Characters whose intellect varies (for no reason)...
Johnny1A
fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
longer novels.
A few examples:
1. The Legion of Space by Jack Williamson. (early space opera)
John Starr-In the first book, he's a confused (with reason) but
otherwise capable and reasonably bright young military officer in a
_very_ nasty situation. He comes out OK in the end. His romantic
interest, Aladoree Anthar, is somewhat similar.
In the next book, set 20 years later, he's suddenly behaving rather
dimly, and showing an alarming genocidal streak! His now-wife
Aladoree is not genocidal, but her intellect does seem to have
degenerated notably in 20 years. In both books, though, the leader of
the Legion, Jay Kalam, remains capable and intelligent and humane.
In Book 3, Kalam is showing signs of intellect-degeneration, as well.
Only Giles Habibula remains fully himself throughout the series.
2. The Gripping Hand by N&P.
Rod Blaine and Sally Fowler-Blaine need to lay off whatever their
taking, it's cutting down their IQ!
3. The second _Uplift Trilogy_ by David Brin.
Sweet Mercy! Who performed a lobotomy on Gillian Baskin, and how did
they do it secretly?! Ditto T'sht and Olelo (fen characters).
4. It shows up so often in comics that it's almost impossible to
single out a solid example. Picking just one: Is Belldandy (AMG
manga from Japan) really that nice, or could it be that she's just
dim? You can make either case!
Shermanlee
Sea Wasp
> 4. It shows up so often in comics that it's almost impossible to
> single out a solid example. Picking just one: Is Belldandy (AMG
> manga from Japan) really that nice, or could it be that she's just
> dim? You can make either case!
Do not dis the Divine One, the Holy and Blessed Goddess, she of
golden beauty and ineffable grace, or surely you will be sent directly
to the Hells of Dragonball.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
David E. Siegel
> Am I the only one who sometimes gets annoyed when a major character in
> fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
> plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
> ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
> longer novels.
>
Algernon" or _Brian Wave_ where a change in IQ is part of the point of
the story, but rather for cases where a character alleged to be smart
acts foolishly or vice versa? Ofthen the answer is, "had the character
been smart, the book would end on page 20". Damon Knight called this
an "Idiot plot", i.e. a plot that only woks if soem or all the main
charactes are idiots. He later called Frederic Pohl's "The Midas
Plague" a "2nd order Idiot Plot" because it only works if everyone in
the society is, and has been for many years (generations?), a total
idiot, otherwise the story never even gets to page 1.
Unfortunately, Idiot plots are far too common.
-DES
James Nicoll
David E. Siegel <sie...@acm.org> wrote:
snip
>I assume that you are not thinking of cases like "Flowers for
>Algernon" or _Brian Wave_ where a change in IQ is part of the point of
>the story, but rather for cases where a character alleged to be smart
>acts foolishly or vice versa? Ofthen the answer is, "had the character
>been smart, the book would end on page 20". Damon Knight called this
>an "Idiot plot", i.e. a plot that only woks if soem or all the main
>charactes are idiots.
Eg: the movie _Broken Arrow_ which by all right should have
ended at the mine scene, either when the main character dropped both
bombs down the mine shaft (which he never thought of) or when he
learned that any code would arm the bombs, having armed one while
trying to disarm it. From a human trapped in mine next to a nuclear
explosion, two explosions are hardly worse than one so he should have
armed both.
--
"Frankly, Captain, I feel interstellar diplomacy is out of our
depth."
"Ah, hence the nuclear weapons."
Lots42
is a goof but he's demonstrated an alarming homicidal incompetence in one
specific episode.
SPOILERS.
*
**
**
**
Okay, it was the musical episode. Xander's been hanging around Sunnydale for
how long? And his life has been personally threatened time and again by spells
gone wrong. So what does he do? Conjures up a spell that makes people sing and
dance.
And sooner or later, die. Granted, he doesn't see any actual people die but he
knows it's probable he caused it and he knows Sunnydale skews magic towards
evil.
Not to mention the mindfuck of making people sing and dance against their will.
There was just so much -wrong- about that episode.
Peter Meilinger
>SPOILERS.
>*
>**
>**
>**
To be fair, he didn't know it would summon a demon, and he
didn't know it would cause the whole town to be affected.
Even given that, though, yeah, he was a complete idiot.
>There was just so much -wrong- about that episode.
Yep.
Pete
Randy Money
Yeah. In real life people never make the same mistake more than once or
twice.
Yup.
Randy M.
Mark Blunden
He was also desperate - feeling the strain in his relationship with Anya,
afraid that she might leave him, ready to do anything to help prevent that.
Plus, both Anya and Willow seem - at that point - to be dabbling
successfully in magic, so there's some justification for him thinking he can
get away with it.
Not that I'm going to go to great lengths to defend the logic of anyone's
actions in season 6, which seems to be entirely driven by the need to
emotionally manipulate the audience - and if that requires twisting the
characters' actions and motivations into interesting origami shapes, so be
it...
But I did like the musical episode.
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame
on me.
Mark Blunden
> 2. The Gripping Hand by N&P.
>
> Rod Blaine and Sally Fowler-Blaine need to lay off whatever their
> taking, it's cutting down their IQ!
Ooh, is that another Mote in God's Eye sequel...?
<Checks Amazon>
Oh, it's just 'The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye' by another name, then?
I know what you mean about characters' intelligence. One type of novel I
particularly dislike is when the reader is given all the answers early on,
and then they have to witness the characters being presented with the
evidence and totally failing to grasp it again and again. As I recall,
Melanie Rawn's third Dragon Prince novel is one such example - at times I
felt like screaming "Don't you get it! The answer's right there in front of
you! Just stop and *think* for a moment!"
--
Mark.
mark.b...@ntlworld.com
* Right now, I need aphorisms like I need holes in my heads
John M. Gamble
>an "Idiot plot", i.e. a plot that only woks if soem or all the main
James Blish. This is according to Damon Knight, who credited Blish
with the term.
>Unfortunately, Idiot plots are far too common.
Yup.
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Jonathan Hendry
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:al81ff$rrt$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
> Eg: the movie _Broken Arrow_ which by all right should have
> ended at the mine scene, either when the main character dropped both
> bombs down the mine shaft (which he never thought of) or when he
> learned that any code would arm the bombs, having armed one while
> trying to disarm it. From a human trapped in mine next to a nuclear
> explosion, two explosions are hardly worse than one so he should have
> armed both.
Unless one of them is a dud...
how...@brazee.net
otherwise.
Johnny1A
> Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > 4. It shows up so often in comics that it's almost impossible to
> > single out a solid example. Picking just one: Is Belldandy (AMG
> > manga from Japan) really that nice, or could it be that she's just
> > dim? You can make either case!
>
> Do not dis the Divine One, the Holy and Blessed Goddess, she of
> golden beauty and ineffable grace, or surely you will be sent directly
> to the Hells of Dragonball.
Don't blame me, blame her!
Even Urd once commented that Belldandy can sometimes be "singularly
clueless".
At first glance that might seem like the ice calling the snow cold,
but Urd is a lot brighter than she pretends, whereas there are times
when Bell seems utterly oblivious to what's going on around her.
At other times, she seems brilliant.
But one thing is very clear in the manga, all three of the Three
Sisters are very young, as their race goes, and none of them are as
smart or wise as others tend to credit them with being, or than they
themselves (Bell included) think they are. Witness the Lord of Terror
debacle.
Shermanlee
Jordan179
> fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
> plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
> ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
> longer novels.
>
> A few examples:
>
> 1. The Legion of Space by Jack Williamson. (early space opera)
<some snippage>
> In the next book, set 20 years later, he's suddenly behaving rather
> dimly, and showing an alarming genocidal streak! His now-wife
> Aladoree is not genocidal,
This is probably a Very Good Thing, if you remember what Aladoree knew
how to build out of stray bits of metal and a few wires ...
<more snippage>
> 2. The Gripping Hand by N&P.
>
> Rod Blaine and Sally Fowler-Blaine need to lay off whatever their
> taking, it's cutting down their IQ!
What did Rod and Sally do that was downright stupid, as opposed to
being the direct result of manipulation by Glenda?
> 4. It shows up so often in comics that it's almost impossible to
> single out a solid example. Picking just one: Is Belldandy (AMG
> manga from Japan) really that nice, or could it be that she's just
> dim? You can make either case!
In my opinion, Belldandy is both incredibly nice, and a bit dim for a
goddess.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Peter Meilinger
>Peter Meilinger wrote:
>> Lots42 <lot...@aol.comaol.com> wrote:
>>> Okay, it was the musical episode. Xander's been hanging around
>>> Sunnydale for how long? And his life has been personally threatened
>>> time and again by spells gone wrong. So what does he do? Conjures up
>>> a spell that makes people sing and dance.
>>> And sooner or later, die. Granted, he doesn't see any actual people
>>> die but he knows it's probable he caused it and he knows Sunnydale
>>> skews magic towards evil.
>>
>>> Not to mention the mindfuck of making people sing and dance against
>>> their will.
>>
>> To be fair, he didn't know it would summon a demon, and he
>> didn't know it would cause the whole town to be affected.
>>
>> Even given that, though, yeah, he was a complete idiot.
>He was also desperate - feeling the strain in his relationship with Anya,
See, that didn't come through for me all that much in the scenes
where Xander 'fesses up. Yeah, we know he was feeling the strain,
'cause lord knows the writers drove that point home with a hammer
only slightly smaller than the "Drugs are bad, mmmkay?" reserved
for Willow's storyline.
