RFD: comp.lang.coldfusion
Dave Hodder
unmoderated group comp.lang.coldfusion
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of
the worldwide unmoderated newsgroup comp.lang.coldfusion. This is not
a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural
details are below.
Newsgroup line:
comp.lang.coldfusion ColdFusion web application development.
RATIONALE: comp.lang.coldfusion
The currently existing newsgroup alt.comp.lang.coldfusion is well
used. Not all news servers carry alt.* or alt.comp.lang.coldfusion,
however, essentially cutting off parts of the ColdFusion community.
Almost all servers carry the comp.* groups, however, which would make
the proposed group more accessible to users.
First released in 1995, ColdFusion was the first ever web application
server, with it's ColdFusion Markup Language being the first
programming language designed specifically for server-side web
application development. Now robust and scalable, there are multiple
implementions of ColdFusion available, including ColdFusion 5 and
ColdFusion MX from Macromedia, and the BlueDragon product family from
New Atlanta. With it's level of maturity, a group in the comp.lang.*
hierarchy seems appropriate.
Finally, many news servers give posts to comp.* groups a longer
retention period than posts to alt.* groups, which would be an
additional benefit.
CHARTER: comp.lang.coldfusion
comp.lang.coldfusion is an unmoderated newsgroup for the discussion of
ColdFusion Markup Language (CFML) and CFScript. Whilst primarily
focussed around ColdFusion programming, ColdFusion configuration
issues involving products such as ColdFusion Server and BlueDragon
Server are also considered on-topic.
Other topics which may be discussed in the context of the ColdFusion
environment include: development tools such as Dreamweaver and
ColdFusion Studio; CFX/JSP custom tags and external objects; and
frameworks/design patterns such as Fusebox and MVC. General web
development discussion unrelated to ColdFusion is off-topic and
belongs in a more appropriate group.
Posts must be readable as plain text. Binary posts are not permitted,
with the exception of cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP), which may
be used where appropriate.
Relevant commercial posts are acceptable, but should be limited to one
per month per product.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
alt.comp.lang.coldfusion
comp.infosystems.www.misc
Proponent: Dave Hodder <d...@dmh.org.uk>
ru.ig...@usask.ca
I'm a news.groups regular. Like most of the regulars here, I usually
don't vote on proposals. However, I've got some comments and questions
for you (the proponent) which you might want to consider incorporating
your responses to in the next draft of your RFD ("2nd RFD:...").
In news.groups Dave Hodder <d...@dmh.org.uk> wrote:
> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> unmoderated group comp.lang.coldfusion
>Newsgroup line:
>comp.lang.coldfusion ColdFusion web application development.
>RATIONALE: comp.lang.coldfusion
>The currently existing newsgroup alt.comp.lang.coldfusion is well
>used. Not all news servers carry alt.* or alt.comp.lang.coldfusion,
>however, essentially cutting off parts of the ColdFusion community.
>Almost all servers carry the comp.* groups, however, which would make
>the proposed group more accessible to users.
I don't have much of a problem with your rationale. However, I'm
curious about if the readers of the alt.* CF group are backing
you in this endeavour. Sometimes readers of an alt.* group are
reluctant to move to a new group because, well, the alt.* gruop
is already established, even though perhaps not as well propogated.
If this proposal was initiated by some sort of consensus, then,
woohoo, go for it. Otherwise, you may be in for a surprise
defeat. (Note: I'm not saying you will be defeated. Rather,
you may not get the result you expected.)
Oh yeah, if the readers are supporting you, go ahead and add a
sentence or two indicating this. Maybe even note the highpoints
of the discussion, as this may help voters who missed the discussion
to make up their minds.
ru
--
My standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
is more or less irrelevant in creating a new Big-8 newsgroup.
Usenet popularity is the primary consideration.
Dean Kent
news:bh0nfi$i6p$1...@tribune.usask.ca...
> Hello,
> I'm a news.groups regular. Like most of the regulars here, I usually
> don't vote on proposals. However, I've got some comments and questions
> for you (the proponent) which you might want to consider incorporating
> your responses to in the next draft of your RFD ("2nd RFD:...").
>
[snip]
>
> Oh yeah, if the readers are supporting you, go ahead and add a
> sentence or two indicating this. Maybe even note the highpoints
> of the discussion, as this may help voters who missed the discussion
> to make up their minds.
Not being too familiar with all of the protocols involved - would this group
be where any resulting vote would occur? Is there an existing document
regarding the comp hierarchy that provides any guidelines on naming
conventions for groups?
TIA.
