Matrix Reloaded: The Architect's Speech Analyzed (LONG)
Andrei Herasimchuk
wait until November? Because I feel like it and I think its fun. I think
some others would agree. If you don't like over-analyzing movie dialogue and
plot points, then STOP READING RIGHT NOW.
Good. That's out of the way.
Things we can assume to a certain degree up to the point of the Architect's
interaction with Neo:
1) Agent Smith can upload himself into a real human.
Given the nature of the man/machine relationship in the movie, with humans
jacked into the Matrix living inside the simulation, and how humans can
obviously be controlled and manipulated through connections in the brain, I
think we have to assume that the Smith Virus has re-wired Bane's brain. How
this affects the outcome of Revolutions will be interesting, but it should
be a big clue that there is a little bit going on in the machine can control
human part of the equation. (More on that much later.)
2) There was a war between men and machines, as outlined in the Second
Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 of the Animatrix. We have to believe real humans
exist. Also, Tank in the first movie talks about being pure, born and raised
in the real world. We see all sorts of humans without the holes and machine
connectors. For the story to have any meaning, I think the story has to
ultimately be about real people to a certain degree. I don't buy the Matrix
within a Matrix piece based on what has been told so far across the
storyline.
3) The Oracle appears to be on the good side. Maybe the Oracle is on the
Architect's side, but her comments give no indication that she is operating
for the bad side. Also, remember the view Neo has of Seraph? He's gold code.
This leads me to believe that rogue software in the Matrix is working on
it's own, living *inside* the simulation in a manner similar to humans.
There's nothing to say that machines and software, as an evolved form of
intelligence, don't have their own agendas, right? We evolved from apes and
have our own perceptions of the universe.... the machines seemed to have
done the same thing. And as seen in the Animatrix, the machines have
"bodies" and exist outside the Matrix as well. The Oracle appears jacked
into the Matrix herself. (How she uses the backdoors alludes to this.)
Now... onto the scene...
----------
The Architect - Hello, Neo.
Neo - Who are you?
The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting
for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you
will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your
first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is
also irrelevant.
//**********
//**********
First, the Architect claims to be the one who coded the Matrix. (The Matrix
is a software simulation, don't forget.) We probably should assume this
character is a sentient machine, and that machines have all the abilities
and nuances of intelligence that humans are capable of. Maybe even more.
Given the Animatrix series, especially the Second Renaissance parts 1 and 2,
we could also assume machines have their own agenda, their own intelligence,
their own sense of purpose and being that is in many ways equivalent to our
own consciousness. We could also assume the Architect is jacked into the
Matrix like Neo is, and we are therefore seeing an instantiation of his form
in the Matrix. They (Neo and The Architect) are both still inside the
simulation itself.
The "process" the Architect refers to is probably the path Neo has followed
so far, and his abilities that have been formed since learning the Matrix
was a simulation. It has altered Neo's consciousness. Neo knows more,
perceives more, thinks about the world in a different way now that he has
been woken up. He can control the software code, hack the system as well,
see and hear things other humans cannot. But Neo is *still* human. The
Architect says this. But maybe this only half of his meaning? (More on that
later.)
As a human being, the Architect is making the bold claim that what the
Architect will say will be meaningless to Neo. We probably should assume the
Architect thinks humans are on a lesser order than machines. (Like most
humans think of every other animal on the planet as a lesser being than
highly evolved apes.) His attitude and the way he converses in this scene
would validate this notion.
The Architect also tells Neo that his first question will be the most
irrelevant. I think the Wachowski's are putting a brutal play on what
happens in "life after death" concept from most religions here. When we die,
many of us who are religious believe we'll have an experience that might
match the notion of going to meet our God in the sky so all can be explained
to us. The Architect is playing into this with Neo, he appears to Neo in
this form. Too bad he has very bad news.
This intro paragraph puts some motive behind the Architect's dialogue that
follows below. This intelligent form of life believes itself to be on a
higher order than man, the one also tricking man into maintaining themselves
as slaves, and probably justifies its slavery of mankind in the same
fashion.
Again, go watch the Animatrix stuff.
**********//
**********//
Neo - Why am I here?
The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced
equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to
eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While
it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus
not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
//**********
//**********
The Architect basically tells Neo that he is the result of the software
error in the programming of the Matrix. The "unbalanced equation inherent to
the programming" piece is the notion of "choice" as the Architect confirms
below. That humans need "choice" in order to be tricked into believing the
simulation. The fact that choice must exist in the simulation gives rise to
one of the humans in the simulation learning enough to make it to The
Source. (And also learning enough to be a serious threat to the Matrix, and
consequently, the machines.)
Neo is the "eventuality of an anomaly." Neo exists because the software bug
allows the *condition* for him to exist in the first place. He is the result
of what happens at the peak of the software bug's conditions. If the
Architect could squash that coding bug, we probably should assume he would.
Again, the notion that the Architect thinks of itself as a higher order than
humans comes in the "mathematical precision" comment. And also makes the
Architect sounds just enough like God, in his own mind.
The Architect also keeps track of the software bug, the memory leak if you
will, and every so often has to deal with it, even though for the most part
he ignores the problem. Seems the Architect built in a function to send the
One along a path that forces the One to wind up in front of the Architect.
Or, maybe the Architect has created the simulation to the degree that it
guarantees the One will make it to the Source before the problem (Zion) gets
out of control.
**********//
**********//
Neo - You haven't answered my question.
The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What
others? How many? Answer me!'*
//**********
//**********
Great line. The Architect is impressed that Neo is a bit smarter and faster
than the others that have come before him. Evolution in action maybe? An
aspect of Neo the Architect hadn't planned for? A clue that Neo is obviously
different than the other Ones. Maybe the Oracle knows something here as
well.
This also gives us a clue that the Architect, while thinking of himself as a
higher being than man, may not be so high and mighty. He obviously wasn't
aware that Neo could come up with that answer so fast, right? The Architect
is not God, even though he presents himself in front Neo in a fashion that
resembles God.
**********//
**********//
The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from
the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which
case this is the sixth version.
*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*
//**********
//**********
The Architect is simply referring to the number of other Ones that appeared
before him. Neo is the sixth.
Note that there is nothing here to assume that the other Ones before Neo
were simply other versions of Neo. That is a possibility, but nothing done
up to now should lead us to that conclusion. I think we should expect that
Neo is himself, and is just the sixth human to make it to the Source.
As for the screens, they are monitors so the Architect can watch activity
inside the Matrix. They may even be a debugging system for him. But when
they switch into showing Neo, if the Architect is a machine, it is very
likely that it thinks like a machine, maybe like one that plays chess. A
machine would probably run all sorts of simulations to map out all possible
responses from Neo, and from what it appears to be in the movie, this is
what is happening. The screens show various simulations of Neo's responses
working in real time (they have really fast computers in the future
obviously), honing in on the response that Neo eventually speaks.
**********//
**********//
Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
one knows.
The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's
systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You
can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do
anything!*
//**********
//**********
It would seem that since only five other humans have ever made it to this
room, no one (at least no other human) knows about the Architect and that's
why no one knows that this series of events has occurred multiple times. The
other Ones choose to save humanity and rebuild Zion after the machines
destroy it.
How that information gets lost in history is unknown, but given how much we
have lost of our own history as time moves forward, it seems plausible that
those in Zion have not passed the information down correctly from generation
to generation.
Further, the Architect says the software bug, the thing that allows Neo to
exist and become the One, is systemic. It permeates throughout the entire
simulation. It cannot be gotten rid of, it seems, and is inherent to the
coding of the Matrix itself. The problem can never go away. Why?...
**********//
**********//
Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.
*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architects room*
//**********
//**********
Bingo. Neo figures out the problem. Why the bug exists, and to a certain
extent, what plagues the Architect. Pisses him off even.
**********//
**********//
The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it
was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now
as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I
redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying
grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I
have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required
a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.
Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program,
initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I
am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
//**********
//**********
The Architect seems kind of peeved that he had to "dumb down" the features
of the software to accommodate human nature, and program in choice (or free
will) so the humans would believe the simulation. (And great allusions
towards the story of Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden, the place God
made perfect for his creation, right? So many twists and turns in what the
Wachowski's have written into this story in this regard.)
And note the Architect speaks directly about his opinion of himself over man
here, needing a "lesser" mind to understand the problem. He needed the help
of code or a machine that was designed to investigate the human condition.
Something that studied more intuitive models of human nature.
**********//
**********//
Neo - The Oracle.
//**********
//**********
I'm still shocked by the number of people who take this hook, line and
sinker. The Architect is not talking about the Oracle, IMHO. The Oracle
seems to be on a plane almost equivalent to the Architect.
The Architect's "Please" response is said with a sense of belittlement. I
don't think we can conclude the Architect is referring to the Oracle. I
think we should conclude that the Architect is referring to Persephone.
There are many stories around Persephone playing a much larger role in
Revolutions than in Reloaded. And they gave her own poster for crying out
loud!
Persephone's motives, the need for the kiss for example, is something that
fits better with a machine designed to "investigate the human condition."
How Persephone plays out in Revolutions remains to be seen. Her kiss may
have been some transfer of knowledge that will be used against Neo in
Revolutions. Who knows...
By the way, this detail is important because it would allow the Oracle to
have motives of her own that get played out in Revolutions. She does things
in the Matrix of her own free will with her own purposes and intentions,
even though she is a machine. (She says "we're in this together" don't
forget.) So far, there's nothing that lead me to doubt her motives.
**********//
**********//
The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously
fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
//**********
//**********
With the help of Persephone's analysis of human nature, the Architect was
able to build a simulation that worked 99.9% of the time, tricking enough of
the humans hooked up to it. The good enough syndrome, eh? The problem is
that in coding the simulation to be a system that requires choice to be
inherent to the code, it leave this .1% of humans waking up and growing in
number to the point where they can threaten the simulation externally.
This, of course leads us to...
**********//
**********//
Neo - This is about Zion.
The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its
every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
//**********
//**********
After enough time has passed, the machines must obliterate Zion and the
people living there to make sure the people don't free all the human slaves
in the Matrix.
Seems pretty straight forward, doesn't it?
**********//
**********//
Neo - Bull****.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull****!*
The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But,
rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have
become exceedingly efficient at it.
*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects
room.*
//**********
//**********
There's more of the Architect acting all snobbish again. The Architect is
confident in its machine-like logic to a fault, though. Which could be a big
theme in Revolutions if the third movie is an all out war movie. Which it
looks to be.
**********//
**********//
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source,
allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the
prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23
individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected
to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately
result in the extinction of the entire human race.
//**********
//**********
This paragraph still bugs me.
It seems that the Architect is making the claim that he needs Neo in order
to reload the simulation somehow. But he only needs Neo temporarily. I just
kind of assume that the things Neo has learned on his path to
"enlightenment" are to be re-used by the Architect somehow for the next
cycle of the simulation. So the Architect can learn more and more and reach
a point where the simulation achieves "mathematical perfection" at some
point.
Basically, this entire thing seems like a military style gambit -- Do this
or we'll do that. The lesser of two evils choice. The Architect is relying
on human nature and the desire for self-preservation (in this case of the
species) to make the gambit work.
One question to be asked here: Since the number the Architect gives Neo is
23, (and note these are people *FROM* the Matrix, people who have no idea
what is going on in the real world), we can assume Neo would be 24. Two
women for every man. If it is then true that the One joins the newly freed
humans from the Matrix, why doesn't the One tell the real story so it can be
passed down? I can only guess history gets jumbled over time.
This paragraph also might give rise to the notion the Neo is just another
software program. But that explanation doesn't feel right to me if he is.
This story is too well thought out to have an exit strategy that is so easy.
But it could mean... (see below)
**********//
**********//
Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.
However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
//**********
//**********
Again, definitely a military style gambit. Go watch the Second Renaissance
Parts 1 and 2 of the Animatrix. These machines are evolved intelligence, and
are prepared to do whatever they feel they must to win.
**********//
**********//
*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of
people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of
your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
//**********
//**********
And now the curveball.
The "by design" part is perplexing. What does it mean? Is Neo a software
program and not human? Why is "by design" even mentioned? The Architect is
implying he made Neo somehow, or is he? ("...that was meant to create a
profound attachment...")
Here is what I consider three possible answers:
1) Neo is really human after all.
The Architect could simply be referring to the notion that "human beings" by
design, how they are "wired up" in their brains if you will, are set up for
self-preservation, genetically. For an innate feeling of attachment to their
species. The Architect has been exploiting this aspect of humans and it
worked with the other five "Ones." Just that the Architect never had a Hax0r
in love?
2) Neo is a software program through and through, built and designed by the
Architect.
I don't buy this one. There's no real drama in this storyline and the
Wachowski's are on record as saying they wanted to make a movie that
borrowed from everything heroic and mythical in epic storytelling. For that
epic to have impact, Neo must fight to save the world and everyone in it.
Not "virtually" fight or be some sort of software program with a Matrix
inside a Matrix, but really fight it out. Revolutions is setting us up for a
massive war movie. For that to have impact at the "epic" level, it must be a
real war for the human race in the story.
3) Neo is like Deckerd from "Blade Runner"
He's something of a humanoid himself, but based on human genes and genetics
("...you remain irrevocably human..."), manipulated and bred to be
controlled by machines. His brain is grown to be wired into the Matrix,
therefore, his brain can be coded. Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and all the
others from the Matrix are a new breed of human, mixing with "real humans"
in Zion once woken up. The machines figured out how to wire up human brains
and "code" them. The cosmic flipside of what the Animatrix tells us, where
man built machines and controlled them. They now control us via coding. The
humans in the Matrix are controllable to a certain degree, save the software
bug that allows some of these bred humanoids to "wake up."
I'm leaning towards the notion that Neo is a new kind of human being evolved
to operate in the Matrix, via theory #3. He's part human and part machine
(an obvious point missed by many of us discussing this issue I think since a
cable can be jacked into his skull), put into the Matrix by the Architect
and the machines. He's been born and bred to live in the simulated world.
He's still human for the most part, but his brain can be coded to live out
the prophecy of the One. Which means...
The human brain can be hacked.
This would help to explain various elements that we so far have little
understanding of in the story. It would explain how Agent Smith was able to
upload himself into Bane, originally a rebel woken up to fight for Zion.
(Smith is just code, and therefore was able to overtake Bane's brain, since
Bane's brain like the other humanoids can be hacked.) It would explain how
Agent Smith can overtake other human avatars, and even how Agents do it in
general. (The Agents rewire the humans in the Matrix and convert them into
Agents to work for the machines purpose. They re-code them, and in doing so,
take over their appearance in the Matrix to boot.) It would also explain how
the Architect got all the pieces in place to get people like Morpheus to
follow the prophecy on pure "faith," as Morpheus was coded to do so, and
probably without realizing it. And why the Architect makes reference to
disseminating the code in Neo.
Humans have a choice in the Matrix, but that choice is all a fiction.
They've been coded to obey, and only think they have choice because they've
been hacked. But the anomaly in the software design builds to a point where
One of the humans breaks away from the simulation and has TRUE choice, TRUE
free will. When this happens, the system must be reset before the true
choice infects the other humans.
Neo as part man and machine could also possibly explain how Neo can stop the
Sentinels. If true, then Neo can possibly interact with the machines outside
the Matrix in the real world. If the ships of the rebels can "patch into the
Matrix" remotely (they do it all wirelessly don't forget), then why couldn't
a cyborg or humanoid? If he can patch remotely, then theoretically he can
hack the machines from outside the Matrix (like he hacks the software inside
when he fight them), and therefore shut them down. But to do so he must be
completely "free", not partially free like maybe Morpheus and Trinity are.
