Green Plug 1, Refrigerator 0
John De Armond
actual conditions, a Green Plug with a 1977 yearmodel Hotpoint Model
CTF18C refrigerator and some squirrel-cage fans. I promised that I
would post the long term tests on the refrigerator when they were
completed. The long term energy consumption tests were complete in
February but I decided to wait until now to post so as to let a process
I saw developing run to completion. The process was the destruction of
the compressor in this refrigerator. The refrigerator fired back by
destroying the green plug.
The process started back in January when I started seeing on the
attached recording ammeter an increased duration of starting current.
This increase appeared to be caused by the "soft start" feature (sic) of
the green plug that is supposed to limit inrush current. At the time I
got the green plug, I thought it foolhardy, because limiting starting
current drags out the starting process which actually subjects the motor
winding to MORE heat. Shortly after I noted this increased starting
duration, the refrigerator tripped the GFI on the circuit it was plugged
into. Prime evidence that the winding insulation in the compressor was
degrading.
I decided to let this play itself out so I plugged the refrig and green
plug into a non-GFI outlet. The refrigerator continued maintaining the
temperature setpoint as indicated by the digital thermocouple meter
attached to the refrig. I noticed, however, that the compressor
overload would occasionally trip on excess temperature. And the total
current draw continued to creep up as the leakage current continued to
increase.
This afternoon the process ended. I heard the thermostat on the refrig
turn on and a moment later, the green plug erupted in a pleasing ball of
smoke and flame. I checked resistance between the refrigerator cord
prongs and ground. Dead short. I cracked the service fitting on the
compressor and was greeted by what is probably the worst compressor
burnout I've ever seen. This was a long term roast and not a quick
failure.
After I replace the compressor, I plan to open the shell of the old one
to inspect the damage and make sure it wasn't a tight bearing or
something else mechanical. But based on the electrical history I have,
I'm pretty positive that the green plug took out this refrigerator. I
plan on sending this device along with a letter asking them to pay for
the compressor to the factory to see what kind of reaction I get.
So the final score is this. The green plug was "saving" electricity
at the rate of about a dollar a month. Meanwhile, the replacement
compressor will cost me about $80 plus the better part of a day
to replace it and flush all the contamination out of the freon system.
I think that extra buck a month for power without the Plug was a
bargain.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA j...@dixie.com
Performance Engineering Magazine. Email to me published at my sole discretion
Tonight, suppose Washington were nuked to atoms. Ask yourself, would you
be better or worse off. This graphically frames the role of the federal
government in destroying the American way of life.
m._orzeck
<SNIP>
>winding to MORE heat. Shortly after I noted this increased starting
>duration, the refrigerator tripped the GFI on the circuit it was plugged
>into. Prime evidence that the winding insulation in the compressor was
>degrading.
I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time, just ask the wife;) ) But I
thought plugging any compressor or motor type circuit into a GFI was a no-no.
Would this invalidate any results?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark W. Orzeck
Motorola/Codex
20 Cabot Blvd
Mansfield, MA 02048 -INSERT USUAL DISCLAIMERS HERE-
E-Mail: LMO...@email.mot.com
Voice: (617) 821-7983
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gerald Louie
MM: I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time, just ask the wife;)
MM: ) But I thought plugging any compressor or motor type circuit into
MM: a GFI was a no-no. Would this invalidate any results?
Would this include a 1600W hair (blow) dryer?
--------------------------------------------------------
Internet Address: gerald...@pcgfx.com
Netmail Address: gerald...@f217.n125.z1.fidonet.org
--------------------------------------------------------
* RM 1.3 00568 *
Dion Hollenbeck
John> Back in November I posted some preliminary results of my testing under
John> actual conditions, a Green Plug with a 1977 yearmodel Hotpoint Model
John> CTF18C refrigerator and some squirrel-cage fans. I promised that I
John> would post the long term tests on the refrigerator when they were
John> completed. The long term energy consumption tests were complete in
John> February but I decided to wait until now to post so as to let a process
John> I saw developing run to completion. The process was the destruction of
John> the compressor in this refrigerator. The refrigerator fired back by
John> destroying the green plug.
I also have had a green plug since about October. I posted results of
hooking my fridge up to a meter with and without the green plug. It
was definitely saving me money. About a week ago, I opened up the
fridge and the light was "burned out". Replaced it and it still did
not work. Traced it down to the fact that the Green Plug had died.
No smoke and flames like John, but it now saves me 100% of my
electrictiy bill since it will pass no electricity at all!!
--
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hol...@megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Douglas Rand
In article <ty94!s...@dixie.com> j...@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
<SNIP>
>winding to MORE heat. Shortly after I noted this increased starting
>duration, the refrigerator tripped the GFI on the circuit it was plugged
>into. Prime evidence that the winding insulation in the compressor was
>degrading.
I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time, just ask the wife;) ) But I
thought plugging any compressor or motor type circuit into a GFI was a no-no.
Would this invalidate any results?
No. The no-no part is that there have been problems with GFIs
tripping erroneously (perhaps not?) on high inductive loads like
motors, and with a refridgerator you are counting on the power
to stay on (or you'll lose the food). But it doesn't affect
the electrical measurements.
The interesting thing here is that he had a fridge where the
plug actually seemed to save money. CU reported that only a
very old fridge had a power savings, and a modern fridge had
a loss. There conclusion was to buy a new fridge.
--
Doug Rand <dr...@osf.org> Open Software Foundation, Motif Development
Disclaimer: Would you believe a disclaimer if I made one?
John De Armond
>The interesting thing here is that he had a fridge where the
>plug actually seemed to save money. CU reported that only a
>very old fridge had a power savings, and a modern fridge had
>a loss. There conclusion was to buy a new fridge.
First, I'll admit up front that I've not read the CU report. I have
little confidence in their reports because the few I've looked at
addressing subjects that I know something about appeared to be
structured to produce a desired result. I KNOW that the results I
have measured with the green plug are at variance with what is
being reported about the CU report.
I am actually a mild proponent of this technology and have been ever
since I did a fairly extensive evaluation for my company (M&M Mars)
of the available industrial units when the first wave of 'em hit
15 years or so ago.
