World Builders - China Mieville
indigoganesh
when I hit the line, "The sea throngs", which struck me as totally
pretentious. I am glad I didnt because I enjoyed the book.
However the universe built by Mr Meiville's in "The Scar" feels like
his archipelago built of boats - interesting but somewhat haphazard
and forced. There is very little feeling for how his universe got to
be the way it was. This is something I enjoy so much in the writing
of Vance, Crowley, and Wolfe.
One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
armour. This was an interesting and vivid image, but Mieville just
left it at that. There were no hints about how this ultra-clotting
blood informed the rest of their culture. I think he could spend more
time on backstory.
What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe, and who does it well?
Konrad Gaertner
>
> What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe,
Thinking through the consequences.
> and who does it well?
Steven Brust
Terry Pratchett (later Discworld)
Jo Walton
Tolkien
Others who at least tried:
George RR Martin
Robin Hobb
Robert Asprin
Robert Jordan
Garth Nix
--KG
David Bilek
You seem to be asking for more infodumps, which to me would be a very
large mistake for Mieville. Some people can get away with them.
Stephenson for example.
Mieville is writing a different kind of story and I think that too
much explanation would completely destroy the wonderful atmosphere he
has created. Do we *really* want Mieville to be more like Weber?
-David
David Bilek
>indigoganesh wrote:
>>
>> What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe,
>
>Thinking through the consequences.
>
>> and who does it well?
>
>Steven Brust
>Terry Pratchett (later Discworld)
>Jo Walton
>Tolkien
>
Boy, do we like different things.
World Builing is not something I'd list as a strength for any of the
above except for Tolkien. Brust and Walton? I love Brust, but it
certainly isn't for his world-building.
I'd list:
Gene Wolfe.
China Mieville.
George R. R. Martin.
C. J. Cherryh (though her prose itself occasionally leaves me cold.)
And so on.
-David
Keith Morrison
>>What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe, and who does it well?
>
> You seem to be asking for more infodumps, which to me would be a very
> large mistake for Mieville. Some people can get away with them.
> Stephenson for example.
>
> Mieville is writing a different kind of story and I think that too
> much explanation would completely destroy the wonderful atmosphere he
> has created. Do we *really* want Mieville to be more like Weber?
Sure. We could get Mieville infodumps on socialism/marxism and
throw them into a reactor with Weber's libertarian/conservative
infodumps. The resulting mutual annihilations would provide excess
energy for years.
Talk about a cheap way of getting to the stars. You have the Mieville-
Weber power plant for main propulsion and when you want extra thrust,
just drop in some Stirling or Pournelle. Man, light-speed in minutes,
I'd say.
--
Keith
Jim Cambias
<dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
> You seem to be asking for more infodumps, which to me would be a very
> large mistake for Mieville. Some people can get away with them.
> Stephenson for example.
>
> Mieville is writing a different kind of story and I think that too
> much explanation would completely destroy the wonderful atmosphere he
> has created. Do we *really* want Mieville to be more like Weber?
>
No, but he could be more like, say, Vance or Wolfe. With them the info
isn't dumped, merely hinted, but it's consistent and makes sense. With
Mieville I just get the feeling he's making it up as he goes along.
You don't have to explain something to death, so long as you understand it
yourself when writing the story.
Cambias
Htn963
>I recently finished The Scar. I nearly dropped the book in disgust
>when I hit the line, "The sea throngs", which struck me as totally
>pretentious.
Indeed. <Thud>
>I am glad I didnt because I enjoyed the book.
>
>However the universe built by Mr Meiville's in "The Scar" feels like
>his archipelago built of boats - interesting but somewhat haphazard
>and forced.
You don't say. Might he have been inspired by Neal Stephenson's refugee
armada in _Snow Crash_?
>There is very little feeling for how his universe got to
>be the way it was. This is something I enjoy so much in the writing
>of Vance, Crowley, and Wolfe.
>
>One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
>are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
>and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
>armour.
Ugh. If Mievielle is full of this then I'm not reading him, at least not
on a full stomach.
>This was an interesting and vivid image, but Mieville just
>left it at that. There were no hints about how this ultra-clotting
>blood informed the rest of their culture. I think he could spend more
>time on backstory.
