BF (not BS) again
Will Sill
In the interest of accurate reporting of an ongoing UAMIBFE
(Unscientific And Mostly Irrelevant Brake Fluid Experiment)
I must not report that what started in late June as a 50-50 mixture of
BF & water in an open mason jar remains under periodic scrutiny.
The latest is that the volume of said mixture has now shrunk 31%,
proving to all but the most obstinate skeptics that BF does NOT
indefinitely absorb water from the atmosphere. Nor is there the
slightest sign of cloudiness/milkiness - nor of any settling - in the
uniformly apple-juice-like appearance of the mix. Nor are either of
the two mild steel 1/4-20 nuts (added to test ideas about rust in BF)
visibly oxidized.
::sigh::
If you are among the intellectually curious thousands following this
undramatic inquiry into the unknown, please have patience. Sometime
before Hell freezes over I predict one or both of those nuts will get
rusty, lending a small touch of drama to this heretofore unremarkable
experiment.
DISCLAIMER:
My advice is useless. I have no university degrees and
have never towed a 34' TT with an Intrepid. Though I have
done some near-Darwin-award dumb things in the past, and
often still make errors, I currently own NO Banks headers,
fuel magnets, deer whistles, "Smart" solenoids or louvered
tailgates. I've never deliberately allowed a holding tank to
freeze solid, and have no financial interest in whether you
join RVCG, wear clothes, overinflate your tires or hate
Firestone. If you take my advice, I guarantee absolutely NOTHING.
Got that?
Will Sill KD3XR
Mo
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:0l38muob80pb1f2n8...@4ax.com...
Dang it Will - there you go again! Dint ya never larn that logic is useless
here?
;o)
Mo
Will Sill
>Dang it Will - there you go again! Dint ya never larn that logic is useless
>here?
>;o)
I larn slo.
But I do 'larn' eventually. For example, not to expect a retraction
or apology from bozos spreading bad information such as : BF absorbs
10% water per year; gets milky when water gets in; stores bubbles;
makes it's own water when heated; makes water go to the bottom to
rust wheel cylinders; and of course that water gets into the BF
through hoses.
Logic is a much rarer commodity than you might think - almost as rare
as integrity!
Will KD3XR
agcysrvcs
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> submits, apparently in all seriousness,
news:0l38muob80pb1f2n8...@4ax.com...
Will, you should send that to "Scientific American."
I bet they would make it a leading article.
I think it IS.....BS.
Mike D.
ben hogland
subject to considerable experimental manipulation. Rusting requires oxygen
whether absorbed by a liquid or in the air. Having the nuts fully immersed
versus partially immersed can make a big difference. The amount of oxygen
absorbed by the BF also could make a difference, shaken up VS sitting idly with
no movement. Hell, I don't know, I'm no chemist, but there could be other
factors.. Not rusting at all makes no sense since we all know that brake
cylinders will rust and generally turn the fluid darker in color as a result.
Ben
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:0l38muob80pb1f2n8...@4ax.com...
>
RVnNOW
>Dang it Will - there you go again! Dint ya never larn that logic is useless
>here?
>;o)
>Mo
>
Dang it Mo-there you go again! Dint ya never larn that it's a riot watching the
logic impaired dance around it?
Lon
RVnNOW
>Not rusting at all makes no sense since we all know that brake
>cylinders will rust and generally turn the fluid darker in color as a result.
>
>Ben
>
Some of us know that brake fluid makes a GREAT substitute for "Liquid Wrench"
for the purpose of cutting rust. It is no surprise to me that metal isn't
rusting when submersed in brake fluid. Brake cylinders will NOT rust becaue of
contact with brake fluid.
Lon, who has used brake fluid to break loose rusted bolts on numerous
occasions.
ben hogland
"RVnNOW" <rvn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020821212344...@mb-de.aol.com...
>
> Some of us know that brake fluid makes a GREAT substitute for "Liquid Wrench"
> for the purpose of cutting rust. It is no surprise to me that metal isn't
> rusting when submersed in brake fluid. Brake cylinders will NOT rust becaue of
> contact with brake fluid.
Of course not, rust is cause by many things. BF alone is not one of them.. So
when you get dark brake fluid, it isn't due to rust?
Ben
RVnNOW
>Of course not, rust is cause by many things. BF alone is not one of them.. So
>when you get dark brake fluid, it isn't due to rust?
>
>Ben
>
I really don't know. Did you pee in it?
Lon, who can't diagnose the problem with the information at hand.
Cass
article in this month's edition is about how otherwise intelligent folks
come to a point of believing nonsense.
I may write an article for them describing the sheeple syndrome.
Any volunteers for case studies? There is plenty of subject material in
here.
Cass
"agcysrvcs" <agcy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:czW89.2053$HJ1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
ben hogland
> Lon, who can't diagnose the problem with the information at hand.
Thanks, that was my point.. Neither can I, I'm not a chemist..
Ben
John
"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:0l38muob80pb1f2n8...@4ax.com...
>
Lee K
"Cass" <casseg...@galaxycorp.com> wrote in message
news:ak1f8l$78d$0...@pita.alt.net...
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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bill horne
>
> The corrosion of iron is well-studied, with many books published. Rusting is
> subject to considerable experimental manipulation. Rusting requires oxygen
> whether absorbed by a liquid or in the air. Having the nuts fully immersed
> versus partially immersed can make a big difference. The amount of oxygen
> absorbed by the BF also could make a difference, shaken up VS sitting idly with
> no movement. Hell, I don't know, I'm no chemist, but there could be other
> factors.. Not rusting at all makes no sense since we all know that brake
> cylinders will rust and generally turn the fluid darker in color as a result.
