Foreknowledge of assassination?
Dave Reitzes
>
>I apologize for bringing this one up again, but I lost the thread where
>I'd mentioned it before. I've heard that there was a woman (Rose
>Cheramie?) who had hitched a ride with 2 men a few days BEFORE the
>assassination who had spoken in front of her about being on the way to
>Dallas to kill Kennedy. The story went on to say that they had beaten her
>up and thrown her from the car and that on arrival at the local hospital
>she had told at least one doctor about the 2 men and the threat against
>JFK. It went on to say that the doctor had contacted the police and that
>the police interviewed the woman and believed her story.
>
>First - Do I have the "facts" of the "story" about right? If not, please
>correct me.
>
>Second - Did anything like this actually happen? Did she tell this story
>at all? Did this woman even exist? Did the police interview her? Etc.
>
>Third - If it was this Rose Cheramie person, I understand that her
>character is highly impeachable at best.
>
>Fourth - Despite her character, I find that she told the story (if she
>did) BEFORE the assassination very interesting. No matter how much of a
>drunken, drug addled whore she might have been, it takes (in my mind) a
>pretty big leap to think she just made all this up BEFORE it happened and
>then turned out to be essentially right (Kennedy was assassinated).
>Thoughts and comments PLEASE. joisa.
"Who Am I?"
In my short life, I was arrested over 50 times in ten states for charges
including juvenile delinquency, vagrancy, drunk and disorderly behavior,
larceny, auto theft, possession of narcotics, driving under the influence of
narcotics, driving while intoxicated, prostitution, and arson. I used over 30
different names. I claimed at least six different dates of birth. In 1947, I
tried to slash my wrists and was "believed to be insane." I later tried
unsuccessfully to become a criminal informant, and provided the FBI with false
information on at least one occasion. I was ruled "criminally insane" in 1961.
I was institutionalized several times, with "psychotic" behavior noted.
Who am I?
a) Melba Christine Marcades
b) Patsy Sue Allen
c) Christine Youngblood
d) Melba Christine Youngblood
e) Melba Christine Youngblood Rodman
f) Mickey Rodman
g) Mrs. Albert Rodman
h) Melba Christina Youngblood
i) Melba Christina Nichols
j) Melba Charles Nichols
k) Rose Lea Stewart
l) Connie Mackey
m) Penny Sue Marcades
n) Melba Marcades
o) Rita Lane
p) Zada Marie Johnson
q) Zada Marie Gano
r) Zada Irene Scars
s) Zada Lynn Gano
t) Zada Garacino
u) Marie Stewart
v) Zada Marie Green
w) Rose Elaine Evans
x) Rose Elaine Edwards
y) Rose Elaine Cherami
z) Rose Marie Evans
aa) Rosalee Cherami
bb) Rose Cherami
cc) Rose L. Cherami
dd) Roselle Jeanne Crawford
ee) Roselle Renee Cherami
ff) Rozella Clinkscales
gg) All of the above
The answer, of course, is gg, better known as Rose Cheramie.
Patricia Orr of the HSCA writes, "According to accounts of assassinations
researchers, a woman known as Rose Cheramie, a heroin addict and prostitute
with a long history of arrests, was found on November 20, 1963, lying on the
road near Eunice, La., bruised and disoriented. She was taken to the Louisiana
State Hospital in Jackson, La., to recover from her injuries and what appeared
to be narcotics withdrawal. Cheramie reportedly told the attending physician
that President Kennedy was going to be killed during his forthcoming visit to
Dallas. The doctor did not pay much attention to the ravings of a patient going
"cold turkey" until after the President was assassinated 2 days later. State
police were called in and Cheramie was questioned at length. She reportedly
told police officers she had been a stripper in Jack Ruby's night club and was
transporting a quantity of heroin from Florida to Houston at Ruby's insistence
when she quarreled with two men also participating in the dope run. Cheramie
said the men pushed her out of a moving vehicle and left her for dead. After
the assassination, Cheramie maintained Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald had known
each other well. She said she had seen Oswald at Ruby's night club and claimed
Oswald and Ruby had been homosexual partners" ("The Bizarre Deaths Following
JFK's Murder," Argosy. March 1977, Vol. 384, No.8, p.52 [JFK Document No.
002559].
"Cheramie died of injuries received from an automobile accident on a strip of
highway near Big Sandy, Tex., in the early morning of September 4, 1965. The
driver stated Cheramie had been lying in the roadway and although he attempted
to avoid hitting her, he ran over the top of her skull, causing fatal injuries.
An investigation into the accident and the possibility of a relationship
between the victim and the driver produced no evidence of foul play. The case
was closed" (Louisiana State Police Memo, from Lt. Francis Fruge, Parish of St.
Landry, April 4, 1967 [JFK Document No. 013520]).
The story has problems on its face. If state police were called in to question
Cheramie, where is the report of this questioning? The HSCA did not obtain any
such report. In fact, the HSCA was unable to cite a single document of any kind
from 1963. Anyone looking for information on Cheramie in the Warren
Commission's records will find not a single scrap of paper; no one brought
Cheramie to their attention in 1964. There is, in fact, not a single quotation
from Ms. Cheramie to be found anywhere, not a single contemporaneous report of
an interview with her, or a single report describing her story from any date
prior to her death.
How can this be? How could Lt. Fruge not have filed a report on this most
unusual individual? How can he have avoided filing a routine report at all? And
why did he not alert the FBI, Secret Service or Warren Commission about
Cheramie's statements? Why is it only after her death that her story seems to
have been told?