>
>What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe,
Anything goes, I say, as long as it's (a) vivid (b)logical (c) consistent
(d) restrained (e) most important of all -- the author doesn't lose sight
that the world, however splendid it is, can never be more important than its
characters. I suspect your problem with Mievielle is (d). :)
>and who does it well?
For fantasy, I don't know of anyone else of comparable skills than the
ones you already mentioned.
For sci-f, try J.G. Ballard. His world-building -- or more accurately
world-destroying -- skill is exemplified by the End-of-the-World Quartet,
comprising of _The Wind From Nowhere_(1962); _The Drowned World (1962); _The
Burning World_(1964) and _The Crystal World_(1966). Although <spoilers>... the
protagonists in these books are passive, moody types who wants to merge
themselves into their respective blasted world rather than fight it, so they
arguably violate my condition (e).
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Sean O'Hara
> indigo...@yahoo.com (indigoganesh) wrote:
> >
> >One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
> >are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
> >and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
> >armour. This was an interesting and vivid image, but Mieville just
> >left it at that. There were no hints about how this ultra-clotting
> >blood informed the rest of their culture. I think he could spend more
> >time on backstory.
> >
> >What makes a good SF/Fantasy Universe, and who does it well?
>
> You seem to be asking for more infodumps, which to me would be a very
> large mistake for Mieville. Some people can get away with them.
> Stephenson for example.
>
world-building in a book. Just look at Dune -- Herbert was
parsimonious with his background details, but by the time you
get to the last page of the book, you have a good view of the
world.
--
Sean O'Hara
Fire3Sky
>No, but he could be more like, say, Vance or Wolfe. With them the info
>isn't dumped, merely hinted, but it's consistent and makes sense.
J.K. Rowling is good at this - I can't recall any info-dumps in the Harry
Potter books, but she creates a vivid world.
Fire3Sky
David Bilek
Maybe I mean something different by "world-building" that other
people, because to me J.K. Rowling's seems like a thin veneer of
interesting ideas over a gaping void of emptiness.
There's no "there" there.
The consummate world builder (besides Tolkien) for me would be Wolfe
in his New Sun stuff. You get a real sense of history and depth.
-David
Nancy Lebovitz
Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
>indigoganesh wrote:
>
>>One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
>>are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
>>and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
>>armour.
>
> Ugh. If Mievielle is full of this then I'm not reading him, at least not
>on a full stomach.
Consider yourself warned. Mieville has a remarkable fondness for secretions,
and the Scabmettlers are a mild example.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
Pete McCutchen
She uses an old trick, though. Because Harry is a stranger to that
world, he can ask all sorts of questions. When he gets his answer, we
do to.
--
Pete McCutchen
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Jon Meltzer <jmel...@pobox.com> wrote:
[topic drifts to Brust]
>The first few Vlad books are pure D&D-campaign in their world
>building. (And I like the books, too ...)
So I've heard (and it's quite believable, one can spot consequences of
game mechanics without even squinting too hard) but it must have been
a fairly odd type of D&D campaign.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Htn963
>In article <20030209184239...@mb-fe.news.cs.com>,
>Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
>>indigoganesh wrote:
>>
>>>One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
>>>are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
>>>and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
>>>armour.
>>
>> Ugh. If Mievielle is full of this then I'm not reading him, at least
>not
>>on a full stomach.
>
>Consider yourself warned. Mieville has a remarkable fondness for secretions,
>and the Scabmettlers are a mild example.
Yes, I've heard of Mieville's secretions but was hoping that that was one
of the more extreme examples. It looks like his prose needs antihistimine as
well as editing.
artyw
> In article <20030209184239...@mb-fe.news.cs.com>,
> Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
> >indigoganesh wrote:
> >
> >>One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
> >>are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
> >>and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
> >>armour.
> >
> > Ugh. If Mievielle is full of this then I'm not reading him, at least not
> >on a full stomach.
>
> Consider yourself warned. Mieville has a remarkable fondness for secretions,
> and the Scabmettlers are a mild example.
Well, I haven't read it yet, but the title is "The Scar". Perhaps he
could co-write a book with John Irving or Tim Powers and then there
would be all sorts of bloody body parts floating around.
Randy Money
> Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
>
>>In article <20030209184239...@mb-fe.news.cs.com>,
>>Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
>>
>>>indigoganesh wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers. They
>>>>are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient crust,
>>>>and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a type of
>>>>armour.