But when Xander said he was the one who cast the spell it seemed
to me like the writers realized SOMEONE had to have done it,
so they said, "Hell, have it be Xander." just to get the episode
over with.
>afraid that she might leave him, ready to do anything to help prevent that.
>Plus, both Anya and Willow seem - at that point - to be dabbling
>successfully in magic, so there's some justification for him thinking he can
>get away with it.
That would've worked for me, but it's not really what I got out
of watching the episode. As I recall, Xander said something to
the effect of, "The spell seemed harmless enough!"
No matter how desperate he was, Xander's not THAT dumb.
>Not that I'm going to go to great lengths to defend the logic of anyone's
>actions in season 6, which seems to be entirely driven by the need to
>emotionally manipulate the audience - and if that requires twisting the
>characters' actions and motivations into interesting origami shapes, so be
>it...
Exactly.
>But I did like the musical episode.
I liked it well enough. It started the godawful Buffy/Spike
storyline, though.
Pete
P. Korda
Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Am I the only one who sometimes gets annoyed when a major character in
>fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
>plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
>ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
>longer novels.
I like to call this phenomenon "Plot-Induced Stupidity." Sometimes I
can deal with it, like when genius Nero Wolfe ignores an obvious clue
which would have solved a case in 10 pages or less, in order to give
Archie Goodwin an opportunity to have adventures. Sometimes, it's so
egregious I can't stand it. For example, the entire plot of Tad
Williams' _Memory Sorrow and Thorn_ series hinges on a group case of
plot-induced stupidity. (It's a spoiler, so I'll put it at the end.)[1]
Here's a twist: usually, this sort of discrepancy happens when an
otherwise-intelligent character inexplicably acts like an idiot in
order to advance the plot. Can anybody think of examples of the
opposite case, when a normally stupid character displays sudden,
inexplicable competence, in order to advance the plot?
The only case I can think of off the top of my head is in
E. E. Smith's _Triplanetary_. The main female character is dumber than
a bag full of hammers, and much less useful. That is, except for one
scene where the hero needs some backup while he's in a firefight with
a bunch of alien soldiers, and she suddenly stops being a ninny, helps
him mow down the aliens, and goes right back to her normal
barely-sentient condition.
[1] Spoiler for Williams' _MS&T_: So the entire plot derives from a
misreading of a prophecy by the world's greatest thinkers. The true
meaning is painfully obvious, and if these supposedly-wise dudes had
figured it out at the beginning, we'd have been spared thousands of
pages of people getting lost in dark places. But no, nobody even
_considers_ that their initial interpretation might be a smidge off
the mark.
--
Pam Korda
kor2 @ midway.uchicago.edu
Home Page: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/
Book Log: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/booklog/
Lots42
>Can anybody think of examples of the
>opposite case, when a normally stupid character displays sudden,
>inexplicable competence, in order to advance the plot?
'The Last Roundup' by Christie Golden. It's a Star Trek book. Kirk gets trapped
in an awful situation with a complete ninny of a Starfleet Ensign. (They tried
to pass it off as saying uncontrollable emotional outbursts was normal for
their race). Anywho, most of the time she's an annoying, starry-eyed goober,
except for when she needs to be Super-Woman.
(Ninny, some guy and Scotty were facing down a sandstorm and Ninny was the one
to figure out 'Hey, let's hide in the some caves!').
Benjamin Adams
news:al8no1$1oa7o0$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de:
> I know what you mean about characters' intelligence. One type of novel
> I particularly dislike is when the reader is given all the answers
> early on, and then they have to witness the characters being presented
> with the evidence and totally failing to grasp it again and again. As
> I recall, Melanie Rawn's third Dragon Prince novel is one such example
> - at times I felt like screaming "Don't you get it! The answer's right
> there in front of you! Just stop and *think* for a moment!"
In Mercedes Lackey's _Burning Water_, there's actually a reason,
explicitly stated in the text, why the good guys flail around for most
of the book before figuring out the obvious: they're under the
influence of a mind-blocking spell.
-Ben Adams
David Allsopp
<mark.blun...@ntlworld.com> writes
>I know what you mean about characters' intelligence. One type of novel I
>particularly dislike is when the reader is given all the answers early on,
>and then they have to witness the characters being presented with the
>evidence and totally failing to grasp it again and again. As I recall,
>Melanie Rawn's third Dragon Prince novel is one such example - at times I
>felt like screaming "Don't you get it! The answer's right there in front of
>you! Just stop and *think* for a moment!"
Orson Scott Card's "Xenocide". It was *obvious* that the Piggies had
some special ritual or other, and no-one even bothered to ask them.
Actually, the Piggies were pretty stupid to not notice that they weren't
getting the usual effect and ask the humans about it, or even just
mention it in passing -- "We did <spoiler> two months ago now, so when
will <spoiler> start?" (And don't get me started on "Xenocide", but
that's authorial stupidity.)
I admit to not finishing Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow & Thorn"[1], but
I gather from fragments of rasfw discussion that the meaning of the
prophecy and location of the lost sword were as obvious as I thought.
[1] I decided that 1000 pages in a book was a bit much for 200 pages
worth of plot, and stopped after the first.
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
Abigail Ann Young
Me too. However, as far as the point about Xander's behaviour goes -- I'm
still not sure whether he really was telling the truth about casting the
spell, or just trying to save Dawn from the consequences of yet another
misdeed by claiming to have done something that he hadn't...
A.
--
Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/Records of Early English Drama/
Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada M5S 1K9
Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ abigai...@utoronto.ca
List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html>
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html> REED's home page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html> our theatre resource page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young> my home page
Peter Meilinger
>Mark Blunden wrote:
>> But I did like the musical episode.
>Me too. However, as far as the point about Xander's behaviour goes -- I'm
>still not sure whether he really was telling the truth about casting the
>spell, or just trying to save Dawn from the consequences of yet another
>misdeed by claiming to have done something that he hadn't...
I'd love it if that were the case. But since subtlety doesn't seem to
be in the Buffy writer's repertoire anymore, and since we've gone
a whole season now with nothing contradicting the idea that Xander
was the one to cast the spell, I think we're supposed to just accept
that he did it. I doubt very much it'll ever be mentioned again.
Of course, I was surprised when Xander mentioned it while talking
to Dawn about the vengeance wish she made, and the tone he
used could conceivably have been him reminding her she'd done
stupid things with magic before, so maybe I'm wrong and it
will eventually come out that Dawn cast the spell. It wouldn't
be the first time the show has waited a long time for the payoff
of a plot point.
What really, really bugged me about the idea that Xander cast
the spell was that the writers had Xander cast a spell that
unintentionally killed innocent people, and they plopped the
story down right smack dab in the middle of the interminable
plotline of Willow abusing magic, and absolutely no one
made any sort of connection between the two. Apparently
including the writers, since Xander's mistake was laughed
off by the end of the episode (even with a charred corpse
sharing the warehouse with them, as I recall), but Willow
couldn't use magic for anything around the same time
without someone jumping all over her. Talk about inconsistent
messages.
Pete
James Nicoll
Peter Meilinger <mell...@bu.edu> wrote:
>
>What really, really bugged me about the idea that Xander cast
>the spell was that the writers had Xander cast a spell that
>unintentionally killed innocent people, and they plopped the
>story down right smack dab in the middle of the interminable
>plotline of Willow abusing magic, and absolutely no one
>made any sort of connection between the two. Apparently
>including the writers, since Xander's mistake was laughed
>off by the end of the episode (even with a charred corpse
>sharing the warehouse with them, as I recall), but Willow
>couldn't use magic for anything around the same time
>without someone jumping all over her. Talk about inconsistent
>messages.
>
(In fact, seemed to be putting it on its head) The Season That Never
Happened seems to have the idea that powerful women are by definition
evil or at least terribly misguided. The only exception to this, as
far as I can tell, is Tara and Tara was never all that powerful. Plus
she grew up thinking power = evil and may have been especially careful
about trying avoid abusing what abilities she did have. Otherwise:
SPOILERS
Buffy: slayer, but at the cost of her humanity
Willow: magical addict, eventually went Dark Phoenix
Anya: chose to be a demon
Dawn: dabbles in magic, always with unfortunate results
It's part of the (Peter Pan)^N theme of TSTNH where not only is
it very difficult to grow up, it seems to be impossible, at least for the
principle characters. Xander lost ground and even Jonathan, who didn't
have much to lose, lost ground.
Lots42
>(even with a charred corpse
>sharing the warehouse with them, as I recall),
The corpse faded away moments after it appeared. Dawn was the only one who saw
it.
Richard R. Hershberger
>
> Here's a twist: usually, this sort of discrepancy happens when an
> otherwise-intelligent character inexplicably acts like an idiot in
> order to advance the plot. Can anybody think of examples of the
> opposite case, when a normally stupid character displays sudden,
> inexplicable competence, in order to advance the plot?
>
> The only case I can think of off the top of my head is in
> E. E. Smith's _Triplanetary_. The main female character is dumber than
> a bag full of hammers, and much less useful. That is, except for one
> scene where the hero needs some backup while he's in a firefight with
> a bunch of alien soldiers, and she suddenly stops being a ninny, helps
> him mow down the aliens, and goes right back to her normal
> barely-sentient condition.
This could be a hint that she isn't actually a ninny, but for some
reason chooses to act like one. It is hardly unheard of for women in
particular to do this. Or it could be the author not paying
attention. The former option is more interesting, the latter more
likely.