Regards,
Dean
Dave Hodder
<snip/>
> I don't have much of a problem with your rationale. However, I'm
> curious about if the readers of the alt.* CF group are backing
> you in this endeavour. Sometimes readers of an alt.* group are
> reluctant to move to a new group because, well, the alt.* gruop
> is already established, even though perhaps not as well propogated.
> If this proposal was initiated by some sort of consensus, then,
> woohoo, go for it. Otherwise, you may be in for a surprise
> defeat. (Note: I'm not saying you will be defeated. Rather,
> you may not get the result you expected.)
>
> Oh yeah, if the readers are supporting you, go ahead and add a
> sentence or two indicating this. Maybe even note the highpoints
> of the discussion, as this may help voters who missed the discussion
> to make up their minds.
Hello,
I initially raised the subject of a comp.lang.coldfusion newsgroup on
the alt.* group -- see <news:slrnbipp...@armaros.dmh.org.uk> or
<http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=slrnbipp60.r0.dmh%40armaros.dmh.org.uk>.
The reactions to the suggestion seemed good, with no-one expressing
unhappiness with the idea of a ColdFusion group under comp.*. The
suggested charter, as it appears here, was accepted; a permissive
charter allowing both ColdFusion programming discussion and ColdFusion
configuration discussion seems to be what people want, as it is in the
spirit of the charter for alt.comp.lang.coldfusion.
One part of the discussion was whether comp.lang.coldfusion is actually
the best name for the group. Kasey Chang pointed out that the main
language of a ColdFusion application is actually CFML (ColdFusion Markup
Language -- though strictly speaking I'd say CFML is a programming
language rather than a markup language, but I digress). So,
comp.lang.cfml was suggested. CFML isn't the only ColdFusion language
however; it has an alternate syntax similiar to ECMAScript/JavaScript,
which is known as CFScript -- so comp.lang.cfml+cfscript might be
another possibility.
I personally feel comp.lang.cfml[+cfscript] is not the best name for the
group; comp.lang.coldfusion IMHO is the pragmatic choice, as most people
refer to "ColdFusion programming" and being a "ColdFusion programmer";
if the group doesn't have "coldfusion" in it's name I fear not enough
people will find it, which will limit it's success. I think a fair
number of people on alt.comp.lang.coldfusion agree with me on this.
Finally Dean Kent suggested "something like comp.webapp.coldfusion".
There isn't a comp.webapp.* subhierarchy, but I take his point; the
nearest comp.* has is comp.infosystems.www.*. I could change the
proposal to comp.infosystems.www.authoring.[coldfusion|cfml] or
comp.infosystems.www.servers.[coldfusion|cfml] if that's what people
want, but I still personally feel that comp.lang.coldfusion is the best
choice.
If a second RFD is required I'll add something to this effect in the
rationale.
Many thanks,
Dave
Dave Hodder
>
> Not being too familiar with all of the protocols involved - would this group
> be where any resulting vote would occur? Is there an existing document
> regarding the comp hierarchy that provides any guidelines on naming
> conventions for groups?
Hi,
This group is for the official discussion of the proposal. Voting is
done via email -- you'll (hopefully) see a CFV (Call For Votes)
cross-posted here and in alt.comp.lang.coldfusion before the end of the
year, which will have full instructions and the voting ballot. ;o)
For a complete list of Big Eight newsgroups (Big Eight being the eight
main newsgroup heirarchies, including comp.*) see the "checkgroups"
file posted here and in news.announce.newgroups with the subject "List
of Bight Eight Newsgroups". Also possibly of interest:
A useful "drill-down" interface to comp.* groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?group=comp
Guidelines for Big Eight Newsgroup Creation:
http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html
Regards,
Dave
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Dave Hodder <d...@dmh.org.uk> wrote:
>
>One part of the discussion was whether comp.lang.coldfusion is
>actually the best name for the group. Kasey Chang pointed out
>that the main language of a ColdFusion application is actually
>CFML (ColdFusion Markup Language -- though strictly speaking I'd
>say CFML is a programming language rather than a markup language,
>but I digress). So, comp.lang.cfml was suggested. CFML isn't
>the only ColdFusion language however; it has an alternate syntax
>similiar to ECMAScript/JavaScript, which is known as CFScript -- so
>comp.lang.cfml+cfscript might be another possibility.
>
>I personally feel comp.lang.cfml[+cfscript] is not the best name for
>the group; comp.lang.coldfusion IMHO is the pragmatic choice, as most
>people refer to "ColdFusion programming" and being a "ColdFusion
>programmer"; if the group doesn't have "coldfusion" in it's name I fear
>not enough people will find it, which will limit it's success. I think
>a fair number of people on alt.comp.lang.coldfusion agree with me on
>this.