And it turns out that Fruge had a partner, someone we've never heard about.
On August 4, 1967, Andrew Sciambra and Francis Fruge interviewed Bobbie Dedon
at the State Hospital about Oswald's alleged visit there in the summer of 1963.
During the interview, Dedon mentioned that she recognized Fruge as one of the
two police officers who had picked up Cheramie after the assassination. She
recalled Fruge as having been with an "older person," which Fruge confirmed to
be true. The identity of this "older person" is unknown. Fruge never mentioned
this person to the HSCA, and doesn't seem to have mentioned him to Garrison's
office. While it cannot be stated with any degree of certainty, it's not wholly
unreasonable to think that if this person could have corroborated Fruge's
story, Fruge would have sought to get the man's statement on record (Andrew J.
Sciambra, Memorandum to Jim Garrison, January 29, 1968).
When did the Cheramie story first surface? Chris Mills writes:
"On 23 February 1967, Detective Frank Meloche sent a memorandum to Jim
Garrison, the then District Attorney of New Orleans. . . . The memorandum was
the statement of one Mr A. H. Magruder, who explained that, during the
Christmas holidays of 1963, he had been on a hunting trip with a Dr. Victor J.
Weiss. The two men had fallen into conversation at Magruder's home, when Weiss
began to relate some curious events that had occurred at the East Louisiana
State Hospital around about the time of the assassination. Weiss allegedly
explained that he was one of the doctors who had treated a woman who was
brought in as a narcotics addict and who had supposedly been thrown from an
automobile. According to Magruder, Weiss then repeated the story the woman had
told to him, which varied little from that which Cheramie had told Fruge when
first interviewed. She included details of her employment by Ruby as a dope
runner and the plot to kill the President. . . . He asked Frank Meloche to
investigate further. The detective soon found that the woman Magruder had
referred to was Rose Cheramie, and before long he had the name of the state
trooper who had taken her to the Hospital. Now that Garrison had Fruge and all
the information that nobody had wanted four years previously, he needed to find
Cheramie. Fruge was detailed to work for Garrison. He met Meloche in Houston,
on 6 March 1967, and began to search for Ms. Cheramie. They were soon to be
disappointed. In Dallas, Meloche found a Mrs. Morris Wall who told him that her
sister, Melba Christine Marcades, was dead" (Frank Meloche, Memorandum to Jim
Garrison, March 13, 1967; Chris Mills, "Rambling Rose"
[http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt]).
Let's think about "mysterious deaths" for a minute. Cheramie died on September
4, 1965 -- almost two years after the assassination. I don't think the
propagators of the "mysterious deaths" myth are really thinking things through.
If Cheramie had any "dangerous knowledge," why in the world did the evil
conspirators let her live almost two solid years with this knowledge? Why
wasn't she whacked IMMEDIATELY? How come NONE of the "mysterious" decedents
were?
Let's look at the story from the beginning.
"Hospital records indicate Melba Christine Marcades, alias Rose Cheramie, was
brought to the State Hospital in Jackson, La. by police from Eunice on November
21, 1963 and officially admitted at 6 a.m" (East Louisiana State Hospital,
Jackson, La., records for Melba Christine Marcades AKA Rose Cheramie [JFK
Document No. 006097]; HSCA report).
"According to the clinical notes, the deputy accompanying Cheramie said the
patient had been 'picked up on [the] side of [the] road and had been given
something by the coroner.' The coroner in Eunice was contacted by doctors at
the hospital and he told them Cheramie had been coherent when he spoke with her
at 10:30 p.m., November 20, but he did administer a sedative. He further
indicated that Cheramie was a 9-year mainlining heroin addict, whose last
injection had been around 2 p.m., November 20. The doctors noted that
Cheramie's condition upon initial examination indicated heroin withdrawal and
clinical shock (Ibid.).
"Relevant to Cheramie's credibility was an assessment of her mental state. From
November 22 to November 24, Cheramie required close attention and medication"
(Ibid.).
Todd Vaughan has a different perspective: "Not only did Cheramie do time in the
mental ward of the Louisiana State Hospital (several times, including the
weekend of the assassination) she was a car thief, an arsonist, a drunk, a
junkie, a prostitute, a vagrant, and apparently a drug dealer of sorts. She was
also convicted of resisting arrest, aiding soliers to escape, larceny, and
charged with being 'criminally insane'" (Todd Vaughan, Newsgroup post of March
3, 1999).
"On November 25 she was transferred to the ward. On November 27 she was
released to Louisiana State Police Lieutenant Fruge (Op.cit.).
"The hospital records gave no reference as to alleged statements made by
Cheramie or why she was released to Lieutenant Fruge on November 27, 1963.
These records do indicate Cheramie had been hospitalized for alcoholism and
narcotics addiction on other occasions, including commitment to the same
hospital in March 1961 by the criminal court of New Orleans. During this stay,
the woman was diagnosed as '. . . without psychosis. However, because of her
previous record of drug addiction she may have a mild integrative and pleasure
defect.' Her record would show she has "intervals of very good behavior" but at
other times she "presents episodically psychopathic behavior" indicative in her
history of drug and alcohol abuse, prostitution, arrest on numerous, if minor,
charges (Ibid.).
"The committee interviewed one of the doctors on staff at East Louisiana State
Hospital who had seen Cheramie during her stay there at the time of the Kennedy
assassination. The doctor corroborated aspects of the Cheramie allegations. Dr.