>
> Ben
What can I say? Will started with 50% water in an open container, and
has no rust. I started with 25% water in a closed container, and have no
rust. From previous tests, I know that a nail in plain water will begin
to have visible rust in less than 24 hours.
But the most interesting thing to me in the BF discussions is that
practically all of the people who vehemently insisted that BF should be
periodically changed, have apparently never done it.
And I stand by my original claim:
If the manual or manufacturer for your vehicle says change the BF
periodically, do so. If not, leave it alone.
Gm tells me that it's not necessary to change it periodically, so I
don't. Mazda told me to do it, so I did. But I think it was a waste of
time, and I only did it twice.
And I'll suggest again that you consider changing the BF in any
previously owned vehicle you buy. No telling what the bozo before you
contaminated the system with in his efforts to periodically change it.
The only brake hydraulic system problems I've EVER had were with
previously owned vehicles, and I had a problem with EVERY one. I've
NEVER had a BF problem with a vehicle I bought new, and one of them is
now 19 years old. But maybe that's just a coincidence, huh?
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
bill horne
Is it? Asking the question doesn't make it a fact. If my nail ever
rusts, maybe I can draw some conclusions. But I may not live long
enough.
bill horne
>
> Dude...you've got way too much time on your hands............
One of the advantages of being retired - and I like it much better than
not having enough....................
Cass
Plenty of meat here, though.
Are you volunteering? Let me hear you baaaah!
Cass
"Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d645...@corp.newsgroups.com...
ben hogland
"bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message news:3D64641F...@rye.net...
> ben hogland wrote:
> Is it? Asking the question doesn't make it a fact.
And who said it did? Is that a new way to somehow make a statement indicating
that it was indented that way? It was a question and had a question mark to
indicate it was a question as most question do.
Ben, Who also gets tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious.
Will Sill
>Dude...you've got way too much time on your hands............
I estimate that it takes approximately 5 minutes per week to look at a
mason jar and write prose about what one sees.
OTOH I should report that while wandering around a county fairgrounds
nearby, yrs trly sat upon one of the tractors on exhibit to rest the
bones. A small boy approached.
Boy: Do you work here, mister?
Self: Son, I don't work ANYwhere.
Boy: (With puzzled expression) O?
Self: Do you know what "retired" means?
Boy: Nope.
Self: It means "tired again"
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
>> The corrosion of iron is well-studied, with many books published. Rusting is
>> subject to considerable experimental manipulation. Rusting requires oxygen
>> whether absorbed by a liquid or in the air. Having the nuts fully immersed
>> versus partially immersed can make a big difference. The amount of oxygen
>> absorbed by the BF also could make a difference, shaken up VS sitting idly with
>> no movement. Hell, I don't know, I'm no chemist, but there could be other
>> factors.. Not rusting at all makes no sense since we all know that brake
>> cylinders will rust and generally turn the fluid darker in color as a result.
The purpose of experimentation is to learn what really happens, rather
than to rely on "many books" - the vast majority of which are written
by people parroting others' ideas and findings. It is good that Ben
admits "Hell, I don't know, I'm no chemist."
Why is it necessary to be a chemist to pour a 50/50 mixture of BF &
water in a mason jar and watch what happens. Do I need a degree in
space sciences to drop a nut in the bottom and dangle another from the
rim of the jar? Will my observations be scoffed at until they are
published in the Learned Journal of Pipsqueak BF Scientists?
Who is the "we" that knows that brake cylinders will rust? Under what
conditions have "we" seen it? I too have seen cruddy BF, and have
personally honed out old BC's and flushed out BF that apparently was
first poured in around 1940.
What started me on the current experiment was exactly the sort of
utter nonsense uttered by Ben & others - ideas that have little or no
credible basis in fact. It should be obvious to all but the oblivious
that my experiment is almost useless in terms of producing valuable
information for use in yer rv - but it has proven beyond any
reasonable doubt that SOME of the ideas trotted out by self-implied
authorities are unadulterated myths.
DISCLAIMER:
My advice is useless. I have no university degrees and have never
towed a 34' TT with an Intrepid. Though I have done some
near-Darwin-award dumb things in the past, and often still make
errors, I currently own NO Banks headers, fuel magnets, deer whistles,
"Smart" solenoids or louvered tailgates. I've never deliberately
allowed a holding tank to freeze solid, do not periodically or
unnecessarily change BF, and have no financial interest in whether you
Chris Bryant
>Dude...you've got way too much time on your hands............
>
Don't worry about it- the only purpose of this post is a
troll. I can think of no other reason to even bother with an
admittedly "Unscientific And Mostly Irrelevant Brake Fluid Experiment"
(should be completely irrelevant).
--
Chris Bryant
Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com
Will Sill
> Don't worry about it- the only purpose of this post is a
>troll. I can think of no other reason to even bother with an
>admittedly "Unscientific And Mostly Irrelevant Brake Fluid Experiment"
>(should be completely irrelevant).
It really gets your undies in a bunch, don't it, Chris!
That was not the purpose, but I can't say I feel bad that it annoyed
you. After all. I post to help rv'ers and annoy morons. Whichever
shoe fits, wear it.
Will KD3XR
bill horne
It's a lot like, "What did Bush know, and when did he know it?"
ben hogland
> ben hogland wrote:
> > Ben, Who also gets tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious.
>
> It's a lot like, "What did Bush know, and when did he know it?"
That's analogy is far fetched. You and will take offense, and it's obvious, to
anyone that asks question regarding this. It can be determined that rust is in
BF with a test, you can't give Bush a blood test to determine what he knew.
Don't think I'm doubting your experiment, or even the basis of the results. It's
a discussion and that's how I presented my reply. No need to find a way to make
it an offensive/defensive argument like you have.