Unless a refrigerator has some sort of active control, and none that I've
poked my head in the back of to day do have, the compressor WILL run
partially loaded most of the time. This is due to the simple fact that
the compressor motor must have sufficient capacity to pump the maximum
design heat load when the refrigerator is warm inside and/or someone
places a large hot object in the 'frig. This means that when it is
doing maintenance cooling (removing leakage heat, de-ice heater heat,
etc), the compressor is partially loaded. A similar situation exists
with squirrel-cage blowers of the type used on heating and air conditioning
systems. The backpressure added by ducting, vents, duct bends and
closed vents UNLOADS the motor. Thus any furnace blower will be running
its fan at some load less than its rating.
Both of these situations would benefit from this power-factor-based load
control technology. And indeed they do. I have measured a wide variety
of devices before and after the green plug and invariably, the device
draws less real power with the plug installed. If you caught my original
post back in November, you would note that the same effect can be
achieved using an ordinary light dimmer. The difference is the units
that reduce voltage based on measured power factor adapt to differing
loads while a light dimmer obviously must be adjusted manually.
The problem now, as there was 15 years ago, is that the price of power
in most areas is low enough that the payback on even a $30 device is so
long as to not make financial sense. Ignoring the time value of the
money spent on the plug, it would have paid for itself in a little over
2 years where I now live where power costs 11.6 c/kwh. Where I'm
moving to, power costs 3.8 c/kwh and thus the device would take
close to a decade to return the $30 in savings. It would be better
to place that $30 in an interest-bearing savings account for a decade
and just pay for the extra power.
If the green plug had been a competent implementation of this technology,
I would have posted my test results and let everyone make a decision
based on their local conditions. Unfortunately they didn't. They used
a cheap, small power semiconductor in the device and in order to
protect it, they limit the maximum available current to something like
15 amps. Worse, they tried to pass this off as a feature, the "soft
start" feature. This simply is not enough current to rapidly start
the compressor. It is desirable to start the compressor as quickly
as possible so as to minimize heating in the very lightweight starting
winding. (This winding is switched off by a starting relay once the
compressor is at speed) Indeed, products called "hard start kits" are available
to be attached to compressors where the line voltage is a bit low.
These things cause the compressor to draw more starting current,
making them start faster. Limiting the available current causes
the compressor to stay on the starting winding longer than normal.
In my opinion, this "soft start" "feature" is what smoked the compressor
in my test 'frige. For this reason alone, I must recommend against
this device.
Gerald E. Riechert
>Also lourescent lights on a GFI
>are supposed to be problems. Anybody out there with any experience with this?
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Mark W. Orzeck
I used to have a standard, $10 shop light in the garage that was plugged into a GFI. It
quite regularly would trip when I turned the light off. I finally rewired the outlet
the light was plugged into so that it wasn't routed through the GFI and, no surprise
here, the problem went away.
---
Jerry Riechert (riechertg) Ph: 602-582-7332 Office: E65
INTERNET: riec...@agcs.com FAX: 602-581-4884
>> insert standard disclaimer here <<<
patterson,george r
Duane Beach <LVD...@SCIVAX.LERC.NASA.GOV> wrote:
>GFI/motor incompatibility isn't rumor.
Right. My GE refrigerator will trip one as soon as the compressor kicks
in. My mixer will occassionally trip one when it's being shut off (never
when you turn it on).
I don't have a single GFCI in my basement or garage because the only
thing I use the power for is to run motors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| They say nothin's sure but death and taxes.
George Patterson - | The thing is, death doesn't get worse every
| time Congress goes into session.
| Will Rogers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Len Reed
>References: <1994Mar14.1...@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com>
>MM: ) But I thought plugging any compressor or motor type circuit into
>MM: a GFI was a no-no. Would this invalidate any results?
>
>Would this include a 1600W hair (blow) dryer?
No. The distinction being made is between inductive loads (air conditioners,
large motors) and resistive loads (toasters, ranges, etc.). Your hair
dryer is a little motor used to drive a fan plus a good-size heater
element. The elecric power is consumed by the heater, which is resistive.
Brian Mork
: Back in November I posted some preliminary results of my testing under
: actual conditions, a Green Plug with a 1977 yearmodel Hotpoint Model
: CTF18C refrigerator and some squirrel-cage fans.
: So the final score is this. The green plug was "saving" electricity
: at the rate of about a dollar a month. Meanwhile, the replacement
: compressor will cost me about $80 plus the better part of a day
: to replace it and flush all the contamination out of the freon system.
Not to count the difficulty of servicing freon these days (regulated
or illegal so as to make most vented units worth discarding).
Richard Siegelman (FSS)
>A previous response noted that motors can cause nuisance trips. Here's a
>couple of real world examples. I had a pool pump (1-1/2 HP) on a GFI. It
>tripped once a month and did it during turn-on (The pump turned on once an
>hour, automatically) . In another instance, my bathroom ventilation fan
>was part of the GFI circuit. By slowly flipping the fan's wall switch, I
>could make the GFI trip with some regularity (you could hear a bit of
>arcing in the switch during those times.)
>
>GFI/motor incompatibility isn't rumor.
won't. In my house, I went overboard - on EVERY 120v circuit,
I have a GFI as the first outlet on the line. This includes
the refrigerator, and in summer (window) air conditioners.
There have been no false trips, but I may eventually change
this because there are some disadvantages:
1) One fine morning I could splash some water in the
kitchen in such a way as to trip the GFI. The
lights would stay on, because they are on a
different circuit (per code) so I wouldn't even
notice the refrigerator was out. All the beer
would get warm! [ This one was pointed out to me
by an electrician].
2) Some of the GFI's are in outlets at baseboard
level on the walls. If kids played with the
test button, the whole circuit would go out!
(anybody make a kid resistant cover for a GFI?)
3) If I wanted to test something that generated
trips (like John with the refrigerator+greenplug)
I'd have no where to plug it in. This has
actually happened - someone gave me a very old
spot water heater that hooks up on the faucet.
I guess it heats the water by actually shooting
current into it (and the water is grounded via
the pipe).
Rich
co...@thing1.cc.utexas.edu
extended measuremants of green plug effects and concluded that the
savings came primarily from slowing motors down. I remember there
were some before and after tach readings on a central heating unit.