Peter Meilinger
Did it? That's odd. Never mind that bit, then.
Pete
Peter Meilinger
>>
> Although the series did not start off with this assumption
>(In fact, seemed to be putting it on its head) The Season That Never
>Happened seems to have the idea that powerful women are by definition
>evil or at least terribly misguided. The only exception to this, as
>far as I can tell, is Tara and Tara was never all that powerful. Plus
>she grew up thinking power = evil and may have been especially careful
>about trying avoid abusing what abilities she did have. Otherwise:
Plus, Tara is far, far too cute to be evil.
> SPOILERS
>
> Buffy: slayer, but at the cost of her humanity
> Willow: magical addict, eventually went Dark Phoenix
> Anya: chose to be a demon
> Dawn: dabbles in magic, always with unfortunate results
> It's part of the (Peter Pan)^N theme of TSTNH where not only is
>it very difficult to grow up, it seems to be impossible, at least for the
>principle characters. Xander lost ground
Xander didn't have to lose ground, but I agree he did. I think the
idea of him being afraid and calling off the wedding could have
worked, but the way it was presented didn't work at all for me.
> and even Jonathan, who didn't
>have much to lose, lost ground.
Good lord, yes. Jonathan went from the sweet bumbling twit who
worked a nasty spell that at least had him acting heroic to
a plain bumbling twit who actively conspired against the
woman who had saved his life on several occasions and
participated in the mind rape of an innocent woman. The
writers had to order special equipment to dig down as far
as they sent him.
One of the other themes of the past couple of seasons on
the show seems to be that no one but your friends matters.
That definitely plays into the immaturity theme, too. I'm
still not at all sure if the writers realize what messages
the various episodes convey, or if they think they're still
doing a bang-up job.
Pete
Jordan179
>
> otherwise-intelligent character inexplicably acts like an idiot in
> order to advance the plot. Can anybody think of examples of the
> opposite case, when a normally stupid character displays sudden,
> inexplicable competence, in order to advance the plot?
>
> The only case I can think of off the top of my head is in
> E. E. Smith's _Triplanetary_. The main female character is dumber than
> a bag full of hammers, and much less useful. That is, except for one
> scene where the hero needs some backup while he's in a firefight with
> a bunch of alien soldiers, and she suddenly stops being a ninny, helps
> him mow down the aliens, and goes right back to her normal
> barely-sentient condition.
Why do you believe Clio Marsden to be "dumber than a bag full of
hammers?" While it's true that she doesn't start with a lot of skills
directly useful to Conway Costigan in the situation they find
themselves in, it's because she was raised to be a rich socialite, and
"the situation they find themselves in" is an utterly fantastic series
of perils. Clio bears herself with courage, dignity, and good sense
through most of what happens - yes, she's scared sometimes, but you'd
be frightened too, in her situation.
Conway Costigan, on the other hand, is a top Triplanetary agent, and
as such has been extensively trained to deal with improbable and
dangerous circumstances. It's not that he's fantastically smarter than
her: I'm sure that when E. E. "Doc" Smith temporarily merges his soul
with Jane Austen to produce a witty novel of manners about the society
of the era, we'll see that Clio's far better at maneuvering her way
through dinner-party intrigues than is her husband. :-)
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Matt Austern
> In article <al8no1$1oa7o0$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>, Mark Blunden
> <mark.blun...@ntlworld.com> writes
> >I know what you mean about characters' intelligence. One type of novel I
> >particularly dislike is when the reader is given all the answers early on,
> >and then they have to witness the characters being presented with the
> >evidence and totally failing to grasp it again and again. As I recall,
> >Melanie Rawn's third Dragon Prince novel is one such example - at times I
> >felt like screaming "Don't you get it! The answer's right there in front of
> >you! Just stop and *think* for a moment!"
>
> Orson Scott Card's "Xenocide". It was *obvious* that the Piggies had
> some special ritual or other, and no-one even bothered to ask them.
> Actually, the Piggies were pretty stupid to not notice that they weren't
> getting the usual effect and ask the humans about it, or even just
> mention it in passing -- "We did <spoiler> two months ago now, so when
> will <spoiler> start?"
You mean _Speaker for the Dead_, right?
That one seemed like a whole galaxy full of plot-induced stupids.
Sea Wasp
> Me too. However, as far as the point about Xander's behaviour goes -- I'm
> still not sure whether he really was telling the truth about casting the
> spell, or just trying to save Dawn from the consequences of yet another
> misdeed by claiming to have done something that he hadn't...
And it's not as though there isn't plenty of precedent for Xander
doing something impulsively stupid like that.
"I can't believe you'd be fool enough to do something like that!"
"Believe me, Giles, I'm TWICE the fool enough to do something like
that!"
Xander redeemed himself for all the Loser Things he's ever done,
though, at the end of the last season. Most of that season was a total
loss, but I'll buy the last DVD for that one episode alone.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
David Silberstein
Or men:
One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in
her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish
between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off
their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be
bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him,
pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that
he actually didn't understand what was going on, and really
being genuinely stupid. He was renowned for being amazingly
clever and quite clearly was so - but not all the time,
which obviously worried him, hence the act. He preferred
people to be puzzled rather than contemptuous.
This above all appeared to Trillian to be genuinely stupid,
but she could no longer be bothered to argue about it.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, by Douglas Adams.
I think Heinlein wrote about Lazarus Long feigning stupidity
in order to get people to underestimate him.
Keith Morrison
Thing is, that doesn't mean much. He saved everyone everyone (without
them knowing about it) a few seasons earlier, and was mature enough not
to brag about it, but the writers still turned him into a dipstick. I'm
not holding my breath for them to do better this time just because he
saved the world.
--
Keith
Johnny1A
> ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote in message news:<2DVd9.285$a5.4...@news.uchicago.edu>...
> Why do you believe Clio Marsden to be "dumber than a bag full of
> hammers?" While it's true that she doesn't start with a lot of skills
> directly useful to Conway Costigan in the situation they find
> themselves in, it's because she was raised to be a rich socialite, and
> "the situation they find themselves in" is an utterly fantastic series
> of perils. Clio bears herself with courage, dignity, and good sense
> through most of what happens - yes, she's scared sometimes, but you'd
> be frightened too, in her situation.
>
> Conway Costigan, on the other hand, is a top Triplanetary agent, and
> as such has been extensively trained to deal with improbable and
> dangerous circumstances. It's not that he's fantastically smarter than
> her: I'm sure that when E. E. "Doc" Smith temporarily merges his soul
> with Jane Austen to produce a witty novel of manners about the society
> of the era, we'll see that Clio's far better at maneuvering her way
> through dinner-party intrigues than is her husband. :-)
>
> Sincerely Yours,
> Jordan
Actually, that would happen, too.
A Lensman is both a military officer and a diplomat, especially the
'generalist' Lensmen. (There were lawyer-Lensmen and the like
specialists, but even they might suddenly find themselves faced with
situations out of their specialty, since there were _never_ enough
Lensmen to fulfill the Patrol's needs).
I suspect that a very funny half-spoof, half-serious novella could
have been written about Roderick Kinnison's first State Dinner as
President of North America, or the first time Conway Costigan had to
infiltrate upper crust society while tracking down a zwilnick
connection or a traitor. Note that in this early stage, they wouldn't
know all the tricks to hide a Lens, so odds are a lot of the time
they'd be effectively psi-blind...
Why do I suddenly see Jack Kinnisson, Conway, Mase Northrop, etc,
sitting around the Costigan kitchen table while Clio moans, "No, no,
not THAT fork, it'll give you away in an instant..."
It sounds trivial, but for undercover work it's deadly (literally)
serious stuff, getting the _little_ things right.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
> sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote in message news:<b3030854.02090...@posting.google.com>...
> > Am I the only one who sometimes gets annoyed when a major character in
> > fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
> > plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
> > ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
> > longer novels.
> >
> > A few examples:
> >
> > 1. The Legion of Space by Jack Williamson. (early space opera)
>
> <some snippage>
>
> > In the next book, set 20 years later, he's suddenly behaving rather
> > dimly, and showing an alarming genocidal streak! His now-wife
> > Aladoree is not genocidal,
>
> This is probably a Very Good Thing, if you remember what Aladoree knew
> how to build out of stray bits of metal and a few wires ...
True, she hasn't developed that murderous paranoia her mate has, but
she's become incredibly _spineless_, alarmingly so. Let's say that
the System's scientific community has concluded that star ABC 39230, a
G0 yellow dwarf, is host to a civilization technologically comparable
to that of Sol. Note that at this stage the heroes had access only to
extremely limited and risky short-range interstellar flight, so they
couldn't investigate this hypothetical system closely.
I have the nasty feeling that John could probably set out to talk her
into annihilating said star and society on the grounds that ALL aliens
are necessarily enemies. John basically _said_ as much in the second
novel, and though he turns out to be right in that particular case,
his correct result is a lucky stroke based on erroneous reasoning and
shaky assumptions.
I have a nasty suspicion that the newly spineless Aladoree would
eventually say something like, "Yes, dear," and start putting the
pieces together...I just hope Giles happens to be in the immediate
area at the time. I'm betting he could find a way to stop her.
>
> <more snippage>
>
> > 2. The Gripping Hand by N&P.
> >
> > Rod Blaine and Sally Fowler-Blaine need to lay off whatever their
> > taking, it's cutting down their IQ!
