Diving into _A Deepness in the Sky_[Spoilers]
Htn963
irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for me --
they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but were still
sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of a
B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold.
<rolls eyes>. Brunner did the bug-thing much better in _The Crucible of Time_
and that's still not saying a lot.
2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches -- even
their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture and am still not convinced that
their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather than a policy of "continued wary
cooperation and wait-and-see" be in their best interests. Even Hitler and his
Space Nazis reconstituted would not have jumped the gun so soon.
3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to give his
book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me...Pham Nuwen [Pham Nguyen]; Diem;
Vinh, etc. ISTR there was a short account of how the Vietnamese came to
dominate space trading in _Fire_, but the rendering is still inept. A culture
that retains its surname after thousands of years should still retain a good
amount of its root language and cultural norms, but I see none of it here.
They're basically Westerners given Asian names, and don't tell me of that Great
Melting Pot in the future that will inevitably has an American label on it.
4) Most disappointing of all, I expected to learn more in this PRE-qual
about the beginning of Pham's career, only to see starts with him as already a
mysterious hunted figure and ancient legend with all his Queng Ho glories
behind him. Would later parts of this book at least reveal some of his earlier
background in more details?
That's just a few of the major nits I have with Vinge's highly-acclaimed
last book so far. Now, I'm not necessarily looking for encouragements to
continue this book or warnings not to, just insights as to whether things will
be fleshed out in a halfway credible fashion in the last two-thirds. That is,
more depth and less whizz bang.
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Robert Sneddon
<htn...@cs.com> writes
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it as much
>irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
>but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
>the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_.
[Stuff elided]
You are not being told the truth in this book. You are being fed
information by several unreliable narrators, all of whom have differing
agendas. You will not discover this until near the end of the book, and
then...
but that would be a spoiler.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Ron Henry
news:20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com...
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it
as much
> irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring
concepts,
> but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less
convincing than
> the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
> 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book
for me --
> they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but
were still
> sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little
more than
> cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out
of a
> B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart
of gold.
> <rolls eyes>. Brunner did the bug-thing much better in _The Crucible
of Time_
> and that's still not saying a lot."
Since you appear to be fed up almost to the point of quitting...
[SPOILERS, of a conceptual if not plot-development sort, for Deepness in
the Sky, though HTN963 might want to read them rather than quit the
book...]
.
.
.
.
.
One of the (many many) topics that Vinge tackled in Fire... was the
near-impossibility of actually portraying something _truly alien_ except
as a very approximated translation into human-normal terms (vis. the
misunderstandings on the vast intragalactic Usenet system, those
sophisticated "translator" programs in inter-ship communications,
etc. -- much of the human/alien characters' understanding of each other
was based on incredibly sophisticated automation-mediated adaptations of
the incomprehensibly "alien" into comprehensible human terms.
Let's just say there is something akin to that going on in
Deepness... -- the "spiders" (even calling them "spiders" is quite
misleading, of course) really are quite alien, and you (and the other
characters in the story) are not getting a "transparent" or "realistic"
narrative (I suspect Vinge would maintain there could never be such a
thing) of the "spiders", and you'll eventually see the process/deception
revealed as part of the story. "Anthropormorphic... lifted straight out
of a B-grade war movie" is exactly what it is, deliberately so. I think
how this is depicted, in the light of the reasons why that are revealed
later, is actually one of the coolest aspects of the book.
Ron Henry
Justin Fang
Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches -- even
>their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
>evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture and am still not convinced that
Some of those details are revealed as the novel progresses.
> 4) Most disappointing of all, I expected to learn more in this PRE-qual
>about the beginning of Pham's career, only to see starts with him as already a
>mysterious hunted figure and ancient legend with all his Queng Ho glories
>behind him. Would later parts of this book at least reveal some of his earlier
>background in more details?
Oh, yes.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Niall McAuley
>lifted straight out of a B-grade 1940's war movie:
There is a Good Reason for this.
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches
This is a valid enough complaint.
> 3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to give his
> book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me
This didn't bother me.
> Would later parts of this book at least reveal some of his earlier
> background in more details?
Yes.
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]
Ethan Merritt
Niall McAuley <Niall....@eei.ericsson.es.invalid> wrote:
>"Htn963" <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com...
>>the "spiders" are little more than cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations
>>lifted straight out of a B-grade 1940's war movie:
>
>There is a Good Reason for this.
>
>> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches
>
>This is a valid enough complaint.
Not really, or at least not with respect to the
"red-headed female" being complained about.
Read on; all will be made clear (and nastier).
--
Ethan A Merritt
John Schilling
>"Htn963" <htn...@cs.com> wrote in message news:20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com...
>>the "spiders" are little more than cute, anthropomorphic bugs with
>>characterizations lifted straight out of a B-grade 1940's war movie:
>There is a Good Reason for this.
The problem is, a Good Reason that doesn't appear until the last third
of the book, does not influence the reading experience during the first
two thirds. _ADitS_ does suffer from the fact that even readers who
know that Vinge knows better find themselves reading, if not a grade-B
'40s war movie, grade-B '50s Sci-Fi. Several '50s book lengths worth
of grade-B '50s Sci-Fi, albeit interspersed with some good stuff with
the Qeng Ho.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Paul Vader
> 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for me --
>they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but were still
>sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
>cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of a
>B-grade 1940's war movie:
There's a *very* good reason for that, which you won't find out until
you're further along in the book. Give yourself points for paying
attention.
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches -- even
>their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
So? They're sorta kinda the villains of the piece.
> 3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to give his
>book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me...Pham Nuwen [Pham Nguyen]; Diem;
>dominate space trading in _Fire_, but the rendering is still inept. A culture
>that retains its surname after thousands of years should still retain a good
>amount of its root language and cultural norms, but I see none of it here.
Ask a person called 'Cooper' or 'Smith', whether this idea makes any sense
to them...
> 4) Most disappointing of all, I expected to learn more in this PRE-qual
>about the beginning of Pham's career, only to see starts with him as already a
>mysterious hunted figure and ancient legend with all his Queng Ho glories
>behind him. Would later parts of this book at least reveal some of his earlier
>background in more details?
Not really. It's not the story Vinge wanted to tell. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Sean O'Hara
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it as much
> irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
> but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
> the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
one, and in the end he addresses all your complaints except (3).
--
Sean O'Hara
Alex: A dwarf is someone who has disproportionately short arms
and legs.... A midget is still a dwarf but their arms and legs
are in proportion.
Gareth: So... what’s an elf? --The Office
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> said
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it as much
>irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
>but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
>the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
> but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
>cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of a
>B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold.
><rolls eyes>. Brunner did the bug-thing much better in _The Crucible of Time_
>and that's still not saying a lot.
Boy are you in for a surprise. More would be a spoiler.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Serg
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches -- even
> their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
> evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture and am still not convinced that
> their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather than a policy of "continued wary
> cooperation and wait-and-see" be in their best interests. Even Hitler and his
> Space Nazis reconstituted would not have jumped the gun so soon.
LOL Hitler did exactly that. He attacked Stalin not being ready for
serious war, while he could arguably get more from cooperation...