I mentioned this to a repairman I know and he said that this was a
bad idea. Most central heat units have barely adequate fans and slowing
them down may save fan motor power but will increase the TOTAL power
consumption considerably by reducing the heat transfer efficiency.
This is particularly true for central air conditioning units which will
run longer against a higher temperature difference. It would be
interesting to see results for a central ac that included compressor
power consumption.
Green plug 1, air conditioner 0.
Green plug looks like a serious challenger in this league.
Paul Houtz
>Back in November I posted some preliminary results of my testing under
>actual conditions, a Green Plug with a 1977 yearmodel Hotpoint Model
>CTF18C refrigerator and some squirrel-cage fans. I promised that I
>would post the long term tests on the refrigerator when they were
>completed. The long term energy consumption tests were complete in
>February but I decided to wait until now to post so as to let a process
>I saw developing run to completion. The process was the destruction of
>the compressor in this refrigerator. The refrigerator fired back by
>destroying the green plug.
...
>This afternoon the process ended. I heard the thermostat on the refrig
>turn on and a moment later, the green plug erupted in a pleasing ball of
>smoke and flame. I checked resistance between the refrigerator cord
>prongs and ground. Dead short. I cracked the service fitting on the
>compressor and was greeted by what is probably the worst compressor
>burnout I've ever seen. This was a long term roast and not a quick
>failure.
It seems to me there is a fatal flaw in this test which Mr. De Armond
cannot address.
It has nothing to do with the nonsense about GFCI, etc.
The question I have for Mr. De Armond is, how do you know the refrigerator
didn't self destruct on it's own, having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE GREEN PLUG?
Here we have a 1977 machine, let's see, 17 years old. The compressor
motor burns out. "This was a long term roast and not a quck failure".
Maybe a 17 year roast, eh?
Not that I disbelieve Mr. De Armond, but frankly, there is absolutely
no evidence I can see that the green plug was the cause of the problem.
I suspect that the manufacturer will tell Mr. De Armond the same thing.
Do I think he is wrong? No. Do I think he is right? No.
I don't know. There is insufficient evidence from his test to tell
what happened.
If we could line up 50 fridges and put green plugs in 25 of them and
not in the others, and run them for 17 years, and percentage of
dead motors was higher in the ones with green plugs, then I would be
more convinced.
I was ready to take this note to my local retailer and show it to
them, to let them know what they are in for selling the Green Plug,
but after re-reading it several times, I just can't honestly say there
is sufficient information here to warrant blaming the Green Plug.
Just my $.02 worth.
Richard Siegelman (FSS)
>In article <CMxF7...@pica.army.mil> rsi...@pica.army.mil (Richard Siegelman (FSS)) writes:
>
> 3) If I wanted to test something that generated
> trips (like John with the refrigerator+greenplug)
> I'd have no where to plug it in. This has
> actually happened - someone gave me a very old
> spot water heater that hooks up on the faucet.
> I guess it heats the water by actually shooting
> current into it (and the water is grounded via
> the pipe).
>
>water pipes should never, ever be used to carry current.
In this case only for testing, by temporarily plugging into a
non-GFI outlet. The thing is from the year one - there is
no hint of a UL label, or ANY label for that matter. It is
more a curiosity than anything else. A better example would be
if I had some type of appliance which sometimes leaked to ground
and I wanted to see if it otherwise worked properly before
deciding whether to fix it.
Rich
Douglas Rand
3) If I wanted to test something that generated
trips (like John with the refrigerator+greenplug)
I'd have no where to plug it in. This has
actually happened - someone gave me a very old
spot water heater that hooks up on the faucet.
I guess it heats the water by actually shooting
current into it (and the water is grounded via
the pipe).
But why would you want such a dangerous appliance? Cold
water pipes should never, ever be used to carry current.
Doug
steven.t.heinsius
corrector... but all of the test setups have a motor under no
load...not real life.
I would like to see a real test of a loaded fridg.
Steve
(ps most big motors have some type of cap (eg oil) to correct the power
factor)
----------------
From article <76386780...@holos0.UUCP>, by l...@holos0.UUCP (Len Reed):
John De Armond
>In article <CMxF7...@pica.army.mil> rsi...@pica.army.mil (Richard Siegelman (FSS)) writes:
> 3) If I wanted to test something that generated
> trips (like John with the refrigerator+greenplug)
> I'd have no where to plug it in. This has
> actually happened - someone gave me a very old
> spot water heater that hooks up on the faucet.
> I guess it heats the water by actually shooting
> current into it (and the water is grounded via
> the pipe).
>But why would you want such a dangerous appliance? Cold
>water pipes should never, ever be used to carry current.
They don't work that way. Direct electric water heaters work
by passing current through the water from a pair (single phase)
or a triple (three phase) electrodes. No ground current should
ever happen unless there is a malfunction.
This technique is efficient, very responsive to load and works
even with distilled water if the voltage is high enough. I once
performed the startup testing on a 50 Megawatt aux steam boiler
in a nuclear plant. This boiler consisted of a tank about 6 ft in
diameter and 30 feet high. Electrodes ran from bottom to top and
exited through large insulators at the top. 14,400 volts, three
phase was applied through an SCR phase angle controller to the
electrodes. This thing would go from cold shutdown to full
steam in seconds. The entire tank was mounted on insulators
and was grounded through one lead which contained a current
monitor. The boiler was specified to trip on 100 ma of ground
current. Ground current indicated that one or more electrodes
were fouling with deposits.
Back to GFIs. If one wants to test the function of the GFI and doesn't
trust the built-in test button, a testing device is available from
places like Home Depot and generally costs less than $15. Mine
has 3 lights which indicates the ground status and a pushbutton
which causes an immediate trip of the GFI. I test all my GFIs with
this device a couple of times a year.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA j...@dixie.com
Performance Engineering Magazine. Email to me published at my sole discretion
Suppose Clinton were choking on food and you were the only one present.
Would you: a) pack in more food, b) duct tape his mouth shut, c) handcuff
his hands behind his back, d) all of the above.
Paul Houtz
: > I don't know.
: This is the key phrase in anything Houtz writes.
His lack of facts prevents him from addressing my concern so
he resorts to ad hominem attacks.