>
> What did Rod and Sally do that was downright stupid, as opposed to
> being the direct result of manipulation by Glenda?
It's nothing that the _do_, so much as the general attitude they
display. Rod Blaine used to be smarter than that. Now he's acting
more and more like the background of the beginning-to-decay Second
Empire aristocracy.
>
> > 4. It shows up so often in comics that it's almost impossible to
> > single out a solid example. Picking just one: Is Belldandy (AMG
> > manga from Japan) really that nice, or could it be that she's just
> > dim? You can make either case!
>
> In my opinion, Belldandy is both incredibly nice, and a bit dim for a
> goddess.
At times, at other times she seems VERY bright. It depends on the
needs of the plot, but sometimes it gets ridiculous, even for a comedy
manga.
My fantasy manga issue would be one where Banpei starts swinging that
poll at Keiichi, and it's One Time Too Many. As Banpei advances, Kei
the engineering student calmly reaches out of panel, picks up the
super-heavy-duty cable he had ready for the next time this occurs, and
proceeds to ground about a gigawatt into the thing, and calmly watches
as Skuld's robot does the Electric Bugaloo and expires.
"I'm afraid Banpei has suffered a catastrophic electrical malfunction,
Skuld," Kei says, and returns to his favorite pasttime of
contemplating Belldandy.
Shermanlee
Todd Larason
> In article <al8no1$1oa7o0$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>, Mark Blunden
><mark.blun...@ntlworld.com> writes
> some special ritual or other, and no-one even bothered to ask them.
Orson Scott Card's "Puppet Shadows", where ruthless brilliant Peter
Wiggin (just as smart as Ender, but too ruthless) is given an
opportunity to kill Achilles, his only competition in his quest for
world domination. Rather than kill him, Peter chooses instead to free
him from his captors and give him free reign to the Hegemon's
headquarters.
And no, that's not a spoiler. All that's in the first three pages.
--
They can have my computer when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cbdtpa/ http://www.eff.org/
Lee Ann Rucker
<mell...@bu.edu> wrote:
[Buffy musical episode]
> But when Xander said he was the one who cast the spell it seemed
> to me like the writers realized SOMEONE had to have done it,
> so they said, "Hell, have it be Xander." just to get the episode
> over with.
I figured the writers were saying "everyone's expecting it to be Dawn,
let's flip a coin and pick someone else so it'll be a surprise!" Never
mind whether it *works* or not; they seem to have forgotten that
surprise plot twists have to make some kind of sense.
Mark Reichert
> been smart, the book would end on page 20". Damon Knight called this
> an "Idiot plot", i.e. a plot that only woks if soem or all the main
> charactes are idiots.
While it didn't originate with them, Siskel and Ebert made the phrase
well known to the movie goers who watched their show. There were LOTS
of movies in which they were sure that an intelligent character could
have resolved the plot and ended the movie in the first 20 minutes.
Mark Reichert
> Eg: the movie _Broken Arrow_ which by all right should have
> ended at the mine scene, either when the main character dropped both
> bombs down the mine shaft (which he never thought of)
Depends on whether a long fall would damage the device so it doesn't
explode or sets it off.
> or when he
> learned that any code would arm the bombs, having armed one while
> trying to disarm it. From a human trapped in mine next to a nuclear
> explosion, two explosions are hardly worse than one so he should have
> armed both.
Of course, if he's willing to sacrifice himself and the women to keep
the bombs out of the traitor's hands, that or dropping both down the
shaft should have been the first thing done.
Mark Reichert
> Even given that, though, yeah, he was a complete idiot.
He was pretty much a complete idiot the entire season, but crawled up
from the bottom by saving the world at the very end.
Mark Reichert
> I know what you mean about characters' intelligence. One type of novel I
> particularly dislike is when the reader is given all the answers early on,
> and then they have to witness the characters being presented with the
> evidence and totally failing to grasp it again and again. As I recall,
> Melanie Rawn's third Dragon Prince novel is one such example - at times I
> felt like screaming "Don't you get it! The answer's right there in front of
> you! Just stop and *think* for a moment!"
Not that this applies to Rawn's book, but sometimes the characters are
honestly unable to process the information, or believe it to be true.
John Byrne pointed that out when his Lex Luthor was told that all
available facts pointed to Clark Kent being Superman, and Luthor
laughs himself silly because if he had Superman's powers, the last
thing he'd do in his spare time is pose as a newspaper reporter.
Peter Meilinger
>[Buffy musical episode]
I'd feel much better about it if I thought they picked Xander
at random. No chance, though. The writers have never stopped
treating him like the buttmonkey, even after his speech in
the Dracula episode.
Pete
Matt Ruff
>
> Although the series did not start off with this assumption
> (In fact, seemed to be putting it on its head) The Season That Never
> Happened seems to have the idea that powerful women are by definition
> evil or at least terribly misguided.
I'll agree that one of the running themes in Buffy is that power is
easily abused, but I don't get any sense that that applies especially to
women. Perhaps it's just that the majority of the regular cast members
*are* women, so any dramatic conflict is more likely to revolve around a
woman than not.
> SPOILERS
>
> Buffy: slayer, but at the cost of her humanity
> Willow: magical addict, eventually went Dark Phoenix
> Anya: chose to be a demon
> Dawn: dabbles in magic, always with unfortunate results
>
> It's part of the (Peter Pan) theme of TSTNH where not only is
> it very difficult to grow up, it seems to be impossible,
Allowing for the fantasy elements, I didn't find any of the bad choices
made by the characters this season to be implausibly immature or
otherwise unrealistic. On the contrary, one of the things I find
refreshing about Buffy is that they refuse to sacrifice realism in order
to pander to the audience.
A great example of this is the wedding episode. I think on almost any
other series, following the hijinks there would have been a (cliched and
improbable) happy ending, with Xander getting over his cold feet,
reaffirming his love for Anya, and going ahead with the marriage. I
loved it when, even after the demon's treachery was exposed, Xander
*still* wouldn't go through with it -- which, frustrating as it might
be, is exactly how a real person in his position would probably behave.
-- M. Ruff
Adam Canning
ko...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
> The only case I can think of off the top of my head is in
> E. E. Smith's _Triplanetary_. The main female character is dumber than
> a bag full of hammers, and much less useful. That is, except for one
> scene where the hero needs some backup while he's in a firefight with
> a bunch of alien soldiers, and she suddenly stops being a ninny, helps
> him mow down the aliens, and goes right back to her normal
> barely-sentient condition.
Inexperienced rather than stupid. She almost alone among Lensmen major
characters appears not to have been trained in anything that involves
being an adventurer.
--
Adam
Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend.
Thomas Yan
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:42:00 +0100, David Allsopp wrote:
> > In article <al8no1$1oa7o0$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>, Mark Blunden
> ><mark.blun...@ntlworld.com> writes
> > Orson Scott Card's "Xenocide". It was *obvious* that the Piggies had
> > some special ritual or other, and no-one even bothered to ask them.
>
> Orson Scott Card's "Puppet Shadows",
[original cleartext rot13d by TKY]
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> bccbeghavgl gb xvyy Npuvyyrf, uvf bayl pbzcrgvgvba va uvf dhrfg sbe
> jbeyq qbzvangvba. Engure guna xvyy uvz, Crgre pubbfrf vafgrnq gb serr
> uvz sebz uvf pncgbef naq tvir uvz serr ervta gb gur Urtrzba'f
> urnqdhnegref.
> And no, that's not a spoiler. All that's in the first three pages.
Not a spoiler for that book, but maybe a spoiler for earlier books in
that universe?
Jordan179
> > as such has been extensively trained to deal with improbable and
> > dangerous circumstances. It's not that he's fantastically smarter than
> > her: I'm sure that when E. E. "Doc" Smith temporarily merges his soul
> > with Jane Austen to produce a witty novel of manners about the society
> > of the era, we'll see that Clio's far better at maneuvering her way
> > through dinner-party intrigues than is her husband. :-)
> >
> > Sincerely Yours,
> > Jordan
>
> Actually, that would happen, too.
>
> A Lensman is both a military officer and a diplomat, especially the
> 'generalist' Lensmen. (There were lawyer-Lensmen and the like
> specialists, but even they might suddenly find themselves faced with
> situations out of their specialty, since there were _never_ enough
> Lensmen to fulfill the Patrol's needs).
>
> I suspect that a very funny half-spoof, half-serious novella could
> have been written about Roderick Kinnison's first State Dinner as
> President of North America, or the first time Conway Costigan had to
> infiltrate upper crust society while tracking down a zwilnick
> connection or a traitor. Note that in this early stage, they wouldn't
> know all the tricks to hide a Lens, so odds are a lot of the time
> they'd be effectively psi-blind...
I would enjoy reading such a book. Sort of a Doc Smithian version of
_A Civil Campaign_ ... :-)
> Why do I suddenly see Jack Kinnisson, Conway, Mase Northrop, etc,
> sitting around the Costigan kitchen table while Clio moans, "No, no,
> not THAT fork, it'll give you away in an instant..."
>
> It sounds trivial, but for undercover work it's deadly (literally)
> serious stuff, getting the _little_ things right.
Clio also almost certainly has a very good memory for the names and
social relationships of a LOT of people (as in, literally thousands).
That's the sort of thing that you develop as a socialite, if you're
not seriously stupid.
It's also a tremendously important skill for a politician. Or a spy.