Agreed with all of this. I'd recommend considering
comp.soft-sys.coldfusion
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2003 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
You don't come here to see us, you just want to visit our bathroom.
Dean Kent
news:bh2vur$428$1...@panix1.panix.com...
>
> Agreed with all of this. I'd recommend considering
> comp.soft-sys.coldfusion
That certainly seems more appropriate than comp.lang, but after poking
around Google groups for various hints and tips on the soft-sys hierarchy, I
found this comment that also has some wisdom:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.soft-sys+faq+group:news.groups&hl=en&
lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3mk92j%24e0o%40news-2.csn.net&rnum=49:
Consider this statement from David Wright's "DRAFT FAQ: Guidelines
on Usenet Newsgroup Names":
"...It is often better to put a new group with others in an
approximately right 'place' than to insist on getting the
name precise at the expense of putting the group in some
obscure area that many potential users will not look at."
So, it could be argued that most people searching for cold fusion info would
be wanting coding stuff, which might justify using comp.lang.coldfusion -
but those (possibly few) looking for
installation/tuning/security/comparisons/etc. may not think to look there.
There are two things I have a bit of trouble with in this situation:
1) Cold Fusion isn't really a 'language' as much as it is a web server. It
isn't even a development environment, it is a runtime environment. There
*are* development environments that one can use to code cfml, and there is
at least one other application server that will interpret cfml (as well as
other 'web languages'). Depending on how widespread/important the
application server becomes, I can see the potential that eventually the
group would need to be split into subgroups for administration, development
environments, cfml language, etc. There is also the issue that the Blue
Dragon web server will handle cfml.
2) It seems that most of the web application discussion has remained in the
alt.* hierarchy. This suggests to me that the comp.* hierarchy is somewhat
'behind' in that appropriate second (or third) level nodes don't exist for
such groups to easily fit into. The process of having to create each node
level individually is likely a deterrent, because the desire is going to be
to create the newsgroup as quickly as possible. The end result seems to be
that many groups are 'force fit' into a hierarchy that they probably don't
really 'belong' in, or they stay in the alt.* hierarchy where it is faster
and easier to create a newsgroup.
Making a comp.lang.coldfusion group would seem to me a bit like making a
comp.lang.apache group to discuss html, PHP, Python, Perl or some such
thing. OTOH, it would not be intuitive to look for a PHP discussion in
comp.infosys.www.server.apache either. I also note that there are
comp.lang.php, comp.lang.perl.* and comp.lang.python groups, and a
comp.infosystems.www.html.authoring newsgroup.
So, I could see a comp.lang.cfml group that is intended to discuss only the
cfml language, whether implemented under Cold Fusion, Blue Dragon or any
other web server. I could also see a comp.infosys.www.server.coldfusion
with extensions later if justified, but I don't know how many users would
think to look there. I can also see a new hierarchy such as
comp.webservers that could include extensions such as IIS, coldfusion,
bluedragon, apache, websphere, etc. and all of the further extensions as
well.
I personally like the latter, but that would require additional time (and
patience) to get the new node approved. If not that, I think
comp.lang.cfml is the next best, with comp.lang.coldfusion being my last
choice. But then, perhaps what makes sense in my brain is really nonsense,
and it doesn't really matter in this case what I think ... :-) <shrug>.
Regards,
Dean
Russ Allbery
> 1) Cold Fusion isn't really a 'language' as much as it is a web server.
> It isn't even a development environment, it is a runtime environment.
> There *are* development environments that one can use to code cfml, and
> there is at least one other application server that will interpret cfml
> (as well as other 'web languages'). Depending on how
> widespread/important the application server becomes, I can see the
> potential that eventually the group would need to be split into
> subgroups for administration, development environments, cfml language,
> etc. There is also the issue that the Blue Dragon web server will
> handle cfml.
That's pretty much exactly what the comp.soft-sys.* hierarchy was for,
that sort of mixed situation. (Yeah, the name is uninspiring.) But
something under comp.infosystems.www.* would also make some sense to me.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Dean Kent <dk...@realworldtech.com> wrote:
>
>1) Cold Fusion isn't really a 'language' as much as it is a web
>server. It isn't even a development environment, it is a runtime
>environment. There *are* development environments that one can use
>to code cfml, and there is at least one other application server that
>will interpret cfml (as well as other 'web languages'). Depending on
>how widespread/important the application server becomes, I can see
>the potential that eventually the group would need to be split into
>subgroups for administration, development environments, cfml language,
>etc. There is also the issue that the Blue Dragon web server will
>handle cfml.