Remember Deckerd from Blade Runner? He was a cyborg himself, even though he
didn't know it. Morpheus, Trinity, Neo... they could all be humanoids,
planted or coded to follow the prophecy to keep the Matrix simulation going,
to act through the software bug and allow just enough of the humans to build
Zion up to a point before squashing them.
But this time, the human side of Neo got the better of him. He decided to
take the other door. He fell in love. He woke beyond waking up, becoming
more human again.
**********//
**********//
*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the
monitors*
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the
cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the
fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both
beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the
source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the
matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal
the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason.
An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth:
she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
//**********
//**********
Something that was not expected by the Architect now occurs. Neo achieved
self-awareness, like the machines before him did in the Animatrix series.
Neo achieved a new level of being. He fell in love. He has every intention
of saving Trinity *AND* the rest of humanity at the same time, the Architect
be damned!
The Architect has been able to control the humans bred in the Matrix to a
certain degree, even creating the simulation to allow for choice that was
controlled ultimately by the machines, but Neo has broken that chain. Since
they were still in the Matrix, a software simulation bound by the program's
core code, by design the Architect had to give Neo a choice.
Why on earth does the Architect give Neo a choice that could lead away from
the planned destruction of Zion for the sixth time? Dramatic license by the
writers maybe? It's only a movie after all.
**********//
**********//
*Neo walks to the door on his left*
The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest
weakness.
Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
The Architect - We won't.
//**********
//**********
The sword has been drawn, a line now drawn in the sand. Basically, the fight
is on.
Neo takes the door to save Trinity not because he wants to just save her
life, an act that could be seen as selfish. I think Neo had every intention
of saving her *and* then putting up the good fight to save Zion. Like all
good heroes, he intends to do both. (If Spiderman can save MJ and the Kids,
I believe Neo can too!) He probably didn't know how he would do that, but
maybe the Sentinels piece at the end of Reloaded, when Neo wakes up from the
coma, will give him the realization that he can hack the machines remotely.
Welcome to the Revolution.
Andrei
mike bjornson
"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
I also think the Architect isn't telling us or more specifically Neo
something.I think he has some secret.Like a magician "forcing" a card ,he
has a subtle controlling nature about him, using misdirection and doubt to
get the out come he wants.
Eduardo Suastegui
try to dissect it for myself.
--
øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪøĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš
Eduardo Suastegui
"Test everything. Hold on to the good."
(remove '701' when replying via e-mail)
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Mark
<snip>
>
> It would seem that since only five other humans have ever made it to this
> room, no one (at least no other human) knows about the Architect and that's
> why no one knows that this series of events has occurred multiple times. The
> other Ones choose to save humanity and rebuild Zion after the machines
> destroy it.
>
> How that information gets lost in history is unknown, but given how much we
> have lost of our own history as time moves forward, it seems plausible that
> those in Zion have not passed the information down correctly from generation
> to generation.
Maybe, IMHO, when the One enters the Source, somehow, the architect
erases important information from the One's brain, thus, he would be
unable to remember anything about the previous Matrix or his
predecessors, like when Cypher made that deal with the agents, he
didn't want to remember anything from his previous life, and the
agents said that it would be done.
<snip>
Shaggydog
another God comment. Some of theology is based on predestination, which
most prodestents argue is the lack of free will, or choice if you will.
Anyways, I think when he talks about the other 5 having been in a similar
situation "by design" he's talking about the path he laid out for them.
That path being, the oracle sending them to the Malvarian (pardon the wrong
name), who reluctently gives up the keymaker, who gives them access to the
source, where the loop may begin again.
I agree with an idea that was posted. Perhaps the archetict is trying to
force a card. Consider that Neo only saw two options. "It's either no one
bothered to tell me, or no one knows" he didn't approach an obvious 3rd
choice. That the archetict is lying or misleading.
Here's the flaw. If this has happened 6 times now, and is likely to proceed
on for the foreseeable future, can this loop possibly continue without the
use of the keymaker? True, Smith ( who is no longer policing the matrix )
killed the keymaker, but the agents made a point of attempting to do so
during that wicked chase scene.
Now, having seen agents die and regenerate, it's entirely possible that the
keymaker could be around for a nother reloading of the matrix.
However, if the agents under the direction of some higher power within the
matrix, had killed the Keymaker, there would be NO way that Neo and Co.,
could've even found the building the source was in, let alone enter.
Anyways, just a couple thoughts there. That keymaker death seemed to tip me
towards thinking that this wasn't a loop at all.
Your thoughts? Do I make some sense?
--
Shaggy
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
specifically to do with Persephone and the Merovingian.
"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect,
> it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
> monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me
> now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being,
> thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the
> varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by
> failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me
> because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the
> parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another,
> an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of
> the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly
> be its mother.
>
> Neo - The Oracle.
>
> //**********
> //**********
>
> I'm still shocked by the number of people who take this hook, line and
> sinker. The Architect is not talking about the Oracle, IMHO. The Oracle
> seems to be on a plane almost equivalent to the Architect.
>
> The Architect's "Please" response is said with a sense of belittlement. I
> don't think we can conclude the Architect is referring to the Oracle. I
> think we should conclude that the Architect is referring to Persephone.
> There are many stories around Persephone playing a much larger role in
> Revolutions than in Reloaded. And they gave her own poster for crying out
> loud!
>
I'm no scholar of mythology, but a study of the mythos of Persephone makes
for interesting reading. Persephone was the daughter of Demeter, goddess
of agriculture and the afterlife, and was raped by Zeus, who then gave her
to Hades, god of the underworld, as his wife. Persephone had offspring by
both Zeus and Hades; her children by Zeus were Zagreos, an early form of
Dionysus, and Melinoe, a terrifying demon. Her children by Hades were the
Erinyes, or Euminedes, or the Furies, three goddesses who avenged wrongs
and pursued their victims relentlessly.
It may be a stretch, but suppose that the Architect=Zeus and the
Merovingian=Hades. If the Architect and Persephone gave birth to the
Matrix, then the Matrix could be seen as a sort of Dionysian construct: its
inhabitants know pleasure (or at least as much as the human mind can accept
as reality) and periodically the whole thing is destroyed only to be
recreated. Once Persephone completed the work that made the Matrix 99.9%
reliable, the Architect gave her to the Merovingian, god of the Matrix
underworld -- its security elements, perhaps, and the source of the Agents?
-- as a reward for something he did. (In the myth, Demeter rescues
Persephone from the underworld, but because Persephone has eaten the food
of Hades, she must spend some time with her husband each year.)
I think the Furies, offspring of Persephone and Hades (or at least
controlled by them), are the Agents. There always seem to be three of
them. Could Persephone and the Merovingian be responsible for their
coding?
So who's Agent Smith? Melinoe, perhaps?
Steve Tilson
--
"It's like I tell the kids: Quitters never win, and don't trust whitey."
- Family Guy
Eduardo Suastegui
news:1053453137.449687@arakis...
Consider this also: it may not seem like a loop, because this time around
some unique events are taking place. For instance,
1) Agent Smith is a rogue and wants himself to get to the source
(apparently).
2) Neo defeats the Architect's prediction that Trinity will die, no matter
which door Neo chooses, demonstrating that:
a) The Architect is *not* omniscient or omnipotent.
b) Neo is much improved over his predecessors.
In other words, this time around may be the last iteration, either to
destroy the Matrix and free all humans for good, or to damage the Matrix and
destroy all humans for good.
Justin Bacon
>2) There was a war between men and machines, as outlined in the Second
>Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 of the Animatrix.
That story, you'll note, is explicitly framed as a historical record of Zion.
It has no objective reality.
>Also, Tank in the first movie talks about being pure, born and raised
>in the real world. We see all sorts of humans without the holes and machine
>connectors.
Irrelevant. There are plenty of people walking around the Matrix without holes
and machine connectors, that doesn't mean the Matrix isn't a computer
simulation.
>3) The Oracle appears to be on the good side. Maybe the Oracle is on the
>Architect's side, but her comments give no indication that she is operating
>for the bad side.
You're assuming that the Oracle didn't lie through omission and that the
Architect did. Certainly not a a bad way to go, but it is notable that that
Oracle went out of her way to let Neo that there was a good chance she was
working for the other side. And the comments of the Merovingian suggest that
Neo doesn't know the real reason behind his search for the Door of Light. That
doesn't make any sense if what the Oracle told him were true.
>Two
>women for every man. If it is then true that the One joins the newly freed
>humans from the Matrix, why doesn't the One tell the real story so it can be
>passed down?
It's more than possible that he comes out of his interface with the Source with
his brain hacked.
>The "by design" part is perplexing. What does it mean? Is Neo a software
>program and not human? Why is "by design" even mentioned? The Architect is
>implying he made Neo somehow, or is he? ("...that was meant to create a
>profound attachment...")
You overlook the obvious: The Architect states that he has designed the system
so that the flaws become focused, rather than spreading. "By design" simply
refers to the channels the Architect has been forced to leave open for the
development of the One.
>Which means...
>
>The human brain can be hacked.
This doesn't take any great leap. It's *stated* in the first film.
>Why on earth does the Architect give Neo a choice that could lead away from
>the planned destruction of Zion for the sixth time?
The existence of the choice is not the puzzling part. (Neo is still in the
Matrix, after all, and could probably force his escape if he had to. So you
might as well make the choice clear.) The puzzling part is that the Architect
goes out of his way to push Neo back out into the Matrix by showing him that
Trinity is in danger.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
axis
> another God comment. Some of theology is based on predestination, which
> most prodestents argue is the lack of free will, or choice if you will.
> Anyways, I think when he talks about the other 5 having been in a similar
> situation "by design" he's talking about the path he laid out for them.
> That path being, the oracle sending them to the Malvarian (pardon the
wrong
> name), who reluctently gives up the keymaker, who gives them access to the
> source, where the loop may begin again.
>
> I agree with an idea that was posted. Perhaps the archetict is trying to
> force a card. Consider that Neo only saw two options. "It's either no
one
> bothered to tell me, or no one knows" he didn't approach an obvious 3rd
> choice. That the archetict is lying or misleading.
>
> Here's the flaw. If this has happened 6 times now, and is likely to
proceed
> on for the foreseeable future, can this loop possibly continue without the
> use of the keymaker? True, Smith ( who is no longer policing the matrix )
> killed the keymaker, but the agents made a point of attempting to do so
> during that wicked chase scene.
Well, either the agents weren't really going to kill the key maker (and it
was all a show),
or if the agents fully intended on taking out the key maker, then this could
be construed as
another test to make sure Neo is the one.
> Now, having seen agents die and regenerate, it's entirely possible that
the
> keymaker could be around for a nother reloading of the matrix.
> However, if the agents under the direction of some higher power within the
> matrix, had killed the Keymaker, there would be NO way that Neo and Co.,
> could've even found the building the source was in, let alone enter.
It possible that the keymaker re-generates every time the matrix is
rebooted... Thinking about it a bit more, where does the Merovingian stand
in all this? Apparently he's been around since the early matrices, so
presumably this is the 6th time he's had to give up the key maker...
BrianZ
with others but this dissection is fun never the less. I understand that
the machines must code in "choice" for humans to make the simulation (The
Matrix) appear REAL, and I also understand the Architect's point about how
that eventually leads to some individuals pushing the boundaries and seeing
past the simulation (Neo). However, can anyone explain to me why the
machines simply don't reset the simulation to a point in the Old West or
further back so that no one would have access to computers thereby
preventing the very formation of The One? Am I missing a peice of the
puzzle here?
The way I understand the process is this:
1. Matrix and the machines take over
2. The original One comes along and sets some minds free putting the wheel
in motion
3. The Oracle consults the One leading him (or her) to the source where the
"choice" is made
4. The One chooses to start the entire process over after deciding not to
end the entire human race
5. Neo throws a wrench into the plan by going the other way for LOVE
The machines have to include "choice" and free will in the simulation for
humans to buy into it but why do they have to set it in todays world?
I guess so there could be a kick ass movie right? :-)
Just wondering if anyone had a better reason
Bri
"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Justin Bacon
>I'm no scholar of mythology, but a study of the mythos of Persephone makes
>for interesting reading. Persephone was the daughter of Demeter, goddess
>of agriculture and the afterlife, and was raped by Zeus, who then gave her
>to Hades, god of the underworld, as his wife.
Given the importance of food in the Matrix mythos, I'd be taking a closer look
at the "Persephone was kidnapped by Hades and then tricked into eating three
pomegranate seeds, forcing her to return to Hades' side once each year".
>Once Persephone completed the work that made the Matrix 99.9%
>reliable, the Architect gave her to the Merovingian, god of the Matrix
>underworld -- its security elements, perhaps, and the source of the Agents?
Except this contradicts what we are told of the Merovingian and his servants
being rogue programs. And seems contra-indicated by the Merovingian speaking of
"surviving" the previous anomalies. Now, sure, *everything* we were told in the
second film could be a lie. But at that point we're just spinning ideas out of
nothing.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Consider this also: it may not seem like a loop, because this time around
>some unique events are taking place. For instance,
>
>1) Agent Smith is a rogue and wants himself to get to the source
>(apparently).
Agent Smith acually says to himself:
"It's happening again, exactly like last time."
"Well, not *exactly*."
Near the beginning of the film.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Thinking about it a bit more, where does the Merovingian stand
>in all this? Apparently he's been around since the early matrices, so
>presumably this is the 6th time he's had to give up the key maker...
It's also possible that this is the first time he's kidnapped the Key Maker,
explicitly in an attempt to prevent the Matrix from being rebooted.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Larry Dennis
machines to improve the success rate of 99.9%. The more they improve it, the
less minds will fall into the .1% anomaly, and the less frequent the "trash
folder" (i.e. Zion) will need to be purged.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
twelve dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper.
-- Rod Serling
Eduardo Suastegui
news:jiwya.920880$F1.113680@sccrnsc04...
> The machines have to include "choice" and free will in the simulation for
> humans to buy into it but why do they have to set it in todays world?
So you can do product placement, e.g., Cadillacs in the chase scene.
Kevin Casto
> Consider this also: it may not seem like a loop, because this time around
> some unique events are taking place. For instance,
>
> 1) Agent Smith is a rogue and wants himself to get to the source
> (apparently).
>
> 2) Neo defeats the Architect's prediction that Trinity will die, no matter
> which door Neo chooses, demonstrating that:
> a) The Architect is *not* omniscient or omnipotent.
> b) Neo is much improved over his predecessors.
Actually, Neo doesn't defeat the Architect's prediction. Trinity does
die just as The Architect said would happen. There was nothing Neo
could do to stop it, just as The Architect said would happen.
However, Neo was able to bring Trinity back to life. Now does this
mean The Architect didn't know that would happen? No. It may be a
simple omission of the entire truth in an attempt to manipulate Neo.
It's much like the first film and the conversation between The Oracle
and Neo. She tells Neo that either he or Morpheus will die. He will
have to decide who it will be. This is exactly what happens.
By choosing the course of actions that Neo does, he guarantees that
Morpheus would survive, but he dies at the hands of Agent Smith. But
Neo returns from the dead as The One. This is also something that The
Oracle hinted at in the following conversation:
The Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're
waiting for something.
Neo: What?
The Oracle: Your next life, maybe. Who knows? That's the way these
things go.
This is literally what Neo was waiting for to become The One, his next
life. Because it it only after returning from death is Neo truly The
One.