Victor Weiss verified that he was employed as a resident physician at the
hospital in 1963. He recalled that on Monday, November 25, 1963, he was asked
by another physician, Dr. Bowers, to see a patient who had been committed
November 20 or 21. Dr. Bowers allegedly told Weiss that the patient, Rose
Cheramie, had stated before the assassination that President Kennedy was going
to be killed. Weiss questioned Cheramie about her statements. She told him she
had worked for Jack Ruby. She did not have any specific details of a particular
assassination plot against Kennedy, but had stated the 'word in the underworld'
was that Kennedy would be assassinated" (HSCA Contact Report, July 5, 1978, Bob
Buras, with Dr. Victor Weiss [JFK Document No. 009699]).
So even on the face of it, Cheramie is not alleged to have had "inside
knowledge" of an assassination plot. She herself is only alleged to have been
repeating hearsay. Note that there is also no basis for the common assertion
that Cheramie was abandoned for reasons involving the Kennedy assassination.
Incredibly, the HSCA never spoke to Dr. Bowers, never seems to have made any
attempt to contact him at all, and never so much as even learned his first
name!
Dr. Victor Weiss, then, becomes an even more crucial witness. Weiss told the
HSCA that this Dr. Bowers informed him after the assassination that Cheramie
had made statements about the President's death prior to the events in Dallas.
But documents in Jim Garrison's file on Cheramie tell a different story. A
March 13, 1967, interview informs us that Weiss was unable to recall whether
these alleged statements of Cheramie's had been made before or after the
assassination (Frank Meloche, Memorandum to Jim Garrison, March 13, 1967).
In 1967, Weiss COULD NOT CORROBORATE that Cheramie had predicted the
assassination.
"Francis Fruge, a lieutenant with the Louisiana State Police in 1963, was the
police officer who first came to Cheramie's assistance on November 20, 1963,
had her committed to the State Hospital, and later released her into his
custody following the assassination to investigate her allegations (HSCA
Contact Report, April 7, 1978, Bob Buras, with Francis Louis Fruge, p. 1 [JFK
Document No. 014141]). As such, he provided an account further detailing her
allegations and the official response to her allegations (HSCA report).
"Fruge was deposed by the committee on April 18, 1978. He told the committee he
was called on November 20, 1963 by an administrator at a private hospital in
Eunice, La. that a female accident victim had been taken there for treatment.
She had been treated for minor abrasions, and although she appeared to be under
the influence of drugs, since she had "no financial basis," she was to be
released. Fruge did what he normally did in such instances. As the woman
required no further medical attention, he put her in a jail cell to sober up.
This arrangement did not last long. The woman began to display severe symptoms
of withdrawal. Fruge said he called a doctor, who sedated Cheramie and Fruge
transported Cheramie to the State hospital in Jackson, La. (Ibid.).
"Fruge said that during the '1 to 2 hour' ride to Jackson, he asked Cheramie
some 'routine' questions. Fruge told the committee: 'She related to me that she
was coming from Florida to Dallas with women who were Italians or resembled
Italians. They had stopped at this lounge . . . and they'd had a few drinks and
had gotten into an argument or something. The manager of the lounge threw her
out and she got on the road and hitchhiked to catch a ride, and this is when
she got hit by a vehicle (Ibid.).
"Fruge said the lounge was a house of prostitution called the Silver Slipper.
Fruge asked Cheramie what she was going to do in Dallas: 'She said she was
going to, number one, pick up some money, pick up her baby, and to kill
Kennedy.' Fruge claimed during these intervals that Cheramie related the story
she appeared to be quite lucid. Fruge had Cheramie admitted to the hospital
late on November 20" (Ibid.).
"On November 22, when he heard the President had been assassinated, Fruge said
he immediately called the hospital and told them not to release Cheramie until
he had spoken to her. The hospital administrators assented but said Fruge would
have to wait until the following Monday before Cheramie would be well enough to
speak to anyone. Fruge waited. Under questioning, Cheramie told Fruge that the
two men traveling with her from Miami were going to Dallas to kill the
President. For her part, Cheramie was to obtain $8,000 from an unidentified
source in Dallas and proceed to Houston with the two men to complete a drug
deal. Cheramie was also supposed to pick up her little boy from friends who had
been looking after him (Ibid.).
"Cheramie further supplied detailed accounts of the arrangement for the drug
transaction in Houston. She said reservations had been made at the Rice Hotel
in Houston. The trio was to meet a seaman who was bringing in 8 kilos of heroin
to Galveston by boat. Cheramie had the name of the seaman and the boat he was
arriving on. Once the deal was completed, the trio would proceed to Mexico
(Ibid.).
"Fruge told the committee that he repeated Cheramie's story to his supervisors
and asked for instructions. He was told to follow up on it. Fruge promptly took
Cheramie into custody-as indicated in hospital records-and set out to check her
story (Ibid.; East Louisiana State hospital, Jackson, La., records for Melba
Christine Marcades AKA Rose Cheramie [JFK Document No. 006097]).
He contacted the chief customs agent in Galveston who reportedly verified the
scheduled docking of the boat and the name of the seaman. Fruge believed the
customs agent was also able to verify the name of the man in Dallas who was
holding Cheramie's son. Fruge recalled that the customs agent had tailed the
seaman as he disembarked from the boat, but then lost the man's trail. Customs
closed the case (HSCA Deposition of Francis Louis Fruge, April 18, 1978, p.20
[JFK Document No. 014570]).