As Russ said, if you look at the groups in comp.soft-sys.*, that's the
kind of situation it's designed to handle. Here's how I see it:
"coldfusion" is *definitely* the name that people will be using to
search, so that ought to be part of the group name. The question then
becomes which hierarchy fits best. comp.lang.* isn't really
appropriate, because there's much more to Cold Fusion than its
template-based programming language (PHP needs a web server, for
example). It'd be like sticking MS Access into comp.lang.* just because
you need VBA to do anything useful.
That leaves either a mish-mash option like comp.soft-sys.* (which has
the advantage of leaving .coldfusion on a 3rd-level node) or
comp.infosystems.www.*, which has no history of product-specific nodes.
Overall, I'd lean toward soft-sys, but wouldn't object to infosys.
Chris Smith
> As Russ said, if you look at the groups in comp.soft-sys.*, that's the
> kind of situation it's designed to handle. Here's how I see it:
> "coldfusion" is *definitely* the name that people will be using to
> search, so that ought to be part of the group name. The question then
> becomes which hierarchy fits best. comp.lang.* isn't really
> appropriate, because there's much more to Cold Fusion than its
> template-based programming language (PHP needs a web server, for
> example). It'd be like sticking MS Access into comp.lang.* just because
> you need VBA to do anything useful.
Just a quick interjection. It's also aking to sticking a language-
neutral group like comp.lang.java.machine under comp.lang.*, which is
something that's long since been the case. This almost seems to fit
under the same logic that puts Java under comp.lang.*, to me. Perhaps
not; I'm less familiar with ColdFusion, but it looks from this
discussion like all the other "more than a language" stuff is there to
support developing web applications specifically using two specific
related languages. If that's the case, then it may be overly pedantic
to claim that comp.lang.* is inappropriate because ColdFusion is more
than a language.
Or is it advocated by anyone (or even possible) that ColdFusion is used
in the absence of the specific two languages mentioned earlier in the
thread?
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
Dean Kent
>
> That leaves either a mish-mash option like comp.soft-sys.* (which has
> the advantage of leaving .coldfusion on a 3rd-level node) or
> comp.infosystems.www.*, which has no history of product-specific nodes.
> Overall, I'd lean toward soft-sys, but wouldn't object to infosys.
Being somewhat of a troublemaker by nature, what I wonder is whether (or
why) there is any resistance to a new 2nd level node to handle a specific
situation that is obviously not going away, and is most certainly going to
expand (web application servers). OTOH, after looking at a few responses
I am also thinking that even this doesn't solve the dilemma entirely.
While Cold Fusion is the name of the web application, and once upon a time,
cfml and cold fusion went hand-in-hand - this is no longer the case. At
least one other web application supports cfml (Blue Dragon from New
Atlanta). It is entirely possible that another web app could come along to
support it as well. Therefore, while cold fusion is currently synonymous
with cfml, it won't necessarily *always* be that way (though it is possible
that it could). At that point, comp.lang.cfml might be more appropriate.
So, now I think I lean towards comp.lang - but, since cfml means "cold
fusion markup language", it may not be inappropriate for it to be
comp.lang.coldfusion (particularly since there is also a cold fusion
scripting language, and cold fusion components, and probably some other cold
fusion extensions coming later).
Regards,
Dean
Dave Hodder
for the ColdFusion/CFML group:
1) The most important consideration is whether the group name should
end in '.coldfusion' or '.cfml' or '.cfml+cfscript', i.e. one of:
a) comp.*.coldfusion
b) comp.*.cfml
c) comp.*.cfml+cfscript
It seems largely agreed that comp.*.coldfusion is the most viable
choice because more people will be able to find and therefore use
the group; we must be pragmatic here.
2) Having decided on comp.*.coldfusion we need to determine the most
appropriate sub-hierarchy; suggestions are:
a) comp.lang.coldfusion
b) comp.soft-sys.coldfusion
c) comp.infosystems.www.*.coldfusion
d) comp.*.coldfusion in a newly created web app sub-hierarchy
This bit is still very much up for debate; there are convincing
arguments why a) and b) are both appropriate. If options c) and d)
are to be explored further, we'll have to determine what the
asterisks represent.
I think Dean Kent's idea of having a comp.* sub-hierarchy for web
applications is laudable one, but it's an idea that has come too late in
the day for comp.*. The J2EE and PHP web application developers have
already determined the most appropriate sub-hierarchy and it is
comp.lang.*! ;o)
I think Chris Smith makes a very good point with his comment regarding
comp.lang.java.machine; the definition of what is or isn't suitable in
comp.lang.* has already been stretched to encompass platforms and
runtime environments. (I note also that PHP is both a language as well
as a language interpreter/web app server, and as a result posts
regarding PHP-the-web-app-server /are/ made in comp.lang.php.)