Your theory as to the cause of the destruction is sound, but
theory and reality don't always match up.
Your attack of me above proves nothing, except that you are an
asshole, which most of the net already knows.
Nonetheless, you are a knowledgable asshole, so, as I acknowledged
in my post, you *may* be right.
: I am now 100% convinced that the Green Plug totaled this refrigerator.
: I'm going to write a letter to the Green Plug guys and see if they
: will cover the cost of fixing the refrigerator. Then I'm going to
: put the refrig with a new compressor back on the replacement Green
: Plug and see if this repeats. yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment :-)
Now, you see, John, if you were "100% convinced", then why would
you need to repeat the experiment with a new compressor?
Logic, my friend, logic. Logic dictates that if your theory
is absolutely correct, and you are "100%" convinced, then there
is no need for additional evidence.
You prove my point. Because you see the need to repeat the test,
you see the need for more evidence, as I did. I will be much
better convinced if your second compressor fails.
I actually have always believed that you MAY be right. As I said,
I was ready to take your posting into my local "green plug" retailer.
Since you are now going to address my concern by repeating the
test, I am gratified. Personally, I am afraid that even if you are
right, it may take quite a bit longer for the new compressor to
fail. Too bad you couldn't dig up another 17 year old compressor
to put in it.
By the way, I have been mislead more by people who claim to know
than by people who are willing to admit that they "don't know"
when this is the case.
I appreciate the service you are doing in performing this test.
I do not appreciate your childish attitude toward anyone who
questions your methods, but since I have kids of my own, I have
learned patience and tolerance.
H. M. Szenes
is: 'did the green plug kill the fridge?' bear in mind that the type of
fridge is crucial.
Should it be a GE note that they've been running a slew of premature
compressor failures (for which their giving unimpressive coupons).
Hal
========================================================================
H. M. SZENES HOUSING DEPARTMENT SZENES@PUCC
PRINCETON UNIVERSITY 609.258.5641
Pat
plug in somewhere else, where the outlets don't have GFI's and if neccessary
run a extension cord.
pat
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be decisive, even if it means sometimes you'll be wrong -- LLIB #358
Willie Smith
>> I don't know.
>This is the key phrase in anything Houtz writes.
Note that John De Arse also doesn't _know_, as he hasn't properly
performed anything like a scientific experiment. A larger sample
size, double-blind testing, before and after inspection of the
compressor motors involved, etc, etc, etc, would be far more
meaningfull than "my fridge burned out".
While John does have an interesting hypothesis, and a very small
amount of data that appears to back it up, he doesn't _know_ any more
about it than any of the rest of us.
--
Willie Smith wp...@pictel.com N1...@amsat.org
Some people you don't have to satirize, you just quote em - Tom Paxton
Jon Ziegler
> ... [insulting crap deleted] ...
>While John does have an interesting hypothesis, and a very small
>amount of data that appears to back it up, he doesn't _know_ any more
>about it than any of the rest of us.
John has provided a bunch of raw data along with his educated guesses.
Willie has provided a scathing opinion defending the "we don't know anything
for sure" position. I think it is obvious which is more valuable to the
readers of this group.
I, for one, am grateful that John has put in the time and effort to make
his measurements. I have a GreenPlug on my refrigerator. I have done no
measurements, but I am sure it makes it run quieter. It has been on the
plug for about six months now, and shows no signs of distress. I am sure
that at some point we can conduct a survey and collect more data of a
similar anecdotal nature. But the kind of information that John has
provided takes work and knowledge. Willie's kind of criticism takes only
the urge to pontificate.
Thanks, John.
Jon
--
/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\
[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\]Jon Ziegler <jo...@netcom.com> }
[////////////////] Cupertino, CA }
\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/~~\/
Douglas Rand
j...@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>g...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Paul Houtz) writes:
>> I don't know.
>This is the key phrase in anything Houtz writes.
Note that John De Arse also doesn't _know_, as he hasn't properly
performed anything like a scientific experiment. A larger sample
size, double-blind testing, before and after inspection of the
compressor motors involved, etc, etc, etc, would be far more
meaningfull than "my fridge burned out".
Double blind testing is irrelevant here. Double blind testing
is important when testing things like drugs where either
the subjects, testers or both can be influenced by knowing
which drug is being tested.
While John does have an interesting hypothesis, and a very small
amount of data that appears to back it up, he doesn't _know_ any more
about it than any of the rest of us.
While I have my problems with Mr. De Armond's demeanor, I think
he's had an interesting experiment that might be suggestive,
and is apparently enough of a glutton for punishment that he's
willing to try it again.
Clearly he's in no position to test dozens of different models
and many samples of each.
patterson,george r
>I, for one, am grateful that John has put in the time and effort to make
>his measurements.
I second this.
>I am sure
>that at some point we can conduct a survey and collect more data of a
>similar anecdotal nature.
Drop a line when it's time. I've got one on a dehumidifier.
pat...@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Last night, I saw upon the stair
| a little man who wasn't there.
George Patterson - | He wasn't there again today.
| Gee, I wish he'd go away.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John De Armond
>Willie Smith <wp...@newshost.pictel.com> farted:
>I, for one, am grateful that John has put in the time and effort to make
>his measurements. I have a GreenPlug on my refrigerator. I have done no
>measurements, but I am sure it makes it run quieter. It has been on the
>plug for about six months now, and shows no signs of distress. I am sure
>that at some point we can conduct a survey and collect more data of a
>similar anecdotal nature. But the kind of information that John has
>provided takes work and knowledge. Willie's kind of criticism takes only
>the urge to pontificate.
>Thanks, John.
You're welcome.
Now some more info. I decided to take a slightly different path
with this refrigerator than I previously mentioned. I had originally
planned on replacing the original burned out compressor with a new
one and running it on a new Green Plug to see if it would smoke another
compressor. But after looking my data over I decided to do something
kinda radical. I observed from the "before Greenplug" data that
the original ~700 BTU/hr compressor ran on a duty cycle of about
50% with a period of about 15 minutes. When the compressor started, it
spent a significant period of time pumping down during which it
drew about half again as much power. I theorized that if I could
size the compressor nearer to the capacity needed, I could lengthen
the interval for starting and stopping and thus save some energy.