I tend to take what these programs say literally. They are after all,
programs. :) They are not telling lies, but that doens't mean that
we're getting the entire truth. Much like in Star Wars, the truth is
often from a certain point of view.
Jordan Lund
> How that information gets lost in history is unknown, but given how much we
> have lost of our own history as time moves forward, it seems plausible that
> those in Zion have not passed the information down correctly from generation
> to generation.
I'd say that in Reloaded we see two other former ones. The Merovingian
I suspect was one of the first ones, if not the first one and
Persephone was his corresponding Trinity ("He was like you once...")
He says "I survived your predecessors..." but he doesn't specify how
many he survived. Remember, the floor where we meet him is 101. The
same as Neo's apartment in the first flick. Anyone else find it ironic
that 101 in binary is 5? Nah, couldn't be...
I suspect Neo's immediate predecessor is the Chairman of the council.
That's why they have a nice long talk about the symbiotic relationship
between humans and machines. He's seeing in Neo the choice he failed
to make and is trying to guide Neo to make the correct choice. People
need machines and the machines need people. If you remove either side
from the equation the whole will collapse.
> It seems that the Architect is making the claim that he needs Neo in order
> to reload the simulation somehow. But he only needs Neo temporarily. I just
> kind of assume that the things Neo has learned on his path to
> "enlightenment" are to be re-used by the Architect somehow for the next
> cycle of the simulation. So the Architect can learn more and more and reach
> a point where the simulation achieves "mathematical perfection" at some
> point.
I see it as a refinement process. The Architect is trying to remove
the bug that created Neo, as Neo goes about his business the events he
involves himself in imprint on him like a kind of computer code. By
extracting that code the Architect can refine the system and make it
more manageable. Eventually the bug will be eliminated and "The One"
will cease reincarnating.
> One question to be asked here: Since the number the Architect gives Neo is
> 23, (and note these are people *FROM* the Matrix, people who have no idea
> what is going on in the real world), we can assume Neo would be 24. Two
> women for every man. If it is then true that the One joins the newly freed
> humans from the Matrix, why doesn't the One tell the real story so it can be
> passed down? I can only guess history gets jumbled over time.
My guess is that we're only getting half the picture, literally
because we haven't seen Revolutions and figuratively because 23 has
meaning. Each parent contributes 23 chromosomes to their child for a
total of 46. There has to be something missing that we haven't seen
yet. The other half, the yin to this yang.
> I'm leaning towards the notion that Neo is a new kind of human being evolved
> to operate in the Matrix, via theory #3. He's part human and part machine
> (an obvious point missed by many of us discussing this issue I think since a
> cable can be jacked into his skull), put into the Matrix by the Architect
> and the machines. He's been born and bred to live in the simulated world.
> He's still human for the most part, but his brain can be coded to live out
> the prophecy of the One. Which means...
There's a 4th possibility... That they are all programs. Every last
one of them. Every man, woman and child in the Matrix and in Zion.
That the entire thing is one big computer simulation a la Tron. Why?
Dunno. We need to see the 3rd movie. Think back to what the Oracle
says... Everything is controlled by programs. Even the people? Sure,
why not? That cake program seemed to do wonders for the Merovingian.
> Remember Deckerd from Blade Runner? He was a cyborg himself, even though he
> didn't know it.
That's a point where I disagree, but I'm not going to go into it...
Other than why create an imperfect replicant, allow it to think it's
been a retired human being and bring it back to fight later generation
replicants designed to be superior in every way shape and form? It
simply doesn't make any sense. I know Ridley Scott thinks Deckard is a
replicant, but it's a case of the director NOT knowing everything...
> Neo takes the door to save Trinity not because he wants to just save her
> life, an act that could be seen as selfish. I think Neo had every intention
> of saving her *and* then putting up the good fight to save Zion.
The line from the Architect at this point leads me to think that this
is the expected outcome. Neo has no other choice but to go back and
try to save Trinity. But why assume the Architect is presenting a true
choice? Why assume he's telling the truth at all? Remember, at the
beginning of the conversation he implies that choice is an illusion.
There is no choice, it's just a further level of subjugation. So why
is this choice any different?
- Jordan
me
> So you can do product placement, e.g., Cadillacs in the chase scene.
Heh heh heh - there's that pesky "real world" spoiling our fantasy again.
LOL
-me
--
You have the right to remain stupid.
Everything you say can and will be ignored.
John
Trinity *did* die, she just got brought back to life. Didn't she?
Gregory D. George
> It may be a stretch, but suppose that the Architect=Zeus and the
> Merovingian=Hades. If the Architect and Persephone gave birth to the
> Matrix, then the Matrix could be seen as a sort of Dionysian construct:
> Once Persephone completed the work that made the Matrix 99.9%
> reliable, the Architect gave her to the Merovingian, god of the Matrix
> underworld -- its security elements, perhaps, and the source of the Agents?
Good point... Considering that Merovingian controls the demon-like
Twins, you might have something there.
--
Gregory D. George
Only email me at http://www.ataritimes.com/email
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Jack9
> because we haven't seen Revolutions and figuratively because 23 has
> meaning. Each parent contributes 23 chromosomes to their child for a
> total of 46. There has to be something missing that we haven't seen
> yet. The other half, the yin to this yang.
I believe the exponential growth of a population of 24 is supposed to
work out to roughly 1/4 million over some number of years is more
relevant, but the chromosome idea is original as well.
> The line from the Architect at this point leads me to think that this
> is the expected outcome. Neo has no other choice but to go back and
> try to save Trinity. But why assume the Architect is presenting a true
> choice? Why assume he's telling the truth at all? Remember, at the
> beginning of the conversation he implies that choice is an illusion.
> There is no choice, it's just a further level of subjugation. So why
> is this choice any different?
The architect said she would die either way. She did die. She came
back too.
Eric Voisard
news: 6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Neo - The Oracle.
>
> //**********
> //**********
>
> I'm still shocked by the number of people who take this hook, line and
> sinker. The Architect is not talking about the Oracle, IMHO. The Oracle
> seems to be on a plane almost equivalent to the Architect.
>
> The Architect's "Please" response is said with a sense of belittlement. I
> don't think we can conclude the Architect is referring to the Oracle. I
> think we should conclude that the Architect is referring to Persephone.
> There are many stories around Persephone playing a much larger role in
> Revolutions than in Reloaded. And they gave her own poster for crying out
> loud!
>
> Persephone's motives, the need for the kiss for example, is something that
> fits better with a machine designed to "investigate the human condition."
> How Persephone plays out in Revolutions remains to be seen. Her kiss may
> have been some transfer of knowledge that will be used against Neo in
> Revolutions. Who knows...
Persephone's unclear role and this kiss raise a lot of questions to me.
As Neo's love for Trinity seems of importance for the One's behaviour in the
cycle and his possible choices, this request for a kiss looks like a
pass/fail test against this love. But what would she have concluded if Neo
had refused, or if he was unable to give her a somewhat sensual kiss.
Anyway, the relation between her and the Merovingian looks like an old
couple without lots of mutual esteem. Although she was somewhat standing in
the Merovingian's shadow at the beginning, Persephone didn't look that
impressed by him and eventually took decisions that countered his will and
caused him prejudice, however she didn't look effraid at all by his possible
retaliation. And when she freed the Keymaker, the Merovingian looked quite
surprised and helpless.
She looks to be at least as powerful as the Merovingian, and she seems on
the "goods" side.
... but this kiss....
Well, I'm perplex and I would like to know the others thoughts about
Persephone and the Merovingian.
Yours, Eric
huwen
fellow programs to function properly in their own accord..
Did anyone notice that Mr Smith copies himself onto the "Guy" in the
beginning.. and the same "Guy" is the person responsible for giving out their
direction in the real world. If Mr Smith has found a backdoor into "reality"
then for mr smith to exist in reality the reality has to be a program itself!
v6.0
I think the "by design" statement was also suggested by The Oracle
when she spoke with Neo. She said something along the lines of "we
have already made the choices we must live up to" and Neo denies this
by saying "no" meaning Trinity gets shot. The Architect says "by
design" referring to this statement. Also, we must remember that in
the first matrix Morpheus tells Neo that they do not wake up minds
that have been in the matrix for so long and that the mind may have
trouble letting go. ON his way to the oracle NEO says that some store
makes good noodles therefore showing his attachment. As you stated,
because Agent Smith can upload to a brain, Neo can do the same. And
that idea is further strengthened by Smith telling Neo that he has
become a part of him. I think the movie is trying to strengthen the
idea of love which the machines are incapable of and that is their
ultimate flaw. Because eveven Persephone could only get that from NEO.
Neo made a CHOICE to kiss her, and the sounds of the matrix signify
that it was perceived as real.
peace.
"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
Andrei Herasimchuk
news:20030520150250...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> >2) There was a war between men and machines, as outlined in the Second
> >Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 of the Animatrix.
>
> That story, you'll note, is explicitly framed as a historical record of
Zion.
> It has no objective reality.
I did notice that. Wasn't sure how to interpret it.
> >Also, Tank in the first movie talks about being pure, born and raised
> >in the real world. We see all sorts of humans without the holes and
machine
> >connectors.
>
> Irrelevant. There are plenty of people walking around the Matrix without
holes
> and machine connectors, that doesn't mean the Matrix isn't a computer
> simulation.
True. But I also don't feel we've been given anything concrete to go down
that path.
In the first movie, stuff happened to indicate the Matrix wasn't real. Neo's
mouth melding shut, the way Trinity kicks the cops butts, her superwoamn
jumps and flying through the window. The steel bug turning into a real bug
and back, etc.
So far, in the real world, we've been given no clues to give us any
indication the real world is yet another matrix. I was pointing out the real
humans seem to be real humans, that's all. I don't think we should be led to
believe they are some simualtion within a simulation.
> >3) The Oracle appears to be on the good side. Maybe the Oracle is on the
> >Architect's side, but her comments give no indication that she is
operating
> >for the bad side.
>
> You're assuming that the Oracle didn't lie through omission and that the
> Architect did. Certainly not a a bad way to go, but it is notable that
that
> Oracle went out of her way to let Neo that there was a good chance she was
> working for the other side. And the comments of the Merovingian suggest
that
> Neo doesn't know the real reason behind his search for the Door of Light.
That
> doesn't make any sense if what the Oracle told him were true.
"Lie through omission?" You mean not tell the whole story? I personaly don't
consider that lying, but that's a different point.
I don't think either the Architect or the Oracle is lying at all quite
frankly. In their own ways, I think they are both being honest brokers. The
Architect seems to feel it is above humanity, and therefore telling Neo the
truth is something that doesn't bother him as the Architect beleives Neo
wouldn't get it anyway. The Oracle? So far, it seems she doesn want to help,
and is doing so in her own way.
What we need I think is a transcript of the Oracles' conversation to go
alongside the Architect's scene. That might help.
> >Two
> >women for every man. If it is then true that the One joins the newly
freed
> >humans from the Matrix, why doesn't the One tell the real story so it can
be
> >passed down?
>
> It's more than possible that he comes out of his interface with the Source
with
> his brain hacked.
True.
> >The "by design" part is perplexing. What does it mean? Is Neo a software
> >program and not human? Why is "by design" even mentioned? The Architect
is
> >implying he made Neo somehow, or is he? ("...that was meant to create a
> >profound attachment...")
>
> You overlook the obvious: The Architect states that he has designed the
system
> so that the flaws become focused, rather than spreading. "By design"
simply
> refers to the channels the Architect has been forced to leave open for the
> development of the One.
Yes. I hadn't thought about this. That is a reasonable way to interpret that
phrase.
> >The human brain can be hacked.
>
> This doesn't take any great leap. It's *stated* in the first film.
Yes, it is, but the implications of this is what I think is important. I
think when most people see the movie, they are under the assumption that
people are being tricked, like one is tricked in using a VR simulation.
People live in the Matrix because their brains are being *presented* a
reality that is plausible. Further, they have free will, so there's no
reason to question what is going on, right?
But what is going on in the Matrix is a bit more nefarious. The notion of
the human brain being hacked means that the machines can code people to
think they have choice when they don't, and make people do things that
inside the brain of the person, appears as free will. But it is in fact not.
They've been hacked. As Morpheus says, the Matrix is a system of control.
The machines have not only tricked humanity into living in the simulation by
coding in free will, but they also then hacked their brains to keep things
in order. They have programmed people to a large extent to operate out coded
lives in the simulation as well. Choice is coded into the system to make it
plausible, but people are then hacked to keep them discovering the truth.
This would help explain how the Oracle knows what is going to happen, how
Agent Smith can upload himself into Bane and re-program Bane, and why
Morpheus seems a bit blinded by faith for someone who should know better.
It is stated in the first film, but I don't see anyone taking that thought
one level deeper. This notion of free will but machines still have control
over people by hacking them.
> >Why on earth does the Architect give Neo a choice that could lead away
from
> >the planned destruction of Zion for the sixth time?
>
> The existence of the choice is not the puzzling part. (Neo is still in the
> Matrix, after all, and could probably force his escape if he had to. So
you
> might as well make the choice clear.) The puzzling part is that the
Architect
> goes out of his way to push Neo back out into the Matrix by showing him
that
> Trinity is in danger.
Yeah... or the Architect underestimated that Neo had broken the bounds of
his coding by falling in love with a specific woman. Or maybe it's just
dramatic license to keep the story moving along.
Andrei
Ranxerox
First off this is a great analysis, as many of them have been. I have
come to one conclusion. The universe rests on the back of a trutle,
that rests on a turtles. It's tutrltes all the way down.
That is how Hawking summarizes reality, and I buy it (anyone with even
an amatuer interest in physics get is, there is no there, it is all
infinitessimal, and it never ends...Men In Black I for newbies....the
universe is in the belt of Orion).
As a QA Engineer I see Neo as a unit test, constantly revised in order
to revela the imperfections of the Matrix to ultimately re-program the
Matrix, modify it, to be perfect. In order to be perfect it must also
have the right amount of chaos and inconsistency and illogic, something
the machines don't understand. Ai's ultimately are programmed by
humans, and we made then to be very rigid. That is the dilemma they are
trying to overcome. As fluid as we made them, they are still in the
box, and are far less than humans in flexibility of purpose. Which is
why they have a difficult trime controlling humans ultimately.
This is personified in Persephone and the Oracle. Both of whom are
sentient programs with basically the same purpose; umnderstanding what
mnakes humans tick. That is why she kissed Neo, to understand the drive
the force, the illogical love that is a motivator for all human actions.
Humans are more, or at least we perceive ourselves to be, than existing
to purpose. That is what the Keymaker seess himself to be, and what the
Oracle echoed to Neo. In essence, she really doesn't understand human
behavior. She understands Neo's programming but does not understand the
glitches that get him to various points the matrix. She knows he will
get there, but she is clueless as to how. That is key.
That is why he is an anomaly ( I love it when they call him that), yes
they can make a prediction about his actions, but it is THEY who do not
know the how he gets to any point. And they probe Neo and prod him into
revealing how he knows, so that they can adjust the programming
accordingly. Genius. This is very slick and sublime SF people.
Reminds me of Gibson. Just enough to reveal the joke and enough to keep
you interested. Nice.
That is really it isn't it, what is Neo, what is his real purpose? To
serve the matrix in the effort to debug the program, or to really free
humanity, if there really is one. Is this just a fucking turtle. I
think so, but this one is indeed a machine, and it has an end.
I am also not lost on the number 6 (time to reach here), which the
Architect revealed. Remember The Prisoner? Are you a number or are you
a free man? These guys are very slick and well read.