I concede comp.lang.coldfusion isn't a /perfect/ fit, but I personally
prefer it because the group would be aligned with groups for other web
languages/platforms like Java, Perl, PHP, Python and Ruby. I agree
comp.soft-sys.* has merit too, but it would make our next-door
neighbours comp.soft-sys.business.sap and comp.soft-sys.dce. ;o)
Does anyone have a "favourite" out of comp.soft-sys.coldfusion and
comp.infosystems.www.*.coldfusion? I get the feeling that out of the
two comp.soft-sys.coldfusion has the most popularity...
Thanks,
Dave
Dave Hodder
<snip/>
> Or is it advocated by anyone (or even possible) that ColdFusion is used
> in the absence of the specific two languages mentioned earlier in the
> thread?
No -- you've got the situation exactly right. Where you find ColdFusion
Server you'll also find ColdFusion Markup Language and most likely also
CFScript.
Regards,
Dave
Chris Smith
In that case, it's clear to me that this belongs in comp.lang.* -- the
ColdFusion server is basically pointless except as a support for writing
web apps in a ColdFusion language. So basically, you're establishing a
newsgroup to discuss use of ColdFusion languages. It's a category of
languages rather than a single language, and there might exist a
possible future where there is a comp.lang.coldfusion.cfml and a
comp.lang.coldfusion.cfscript, but that doesn't make
comp.lang.coldfusion any worse of a decent solution for the time being.
This is MUCH more clearcut than, say, comp.lang.java.machine (which
discusses software with the specific intent to act as a VM for aps
written in a huge variety of languages). It's analogous, in a way, to
comp.lang.javascript (in which both ECMA JavaScript and VBScript are
considered on-topic because of their common use in a specific
environment).
Brian Palmer
> I concede comp.lang.coldfusion isn't a /perfect/ fit, but I personally
> prefer it because the group would be aligned with groups for other web
> languages/platforms like Java, Perl, PHP, Python and Ruby. I agree
> comp.soft-sys.* has merit too, but it would make our next-door
> neighbours comp.soft-sys.business.sap and comp.soft-sys.dce. ;o)
>
> Does anyone have a "favourite" out of comp.soft-sys.coldfusion and
> comp.infosystems.www.*.coldfusion? I get the feeling that out of the
> two comp.soft-sys.coldfusion has the most popularity...
Of those two, comp.soft-sys.coldfusion; but I think your analysis of
the situation is spot-on, and think you make a very convicing case for
comp.lang.coldfusion.
--
If you want divine justice, die.
-- Nick Seldon
Dave Hodder
>
> Of those two, comp.soft-sys.coldfusion; but I think your analysis of
> the situation is spot-on, and think you make a very convicing case for
> comp.lang.coldfusion.
Thanks Brian. It seems the vast majority favour comp.lang.coldfusion.
With that resolved the situation looks clear-cut with no need for a 2nd
RFD, so I hope to go for a CFV as soon as possible.
Regards,
Dave
Bill Aten
unmoderated group comp.lang.coldfusion
Newsgroups line:
comp.lang.coldfusion ColdFusion web application development.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 26 Sep 2003.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about
the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Dave Hodder <d...@dmh.org.uk>
Votetaker: Bill Aten <bi...@netagw.com>
RATIONALE: comp.lang.coldfusion
The currently existing newsgroup alt.comp.lang.coldfusion is well
used. Not all news servers carry alt.* or alt.comp.lang.coldfusion,
however, essentially cutting off parts of the ColdFusion community.
Almost all servers carry the comp.* groups, however, which would make
the proposed group more accessible to users.
(The idea of creating a ColdFusion group within comp.* was first
suggested in message <news:slrnbipp...@armaros.dmh.org.uk>
on alt.comp.lang.coldfusion on 3 August 2003, where it received broad
support.)
First released in 1995, ColdFusion was the first ever web application
server, with it's ColdFusion Markup Language being the first
programming language designed specifically for server-side web
application development. Now robust and scalable, there are multiple
implementations of ColdFusion available, including ColdFusion 5 and
ColdFusion MX from Macromedia, and the BlueDragon product family from
New Atlanta. With it's level of maturity, a group in the comp.lang.*
hierarchy seems appropriate.
Finally, many news servers give posts to comp.* groups a longer
retention period than posts to alt.* groups, which would be an
additional benefit.
CHARTER: comp.lang.coldfusion
comp.lang.coldfusion is an unmoderated newsgroup for the discussion of
ColdFusion Markup Language (CFML) and CFScript. Whilst primarily
focused around ColdFusion programming, ColdFusion configuration
issues involving products such as ColdFusion Server and BlueDragon
Server are also considered on-topic.