Ben
ben hogland
> What started me on the current experiment was exactly the sort of
> utter nonsense uttered by Ben & others.
Wrong.. I didn't get into the subject until after you started your experiment
and I've said since the beginning "I Don't know".
Ben
bill horne
If the discoloration in the BF in the reservoir is rust, where does it
come from? The MC's in my 83 and 96 are not ferrous. I don't know about
the WC's, but if they are ferrous, and they do rust, how does that rust
climb back to the MC?
But the kicker for me is that GM says it "should last the life of the
vehicle unless it becomes contaminated", and there is no recommendation
in the service manual to periodically change it.
How would it become contaminated if it's supposed to "last the life of
the vehicle"? One way is opening the system to repair or replace part of
the hydraulic system - and GM says to replace the fluid when that's
done. Another way is crap getting in the reservoir because of frequent
removal of the cap to periodically peer into it. Yet another is not
exercising extreme care when unnecessarily periodically changing the BF.
And at the 2001 annual brake symposium, Ford says:
-------------------------------------------------------
Ford does not recommend changing DOT 3 fluid or flushing the system.
Ford says their recommendation is a "risk vs. benefit" assessment
because there's a potential for doing more damage than good.
--------------------------------------------------
risk exceeds benefit.
And:
--------------------------------------------------
Ford says their brake systems are engineered to tolerate brake fluid
contamination of up to three percent moisture without fluid boil (which
is close to the saturation point for DOT 3 brake fluid). If the fluid
has more moisture, it probably has some water in it and should be
changed.
Ford said they measured the water content in seven- to 10-year-old Ford
vehicles and found that the water content was actually quite low: only 1
to 1-1/2 percent. So based on their findings and the design target of
three percent water, they see no need to change the fluid for preventive
maintenance.
---------------------------------------------------
1-1.5% in 7 to 10 year old vehicles. Where's all this alleged brake line
osmosis?
Then the GM rep says:
--------------------------------------------------
GM's position of brake fluid is that they do not recommend changing it
on most vehicles. The only exceptions are Metro and Tracker models. GM
brake systems are sealed and should not need flushing. GM's goal is to
reduce maintenance requirements, not add them.
--------------------------------------------------
do not recommend. sealed.
DaimlerChrysler says:
---------------------------------------
With the exception of the Viper, all current domestic DaimlerChrysler
products use high temperature DOW 1000 DOT 3 brake fluid, which has a
boiling temperature of 550ûF and surpasses the government's minimum
performance requirements for DOT 3 brake fluid. DaimlerChrysler says
its fluid can absorb up to 3% water and still meet the DOT 3
specifications for boiling temperature.
Consequently, they see no reason to change the fluid for preventive
maintenance - contrary to most aftermarket recommendations.
-----------------------------------------
no reason to change
That's all pretty clear and unambiguous to me.
For the most part, the only folks who recommend periodic changing as
preventive maintenance are those who sell brake fluid or brake service -
and certain manufacturers.
So I stand where I was at the beginning - if the manufacturer of your
particular vehicle says change it, change it when they say change it.
Otherwise, you're likely to do more causing than preventing.
But y'all go ahead and change your BF periodically. If you have
problems, you can always console yourself by telling yourself, "Damn. I
didn't periodically change it often enough" - and just ignore the
possibility that you caused the problem by going counter to the clear
recommendations of GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
ben hogland
If the discoloration in the BF in the reservoir is rust, where does it
come from? The MC's in my 83 and 96 are not ferrous. I don't know about
the WC's, but if they are ferrous, and they do rust, how does that rust
climb back to the MC?
A good question that hasn't been answered but I would think it should be
answered before a conclusion is made. A test to see if it's rust would be
helpful. I extremely doubt people are dropping that much crud into the reservoir
to turn it that color even in the worst cases.
Ben
Will Sill
words, including:
>>You and will take offense, and it's obvious, to
>> anyone that asks question regarding this.
Bill horne <red...@rye.net> has repeatedly demonstrated ample skill
at speaking for himself, but I will be happy to say that Will (for
whom I DO speak) does not take offense when nitwits take offense at
information offered. I have learned, with the passage of time, not to
expect sensible answers from liberals and bozos. (In many cases the
two epithets are applicable to the same persons)
BIll sez:
>So I stand where I was at the beginning - if the manufacturer of your
>particular vehicle says change it, change it when they say change it.
>Otherwise, you're likely to do more causing than preventing.
>
>But y'all go ahead and change your BF periodically. If you have
>problems, you can always console yourself by telling yourself, "Damn. I
>didn't periodically change it often enough" - and just ignore the
>possibility that you caused the problem by going counter to the clear
>recommendations of GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
Will sez:
Ditto, plus a Bronx cheer to the self-appointed experts who persist in
spreading half-truths and outright falsehoods about BF and other
topics. I have already DISPROVED some of the myths easily with a
mason jar. But I realize some folks cannot accept reality.
Will KD3XR
bill horne
The only answers I need to draw a conclusion come from 40 years of
experience of no hydraulic system problems on vehicles I bought new, and
from the unambiguous recommendations of Ford, GM, and Chrysler.
Actually, all I need is the GM recommendation, since I don't own a Ford
or Chrysler.
Doc
RE: Re: BF (not BS) again
BY: "ben hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com>
>factors.. Not rusting at all makes no sense since we all know that brake
>cylinders will rust and generally turn the fluid darker in color as a result.