To test this theory, I installed a 440 BTU/hr compressor.
The preliminary results of this experiment looks real good. The
compressor runs almost continuously. The average draw as measured
by a watt-hour meter is about 160 watts. This is preliminary because it
has only been running on the new compressor a week. Before the green
plug, the average draw over a month was 173 watts. With the Green Plug,
the average draw over another month was 161 watts. Looks like my guess
was pretty close :-) I now have a refrigerator which is saving
power at almost exactly the same rate as before with the Green Plug
only now I don't have any electronics to screw up. And since I had
to change the compressor anyway, it cost me nothing.
I should note here too, that I changed NOTHING except the compressor.
I did NOT resize the capillary tube. I would expect to see a bit
more improvement were I to change the capillary tube to match the
reduced compressor capacity.
I should also note that the tradeoff in this deal is that the refrigerator
cannot handle the same heat load as before. That means that hot objects
will NOT be cooled as fast as before. In my case, this is acceptable
because I use the refrig mostly for cold drinks and ice.
My next experiment will be to run THIS setup on the Green Plug and see
what happens. Then I'm going to replace the R-12 refrigerant
wtih George Goble's high efficiency substitute (tentatively given the
ASHRAE designation R-406a) and see what happens. In a car environment,
I have measured a cooling capacity increase of over 20% though I have
no easy way of measuring efficiency. The 'frig will be a good
experiment.
BTW, anyone who wants to test their refrigerator can do so very easily.
The westinghouse watt-hour meters I use are available surplus for
$15 from C&H sales (800 325 9465). They are available in either
5 amp (P/N WM7801) or 15 amps (P/N WM9051). These are old and used
but I've bought several and each has tested against my NBS traceable
lab standard watt-hour meter to better than spec. A meter, a $20
meter base, a power cord and an electrical outlet are all the parts required
to make an appliance meter.
Topher Eliot
here on the net said it had accomplished that for them. Indeed my fridge
did seem to run quieter, but then it took to making these coke-bottles-
bonking-together sounds (don't you love these technical descriptions :-)
that I decided were due to the compressor rattling around. It definitely
was not coming from inside the fridge. Then it started making other
odd noises, and combined with the anecdotal evidence I've seen here, I've
decided to remove the Green Plug. Anyway, it wasn't doing the job of keeping
it quiet.
My fridge is of unknown age; it was in a house we bought from an estate (i.e.
previous owner had died).
My two cents.
--
Topher Eliot Data General Unix Core Development
(919) 248-6371 el...@dg-rtp.dg.com
Obviously, I speak for myself, not for DG.
misc.consumers.house archivist. Send mail to house-...@dg-rtp.dg.com
Power User: a user who has an overinflated opinion of himself.
Willie Smith
>Willie Smith <wp...@newshost.pictel.com> wrote:
>> ... [insulting crap deleted] ...
Hmm, someone insults JDA, master of invective, skilled flamer. So what?
>John has provided a bunch of raw data along with his educated guesses.
>Willie has provided a scathing opinion defending the "we don't know anything
>for sure" position. I think it is obvious which is more valuable to the
>readers of this group.
Willie, and others, have tried to point out that a single datapoint,
which appears to point an accusing finger at the Green Plug burning
out a fridge, is pretty meaningless. It's equally valid, given the
data, to say the fridge burned out the Green Plug. John's hypothesis,
my hypothesis, your hypothesis, are equally meaningless.
>that at some point we can conduct a survey and collect more data of a
>similar anecdotal nature. But the kind of information that John has
>provided takes work and knowledge. Willie's kind of criticism takes only
>the urge to pontificate.
Anecdotal data _is_ nice to hear, and I actually read John's post with
interest. However, John's conclusion, that Green Plugs ruin fridges,
is, given the data, pretty far-fetched. I was just trying to warn the
readers of this thread that a single inconclusive datapoint should not
be taken as a scientific experiment damning the Green Plug. And, yes,
I do failure isolation and analysis all day long using scientific
procedures and carefully designed experiments (and I've been wrong in
my 'conclusions' a number of times), and I know for a fact that John's
conclusion is at best a guess.
Watch my lips move - It just ain't science!
John De Armond
>Anecdotal data _is_ nice to hear, and I actually read John's post with
>interest. However, John's conclusion, that Green Plugs ruin fridges,
>is, given the data, pretty far-fetched. I was just trying to warn the
>readers of this thread that a single inconclusive datapoint should not
>be taken as a scientific experiment damning the Green Plug. And, yes,
>I do failure isolation and analysis all day long using scientific
>procedures and carefully designed experiments (and I've been wrong in
>my 'conclusions' a number of times),
If you don't conclude any better than you quote (or even paraphrase),
I can understand your mistakes. To correct the record, what
I said is this. My green plug killed my refrigerator. I *KNOW*
this much. From the operational characteristics I observed and my
couple of decades of refrigeration experience, it is likely this thing
will kill other refrigerators. That is what I said THEN. NOW I have
more info.
>and I know for a fact that John's
>conclusion is at best a guess.
Funny thing is, my "guesses" are almost always right.
I've had a spirited exchange of messages via a third party with
Chris Riggio, chief engineer at Green Technologies, Inc. Following
is the relevant part of our communications:
To: John De Armond, Performance Engineering Magazine
From: Chris Riggio
Subject: GreenPlug Experience
In response to John De Armond's GreenPlug experience. The destruction
process you described in your March 15, 1994 text is indicative of a
failure mode called half cycling. While this misfortune is rare it can
and does occur. A more rigorous analysis (for those so inclined) would
have included voltage and current waveforms on several GreenPlugs as a
means of detecting the cause of failure. A properly functioning GreenPlug
has a soft start ramp that elapses in five line cycle or 82 milliseconds
during a motor start. The advantages of this design philosophy are self
evident to those skilled in the motor design art and are well understood
in industry. When voltage is applied symmetrically to a motor load in a
ramped profile, shaft rotation begins before peak current is reached.
This allows the overall start current to be reduced as well as reducing
winding and laminate stresses. The exception to this, as evidenced by
your ammeter, and eventually the compressor, is the half wave rectified
output induced by a faulty plug. This condition will certainly increase
motor current and suspend or prevent motor starting. Our failure rate for
GreenPlugs as a percentage of total production to date is approximately
0.2%, not bad for Power Control Electronics.