Jordan179
> irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
> but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
> the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
> 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for me --
> they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms,
> but were still
> sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
> cute, anthropomorphic bugs
They're neither as "cute" nor as "anthropomorphic" as they seem --
you're seeing it through the Focused translation.
> with characterizations lifted straight out of a
> B-grade 1940's war movie:
Their culture is fighting the equivalent of its World Wars, so this is
appropriate.
> there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>.
Why is that a personality-type which you wouldn't expect to see in an
alien culture? Military needs demand similar organizational types and
produce similar personality-types. This is cross-cultural on Earth at
least.
> Brunner did the bug-thing much better in
> _The Crucible of Time_
> and that's still not saying a lot.
I thought _Crucible of Time_ was a pretty good book.
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches -- even
> their redhead females.
Actually, SHE isn't ... but that would be a spoiler for you, wouldn't
it?
> I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
> evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture
There was an "emergency" of some sort, and an elite "emerged" to run
things. The elite is still running things, and hungrily conquering the
Galaxy. What's improbable about that?
> and am still not convinced that
> their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather than a policy of "continued wary
> cooperation and wait-and-see" be in their best interests.
Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
Dilemnas.
> Even Hitler and his
> Space Nazis reconstituted would not have jumped the gun so soon.
Hitler _did_, though -- he invaded Russia in 1941, before defeating
Britain.
> 3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to give his
> book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me...Pham Nuwen [Pham Nguyen]; Diem;
> Vinh, etc. ISTR there was a short account of how the Vietnamese came to
> dominate space trading in _Fire_, but the rendering is still inept.
> A culture
> that retains its surname after thousands of years should still retain a good
> amount of its root language and cultural norms,
Not necessarily. To take one example from popular culture, I did not
see "Daria Morgendorffer" either behaving like a pre-Islamic Persian
noblewoman nor like a German woodswoman. Surnames can long outlast the
cultures that produce them.
> but I see none of it here.
> They're basically Westerners given Asian names,
> and don't tell me of that Great
> Melting Pot in the future that will inevitably has an American label on it.
1) Where are you getting "American" from? The Queng Ho culture if
anything had a sort of medieval guild flavor to it.
2) We have no real idea what if any present-day nationality (if any)
triumphed and took Man to the stars, because the story takes place so
far in the future that humanity has risen and fallen in the Solar
System THREE times (that the characters KNOW OF)! Earth is mostly
unreliable legend to them. (Heck, maybe it WAS the Vietnamese!)
> 4) Most disappointing of all, I expected to learn more in this PRE-qual
> about the beginning of Pham's career,
> only to see starts with him as already a
> mysterious hunted figure and ancient legend with all his Queng Ho glories
> behind him.
> Would later parts of this book at least reveal some of his earlier
> background in more details?
Yes.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Andrea Leistra
>irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
>but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
>the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
> 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for me --
>they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but were still
>sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
>cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of a
>B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold.
There's a reason. A good one, but it's a spoiler.
I trusted Vinge enough to get past the first scene with the heavily
anthropomorphic spiders, and he came through.
--
Andrea Leistra
John S. Novak, III
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it as much
>irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring concepts,
>but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing than
>the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
As with almost everyone else, I can only claim that he addresses three
of your four points. The unaddressed point is, in my opinion, the
most trivial of them all, as well. The way he addresses them may or
may not work for you, but he definitely does address them.
It's my opinion that the book reads best unspoiled, so I'm reluctant
to just spell it out for you. I'd even advocate not reading the post
of the one person who did give a warning and then spoilers.
Unless you really *are* almost at the point of throwing the book
against the wall.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
David Allsopp
<j...@concentric.net> writes
>It's my opinion that the book reads best unspoiled, so I'm reluctant
>to just spell it out for you. I'd even advocate not reading the post
>of the one person who did give a warning and then spoilers.
>
>Unless you really *are* almost at the point of throwing the book
>against the wall.
Oh go on. I got to the "spider radio broadcast bit", put the book down
and never felt the urge to pick it up again, but I'd be interested in a
short summary of the last bit.
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
Riboflavin
> their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need, origin and
> evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture and am still not convinced that
> their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather than a policy of "continued wary
> cooperation and wait-and-see" be in their best interests. Even Hitler and his
> Space Nazis reconstituted would not have jumped the gun so soon.
>
Oh please. The Emergents couldn't have implemented a policy of
"continued wary coopertation", because there never was any genuine
cooperation. They sucker punched the Queng ho during the initial
negotiations in a preemtive strike, it just took some time to become
effective. And if you think that's some kind of Hitler and his Space
Nazis action, you either haven't gotten to or have glossed over (I
forget if it's a flashback or not) the Queng Ho's deliberations over
how to treat the Emergents - they were one vote away from opening an
attack at the earliest possible opportunity (I forget whether it was
without negotiations or using negotiations as a ruse).
While the Emergents have a lot of nasty personal habits, complaining
that they are moustache-twirling reconstituted Space Nazis for doing
what the good guys were one vote from doing (and which the viewpoint
good guys later say would have been the best decision) makes no sense.
--
Kevin Allegood
Matt Ruff
>
> Htn963 wrote:
>
>> there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>.
>
> Why is that a personality-type which you wouldn't expect to see in an
> alien culture?
Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
different tables of elements?
>> and am still not convinced that
>> their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather than a policy of "continued wary
>> cooperation and wait-and-see" be in their best interests.
>
> Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
> to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
> Dilemnas.
_Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
in their weapons inventory.
-- M. Ruff
Dan Swartzendruber
storyt...@worldnet.att.net says...
> > Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
> > to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
> > Dilemnas.
>
> _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
> close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
> to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
> in their weapons inventory.
Interesting turn of phrase, there! :)
Dan Swartzendruber
Even more amusing, said superhero is concealed by the Purloined Letter
trick...
Htn963
>In article <20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com>, Htn963 wrote:
>> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it as
>much
>>irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring
>concepts,
>>but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and less convincing
>than
>>the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Forex:
>
>As with almost everyone else, I can only claim that he addresses three
>of your four points. The unaddressed point is, in my opinion, the
>most trivial of them all, as well. The way he addresses them may or
>may not work for you, but he definitely does address them.
Well, I think they were all addressed. And I'm glad I asked, especially
about the bug-thing which was bugging me. I'll renew it from the library for
another term then, but Vinge was just being a little too clever for his own
good and almost lost a reader this time.
And I am aware of Hitler's Eastern campaign, which is why I made the point
to begin with. Think about it.
(Thank you for your input everyone.)
>It's my opinion that the book reads best unspoiled, so I'm reluctant
>to just spell it out for you. I'd even advocate not reading the post
>of the one person who did give a warning and then spoilers.
No, that's ok. Spoilers inevitably go with the territory whenever you ask
whether you should continue reading a book.
>Unless you really *are* almost at the point of throwing the book
>against the wall.
I don't do that. Bad for the walls.
Rodrick Su
news:20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com:
> I'm about a third of the way through this book and am finding it
> as much
> irritating as enjoyable. Vinge, as expected, is full of awe-inspiring
> concepts, but I find his narrative fleshing of them here cruder and
> less convincing than the earlier cum sequal _A Fire Upon the Deep_.