>Ben
-
I rebuild my own brakes usually. In all cases, I have not seen rust *inside*
the wheel cylinders between the pistons, UNLESS it has been leaking, ie. the
seal has been compromised. In the area between the piston and the end of the
cylinder I have seen rust and debris, usually when the rubber cap is damaged
although sometimes even when the cap is intact. But that can be explained by
the heat generated in braking burning any residue left behind by the piston's
movements. Most of the rust and dirt I have seen has been on the outside of
the cylinder, and since that is not a sealed area, all kinds of moisture and
road dirt can get in, as well as dust from the brake pads themselves.
-
The black fluid usually has a burnt smell to it and can easily be explained by
the burning of the fluid when the brakes get too hot. Since bleeding of the
lines only produces a small amount of black (or more usually darker) fluid, it
makes sense that the color is caused by localised heat, since rust/water should
affect more than just a small locallised percentage of the fluid.
-
Inside the master cylinder I have had some dirty or contaminated fluid, but I
also don't always add or check the fluid in the most sanitary conditions.
Also, the worst offenders of master cylinder contamination has always been
coupled with a leaky or damaged cylinder.
-
Only oddity so far was the front brakes on my truck, when bled a yellowish
fluid came out. Don't know what it is or where it came from and I am not going
to take it to a lab to find out. Its bled out now and gone. Since I am not
the first person to work on these brakes, it could have been something the last
owner did (and lord knows he did a lot of stupid things to this poor truck).
-
-
Origin: The Wild Wild West * 503-623-0185
ben hogland
I have learned, with the passage of time, not to
> expect sensible answers from liberals and bozos. (In many cases the
> two epithets are applicable to the same persons)
And I've come to expect that you will always be an asshole without a clue as to
what he's talking about half the time.
Ben
ben hogland
>
> The only answers I need to draw a conclusion come from 40 years of
> experience of no hydraulic system problems on vehicles I bought new, and
> from the unambiguous recommendations of Ford, GM, and Chrysler.
> Actually, all I need is the GM recommendation, since I don't own a Ford
> or Chrysler.
OK, but if you and Will are drawing conclusions about the experiment you are
both running as well, I'd think it would behoove you to understand all aspects
of it.. The experiment was to determine of rust would appear (I thought). I
gather it hasn't appeared and you are not getting any signs if darkening of the
BF. You and I both know that BF does get very dark in the MC on occasion. Why
does it get dark in the real application but not your experiment?
Ben
ben hogland
>
> The only answers I need to draw a conclusion come from 40 years of
> experience of no hydraulic system problems on vehicles I bought new, and
> from the unambiguous recommendations of Ford, GM, and Chrysler.
> Actually, all I need is the GM recommendation, since I don't own a Ford
> or Chrysler.
OK, but if you and Will are drawing conclusions about the experiment you are
both running as well, I'd think it would behoove you to understand all aspects
of it.. The experiment was to determine of rust would appear (I thought). I
gather it hasn't appeared and you are not getting any signs if darkening of the
BF. You and I both know that BF does get very dark in the MC on occasion. Why
does it get dark in the real application but not your experiment?
Ben
>
ben hogland
"Doc" <u...@n530.filenet.wwiv.net> wrote in message
news:3d6555...@wwivbbs.org...
That's the best explaination I've heard thus far.. Thanks. I'm wondering if the
brake fluid compromised when it heats up to the point of darkening?
Ben
Bob
day that their shop at every oil change sucks the BF out of the master
cylinder and replaces it with new. they claim that moisture gets into the
fluid as it heats and cools. Changing it helps to circulate clean fluid into
the lines and that cuts down on corrosion of the brake lines and cylinders.
Makes good sense to me>
"ben hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ak41rg$1ff9sd$1...@ID-62937.news.dfncis.de...
ace head
I have seen corrosion inside brake cylinders, too often. Some of
the darkness in the fluid , I think, comes from the black rubber parts
of the system. Fluid is mixed (lines to master cyl) ever time the
brakes are used.
Bill Horne, Will Sill, & LZ seem to sometimes run a tag team
match on topics, one invites comment on while the others assault
anyone that responds. I don't think its a conspiracy, just the way it
works out.
Mark
>the
>brake fluid compromised when it heats up to the point of darkening?
>
>Ben
Good question. But you'd probably not know it until you bled the brakes.
Mark
bill horne
I don't know. Maybe because it's not rust that makes it dark? Maybe
because it takes longer? And I've never heard a credible source tell me
that Dark is Bad. Not that there's much of a connection, but do you
change your motor oil as soon as it gets dark?
Or do you wait until morning?
Is your brake fluid dark?
bill horne
I was gonna answer this, but I had an attack of deja vu.
bill horne
>
> Will Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message news:<j9l9musoh7q0u0mue...@4ax.com>...
> > Chris Bryant <Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> recently wrote these words:
> >
> > > Don't worry about it- the only purpose of this post is a
> > >troll. I can think of no other reason to even bother with an
> > >admittedly "Unscientific And Mostly Irrelevant Brake Fluid Experiment"
> > >(should be completely irrelevant).
> >
> > It really gets your undies in a bunch, don't it, Chris!
> >
> > That was not the purpose, but I can't say I feel bad that it annoyed
> > you. After all. I post to help rv'ers and annoy morons. Whichever
> > shoe fits, wear it.
> >
> > Will KD3XR
>
> I have seen corrosion inside brake cylinders, too often.
Why were you in the brake cylinders?
> Some of
> the darkness in the fluid , I think, comes from the black rubber parts
> of the system.
I'll wager a half a Dog on that, myself.
> Fluid is mixed (lines to master cyl) ever time the
> brakes are used.
I'll hold off on that one.
> Bill Horne, Will Sill, & LZ seem to sometimes run a tag team
> match on topics, one invites comment on while the others assault
> anyone that responds. I don't think its a conspiracy, just the way it
> works out.