Fruge had also hoped to corroborate other statements made by Cheramie. During a
flight from Houston, according to Fruge, Cheramie noticed a newspaper with
headlines indicating investigators had not been able to establish a
relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Cheramie laughed at the
headline, Fruge said. Cheramie told him she had worked for Ruby, of "Pinky," as
she knew him, at his night club in Dallas and claimed Ruby and Oswald "had been
shacking up for years. (Ibid. Note: Fruge also indicated the Club was called
the "Pink Door," although Ruby is not known to have ever had a club by this
name. See also, Louisiana State Police Memo., April 4, 1967, from Lt. Francis
Fruge, Parish of St. Landry, in JFK Document No. 013520). Fruge said he called
Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department with this information. Fritz
answered, he wasn't interested. Fritz and the Louisiana State Police dropped
the investigation into the matter (Ibid.).
Todd Vaughan writes about "a 4 April 67 memorandum to Garrison that Lt. Fruge
wrote dealing with Fruge's investigation into Cheramie's death. In that memo
Fruge relates what Cheramie told him directly on the plane en route to Houston,
post Ruby shooting Oswald, about Oswald and Ruby knowing each other, being 'bed
partners,' etc. Fruge says NOTHING about her saying ANYTHING to him about
ANYTHING before the assassination (Todd Vaughan, Newsgroup post of March 9,
1999).
"But here is the linchpin: Fruge closes the memo with 'Other statements made by
subject, relative to your inquiry, are hear-say, but are available, upon your
request'" (Ibid.).
"That sentence is crucial, for if Cheramie had actually 'predicted' the
assassination on the 20th of November in front of Fruge, he would NEVER have
written that 'other statements' by her were 'hear-say'" (Ibid.).
Considering that it was already Jim Garrison's theory was that the
assassination of John F. Kennedy was a "homosexual thrill-killing," as he told
more than one journalist, Fruge's report should be viewed with some skepticism.
"During the course of the New Orleans DA's investigation Fruge was able to
pursue leads in the Cheramie case that he had not checked out in the original
investigation. Although there appeared to be different versions as to how
Cheramie ended up by the side of the road, and the number and identity of her
companions, Fruge attempted to corroborate the version she had given him. Fruge
spoke with the owner of the Silver Slipper Lounge. The bar owner, a Mr. Mac
Manual since deceased, told Fruge that Cheramie had come in with two men who
the owner knew as pimps engaged in the business of hauling prostitutes in from
Florida. When Cheramie became intoxicated and rowdy, one of the men 'slapped
her around' and threw her outside (Op.cit.; see also HSCA Contact Report, April
7, 1978, Bob Buras, with Francis Louis Fruge, [JFK Document No. 0141414]).
"Fruge claims that he showed the owner of the bar a 'stack' of photographs and
mug shots to identify. According to Fruge the barowner chose the photos of a
Cuban exile, Sergio Arcacha Smith, and another Cuban Fruge believed to be named
Osanto" (Ibid.).
The Committee had a field day linking Arcacha to Dave Ferrie and Carlos
Marcello. However, simply put, the identification is false. Sergio Arcacha
Smith was an anti-Castro activist with the support of the Justice Department.
He was not a pimp or a narcotics smuggler. He left New Orleans in October 1962,
and moved to Miami. From there he moved to Houston in January 1963, and took a
job as an air conditioning salesman in March 1963 (David Blackburst, Newsgroup
post of November 22, 1997).
". . . Arcacha Smith, however, denied any knowledge of Cheramie and her
allegations. Other avenues of corroboration of Fruge's identification of
Cheramie's traveling companion as Sergio Arcacha Smith and further
substantiation of Cheramie's allegations remained elusive" (Op.cit.).
In other words, there was no corroborating evidence that Arcacha ever met Rose
Cheramie. From all that is known about Arcacha, it is nearly impossible to
believe he would. Since NODA had no cause to consider Arcacha a suspect, the
mere use of Arcacha's photo for identification purposes would have been
questioned by any court.
"US Customs was unable to locate documents and reports related to its
involvement in the Cheramie investigation although such involvement was not
denied. Nor could customs officials locate those agents named by Fruge as
having participated in the original investigation, as they had since left the
employ of the agency" (See Staff Memo., Rose Cheramie File, contact with Dennis
Cronin, US Customs [JFK Document No. 013520]).
In other words, there was not a shred of paper to corroborate Fruge's story
about a Customs investigation of Rose Cheramie.
"Since the FBI had never been notified by the Louisiana State Police and US
Customs of their interest in Cheramie, the FBI file did not have any reference
to the Cheramie allegations of November 1963" (See FBI file no. 166-1604 for
Melba Christine Marcades, Vol. 1 of 1 [JFK Document No. 012979]).
Again, there is no evidence to support Fruge's claims.
"FBI files did give reference to the investigation of a tip from Melba
Mercades, actually Rose Cheramie, in Ardmore, Okla. that she was en route to
Dallas to deliver $2,600 worth of heroin to a man in Oak Cliff, Tex. She was
then to proceed to Galveston, Tex., to pick up a load of narcotics from a
seaman on board a ship destined for Galveston in the next few days. She gave
'detailed descriptions as to individuals, names, places, and amounts
distributed.' Investigations were conducted by narcotics bureaus in Oklahoma
and Texas and her information was found to be "erroneous in all respects"
(Ibid.).