Neo is a very special program. He can really change the rules of the
Matrix. We also know the Archie is WRONG. He predicted Trinity's death
and that hope was useless? Prodding the program again? Well it worked,
and your summation was incorrect. Neo changed the program, yet again.
The Archie is doomed, and Neo will become the Archie and the machines
will persih. This is the biggest rogue program the Matrix created, and
he is out of control and gaining more control every episode.
Oh not possible? I use to work in this place the specailized in netowrk
devices. We had these cool programs that could essentially fuck up your
entire net (I cannot go into much detail, sorry). We revised, and
revised this program to do more and more, and it became more dangerous
at every revision. It had viral characteristics, and we had lack of
process to track the changes. The Matrix is not without it's own flaws.
That Morpheus doesn't have a memory of the war is indicative of an
issue. Humans write every fucking thing down, or at least talk about
it. Seven centuries and we are still talking about crap that happened
some time ago (Balkans, Northern Ireland anyone?). So I am suspicious
that Morphues and Zion are nothing more than programmatic distractions.
Like the Oracle. A motivator used to reveal characteristics of humanity.
After all, why have choice at all if you already know the outcome? Well
that is becasue you do not know the outcome.
This was fun,
Ranx
xverpldx
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Things we can assume to a certain degree up to the point of the Architect's
>interaction with Neo:
>2) There was a war between men and machines, as outlined in the Second
>Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 of the Animatrix. We have to believe real humans
... Which all exists only as records kept in Zion, according to
the intro for the "Second Renaissance". Since Zion (presumably) doesn't
have public records of previous Zions, I'm going to hold mild skepticism
about just how accurate their records are.
>Now... onto the scene...
>
>Neo - You haven't answered my question.
>
>The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
>
>*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What
>others? How many? Answer me!'*
>
>//**********
>
>Great line. The Architect is impressed that Neo is a bit smarter and faster
>than the others that have come before him. Evolution in action maybe? An
Interesting contrast with the Oracle in the first movie: "Not too
bright, though."
>This also gives us a clue that the Architect, while thinking of himself as a
>higher being than man, may not be so high and mighty. He obviously wasn't
>aware that Neo could come up with that answer so fast, right? The Architect
Mmm. It might be just condescension again: "Oh, so you're a shade
brighter than the others."
>The Architect is simply referring to the number of other Ones that appeared
>before him. Neo is the sixth.
>
>Note that there is nothing here to assume that the other Ones before Neo
>were simply other versions of Neo. That is a possibility, but nothing done
>up to now should lead us to that conclusion. I think we should expect that
>Neo is himself, and is just the sixth human to make it to the Source.
Yes! Thank you. I totally agree here that there's no reason to
assume the previous Ones (heh) were literally Neo.
>Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
>one knows.
Cutting in a moment: if Neo really is so bright, why didn't he
think back on the Merovingian's comment? Unless he did remember and chose
to keep that from the Architect.
>Neo - The Oracle.
>
>I'm still shocked by the number of people who take this hook, line and
>sinker. The Architect is not talking about the Oracle, IMHO. The Oracle
Agreed. The "Please" is obviously condescending, and more likely
to be "please, what a stupid idea" than "please, don't insult me by
stating the obvious."
>The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
>whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
I've only seen the movie the once, but I'd *swear* he said "99%",
not "99.9%". Zion's size is still too small to be 1% of the human
population, but perhaps the rest go insane, are unable to break free or
make contact with freed humans, etc.
>**********//
>
>Neo - This is about Zion.
>
>The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its
>every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
>
>//**********
>
>After enough time has passed, the machines must obliterate Zion and the
>people living there to make sure the people don't free all the human slaves
>in the Matrix.
>
>Seems pretty straight forward, doesn't it?
Almost. How do those first freed humans ever extricate themselves
from the refuse pool without help from the outside? How do they learn how
to operate the hoverships and make (an abandoned?) Zion work?
I see a couple of possibilities here: Zion is itself a computer
fantasy simulation (helps explain how the US built a nifty hovership like
the Nebuchadnezzar in 2069) or Zion was built and/or maintained by the
machines, possibly in android/replicant form in order to act as a seed
that could help humans unable to accept the Matrix.
>Humans have a choice in the Matrix, but that choice is all a fiction.
>They've been coded to obey, and only think they have choice because they've
>been hacked.
Foreshadowed by the Oracle's little vase trick in the first movie?
It's nice how they worked in a couple of free will/fate issues into the
first movie so they'd resonate in the second.
--
Homer: I know how you feel, Bart. When I was your age, I wanted an
electric football game more than anything in the world. And my
parents bought it for me, and it was the happiest day of my life.
[pause] Well, good night. [walks out]
Eric Voisard
> to revela the imperfections of the Matrix to ultimately re-program the
> Matrix, modify it, to be perfect. In order to be perfect it must also
> have the right amount of chaos and inconsistency and illogic, something
> the machines don't understand. Ai's ultimately are programmed by
> humans, and we made then to be very rigid. That is the dilemma they are
> trying to overcome. As fluid as we made them, they are still in the
> box, and are far less than humans in flexibility of purpose. Which is
> why they have a difficult trime controlling humans ultimately.
I like this idea of Neo being some debug unit and the Architect using him to
trace and fix the ultimate matrix flaws. Furthermore it doesn't imply Neo
being just another bit of code but he should have an human essence in order
to be useful and efficient (real time and real conditions test of the
Matrix). They needed him to be unpredictable, but to a point.
As v6.0 said, the ultimate flaw of the machines should be love, and Neo is
the guinea pig with which Persephone (seemingly) played during her human
sentiments understanding task. She looks to have some real interest in Neo,
like if she knows him very well and is somewhat fond of him. It's possible
that by brodering with him during the other cycles, she tasted humanity and
developed some embryo of human love. That's perhaps the reason she isn't
with the Architect anymore. Maybe was she banned and promised to the garbage
collector as defectuous, but choose to hide with the Merovingian.
This kiss was then maybe something she needed for herself. And she took
risks for Neo.
Thanks to Andrei for his basic analysis material.
Eric
Eric Voisard
> indication the real world is yet another matrix. I was pointing out the
real
> humans seem to be real humans, that's all. I don't think we should be led
to
> believe they are some simualtion within a simulation.
Except maybe that for simple humans, like Neo and Trinity are outside of the
Matrix, it's not that easy to resurrect, at least we accept some miracles.
Also I don't know how possible it is, my massaging Trinity avatar's heart,
to massage and restart is heart in real life.
And that I for one don't like Zion's rebels a la Star Wars.
Eric
Justin Bacon
>The real world has to be a program on its own.. to allow the architect and
>the fellow programs to function properly in their own accord..
I have no idea what that sentence means.
>Did anyone notice that Mr Smith copies himself onto the "Guy" in the
>beginning.. and the same "Guy" is the person responsible for giving out their
>direction in the real world. If Mr Smith has found a backdoor into "reality"
>then for mr smith to exist in reality the reality has to be a program itself!
That doesn't follow logically. Just because Smith has found a way to upload
himself into a human brain, it doesn't follow that the real world is a program.
It would, in fact, be much easier to use this piece of information to argue
that the real world is *not* another Matrix. After all, when Agent Smith
infects someone the person takes on Agent Smith's appearance in the programmed
reality of the Matrix. Bane was infected by Agent Smith and looks like Agent
Smith in the Matrix, but continues to look like Bane in the real world.
But, obviously, that isn't conclusive, either.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Stephen Souter
In article <6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>, "Andrei
Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
<snip>
> 2) There was a war between men and machines, as outlined in the Second
> Renaissance Parts 1 & 2 of the Animatrix. We have to believe real humans
> exist. Also, Tank in the first movie talks about being pure, born and raised
> in the real world. We see all sorts of humans without the holes and machine
> connectors. For the story to have any meaning, I think the story has to
> ultimately be about real people to a certain degree. I don't buy the Matrix
> within a Matrix piece based on what has been told so far across the
> storyline.
I don't buy the matrix-within-a-matrix thing either.
But that said there is one slender bit of evidence in its favour. The real
world (as opposed to the simulated one) shown in the films could not
possibly exist as depicted. If the ENTIRE sky all over the world had been
blackened then this would put a stop to photosynthesis, both by plants &
by microbes. Quite apart from anything else, if that happened then
eventually the atmosphere would become sufficiently depleted of oxygen
that no human being would be able to breathe it as Neo & co are shown
doing (without respirators) near the end of M2. At least outside the
(presumably) hermetically sealed environment of Zion.
You don't necessarily have to imagine total depletion either. The reason
most people have trouble breathing at high altitudes is because the
partial pressure of oxygen at such heights is too low.
--
Stephen Souter
s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au
http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/
Justin Bacon
>Actually, Neo doesn't defeat the Architect's prediction. Trinity does
>die just as The Architect said would happen. There was nothing Neo
>could do to stop it, just as The Architect said would happen.
What the Architect actually says is:
"...she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it."
Personally, this doesn't strike me as an Oracular wink of the eye. Particularly
given the fact that the Architect leads into it by claiming that any thoughts
of saving Trinity are illogical and follows it up by mocking Neo's hope that he
can do something.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>I'd say that in Reloaded we see two other former ones. The Merovingian
>I suspect was one of the first ones, if not the first one and
>Persephone was his corresponding Trinity
Except:
(a) He's a program.
(b) There was no "corresponding Trinity" for the previous Ones.
Unless the Architect was lying.
>He says "I survived your predecessors..." but he doesn't specify how
>many he survived. Remember, the floor where we meet him is 101. The
>same as Neo's apartment in the first flick. Anyone else find it ironic
>that 101 in binary is 5? Nah, couldn't be...
Yeah. I liked that. But I think it's a reference to the 5th Matrix. If he was
the 5th One, then he wouldn't have survived any of Neo's predecessors -- he'd
be Neo's immediate predecessor.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Eduardo Suastegui
news:1f602d3a.03052...@posting.google.com...
Very interesting! This opens up some possibilities. For instance, if the
Architect is dealing in partial truths, what else didn't he tell Neo?
Perhaps that it is possible for the One to take over the entire Matrix
without destroying it (e.g., a third choice implicit in the choice Neo took
when he wen't through the detroy-the-human-race door)?
mmartine
> bright, though."
>
Both the Oracle and Persephone are (obviously) women. You might think
that doesn't matter if they're programs, but let's say that's how
they're programmed. The Oracle could tell Neo had no idea Trinity
loved him back in the 1st movie.
Now, Persephone:
Her kiss with Neo might be the equivalent of Seraph's fight with Neo:
"To fight someone is to know them" (something like that). Persephone
is a lover, not a fighter (I know, I know...), so she judges Neo by
his kiss of true love. I think that she does transfer something to him
during that kiss, and I think the setup for that is the Morovignian's
programmed piece of orgasmic cake. How can anyone think that a kiss is
just a kiss in the Matrix after that? And what did she transfer to
Neo? How about squid-stopping scene at the end? How Neo did that seems
to be the biggest question on everyone's mind.
When the Persephone of myth traveled back to the underworld every year
to be with Hades, it became winter in the world of the living.
Persephone's annual journey symbolizes the cycle of
birth/death/rebirth: the Matrix Reloaded. The Morovignian surrounds
himself with underworld creatures: the twins are ghosts or vampires,
and his thugs are werewolves: in the Matrix, they can only be killed
by silver bullets, which Persephone conveniently has loaded into her
handgun.
It might be interesting to draw other parallels between myth and
Matrix: since mythic Persephone was raped and bore children by Zeus
and Hades, and the Architect is Zeus-like in function and appearance,
perhaps we can ask against who is Matrix Persephone exacting her
revenge, the Architect or the Morovignian? Or both?
> >The Architect is simply referring to the number of other Ones that appeared
> >before him. Neo is the sixth.
> >
> >Note that there is nothing here to assume that the other Ones before Neo
> >were simply other versions of Neo. That is a possibility, but nothing done
> >up to now should lead us to that conclusion. I think we should expect that
> >Neo is himself, and is just the sixth human to make it to the Source.
The screens display what the Architect wants them to. Like any good
algorithm, he's analyzing possibilities and playing them out in front
Neo on the the screens. The goofiness and immaturity of many of those
possible responses shows the Architect's condescending attitude.
The fact that the Morovignian and Oracle still exist might show that
in fact, none of this has happened before and the Architect is lying.
There would be no reason to reinstate the Morovignian (though the idea
that he is a former "One" is interesting). There would be no reason
for older Matrix entities to be allowed to roam about. Even if this is
the 6th One, I still think that Smith makes this time around unique
and perhaps the final time. There's no accounting the chaos he's
introducing into the system.
The other high-chaos factor in all of this is the love between Neo and
Trinity (think 5th Element). Love cannot be computed, modeled, or
predicted. It also clues us in to the fact that the Architect might be
lying, because it was love that made Neo get up at the end of the 1st
movie. If the One were supposed to find the Source, the agents
wouldn't have succeeded in killing him.
Bob Hobbler
> He's something of a humanoid himself, but based on human genes and genetics
> ("...you remain irrevocably human..."), manipulated and bred to be
> controlled by machines. His brain is grown to be wired into the Matrix,
> therefore, his brain can be coded. Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and all the
> others from the Matrix are a new breed of human, mixing with "real humans"
> in Zion once woken up. The machines figured out how to wire up human brains
> and "code" them. The cosmic flipside of what the Animatrix tells us, where
> man built machines and controlled them. They now control us via coding. The
> humans in the Matrix are controllable to a certain degree, save the software
> bug that allows some of these bred humanoids to "wake up."
>
> I'm leaning towards the notion that Neo is a new kind of human being evolved
> to operate in the Matrix, via theory #3. He's part human and part machine
> (an obvious point missed by many of us discussing this issue I think since a
> cable can be jacked into his skull), put into the Matrix by the Architect
> and the machines. He's been born and bred to live in the simulated world.
> He's still human for the most part, but his brain can be coded to live out
> the prophecy of the One. Which means...
>
I think you are missing a key point here. I don't think Neo is a humanoid.
But as a human he grew up inside the matrix. Therefore everything that
he learned in life was learned from the Matrix, and so the programmers
have some control over how the particular human mind of Neo will turn
out, but they can't control his personality completely, anymore than
than his parents could have.
The business about the 5 predecessors of Neo is confusing. There can only
be one physical Neo unless the machines are cloning him. If there was
only one physical Neo, then when Neo is plugged into the Matrix, the
machines must have a way to erase his memory from a certain point and
then reload the simulation from there.
BH
Chris
>
> >The Architect is simply referring to the number of other Ones that appeared
> >before him. Neo is the sixth.
> >
> >Note that there is nothing here to assume that the other Ones before Neo
> >were simply other versions of Neo. That is a possibility, but nothing done
> >up to now should lead us to that conclusion. I think we should expect that
> >Neo is himself, and is just the sixth human to make it to the Source.
>
> Yes! Thank you. I totally agree here that there's no reason to
> assume the previous Ones (heh) were literally Neo.
>
In the scene with the architect when you see the different responses
from Neo on the TV screens. I think the architect is replaying the
same conversation he had with the previous 5 Neos. Each with an
individual response.
Based on that, when Neo chooses the door, he takes the same door the
other Neos took. Essentially making the same decision the other ones
did. Is the architect "lying"? I doubt it. Just my two cents.
Eric A. Gravel
>It seems that the Architect is making the claim that he needs Neo in order
>to reload the simulation somehow. But he only needs Neo temporarily. I just
>kind of assume that the things Neo has learned on his path to
>"enlightenment" are to be re-used by the Architect somehow for the next
>cycle of the simulation. So the Architect can learn more and more and reach
>a point where the simulation achieves "mathematical perfection" at some
>point.