Other topics which may be discussed in the context of the ColdFusion
environment include: development tools such as Dreamweaver and
ColdFusion Studio; CFX/JSP custom tags and external objects; and
frameworks/design patterns such as Fusebox and MVC. General web
development discussion unrelated to ColdFusion is off-topic and
belongs in a more appropriate group.
Posts must be readable as plain text. Binary posts are not permitted,
with the exception of cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP), which may
be used where appropriate.
Relevant commercial posts are acceptable, but should be limited to one
per month per product.
END CHARTER.
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| Voter name:
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
|
| Your Vote Newsgroup
| --------- ---------
| [ ] comp.lang.coldfusion
|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------
======= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything AFTER this line ==============
IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:
Standard Guidelines for voting apply. Only one vote per person, no
more than one vote per account. Votes must be mailed directly from
the voter to the votetaker. Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes
are not valid. Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered
to be anonymous votes.
Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days, contact the votetaker
about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly. Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote. Names, addresses, and votes of all voters
will be published in the final voting results post.
DO NOT redistribute this CFV in any manner whatsoever. The purpose of
a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would
read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from disinterested parties
defeats this purpose. Only the votetaker, the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, and the proponent (if specifically authorized by the votetaker)
are permitted to distribute copies of this CFV.
Distribution of pre-marked or otherwise modified copies of this CFV is
generally considered voting fraud and should be reported immediately to
the votetaker or the UVV <con...@uvv.org>. In cases where voting fraud
is determined to have occurred, it is standard operating procedure to
delete ALL votes submitted by the violator. When in doubt, ask the
votetaker.
DISTRIBUTION:
The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the locations listed
below, the UVV web site at http://www.uvv.org/, and the votetaker's e-mail
CFV server which can be reached at <coldfusion-...@netagw.com>.
This CFV has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
alt.comp.lang.coldfusion
comp.infosystems.www.misc
Bill Aten
unmoderated group comp.lang.coldfusion
RATIONALE: comp.lang.coldfusion
CHARTER: comp.lang.coldfusion
END CHARTER.
HOW TO VOTE:
| Usenet Voting Ballot [CLC-74-2] (Do not remove this line!)
IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:
DISTRIBUTION:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
alt.comp.lang.coldfusion
comp.infosystems.www.misc
A pointer message to the CFV will be sent by the proponent to the following
mailing lists:
Mailing list name: CF-Talk
Submission address: cf-...@houseoffusion.com
Request address: See http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm?link=s:4
Mailing list name: coldfusion-howto Yahoo! Group
Submission address: coldfusi...@yahoogroups.com
Request address: coldfusion-ho...@yahoogroups.com
Mailing list name: cold_fusion Yahoo! Group
Submission address: cold_...@yahoogroups.com
Request address: cold_fusio...@yahoogroups.com
Mailing list name: coldfusion Yahoo! Group
Submission address: coldf...@yahoogroups.com
Request address: coldfusion...@yahoogroups.com
comp.lang.coldfusion - Ack Bounce List
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the Vote Ack email bounced, the email address and associated
ballot listed below are considered invalid and will not be counted in the
final result. Ballots must be submitted from a valid and verifyable email
address in order to be processed. The individual listed below will need
to revote from a valid email address prior to the poll closing in order to
correct this problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fuckoffspammers [at] yousuck.com Ian Coles
--
Bill Aten, UVV <bi...@netagw.com>
Bill Aten
unmoderated group comp.lang.coldfusion fails 96:8
Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 26 Sep 2003.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the
proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Dave Hodder <d...@dmh.org.uk>
Votetaker: Bill Aten <bi...@netagw.com>
There were 104 valid YES/NO votes submitted during the voting period. Each
proposed newsgroup, in order to pass, must have at least 2/3 YES votes and at
least 100 more YES than NO votes. The results are as follows:
comp.lang.coldfusion results - 104 valid (YES & NO) votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
96 8 : Yes No : No : comp.lang.coldfusion
3 abstaining votes and 1 invalid vote
The proposal failed.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
Unless serious and significant allegations of voting irregularities are
raised, the proposal may not be voted on again for six months.
The remainder of the RESULT contains:
Newsgroups Line
Rationale
Charter
Final Voting Acknowledgements
NEWSGROUPS LINE:
comp.lang.coldfusion ColdFusion web application development.
RATIONALE: comp.lang.coldfusion
CHARTER: comp.lang.coldfusion
END CHARTER.
FINAL VOTING ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
comp.lang.coldfusion - Final Voter List
NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses
are provided only to help verify the validity of the interest poll.