We certainly understand and accept the responsibility that comes with
interposing a voltage controller between the line and it's load. I think
you will find our customer service policies to be commensurate. Usually,
people recognize a malfunction of the type you described by virtue of the
low frequency hum, flickering cabinet light, or tripping of the thermal
breaker which are common to half cycling malfunction. In your case, return
for replacement would have yielded additional insight as to the real
malfunction and maybe saved you and us a compessor repair, barring, of
course, a bad compressor going in.
I never tell everything I know the first time around and this is no exception.
Riggio's enthusiastic claim that the green plug failed in the half cycle
mode (where only half the 60 cycle waveform is passed to the
refrigerator, resulting in a high DC component and heating.) tells me
that this is a common failure mode. It also tells me that my conjecture
that this "soft start" mode is really to protect an under-rated power
semi-conductor was right on the money. What I didn't say in my first post
is that I had a digital storage scope connected to the output of the
green plug at all times and at no time was half cycling apparent.
I have the hard copy screen dumps to prove it too.
Another thing I didn't mention (mainly because it is mostly irrelevant
to this dicussion) is that I ran my observations past a friend of mine
who does small motor failure analysis under contract for several
insurance companies and he agreed with my conclusions.
More important, since half-cycling is a predictable failure mode and
since this thing has to monitor the current and voltage waveforms in
order to function, it is reckless for the green plug to not detect this
failure mode and shut down. Food would be ruined but at least the
refrigerator would not be damaged. It would really be nice too, if that
nice little green light on the front was designed to go out when the
thing failed. Mine still shines brightly. Connecting it to the output
terminals would do the trick.
A couple of other important things are evident from his message.
The most glaring thing is the failure rate, 0.2% - 2 failures for
every thousand units. By any measure, this is a hideously high
failure rate, particularly for a device which controls the fate of
appliances which may cost thousands of dollars. Finally, his last
paragraph tells me that they're fixing a lot of refrigerators.
It should be fair warning to those who continue using their green
plug.
As I've said before, I am greatly disappointed by this product. It is
a genuinly good idea but with a terrible implementation. Depending
on the local power rate, a properly designed green plug would save
enough energy to pay for itself in a couple of years and from there
on out, it would be free money, allbeit a small amount. I wouldn't even
have much of a fault with the unit if it had a high failure rate but
detected said failures and either shut down or even better, went
into pass-thru mode accompanied by an alarm (such as using a bi-color
LED and having it change from green to red or even simply to go out.),
assuming they really do have a no-questions-asked warranty. (and I have
no reason to believe they don't.) This would add only a trivial amount of
cost to the product. As it is, this thing has a high rate failure mode
and the mode identified by Riggio WILL toast whatever is plugged
into the device. This is unacceptable.
The only criticism from Riggio that is a bit legitimate is that I should
test several plugs and refrigerators. Were I writing a refereed paper
for the IEEE Spectrum or ASHRAE, I would. As it is, I have absolutely
no intention of spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on multiple
unit testing just so I can write a free Usenet article. If anyone
doesn't like that, well..... Tough shit, pardon my french. If someone
wants to fund such a test program, I'm available.
The bottom line is, if you think putting your up-to-several thousand
dollar refrigerator at risk to save a buck a month or less in power is
a good idea, go right ahead and get one of these gadgets. If not,
you can probably save as much energy by turning off the butter warmer.
So Willie, seems my "guess" wasn't so far off, after all, huh?
That tends to happen after a few years of age and experience.
Oh, and BTW. You're a rank amateur in the rebuttal game.
Work on it a few years. You'll get there.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA j...@dixie.com
Performance Engineering Magazine. Email to me published at my sole discretion
"If we let this leak, it'll just kill him" Clinton about Vince Foster
Steve Daukas
: >Anecdotal data _is_ nice to hear, and I actually read John's post with
: >interest. However, John's conclusion, that Green Plugs ruin fridges,
: >is, given the data, pretty far-fetched.
I'm hitting this thread a bit in the middle, so forgive me if this has
already been pointed out...
I have three bits of info about the green plug, two personal, and one
review by Consumer's Report Magazine.
CR review was very interesting (I'll cite a reference if asked - its at home).
It basically said two things: 1 - its a waste of money and only delivers
a typical 8% savings in energy consumption on _old_ appliances. 2 - It
has actually been shown to cause an _increase_ of power usage on newer
models - not in all cases, but it was measured. This article points out
that newer models already have an energy saver built-in, and this will
compete with the green plug causing increased consumption and possible
damage to the appliance. CR's recomendation was to buy a new model
fridge/freezer because the payback period is _shorter_.
OK, time for personal experiences. I bought two green plugs (before
reading the above article). I used one on a old freezer chest, and one
on a new jen-air fridge. I noticed something interesting about the
directions: You _MUST_ turn down the setting in your fridge by one
increment- no explaination offered. I immediately thought - Hmmmm, is
this how they save energy? Anyway, after a few days usage, the freezer
chest was doing just fine, but I couldn't keep ice cream frozen in the
fridge (freezer section). So, I turned up the setting. Then came
Saturday... I heard the most god awful noise from the fridge's
compressor area - I ran over and decided to turn-off the energy saver
switch, play with controls, etc.. (Why I thought of the switch, I can't
say - perhaps it was the EE background.) At any rate, as soon as the switch
went off, the compressor kicked-in and all was well. I decided to turn the
switch back on and wait (with the door open). Same thing again on the
next start-up.
Well, I took the plug out and brought it back to the store. I went to
the electrical section and before I could open my mouth I heard: We arn't
selling them anymore, they don't work and have caused damage to many
people's appliances. We will refund your money, no questions asked.
I explained that I hadn't experienced any damage and explained what I
observed. The dept manager (an EE who just happened to do power supply
design before retiring) explained that you simply can't use these plugs
on newer equipment, the failure rate is to high and you have two similar
devices in competition with one another. The looser is the compressor getting
pulsed - the last thing you want a compressor to have experience.
(I wondered if he was parroting the CR article...) He explained that he
didn't make the purchasing decision, but he did remove them when he saw the
inventory, but he was a bit late.