> Forex:
>
> 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book
> for me --
> they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but
> were still sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders"
> are little more than cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations
> lifted straight out of a B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a
> gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>. Brunner did the
> bug-thing much better in _The Crucible of Time_ and that's still not
> saying a lot.
There is a perfect reason for this. Just remember, you're not getting
their story from an unbias source.
> 2) The bad guys, the Emergents, should all sport black mustaches
> -- even
> their redhead females. I am still given little detail on the need,
> origin and evolution of their ruthless enslavement culture and am
> still not convinced that their prompt betrayal of the Queng Ho rather
> than a policy of "continued wary cooperation and wait-and-see" be in
> their best interests. Even Hitler and his Space Nazis reconstituted
> would not have jumped the gun so soon.
Ahm, that's their consistent method of operation. It has allow them to
conquered 3 star systems thus far.
> 3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to
> give his
> book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me...Pham Nuwen [Pham Nguyen];
> Diem; Vinh, etc. ISTR there was a short account of how the Vietnamese
> came to dominate space trading in _Fire_, but the rendering is still
> inept. A culture that retains its surname after thousands of years
> should still retain a good amount of its root language and cultural
> norms, but I see none of it here. They're basically Westerners given
> Asian names, and don't tell me of that Great Melting Pot in the future
> that will inevitably has an American label on it.
Pham might be of Vietnamese descendant. It is logical that an
colonization ship comprised mainly of Vietnamese will retain their
culture, given the distance away from other civilization. And of course,
they fall back into feudal society after their technological fall.
The Vinh are NOT Vietnamese, but of Indian decendant.
David Eppstein
Rodrick Su <r...@tigana.com> wrote:
> > 3) Vinge's rip-off and bastardization of Vietnamese surnames to
> > give his
> > book an "exotic" flavor are grating on me...Pham Nuwen [Pham Nguyen];
> > Diem; Vinh, etc. ISTR there was a short account of how the Vietnamese
> > came to dominate space trading in _Fire_, but the rendering is still
> > inept. A culture that retains its surname after thousands of years
> > should still retain a good amount of its root language and cultural
> > norms, but I see none of it here. They're basically Westerners given
> > Asian names, and don't tell me of that Great Melting Pot in the future
> > that will inevitably has an American label on it.
>
> Pham might be of Vietnamese descendant. It is logical that an
> colonization ship comprised mainly of Vietnamese will retain their
> culture, given the distance away from other civilization. And of course,
> they fall back into feudal society after their technological fall.
I don't know where Htn963 was posting from, but here in southern
California (and especially at UC Irvine) I see huge numbers of
westerners with Vietnamese names, so it didn't seem especially unlikely
or exotic.
> The Vinh are NOT Vietnamese, but of Indian decendant.
And the humans in _AFuTD_ are apparently of Norwegian descent.
--
David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science
Jordan179
> Jordan179 wrote:
> >
> > Htn963 wrote:
> >
> >> there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>.
> >
> > Why is that a personality-type which you wouldn't expect to see in an
> > alien culture?
>
> Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
> different tables of elements?
???
Is this a serious criticism or a joke? Different parts of the
Universe, of course, do _not_ have different tables of elements, and
you haven't explained why this was a personality type which you
wouldn't expect to see in an alien culture, if that was the point you
were trying to argue.
> > Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
> > to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
> > Dilemnas.
>
> _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
> close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
> to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
> in their weapons inventory.
Part of the general reason why evil's tendency towards aggression and
betrayal is "foolish" is that one doesn't always know for sure what a
potential conquest may have in its weapons inventory. So actually,
_Deepness_ is _very_ good evidence for that thesis.
(and it wasn't just the Qeng Ho who had the "unlisted superhero",
Sherkaner was basically a pulp-sf gadgeteer hero on the side of the
Spiders).
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Dana Crom
>In article <Xns9399E34344A...@216.40.30.67>,
> Rodrick Su <r...@tigana.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pham might be of Vietnamese descendant. It is logical that an
>> colonization ship comprised mainly of Vietnamese will retain their
>> culture, given the distance away from other civilization. And of course,
>> they fall back into feudal society after their technological fall.
>
>I don't know where Htn963 was posting from, but here in southern
>California (and especially at UC Irvine) I see huge numbers of
>westerners with Vietnamese names, so it didn't seem especially unlikely
>or exotic.
Do you mean "westerners (culturally) of Vietnamese descent" or "caucasians
with Vietnamese names"?
In context, I presume you mean the former - 2nd generation Vietnamese-
Americans.
And yes, after a few generations the name (and a handful of vague notions
of the culture, often quite erroneous) are about all that would be left.
As witness the cultural integrity of US born Irish, Italians, and Germans;
as we all know, they have much more in common with their cousins in their
ancestor's homeland than with other Americans. ;->
When in Ireland last year (on a business trip), several people I talked
to were slightly surprised I didn't claim I was "Irish" - apparently, the
5th generation Irish-American who tries to out-Irish the native born is
rather a stock character.
Not that I don't have a little Irish ancestry - but I have at least as much
from most of the countries of northwestern Europe. Do I also have to wear
lederhosen, grow tulips, sing "God Save the Queen" or Welsh hymns, learn
the bagpipes, make cuckoo clocks, and eat lutefisk at Christmas?
Despite the Heinz 57 ancestry and the watered-down Prussian name, I'm an
American - and that's a national identity only a couple of centuries old.
Family names are, likely, one of the more persistant cultural markers.
--
------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
Dana Crom / "Malt has done more than Milton can
da...@pacbell.net / To justify God's ways to man" A. E. Housman
San Jose, California / "Doubtless due to a wider audience" DLC
Tony Q.
> Matt Ruff <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> > Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
> > different tables of elements?
> Is this a serious criticism or a joke? Different parts of the
> Universe, of course, do _not_ have different tables of elements,
Proof?
David Silberstein
Dana Crom <da...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>When in Ireland last year (on a business trip), several people I talked
>to were slightly surprised I didn't claim I was "Irish" - apparently, the
>5th generation Irish-American who tries to out-Irish the native born is
>rather a stock character.
>
ObSF: De Camp & Pratt's /The Green Magician/, where a Polish cop
from Cleveland, Ohio manages to out-Irish a bard in Cuchulainn's
Ulster.
The authors stacked the deck there a bit, methinks.
David Silberstein
Tony Q. <tony....@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>Jordan179 <JSBass...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Matt Ruff <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
>> > Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
>> > different tables of elements?
[Google]
You mean in /Battlefield Earth/?
http://members.ams.chello.nl/mgormez/fun/daft.txt
>> Is this a serious criticism or a joke? Different parts of the
>> Universe, of course, do _not_ have different tables of elements,
>
>Proof?
>
Stellar, interstellar & galactic spectral analysis?
Andrew Plotkin
> Proof?
You mean, "Evidence?"
The evidence is that distant stars show the same kind of spectral
lines as near ones. The fine details of a spectrogram -- even of
"simple" hydrogen -- depend on the exact laws of subatomic physics,
and the exact mass and charge of protons, neutrons, and electrons.
The same laws govern how those particles conglomerate to form heavier
elements. If hydrogen works the same, everything works the same.