>>>
>>> Ugh. If Mievielle is full of this then I'm not reading him, at least
>>not on a full stomach.
>>
>>Consider yourself warned. Mieville has a remarkable fondness for secretions,
>>and the Scabmettlers are a mild example.
>
> Yes, I've heard of Mieville's secretions but was hoping that that was one
> of the more extreme examples. It looks like his prose needs antihistimine as
> well as editing.
>
> --
> Ht
Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with only
a few themes and tropes overlapping.
Randy M.
David Bilek
>On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:25:38 GMT, David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>>World Builing is not something I'd list as a strength for any of the
>>above except for Tolkien. Brust and Walton? I love Brust, but it
>>certainly isn't for his world-building.
>
>building. (And I like the books, too ...)
Yes, this is why I said that some people must be using a different
definitions of "world building" than I am familiar with. There are
good points about the Vlad books but a detailed, complex, interesting,
and original world is not one of them.
-David
Robert Whelan
It would have been less annoying if every character didn't exclaim
"My Goodness! You don't know about {fill in the blank}" before
providing the infodump.
Thomas Lindgren
Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
> Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
> writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
> sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
> only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
Mieville yet, though.)
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Randy Money
> Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
>
>
>>Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
>>writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
>>sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
>>only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
>
>
> Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
> comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
> exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
> fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
> Mieville yet, though.)
>
> Best,
> Thomas
First, I haven't read Mieville; I have read an interview or two and
reviews of his work. Some of this is guesswork.
There might be similar antecedents, but not necessarily following the
same path. As I recall, Mieville has also mentioned Mervyn Peake and M.
John Harrison as conscious influences on his work, a fairly literary
duo. Some of what I've heard he does also calls to mind the
inventiveness of Terry Jones' "Brazil" and "The Adventures of Baron
Munchausen" but also a sort of Weird Tales-ish (the '20s, '30s WT)
imagination, different from but not inconsistent with C.L. Moore or
Clark Ashton Smith.
Randy M.
Ryan Klippenstine
<***********@*****.***> wrote:
>
>Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
>
>> Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
>> writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
>> sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
>> only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
>
>Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
>comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
>exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
>fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
>Mieville yet, though.)
I can't quite parse what you're trying to say there, but the
"insect-headed women " bit is oddly prescient. _The Scar_ features a
race of human-mosquito hybrids, and the females vary between
grotesquely emaciated and cartoonishly voluptuous, depending on how
long it's been since they've last fed.
--
Ryan Klippenstine
Ryan Klippenstine
And, I can't believe I forgot this, the Khepri from _Perdido Street
Station_. They're a race of beetle-headed women (the males are
nonsentient grubs).
--
Ryan Klippenstine
Htn963
I like Weird Tales and Gothic writing, but even in those over-the-top
genres you'll find that the gross-out gags and horrific imageries are sparingly
used, at least in the best works. Weird Tales tales save their shock for the
er, shock ending, and Gothic writers by and large are a restrained lot when it
comes to doling out fluids.
Talking about scars, there is a spare and effective use of such an image
in a book I believe we're both admirers of, Guy Endore's _The Werewolf of
Paris_. <Spoilers for others> (From memory so some details may not be on
par): the protagonist's lover is uncovered in bed and her nude body is seen to
be filled all over with scars. She had been giving him her blood periodically
to satiate his wolf hunger.
Sean O'Hara
of magic and always having to ask Ron to explain things to him. I
think it's getting a little silly now that Harry's been in the
wizarding world for four-going-on-five years. I mean, isn't the
boy learning anything in his classes? Doesn't Hogwarts have an
Intro to the Wizarding World for muggle-born students?
--
Sean O'Hara
Michael S. Schiffer
in news:MPG.18b1f00a2...@news.cis.dfn.de:
>...
> Well, she uses the neophyte technique -- Harry's new to the
> world of magic and always having to ask Ron to explain things to
> him. I think it's getting a little silly now that Harry's been
> in the wizarding world for four-going-on-five years. I mean,
> isn't the boy learning anything in his classes? Doesn't Hogwarts
> have an Intro to the Wizarding World for muggle-born students?