In other words, Cheramie tried to present herself as a narcotics informant, and
failed miserably, because her information was completely false.
"A similar tale was told in 1965: FBI agents investigated a tip from Rozella
Clinkscales, alias Melba Marcades, alias Rose Cheramie. Like the stories told
in 1963, Cheramie-Clinkscales claimed individuals associated with the syndicate
were running prostitution rings in several southern cities such as Houston and
Galveston, Tex., Oklahoma City, Okla. and Montgomery, Ala. by transporting
hookers, including Cheramie-Clinkscales, from town to town. Furthermore, she
claimed she had information about a heroin deal operating from a New Orleans
ship. A call to the Coast Guard verified an ongoing narcotics investigation of
the ship. Other allegations made by Cheramie-Clinkscales could not be verified.
Further investigation into Cheramie-Clinkscales revealed she had apparently
previously furnished the FBI false information concerning her involvement in
prostitution and narcotics matters and that she had been confined to a mental
institution in Norman, Okla. on three occasions. FBI agents decided to pursue
the case no further. The FBI indicated agents did not know of the death of
their informant on September 4, 1965, occurring just 1 month after she had
contacted the FBI. Louisiana State Police investigating Cheramie's fatal
accident also apparently did not know of the FBI's interest in her" (FBI
166-1604-1, November 23, 1965).
Once again, Cheramie tried to furnish information to the FBI. It turned out to
be valid but useless in one respect and unverifiable otherwise.
Now, this strikes me as a little odd. How come Cheramie kept trying to become
an informant with all this useless information, and never once opened her mouth
about the one bit of VALUABLE knowledge she's supposed to have possessed?
Was it too "dangerous"?
How come she would eagerly volunteer this "dangerous knowledge" to Fruge, his
unidentified partner, this Dr. Bowers, Dr. Weiss, and anyone else who would
listen to her that weekend, but never again to another soul, even when she had
two years in which to do so?
Was she too "terrified" to speak? If so, why wasn't she the least bit terrified
in 1963?
"In his report to Garrison, Fruge also stated that back in November 1963, when
Cheramie had been in police custody, she had volunteered "that she once worked
for Jack Ruby as a stripper, which was verified" (Lt. Francis Fruge, Statement
to Jim Garrison, April 4, 1967; Mills, "Rambling Rose").
Verified how, and by whom? Where's the evidence? Again, there's nothing to
support Fruge except Fruge's word. And Patricia Lambert has given us several
reasons to question Fruge's word (*False Witness,* 323 fn.), even if his
handling of the Cheramie matter wasn't suspicious enough. He seems to have
misled the HSCA about when he began work on Garrison's investigation, he helped
Garrison obscure the origin of the Clinton story by omitting mention of
investigator Anne Hundley Dischler and instead referring the Committee to
Andrew Sciambra, Dischler's replacement on the Clinton investigation, and he
claimed that prospective Clinton witness Andrew Dunn had been "one of the most
believable" of the Clinton witnesses, when in 1967, he'd argued against using
Dunn because of his alcoholism. (Dunn's statement to the DA's office is linked
to my Clinton article at [http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/clinton1.htm].)
One bit of misinformation that seems to be floating around concerns Cheramie's
death. Chris Mills writes that Cheramie's death certificate mentions a
"punctate stellate wound." Bob Vernon has made the same claim on this
newsgroup. But according to Todd Vaughan, the death certificate says no such
thing. Mills' source is J. Gary Shaw, "Case Closed" or Posner's Pompous &
Presumptuous Postulations," available on-line at:
http://roswell.fortunecity.com/angelic/96/pcissu5.htm
Shaw does not name a source.
I have obtained copies of the death certificate, and they contain no such
wound.
I'm waiting to hear from NARA about obtaining all they have on Rose Cheramie.
It looks like Garrison conned us yet again.
Sidenote:
On March 17, 1967, an informant named Tom Williams told an odd story to the New
Orleans DA's office about a Jackson, Louisiana, resident named Gladys Fletcher
Palmer. According to Williams, Palmer's ex-husband Matt -- nephew of KKK
Exalted Cyclops and Garrison witness Henry Earl Palmer -- said his ex-wife had
been employed by Jack Ruby in Dallas, and that two weeks before the
assassination, she had arrived in Jackson, driving a black Lincoln Continental,
then checked into the State Hospital for treatment of alcoholism. Two hours
before John F. Kennedy was killed, Gladys Palmer was alleged to have stated,
"This is the day of the president's assassination" (Claude B. Slaton, "Further
Feliciana Research," The Truth Is Redacted Website
[http://www.redacted.com/jcooper.htm]).
Claude Slaton investigated the story recently, and could find no substantiation
for the claims about working for Jack Ruby or predicting the assassination
(Ibid.).
The black Lincoln Continental seems to mirror the black Cadillac of Oswald's
alleged visit to Clinton, while the story of Mrs. Palmer seems strangely
reminiscent of Rose Cheramie, who is alleged to have spoken of the upcoming
assassination while experiencing symptoms of narcotics withdrawal in the
hospital.
There's more, but this'll have to do for now.
Dave Reitzes
Warrior
Dave Reitzes wrote in message
<19991018011011...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
assassinated. She was also arrested in okc. where I live. I believe it was
in 62 or later 63.