With regard to Vinge's books -- I assume that's how this question came
up -- one notes that hydrogen *does* work the same in every Zone.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Matt Ruff
>
> Matt Ruff wrote:
>
>> Jordan179 wrote:
>>
>>> Htn963 wrote:
>>>
>>>> there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>.
>>>
>>> Why is that a personality-type which you wouldn't expect to see in an
>>> alien culture?
>>
>> Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
>> different tables of elements?
>
> ???
>
> Is this a serious criticism or a joke?
To suggest that the hearts of soft-hearted aliens might be made from a
different element than gold? Guess.
>>> Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
>>> to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
>>> Dilemnas.
>>
>> _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
>> close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
>> to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
>> in their weapons inventory.
>
> Part of the general reason why evil's tendency towards aggression and
> betrayal is "foolish" is that one doesn't always know for sure what a
> potential conquest may have in its weapons inventory.
You could just as well argue that a tendency towards cooperation and
trust is foolish because you never know for sure when a potential trade
partner is planning to infect you with a mind-rotting virus over dinner.
Given that we all operate with less than perfect information, I don't
see why predators would be any less skilled than non-predators at
guessing what other people's intentions and capabilities are.
-- M. Ruff
how...@brazee.net
On 13-Jun-2003, Dan Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com> wrote:
> > _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
> > close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
> > to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
> > in their weapons inventory.
>
> Even more amusing, said superhero is concealed by the Purloined Letter
> trick...
Nice discussion here, at least for those of us who have read the book.
how...@brazee.net
On 14-Jun-2003, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
> >> Is this a serious criticism or a joke? Different parts of the
> >> Universe, of course, do _not_ have different tables of elements,
>
> > Proof?
>
> You mean, "Evidence?"
>
> The evidence is that distant stars show the same kind of spectral
> lines as near ones. The fine details of a spectrogram -- even of
> "simple" hydrogen -- depend on the exact laws of subatomic physics,
> and the exact mass and charge of protons, neutrons, and electrons.
> The same laws govern how those particles conglomerate to form heavier
> elements. If hydrogen works the same, everything works the same.
Tables of elements don't show spectral properties of the elements, the
tabular form show chemical properties. I have no doubt that these are
dependent upon each other, but how do I demonstrate this?
Dan Swartzendruber
how...@brazee.net says...
Pah. Let the others read it then! :)
Daniel Speyer
Sure, but why so many pages!
The spiders are *boring*. If they have a fascinating side that we
can't see, that answers only credibility, not literary quality. It's
clear that Vinge wasn't interested in them except as background, so he
should have left out their subplots, or told them briefly, or through
emergent beurocratic reports (giving as a chance to see how a
technologically superior culture observes a newly industrialized one
from orbit).
Personally, I was disappointed in Deepness, and FutD is still one of
my favorite books. The throwaway worlds that bespeckle the flashbacks
are beuitiful, but the rest of the book is weak. And Pham's final
analysis of Focus totally lacks imagination, which is way out of
character (I'd explain further, but that would be a spoiler).
Worth reading, IMHO, for the flashbacks if nothing else, but I
probably won't re-read it any time soon.
John Andrew Fairhurst
how...@brazee.net says...
> Tables of elements don't show spectral properties of the elements, the
> tabular form show chemical properties. I have no doubt that these are
> dependent upon each other, but how do I demonstrate this?
>
thanks to the quantum nature of spectra (?), which in turn places it in
the table of elements to give the chemical properties of the element
(hopefully that's approximately correct any way :-))
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/
Your One-Stop Site for Classic SF!
Updated for 2003 Publications
John Andrew Fairhurst
dsp...@wam.umd.edu says...
> The spiders are *boring*. If they have a fascinating side that we
> can't see, that answers only credibility, not literary quality. It's
> clear that Vinge wasn't interested in them except as background, so he
> should have left out their subplots, or told them briefly, or through
> emergent beurocratic reports (giving as a chance to see how a
> technologically superior culture observes a newly industrialized one
> from orbit).
>
I would say that this is a bad reading of the book. I was actually more
irritated by the interactions between the Emergents and the Quenq Ho.
It is definitely a hard read (I.e. something you have to concentrate on)
though!
Andrew Plotkin
Work out the energy levels of the electrons -- shells, orbitals, spin.
The spectral lines come straight out of this. And so do the chemical
properties, as you can see from the fact that the periodic table is
organized by electron shell.
<http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/periodic/stowetable.html>
Matt Ruff
>
> Dan Swartzendruber wrote:
>
>> Matt Ruff wrote:
>>
>>> _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
>>> close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
>>> to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
>>> in their weapons inventory.
>>
>> Even more amusing, said superhero is concealed by the Purloined Letter
>> trick...
>
> Nice discussion here, at least for those of us who have read the book.
I don't think we're giving anything away to those who haven't. Pham's
true identity isn't a secret to the reader, and _Deepness_ is the kind
of story where it's a given that the black hats are going to lose in the
end.
-- M. Ruff
Mark Atwood
>
> 2) We have no real idea what if any present-day nationality (if any)
> triumphed and took Man to the stars, because the story takes place so
> far in the future that humanity has risen and fallen in the Solar
> System THREE times (that the characters KNOW OF)! Earth is mostly
> unreliable legend to them. (Heck, maybe it WAS the Vietnamese!)
The United States did send a couple of cryosleep slowships out in the
mid 21C, as we see their colonies, only a few subjective human
generations later in the "The Blabber".
Of course, given the distance those ships went and how long they thus
must have spent in flight, it's entirely possible that it was another
historical cycle on Earth that created the colonies that became the
Queng Ho and Emergent spheres.
Especially since it looks like "The Blabber" took place quite some time
after "Deepness", which took place a LONG time after "Fire".
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right,
m...@pobox.com | people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Dan Swartzendruber
> JSBass...@yahoo.com (Jordan179) writes:
> >
> > 2) We have no real idea what if any present-day nationality (if any)
> > triumphed and took Man to the stars, because the story takes place so
> > far in the future that humanity has risen and fallen in the Solar
> > System THREE times (that the characters KNOW OF)! Earth is mostly
> > unreliable legend to them. (Heck, maybe it WAS the Vietnamese!)
>
> The United States did send a couple of cryosleep slowships out in the
> mid 21C, as we see their colonies, only a few subjective human
> generations later in the "The Blabber".
>
> Of course, given the distance those ships went and how long they thus
> must have spent in flight, it's entirely possible that it was another
> historical cycle on Earth that created the colonies that became the
> Queng Ho and Emergent spheres.
>
> Especially since it looks like "The Blabber" took place quite some time
> after "Deepness", which took place a LONG time after "Fire".
Uh.... Fire postdates Deepness, not the other way around.
Jordan179
While it is of course possible that there are different parts of this
Universe with different tables of elements, based upon what we
understand about the nature of physics, atomic physics, and chemistry
it is highly unlikely. It is quite possible that OTHER Universes
(within a multiversal structure) might have different laws of physics
and hence atomic chemistry, but _A Deepness In the Sky_ takes place
within the same _Galaxy_ as the Solar System.
(actually, there _does_ seem to be something funny going on at a
femtotechnic level in the Spiders' system -- the OnOff Star and the
Cavourite -- but that's another issue).