Clio and Jill certainly could have shared a few pointers ... we _do_
know that Conway and Clio are still active characters as late as
_First Lensman_.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Sea Wasp
Clio stared. It was starkly, utterly unbelievable, but Miss Kendron
-- she of the (probably) artificially golden hair and (possibly)
enhanced figure -- was wearing the *precise same outfit* as Clio
herself. And the brazen hussy was headed RIGHT FOR CONWAY!
Her eyes narrowed. All right, she thought. Bribed my dressmaker, did
you? We'll see what you've got. Not for nothing had she been raised in
the whirl of society, learning the arts of verbal thrust and
counter-thrust, mastering the tilt of the head that could bring strong
men to their knees. Her mother had well known what dangers lurked in
the glittering, deceptive beauty of corporate social life, and her
daughter's eyes narrowed before opening once more into the limpid
pools of innocence that concealed the lethal combatant within.
"Why, Kendra Kendron, dear! What an ASTONISHING coincidence!" she
sang out as she came in range. "The same dress! That was commissioned
as a unique original from Pierre DuPaul, I might add!"
Kendra's eyes sparkled back with the same guileless look in their
azure depths. "My goodness!" she twittered. "It's so... embarrassing
for you, dear!"
The two locked gazes for a moment. Conway Costigan did not know --
then or ever -- what titanic forces were unleashed at that moment. He
could not see -- nor could any whose fashion sense was below the third
level of stress -- beyond the empty, light greetings, through the
innocent and harmless guise each wore. To him, the entire meeting was
an almost inconsequential encounter, albeit with a girl whose beauty
and charm had momentarily (and only momentarily, he was sure)
distracted him from Clio.
But to Clio and Kendra -- each well aware of the other's skills --
the glances instantly penetrated the disguse, showing the other as a
warrior of emotional combat fully their own equal. The razor-sharp
intellect, the immense and almost inconceivably vast knowledge of
fashion in a dozen countries, the casual tone of voice that could
devastate an opponent or lift up an ally -- all these and more were in
their arsenals. Kendra knew, in that moment, that Clio was willing to
risk her own destruction -- even to the point of utter humiliation in
all else -- in order to keep Conway from her. And Clio knew, with
equal certainty, that Kendra was here to make sure that this never
came to pass; she had been instructed to capture Costigan's heart, and
she was cold and ruthless as Gray Roger himself; no ordinary force
stood a chance of stopping her.
For the most infinitesmal fraction of a second Clio was uncertain.
Kendra's force of fashion was more absolutely formidable than she
could have imagined. Should she tell one of the others? No,
impossible. Jill might -- probably would -- believe her. But Jill was
not available. None of Conway's friends would even understand. In
fact, even to ask would weaken her position. She would certainly fail.
Even as the thought occured to her, she dismissed it. In that
instant, Clio became fully what she had only before had the potential
for being, and for one moment the crystal-clear gaze hardened.
Costigan could not have seen it from his taller position, nor, had he
seen it, could he have understood what he saw.
But the force of that gaze struck Kendra like a blow; never had she
faced such an opponent -- why, even a few weeks ago Clio herself
couldn't have done this! Well it was for Civilization that Clio's
mother had raised her so well! Well indeed it was that Clio had
learned those lessons, and that she had been hardened to society
conflict in a thousand salons across the System! Kendra hesitated, and
Clio bored in, keeping the gaze locked, and turning ever so slightly.
Kendra realized what her intent was, and made her counter move -- just
that fractional second too late. Conway's gaze shifted, from Kendra to
Clio, and Clio's eyes, now once more as innocent and warm as the
regard of a child, captured his own.
To Conway, Kendra's sniff and goodbye barely registered, but to Clio
it was the sound of victory.
And on distant Arisia, Mentor gave a mental nod. "You were concerned,
Eukonidor. Yet our Visualization was sound. Though such
emotionally-fraught events are no longer something we of Arisia
participate in, still our Visualizations include them. It is true that
it was possible, though barely so, that Gharlane, having now some
concept of Arisia and our capacities, could have directly or through
one of his intermediaries intervened; yet he was already aware that we
were watching, and it was extremely unlikely he would choose to risk
himself when we could have equally simply energized our own forms of
flesh to counter his interference."
Dan Swartzendruber
Sea Wasp
*bow* Thank you, you're too kind. Just a very pale shadow of the true
Historian of Civilization, but I like to think I managed to approach
him at moments.
Dorothy J Heydt
....
>
> The two locked gazes for a moment. Conway Costigan did not know --
>then or ever -- what titanic forces were unleashed at that moment. He
>could not see -- nor could any whose fashion sense was below the third
>level of stress -- beyond the empty, light greetings, through the
>innocent and harmless guise each wore. To him, the entire meeting was
>an almost inconsequential encounter, albeit with a girl whose beauty
>and charm had momentarily (and only momentarily, he was sure)
>distracted him from Clio.
.....
Is there a rasfw award? Rasfw award with polychromatic
side clusters.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Sea Wasp
>
> In article <3D7AB0...@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>
> ....
> >
> > The two locked gazes for a moment. Conway Costigan did not know --
> >then or ever -- what titanic forces were unleashed at that moment. He
> >could not see -- nor could any whose fashion sense was below the third
> >level of stress -- beyond the empty, light greetings, through the
> >innocent and harmless guise each wore. To him, the entire meeting was
> >an almost inconsequential encounter, albeit with a girl whose beauty
> >and charm had momentarily (and only momentarily, he was sure)
> >distracted him from Clio.
>
> .....
>
> Is there a rasfw award? Rasfw award with polychromatic
> side clusters.
*blush* I've been getting compliments of cosmic proportions on this
one; even being told it was "Worthy of Randall Garrett"!
Dorothy J Heydt
>
> *blush* I've been getting compliments of cosmic proportions on this
>one; even being told it was "Worthy of Randall Garrett"!
Well, it is. You have captured the authentic diction.
Dan Swartzendruber
John Schilling
>>[Buffy musical episode]
I don't actually know whether it is the writers, the editors, or the
producers to blame, probably some combination thereof. But after the
third season, I think they lost the knack for dealing with human
characters. Everybody else got to be a member of a self-contained
little Teen Superhero Clique, and as a generic Teen Superhero show
it wasn't bad, but Xander was the token human and so didn't fit.
I much preferred it when it was a show about human beings trying to
find their place in the world, all the while stuck with the job of
protecting it from metaphorically appropriate supernatural evil.
Xander in particular really shined in that show.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Louann Miller
wrote:
>In article <3D7B62...@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>>
>> *blush* I've been getting compliments of cosmic proportions on this
>>one; even being told it was "Worthy of Randall Garrett"!
>
>Well, it is. You have captured the authentic diction.
Clear quill.
Jordan179
<snip really good vignette>
I really liked that -- you did it perfectly in Smithian style. Well done!
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
J.B. Moreno
> Even as the thought occured to her, she dismissed it. In that
> instant, Clio became fully what she had only before had the potential
> for being, and for one moment the crystal-clear gaze hardened.
Excellent!
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
Steve Taylor
> Clio stared. It was starkly, utterly unbelievable, but Miss Kendron
> -- she of the (probably) artificially golden hair and (possibly)
> enhanced figure -- was wearing the *precise same outfit* as Clio
> herself. And the brazen hussy was headed RIGHT FOR CONWAY!
[...megaSnip...]
Bravo. You've caught the tone much better than those David Kyle
abominations ever did.
> Sea Wasp
Steve
Johnny1A
That was truly amazing! I loved it! I'll bet 'Doc' would have, too.
(For that matter, maybe he did love it, we know little of the next
Cycle of Existence!)
Shermanlee
Dan Swartzendruber
says...
Well, after all, David was only a youth, without the power and scope to
truly catch the right tone.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3D7A267C...@worldnet.att.net:
>...
> A great example of this is the wedding episode. I think on
> almost any other series, following the hijinks there would have
> been a (cliched and improbable) happy ending, with Xander
> getting over his cold feet, reaffirming his love for Anya, and
> going ahead with the marriage. I loved it when, even after the
> demon's treachery was exposed, Xander *still* wouldn't go
> through with it -- which, frustrating as it might be, is exactly
> how a real person in his position would probably behave.
Except that "left at the altar" is very much a TV cliche, which
happens at a far greater rate on television than in real life (unless
my personal experience is way off the main curve, anyway). People
who have cold feet either break the engagement in advance or get
divorced in six months, but very rarely decide to subject their
fiance(e)s to the grand guignol humiliation extravaganza like that.
But they're a dime a dozen on TV.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Sea Wasp
>
> Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message news:<3D7AB0...@wizvax.net>...
>
> <snip really good vignette>
>
> I really liked that -- you did it perfectly in Smithian style. Well done!
Coming from you, that means a great deal. Alas, if Gharlane were only
here. I'm sure he could have shown me points at which my visualization
was still faulty.
:)
Lee Ann Rucker
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <3D7B62...@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
> >
> > *blush* I've been getting compliments of cosmic proportions on this
> >one; even being told it was "Worthy of Randall Garrett"!
>
> Well, it is. You have captured the authentic diction.
On the beam, to the proverbial 9 decimal places.
Sea Wasp
Despite his pretentious and arrogant exterior, the Wasp could not
accept these comments; he knew, intrinsically and instinctively, that
he could never truly aspire to the heights of the Historian or his
friends, and therefore could only feel honored beyond his own small
talents at the praise being heaped upon him for what he felt had only
been a slight and weak attempt at emulating the Masters.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>The only case I can think of off the top of my head is in
>E. E. Smith's _Triplanetary_. The main female character is dumber than
>a bag full of hammers, and much less useful. That is, except for one
>scene where the hero needs some backup while he's in a firefight with
>a bunch of alien soldiers, and she suddenly stops being a ninny, helps
>him mow down the aliens, and goes right back to her normal
>barely-sentient condition.