There is also a picture of here holding her child, when she was living in
texas. Its in one of the assassination books. Barbara
Martin Shackelford
Regarding Rose Cheramie:
1) No police report made at the time? Of course not--their assumption
prior to the assassination was that the woman was out of her mind. When
it happened, they began to re-think it. Fruge said he contacted Capt.
Fritz, but he weren't interested, so that may explain why he didn't
write it up afterwards.
2) No one claims that she didn't have an extensive police record (and
reiterating the point based on Todd Vaughn's newsgroup post doesn't add
to the knowledge base), or a great many aliases.
3) Clearly, some of what she said was wrong--but not all.
4) Fruge may not have mentioned his partner, the "older person," as a
corroborating witness because that person may have been deceased by
1967. You're assuming the person was available to talk to investigators.
You say Fruge didn't mention his partner, but when you say Bobbie Dedon
did, you add "which Fruge confirmed to be true," which sounds like he
DID mention his partner at some point.
5) The mysterious deaths issue is a side issue with regard to the issue
of foreknowledge.
6) I've seen quite a few reports from psychiatric institutions in the
course of my work; none include much in the way of details of what the
patient said; but tend to generalize based on the clinician's overall
impression of the TYPES of things the patient is saying.
7) We also need to recognize that a 1963 Louisiana psychiatric report
may be based on rather different assumptions that a psychiatric report
today.
8) Why Cheramie was dumped out of the car is also a side issue; she may
just have been drunk and out of control, and was discarded by two men
who were dissatisfied with her services.
9) It has not been claimed that she had inside knowledge of details of
the assassination plan; just that she had foreknowledge based on what
she had picked up from underworld sources.
10) That "Weiss COULD NOT CORROBORATE that Cheramie had predicted the
assassination" isn't news. He had already said the information was
secondhand from a Dr. Bowers. How could he corroborate his own
secondhand statement?
11) The story of men traveling from Miami to Dallas shortly before the
assassination and involved in the plot is rather similar to the story
independently told by Marita Lorenz later. The bar owner corroborated
that she was with two men from Florida.
12) Fruge seems to have corroborated a number of things Cheramie said.
13) Customs investigation records may have been under one of her other
aliases.
14) Why didn't Cheramie talk to the FBI about a conspiracy in the
Kennedy assassination? Maybe she didn't know much, or any specifics.
Maybe she didn't trust the FBI on that subject--recalling the state of
things in 1965. Maybe she said something and agents didn't write it
down, Hoover having declared the case solved. Ruby, as you'll recall,
also kept trying to become an FBI informant, and was also dropped
because he didn't provide anything useful.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Dave Reitzes
>prior to the assassination was that the woman was out of her mind. When
>it happened, they began to re-think it. Fruge said he contacted Capt.
>Fritz, but he weren't interested, so that may explain why he didn't
>write it up afterwards.
Surely you've seen by now that Fruge's word alone is not enough.
>2) No one claims that she didn't have an extensive police record (and
>reiterating the point based on Todd Vaughn's newsgroup post doesn't add
>to the knowledge base), or a great many aliases.
You don't think it has any bearing upon her credibility that she had been
diagnosed as "criminally insane" and possibly psychotic, and had been
institutionalized several times?
>3) Clearly, some of what she said was wrong--but not all.
Really? Name something she said that checked out -- and name your source.
>4) Fruge may not have mentioned his partner, the "older person," as a
>corroborating witness because that person may have been deceased by
>1967. You're assuming the person was available to talk to investigators.
>You say Fruge didn't mention his partner, but when you say Bobbie Dedon
>did, you add "which Fruge confirmed to be true," which sounds like he
>DID mention his partner at some point.
Fruge's still alive, Martin. You want to pursue this point with him -- if you
believe he's credible.
>5) The mysterious deaths issue is a side issue with regard to the issue
>of foreknowledge.
What foreknowledge did Cheramie have, and what is your source?
>6) I've seen quite a few reports from psychiatric institutions in the
>course of my work; none include much in the way of details of what the
>patient said; but tend to generalize based on the clinician's overall
>impression of the TYPES of things the patient is saying.
Same question as above.
>7) We also need to recognize that a 1963 Louisiana psychiatric report
>may be based on rather different assumptions that a psychiatric report
>today.
Same question as above.
>8) Why Cheramie was dumped out of the car is also a side issue;
Then why bring it up?
she may
>just have been drunk and out of control, and was discarded by two men
>who were dissatisfied with her services.
>
>9) It has not been claimed that she had inside knowledge of details of
>the assassination plan; just that she had foreknowledge based on what
>she had picked up from underworld sources.
That's what I said. Is that consistent with "foreknowledge"?
>10) That "Weiss COULD NOT CORROBORATE that Cheramie had predicted the
>assassination" isn't news. He had already said the information was
>secondhand from a Dr. Bowers. How could he corroborate his own
>secondhand statement?
It was Bowers' statement that Weiss could not corroborate, Martin -- he could
not remember whether Cheramie had said anything to Bowers before or after the
assassination. How many times do I have to post this information before you
actually read it?
>11) The story of men traveling from Miami to Dallas shortly before the
>assassination and involved in the plot is rather similar to the story
>independently told by Marita Lorenz later.
Oh, that's a BIG credibility boost, Martin. Are you saying that there were two
independent caravans? And that Cheramie and Lorenz are *both* credible
witnesses?
The bar owner corroborated
>that she was with two men from Florida.
I don't recall this being in dispute, Martin.
>12) Fruge seems to have corroborated a number of things Cheramie said.