Furthermore, in reference to my original point, there is no particular
reason to assume that the differences in the Spiders' psychology
compared to Human psychology is such as to make the existence of
"crusty tough yet lovable old NCO's" improbable. Such persons
certainly exist in our own military establishments, both actual and
fictional.
Generally, one assumes that a condition is the same, unless it is
specifically stated to be different. I.e., I suspect that the Spiders
have annoying waiting lines for licenses at their bureaucratic
offices, etc.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Jordan179
> Here, how...@brazee.net wrote:
>
> > Tables of elements don't show spectral properties of the elements, the
> > tabular form show chemical properties. I have no doubt that these are
> > dependent upon each other, but how do I demonstrate this?
>
> Work out the energy levels of the electrons -- shells, orbitals, spin.
> The spectral lines come straight out of this. And so do the chemical
> properties, as you can see from the fact that the periodic table is
> organized by electron shell.
>
> <http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/periodic/stowetable.html>
ObSF: "Omnilingual," by H. Beam Piper, which hinges on this point precisely.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Jordan179
> Jordan179 wrote:
> >
> > Matt Ruff wrote:
> >
> >> Jordan179 wrote:
> >>
> >>> Htn963 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold. <rolls eyes>.
> >>>
> >>> Why is that a personality-type which you wouldn't expect to see in an
> >>> alien culture?
> >>
> >> Didn't L. Ron Hubbard say that different parts of the universe have
> >> different tables of elements?
> >
> > ???
> >
> > Is this a serious criticism or a joke?
>
> To suggest that the hearts of soft-hearted aliens might be made from a
> different element than gold? Guess.
D-oh!!!
I didn't get the pun the first time round! :D
Sincerely YOurs,
Jordan
Sean O'Hara
declared...
> alei...@ptah.u.arizona.edu (Andrea Leistra) wrote in message news:<bcbbvq$r8s$1...@oasis.ccit.arizona.edu>...
> > In article <20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com>,
> > Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
> >
> > > 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for me --
> > >they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but were still
> > >sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more than
> > >cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of a
> > >B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of gold.
> >
> > There's a reason. A good one, but it's a spoiler.
> >
> > I trusted Vinge enough to get past the first scene with the heavily
> > anthropomorphic spiders, and he came through.
>
> Sure, but why so many pages!
>
part of the resolution.
> The spiders are *boring*.
Well, to you perhaps. Apart from the kidnapping subplot, I enjoyed
the spiders more than the Tines.
> If they have a fascinating side that we
> can't see, that answers only credibility, not literary quality. It's
> clear that Vinge wasn't interested in them except as background, so he
> should have left out their subplots, or told them briefly, or through
> emergent beurocratic reports (giving as a chance to see how a
> technologically superior culture observes a newly industrialized one
> from orbit).
>
Whoa, whoa, whoa, did we read the same book? The spider portions
of the story were absolutely integral to the climax and resolution.
They reason they're written as they are is equally significant.
--
Sean O'Hara
Alex: A dwarf is someone who has disproportionately short arms
and legs.... A midget is still a dwarf but their arms and legs
are in proportion.
Gareth: So... what’s an elf? --The Office
Htn963
>In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Daniel Speyer
>declared...
>> alei...@ptah.u.arizona.edu (Andrea Leistra) wrote in message
>news:<bcbbvq$r8s$1...@oasis.ccit.arizona.edu>...
>> > In article <20030612092045...@mb-m21.news.cs.com>,
>> > Htn963 <htn...@cs.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > 1) The dog-like alien Tines was the best part of the prior book for
>me --
>> > >they were novel and complicated, both in alien and human terms, but were
>still
>> > >sympathetic; but here, your feature alien, the "spiders" are little more
>than
>> > >cute, anthropomorphic bugs with characterizations lifted straight out of
>a
>> > >B-grade 1940's war movie: there's even a gruff sergeant with a heart of
>gold.
>> >
>> > There's a reason. A good one, but it's a spoiler.
>> >
>> > I trusted Vinge enough to get past the first scene with the heavily
>> > anthropomorphic spiders, and he came through.
>>
>> Sure, but why so many pages!
>>
>Because the implications of what it all means is a pretty important
>part of the resolution.
The resolution was too abrupt, not enough dessert for the bland meal this
reader has to sit through.
I just finished the book this morning, people, and I agree that too many
pages were spent building up this Disneyesque version of the spiders. Even
though I knew there was a Good Reason for it, that still didn't relieve the
tediousness of wading through those pages. Vinge is a superlative idea man, on
a par with Asimov methinks, but, like him, he can be very clunky...unless that
was deliberate, but one can be deliberately inept for too long. I haven't been
this annoyed reading an sf novel since _Red Mars_.
>> The spiders are *boring*.
>
>Well, to you perhaps. Apart from the kidnapping subplot, I enjoyed
>the spiders more than the Tines.
Why? The way the spiders were portrayed *is* boring. And we never did
catch a glimpse on an "objective" basis what was uniquely "alien" about them,
like the Tines. How do we know that they are not *really* much different than
how Trixia saw them?
I find the spiders the weakest part of this book, which is very
disappointing since I loved the Tines; it seemed like Vinge just decided he
couldn't top them, gave up, and cop out.
For that, and other niggling reasons*, I rank this book substantially
lower than AFutD. However, sub-par Vinge is still above most others' high
watermarks. I'll save my detailed positive remarks for another time.
*Despite the length of the book, several threads were still not tied up
(notably Sherkener), and others were tied up too abruptly (like the spiders)
or seemed too contrived (Nau's end at Qiwi's hand).
Richard Horton
>Especially since it looks like "The Blabber" took place quite some time
>after "Deepness", which took place a LONG time after "Fire".
One assumes you reversed "Deepness" and "Fire" in the above sentence.
"The Blabber" is not necessarily canonical -- a naive reading might
suggest it was only a couple of decades after "Fire", but that doesn't
really hold up. I tend to agree with the oft-heard description of its
universe as a beta version of the "Fire" universe -- there are (many)
points of contact, but one can't really rigorously place the stories
on a timeline.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Nancy Lebovitz
Matt Ruff <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Jordan179 wrote:
> >
>>>> Evil is often self-defeating. Specifically, evil by definition tends
>>>> to foolishly choose "don't cooperate" when faced with Prisoner's
>>>> Dilemnas.
>>>
>>> _Deepness_ isn't good evidence for that thesis. The Emergents come very
>>> close to winning, after all, and what defeats them isn't their failure
>>> to cooperate, it's the fact that the Qeng Ho have an unlisted superhero
>>> in their weapons inventory.
>>
>> Part of the general reason why evil's tendency towards aggression and
>> betrayal is "foolish" is that one doesn't always know for sure what a
>> potential conquest may have in its weapons inventory.
>
>You could just as well argue that a tendency towards cooperation and
>trust is foolish because you never know for sure when a potential trade
>partner is planning to infect you with a mind-rotting virus over dinner.
>Given that we all operate with less than perfect information, I don't
>see why predators would be any less skilled than non-predators at
>guessing what other people's intentions and capabilities are.
I believe there's a stronger arguments for defaulting to cooperation--
fighting is costly. Even if you win, you may be worse off than if
you cooperated. That's the fundamental truth behind the prisoner's
dilemna.