I agree with Jordan on this; I'm not sure why you think that Clio
Marsden is dumb. She doesn't have a strong technical background, and
she's clearly scared out of her wits, but then, you would be too, in
her shoes. Well, I would be; perhaps you're made of sterner stuff
than I am. Despite that, however, she comports herself with courage
and decorum.
--
Pete McCutchen
Nyrath the nearly wise
You captured the tone perfectly!
Nyrath the nearly wise
You can run that clear across the board for me too!
Mike Van Pelt
>Jordan179 wrote:
> Clio stared. It was starkly, utterly unbelievable, but Miss Kendron
>-- she of the (probably) artificially golden hair and (possibly)
>enhanced figure -- was wearing the *precise same outfit* as Clio
>herself. And the brazen hussy was headed RIGHT FOR CONWAY!
Marvelous! (Time to go re-read the Historian's books again....)
--
Have you noticed that, when we were young, we were told | Mike Van Pelt
that "everybody else is doing it" was a really stupid | m...@calweb.com
reason to do something, but now it's the standard reason | KE6BVH
for picking a particular software package? -- Barry Gehm
Jordan179
> Bravo. You've caught the tone much better than those David Kyle
> abominations ever did.
Kyle's _concepts_ were actually quite good -- the problem is that
Kyle's _style_ is plodding. This is bad, because one of the really
good things about Smith's style is its vibrant energy, so the contrast
really shows.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
how...@brazee.net
On 8-Sep-2002, "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Except that "left at the altar" is very much a TV cliche, which
> happens at a far greater rate on television than in real life (unless
> my personal experience is way off the main curve, anyway). People
> who have cold feet either break the engagement in advance or get
> divorced in six months, but very rarely decide to subject their
> fiance(e)s to the grand guignol humiliation extravaganza like that.
> But they're a dime a dozen on TV.
How often does it happen per decade on TV vs Real Life?
Mike Schilling
> Despite his pretentious and arrogant exterior, the Wasp could not
> accept these comments; he knew, intrinsically and instinctively, that
> he could never truly aspire to the heights of the Historian or his
> friends, and therefore could only feel honored beyond his own small
> talents at the praise being heaped upon him for what he felt had only
> been a slight and weak attempt at emulating the Masters.
You know, somewhere in another plane, you've made Gharlane very proud.
Randy Money
>
[...]
> Allowing for the fantasy elements, I didn't find any of the bad choices
> made by the characters this season to be implausibly immature or
> otherwise unrealistic. On the contrary, one of the things I find
> refreshing about Buffy is that they refuse to sacrifice realism in order
> to pander to the audience.
Yes. Nicely said.
> A great example of this is the wedding episode. I think on almost any
> other series, following the hijinks there would have been a (cliched and
> improbable) happy ending, with Xander getting over his cold feet,
> reaffirming his love for Anya, and going ahead with the marriage. I
> loved it when, even after the demon's treachery was exposed, Xander
> *still* wouldn't go through with it -- which, frustrating as it might
> be, is exactly how a real person in his position would probably behave.
>
> -- M. Ruff
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who found what the characters
did as within the realm of normal human behavior. My pet peeve comes
from fans who continually condemned Dawn for being whiney. I sympathize
a little and I do think it was laid on a bit thick a few times, but
let's remember she's stuffed with memories she knows are false, she lost
the one adult who cared most for her, she has been hunted by a god,
dated by a vampire, marginalized as a little kid by her sister's
friends, frequently ignored or shuffled aside by said sister who was
having some major emotional problems of her own, ...
Dawn's had a rather difficult life and a hard time creating an identity
and damn little help doing so.
Randy M.
John Schilling
>Matt Ruff wrote:
>>
>[...]
>> Allowing for the fantasy elements, I didn't find any of the bad choices
>> made by the characters this season to be implausibly immature or
>> otherwise unrealistic. On the contrary, one of the things I find
>> refreshing about Buffy is that they refuse to sacrifice realism in order
>> to pander to the audience.
>Yes. Nicely said.
And yet Spike still lives.
Sea Wasp
>
> "Sea Wasp" <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> news:3D7CA0...@wizvax.net..
> > accept these comments; he knew, intrinsically and instinctively, that
> > he could never truly aspire to the heights of the Historian or his
> > friends, and therefore could only feel honored beyond his own small
> > talents at the praise being heaped upon him for what he felt had only
> > been a slight and weak attempt at emulating the Masters.
>
> You know, somewhere in another plane, you've made Gharlane very proud.
*snif* <---- all choked up.
R. Byers
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Randy Money wrote:
> Dawn's had a rather difficult life and a hard time creating an identity
> and damn little help doing so.
Great ghu, now you're whining for her!
--
Randy Byers <rby...@u.washington.edu>
David Salmansohn
perfect, I actually had tears in my eyes from laughing.
Thank you!
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
da...@salmansohn.com
Matt Ruff
>
> Randy Money writes:
>
>>Matt Ruff wrote:
>>
>>> Allowing for the fantasy elements, I didn't find any of the bad choices
>>> made by the characters this season to be implausibly immature or
>>> otherwise unrealistic. On the contrary, one of the things I find
>>> refreshing about Buffy is that they refuse to sacrifice realism in order
>>> to pander to the audience.
>>
>> Yes. Nicely said.
>
> And yet Spike still lives.
No, he's been dead for more than a century.
But seriously -- I don't find it unrealistic (or pandering) that Spike
hasn't been staked yet. He's a very charming serial killer...and
arguably the most interesting character on the show.
-- M. Ruff
Deann Allen
[Hands Sea Wasp a tissue] Now hold your head up. You done good.
D.
--
P.S. Now, when is that whatever you're writing for Eric going to be
done? Can't wait to see it. [eager :bounce: :bounce:] :)
-----------------------------------------
Sea Wasp
>
> Sea Wasp wrote:
> >
> > Mike Schilling wrote:
> > >
> > > "Sea Wasp" <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3D7CA0...@wizvax.net.
> > > > accept these comments; he knew, intrinsically and instinctively,
> > > > that he could never truly aspire to the heights of the Historian
> > > > or his friends, and therefore could only feel honored beyond his
> > > > own small talents at the praise being heaped upon him for what he
> > > > felt had only been a slight and weak attempt at emulating the
> > > > Masters.
> > >
> > > You know, somewhere in another plane, you've made Gharlane very
> > > proud.
> >
> > *snif* <---- all choked up.
>
> [Hands Sea Wasp a tissue] Now hold your head up. You done good.
>
> D.
> --
> P.S. Now, when is that whatever you're writing for Eric going to be
> done? Can't wait to see it. [eager :bounce: :bounce:] :)
(the new thread title is the current working title of the book; I
like it. Eric Flint and Jim Baen came up with it.)
Oh, it's been DONE for months. Now it's in the hands of the editors.
Publication date is probably about a year or so away (I haven't had
one given to me yet). Sometime before that I'm sure they'll set me up
with a place to put up advance snippets, for those who like the
Chinese Water Torture approach to reading.
Peter Meilinger
So was the Mayor. And Mr. Trick. And The Master, really.
> and
>arguably the most interesting character on the show.
You really think so? He's bored me to tears ever since he became
a regular character back in season four. Since they started
the relationship with Buffy, the only thing the writers seem
to have on their mind is how much of his body they can show
and how many ludicrously unrealistic sexual couplings they
can put on the air. Not too interesting.
Pete
Randy Money
It is if you're interested in the reasons for and consequences of sexual
coupling. In a show about growing up and becoming an adult, I thought
Buffy showed more than one symptom of the difficulty of that transition.
As for the couplings themselves -- well, there were interesting
stagings. One or two really brought the house down.
Now, if you want to say it was done awkwardly at times, no argument.
Randy M.
Randy Money
Nooooooo, IIIIIIIII'mmmmmmm nooooooooot!
I think there was an inherent trap with Dawn's character that the
writers partly fell into: it's hard to show a character who's adrift
without appearing, as the writer(s), to be adrift, too. (Well, maybe
it's easier in the current Angel sense of adrift, though I have a
sinking feeling about that ... *cough*). I also think they're starting
to dig themselves out of it. This could be an interesting year. (Or
putrid -- there's always room for disaster, too.)
Randy M.
Peter Meilinger
>Peter Meilinger wrote:
About Spike...
>> You really think so? He's bored me to tears ever since he became
>> a regular character back in season four. Since they started
>> the relationship with Buffy, the only thing the writers seem
>> to have on their mind is how much of his body they can show
>> and how many ludicrously unrealistic sexual couplings they
>> can put on the air. Not too interesting.
>It is if you're interested in the reasons for and consequences of sexual
>coupling. In a show about growing up and becoming an adult, I thought
>Buffy showed more than one symptom of the difficulty of that transition.
I agree with you there, but I think the writers had to make the
characters a lot less grown-up than they'd already been portrayed
to pull it off. Buffy and the others have been fighting for their
lives and dealing with grown-up problems for years now. All of
a sudden they're immature again and have to learn to be mature
all over?
And yeah, Buffy's had to deal with the death of both her mother
and herself in the past year, and that's a big shock to anyone
of any maturity level. I just don't think the writers handled
it very well, so it didn't work for me.
