...@bellsouth.net says...
>That I'm not sure of. I know I have had a few experiences that have felt
>100% real at the time. The one's where I never even felt I went to sleep at
>all before the spontanious symptoms just started happening. At the time of
>these experiences I am just so sure that they are real. I am repeating to
>myself during them "sheese, I'm not even asleep. This has to be real. I know
>what's going on.." etc.
As a teenager, I used to assume that if I felt fully conscious it meant
that what I was experiencing must be real and exactly as I interpreted it
at the time, whether an OBE, or a demonic attack, or a psychic vision, or
a visit to the land of the dead, or whatever. I'm glad it finally sank
in that things might be other than they seem.
Ian H Spedding
d0...@petitm0rte.net says...
> Eden" actually translates to "Lake District."
I hope you enjoyed it. It's a lovely part of the country
although it does tend to be on the rainy side - hence all the
lakes. My mum, brother and three uncles all live up there.
> (BTW, I "met" your celebrity gardener, Titchmarch, last week while
> hiking along Hadrian's Wall in Northumberland -- they just missed Robin
> Hood's tree!)
God save me from gardening shows! There are times over here when
the TV schedules are wall-to-wall gardening, DIY or house
"makeover" shows. I swear it's only a matter of time before we
get a half-hour of watching paint dry!
Ian H Spedding
> > In article <1fw2nzx.1e7wyq6jufeixN%d0...@petitm0rte.net>,
> > d0...@petitm0rte.net says...
[...]
> > > (BTW, I "met" your celebrity gardener, Titchmarch, last week while
> > > hiking along Hadrian's Wall in Northumberland -- they just missed Robin
> > > Hood's tree!)
> >
> > God save me from gardening shows! There are times over here when the TV
> > schedules are wall-to-wall gardening, DIY or house "makeover" shows. I
> > swear it's only a matter of time before we get a half-hour of watching
> > paint dry!
>
> Well, it's a shame the helicopter missed, then, I suppose. ;) I'll
> have to plead jetlag, as I failed to include the reason I mentioned
> Titchmarsh (and I misspelled his name) -- I was there when his helicoper
> crashed into the landscape along Hadrian's Wall:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/do5e
Damn! Missed again!