I agree with pretty everything Andrei has theorized on. There just one thing
I would like to add to the above paragraph.
I agree the the Architect needs Neo temporarily to analyze/learn and patch
the next matrix cycle. But I also think that one of the reason he is needed
temporarly is that it will allow for the machines to destroy Zion at which
point he is allowed to go back to it and rebuild it. We see in the movie that
when he chooses the other door, he goes back to Zion and is able to stop some
machines.
Raymond May
here post regarding the video game Enter The Matrix, so I'll chime in with
my observation here. Also the caveat that I've only beaten the game with one
of the two characters.
SPOILERS AHEAD
There is a scene where Niobe (Jada Pinkett Smith) is in the Merovingian's
castle in the mountains rescuing her partner Ghost (Anthony Wong). She
enters the TV room and finds Persephone alone. After a brief conversation,
in which Persephone bemoans her lack of purpose and observes that Niobe is
in love, Persephone offers to take Niobe to Ghost if she (Niobe) kisses her
(Persephone). Persephone then asks Niobe if she's afraid to kiss a woman,
which Niobe responds that Persephone is neither a woman nor human. Niobe
then gives Persephone a quick peck on the lips, and Persephone says that she
would have preferred that Niobe had shot her in the kneecaps instead. Niobe
says "Wait", then gives Persephone a long, hot kiss. Persephone is
impressed, then asks the name of Niobe's beloved. Niobe responds "Jason"
(Lock). Persephone says (paraphrasing here, I don't have a transcript
handy), "No, it's not. But I bet Jason knows." Persephone opens up her
bookcase, and the gameplay resumes with Niobe's rescue.
Now, one could dismiss the scene as a cheap rehash of Persephone's scene
with Neo in Reloaded, reflecting some lesbian fetish (These are the guys
that made Bound, after all). But the similarity of the encounter really made
me wonder about WHY she felt such a need for intimate contact. I agree with
Andrei that Persephone, not the Oracle, is the mother of the Matrix that the
Architect spoke of, and the full extent of her role in this story is not yet
known.
Of course I could just be hoping that Monica Bellucci gets more screen time
in Revolutions. I think she's one of the most gorgeous women I've ever seen.
Maybe if I get bored in the next couple of days I'll transcribe the scene
from the game to post on this thread.
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
> Interesting post, especially regarding Persephone. I haven't seen anyone
> here post regarding the video game Enter The Matrix, so I'll chime in
> with my observation here. Also the caveat that I've only beaten the game
> with one of the two characters.
[snip]
Without giving much away, I can tell you that the Peresephone scene is very
similar for both Niobe and Ghost. But as it turns out...
SPOILER WARNING...
89
55
34
21
13
8
5
3
2
1
... Ghost is in love with Niobe. The Oracle later tells him that she'll
never love him back, and that's why he's chosen the path of celibacy.
Steve Tilson
--
"It's like I tell the kids: Quitters never win, and don't trust whitey."
- Family Guy
Justin Bacon
>In the scene with the architect when you see the different responses
>from Neo on the TV screens. I think the architect is replaying the
>same conversation he had with the previous 5 Neos. Each with an
>individual response.
There's no basis for this theory, and it's directly contradicted by the fact
there are more than five responses to any given response. There are two likely
explanations:
1. They are predicted responses. This doesn't seem likely, considering that
most of them tend to be extreme or only semi-logical.
2. They are a visual representation of Neo's actual thought process. This is
more likely, IMO, since their extreme and semi-logical nature is more
consistent with a scattered thought process.
>Based on that, when Neo chooses the door, he takes the same door the
>other Neos took. Essentially making the same decision the other ones
>did. Is the architect "lying"?
If all the other Ones did, in fact, chose to return to the Matrix then the
Architect was *definitely* lying.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
Raymond May wrote:
>Now, one could dismiss the scene as a cheap rehash of Persephone's scene
>with Neo in Reloaded, reflecting some lesbian fetish
Ghost also experiences a similar scene when you play through his side of the
game.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Without giving much away, I can tell you that the Peresephone scene is very
>similar for both Niobe and Ghost. But as it turns out...
>
>SPOILER WARNING...
>
>89
>
>55
>
>34
>
>21
>
>13
>
>8
>
>5
>
>3
>
>2
>
>1
>
>... Ghost is in love with Niobe. The Oracle later tells him that she'll
>never love him back, and that's why he's chosen the path of celibacy.
Niobe was also my assumption, but since that's never stated you can actually
spin out at least one other interesting possibility: Trinity.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Jordan Lund
> Jordan Lund wrote:
> >I'd say that in Reloaded we see two other former ones. The Merovingian
> >I suspect was one of the first ones, if not the first one and
> >Persephone was his corresponding Trinity
>
> Except:
>
> (a) He's a program.
> (b) There was no "corresponding Trinity" for the previous Ones.
>
> Unless the Architect was lying.
The Architect says that Neo has the capacity for love, which his
predecessors lacked. Not that there wasn't an equivalent Trinity.
There very well could have been, but there was no love between them
and that's what makes the difference. Think of this... Does the
Merovingian love Persephone? Not a chance. "Not in this lifetime." If
he had to choose between her and re-booting the Matrix how long would
it take for him to decide?
- Jordan
RufusTFirefly
> Axis wrote:
> >Thinking about it a bit more, where does the Merovingian stand
> >in all this? Apparently he's been around since the early matrices, so
> >presumably this is the 6th time he's had to give up the key maker...
>
> It's also possible that this is the first time he's kidnapped the Key
Maker,
> explicitly in an attempt to prevent the Matrix from being rebooted.
I think that it is a leap to assume that things occurred exactly the same in
each version of the Matrix. The Architect speaks in the broadest of terms,
and we cannot be sure that each in past versions of the Matrix actions
occurred precisely as they do in this version. So the previous versions of
the One may have had interactions with the Merovingian, but what those
interactions entailed can only be theorized.
>
> Justin Bacon
> tria...@aol.com
thasmodious
> It might be interesting to draw other parallels between myth and
> Matrix: since mythic Persephone was raped and bore children by Zeus
> and Hades, and the Architect is Zeus-like in function and appearance,
> perhaps we can ask against who is Matrix Persephone exacting her
> revenge, the Architect or the Morovignian? Or both?
Now we are getting into the heart of Greek mythology and the
Campbellian archetypes. IF the Architect is the designer of the
Matrix and Neo is an anamoly, then in some sense the Architect is
Neo's father. Following the Zeus-Hades-Persephone triangle, would the
anamoly that is the One be the product of the Architect's union with
Persephone, making her Neos mother. Her "union" with the Morovignian
might well be the source of the Agents (Furies). I agree that
Morovignian is cleary a Hades-like "lord" of the Matrix. The
interesting thing if this is the case, Neo and Smith are
"half-brothers", which would explain why their coming together had
such interesting consequences. One question is does Neo's new found
ability to affect machines in the real world come from his interaction
with Smith or from something Persephone passed to him in their kiss.
Concerning the previous "One's" and why they didn't tell the 23 the
whole story, I can think of a few scenarios. First, after Morpheus
frees Neo and tells him about the prophecy he tells him about the
previous One, who could control the Matrix and freed the first of
them. Why do they not know the "truth"? What happened to the
previous Ones? Is the Head of the Council Neo's predecessor?
1. The brain hack theory already mentioned. Upon making his
"choice", the One's memory is altered to pursue his new primary task.
So he doesn't remember the "whole truth".
2. The One does remember, but chooses not to tell them. Upon being
given the choice by the Architect, he realizes the only option for
humanity to survive is to restart everything. Yet, to tell the 23
would be to take away the ideas
of choice and hope that are necessary for them to find purpose in
rebuilding Zion and fighting the war. Predestination.
3. Some of them DO know the truth; some of the Council, Morpheus
perhaps (explaining why he says Neo is their only hope, referring more
to the possibility that Neo can break the cycle as opposed to just
carrying out his purpose). Neo alludes to this when he tells the
Architect "either no one told me or no one knows"
These questions that we are asking and speculating about are the real
cliffhangers of Reloaded.
Stephen Souter
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com wrote:
> Excellent post. Snipped for brevity, as what I want to say has
> specifically to do with Persephone and the Merovingian.
>
> "Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect,
> > it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
> > monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me
> > now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being,
> > thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the
> > varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by
> > failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me
> > because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the
> > parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another,
> > an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of
> > the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly
> > be its mother.
> >
> > Neo - The Oracle.
> >
> > //**********
> > //**********
> >
> > I'm still shocked by the number of people who take this hook, line and
> > sinker. The Architect is not talking about the Oracle, IMHO. The Oracle
> > seems to be on a plane almost equivalent to the Architect.
> >
> > The Architect's "Please" response is said with a sense of belittlement. I
> > don't think we can conclude the Architect is referring to the Oracle. I
> > think we should conclude that the Architect is referring to Persephone.
> > There are many stories around Persephone playing a much larger role in
> > Revolutions than in Reloaded. And they gave her own poster for crying out
> > loud!
> >
>
> I'm no scholar of mythology, but a study of the mythos of Persephone makes
> for interesting reading. Persephone was the daughter of Demeter, goddess
> of agriculture and the afterlife, and was raped by Zeus, who then gave her
> to Hades, god of the underworld, as his wife. Persephone had offspring by
> both Zeus and Hades; her children by Zeus were Zagreos, an early form of
> Dionysus, and Melinoe, a terrifying demon. Her children by Hades were the
> Erinyes, or Euminedes, or the Furies, three goddesses who avenged wrongs
> and pursued their victims relentlessly.
>
> It may be a stretch, but suppose that the Architect=Zeus and the
> Merovingian=Hades. If the Architect and Persephone gave birth to the
> Matrix, then the Matrix could be seen as a sort of Dionysian construct: its
> inhabitants know pleasure (or at least as much as the human mind can accept
> as reality) and periodically the whole thing is destroyed only to be
> recreated. Once Persephone completed the work that made the Matrix 99.9%
> reliable, the Architect gave her to the Merovingian, god of the Matrix
> underworld -- its security elements, perhaps, and the source of the Agents?
> -- as a reward for something he did. (In the myth, Demeter rescues
> Persephone from the underworld, but because Persephone has eaten the food
> of Hades, she must spend some time with her husband each year.)
>
> I think the Furies, offspring of Persephone and Hades (or at least
> controlled by them), are the Agents. There always seem to be three of
> them. Could Persephone and the Merovingian be responsible for their
> coding?
>
> So who's Agent Smith? Melinoe, perhaps?
Just to add to the above concerning the name "Merovingian". The
Merovingians were a dynasty of Frankish kings from the early Middle Ages.
The two kingdoms they ruled (Neustria & Austrasia) eventually became the
kernel of what would later become France. (They were followed by the
Carolingians, of whom the most famous was Charlemagne. Charlemagne's
father was not originally a king himself but only the mayor of the palace
under the last of the Merovingians, Childeric, a position which he used
to depose Childeric and make himself king.)
Eric Voisard
> rebooted... Thinking about it a bit more, where does the Merovingian stand
> in all this? Apparently he's been around since the early matrices, so
> presumably this is the 6th time he's had to give up the key maker...
The Merovingian looks indeed beeing around since several cycles: he was
waiting for Neo's arrival and makes several comments about Neo coming again.
However he looks not prepared to the what occured this time: when he sees
Neo & Co with Persephone and the Keymaker, he looks quite annoyed and
surprised, and says something like "Well, we'll see where all of this will
get us...". Like if the Keymaker evading with Neo was new to him...
Eric
Justin Bacon
>> Except:
>>
>> (a) He's a program.
>> (b) There was no "corresponding Trinity" for the previous Ones.
>>
>> Unless the Architect was lying.
>
>The Architect says that Neo has the capacity for love, which his
>predecessors lacked.
Actually, no. He doesn't. He states that Neo's predecessors had a generalized
connection to mankind, but that Neo's connection was much more specific ("vis a
vis, love"). He says nothing about their capacity for love.
>Think of this... Does the
>Merovingian love Persephone? Not a chance.
According to Persephone, he used to.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>> It's also possible that this is the first time he's kidnapped the Key Maker,
>> explicitly in an attempt to prevent the Matrix from being rebooted.
>
>I think that it is a leap to assume that things occurred exactly the same in
>each version of the Matrix.
Exactly.
>The Architect speaks in the broadest of terms,
>and we cannot be sure that each in past versions of the Matrix actions
>occurred precisely as they do in this version.
In fact, there's plenty of evidence that quite a bit changes from one Matrix to
the next. Which is to be expected.
We can probably assume that the One always goes on a quest for the Key Maker,
reaches the Door of Light, and has a confrontation with the Architect (because
events of roughly that nature are demanded by the Prophecy and what the Oracle
guides the One to do).
This, of course, assumes that the Architect is telling the truth.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Is the Head of the Council Neo's predecessor?
The Head of the Council is definitely not Neo's predecessor. The One explicitly
left or died (I can't remember the exact line).
>3. Some of them DO know the truth; some of the Council, Morpheus
>perhaps (explaining why he says Neo is their only hope, referring more
>to the possibility that Neo can break the cycle as opposed to just
>carrying out his purpose). Neo alludes to this when he tells the
>Architect "either no one told me or no one knows"
Definitely not Morpheus. If Morpheus were aware of the cycle he was trying to
break, his faith would not be shattered the way we see it at the end of
RELOADED.
Okay, sure, Morpheus could be putting on an act. But at that point, to what
purpose? We've got to take *something* at face value.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
RufusTFirefly
tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
I guess that the Architect speaks the truth as he understands it, but is
limited by his point of view, which is not as omnipotent as he believes
it to be.
Brian D. Fernald
lu...@earthlink.net said...
This is incorrect. The Architect says that all the 'Ones' had the
capacity for love, they just realized it in a general way for the
entire body of humanity. Neo just focuses that love not on humankind
but on a single individual. Thus, the way the choice is framed. Two
outcomes, both of which are an expression of love. Do you love
humanity enough to attempt to save it? Do you love Trinity enough to
attempt to save her?
And now, I'm going to listen to some Bob Marley...
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Brian D. Fernald
@aol.com said...
> Chris wrote:
> >In the scene with the architect when you see the different responses
> >from Neo on the TV screens. I think the architect is replaying the
> >same conversation he had with the previous 5 Neos. Each with an
> >individual response.
>
> There's no basis for this theory, and it's directly contradicted by the fact
> there are more than five responses to any given response. There are two likely
> explanations:
>
> 1. They are predicted responses. This doesn't seem likely, considering that
> most of them tend to be extreme or only semi-logical.
>
> 2. They are a visual representation of Neo's actual thought process. This is
> more likely, IMO, since their extreme and semi-logical nature is more
> consistent with a scattered thought process.
periodically throughout the scene. (One of my favorite details.) This
would seem to indicate that there is an active functionality to those
screens, rather then them being nothing more then a passive display of
past sequences.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Brian D. Fernald
s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au said...
The Merovingians claimed descent from Jesus Christ, through a son
mothered by Mary Magdalene. Some 'myths' also say that they are the
keepers of the holy grail.
--
BDF.
FSOBN.
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
Also a distinct possibility, given their conversation and their apparently
frequent sparring sessions. One I'd discounted, though, due to Ghost's
likely knowledge that Trinity is devoted to Neo.
Niobe, OTOH, doesn't seem particularly devoted either to Lock or to
Morpheus. She's far more available than Trinity (not that availability
ever really matters where love is concerned). And as much time as Ghost
may spend with Trinity, he spends *far* more -- and under much more
stressful circumstances -- with Niobe.