I strongly recommend
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/sapolsky03/sapolsky_index.html
---it's got somewhat about why baboons can't cooperate. They can put
together excellent coalitions, but they don't have enough impulse
control to keep from attacking each other and destroying the coalitions.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
Daniel Silevitch
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
Get a better table?
Seriously, both the chemical properties and the spectral properties
depend on the configurations of the electron shells. Chemical
properties such as bond lengths, numbers of allowed bonds, magnetic
behavior, and so forth, depend on these configurations. The spectral
properties are a fairly direct way of measuring the energies associated
with the configurations; if the energies are the same here and 4
billion light years from here, then any behaviors which depend on the
level spacings and so forth are the same.
-dms
Ron Henry
> And we never did
> catch a glimpse on an "objective" basis what was uniquely "alien"
about them,
> like the Tines. How do we know that they are not *really* much
different than
> how Trixia saw them?
Sure we do. Re-read that scene close to the very end where (I think)
Pham and someone else (sorry, it's been years since I read the book now)
go down to the planet and visit the spider "parliament chambers". The
aliens are described "as they really appear". Their appearance, manner
of movement, and speech are all described as being very unnerving for
the humans.
Thing about the Tines is, despite the fact that Johanna (a stunned,
traumatized, child) euphemistically calls them "puppies" -- which is in
itself a kind of Trixia-like translation of the appearance of the Tines
for the benefit of the readers -- I recall that other "more objective"
descriptions of the Tines in the text of aFutD make them seem a lot more
like oddly-proportioned and strangely-eared _rats_. So, honestly, I
think there's a kind of similar effect going on with the depiction of
the aliens to the reader in the two books.
Ron Henry
David Bilek
>"Htn963" <htn...@cs.com> wrote,
>
>> And we never did
>> catch a glimpse on an "objective" basis what was uniquely "alien"
>about them,
>> like the Tines. How do we know that they are not *really* much
>different than
>> how Trixia saw them?
>
>Sure we do. Re-read that scene close to the very end where (I think)
>Pham and someone else (sorry, it's been years since I read the book now)
>go down to the planet and visit the spider "parliament chambers". The
>aliens are described "as they really appear". Their appearance, manner
>of movement, and speech are all described as being very unnerving for
>the humans.
>
I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like. If I saw
one of these guys, I'd be reaching for the missle launcher faster than
you could say "anthromorphization".
-David
Steinn Sigurdsson
> Tables of elements don't show spectral properties of the elements, the
> tabular form show chemical properties. I have no doubt that these are
> dependent upon each other, but how do I demonstrate this?
David Cowie
>
> Thing about the Tines is, despite the fact that Johanna (a stunned,
> traumatized, child) euphemistically calls them "puppies" -- which is in
> itself a kind of Trixia-like translation of the appearance of the Tines
> for the benefit of the readers -- I recall that other "more objective"
> descriptions of the Tines in the text of aFutD make them seem a lot more
> like oddly-proportioned and strangely-eared _rats_.
See the Polish cover of AFUTD:
http://www.proszynski.pl/ksiazki/images/okladki/duze/ogiennadotchlania.jpg
The pic's a little bit small, but they look more ratty than doggy.
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
David Cowie
>
> I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
> obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like. If I saw
> one of these guys, I'd be reaching for the missle launcher faster than
> you could say "anthromorphization".
>
Are these online anywhere? A quick bit of googling didn't find them.
David Silberstein
David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
>obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like. If I saw
>one of these guys, I'd be reaching for the missle launcher faster than
>you could say "anthromorphization".
>
I don't suppose you could scan it and put it online for the rest of
us to see?
Vinge's sketch of Jefi & Flenser:
http://www.sandm.co.uk/simon/sfjourns/Articles/Vernor_Vinge/Jefri/jefri.html
David Bilek
>In article <ciurev4ro1f73sf3o...@4ax.com>,
>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>
>>I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
>>obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like. If I saw
>>one of these guys, I'd be reaching for the missle launcher faster than
>>you could say "anthromorphization".
>>
>
>I don't suppose you could scan it and put it online for the rest of
>us to see?
>
I have a a 60k or so scan of one of the sketches (not great
resolution, but you get the idea...) but no web site. I can mail it
to you if you have somewhere you can put it online for others? I
don't want 5000 people emailing me asking for a copy.
There are 50 copies of the pen-and-ink sketches... they were laid in
to the 50 "limited edition" copies of _Deepness_ sold at Mysterious
Galaxies.
The only thing that makes the copy a limited edition is the sketch and
Vinge's signature next to a "Copy ___ of 50" on the first page.
-David
David Silberstein
David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>In article <ciurev4ro1f73sf3o...@4ax.com>,
>>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
>>>obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like.
>>
>
>resolution, but you get the idea...) but no web site. I can mail it
>to you if you have somewhere you can put it online for others?
Received. Thanks!
For everyone else, the sketch is at:
David Bilek
>In article <b2gsevoa0neb4t1pq...@4ax.com>,
>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>>In article <ciurev4ro1f73sf3o...@4ax.com>,
>>>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
>>>>obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like.
>>>
>>
>>I have a a 60k or so scan of one of the sketches (not great
>>resolution, but you get the idea...) but no web site. I can mail it
>>to you if you have somewhere you can put it online for others?
>
>Received. Thanks!
>
>For everyone else, the sketch is at:
>
> http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
Anything that looks like that doesn't deserve to live.
-David
Jordan179
> Sean O'Hara wrote:
> >Because the implications of what it all means is a pretty important
> >part of the resolution.
>
> The resolution was too abrupt, not enough dessert for the bland meal this
> reader has to sit through.
>
> I just finished the book this morning, people, and I agree that too many
> pages were spent building up this Disneyesque version of the spiders. Even
> though I knew there was a Good Reason for it, that still didn't relieve the
> tediousness of wading through those pages.
The "Disneyesque version" of the Spiders was partially accurate.
Sherkaner and Victory really existed, they really loved each other and
their children, etc. etc. The thing is, the undertones and motivations
of their emotions were not Human, they were Spider, and thus alien.
But the Focused translation wasn't showing this, partially because the
Focused (and, later Sherkaner himself) were actively pitching the
translation to arouse Human sympathies.
> Vinge is a superlative idea man, on
> a par with Asimov methinks, but, like him, he can be very clunky...unless that
> was deliberate, but one can be deliberately inept for too long. I haven't been
> this annoyed reading an sf novel since _Red Mars_.
I think that this was a deliberate buildup of tension. We sit through
about half the book watching the monstrous evil of the Emergency
triumphant over the likeable Qeng Ho and extending its foul tentacles
down to dominate the likeable (partially because of the slanted
translation) Spiders, and when everything comes together, and the good
Humans and Spiders finally join forces to trash the bad guys of both
species, it makes you want to cheer! It's the sort of scene that anime
could have conveyed very effectively, and I would LOVE to see a good
anime version of the novel :)
> Why? The way the spiders were portrayed *is* boring. And we never did
> catch a glimpse on an "objective" basis what was uniquely "alien" about them,
> like the Tines.