Read the HSCA report and check the footnotes. If the HSCA says that something
of Fruge's was corroborated, but the footnote refers only to Fruge's own
testimony, how trustworthy would you say the HSCA's conclusions are?
Let's face it, Martin -- when the HSCA concluded things we wanted to hear, we
didn't check their sources too carefully, did we?
>13) Customs investigation records may have been under one of her other
>aliases.
I'm not interested in such speculation, Martin. You yourself have cited
Cheramie as a credible witness; it is up to you to justify doing so with facts,
not speculation.
>14) Why didn't Cheramie talk to the FBI about a conspiracy in the
>Kennedy assassination? Maybe she didn't know much, or any specifics.
>Maybe she didn't trust the FBI on that subject--recalling the state of
>things in 1965.
Martin, do you or do you not believe that Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby were
lovers? If you do not, why do you consider Cheramie a credible witness, when
her statement was one of the few that she is alleged to have claimed came from
first-hand knowledge?
Maybe she said something and agents didn't write it
>down,
Sure, Martin, just as with other "witnesses" like Reeves Morgan and Ed Hoffman,
right?
Hoover having declared the case solved. Ruby, as you'll recall,
>also kept trying to become an FBI informant, and was also dropped
>because he didn't provide anything useful.
>
>Martin
Is that supposed to be inconsistent with the LN line?
Martin, why not just admit that the story is an article of faith, and that you
choose to believe it? That would be honest, and no one could deny you your
right to so choose -- just as believing Ruby a conspirator is an article of
faith, and you choose to believe that as well.
You might want to consider some wise things two philosophers have said:
>"You're going to find that many of the truths we
> cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> -Obi-Wan Kenobi
>
>"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Dave
recalled Fruge as having been with an "older person," which Fruge confirmed to
Now, this strikes me as a little odd. How come Cheramie kept trying to become
an informant with all this useless information, and never once opened her mouth
about the one bit of VALUABLE knowledge she's supposed to have possessed?
Was it too "dangerous"?
How come she would eagerly volunteer this "dangerous knowledge" to Fruge, his
unidentified partner, this Dr. Bowers, Dr. Weiss, and anyone else who would
listen to her that weekend, but never again to another soul, even when she had
two years in which to do so?
Was she too "terrified" to speak? If so, why wasn't she the least bit terrified
in 1963?
"In his report to Garrison, Fruge also stated that back in November 1963, when
Cheramie had been in police custody, she had volunteered "that she once worked
for Jack Ruby as a stripper, which was verified" (Lt. Francis Fruge, Statement
to Jim Garrison, April 4, 1967; Mills, "Rambling Rose").
Verified how, and by whom? Where's the evidence? Again, there's nothing to
support Fruge except Fruge's word. And Patricia Lambert has given us several
reasons to question Fruge's word (*False Witness,* 323 fn.), even if his
handling of the Cheramie matter wasn't suspicious enough. He seems to have
misled the HSCA about when he began work on Garrison's investigation, he helped
Garrison obscure the origin of the Clinton story by omitting mention of
investigator Anne Hundley Dischler and instead referring the Committee to
Andrew Sciambra, Dischler's replacement on the Clinton investigation, and he
claimed that prospective Clinton witness Andrew Dunn had been "one of the most
believable" of the Clinton witnesses, when in 1967, he'd argu he'd argued
Warrior
Dave Reitzes wrote in message
>>From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
>>1) No police report made at the time? Of course not--their assumption
>>prior to the assassination was that the woman was out of her mind. When
>>it happened, they began to re-think it. Fruge said he contacted Capt.
>>Fritz, but he weren't interested, so that may explain why he didn't
>>write it up afterwards.
happened;;
>Dave is not well real bright on alot of this; barbara
bobwh...@my-deja.com
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
In article <19991019011944...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
Rose Cheramie is far more credible than Dave Reitzes, and that's a fact:
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
> Rose Cheramie is far more credible than Dave Reitzes, and that's a
fact:
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
bobwh...@my-deja.com
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
In article <19991019011944...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
drei...@aol.com (Dave Reitzes) wrote:
> >From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
> >1) No police report made at the time? Of course not--their assumption
> >prior to the assassination was that the woman was out of her mind.
When
> >it happened, they began to re-think it. Fruge said he contacted Capt.
> >Fritz, but he weren't interested, so that may explain why he didn't
> >write it up afterwards.
> Rose Cheramie is far more credible than Dave Reitzes, and that's a
fact:
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
> Surely you've seen by now that Fruge's word alone is not enough.
bobwh...@my-deja.com
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/breathe1/jfk.html
In article <7uh0c2$nlc$1...@ionews.ionet.net>,
Dave Reitzes
> drei...@aol.com (Dave Reitzes) wrote:
[snips for space]
>> 166-1604 for Melba Christine Marcades, Vol. 1 of 1 [JFK Document No.
>> witnesses, when in 1967, he'd argued against using Dunn because of his
>> alcoholism. (Dunn's statement to the DA's office is linked to my
>Clinton
>> article at [http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/clinton1.htm].)
[snip for space]
>Dave, Thank you for the excellent information, joisa.