Funny, ain't it? Bring me a case of Dogs, and you can read my email. If
you can't find any evidence of collusion, you owe me a damned
refrigerator that works as well as everybody else's. And on top of that,
I can't even find a Coleman Extreme cooler.
But if it is a conspiracy, I'm payin' 'em too much, because they keep
turning on me.
bill horne
Or until you cook some in a pot. Maybe I'll do that later on as I
dispose of the sample from tonight's Frostee Temp test. I have a small
stainless steel pot and a Coleman stove with a refilled non-refillable
cylinder which should work just fine. Unfortunately, I can't use my
wife's cast iron stuff to cook brake fluid. I know that without even
asking.
But that doesn't address the assumption that appears to be rapidly on
the way to becoming accepted fact - That Dark is Bad. Is it? Why?
bill horne
Brake fluid heating.
Done. I simmered it for 10 minutes. The stuff really smokes.
It started off clear, and the color of apple cider, with no added water.
As it simmered, it steadily darkened, and ended up still clear, but dark
Reddish-brown. To try to give you a broad idea of what I mean by
"Reddish-brown", consider the possibilities of:
red
Reddish-brown
reddish-brown
reddish-Brown
brown
The only conclusions I can draw from that is that if you simmer it for
10 minutes in an open container in GA in August, it will turn a dark,
clear, Reddish-brown.
And here's an interesting thing: The label on the container of brake
fluid said - among other things - Change the fluid every 6 months. Yeah.
Right. Sure I will.
I have another container of BF - different brand - that says nothing
about changing the fluid. That, I will do.
Dog freezing.
Last night, I put a Dog in the freezer for 1 hour. When I popped the
cap, there was no frostee, and temp was 28.
Tonight, I put a Dog in the freezer for 2 hours. When I popped the cap,
frostee started forming, and over the next couple of minutes, formed to
within about an inch of the bottom. Temp was 28. Something is amiss
here. At this very moment, the thermometer is soaking in a bowl of ice
and water, and reads 33 degrees. That would seem to be close enough for
gummit work.
So why 28 both times? Beats me. I stuck the thermometer in the freezer
in case it had some sort of 28 deg hangup, and it now reads 5, so that's
not the problem. The thermometer was in the frostee that formed, and not
in the liquid Dog, so maybe the frostee is at a higher temp than the
liquid.
Unfortunately, this didn't occur to me until the test sample was gone,
because I was occupied with carefully observing the simmering brake
fluid. I have no choice but to repeat the test tomorrow night.
Damn. The life of a scientist really sucks. But I think I'm ready for
the challenge and sacrifice of staying up until oh dark thirty, drinking
cold beer to advance human knowledge. In spite of the hardship, I will
endeavor to persevere until the mystery of The Frostee Temp is
unraveled.
Will Sill
>My brother-in-law works for a county public works dept. He told me the other
>day that their shop at every oil change sucks the BF out of the master
>cylinder and replaces it with new. they claim that moisture gets into the
>fluid as it heats and cools. Changing it helps to circulate clean fluid into
>the lines and that cuts down on corrosion of the brake lines and cylinders.
>Makes good sense to me>
Sounds like you ought to rush right out and change yer BF right now.
EGAD!
Around here the Public Works Department hires only the brightest &
best of the knuckle-dragger crowd.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
including this one. He says:
>> OK, but if you and Will are drawing conclusions about the experiment you are
>> both running as well, I'd think it would behoove you to understand all aspects
>> of it.. The experiment was to determine of rust would appear (I thought). I
>> gather it hasn't appeared and you are not getting any signs if darkening of the
>> BF. You and I both know that BF does get very dark in the MC on occasion. Why
>> does it get dark in the real application but not your experiment?
If you are going to continue to make an ass of yourself, be advised
you're nearly done, Ben!
MY experiment was designed to explore only a very few of what appeared
to me to be a ahuge supply of totally daft myths:
- that water would sink to the bottom in BF (it doesn't),
- that water would make the mix cloudy or milky (it doesn't);
- that BF would continue to attract moisture at a high rate
indefinitely (it doesn't)
As an afterthought, to explore the myth that steel would rust quickly
in a misture of BF & water, the nuts were added to the mason jar. As
earlier reported, after two months they still show NO evidence of
rusting.
I see where Bill Horne has darkened some BF by cooking it, but I have
no interest in pursuing that aspect of BF behavior. I have also not
attempted to test other claims that have been made, including:
- that bubbles in BF last forever;
- that heating BF creates water; and
- that BF can suck water outa the air through hoses
On this issue, I am very much will Bill Horne: As a practical matter I
will continue to do what the huge majority of people already do with
no evil consequences: Nothing. If I were to buy a vehicle whose
maker recommended periodic changes of BF, I'd do it. And when major
work is done on my brakes, I'll put in fresh BF. Otherwise I will
continue to view with disdain the bozo-like spewings of:
- People who espouse myths
- People who insist on recommending unnecessary tampering with brakes
- People who have nothing to contribute but whining
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
>And here's an interesting thing: The label on the container of brake
>fluid said - among other things - Change the fluid every 6 months. Yeah.
>Right. Sure I will.
I think you have unearhted the true origin of most myths about
frequent changing of BF!
Will KD3XR
ben hogland
> I don't know. Maybe because it's not rust that makes it dark? Maybe
> because it takes longer? And I've never heard a credible source tell me
> that Dark is Bad.
Yes, but do you know for sure it's not bad? Seems to me that a discoloration,
depending on the degree, could indicate a contaminant or a break down of the
fluid. A helpful experiment would be to find out if it would be a bad thing by
taking existing BF from a MC and analyzing it.. I ain't going to do it.. <g>
Not that there's much of a connection, but do you
> change your motor oil as soon as it gets dark?