Still... Trinity's a possibility. Not that it'll ultimately matter a hill
of beans who it is; we'll see more of Ghost in Revolutions but I doubt
it'll be *that* much more.
So, are the Wachowskis really masters of misdirection, or are we jumping at
shadows on our own?
Eric Voisard
> We can probably assume that the One always goes on a quest for the Key
Maker,
but might not always have succeded in getting him, since it's like if the
Merovingian wasn't prepared to this new outcome. (see my post in same
sub-thread).
It's quite possible it was the first time Neo kidnapped the Keymaker, in
which case some other leads conducted him the Architect in previous cycles,
or this was the first time he eventually reached him. (if which case the
Architect is definitely a f... liar)
Eric
Holden
"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Firstly... it's only a movie. That said, why get worked up over and just
> wait until November? Because I feel like it and I think its fun. I think
> some others would agree. If you don't like over-analyzing movie dialogue
and
> plot points, then STOP READING RIGHT NOW.
>
> Good. That's out of the way.
>
> Things we can assume to a certain degree up to the point of the
Architect's
> interaction with Neo:
<snip>
Someone added one scene from the game but there is so much backstory there,
I thought I would add some of the other relevant scenes. For those who are
not aware, the game was written and directed by the Wachowski Bros. on the
set of the movies, while the movies were being filmed. Everything contained
therein is part of the actual storyline and there is an hour of extra DVD
footage to complement the main story.
Now, on to the relevant scenes -
1) The game begins before the movie, and it starts with Ghost and Niobe
jacking in to the Matrix. Ghost starts checking his guns while Niobe asks
him why he does that since the program loads the guns for him. He replies
(paraphrased since I cannot remember the exact quote) "Hume teaches us that
every time you have dropped a pebble it falls to the floor. But the next
time you drop a pebble that may not happen. It may drop to the floor, or it
may float to the ceiling." i.e., the program may be tampered with or have a
bug or any number of other problems. He then nails one of the themes of the
entire movie and Neo's conversation with the Architect - "Past experience
does not prove the future".
2) After picking up the package that was dropped in Final Flight of the
Osiris (which contains info on the machine's upcoming attack on Zion) Niobe
is about to jack out when she is interrupted by a bum in a subway station.
The bum tells her "72 hours. That's how long Zion lasted the last time. Just
72 hours". When she asked him who he was, he replied "Me? I'm just a
spectator." and laughs wildly before leaving. Later, in the movie, you can
see him in the background of the meeting with the Merovingian - he's being
led out of the room by guards, suggesting that he's more than just a
spectator. The only other scene with him is a brief flash in the preview of
the 3rd film. (btw, he was played by the crazy guy in the Mad Max movies,
the one with the makeshift helicopter and flight goggles on all the time).
3) Ballard (played by Roy Jones, Jr. a boxer) is the first to encounter
Seraph. Seraph wants to lead him to the Oracle but first he apologizes to
Ballard, and then attacks him, just like he did to Neo in the movie.
Ballard's moves are a combination of kung-fu and boxing, and he makes short
work of Seraph. Seraph stops fighting and says "Thank you. You do not truly
know someone until you fight them" just like he did to Neo. Ballard replies
with one of, if not the, best lines in the game. "All you know is that I was
about to whip your ass...". Interestingly, they did not show his actual
meeting with the Oracle or what role he plays in all of this, but they made
it a point to show him visiting her, so Ballard likely has a greater role in
the third movie.
4) Deadbolt, leader of Zion's defense and Niobe's lover, lied to the council
about Niobe's ship, The Logos. He said it was too small to be used in Zion's
defense and convinced the Council to let her stay at home, which thoroughly
pissed Niobe off. This explains why she volunteered to blow the power
station and why she gave him that evil go-to-hell look when she did.
Morpheus treats her as an equal, Deadbolt treats her as something to be
protected, and the game shows time and time again that she can't stand being
coddled.
5) The Keymaker escapes long enough to enlist Ghost and Niobe's help but is
quickly recaptured by the Merovingian's guards. Both Ghost and Niobe meet
Persephone shortly thereafter. Both times, Persephone forces them to kiss
her while thinking about their one true love before she offers to help (just
like with Neo). Niobe falters and has to kiss her twice, Ghost gives it his
all in the first shot :) (Ghost is in love with someone he cannot have and
makes several mentions to forced celibacy throughout the game). Persephone
tells Niobe that she is not in love with Jason (Deadbolt) but with Morpheus
and she knows it. She reaffirms to Ghost that he cannot have the one he
loves.
6) Ghost spars with Trinity. The script never states if Ghost's love is for
Niobe or Trinity, but this scene at least *suggests* that he both loves
Trinity and is very close to her. They speak vaguely about relationships
after fighting, and Trinity appears to know who it is that Ghost cares for
and to be sympathetic for his plight without ever revealing if it is her or
not. Overall, they appear to be closer to one another than most of the other
main characters. There is no scene with Niobe interacting with Trinity.
7) Both Niobe and Ghost visit the Oracle near the end of the game (which
coincides with the end of the movie) after Neo has spoken with the
Architect. What she says gives more background on what happened in the end
than in the movie.
To Ghost, she reaffirms once again that he cannot have the one he
loves.(poor Ghost, he is my favorite character. He is the quintessential
soldier: always ready, never complaining).
To both of them, she first explains why she looks different now (the
original Oracle died during filming so the Oracle in the game and in part
three is played by a different actress). She says that even she has choices,
and the Merovingian warned her that if she chose to help Neo, she would pay
for it. This is why Seraph is so devoutly protecting her; The Merovingian
was trying to kill her before she could help Neo, and almost succeeded
shortly thereafter. They do not explain why the Merovingian wants Neo to
fail, other than that he wants to keep the Keymaker for himself.
By far the most important part of the game though, is when she basically
explains about Neo and his newfound powers outside the Matrix (this happened
after the Neo found the source). She told him that when he found the Source
it altered him fundamentally, and that he is now stuck half in the other
world, and half in this one. She said that only Trinity can save him, but to
do that Trinity needs all the help she can get, specifically from Ghost and
Niobe. She then goes on to explain the importance of everyone's role,
summarized by saying "the path of the one is made by the many", and that
even she cannot see how it will all end.
So the game confirms that Neo at least is still stuck inside the Matrix in
some way or another, but that he is also outside of it in the real world.
The Oracle does not offer any details on why or how. It also suggests that
both of the main characters of the game will play much bigger roles in the
third movie, which is good, cuz' like I said, Ghost kicks ass :)
8) After the battle to protect Zion is lost, the Logos is attacked by
machines. They have to retreat deep into the earth and the ship is damaged,
effectively stranding them. The game ends with Ghost and Niobe discussing
whether or not anyone will ever find them and what they will do after that.
Hope that helps! Now you've got a little more to go on.
Kevin Casto
Ghost is in love with Trinity, not Niobe. At least, that's what I got
out of it.
When Ghost meets with Oracle they discuss his unrequited love. The
(new) Oracle rememebrs saying that she (the object of his love) would
never love him except for as a brother. Although Trinity isn't named
in that scene, or the scene with Persephone, there is a scene between
Ghost and Trinity earlier in the game in Ghost's virtual Zen garden.
They refer to each other as brother and sister in the scene and it's
clear that they are very close friends. When you see the Oracle scene,
the sister/brother comments from the earlier scene take on a new
meaning.
Justin Bacon
>2) After picking up the package that was dropped in Final Flight of the
>Osiris (which contains info on the machine's upcoming attack on Zion) Niobe
>is about to jack out when she is interrupted by a bum in a subway station.
>The bum tells her "72 hours. That's how long Zion lasted the last time. Just
>72 hours". When she asked him who he was, he replied "Me? I'm just a
>spectator." and laughs wildly before leaving. Later, in the movie, you can
>see him in the background of the meeting with the Merovingian - he's being
>led out of the room by guards, suggesting that he's more than just a
>spectator.
I'm pretty sure that's not him. The guy being led away by the Merovingian's
guards looks to be an Indian (from India). I could be wrong, but I'm pretty
sure it's not the same guy.
But the guy saying "72 hours" does appear in the trailer for REVOLUTIONS, as
you say.
>Ballard replies
>with one of, if not the, best lines in the game. "All you know is that I was
>about to whip your ass...". Interestingly, they did not show his actual
>meeting with the Oracle or what role he plays in all of this, but they made
>it a point to show him visiting her, so Ballard likely has a greater role in
>the third movie.
Ballard is dead. He's the captain of Bane's ship, after all, and everyone on
that ship is dead except for Bane.
Actually there's a problem with the Ballard scene in the game: If Ballard went
to see the Oracle and pick up the message, why is it Ballard's two crew members
who are carrying the message when Smith catches up with them? There's various
ways to handwave this, but it stands as a continuity gap.
>5) The Keymaker escapes long enough to enlist Ghost and Niobe's help but is
>quickly recaptured by the Merovingian's guards.
Am I the only one who finds this to be the weakest sequence in the game? The
level design and gameplay is fine, but the plot just seems to be chasing its
own tail.
>Persephone
>tells Niobe that she is not in love with Jason (Deadbolt) but with Morpheus
>and she knows it.
Well, she doesn't state its Morpheus. But we've gotta assume...
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
Justin Bacon
>> Niobe was also my assumption, but since that's never stated you can
>> actually spin out at least one other interesting possibility: Trinity.
>
>Also a distinct possibility, given their conversation and their apparently
>frequent sparring sessions. One I'd discounted, though, due to Ghost's
>likely knowledge that Trinity is devoted to Neo.
Right. But if you assume that both Ghost's feelings and the Oracle's answer to
his question ("will she ever love me?", IIRC) both pre-date the appearance of
Neo, it makes sense. And that fits a far more fascinating pattern of Oracular
answers ("you will fall in love with the One, Trinity"; "Trinity will never
fall in love with you, Ghost").
But I'd still assume its Niobe, personally.
>Still... Trinity's a possibility. Not that it'll ultimately matter a hill
>of beans who it is; we'll see more of Ghost in Revolutions but I doubt
>it'll be *that* much more.
Agreed. I assume that Niobe's love story will reach some kind of resolution in
REVOLUTIONS, but I doubt Ghost's will get any screen time.
Interesting thing to watch for in RELOADED: You can see the Logos' operator
during the scene where Niobe volunteers to go looking for the Neb. But it looks
to me like he's been digitally created and inserted into the sequence.
>So, are the Wachowskis really masters of misdirection, or are we jumping at
>shadows on our own?
I just think the Wachowskis are saavy enough to say:
(a) We don't really need to tell you out right who Ghost's unrequited love is;
and
(b) It's probably more effective if we don't.
Otherwise they'd just tell us during the Oracle scene.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
ccc
> > It would seem that since only five other humans have ever made it to this
> > room, no one (at least no other human) knows about the Architect and that's
> > why no one knows that this series of events has occurred multiple times. The
> > other Ones choose to save humanity and rebuild Zion after the machines
> > destroy it.
> >
> > How that information gets lost in history is unknown, but given how much we
> > have lost of our own history as time moves forward, it seems plausible that
> > those in Zion have not passed the information down correctly from generation
> > to generation.
>
> Maybe, IMHO, when the One enters the Source, somehow, the architect
> erases important information from the One's brain, thus, he would be
> unable to remember anything about the previous Matrix or his
> predecessors, like when Cypher made that deal with the agents, he
> didn't want to remember anything from his previous life, and the
> agents said that it would be done.
>
> <snip>
Two options make sense to me:
1) Had he made the choice to "go with the program," (tee hee) once he
had chosen his 23 people the Architect reprogrammed his brain to a)
forget (most) everything that had happened up to that point, and b)
believe that he was some random man born inside the Matrix with the
ability to change whatever he wanted. He begins freeing people, thus
starting the resistence all over again.
2) Because he knows (or believes) the survival of the human race
depends on the resetting of the Matrix, he willfully deceives the 23
people into believing they could at some point defeat the machines and
teaches them the things they need to know to begin the resistance.
This was what I assumed when I saw the movie.
Not sure which option I prefer. I still don't understand why, from
the machines' point of view, Zion needed to be around in the first
place. Wouldn't it have been easier for the Architect to give the
humans choice, and then once they chose to reject the matrix, to just
kill them off? Make them believe they had a choice (just like they
believed in the rest of the matrix), just to wake up and find they
didn't? That way the anomaly would never grow into a threat. Help,
anyone?
CCC
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Someone added one scene from the game but there is so much backstory there,
>I thought I would add some of the other relevant scenes. For those who are
>2) After picking up the package that was dropped in Final Flight of the
>Osiris (which contains info on the machine's upcoming attack on Zion) Niobe
>is about to jack out when she is interrupted by a bum in a subway station.
>The bum tells her "72 hours. That's how long Zion lasted the last time. Just
>72 hours". When she asked him who he was, he replied "Me? I'm just a
>spectator." and laughs wildly before leaving. Later, in the movie, you can
>see him in the background of the meeting with the Merovingian - he's being
>led out of the room by guards, suggesting that he's more than just a
>spectator. The only other scene with him is a brief flash in the preview of
>the 3rd film. (btw, he was played by the crazy guy in the Mad Max movies,
>the one with the makeshift helicopter and flight goggles on all the time).
I'd swear the guy led out of the Merovingian's restaurant wasn't
the bum... It does seem to be important; Neo looks straight at him before
the introductions begin.
>3) Ballard (played by Roy Jones, Jr. a boxer) is the first to encounter
>Seraph. Seraph wants to lead him to the Oracle but first he apologizes to
>Ballard, and then attacks him, just like he did to Neo in the movie.
>Ballard's moves are a combination of kung-fu and boxing,
Yes, this was nice. IIRC, this is the first time we've seen
anything besides the wu-shu-esque kung-fu throughout both movies and the
game. Well, and "Program" from the Animatrix depicts a slightly
Japanese-styled version of Matrix-fu.
>and he makes short
>work of Seraph.
I think that's arguable. If someone who's not the One can beat
Seraph so easily, then he's not much of a bodyguard. He merely fights Neo
to test him. I'm not quite sure why he fights Ballard and Ghost/Niobe,
but I think it's as much for parallelism with the film as it is for the
stated reason.
>5) The Keymaker escapes long enough to enlist Ghost and Niobe's help but is
>quickly recaptured by the Merovingian's guards. Both Ghost and Niobe meet
>Persephone shortly thereafter. Both times, Persephone forces them to kiss
>her while thinking about their one true love before she offers to help (just
>like with Neo).
This scene, for me, convinces me that Persephone's kiss with Neo
was not like the chocolate cake. I think it's more that Persephone does
not experience human emotions except secondhand, which is partly why she
demands this of Niobe/Ghost. And of course, again with the film/game
parallelism.
>6) Ghost spars with Trinity. The script never states if Ghost's love is for
>Niobe or Trinity, but this scene at least *suggests* that he both loves
>Trinity and is very close to her. They speak vaguely about relationships
Calling your unrequited love "sister"? Ewwwww.
--
"I yused to coudnt spel injunear, now I are one."
-attribution ?
Shaggydog
haha
--
Shaggy
"ccc" <cc...@att.net> wrote in message
news:e22274a9.03052...@posting.google.com...
David Stinson
>"Andrei Herasimchuk" <aheras...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit dans le message
>news: 6Kkya.215$FO3...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
ud!
>>
>> Persephone's motives, the need for the kiss for example, is something that
>> fits better with a machine designed to "investigate the human condition."
>> How Persephone plays out in Revolutions remains to be seen. Her kiss may
>> have been some transfer of knowledge that will be used against Neo in
>> Revolutions. Who knows...