Oh, really? How about Sherkaner's fear, early in the book, that he
might get attacked and eaten by the feral young hicks? Given Spider
biology, this is a far more realistic fear than it would be for Humans
in the same situation.
> How do we know that they are not *really* much different than
> how Trixia saw them?
They're not THAT much different. It's a matter of tone rather than
substance, mostly.
> For that, and other niggling reasons*, I rank this book substantially
> lower than AFutD. However, sub-par Vinge is still above most others' high
> watermarks. I'll save my detailed positive remarks for another time.
> *Despite the length of the book, several threads were still not tied up
> (notably Sherkener), and others were tied up too abruptly (like the spiders)
> or seemed too contrived (Nau's end at Qiwi's hand).
Sherkaner's fate was left open because Vinge might want to write a
sequel, and because (given Spider biology) he might realistically have
survived. First you complain that Spiders are too humanlike, then you
complain at a plot point which derives from the differences! Make up
your mind!
It was perfectly _right_ for Qiwi to play the role she did, given the
role that she'd been forced into. Don't you realize that part of the
reason for her as a character was to humanize the otherwise abstract
evil of the Emergency, by showing what the Emergents considered
"amusing?"
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Mark Atwood
> David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
>
> Anything that looks like that doesn't deserve to live.
I'm sure that anything that grew up thinking that that bodyshape
was normal, would say the same thing about us.
scott_sanford
David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
> http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
roach at the posterior than I'd imagined, and what appears to be an even
band of eyes around the head rather than multiple differently configured
eyes, and of course you don't get a good view of the maw.
And Vinge writes well; it's HARD to keep that image in mind when you're
reading about Victory Smith or Sherkaner Underhill.
--
Scott Sanford <*> <*> <*> Antibot addresss: wyvern at agora dot rdrop dot com
GO/U h++ s++:+ g+ a- w++ v+/*/? C++ UB+/++ N++ K? !W M--(++) 5++ r+++ b+++ f?
Anime fans! Ask me about NOVA, the Northern Oregon & Vancouver Anime Society!
scott_sanford
Jordan179 <JSBass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I think that this was a deliberate buildup of tension. We sit through
>about half the book watching the monstrous evil of the Emergency
>triumphant over the likeable Qeng Ho and extending its foul tentacles
>down to dominate the likeable (partially because of the slanted
>translation) Spiders, and when everything comes together, and the good
>Humans and Spiders finally join forces to trash the bad guys of both
>species, it makes you want to cheer! It's the sort of scene that anime
>could have conveyed very effectively, and I would LOVE to see a good
>anime version of the novel :)
The human part can be done in a realistic style, maybe with CGI
spacecraft (which is popular these days), and beautiful spacescapes; the
Spider sequences can be done in an older more stylized art design,
probably with expressive pseudo-anthropomorphic Spiders (no less human
in feel than the Bugrom from El Hazard or that fish in Disney's Little
Mermaid). It would be beautiful.
Then at the end the humans get down to the planet and we see Spiders
rendered in the REALISTIC style...
Nancy Lebovitz
David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>In article <b2gsevoa0neb4t1pq...@4ax.com>,
>>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>In article <ciurev4ro1f73sf3o...@4ax.com>,
>>>>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I've got one of Vinge's sketches of the "Spiders". The name, for
>>>>>obvious reasons, doesn't reflect what they realy look like.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have a a 60k or so scan of one of the sketches (not great
>>>resolution, but you get the idea...) but no web site. I can mail it
>>>to you if you have somewhere you can put it online for others?
>>
>>Received. Thanks!
>>
>>For everyone else, the sketch is at:
>>
>> http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
Thanks for the link.
>Anything that looks like that doesn't deserve to live.
They just look like fairly ordinary arthropods to me, except for the
eyeband. If they've roughly human-sized, I don't think the legs would
be that delicate.
Vinge's a pretty good artist, just in the sense of having a nice control
of his lines and making his images interesting.
Sean O'Hara
> Sean O'Hara wrote:
>
> >In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Daniel Speyer
> >declared...
>
> >
> >Well, to you perhaps. Apart from the kidnapping subplot, I enjoyed
> >the spiders more than the Tines.
>
> Why?
Well, for one thing I'm sick and tired of stories where people from
High Tech Culture X crash on a primitive/wilderness planet and
have to rough it.
> The way the spiders were portrayed *is* boring.
No, *you* find the way the spiders were portrayed boring. Their
boringness is not an objective fact.
> And we never did
> catch a glimpse on an "objective" basis what was uniquely "alien" about them,
> like the Tines. How do we know that they are not *really* much different than
> how Trixia saw them?
>
We caught it several times at the end, when the guys crash on
the planet and then when the spiders eat dinner on the diamond
at the end.
> *Despite the length of the book, several threads were still not tied up
> (notably Sherkener),
What more do you need to know about Sherk? He went into a deepness.
He's probably dead. Some think he'll turn up alive, Elvis-like. We
don't need a concrete ending -- just decide which idea you prefer.
David Bilek
>In article <ijssevo1frg9pn6ec...@4ax.com>,
>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>For everyone else, the sketch is at:
>>>
>>> http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
>
>Thanks for the link.
>
>>Anything that looks like that doesn't deserve to live.
>
>They just look like fairly ordinary arthropods to me, except for the
>eyeband. If they've roughly human-sized, I don't think the legs would
>be that delicate.
>
Well, yes, but I don't think most arthropods deserve to live either.
It's Squashing City around here...
-David
Matt Ruff
>
> Htn963 wrote:
>
>> *Despite the length of the book, several threads were still not tied up
>> (notably Sherkener),
>
> What more do you need to know about Sherk? He went into a deepness.
> He's probably dead. Some think he'll turn up alive, Elvis-like.
I dunno, that smelled more like sequel bait than purposeful ambiguity.
-- M. Ruff
Sean O'Hara
Adventures of the Tines.
Craig Richardson
wrote:
Really? At worst, I catch-and-release them, but I'll certainly
tolerate one, especially a Daddy Longlegs, as they eat the really
objectionable insects that happen along.
"Sorta Ob"SF: Hambly's _The Silent Tower_
"We may have less time than we think." Antryg shoved his hands in
his jeans pockets and cocked his head to one side. "It all depends on
whether they're ticks or maggots, you see."
The remark made no sense to Caris, but Joanna went white with
horror. Feeling a little as he did when talking to his grandfather,
Caris demanded, "What difference does it make?"
The wizard shrugged. "The most attractive thing that can be said
about a tick," he responded, "is that it isn't going to turn into
anything else that might have wings."
--Craig
--
Managing the Devil Rays is something like competing on "Iron Chef",
and having Chairman Kaga reveal a huge ziggurat of lint.
Gary Huckabay, Baseball Prospectus Online, August 21, 2002
David Bilek
> David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>na...@unix1.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>>>In article <ijssevo1frg9pn6ec...@4ax.com>,
>>>David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>>>David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>For everyone else, the sketch is at:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.kithrup.com/~davids/Vinge-Arachna-Spiders.jpg
>>>
>>>Thanks for the link.
>>>
>>>>Anything that looks like that doesn't deserve to live.
>>>
>>>They just look like fairly ordinary arthropods to me, except for the
>>>eyeband. If they've roughly human-sized, I don't think the legs would
>>>be that delicate.