No doubt. It also has _Hogwarts: A History_, which muggle-born
Hermione knows backwards and forwards, while Harry has as far as we
know never cracked the cover. The fact that Hermione is perfectly at
home in the wizarding world while Harry is an eternal neophyte says
more about their respective personalities than the resources
available to them. (As a librarian, I can assure you that there are
plenty of people in our own world who'd rather be told answers one at
a time than read a general introduction to a subject themselves. :-)
)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Sean O'Hara
> Jon Meltzer <jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >The first few Vlad books are pure D&D-campaign in their world
> >building. (And I like the books, too ...)
>
> Yes, this is why I said that some people must be using a different
> definitions of "world building" than I am familiar with. There are
> good points about the Vlad books but a detailed, complex, interesting,
> and original world is not one of them.
>
interesting. What's important is the sense that there's a world
beyond the story, that if you traveled to the edge of the map,
you'd find people there. The author doesn't have to tell us about
any of that, but it should inform the characters' actions.
--
Sean O'Hara
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<***********@*****.***> wrote:
>
>Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
>
>> Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
>> writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
>> sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
>> only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
>
>Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
>comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
>exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
>fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that.
You mean, like Bilal's _Gods in Chaos_ and stuff like that?
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
>
> > Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
> > writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
> > sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
> > only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
>
> Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
> comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
> exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
> fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
> Mieville yet, though.)
Enki Bilal. Wonderful author.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Michael Alan Chary
Harry's summers arespent with people who hate magic. Herm's parents are
probably a bit more supportive on a social level. Also, Harry's not
exactly been given lots of time to socialize purely: first year, okay,
second year, suspected Slytherine heir, so he's ostracized, third year,
suspected target, kept under guard, fourth year, again playing target.
--
"There's only one god / He is the sun god / Ra! - Ra! - Ra!"
--ancient Egyptian religious chant, attrib. to Robert Anton Wilson
"Woah. Edsger Dijkstra died. GOTO a better place, Eddie."
- Geoffrey Kinnel
Michael S. Schiffer
news:b29g70$ijo$1...@panix3.panix.com:
> In article <Xns931EA8ED366C...@130.133.1.4>,
> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
>>wrote in news:MPG.18b1f00a2...@news.cis.dfn.de:
>>>...
>>> Well, she uses the neophyte technique -- Harry's new to the
>>> world of magic and always having to ask Ron to explain things
>>> to him. I think it's getting a little silly now that Harry's
>>> been in the wizarding world for four-going-on-five years. I
>>> mean, isn't the boy learning anything in his classes? Doesn't
>>> Hogwarts have an Intro to the Wizarding World for muggle-born
>>> students?
>>No doubt. It also has _Hogwarts: A History_, which muggle-born
>>Hermione knows backwards and forwards, while Harry has as far as
>>we know never cracked the cover. The fact that Hermione is
>>perfectly at home in the wizarding world while Harry is an
>>eternal neophyte says more about their respective personalities
>>than the resources available to them.
>...
> Harry's summers arespent with people who hate magic.
And who often lock him in rooms or closets-- a perfect chance to
catch up on "Wizarding Society for Dummies". :-)
Herm's
> parents are probably a bit more supportive on a social level.
> Also, Harry's not exactly been given lots of time to socialize
> purely: first year, okay, second year, suspected Slytherine
> heir, so he's ostracized, third year, suspected target, kept
> under guard, fourth year, again playing target.
Both ostracized and guarded target leave him plenty of time for
reading, a pastime which is generally safer than wandering around
invisibly against the orders of the faculty. (His wanderings often
turned out to be necessary or even life-saving, but frequently due
to unforeseeable plot reasons. And every outing in the
invisibility cloak combined doesn't really eat into his reading
time that much.) He was perfectly able to go to the library most
of the time, and even when he wasn't Hermione would have been happy
to get him some books to read in his room.
He's just not a person who reads much for pleasure, or does book
research that isn't specifically goal-directed (and even that, he
mostly leaves to Hermione). So he learns about the world more
slowly, and mostly by asking questions of his small circle of
friends. As you say, he doesn't socialize all that deeply with
anyone else. He also, understandably, doesn't enjoy showing off
his ignorance to people he isn't close to, who are often
unsympathetic to newbies. All this, by no coincidence, helps out
the author by allowing her to pass information on to the readers at
the same time. (While letting her hold back information that any
wizard-born eight-year-old would know, because Harry doesn't yet
know enough to ask about it.)