>As for the couplings themselves -- well, there were interesting
>stagings. One or two really brought the house down.
The sex scenes on this show have never done anything for me.
Maybe it's because I think Sarah Michelle Gellar is the least
attractive of all the female recurring actresses, and I don't
much care for the actors who play Spike, Angel or Riley, either.
Now, if they want to show a scene with Xander and Willow, I'll
be glued to the set.
>Now, if you want to say it was done awkwardly at times, no argument.
Yep. I think it was when I read a comment from one of the writers
to the effect that they really were testing what they could get
past the censors that I really started to dislike their efforts.
Pete
John Schilling
>John Schilling wrote:
>> Randy Money writes:
>>>Matt Ruff wrote:
>>> Yes. Nicely said.
I have not been watching the sixth season. There is no sixth season.
But I can easily believe that, in the sixth season imagined by the same
sorts of people who inexplicably imagine there was a _Highlander II_ and
a _Star Trek V_, Spike is by default the most interesting character.
I did watch the fourth and fifth seasons. Through most of which, Spike
was an unbelievably pathetic character, and yet one who realistically
would have been "killed" a dozen times over. Half the time, the writers
came up with an absurdly implausible reason why he was not killed, the
other half they did not even bother. He was kept around to pander to
the target audience pure and simple, and a solid indication that people
like me were no longer part of the target audience.
Ross TenEyck
>Matt Ruff <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>John Schilling wrote:
>>> And yet Spike still lives.
>>But seriously -- I don't find it unrealistic (or pandering) that Spike
>>hasn't been staked yet. He's a very charming serial killer...
>> and
>>arguably the most interesting character on the show.
>You really think so? He's bored me to tears ever since he became
>a regular character back in season four. Since they started
>the relationship with Buffy, the only thing the writers seem
>to have on their mind is how much of his body they can show
>and how many ludicrously unrealistic sexual couplings they
>can put on the air. Not too interesting.
Well, YMMV, of course. What I find interesting about Spike is
his slow and roundabout journey to acquiring something resembling
a conscience.
Which is why I have reservations about the surprise finish to
the last season. Spike was on the way to getting a soul, or at
least a working substitute for whatever souls do in the Buffyverse
these days; having one suddenly bestowed on him is probably going
to shortcut that.
And if they use this as an excuse to write "Buffy and Angel Mark II,"
I'll be gravely disappointed.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
R. Byers
SPOILERS for Buffy
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Randy Money wrote:
> I think there was an inherent trap with Dawn's character that the
> writers partly fell into: it's hard to show a character who's adrift
> without appearing, as the writer(s), to be adrift, too. (Well, maybe
> it's easier in the current Angel sense of adrift, though I have a
> sinking feeling about that ... *cough*). I also think they're starting
> to dig themselves out of it. This could be an interesting year. (Or
> putrid -- there's always room for disaster, too.)
When Buffy died at the end of season 5, I cheered. I hoped (not
realistically, I know) that they'd dump mopey Buffy and start from
adolescent scratch with Dawn. Instead, they brought Buffy back and made
her even mopier.
Perhaps next season they will hire (ObWrittenSF) Vernor Vinge to write for
them, and he will explain that the Buffyverse was passing through a Mopey
Zone and has returned to a Smartass Humor Zone.
Or perhaps the show is intended for mopey teenaged goths (and the people
who love them). Hm.
--
Randy Byers <rby...@u.washington.edu>
Peter Meilinger
>Peter Meilinger <mell...@bu.edu> writes:
>>You really think so? He's bored me to tears ever since he became
>>a regular character back in season four. Since they started
>>the relationship with Buffy, the only thing the writers seem
>>to have on their mind is how much of his body they can show
>>and how many ludicrously unrealistic sexual couplings they
>>can put on the air. Not too interesting.
>Well, YMMV, of course. What I find interesting about Spike is
>his slow and roundabout journey to acquiring something resembling
>a conscience.
My main problem was that it was far, far too slow and roundabout.
He spent over a season either trying his best to get the gang
killed or loudly proclaiming that he wished he could still
kill them himself. He should've been staked long ago.
Then, when the writers finally did start his journey towards
redemption, they drew it out for-friggin'-ever.
>Which is why I have reservations about the surprise finish to
>the last season. Spike was on the way to getting a soul, or at
>least a working substitute for whatever souls do in the Buffyverse
>these days; having one suddenly bestowed on him is probably going
>to shortcut that.
>And if they use this as an excuse to write "Buffy and Angel Mark II,"
>I'll be gravely disappointed.
Me, too. Unfortunately, I don't see very many ways they can avoid
it. Spike's a vampire with a soul, just like Angel. Even if he
and Buffy don't end up together, the comparison is just too
obvious.
My real hope is that Spike gets his soul but still reverts to
evil, but I doubt that's going to happen.
Pete
John Schilling
>SPOILERS for Buffy
>On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Randy Money wrote:
>> I think there was an inherent trap with Dawn's character that the
>> writers partly fell into: it's hard to show a character who's adrift
>> without appearing, as the writer(s), to be adrift, too. (Well, maybe
>> it's easier in the current Angel sense of adrift, though I have a
>> sinking feeling about that ... *cough*). I also think they're starting
>> to dig themselves out of it. This could be an interesting year. (Or
>> putrid -- there's always room for disaster, too.)
>When Buffy died at the end of season 5, I cheered. I hoped (not
>realistically, I know) that they'd dump mopey Buffy and start from
>adolescent scratch with Dawn. Instead, they brought Buffy back and made
>her even mopier.
>Perhaps next season they will hire (ObWrittenSF) Vernor Vinge to write for
>them, and he will explain that the Buffyverse was passing through a Mopey
>Zone and has returned to a Smartass Humor Zone.
Too late for that. They need to hire Patrick Duffy to open the season
premier, stepping out of a shower and sitting down to watch "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer: Season IV".
>Or perhaps the show is intended for mopey teenaged goths (and the people
>who love them). Hm.
I believe that you have identified the problem. My guess is that the
subset of the creative team which believed the show to be anything more
than that, mostly migrated to "Angel" at the end of the third season.
Should have been the other way around, IMHO.
Adam Canning
Time to bring you down a notch.
It was a high grade example of a reflection of the platonic true form of
'Smithian' dialog.
A higher grade than Smith used since he didn't want to put people off.
--
Adam
Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend.
Jerry Friedman
> Am I the only one who sometimes gets annoyed when a major character in
> fiction seems to alternate between reasonably intelligent and just
> plain dumb, for no obvious reason? This shows up especially in
> ongoing series (books, TV, comics, etc), but can also be seen in some
> longer novels.
I've known a lot of people who were really smart at some things but
not others, or who did some things that were very smart and others
that were very foolish.
I have a chess program with a library of "classic games" annotated by
Grandmaster Yasser Seirawan. In one game of his own that he
annotates, he blunders egregiously, and his comment is, "Yes,
Virginia, grandmasters really do hang rooks."
I agree that in fiction it can be annoying when it's too convenient.
--
Jerry Friedman
David E. Siegel
> Jordan179 wrote:
> >
> > sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote in message news:<b3030854.02090...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > > Conway Costigan, on the other hand, is a top Triplanetary agent, and
> > > > as such has been extensively trained to deal with improbable and
> > > > dangerous circumstances. It's not that he's fantastically smarter than
> > > > her: I'm sure that when E. E. "Doc" Smith temporarily merges his soul
> > > > with Jane Austen to produce a witty novel of manners about the society
> > > > of the era, we'll see that Clio's far better at maneuvering her way
> > > > through dinner-party intrigues than is her husband. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely Yours,
> > > > Jordan
> > >
> > > Actually, that would happen, too.
> > >
<snip>
> > >
> > > I suspect that a very funny half-spoof, half-serious novella could
> > > have been written about Roderick Kinnison's first State Dinner as
> > > President of North America, or the first time Conway Costigan had to
> > > infiltrate upper crust society while tracking down a zwilnick
> > > connection or a traitor. Note that in this early stage, they wouldn't
> > > know all the tricks to hide a Lens, so odds are a lot of the time
> > > they'd be effectively psi-blind...
> >
> > I would enjoy reading such a book. Sort of a Doc Smithian version of
> > _A Civil Campaign_ ... :-)
>
> Clio stared. It was starkly, utterly unbelievable, but Miss Kendron
> -- she of the (probably) artificially golden hair and (possibly)
> enhanced figure -- was wearing the *precise same outfit* as Clio
> herself. And the brazen hussy was headed RIGHT FOR CONWAY!
> Her eyes narrowed. All right, she thought. Bribed my dressmaker, did
> you? We'll see what you've got. Not for nothing had she been raised in
> the whirl of society, learning the arts of verbal thrust and
> counter-thrust, mastering the tilt of the head that could bring strong
> men to their knees. Her mother had well known what dangers lurked in
> the glittering, deceptive beauty of corporate social life, and her
> daughter's eyes narrowed before opening once more into the limpid
> pools of innocence that concealed the lethal combatant within.
>
That was wonderful, Sea wasp. You have indeed caught the tone of the
Lensman Series, rather better IMO than Garrett's "Backstage Lensman "
or any other parody/pastiche I have ever seen. I wish i had a copy of
the (non-existant) book or short work this is taken from. (Hmm, would
"Lensman's Mate" or "Through a Lens, Darkly" be a better title?) Mind
you, I can't advise you to write it, rather than working in your own
worlds -- even leaving aside the opyright questions, i don't know that
there would be enough of a market for this, and the tone would
probably be very hard to sustain. Buit some of us would love it. I
have posted about the Lensman books (mostly in the "Space Opera"
threads) in ways whaich may have seemed very hostile, and I do think
that there are considerable flaws in the books. But thy are
marevelous in their own way, and you have caught the tone exactly,
while moving to a field of combat which was never explored by Smith at
all, IFAIK. Thank you very much.