>>>
>>
>>Well, yes, but I don't think most arthropods deserve to live either.
>>It's Squashing City around here...
>
>Really? At worst, I catch-and-release them, but I'll certainly
>tolerate one, especially a Daddy Longlegs, as they eat the really
>objectionable insects that happen along.
>
They're creepy and crawly and we hates them. Yesss, hates them we
does. I'm probably not the best choice for leading a "first contact"
team if it ever comes to that.
-David
Jordan179
>
> Ooh! It'll never happen, but I can just SEE outtakes from this...
> The human part can be done in a realistic style, maybe with CGI
> spacecraft (which is popular these days), and beautiful spacescapes; the
> Spider sequences can be done in an older more stylized art design,
> probably with expressive pseudo-anthropomorphic Spiders (no less human
> in feel than the Bugrom from El Hazard or that fish in Disney's Little
> Mermaid). It would be beautiful.
> Then at the end the humans get down to the planet and we see Spiders
> rendered in the REALISTIC style...
One of the many ironies of the mutual alienness of Human and Spider is
this ...
The Spiders have constantly moving mouth-parts which we find
nauseously horrible.
Humans, however, because they only have "baby eyes" (one fixed pair)
and have hair sort of like Spider baby fur, the Spiders find CUTE.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Niall McAuley
news:nnvuev8t6g4bjg7a1...@4ax.com...
> They're creepy and crawly and we hates them. Yesss, hates them we
> does. I'm probably not the best choice for leading a "first contact"
> team if it ever comes to that.
Or a tour group to Australia, either.
They don't call them "Hunts man" spiders for nothing.
--
Niall [real address ends in net, not ten.invalid]
Niall McAuley
news:3EEF628...@worldnet.att.net...
> I dunno, that smelled more like sequel bait than purposeful ambiguity.
I doubt it, since at the rate Vinge writes novels he can scarcely
expect to get a sequel out before the Singularity eats his audience.
David Bilek
>"Matt Ruff" <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3EEF628...@worldnet.att.net...
>> I dunno, that smelled more like sequel bait than purposeful ambiguity.
>
>I doubt it, since at the rate Vinge writes novels he can scarcely
>expect to get a sequel out before the Singularity eats his audience.
Maybe he should start teaching again? Quitting to write full time
seems to have backfired.
-David
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> No more than Pham's Adventures in the Slow Zone or The Further
> Adventures of the Tines.
Well, more of Pham's adventures couldn't hurt. They'd probably start to
resemble some of the pulp-era SF, but so what? :)
--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kalima...@attbi.com | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Why, in my day, we used to fight the Lord of
Terror with nothing but a sharp stick!" -- www.reallifecomics.com
Richard Horton
<gnmc...@eircom.ten.invalid> wrote:
>"Matt Ruff" <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3EEF628...@worldnet.att.net...
>> I dunno, that smelled more like sequel bait than purposeful ambiguity.
>
>I doubt it, since at the rate Vinge writes novels he can scarcely
>expect to get a sequel out before the Singularity eats his audience.
I don't think it will be too unfair of me to mention that he has a
novella in the October Analog. Which I have read -- heh heh heh!
It's pretty good. Near future stuff, about uploads. Reads like part
of a novel, though it works OK as a standalone. "The Cookie Monster"
is the title.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Karl M Syring
> Sean O'Hara wrote:
>>
>> No more than Pham's Adventures in the Slow Zone or The Further
>> Adventures of the Tines.
>
> Well, more of Pham's adventures couldn't hurt. They'd probably start to
> resemble some of the pulp-era SF, but so what? :)
You could avoid that by introducing a further layer of the
"unreliable narrator", slowly revealing that the story is
told by the reconstructed Pham, thanks to the intervention
of transcendental intelligences. It even would have been
foreshadowed in the sequels.
Karl M. Syring
Mark Atwood
>
> I don't think it will be too unfair of me to mention that he has a
> novella in the October Analog. Which I have read -- heh heh heh!
> It's pretty good. Near future stuff, about uploads. Reads like part
> of a novel, though it works OK as a standalone. "The Cookie Monster"
> is the title.
He finished it!?
Yay!
He read the first part of it at last WorldCon...
Julie d'Aubigny
Has it? That may be a matter of whether or not he's getting paid enough.
If he is, no backfire.
Since I'd like to see more stuff, I'm hoping for that.
Julie d'Aubigny
True enough.
j...@jolomo.net
> David Bilek wrote:
>> Maybe he should start teaching again? Quitting to write full time
>> seems to have backfired.
> Has it? That may be a matter of whether or not he's getting paid enough.
> If he is, no backfire.
> Since I'd like to see more stuff, I'm hoping for that.
Neal Stephenson talked about this topic last week at Usenix.
His take on it was the day-job (whether it's carpentry, teaching,
lawyering, whatever) gives your mind time to wander and ends up
making you a better writer (or creator in his parlance).
He says he solved this problem by doing some construction work
and going on the road doing research.
Fun talk
--
Joe Morris
Live music in Atlanta http://jolomo.net/atlanta/shows.html
JoatSimeon
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
>His take on it was the day-job (whether it's carpentry, teaching, lawyering,
whatever) gives your mind time to wander and ends up making you a better writer
(or creator in his parlance).
-- depends on the job. If it takes any of the same 'thinking muscles' as
writing, then it severely restricts your output.
At least that was my experience of it.
Plus there's the simple matter of time. I write about 10 hours a day, usually,
counting research. If you're working 8 hours at something else, there's just
less time.
David Cowie
> Then at the end the humans get down to the planet and we see Spiders
> rendered in the REALISTIC style...
I just hope we get to see the subtitle "SMILING WARMLY AT THE AUDIENCE"
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
Carl Dershem
news:20030618160301...@mb-m11.aol.com:
I work a regular 8-5 job, plus occasional stints as a musician and painter
(and other things), which leaves me 2-3 hours a day, on average, to write.
My day job leves some time for cogitating, but also offers some significant
distractions.
While I'd like to thin I'd get moer writing done if that's all I had to do,
I have no concrete evidence that's true.
cd
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> I work a regular 8-5 job, plus occasional stints as a musician and painter
> (and other things), which leaves me 2-3 hours a day, on average, to write.
> My day job leves some time for cogitating, but also offers some significant
> distractions.
>
> While I'd like to thin I'd get moer writing done if that's all I had to do,
> I have no concrete evidence that's true.
My experiences are more akin to Stephen's above. That is, my work is
writing (or rather, a sort of overdone version of editing at the moment,
but not that far off). I usually do better when I have time to just let
stuff work itself out before I sit down to write, but I can get that by
walking around. If I work an eight hour day or go to school, I get less
actual writing done, even if I have more time to think about said
writing.
Tony Q.
> > > >> Is this a serious criticism or a joke? Different parts of the
> > > >> Universe, of course, do _not_ have different tables of elements,
> > > > Proof?
> > > You mean, "Evidence?"
Actually, I meant "Proof?" - the original comment was an assertion rather than a hypothesis.
> > > The evidence is that distant stars show the same kind of spectral
> > > lines as near ones.
Which only applies, of course, to that portion of the universe within observation range of us...
- Tony Q.