Michael Alan Chary
I grew up in Gary, IN. I have had occasion to stick out like a sore thumb
at some of the more upper crust functions in life. I doubt there exist
books that remedy this. Field work is needed.
> Herm's
>> parents are probably a bit more supportive on a social level.
>> Also, Harry's not exactly been given lots of time to socialize
>> purely: first year, okay, second year, suspected Slytherine
>> heir, so he's ostracized, third year, suspected target, kept
>> under guard, fourth year, again playing target.
>
>Both ostracized and guarded target leave him plenty of time for
>reading, a pastime which is generally safer than wandering around
>invisibly against the orders of the faculty.
As you point out, he'd be suicidally insane to obey the orders of the
faculty at this point. They clearly have the combined common sense of the
former operators of First and Eclipse comics.
> (His wanderings often
>turned out to be necessary or even life-saving, but frequently due
>to unforeseeable plot reasons. And every outing in the
>invisibility cloak combined doesn't really eat into his reading
>time that much.) He was perfectly able to go to the library most
>of the time, and even when he wasn't Hermione would have been happy
>to get him some books to read in his room.
Hermione knows what "mudblood" means because she *is* one. I know white
children today who don't know what "spade" means, for instance. I doubt
these issues come up in writing. Hell, people are afraid to mention
Voldemort's name out loud. Not everything is written down.
>He's just not a person who reads much for pleasure, or does book
>research that isn't specifically goal-directed (and even that, he
>mostly leaves to Hermione). So he learns about the world more
>slowly, and mostly by asking questions of his small circle of
>friends. As you say, he doesn't socialize all that deeply with
>anyone else. He also, understandably, doesn't enjoy showing off
>his ignorance to people he isn't close to, who are often
>unsympathetic to newbies. All this, by no coincidence, helps out
>the author by allowing her to pass information on to the readers at
>the same time. (While letting her hold back information that any
>wizard-born eight-year-old would know, because Harry doesn't yet
>know enough to ask about it.)
One of my favorite shows was "The Pretender." I'd say 97% of my enjoyment
was Andrea Parker's physical appearance, and she was extremely beautiful,
but sometimes I'd change the channel because Jarod had been on the street
for four years and still didn't know what, say, Ice cream was. Yes, he'd
been isolated, but it didn't make any sense at this point.
The question for Harry is what does Harry not know, and how likely is it
that he'd have found out through reading? He didn't know what "mudblood"
meant, but it doesn't seem likely to have shown up in a book. The
Tri-wizard tournament? Sirus Black? These are not things he's likely to
find out about in some book. Sure he could read Hogwart's a History, but
he'd be dead by now if he did because he does actively need to save his
own life. He can just ask Hermione.
What Harry clearly needs to do now is move to Gary, or at least buy a some
Muggle firearms and take the fight to Voldemorte on his own Muggle terms.
Voldemorte probably won't even think of Muggle weapons. If Harry keeps
some sarin canisters and maybe places a few claymore mines
around the house, Voldemorte might have a rude awakening. (Yes, I'm still
thinking in Ultraviolet-what-can-modern-weapons-do terms.) Nine people
with one curse? How about a hundred people with one tablespoon. What he
needs is an anti-toxin spell and the rest is cake.
Voldemorte shouts "Avara..." and before he can get the second word out
he's dead because Harry's hit him with the some nerve toxin followed by a
couple rounds from a tech-9. This does require him to be somewhere other
than Britain, though. He should move to America. Probably Los Angeles.
Anyway, if Voldy takes him captive in front of all his followers again,
Harry can avoid the wand side effect by casting his spell on himself and
take out all his enemies with one canister of Saddam's finest.
Hogwart's year 9, Harry Potter and the Weapons of Mass Destruction.
He probably needs to take out Azkaban and the dementors first though.
Either a procket nuke or a lot of C4.
Niall McAuley
> Yes, I've heard of Mieville's secretions but was hoping that
> that was one of the more extreme examples.
Nope, think whole oil-slicks of pus. Mind you, I thought _The Scar_
was a good deal less gross than _Perdido Street Station_, possibly
because the action was at sea rather than in the city of New Crobuzon,
which is, seemingly, not an entirely clean and tidy place.
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]
Helgi Briem
<Niall....@eei.ericsson.es.invalid> wrote:
>"Htn963" <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20030210122043...@mb-mf.news.cs.com...