>
>Persephone's unclear role and this kiss raise a lot of questions to me.
>
>As Neo's love for Trinity seems of importance for the One's behaviour in the
>cycle and his possible choices, this request for a kiss looks like a
>pass/fail test against this love. But what would she have concluded if Neo
>had refused, or if he was unable to give her a somewhat sensual kiss.
>
>Anyway, the relation between her and the Merovingian looks like an old
>couple without lots of mutual esteem. Although she was somewhat standing in
>the Merovingian's shadow at the beginning, Persephone didn't look that
>impressed by him and eventually took decisions that countered his will and
>caused him prejudice, however she didn't look effraid at all by his possible
>retaliation. And when she freed the Keymaker, the Merovingian looked quite
>surprised and helpless.
>She looks to be at least as powerful as the Merovingian, and she seems on
>the "goods" side.
>
>.... but this kiss....
>
>Well, I'm perplex and I would like to know the others thoughts about
>Persephone and the Merovingian.
>
I believe Persephone to be the Other/Female the architect referred to.
However, instead of improving the matrix, she's try to improve the humans.
Mario Di Giacomo
> Niobe. She then goes on to explain the importance of everyone's role,
> summarized by saying "the path of the one is made by the many", and that
> even she cannot see how it will all end.
"The Many" = Smith?
Best/Mario
Justin Bacon
No. By context she's referring to herself, Niobe, and others like them: People
who will aid Neo in his journey.
(Although Smith could be included in this grouping through a slightly broader
interpretation of "people who will play a role in Neo's journey".)
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Rolland Smith
reponses being figured by the Matrix before he says the one that he does in
fact "choose".
Good points to indicate that the Architect IS lying.
"Chris" <chris....@vitas.com> wrote in message
news:3a70055c.03052...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >
> > >The Architect is simply referring to the number of other Ones that
appeared
> > >before him. Neo is the sixth.
> > >
> > >Note that there is nothing here to assume that the other Ones before
Neo
> > >were simply other versions of Neo. That is a possibility, but nothing
done
> > >up to now should lead us to that conclusion. I think we should expect
that
> > >Neo is himself, and is just the sixth human to make it to the Source.
> >
> > Yes! Thank you. I totally agree here that there's no reason to
> > assume the previous Ones (heh) were literally Neo.
> >
>
> In the scene with the architect when you see the different responses
> from Neo on the TV screens. I think the architect is replaying the
> same conversation he had with the previous 5 Neos. Each with an
> individual response.
>
> Based on that, when Neo chooses the door, he takes the same door the
> other Neos took. Essentially making the same decision the other ones
> did. Is the architect "lying"? I doubt it. Just my two cents.
Rolland Smith
the Matrix is because of her "looks". She had a memorable scene in Reloaded
and to me, thats that. I do agree though if she does have purpose that its
just completely unknown and the answer MIGHT lye in Revolutions or it might
not and we may just surmise that all she was there for was a kiss of the
long missed feeling of love and to piss of her careless Merovingian husband.
If she is the mother of the Matrix, I'll be extremely surprised because I
saw no indications of that whatsoever.
"Raymond May" <raym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O_Qya.55471$Ur1....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Interesting post, especially regarding Persephone. I haven't seen anyone
> here post regarding the video game Enter The Matrix, so I'll chime in with
> my observation here. Also the caveat that I've only beaten the game with
one
> of the two characters.
>
> SPOILERS AHEAD
>
> There is a scene where Niobe (Jada Pinkett Smith) is in the Merovingian's
> castle in the mountains rescuing her partner Ghost (Anthony Wong). She
> enters the TV room and finds Persephone alone. After a brief conversation,
> in which Persephone bemoans her lack of purpose and observes that Niobe is
> in love, Persephone offers to take Niobe to Ghost if she (Niobe) kisses
her
> (Persephone). Persephone then asks Niobe if she's afraid to kiss a woman,
> which Niobe responds that Persephone is neither a woman nor human. Niobe
> then gives Persephone a quick peck on the lips, and Persephone says that
she
> would have preferred that Niobe had shot her in the kneecaps instead.
Niobe
> says "Wait", then gives Persephone a long, hot kiss. Persephone is
> impressed, then asks the name of Niobe's beloved. Niobe responds "Jason"
> (Lock). Persephone says (paraphrasing here, I don't have a transcript
> handy), "No, it's not. But I bet Jason knows." Persephone opens up her
> bookcase, and the gameplay resumes with Niobe's rescue.
>
> Now, one could dismiss the scene as a cheap rehash of Persephone's scene
> with Neo in Reloaded, reflecting some lesbian fetish (These are the guys
> that made Bound, after all). But the similarity of the encounter really
made
> me wonder about WHY she felt such a need for intimate contact. I agree
with
> Andrei that Persephone, not the Oracle, is the mother of the Matrix that
the
> Architect spoke of, and the full extent of her role in this story is not
yet
> known.
>
> Of course I could just be hoping that Monica Bellucci gets more screen
time
> in Revolutions. I think she's one of the most gorgeous women I've ever
seen.
>
> Maybe if I get bored in the next couple of days I'll transcribe the scene
> from the game to post on this thread.
>
>
Rolland Smith
I haven't seen anyone post anything about this, but here goes (if it could
mean anything at all) -
Who was being escorted off to the left side of the screen when M, T and N
were first approaching Merovingian's dinner table? There was a brief look
there of some eyes pearing at M, T and N as they walked up to the table Mero
was at, but this moment was very very small. They might've shown this guy
getting escorted off to the side for maybe 2 seconds and then Merovingian
addressed M, T and N.
Any thoughts on who that was? What it might mean if anything? I mean every
scene in the movie never seems to be for fluff..... it seems that everything
has a meaning - along with why we all wonder about the "OUTER SPACE screen -
STARS in the blackness" shown just before the Architect and Neo first start
talking. After seeing the movie a 2nd time around, I wondered if the STARS
really represented (for whatever reason) the lights on at night in Zion.
There is a part that Morpheus looks out at Zion before bed and its made to
look as if its a NIGHT SKY. Does this mean anything? or is it just screen
fluff? Could it mean that the Architect was watching Zion on the screens
just before Neo walked in? I dunno. Maybe I'm going too far into it.
Rolland
"Eric Voisard" <evoisard@MAPS_ON.ieee.org> wrote in message
news:3ecc2082$1...@news.swissonline.ch...
Rolland Smith
that the last post about this that I'm going to spend my mindful time on is
this one in the subject line posted by Andrei Herasimchuk. I saw back on the
20th that he (or she? - Has to be a dude right?) posted the Architect's
script and did a line by line review of it. I'm going to respond to that and
I think that will be my official position on the whole Matrix REVOLUTION
(singular). Why am I telling you all this? Well cause I'm sure it will make
you all have that warm and fuzzy feeling inside knowing that Rolland is
going to respond to Andrei Herasimchuk's take on the Reloaded Architect
script, plus I'm damn tired at 5:54 AM from reading all these posts for 5
hours and finally cause this is probably yet another message that S. Hanson
will be pissy at seeing on here. hehe
Rock on everybody.
Rolland
Rajendra Gondhalekar
> the machines' point of view, Zion needed to be around in the first
> place. Wouldn't it have been easier for the Architect to give the
> humans choice, and then once they chose to reject the matrix, to just
> kill them off? Make them believe they had a choice (just like they
> believed in the rest of the matrix), just to wake up and find they
> didn't? That way the anomaly would never grow into a threat. Help,
> anyone?
>
the reason why Zion exists. The One (i.e. the error in the program) is
allowed to get bigger and reach the source on it's own. Then the code
accumulated by The One can be disseminated so that Matrix 7.0 will be more
perfect. Without Zion everyone will be stuck in Matrix 2.0 or dead.
KarlJ
there is a few things I dont think our minds meet on though.
You really have a problem with this concept of the Matrix being a
computer program dont you?
The Matrix is a computer program that feeds the brain electrical
impulses.
I will say again.
Electrical Impulses. The human brain works with electrical impulses
and dosent need any wires to do this. In theory it is possible to
program a human brain by feeding it the correct electrical impulses.
Every human has this ability (including me and you) and we dont need
to be half machine. It is what the Matrix is all about, programing the
human mind with experiences.
Theory of "No Choice"
For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
free will, or choice. We make decissions based on our past
experiences. When you think about it the theory makes sense. If i took
you out for a meal, and offered you a plate of a food you didnt like,
and a plate of food you did like, then it makes sense you would always
choose the same plate. This isnt because I have programed you, but
because the experiences that you have had during your life have
programmed you. The human brain can be programmed as can anything with
a memory. It is just a matter of knowing how to feed it the
experiences.
The brain of Neo is as human as everyone elses, it has just been fed
the anomalies of the matrix that didnt fit. Thus the brain of Neo is
infected with wierdness.
Smith isnt the cause of the virus Neo is! Neo passed it on to Smith.
The human brain (including mine and yours) gives out electrical
magnetic pulses.
EMP for short.
Neo's anomalies, that were passed on to Smith, and then that other
dude (cant be bothered to look up) give him extra strong EMP.
Obviously the virus duplicates in the Matrix, and in a real human
brain it causes strong EMP.
You must remember the brothers DO like to add a bit of science/theory
into their storys, almost like they hope to teach basic science and
philosophy to some of the viewers.
Thats all, apart from that I think you got pretty close. Certainly I
learned something :) (which will now change my views and so will
change my free will)
Publio Romero Gerón
Architect consider Neo another element of control, that could led us
to think that Zion, Neo, The Real World is in fact a Matrix inside a
Matrix, is more real to think that neo feels the machines nearing
them, because he said, something is diferent, i can feel them, and
then he tries to stop then, and he succed!.
I think this is the trick, and that's why, Smith can be in the "Real
World"
Another thing is that the previous versions of the One, have been Neo
in fact!, but as an element of control, that makes Zion to be an
element of Control, as the Architect said, Hope! one of the one of
human flaws.
He give humans the choice, but he give them the feeling of control,
and the feeling that they can have hope y winning the battle againts
the machines, so he can control the events, he said, that no matter
what, they have become more efficient in exterminating Zion.
Everything the Architect said is meant to be.
But Neo become aware of the changes in this version of the One.
So we need to wait until November.
Justin Bacon
>Another thing is that the previous versions of the One, have been Neo
>in fact!,
That would suggest that Neo isn't human.
>Everything the Architect said is meant to be.
...which means that the Architect is a liar, not a sooth sayer. The Architect
specifically labels Neo a human, and implies it several additional times.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Scott
"KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote
> Great, really enjoyed reading it and you made some very strong points,
> there is a few things I dont think our minds meet on though.
>
>
> You really have a problem with this concept of the Matrix being a
> computer program dont you?
I would be suprised if anybody doubts the Matrix is a computer program...its
one of the first things we found out in the first movie
> The Matrix is a computer program that feeds the brain electrical
> impulses.
>
> I will say again.
>
> Electrical Impulses. The human brain works with electrical impulses
> and dosent need any wires to do this. In theory it is possible to
> program a human brain by feeding it the correct electrical impulses.
> Every human has this ability (including me and you) and we dont need
> to be half machine. It is what the Matrix is all about, programing the
> human mind with experiences.
In factuality we have no idea this would work. The brain is a combination of
electrical and chemical reactions.
> Theory of "No Choice"
> For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
> free will, or choice. We make decissions based on our past
> experiences. When you think about it the theory makes sense. If i took
> you out for a meal, and offered you a plate of a food you didnt like,
> and a plate of food you did like, then it makes sense you would always
> choose the same plate. This isnt because I have programed you, but
> because the experiences that you have had during your life have
> programmed you. The human brain can be programmed as can anything with
> a memory. It is just a matter of knowing how to feed it the
> experiences.
Well you should do this and make heaps of money...who needs the matrix!
> The brain of Neo is as human as everyone elses, it has just been fed
> the anomalies of the matrix that didnt fit. Thus the brain of Neo is
> infected with wierdness.
>
> Smith isnt the cause of the virus Neo is! Neo passed it on to Smith.
We don't know this...only the bros do
> The human brain (including mine and yours) gives out electrical
> magnetic pulses.
> EMP for short.
No mine gives out lightning!
> Neo's anomalies, that were passed on to Smith, and then that other
> dude (cant be bothered to look up) give him extra strong EMP.
>
> Obviously the virus duplicates in the Matrix, and in a real human
> brain it causes strong EMP.
You think he stopped the sentinels with EMP? Then why did they not drop
instantly to the ground and why did we not see a blue wave reminicent of the
previous EMP's we have seen?
Lurker
"KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
> Theory of "No Choice"
> For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
> free will, or choice.
According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no freewill,
and every point in space-time is predetermined. Basically, since every
point in space can be defined by three dimensions relative to any other
another point in the universe, it follows that every point in space-time can
also be defined this way. In other words, points in time are just as well
defined as points in space, and we are blobs of matter moving through
a predetermined set of snapshots in space-time. This is a very disturbing
thought. I prefer to believe that human beings have the freedom to choose
what will happen next, even though mathematics and logic may prove
otherwise.
Fortunately, there may be hope. According to relativity theory, it is
possible to
travel forward in time by moving very close to the speed of light. If I
travel at
near-light speed, time dilation will cause my clock to move slower. I can
leave
my point of origin and return home at a much later date. Other more recent
theories suggest that it may also be possible to move backward through time.
If matter crosses the event horizon of a black hole, there is a high
probability
that it will be crushed into a singularity. However, there is a small
probability
that it will not be crushed, and that it will emerge on the other side of a
wormhole at an earlier point in time. This is made mathematically possible
by
the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle: An anomoly in physics, and yet, not an
entirely unexpected one.
If it is possible to move both forward and backward through time, then there
exists a conflict with the notion that all points in space-time are
predetermined.
Like Neo, we may have an infinite number of choices ahead of us at each
moment,
and our consciousness leads us along the path from one moment to the next.
Graham
--
"Lurker" <lur...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kaXAa.1047055$S_4.1052990@rwcrnsc53...
>
> "KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Theory of "No Choice"
> > For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
> > free will, or choice.
>
> According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no freewill,
> and every point in space-time is predetermined. Basically, since every
> point in space can be defined by three dimensions relative to any other
> another point in the universe, it follows that every point in space-time
can
> also be defined this way. In other words, points in time are just as well
> defined as points in space, and we are blobs of matter moving through
> a predetermined set of snapshots in space-time. This is a very disturbing
> thought.
only if you believe this BS
gra
Bob Hobbler
> inside the Matrix. They may even be a debugging system for him. But when
> they switch into showing Neo, if the Architect is a machine, it is very
> likely that it thinks like a machine, maybe like one that plays chess. A
> machine would probably run all sorts of simulations to map out all possible
> responses from Neo, and from what it appears to be in the movie, this is
> what is happening. The screens show various simulations of Neo's responses
> working in real time (they have really fast computers in the future
> obviously), honing in on the response that Neo eventually speaks.
Did you notice the scene in the first Matrix movie, when Neo is about
to be interviewed by Smith for the first time, there is a brief scene
before the interview begins of Neo in the interrogation room repeated
on many monitors? There is no context given for the monitors, what are they?
I guess we now have to assume that they are part of the same system we
see in the architect's room in Reloaded.
The camera zooms in on one view and then we are in the room.
BH
Justin Bacon
>Did you notice the scene in the first Matrix movie, when Neo is about
>to be interviewed by Smith for the first time, there is a brief scene
>before the interview begins of Neo in the interrogation room repeated
>on many monitors? There is no context given for the monitors, what are they?