Generally every 3K miles.
Is your brake fluid dark?
On my Jeep, Yes. On my RV, No.
Ben
ben hogland
> If you are going to continue to make an ass of yourself, be advised
> you're nearly done, Ben!
The only person that's making and ass out of himself in this entire thread is
Will Sill.. Kinda funny how he keeps replying to me through others.. He must
feel threatened..
Ben
Vigilance Committee
I haven't done my own brake work in many years but I did completely
rebuild the brake systems on several cars while stationed overseas. In
those systems the brake cylinders all had black rubber "boots". Seemed
to me that the fluid that was in contact with the boots was the
darkest. It was nearly 40 years ago but that is what I seem to recall.
Could it be the black rubber is contributing to the darker color of old
brake fluid?
Maybe the scientists could throw in a few brake cylinder "boots" and see
if any color leaches out.
LZ
Vigilance Committee
You're lucky we don't charge admission.
LZ
Vigilance Committee
You must have a VERY understanding wife.
LZ
Hugh
My WAG on dark brake fluid would be it's burnt. From getting
too hot in the wc/caliper. I doubt if it's dirt or
contamination but I could be wrong. <grin>
Hugh
ben hogland
"Hugh" <han...@highstream.net> wrote in message
news:3D662420...@highstream.net...
>
> My WAG on dark brake fluid would be it's burnt. From getting
> too hot in the wc/caliper. I doubt if it's dirt or
> contamination but I could be wrong. <grin>
> Hugh
OK, but if that's the case, how is it getting back into the master cylinder?
Also, does burnt BF cause any other issues with the brake system?
Ben
bill horne
> I haven't done my own brake work in many years but I did completely
> rebuild the brake systems on several cars while stationed overseas. In
> those systems the brake cylinders all had black rubber "boots". Seemed
> to me that the fluid that was in contact with the boots was the
> darkest. It was nearly 40 years ago but that is what I seem to recall.
> Could it be the black rubber is contributing to the darker color of old
> brake fluid?
>
> Maybe the scientists could throw in a few brake cylinder "boots" and see
> if any color leaches out.
> LZ
I don't have any wheel cylinder boots, but the boot does not - unless
there's a malfunction - come in contact with the BF. The rubber parts
are internal - the piston seals on the pistons in the MC, the WCs, and
the caliper pistons.
The boots are there to keep crap out of the cylinder when the piston is
retracted. A bad boot can allow crud and moisture into a cylinder to
rust it, and the crud and moisture is still prevented from contacting
the BF by the piston seal. It does Not require bad BF to corrode a WC -
all it needs is a leaking boot.
But I also speculate that some of the darkening of the BF comes from the
wear of these seals.
Nevertheless, both heat and wear are normal in a brake system, and the
fact remains that Ford, GM, and DaimlerChrysler recommend that BF Not be
periodically changed (except on certain specified vehicles). And Ford
specifically mentions the reason why - "there's a potential for doing
more damage than good."
Daimler/Chrysler says:
------------------------------------------
In the past, European brake systems used vented master cylinder caps and
lower quality hose and seal materials which allowed moisture to
contaminate the fluid relatively quickly.
Because of this, the brake fluid had to be changed periodically. But
this is no longer the case, says DaimlerChrysler, at least for newer
vehicles. Most European and domestic vehicles now use sealed master
cylinders with EPDM hoses and seals that resist moisture penetration.
So fluid changes are a thing of the past for newer vehicles.
Fluid contamination by wear particles from seals and internal corrosion
can sometimes cause problems, and particles as small as
5 microns in size may be large enough to affect the operation of an ABS
modulator. Even so, DaimlerChrysler makes no recommendation to replace
the fluid.
-----------------------------------------------
Sealed, dammit. SEALED.
And when those of you who advocate periodic changing finally get around
to actually Doing it - instead of just Talking about doing it - do you
take steps to ensure that no particles larger than 5 microns get into
the system? Huh? Do you? Did you? Speak up, there.
Or are you just armchair expert theoretical cooks who have never baked a
cake?
Myself, I can read and comprehend service manuals and the
recommendations of the major manufacturers, and I have a 40-year history
(vehicular) of baking cakes that needed baking - and of leaving alone
the ones that didn't need baking. Bake an already baked cake, and you'll
probably burn it. Risk/benefit.
Will Sill
>Daimler/Chrysler says:
>------------------------------------------
>In the past, European brake systems used vented master cylinder caps and
>lower quality hose and seal materials which allowed moisture to
>contaminate the fluid relatively quickly.
>
>Because of this, the brake fluid had to be changed periodically. But
>this is no longer the case, says DaimlerChrysler, at least for newer
>vehicles. Most European and domestic vehicles now use sealed master
>cylinders with EPDM hoses and seals that resist moisture penetration.
>So fluid changes are a thing of the past for newer vehicles.
>
>Fluid contamination by wear particles from seals and internal corrosion
>can sometimes cause problems, and particles as small as
>5 microns in size may be large enough to affect the operation of an ABS
>modulator. Even so, DaimlerChrysler makes no recommendation to replace
>the fluid.
>-----------------------------------------------
Says Bill, with apparent relish:
>Sealed, dammit. SEALED.
>
>And when those of you who advocate periodic changing finally get around
>to actually Doing it - instead of just Talking about doing it - do you
>take steps to ensure that no particles larger than 5 microns get into
>the system? Huh? Do you? Did you? Speak up, there.
>
>Or are you just armchair expert theoretical cooks who have never baked a
>cake?