>> Yes, I've heard of Mieville's secretions but was hoping that
>> that was one of the more extreme examples.
>
>Nope, think whole oil-slicks of pus. Mind you, I thought _The Scar_
>was a good deal less gross than _Perdido Street Station_, possibly
>because the action was at sea
The sea seems to be able to rinse off a lot of pus.
>rather than in the city of New Crobuzon,
>which is, seemingly, not an entirely clean and tidy place.
That's an understatement. But it is part of the reason
I like Mieville's books so much. They are so.....organic
I guess is the word. I like fictional worlds that feel like
the accretion of centuries of living creatures and their
accumulated debris rather than something that fell off the
factory assembly line all shiny and squared off. Pus
is part of that. And other secretions. He does it well.
--
Regards, Helgi Briem
helgi AT decode DOT is
Randy Money
True, but more modern practicioners aren't as sparing. And sometimes
that's alright and sometimes too much of anything is too much.
> Talking about scars, there is a spare and effective use of such an image
> in a book I believe we're both admirers of, Guy Endore's _The Werewolf of
> Paris_. <Spoilers for others> (From memory so some details may not be on
> par): the protagonist's lover is uncovered in bed and her nude body is seen to
> be filled all over with scars. She had been giving him her blood periodically
> to satiate his wolf hunger.
>
> --
> Ht
Yes, we are admirerers, and it's another title I need to dig out and
reread since I'm going blank on this.
Randy M.
(maybe I should change the motto to, so little time, so many books to
reread)
Randy Money
> In article <Xns931EC02127B9...@130.133.1.4>,
> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
[...]
> Hogwart's year 9, Harry Potter and the Weapons of Mass Destruction.
> He probably needs to take out Azkaban and the dementors first though.
> Either a procket nuke or a lot of C4.
This was seriously funny. Thanks for the laugh.
One thing the discussion reminded me of is how much the relationship
between Harry, Ron and Hermione paralleled the relationship between
Buffy, Willow and Xander on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Rowlings' books
also share themes of loyalty, cooperation, caring and trust with the TV
show. One wonders if she arrived at this on her own -- entirely
possible; such threesomes aren't unheard of and the balance between
their characters isn't either -- of if she was a fan of the TV show and
it somehow worked into how she approached her stories.
Randy M.
Jesper Svedberg
Dal Dan (ada...@spamcop.net) says...
> Thomas Lindgren <***********@*****.***> wrote:
>
> > Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
> >
> > > Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
> > > writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
> > > sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
> > > only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
> >
> > Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
> > comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
> > exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
> > fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
> > Mieville yet, though.)
>
> Enki Bilal. Wonderful author.
And an even better artist. I'd rate him, together with Moebius, as the
greatest living comic book artist.
// Jesper Svedberg
Thomas Lindgren
ry...@westman.wave.ca (Ryan Klippenstine) writes:
Sorry, I meant (a) that those comics had features similar to those I
listed above, and (b) that the discussion of Mieville's work reminded
me of them. Got a bit carried away, I guess.
Thomas Lindgren
Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> writes:
> On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:00:03 GMT, Thomas Lindgren
> <***********@*****.***> wrote:
> >Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
> >comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
> >exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
> >fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that.
>
> You mean, like Bilal's _Gods in Chaos_ and stuff like that?
Yeah, that's probably it. A good example, at least; I seem to recall
there were others that had similar ingredients but were (a lot)
trashier.
Richard R. Hershberger
> What Harry clearly needs to do now is move to Gary, or at least buy a some
> Muggle firearms and take the fight to Voldemorte on his own Muggle terms.
> Voldemorte probably won't even think of Muggle weapons. If Harry keeps
> some sarin canisters and maybe places a few claymore mines
> around the house, Voldemorte might have a rude awakening. (Yes, I'm still
> thinking in Ultraviolet-what-can-modern-weapons-do terms.) Nine people
> with one curse? How about a hundred people with one tablespoon. What he
> needs is an anti-toxin spell and the rest is cake.
>
> Voldemorte shouts "Avara..." and before he can get the second word out
> he's dead because Harry's hit him with the some nerve toxin followed by a
> couple rounds from a tech-9. This does require him to be somewhere other
> than Britain, though. He should move to America. Probably Los Angeles.