Voted YES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
adam [at] craze.co.uk Adam Reynolds
adam [at] straker.co.nz Adam Cameron
AEverett [at] askallied.com Al Everett
AidanWhitehall [at] Fairbanks.co.uk Aidan Whitehall
alanh [at] unc.edu Alan Hoyle
asherwood [at] phs-net.com Alexander Sherwood
axonite [at] netscape.net Tyson
ben [at] arledge.net Ben Arledge
ben [at] forta.com Ben Forta
ben [at] websciences.org Ben Curtis
bernhard.steffen [at] gmx.net Bernhard Steffen
bob [at] cave.org Robert Wilkins
bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin
Cam.Penner.news1ATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com [at] hotmail.com Cam P
cgordon [at] chillco.com Cary Gordon
Chris.Smith [at] airportnet.org CHRISTOPHER E SMITH
chris [at] kzim.com Christopher Robin Zimmerman
chriskrolczyk [at] hotmail.com Chris Krolczyk
croyle [at] gelemna.org Don Croyle
david [at] farrar.com David Farrar
davidl [at] teratech.com David Lakein
DDeeds [at] idahopower.com David Deeds
devnull [at] vianet.ca Trevor Tymchuk
dfrost [at] maths.tcd.ie Dermot Frost
dgoel [at] discountcar.com Dharmesh Goel
dive [at] panix.com Bob Dively
dkent [at] realworldtech.com Dean Kent
dmh [at] dmh.org.uk Dave Hodder
dougbob [at] charter.net D. David OBRIAn
dwatts [at] figleaf.com Dave Watts
Ed.Tennant [at] sas.com Ed Tennant
Ekkehard [at] Uthke.de Ekkehard Uthke
fred [at] fredsanders.com Fred T. Sanders
fungus [at] OCF.Berkeley.EDU Hank Fung
GeorgeF [at] GFonline.org George
ggw [at] wolves.durham.nc.us G.Wolfe Woodbury
hartwichr [at] hotmail.com Ryan Hartwich
iancoles [at] hardcorehost.co.uk Ian Coles
j.houwing [at] student.utwente.nl Jesse Houwing
jared [at] impact451.com Jared Chandler
jdg [at] diogenes.sacramento.ca.us John David Galt
jdk [at] epiphanywebconcepts.com David Keevil
jeandret [at] hotmail.com John
jeff [at] hawkandheron.com Jeff Garza
jhkeller [at] ucdavis.edu Jonathan Keller
jim [at] depressedpress.com Jim Davis
jjohnson [at] lawyersweekly.com Jerry Johnson
jpolaski [at] rgs.uci.edu Jeff Polaski
judith [at] kotter.net Judith Campbell
kenrbnsn [at] rbnsn.com Ken Robinson
kevin.graeme [at] ces.uwex.edu Kevin Graeme
kickkat [at] cetlink.net Todd Ashworth
kowallek [at] iglou.com D. M. Kowallek
krisch [at] sover.net Kristine C. Hege
leebailey [at] mda.uk.com Lee Bailey
linafha [at] hotmail.com Lena Almodamqa
lWold [at] wsscwater.com Lloyd Wold
lyons [at] lyonsmorris.com Larry C. Lyons
mainstreetcentral [at] juno.com Richard Michael
mark [at] good-stuff.co.uk Mark Goodge
martin [at] tonal.demon.co.uk Martin Carroll
mfusfield [at] ins-business.com mattfusf
milton.schmidt [at] goldmedalsystems.com Milton Schmidt
mojo [at] masuga.com Ryan Masuga
mpwoodward [at] hotmail.com Matthew Woodward
mwilson [at] 961media.com Michael Wilson
nfitz [at] sentex.net Nicholas Fitzpatrick
pb-mls [at] onvix.com Phillip Beazley
psmyth [at] gmx.net Peter Smyth
raedwards [at] insightbb.com Rob Edwards
rde [at] ins-business.com Ryan Emerle
rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
rnurse [at] cudbytech.net Robert Nurse
robertjm [at] hockeyhockeyhockey.com Robert Marshall
rod.enke [at] practicematch.com Rodney Enke
sbfaulds [at] ihug.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds
sean [at] corfield.org Sean A Corfield
shayne [at] healthinsite.gov.au Shayne Lynch
shrao [at] nyx.net Shrisha Rao
simon [at] darkmere.gen.nz Simon Lyall
slclark [at] shayna.com Sandra L. Clark
smlucas [at] flashmail.com Steven Lucas
steve [at] rootskitchens.co.uk Steve Root
support [at] k2hosting.com Andrew Jarrett
svenc [at] pandora.be Sven Claessens
tbahlke [at] triad.rr.com Tim Bahlke
thomas.chiverton [at] bluefinger.com Thomas Chiverton
thwaitesj [at] yahoo.com John Thwaites
tomo_smith [at] yahoo.co.uk Tomo Smith
Tony.Stratford [at] wch.org.au Tony Stratford
tony [at] navtrak.net Tony Weeg
tormod [at] guldvog.com Tormod Guldvog
van.ette [at] inter.nl.net Robert-Jan van Ette
vegard [at] riseng.net Vegard Riseng
wilco [at] nildram.co.uk Andrew Wilcox
yaakovk [at] earthlink.net Yaakov Kayman
Voted NO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barticus [at] att.net Randall Bart