>
>Myself, I can read and comprehend service manuals and the
>recommendations of the major manufacturers, and I have a 40-year history
>(vehicular) of baking cakes that needed baking - and of leaving alone
>the ones that didn't need baking. Bake an already baked cake, and you'll
>probably burn it. Risk/benefit.
Where O where is our resident Kind Friendly RV Expert who railed on at
length to the contrary? Chris, we are still waiting for credible
evidence supporting your repeated claim that BF sucks water into
sealed systems through the hoses.
BTW - you would gain - rather than lose - stature if you'd simplyb
admit you were wrong about that. A few others have no stature to
lose, but....
Will KD3XR
Vigilance Committee
bill horne wrote:
>
> Vigilance Committee wrote:
>
> > I haven't done my own brake work in many years but I did completely
> > rebuild the brake systems on several cars while stationed overseas. In
> > those systems the brake cylinders all had black rubber "boots". Seemed
> > to me that the fluid that was in contact with the boots was the
> > darkest. It was nearly 40 years ago but that is what I seem to recall.
> > Could it be the black rubber is contributing to the darker color of old
> > brake fluid?
> >
> > Maybe the scientists could throw in a few brake cylinder "boots" and see
> > if any color leaches out.
> > LZ
>
> I don't have any wheel cylinder boots, but the boot does not - unless
> there's a malfunction - come in contact with the BF. The rubber parts
> are internal - the piston seals on the pistons in the MC, the WCs, and
> the caliper pistons.
>
> The boots are there to keep crap out of the cylinder when the piston is
> retracted. A bad boot can allow crud and moisture into a cylinder to
> rust it, and the crud and moisture is still prevented from contacting
> the BF by the piston seal. It does Not require bad BF to corrode a WC -
> all it needs is a leaking boot.
I would need to look at one again before continuing the discussion.
Aren't there rubber "skirts" on the piston seal too? I seem to picture
rubber parts slippery with brake fluid that rode back and forth with the
piston seal. These were GM cars I worked on.
>
> But I also speculate that some of the darkening of the BF comes from the
> wear of these seals.
>
> Nevertheless, both heat and wear are normal in a brake system, and the
> fact remains that Ford, GM, and DaimlerChrysler recommend that BF Not be
> periodically changed (except on certain specified vehicles). And Ford
> specifically mentions the reason why - "there's a potential for doing
> more damage than good."
Never changed fluid unless I did a brake job. Never had boiling brake
fluid and the only time I had a brake failure was when I had a junkyard
rear end swapped in Alabama. Guess the rubber was old and rotten
because I had total failure after a few stops. Quite exciting since I
was in overdrive and couldn't gear down.
I have no quibble with never changing brake fluid unless you rebuild the
brakes. I merely speculated on where the black color came from.
LZ
bill horne
>
> "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
> news:3D65B5FA...@rye.net...
>
> > I don't know. Maybe because it's not rust that makes it dark? Maybe
> > because it takes longer? And I've never heard a credible source tell me
> > that Dark is Bad.
>
> Yes, but do you know for sure it's not bad?
No - but I don't know if it is, either.
> Seems to me that a discoloration,
> depending on the degree, could indicate a contaminant or a break down of the
> fluid.
It could. Any BF that I've ever looked at that's been in the system for
a while was some degree of dark. That hasn't kept it from working.
> A helpful experiment would be to find out if it would be a bad thing by
> taking existing BF from a MC and analyzing it.. I ain't going to do it.. <g>
I would, but I don't have a BF analyzer. I spent that part of my budget
on a BS detector.
> Not that there's much of a connection, but do you
> > change your motor oil as soon as it gets dark?
>
> Generally every 3K miles.
I'll bet a Dog that's what the service manual says do. And I'll bet
another Dog that it gets dark before 3K.
> Is your brake fluid dark?
>
> On my Jeep, Yes. On my RV, No.
Have you changed it yet? Why not? Isn't the accepted rule to "Err on the
side of caution"? If it were my Jeep, and I bought it used, I'd be
changing it now. If it were my Jeep, and I bought it new, I wouldn't be
changing it - unless the manual said I should.
And if you want something else to worry about, worry about this: The
primary worry about BF is getting water in it, lowering the boiling
point, and losing braking on long downhills due to BF boiling. We
already know that even 50% water doesn't make BF dark, so the clear
fluid in your MH could easily be half water, and an
accident...ummm...crash waiting to happen. Better change it, too - to be
on The Safe Side. So stop dithering, and err on the side of caution.
Change your BF now - and every 6 months thereafter. But make sure that
nothing larger than 5 microns gets in there when you do it.
I might have asked this before, but what do the owner or service manuals
for the Jeep and the MH say about changing BF?
> Ben
Todd Kattelman
wrote:
>I would need to look at one again before continuing the discussion.
>Aren't there rubber "skirts" on the piston seal too? I seem to picture
>rubber parts slippery with brake fluid that rode back and forth with the
>piston seal. These were GM cars I worked on.
If you are refering to the wheel cylinder you have a rubber cup behind
an alloy piston and the wheel cylinder has a rubber cap/cover to keep
the junk out. On the callipers you have a rubber seal that fits
inside the calliper that the piston slides past and you also have the
rubber cap/cover for protection.
bill horne
Well, let's see - it's probably not osmosis or UPS freight, so what else
is available? How about Brownian motion? That could do it, couldn't it?
Or how about just plain ole mixing from the various pistons in the
system stirring the stuff back and forth?
Does burnt BF cause a problem? I don't know - but neither you nor anyone
else has yet shown that normal braking causes "burnt", or that "dark"
equals "burnt".
If you'd just quit wasting your time with all these unsupportable
assumptions, and go change your brake fluid, you'd probably sleep better
the next time you start down a long hill.