>
> Anyway, if Voldy takes him captive in front of all his followers again,
> Harry can avoid the wand side effect by casting his spell on himself and
> take out all his enemies with one canister of Saddam's finest.
>
> Hogwart's year 9, Harry Potter and the Weapons of Mass Destruction.
> He probably needs to take out Azkaban and the dementors first though.
> Either a procket nuke or a lot of C4.
If I recall correctly (and I may not have: it has been a *long* time)
in "Wizards" Avatar accomplished the same end with a simple revolver.
Richard R. Hershberger
Lee
Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
>mch...@panix.com (Michael Alan Chary) wrote in message news:<b2a105$r39$1...@panix1.panix.com>...
>
>
>
>If I recall correctly (and I may not have: it has been a *long* time)
>in "Wizards" Avatar accomplished the same end with a simple revolver.
>
>Richard R. Hershberger
>
>
Egads its been a looooong time; but if I'm remembering properly, it was
something like this:
"Mother showed me a spell when you werent around. Its called a .45".
Scott Robinson
wrote:
[spoilers below]
>What Harry clearly needs to do now is move to Gary, or at least buy a some
>Muggle firearms and take the fight to Voldemorte on his own Muggle terms.
>Voldemorte probably won't even think of Muggle weapons. If Harry keeps
>some sarin canisters and maybe places a few claymore mines
>around the house, Voldemorte might have a rude awakening. (Yes, I'm still
>thinking in Ultraviolet-what-can-modern-weapons-do terms.) Nine people
>with one curse? How about a hundred people with one tablespoon. What he
>needs is an anti-toxin spell and the rest is cake.
>
>Voldemorte shouts "Avara..." and before he can get the second word out
>he's dead because Harry's hit him with the some nerve toxin followed by a
>couple rounds from a tech-9. This does require him to be somewhere other
>than Britain, though. He should move to America. Probably Los Angeles.
>
>Anyway, if Voldy takes him captive in front of all his followers again,
>Harry can avoid the wand side effect by casting his spell on himself and
>take out all his enemies with one canister of Saddam's finest.
>
>Hogwart's year 9, Harry Potter and the Weapons of Mass Destruction.
>He probably needs to take out Azkaban and the dementors first though.
>Either a procket nuke or a lot of C4.
[spoilers included]
Harry really isn't at home in either world, he has no real contacts
in the muggle world (how much firepower is available to broke british
minors anyway?). Hermione is most likely to figure this out. She is
at home in both worlds, and can figure out how to take ideas from one
side to the other (possible spoiler). If Sirus mentions something
about Azkaban having magically dense bars or something, she might just
figure out a charm to increase the likelyhood of chaos concentrated on
one bar (Fred and George could give hints), or she may have to
transmute lead into U235, although this may not be possible anymore.
Scott
Michael S. Schiffer
news:ri8a3vcfcghse5aai...@4ax.com:
> On 11 Feb 2003 00:16:53 -0500, mch...@panix.com (Michael Alan
> Chary) wrote:
>...
>>Hogwart's year 9, Harry Potter and the Weapons of Mass
>>Destruction. He probably needs to take out Azkaban and the
>>dementors first though. Either a procket nuke or a lot of C4.
> [spoilers included]
> Harry really isn't at home in either world, he has no real
> contacts
> in the muggle world (how much firepower is available to broke
> british minors anyway?).
Broke, he isn't, though converting his gold holdings into pounds,
euros, or dollars without stirring up trouble would at least require
some planning. However, the muggle world has no defense against
invisibility cloaks (assuming they extend to IR and such, which we
don't really know). Nukes would probably be difficult, but I suspect
that an invisibility cloak and a Nimbus 2000 are probably sufficient
to get just about any single portable weapon Harry really needs.
(And if not, there's Polyjuice potions, memory charms, and various
methods of teleportation that the muggle world has no wards against.)
Of course, doing any of that would risk getting him thrown out of
Hogwarts and/or running afoul of the Ministry of Magic. (Though as
the stakes rise, that's likely to be less of a concern.)
Hermione is most likely to figure this
> out. She is at home in both worlds, and can figure out how to
> take ideas from one side to the other (possible spoiler). If
> Sirus mentions something about Azkaban having magically dense
> bars or something, she might just figure out a charm to increase
> the likelyhood of chaos concentrated on one bar (Fred and George
> could give hints), or she may have to transmute lead into U235,
> although this may not be possible anymore.