dc [at] panix.com David W. Crawford
naddy [at] mips.inka.de Christian Weisgerber
pan [at] syix.com Pan
setantae [at] submonkey.net Ceri Davies
stainles [at] realtime.net Dwight Brown
thor [at] anta.net Thor Kottelin
zimnyzenon [at] interia.pl Zenobiusz Zimny
Voted ABSTAIN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aahz [at] pobox.com Aahz Maruch
cuhulain_98 [at] yahoo.com Ranger, The
max [at] alcyone.com Erik Max Francis
Invalid Votes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rich [at] basement.org Richard Ziade
! No ballot
Jim Davis
You'd think with 30,000 downloads of CF at Downloads.com we could fin more
than 100 people that would vote for this...
Jim Davis
"Bill Aten" <bi...@netagw.com> wrote in message
news:1064642...@isc.org...
Matthew Montchalin
|Well... that sucks.
|
|You'd think with 30,000 downloads of CF at Downloads.com we could
|fin more than 100 people that would vote for this...
Maybe those 30,000 downloads were auto-downloads (reloads) by the same
handful of people, each one trying over and over again to get the
file successfully, for once?
Dave H
> Well... that sucks.
I concur, it doth suck most mightily.
> You'd think with 30,000 downloads of CF at Downloads.com we could fin more
> than 100 people that would vote for this...
With those 8 NO votes, we needed another 12 votes to pass. Even without
the NO votes, we still fall short by 4 votes.
As far as my role as group proponent goes, I'm not sure what more I
could have done -- the CFV was crossposted to, or mentioned on, relevant
newsgroups and mailing lists.
There's always the possibility of trying again in six months. Let me
know if you want to be a co-proponent. ;o)
Dave
ru.ig...@usask.ca
>You'd think with 30,000 downloads of CF at Downloads.com we could fin more
>than 100 people that would vote for this...
I wouldn't. In other proposals that rely on such stats I always
point out that real world conditions mean practically nothing on
usenet. Popularity of a product has little effect on the outcome.
It all comes down to whether readers of usenet use the product in
sufficient numbers.
In this particular case, the rationale relied more on readers of
existing groups. It seems that either there aren't that many of
them, or that enough aren't interested enough in a Big-8 version
of their group (either oppose it or just don' care). Given that
the proponent did discuss this prior to the RFD with good reception
according to him, it looks like there just isn't the critical mass
on usenet for such a group.
Given that this is a web related topic, I assume that this topic
is discussed on some web forum(s). Perhaps next time, the proponent
should investigate the possibility of contacting these web forums
to find if there is any interest there. Some folks might prefer
a usenet forum over a web forum (the reverse is also true), so
you might actually be able to pull in a significant readership.
ru
P.S. to Jim: next time could you snip down the quoted text? The
inclusion of most of the RESULTS text seemed unnecessary to your
point.
Larry C. Lyons
While I'm not necessarily sure of what to do, I'll be glad to help however I can.
larry
pan
<ru.ig...@usask.ca> wrote in message
news:bl4knd$kn4$2...@tribune.usask.ca...
> Jim Davis <newsm...@vboston.com> wrote:
>
> >You'd think with 30,000 downloads of CF at Downloads.com we could fin
more
> >than 100 people that would vote for this...
[snip]
>
> Given that this is a web related topic, I assume that this topic
> is discussed on some web forum(s). Perhaps next time, the proponent
> should investigate the possibility of contacting these web forums
> to find if there is any interest there. Some folks might prefer
> a usenet forum over a web forum (the reverse is also true), so
> you might actually be able to pull in a significant readership.
>
As remarked previously, there is a dedicated news server run by the
PHP folks; news://news.php.net
Pan "reinventing the wheel and all that"
Dave H
>
> While I'm not necessarily sure of what to do, I'll be glad to help
> however I can.
Thanks Larry.
Meet me back here in March. ;o)
Dave