You're very welcome. The current issue of *Probe* has a cover story on Cheramie
as well. Author Jim DiEugenio believes the Cheramie story credible, though the
evidence he presents is not terribly persuasive, IMO. For example, he presents
another "witness" named Dr. Wayne Owens; DiEugenio doesn't report that Owens
later clarified that he had only heard the Cheramie story from a second- or
third-hand hearsay account -- he was not the first-hand witness DiEugenio
claims. DiEugenio also reports an intriguing rumor about a number of women
(unnamed, of course) who were allegedly watching television with Cheramie when
Cheramie announced the assassination was about to take place. Since there was
no live TV coverage of the motorcade, DiEugenio theorizes that the telecast
itself was incidental to the story; he never asks why statements weren't taken
from the alleged first-hand witnesses to Cheramie's remarkable prediction.
Lisa Pease also wrote a sidebar to DiEugenio's article, dredging up all the
shameful rumors about Sergio Arcacha Smith that Garrison's office started.
Arcacha was working directly for Robert Kennedy, and was a personal friend of
RFK's. (See Gus Russo's *Live by the Sword* for details. Some of Russo's
information about New Orleans and the Cuban situation is tough to digest, but
it seems to check out.)
It's possible *Probe* will make these articles available on-line eventually --
their Web site hasn't been updated since May.
Dave
Martin Shackelford
You raised the issue, Dave.
This isn't a primary focus of my research, and tracking down
Fruge isn't one of my priorities.
People here seem to love to tell other people what to research.
I'm sure that Ruby was a conspirator, but perhaps not in the way
you think I do. And it's not based on "faith."
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
David B Henschel
>Dave:
> Regarding Rose Cheramie:
>1) No police report made at the time? Of course not--their assumption
>prior to the assassination was that the woman was out of her mind. When
>it happened, they began to re-think it. Fruge said he contacted Capt.
>Fritz, but he weren't interested, so that may explain why he didn't
>write it up afterwards.
>2) No one claims that she didn't have an extensive police record (and
>reiterating the point based on Todd Vaughn's newsgroup post doesn't add
>to the knowledge base), or a great many aliases.
>3) Clearly, some of what she said was wrong--but not all.
But what's so remarkable about her saying the part she got right?
She said the president would be assassinated. Granted, the last
presidential killing before JFK was McKinley's, 62 years prior.
That event meant nothing to a drug-using prostitute of Cheramie's
generation. But still, she might have remembered the notorious
1950 attempt on Harry Truman in which a Secret Service officer
sacrificed his life. His funeral was big news, even for kids.
And the day Cheramie made her prediction was in the middle of the
Cold War, barely a year after the Cuban Missle Crisis. Maybe she
fabricated her story because her emotional problems made her want
to say something grandiose. Is it possible certain zonked-out
Americans said shortly before Pearl Harbor that the United States
would enter a war? If they predicted the Japanese would attack
Pearl Harbor, that's one thing, but if they simply said "we will
be at war next week," how mysterious is that?
Same goes for Cheramie. The only detail she offered before the
event is that it would take place in Dallas. She could have
learned from newspapers or the hospital TV set that JFK was
visiting five Texas cities. So she thought of something
hysterical to say to get attention, her subconscious strewn
with her generation's fear of nuclear holocaust and other
calamities such as the one that almost felled Harry Truman.
People admitted to state mental hospitals may be zonked out, but
they still don't want to become statistics. They want the
illusion that someone cares. So some patients do things to get
attention. Right now some patients may be screaming about what
Y2K will bring, but it's not likely that a woman in Cheramie's
condition 36 years ago could comprehend Y2K.
>4) Fruge may not have mentioned his partner, the "older person," as a
>corroborating witness because that person may have been deceased by
>1967. You're assuming the person was available to talk to investigators.
>You say Fruge didn't mention his partner, but when you say Bobbie Dedon
>did, you add "which Fruge confirmed to be true," which sounds like he
>DID mention his partner at some point.
>5) The mysterious deaths issue is a side issue with regard to the issue
>of foreknowledge.
>6) I've seen quite a few reports from psychiatric institutions in the
>course of my work; none include much in the way of details of what the
>patient said; but tend to generalize based on the clinician's overall
>impression of the TYPES of things the patient is saying.
>7) We also need to recognize that a 1963 Louisiana psychiatric report
>may be based on rather different assumptions that a psychiatric report
>today.
>8) Why Cheramie was dumped out of the car is also a side issue; she may
>just have been drunk and out of control, and was discarded by two men
>who were dissatisfied with her services.
>9) It has not been claimed that she had inside knowledge of details of
>the assassination plan; just that she had foreknowledge based on what
>she had picked up from underworld sources.
>10) That "Weiss COULD NOT CORROBORATE that Cheramie had predicted the
>assassination" isn't news. He had already said the information was
>secondhand from a Dr. Bowers. How could he corroborate his own
>secondhand statement?
>11) The story of men traveling from Miami to Dallas shortly before the
>assassination and involved in the plot is rather similar to the story
>independently told by Marita Lorenz later. The bar owner corroborated
>that she was with two men from Florida.
>12) Fruge seems to have corroborated a number of things Cheramie said.
>13) Customs investigation records may have been under one of her other
>aliases.
>14) Why didn't Cheramie talk to the FBI about a conspiracy in the
>Kennedy assassination? Maybe she didn't know much, or any specifics.
>Maybe she didn't trust the FBI on that subject--recalling the state of
>things in 1965. Maybe she said something and agents didn't write it
>down, Hoover having declared the case solved. Ruby, as you'll recall,
>also kept trying to become an FBI informant, and was also dropped
>because he didn't provide anything useful.
>Martin
art guerrilla
you are a piece of work,
daves ver 1 & 2...
ann awed archy
eof