I'm guessing that the wizarding world has a lot of defenses against
muggle weapons that run along the same lines as the electronics-
scrambling properties of Hogwarts and the fire-immunity charms used
by real witches during the witch-burning craze. Or at least, it will
if/when Rowling gets enough letters asking about these sorts of
tactics. :-) (If she wanted to go the Ultraviolet route, I think
we'd have seen signs of it by now.)
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Funny thing is, he's not French. He only lives and publishes there.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
The only place to be if you're into bande desinee. I think some of ours
moved to France with the death of Italian comics.
(Unfortunately, the death of Italian comics coincided with the death of
a lot of authors - Pratt, Magnus, Bonvi, Pazienza - and the
petrification of several others, including - shudder - Manara.)
indigoganesh
> In article <39dd4vo6mcvn8i962...@4ax.com>, David Bilek
> <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > You seem to be asking for more infodumps, which to me would be a very
> > large mistake for Mieville. Some people can get away with them.
> > Stephenson for example.
> >
> > Mieville is writing a different kind of story and I think that too
> > much explanation would completely destroy the wonderful atmosphere he
> > has created. Do we *really* want Mieville to be more like Weber?
> >
> No, but he could be more like, say, Vance or Wolfe. With them the info
> Mieville I just get the feeling he's making it up as he goes along.
Exactly.
> You don't have to explain something to death, so long as you understand it
> yourself when writing the story.
Mieville is an exciting talent but his writing would be richer if he
worked a bit more on the backstory.
Simon
Tom Scudder
> Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:49:37 +0100, jesv...@student.uu.se (Jesper
> > Svedberg) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <1fq6vgf.1rlcyds1xhauqyN%ada...@spamcop.net>, Anna Feruglio
> > >Dal Dan (ada...@spamcop.net) says...
> > >> Thomas Lindgren <***********@*****.***> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Randy Money <rbm...@spamblocklibrary.syr.edu> writes:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Or, since his precursors seem to include, maybe, a few Weird Tales
> > >> > > writers and maybe Gothic writers in general, he has a different
> > >> > > sensibility from the kinds of writers you find more palatable with
> > >> > > only a few themes and tropes overlapping.
> > >> >
> > >> > Actually, this discussion rather makes me think of those funky french
> > >> > comics (Metal Hurlant?), which I composite as insect-headed women with
> > >> > exaggerated human bodies (repulsive/sexy), dystopia, not so vaguely
> > >> > fascist police state, pondrous satire, all that. (Haven't read any
> > >> > Mieville yet, though.)
> > >>
> > >> Enki Bilal. Wonderful author.
> > >
> > >And an even better artist. I'd rate him, together with Moebius, as the
> > >greatest living comic book artist.
> >
> > Funny thing is, he's not French. He only lives and publishes there.
>
> The only place to be if you're into bande desinee. I think some of ours
> moved to France with the death of Italian comics.
Moving (further) off topic: do you have any recommendations for a good
place to start with bandes desinees? The only place in Beirut that
seems to stock many comix (<sign of cross>Virgin Megastore</sign of
cross>) has about two shelves of egglinch and about thirty of
French-language stuff.
The Metabarons stuff looks vaguely interesting from a flip-through.
William December Starr
Lee <l...@jamtoday.com> said:
>> If I recall correctly (and I may not have: it has been a *long*
>> time) in "Wizards" Avatar accomplished the same end with a simple
>> revolver.
>
> Egads its been a looooong time; but if I'm remembering properly, it
> was something like this:
>
> "Mother showed me a spell when you werent around. Its called a
> .45".
"Here's a trick that Mother showed me once when you weren't around,"
if quarter-century-old memory serves. There may have been a "little"
before "trick," and "once" might have been "one day." Heck, it might
even have been "Mom" rather than "Mother."
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
indigo...@yahoo.com (indigoganesh) said:
> One example of this is with the creatures called Scabmettlers.
> They are a race with blood which hardens quickly into a resilient
> crust, and so they cut themselves all over before battle to form a
> type of armour. This was an interesting and vivid image, but
> Mieville just left it at that. There were no hints about how this
> ultra-clotting blood informed the rest of their culture.
Really lousy Band-Aid sales.