>I guess we now have to assume that they are part of the same system we
>see in the architect's room in Reloaded.
Now that's a nifty notion.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
KarlJ
> --
>
> "Lurker" <lur...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:kaXAa.1047055$S_4.1052990@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > "KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Theory of "No Choice"
> > > For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
> > > free will, or choice.
> >
> > According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no freewill,
> > and every point in space-time is predetermined. Basically, since every
> > point in space can be defined by three dimensions relative to any other
> > another point in the universe, it follows that every point in space-time
> can
> > also be defined this way. In other words, points in time are just as well
> > defined as points in space, and we are blobs of matter moving through
> > a predetermined set of snapshots in space-time. This is a very disturbing
> > thought.
>
> only if you believe this BS
>
> gra
>
>
> I prefer to believe that human beings have the freedom to choose
Basically we do, and we dont. The way I have always looked at it is
life is full of variables. The thing is that there is that many
variables that we can never (in practice) forcast the future. But I
thought it was common sense that if you could grab every variable used
in a descision, then you could forcast the result.
Is it just me? Or isnt it pretty obvious that Freewill is BS? T
his is something I have known for many years, but it certainly does
not disturb me.
good TODD, that's big
>"KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
>
>> Theory of "No Choice"
>> For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
>> free will, or choice.
>
>According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no freewill,
>and every point in space-time is predetermined. Basically, since every
>point in space can be defined by three dimensions relative to any other
>another point in the universe, it follows that every point in space-time can
>also be defined this way. In other words, points in time are just as well
>defined as points in space, and we are blobs of matter moving through
>a predetermined set of snapshots in space-time. This is a very disturbing
>thought. I prefer to believe that human beings have the freedom to choose
>what will happen next, even though mathematics and logic may prove
>otherwise.
The math doesn't prove any such thing.
Yes. All the points in space time exist simultaneously. But you
experience each point in a progressive order.
At point A, you really did decide of your own freewill to order the
ice cream without nuts. At point E, you really did decide to ask
Martha Honeymuffin to the Prom. At point J, you really did sell out of
your own freewill and decide to go into corporate law instead of
interpretive dance.
The fact that all the points exist at the same time doesn't negate the
fact that they exist as they do because of your decisions.
Cheers,
Todd "Sleep better tonight" McNeeley
.
email: delivermefromhell at yahoo dot com
good TODD, that's big
wrote:
>
>"Lurker" <lur...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:kaXAa.1047055$S_4.1052990@rwcrnsc53...
>>
>> "KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> > Theory of "No Choice"
>> > For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
>> > free will, or choice.
>>
>> According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no freewill,
>> and every point in space-time is predetermined. Basically, since every
>> point in space can be defined by three dimensions relative to any other
>> another point in the universe, it follows that every point in space-time
>can
>> also be defined this way. In other words, points in time are just as well
>> defined as points in space, and we are blobs of matter moving through
>> a predetermined set of snapshots in space-time. This is a very disturbing
>> thought.
>
>only if you believe this BS
Is it BS because you believe something different? Or is it BS because
you don't understand it?
Cheers,
Todd "Just wondering" McNeeley
Lurker
"good TODD, that's big" <n...@myserver.com> wrote in message
news:e0qgdvoosmtgaote9...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 May 2003 04:46:08 GMT, "Lurker" <lur...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >"KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >> Theory of "No Choice"
> >> For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
> >> free will, or choice.
> >
> >According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no
freewill,
> >and every point in space-time is predetermined.
>
>
> Yes. All the points in space time exist simultaneously. But you
> experience each point in a progressive order.
>
> fact that they exist as they do because of your decisions.
>
I understand the part about progressive order, but if all points DO exists
simultaneously, then that means all of my decisions have already been made.
I guess what I mean by freewill is having the ability to change my mind. I
can visualize different possible futures for myself, but if my decision has
already been made then why bother, or is "Why?" and irrelavant question?
EIther no one has told me, or no one knows.
Justin Bacon
>Basically we do, and we dont. The way I have always looked at it is
>life is full of variables. The thing is that there is that many
>variables that we can never (in practice) forcast the future. But I
>thought it was common sense that if you could grab every variable used
>in a descision, then you could forcast the result.
>Is it just me? Or isnt it pretty obvious that Freewill is BS? T
>his is something I have known for many years, but it certainly does
>not disturb me.
If the universe is Newtonian and mechanistic, then freewill is definitely BS.
If the universe is Heisenbergian and uncertain, then freewill may not be BS.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>I understand the part about progressive order, but if all points DO exists
>simultaneously, then that means all of my decisions have already been made.
>I guess what I mean by freewill is having the ability to change my mind. I
>can visualize different possible futures for myself, but if my decision has
>already been made then why bother, or is "Why?" and irrelavant question?
>EIther no one has told me, or no one knows.
The concept of freewill depends upon the concept of choice. The concept of
choice requires the passage of time.
If you choose to look at the theory that all points in space-time exist
simultaneously as meaning that there is no time, then the concept of choice
cannot exist and the concept of freewill becomes meaningless. If you look at
the same theory and look at it as meaning that there is time, then the concept
of choice can exist and freewill may exist.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Grafik
I'm not sure if I read it in this post and just missed it but I'm
pretty sure I saw it in another thread. I think Perephone as well as
being taken from the Greek Mythologies is also what is known as a
Succubus. (what was with the lipstick thing? when I saw her putting it
on, I was like "No Neo don't kiss her, her lipstick is poisioned, I
think perhaps it transfers emotions and thoughts from the kisser to
Personphene now though) I don't think the brothers would rip
charachters directly from other stories, instead they take base ideas
that are compariable but add certain things to it. I think the whol
Marigovian (sp?) thing, is in refrence to the undead and general
occult that is talked about by some charachter in reloaded, (I forget
who it is) who talks about those myths as being rogue programs.
Personally, I think that the "Real world" is still in the matrix for
various reasons that were mostly all stated before, but also I think
the fact that its still the matrix is hidden to many of the programs
such as the Oracle. Too many aspects about the "Real World" bug me,
for it to not be the matrix. For example, someone mentioned the year
2062, but in Zion they mention its been 100 years. Why would the
people think its been 100 years if Zion has been destroyed before in
reality? How many years have gone by since the Matrix started? 600?
1,000? I also don't believe that charachters lie in the movie to the
audiance, rather they lie to eachother if at all. However there needs
to be a reason for the lying, and the Architecht is not a charachter
who needs to lie to Neo.
something else to mention based on some previous posts, It says that
Morphious changed after he saw the Oracle, he was not born with his
faith. Instead he became a believer after seeing the miracles of the
Oracle. I think thats all for now.
Anyone know where I can get the Animatrix video clips?
Grafik
Graham
--
"good TODD, that's big" <n...@myserver.com> wrote in message
news:8gqgdv01cv4m0g8et...@4ax.com...
its on the same profound level as saying that where we are now is the result
of every decision we have ever made
gra
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> I understand the part about progressive order, but if all points DO exists
> simultaneously, then that means all of my decisions have already been made.
> I guess what I mean by freewill is having the ability to change my mind. I
> can visualize different possible futures for myself, but if my decision has
> already been made then why bother, or is "Why?" and irrelavant question?
> EIther no one has told me, or no one knows.
You can locate anything through extrapolation and triangulation in
three-dimensional space, but are those things where they are because
they were always there or did someone put them there? Or both?
Ultimately, I usually say that a difference that makes no difference is
no difference - so, the presence or absence of free will is, indeed,
irrelevant. It doesn't make a difference to us either way.
--
E. D. Brooks | kalima...@attbi.com | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Why, in my day, we used to fight the Lord of
Terror with nothing but a sharp stick!" -- www.reallifecomics.com
zadarum
that Neo (as the latest QA test/feedback mechanism for the Architect)
is designed to test for is Hope itself? Maybe the Architect set up
this scenario precisely because he knew that Neo would go to save
Trinity, and he thinks he needs whatever algorithm-refining
information he gets from that experience to increase the efficiency of
the Matrix code? The last part of their conversation opens up this
possibility:
**********************
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a
contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment
to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one.
While the others experienced this in a very general way, your
experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at
the
cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth,
wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly
revealed as both beginning, and end. . . . But we already know what
you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction,
the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed
specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is
already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going
to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
The Architect - Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest
weakness.
**********************
Hope is the problem that keeps forcing the Matrix to reset--it's the
hope of the .1% of the population that they can somehow overcome the
overwhelming odds against them that keeps them fighting, and creates
the Architect's need to include a pressure-release valve in the form
of Zion. If he can figure out how/why hope operates, and how to
thwart it, and incorporate that into the next version of the Matrix,
then he can close the .1% gap that eludes him.
Of course, to find out the answer, he's exposing himself to the
ultimate risk, that Neo will actually succeed in realizing his
immediate hopes, which will empower him to reach his ultimate hope--an
end to the dominion of the machines over the humans. Assuming that
the trilogy ends with the humans winning (it *is* a Hollywood
blockbuster, after all :), it will be interesting to see how the
Brothers W bring it all together, and find a way for us all to coexist
in peace. Can't wait til November . . .
Thanks again for all the provocative thoughts,
REM O-
McNeeley... cheaper, faster, better...
>
>"good TODD, that's big" <n...@myserver.com> wrote in message
>news:e0qgdvoosmtgaote9...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 28 May 2003 04:46:08 GMT, "Lurker" <lur...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >"KarlJ" <kjone...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >news:17d6a0cb.0305...@posting.google.com...
>> >
>> >> Theory of "No Choice"
>> >> For 2000 years plus, man has juggled with the theory that we dont have
>> >> free will, or choice.
>> >
>> >According to certain physical models of the universe, we have no
>freewill,
>> >and every point in space-time is predetermined.
>>
>> The math doesn't prove any such thing.
>>
>> Yes. All the points in space time exist simultaneously. But you
>> experience each point in a progressive order.
>>
>> The fact that all the points exist at the same time doesn't negate the
>> fact that they exist as they do because of your decisions.
>>
>
>I understand the part about progressive order, but if all points DO exists
>simultaneously, then that means all of my decisions have already been made.
Yes... but you made them.
>I guess what I mean by freewill is having the ability to change my mind.
You can... and in some cases, you did. The result of your decisions is
the events that occurred.
> I
>can visualize different possible futures for myself, but if my decision has
>already been made then why bother, or is "Why?" and irrelavant question?
>EIther no one has told me, or no one knows.
Hehe... I like that...
Cheers,
Todd "Did I take the red or the blue pill?" McNeeley
.
email: todd dot mcneeley at earthlink dot net
mariob
>>>
>>>I prefer to believe that human beings have the freedom to choose
>>
>>Basically we do, and we dont. The way I have always looked at it is
>>life is full of variables. The thing is that there is that many
>>variables that we can never (in practice) forcast the future. But I
>>thought it was common sense that if you could grab every variable used
>>in a descision, then you could forcast the result.
>>Is it just me? Or isnt it pretty obvious that Freewill is BS? T
>>his is something I have known for many years, but it certainly does
>>not disturb me.
>
> hmm did my last message go through? stupid back buttons
Freewill does exist; you could forecast the future if you know all
variables of a decision. However when dealing with anything where the
human mind is a variable, you can not accurately predict what a human
would do. i can give example if you like ut i hate making long post
after more than a few line grammer and punctuation is out the door
unless im at work
rapjo
Neo is
>23, (and note these are people *FROM* the Matrix, people who have no
idea
>what is going on in the real world), we can assume Neo would be 24.
Two
>women for every man. If it is then true that the One joins the newly
freed
>humans from the Matrix, why doesn't the One tell the real story so it
can be
>passed down? I can only guess history gets jumbled over time.
I remember a line from the first movie...something that Morpheus said
that was something like this, "It was said that there was a man, born
inside the Matrix, who freed the first of us." So there definately is
history, and it definately got jumbled.
Chris Graber
If this choice has been given 5 or 6 times before it probally happens
the same way. There was a Man who freed the first of us "IE the
error, aka NEO this time around". The man freed the first of them. .
.probally formed the council. I would say that old guy at the
begining, the head of the council, is the one who was "THE ONE".
I also think that explains why the council is so "FOR" the prophecy,
when the captains are like "ehhh, not sure".
Also, in Matrix 1 and 2 we have seen information (Helicoptor flying,
Judo, etc) downloaded into live people. If you can load Judo, then
why can't AGENT SMITH do something simmilar. So once again, Agent
smith in the real world proves nothing. . .
If both worlds were simulations? Why couldn't agent smith spread in
the Real world?
It's not like he plays by the rules in the matrix?
ra...@att.net (rapjo) wrote in message news:<84bec7b6.03061...@posting.google.com>...
Agent Nonzero
"Chris Graber" <gra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:49c1419d.03061...@posting.google.com...
If you had played the game 'enter the matrix' writen closely with the w.
brothers, the oracle tells niobe something about how neo's mind is now
trapped between the Matrix and the real world.
Chris Graber
don't know where that scene corresponds with the rest of the movie.
Shawn Hill
: I don't belive the Matrix in a matrix thing. . .
: If this choice has been given 5 or 6 times before it probally happens
: the same way. There was a Man who freed the first of us "IE the
: error, aka NEO this time around". The man freed the first of them. .
: .probally formed the council. I would say that old guy at the
: begining, the head of the council, is the one who was "THE ONE".
: I also think that explains why the council is so "FOR" the prophecy,
: when the captains are like "ehhh, not sure".
: Also, in Matrix 1 and 2 we have seen information (Helicoptor flying,
: Judo, etc) downloaded into live people. If you can load Judo, then
: why can't AGENT SMITH do something simmilar. So once again, Agent
: smith in the real world proves nothing. . .
: If both worlds were simulations? Why couldn't agent smith spread in
: the Real world?
: It's not like he plays by the rules in the matrix?
Plus, Neo being able to control the machines in TRW fits right into his
status as messiah/prophet/leader. He's riven with implants; perhaps they
are his conduit to non-Matrix machine control, just as they are his
conduit to the Matrix itself.
I did not, however, get the impression that the Councilor or anyone else
still survives from the first Matrix. They think they've only been
enslaved for 100 years, but The Architect talks about much more time
having passed. If they all die, and Zion is rebuilt from sleeping stock,
there may or may not be any genetic linkages from one world to the next.
And, after seeing the movie again, I'm starting to think that the "rogue
programs" aren't just Matrix generated software that has gone astray, but
more like ghosts: human analogs whose human counterparts are long-dead.
For some reason (maybe just sheer determination or will) they persist in
the Matrix without bodies outside it.
Certainly the Persephone/Merovingian relationship is a dark mirror of
Trinity/Neo. The Merovingian is all that's left of a previous iteration of
Neo, and he's an incredibly powerful empty husk of that one-time rebel,
just as Persephone has become a completely illusory parody of a woman. One
who knows what is false, and what is real.
:> I remember a line from the first movie...something that Morpheus said
:> that was something like this, "It was said that there was a man, born
:> inside the Matrix, who freed the first of us." So there definately is
:> history, and it definately got jumbled.
And who knows how long any of them really have been reborn outside the
Matrix and into Zion. I mean, they do, but we don't. Though I do imagine
the machines create or maintain new stock by cloning/insemenation of some
sort.
Shawn
Paul Schneider
> still survives from the first Matrix. They think they've only been
> enslaved for 100 years, but The Architect talks about much more time
> having passed. If they all die, and Zion is rebuilt from sleeping stock,
> there may or may not be any genetic linkages from one world to the next.
They said that Zion's population was 250,000. Could 24 people lead to
250K population in 100 years? I don't think so.
Paul