I asked, how many returns? He replied - 18 so far today. I asked him
about older units with straight compressors. no fancy circuits built-in.
He said this would be OK, but to keep an eye on things for a while, especially
if prone to brown-outs and other electrical problems.
So. my fridge is back to normal, and my freezer chest seems to be OK.
As an aside, my father-in-law has had to remove a green plug on his fridge
as well. He said he couldn't keep anything frozen. When I told him about
my experience, he returned all three plugs.
Regards,
Steve
--
------------------------------.---------------------------------------------.
| Stephen C. Daukas | Internet: s...@atria.com |
| Manager, Technical Marketing | ste...@atria.com |
| Member of Technical Staff | ...!uunet!gw!scd |
| Atria Software, Inc. | 72420...@compuserve.com |
| 24 Prime Park Way | CompuServe: 72420,2261 |
| Natick, Ma. USA 01760 | Voice: (508) 650-5145 |
`------------------------------^---------------------------------------------'
JAMES COPP
I had commented several months ago on how the principle of this device seems
somewhat at odds with preferred motor control practice. Now I'll ask the
question: Has anyone actually disected one of these units and determined how
they work? Specifically, what kind of control topology is in use? I seem to
recall (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that these things simply reduced
the voltage delivered to the motor. Whether they use current or voltage
feedback would seem rather important would it not? If the voltage is simply
reduced, then the motor torque will drop, the slip will increase, and the
speed will decrease. The efficiency here will decrease, and more heat will
be generated in the motor, eventually it would seem from the above accounts,
causing failure. If anyone has a schematic of this unit, or even a first hand
account of its operating mode, I would like to hear it. We have seen what
appear to be some reasonable, scientific observations of the black ...er green
box, now lets take it apart!
Leigh Copp
jc...@ee.ryerson.ca
Willie Smith
>If you don't conclude any better than you quote (or even paraphrase),
Someone informed me that the beginning of my previous message was
trashed, but it's expired here, so I apologise for whatever it was.
I've poked around in the news spool at a local commercial site, and my
posting looks fine, but that's hardly relevant.
The rest of John's missive is less clear. The folks at Green Plug
have a known failure mode, which _isn't_ what blew up JDA's fridge, as
per his claims of having a storage scope connected at all times. They
also hint that they accept responsibility for the compressor failure,
and will fix John's fridge for him. (I dunno if the fact that John
has ripped everything apart will effect their warrantee...)
>I never tell everything I know the first time around and this is no exception.
Ah, so you can make up more data to 'prove' your hypothesis if anyone
challenges your conclusion... 8*]
>A couple of other important things are evident from [Green Plug's] message.
>The most glaring thing is the failure rate, 0.2% - 2 failures for
>every thousand units. By any measure, this is a hideously high
>failure rate, particularly for a device which controls the fate of
>appliances which may cost thousands of dollars. Finally, his last
>paragraph tells me that they're fixing a lot of refrigerators.
>It should be fair warning to those who continue using their green
>plug.
I dunno, I probably take higher risks driving to work than that, but
the fact that the Green Plug folks cheerfully fix any fridges their
product may have ruined makes this a pretty innocuous risk. In fact,
a Green Plug might be an interesting way to add a new warrantee to an
old fridge. 8*) On the other tentacle, we've got a modern fridge, and
these power factor controllers don't help any on modern fridges, so
for us it's a wash.
>So Willie, seems my "guess" wasn't so far off, after all, huh?
Which guess was that, John? You still haven't proven that your green
plug burned out your fridge (you have, in fact, _ruled_ _out_ what the
Green Plug folks claim is the predominant failure mode), and if you
still think, even with this additional data that you claim to have
gathered, that an uncontrolled experiment, with no knowledge of
initial conditions, and a sample size of one, 'proves' that the Green
Plug killed your fridge, you've got a lot to learn about statistics,
the scientific method, and design of experiments.
>That tends to happen after a few years of age and experience.
If anyone is still reading at this point, please note that JDA is a
couple of months more than Five Whole Years [wow!] older than I. He
puts this on his resume to impress potential clients and employers, as
if it matters. 8*]
>Oh, and BTW. You're a rank amateur in the rebuttal game.
>Work on it a few years. You'll get there.
I don't _want_ to get the reputation JDA has, the net isn't my life.
It's only here for it's entertainment value, with the occasional
useful piece of information sifted from the noise.
Paul Houtz
>I've had a spirited exchange of messages via a third party with
>Chris Riggio, chief engineer at Green Technologies, Inc. Following
>is the relevant part of our communications:
>
> ... The exception to this, as evidenced by
> your ammeter, and eventually the compressor, is the half wave rectified
> output induced by a faulty plug. This condition will certainly increase
> motor current and suspend or prevent motor starting. Our failure rate for
> GreenPlugs as a percentage of total production to date is approximately
> 0.2%, not bad for Power Control Electronics.
Mr. Dee Armond's green plug was faulty in the first place. If he
had called the customer service, they would have informed him of that,
he could have replaced it gratis with another, and the fridge would
still be working.
I am going out and buying some Green Plugs for my appliances. Sounds
like they are a pretty good product. Sounds like they have good
customer service, too.
IF you use it.
Don Borowski
[lots of stuff from original posting deleted]
: I had commented several months ago on how the principle of this device seems
: somewhat at odds with preferred motor control practice. Now I'll ask the
: question: Has anyone actually disected one of these units and determined how
: they work? Specifically, what kind of control topology is in use? I seem to
: recall (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that these things simply reduced
: the voltage delivered to the motor. Whether they use current or voltage
: feedback would seem rather important would it not? If the voltage is simply
: reduced, then the motor torque will drop, the slip will increase, and the
: speed will decrease. The efficiency here will decrease, and more heat will
: be generated in the motor, eventually it would seem from the above accounts,
: causing failure. If anyone has a schematic of this unit, or even a first hand
: account of its operating mode, I would like to hear it. We have seen what
: appear to be some reasonable, scientific observations of the black ...er green
: box, now lets take it apart!
You are thinking of the problem at the wrong end of the voltage scale.
Think about an induction motor with a little bit too much voltage applied.