-DES
Ian Galbraith
:Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
[snip]
:>It is if you're interested in the reasons for and consequences of sexual
:>coupling. In a show about growing up and becoming an adult, I thought
:>Buffy showed more than one symptom of the difficulty of that transition.
:I agree with you there, but I think the writers had to make the
:characters a lot less grown-up than they'd already been portrayed
:to pull it off. Buffy and the others have been fighting for their
:lives and dealing with grown-up problems for years now. All of
:a sudden they're immature again and have to learn to be mature
:all over?
But they hadn't been grappling with adult issues, the actual life
issues they had been dealing with were teenage issues. In S6 they had
to deal with adult life issues, and that while their personal problems
were coming to a head.
[snip]
Ian Galbraith
:Ross TenEyck <ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
[snip]
:>Well, YMMV, of course. What I find interesting about Spike is
:>his slow and roundabout journey to acquiring something resembling
:>a conscience.
:My main problem was that it was far, far too slow and roundabout.
:He spent over a season either trying his best to get the gang
:killed or loudly proclaiming that he wished he could still
:kill them himself. He should've been staked long ago.
:Then, when the writers finally did start his journey towards
:redemption, they drew it out for-friggin'-ever.
Mileage varies, IMHO this added weight to the storyline, as did
drawing out Willow's problems over seasons. Angel suffers in
comparison because they do the exact opposite, the problems and
storylines come to a head too quickly and are rushed.
[snip]
Sea Wasp
> That was wonderful, Sea wasp. You have indeed caught the tone of the
> Lensman Series, rather better IMO than Garrett's "Backstage Lensman "
> or any other parody/pastiche I have ever seen.
Thank you.
I wish i had a copy of
> the (non-existant) book or short work this is taken from. (Hmm, would
> "Lensman's Mate" or "Through a Lens, Darkly" be a better title?)
"Compact of Civilization" -- a Lens is a symbol of science and mental
prowess; a woman's compact is the corresponding symbol of fashion and
charismatic prowess. Credit cards didn't exist when Smith was writing,
or they might be a better symbol. Tolkien already took rings, or I'd
have used those.
Mind
> you, I can't advise you to write it, rather than working in your own
> worlds -- even leaving aside the opyright questions, i don't know that
> there would be enough of a market for this, and the tone would
> probably be very hard to sustain.
Especially for those of us who (A) are not women, (B) weren't born in
the Smithian era and don't have the real spirit "in" us, and (C)
haven't the faintest idea what the real social whirl, even in those
days, was like.
Buit some of us would love it. I
> have posted about the Lensman books (mostly in the "Space Opera"
> threads) in ways whaich may have seemed very hostile, and I do think
> that there are considerable flaws in the books. But thy are
> marevelous in their own way, and you have caught the tone exactly,
> while moving to a field of combat which was never explored by Smith at
> all, IFAIK. Thank you very much.
My pleasure. I'm afraid that if I ever set out to actually write in
that style for any length of time, I'd have to write an actual story
set in the REAL LensVerse. And the only one I could think of to write
would be the story following CotL. Problem being (aside from that
little copyright thing) of course that then I'd have to take on the
starkly unbelieveable challenge of inventing a menace sufficient to
require MORE capable beings than those that defeated Eddore!
I'm not sure my mind is stable at the fourth level of stress.
Deann Allen
>
> Deann Allen wrote:
[snip]
> > P.S. Now, when is that whatever you're writing for Eric going to
> > be done? Can't wait to see it. [eager :bounce: :bounce:] :)
>
> (the new thread title is the current working title of the book; I
> like it. Eric Flint and Jim Baen came up with it.)
>
> Oh, it's been DONE for months. Now it's in the hands of the editors.
Yay! :) What's the premise?
> Publication date is probably about a year or so away (I haven't had
> one given to me yet).
Growf. Phooee. But don't feel bad; I still don't know what the pub
date is for the 1632 anthology. Early next year is the best I've
gotten so far. And my mother is bugging me for a solid date, of
course. ;p
> Sometime before that I'm sure they'll set me up with a place to
> put up advance snippets, for those who like the Chinese Water
> Torture approach to reading.
Heh. :) Most probably Mutter or Podium. Ringo gave Kratman and
Williams space in his conference. Then I guess Kratman's threads
reached some sort of critical mass recently, because he got his
own conference the other day.
D.
--
It may be time to water the tree.
-----------------------------------------
Sea Wasp
>
> Sea Wasp wrote:
> >
> > Deann Allen wrote:
> [snip]
> > > P.S. Now, when is that whatever you're writing for Eric going to
> > > be done? Can't wait to see it. [eager :bounce: :bounce:] :)
> >
> > (the new thread title is the current working title of the book; I
> > like it. Eric Flint and Jim Baen came up with it.)
> >
> > Oh, it's been DONE for months. Now it's in the hands of the editors.
>
> Yay! :) What's the premise?
The best quick summary I've been able to come up with is "MacGyver
crossed with X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Not "normal Baen"
at all, as Eric pointed out. So my next one will be more the Baen norm
-- basically space opera/military type stuff -- but with, um, some
peculiar twists of its own.
>
> > Publication date is probably about a year or so away (I haven't had
> > one given to me yet).
>
> Growf. Phooee. But don't feel bad; I still don't know what the pub
> date is for the 1632 anthology. Early next year is the best I've
> gotten so far. And my mother is bugging me for a solid date, of
> course. ;p
I look at it that the important thing is that there will BE a
publication date!
>
> > Sometime before that I'm sure they'll set me up with a place to
> > put up advance snippets, for those who like the Chinese Water
> > Torture approach to reading.
>
> Heh. :) Most probably Mutter or Podium.
Probably Mutter, since Eric's basically my sponsor -- unless they
decide to hand my my own, seeing as I've been online so long already
and could probably generate some small traffic on my own.
Richard Harter
[snip delightful Smith/Austen pastiche]
A transcript is to be found at
http://home.tiac.net/~cri/2002/clio.html
Peter Meilinger
I'd prefer something in the middle, I guess. And as far as
Willow's problem went, I think they had the worst of both
worlds - they built up her desire for more and more power over
the course of several seasons, as you said. And then it all
happened so quickly - we had several episodes leading up
to her going to the magical crackhouse, and then BAM! she
realized she had a problem and begged for forgiveness all
at once, almost.
Then we had way too many examples of why she wanted to go
back to using magic but couldn't. And of course it turned
out that every single problem could be handled without
Willow falling off the wagon, which I found unrealistic
given how vital she's been to the gang in past years.
And then, when she finally went all Dark Willow, bringing
to a head the subplot that's been literally years in the
making, it lasted all of two episodes before Xander said
"I weally, weally wuv you" and brought her back from the
brink.
If you ask me, this season should've ended with Willow
still evil, and she should have been the Big Bad for
at least the first half of next season. It's possible
she'll relapse and they could still do that, but I doubt
it.
Pete
Keith Morrison
> The best quick summary I've been able to come up with is "MacGyver
> crossed with X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Not "normal Baen"
> at all, as Eric pointed out. So my next one will be more the Baen norm
> -- basically space opera/military type stuff -- but with, um, some
> peculiar twists of its own.
So we finally get to see the exploding spaceship and the babe with the
plunging neckline?
--
Keith
Robert Sneddon
<kei...@polarnet.ca> writes
>
>So we finally get to see the exploding spaceship and the babe with the
>plunging neckline?
Will you settle for an exploding babe and a spaceship with a plunging
neckline?
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Keith Morrison
>>So we finally get to see the exploding spaceship and the babe with the
>>plunging neckline?
>
> Will you settle for an exploding babe and a spaceship with a plunging
> neckline?
Well that depends on the spaceship. Is it one of those old, ugly, beaten-up
utilitarian spaceships like the Nostromo or one of those spaceships with the
sexy curves like the Valkyrie?
--
Keith
Randy Money
>
> SPOILERS for Buffy
>
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Randy Money wrote:
>
> > I think there was an inherent trap with Dawn's character that the
> > writers partly fell into: it's hard to show a character who's adrift
> > without appearing, as the writer(s), to be adrift, too. (Well, maybe
> > it's easier in the current Angel sense of adrift, though I have a
> > sinking feeling about that ... *cough*). I also think they're starting
> > to dig themselves out of it. This could be an interesting year. (Or
> > putrid -- there's always room for disaster, too.)
>
> When Buffy died at the end of season 5, I cheered. I hoped (not
> realistically, I know) that they'd dump mopey Buffy and start from
> adolescent scratch with Dawn. Instead, they brought Buffy back and made
> her even mopier.
All of which seemed quite reasonable reaction from a character who'd
gone through what she'd gone through.
> Perhaps next season they will hire (ObWrittenSF) Vernor Vinge to write for
> them, and he will explain that the Buffyverse was passing through a Mopey
> Zone and has returned to a Smartass Humor Zone.
>
> Or perhaps the show is intended for mopey teenaged goths (and the people
> who love them). Hm.
Okay, I don't agree, but I admit I like John's suggestion about Patrick
Duffy.
Randy M.