Slip is reduced just a bit, but losses are higher and power factor is worse
since the magnetic fields are stronger than necessary, and stronger than
the optimum design value. In this case, REDUCING the voltage a bit will
increase efficiency. This is what the Green Plug tries to do. It does
it by using a conduction angle of less than 180 degrees per half-cycle.
It adjusts the conduction angle in response to the power factor that it
measures.
Apparently, in the past, in order to insure that the compressor motor would
not stall at the low line voltage limit, it was made to run somewhat above
its most efficient voltage when operating at the nominal line voltage of
120 volts. Perhaps newer designs use a little more copper and iron so that
the motor is running close to its optimum efficiency over a larger voltage
range. Another poster has indicated that some refriferators already include
a circuit like the Green Plug, and so adding another one won't help, and can
actually cause harm.
Donald Borowski WA6OMI Hewlett-Packard, Spokane Division
"Angels are able to fly because they take themselves so lightly."
-G.K. Chesterton
Dan Jones
> j...@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>
> >I've had a spirited exchange of messages via a third party with
> >Chris Riggio, chief engineer at Green Technologies, Inc. Following
> >is the relevant part of our communications:
> >
> > ... The exception to this, as evidenced by
> > your ammeter, and eventually the compressor, is the half wave rectified
> > output induced by a faulty plug. This condition will certainly increase
> > motor current and suspend or prevent motor starting. Our failure rate f
> > GreenPlugs as a percentage of total production to date is approximately
> > 0.2%, not bad for Power Control Electronics.
>
>
> Mr. Dee Armond's green plug was faulty in the first place. If he
> had called the customer service, they would have informed him of that,
> he could have replaced it gratis with another, and the fridge would
> still be working.
>
> I am going out and buying some Green Plugs for my appliances. Sounds
> like they are a pretty good product. Sounds like they have good
> customer service, too.
>
> IF you use it.
This reply is over the line. At best, it suffers from selective
quotation. Although I am not a fan of heated exchanges, I prefer them
to misguided attempts to mislead general readers of this news group.
I doubt that many people are prepared to troubleshoot subpar operation
of their AC appliances or have the ability to isolate to the faulty
component. And, I say this after having a month's worth of experience
going around with my contractor, his electrian and our electrical
service company trying to isolate a high resistance neutral in our AC
service. This turned out to be trivial in hindsight.
Anyone is welcome to use the green plug, but a number of posts indicate
that the risk may outway the benefit. If, in fact, there is any benefit,
which seems to depend upon the age of the applicance.
I also believe that a 0.2% failure rate is way too high for anything
connected to AC. I've had a dimmer once char itself to death in a
switch receptacle in our dining room and I don't like the idea of
things getting extremely hot in my house except me or in the fire place.
Dan Jones
Parallan Computer, Inc "Now..., you tell me what you know." G. Marx
Mark Robert Thorson
to buy a Green Plug. About 1/3 of my energy bill goes to feed a
dehumidifier used to keep my book collection at a good humidity
level, so I was really thinkng about using a Green Plug. This
machine cycles on and off several times per day, about as often
as my refrigerator, and the lights flicker when it kicks on, so
I thought there might be some room for energy savings.
What really helped was last summer, when I paid a friend of mine
$50 to line about half my garage with poly film. The "capsule"
constructed of film, poly tape, and filament tape (where
reinforcement is needed) encloses five bookcases and several
stacks of books with roughly equal volume. The walk-in capsule
has a double airlock, with doors (actually, curtains of poly film
secured on two edges) that have small rare-earth magnets as closures.
The magnets were made for hard disk drives, and I bought a bunch
of them at a local surplus place. They're neat because they are
lightweight, but have excellent holding force. They snap together when
they get within an inch of each other.
Before building the capsule, I would need to empty the bucket on the
dehumidifier every 1 to 3 days. Now, it's more like 7 to 10 days.
Also, when it was very windy, the plastic sheets in my earlier
setup would billow like crazy. The new completely-sealed system hardly
waves during a windstorm.
Eric Perozziello
>g...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Paul Houtz) writes:
>> j...@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>> > Our failure rate for GreenPlugs as a percentage of total
>> > production to date is approximately 0.2%, not bad for Power
>> > Control Electronics.
>> Sounds like they have good customer service, too. IF you use it.
>I also believe that a 0.2% failure rate is way too high for anything
>connected to AC.
I also agree that this is way too high, especially considering that
this number is based on getting returns from the people who use
their "excellent customer service". I know that, for $30, I probably
wouldn't bother to send in a defective unit (I'm lazy that way, as
I imagine many others are). So I wonder what the REAL failure rate
is....
-Eric
Caleb Hess
way to boost the efficiency of the average refrigerator. Locate the
condenser coils, clean thoroughly (accumulated dust is a good thermal
insulator), and ensure plenty of airflow around the coils. We hadn't done
this since moving in last summer; apparently the previous owner hadn't
done it for quite some time as well.
Paul Houtz
>> Mr. Dee Armond's green plug was faulty in the first place. If he
>> had called the customer service, they would have informed him of that,
>> he could have replaced it gratis with another, and the fridge would
>> still be working.
>>
>> I am going out and buying some Green Plugs for my appliances. Sounds
>> like they are a pretty good product. Sounds like they have good
>> customer service, too.
>>
>> IF you use it.
>
>This reply is over the line. At best, it suffers from selective
>quotation. Although I am not a fan of heated exchanges, I prefer them
>to misguided attempts to mislead general readers of this news group.
Nonsense.
>I doubt that many people are prepared to troubleshoot subpar operation
>of their AC appliances or have the ability to isolate to the faulty
>component. And, I say this after having a month's worth of experience
But if you read the reply from the Green Plug people, they were willing
to repair the damaged refridgerator, if only Mr. Dee-Armond had contacted
them BEFORE he repaired it himself. So, what is the risk?
Paul Houtz
----------
We had a friend who's refrigerator was running continuously. They
had moved into their home and the fridge was part of the deal.
They didn't know anything was wrong, but I mentioned cleaning the
coils, so he and I went out and bought a coil brush and did the
job. 5 minutes later the fan and compressor shut off. He thought
the machine was broken. He said the silence in the kitchen was
eerie.
Two months later they got there adjusted PGE bill and it was 40 dollars
lower.