Todd Kattelman
wrote:
>I would need to look at one again before continuing the discussion.
>Aren't there rubber "skirts" on the piston seal too? I seem to picture
>rubber parts slippery with brake fluid that rode back and forth with the
>piston seal. These were GM cars I worked on.
>>
Here is a link to the best breakdown I could find on short notice for
a wheel cylinder
bill horne
>
> bill horne wrote:
> >
> > Vigilance Committee wrote:
> >
> > > I haven't done my own brake work in many years but I did completely
> > > rebuild the brake systems on several cars while stationed overseas. In
> > > those systems the brake cylinders all had black rubber "boots". Seemed
> > > to me that the fluid that was in contact with the boots was the
> > > darkest. It was nearly 40 years ago but that is what I seem to recall.
> > > Could it be the black rubber is contributing to the darker color of old
> > > brake fluid?
> > >
> > > Maybe the scientists could throw in a few brake cylinder "boots" and see
> > > if any color leaches out.
> > > LZ
> >
> > I don't have any wheel cylinder boots, but the boot does not - unless
> > there's a malfunction - come in contact with the BF. The rubber parts
> > are internal - the piston seals on the pistons in the MC, the WCs, and
> > the caliper pistons.
> >
> > The boots are there to keep crap out of the cylinder when the piston is
> > retracted. A bad boot can allow crud and moisture into a cylinder to
> > rust it, and the crud and moisture is still prevented from contacting
> > the BF by the piston seal. It does Not require bad BF to corrode a WC -
> > all it needs is a leaking boot.
>
> I would need to look at one again before continuing the discussion.
> Aren't there rubber "skirts" on the piston seal too?
I already answered that. I said, just above, "...crud and moisture is
still prevented from contacting the BF by the piston seal." The piston
seal IS rubber (or something other than metal, anyway). On my 83 Chevy,
it's a 'cup' at the base of the pistons in the WC, and in the calipers,
it's a 'ring'.
> I seem to picture
> rubber parts slippery with brake fluid that rode back and forth with the
> piston seal. These were GM cars I worked on.
See above.
ben hogland
> If you'd just quit wasting your time with all these unsupportable
> assumptions, and go change your brake fluid, you'd probably sleep better
> the next time you start down a long hill.
Lemme get this straight, who's making assumptions? <g>
Ben
ben hogland
> ben hogland wrote:
> I might have asked this before, but what do the owner or service manuals
> for the Jeep and the MH say about changing BF?
That I don't know since I can't find it..
The point was to throw in all the variables which there are many of.. In my not
so humble opinion, to come to some resounding conclusion (which I'm not accusing
you of doing) just because bolts don't rust in some brake fluid contained in a
glass jar is akin to concluding bleach and ammonia don't produce deadly gas
simply because they were tested separately.
No, I don't plan on changing my BF anytime soon as I'm not worried about it..
But I see nothing wrong with periodic maintenance which may include changing the
BF as I consider it the safer route to take based on the LACK of information..
Ben
ben hogland
> Where O where is our resident Kind Friendly RV Expert who railed on at
> length to the contrary?
Who wants to argue with an idiot endlessly? Unless, of course, it's for the fun
of it..
Ben
Chris Bryant
If Will is, by chance, speaking about me, I kill filed the
gentleman (I use the term in its broadest sense) a while ago- so I see
his replies only when quoted. Sorry- but his dogshit/chocolate ratio
just got too bad.
If he is trying to troll me out again- I have not seen
anything which changes my recommendation- which is, and always has
been, if you are driving a vehicle which is at or near its' GVW, and
you live in a humid climate, I recommend checking or changing the
brake fluid- I like the 5 year interval- Ford says 2 years (which I
would go with if I had a Ford class A).
I'm not sure why he has trouble understanding that- but he
certainly has tried to distort my stance.
--
Chris Bryant
Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com
bill horne
>
> "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
> news:3D66AB15...@rye.net...
> > ben hogland wrote:
>
> > I might have asked this before, but what do the owner or service manuals
> > for the Jeep and the MH say about changing BF?
>
> That I don't know since I can't find it..
All this concern about 'information', and you don't even have manuals
for your vehicles? Damn.
> The point was to throw in all the variables which there are many of.. In my not
> so humble opinion, to come to some resounding conclusion (which I'm not accusing
> you of doing) just because bolts don't rust in some brake fluid contained in a
> glass jar is akin to concluding bleach and ammonia don't produce deadly gas
> simply because they were tested separately.
> No, I don't plan on changing my BF anytime soon as I'm not worried about it..
> But I see nothing wrong with periodic maintenance which may include changing the
> BF as I consider it the safer route to take based on the LACK of information..
>
> Ben
You consider it the safer route, but you're not going to change it?
You've started again. I'm leaving.
ben hogland
> You consider it the safer route, but you're not going to change it?
> You've started again. I'm leaving.
Trouble with comprehension today, Bill? Maybe if you read it again.
Ben
Vigilance Committee
These were in the 60s when disk brakes weren't in vogue yet. I guess
"rubber cup" is a good term for what I recall.
LZ
Vigilance Committee
Yep, that is a good diagram of what I recall. Those rubber cups are
what I had in mind.
Thanks for the research.
LZ
Vigilance Committee
The "cups" are what I had in mind. Check out this URL furnished by Mr.
Kattleman
http://www.raybestos.com/OnLineTraining/cpt-013.htm
LZ
ben hogland
"Chris Bryant" <Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:l1gdmug5hvgg3nfpn...@4ax.com...
> If Will is, by chance, speaking about me, I kill filed the
> gentleman (I use the term in its broadest sense) a while ago- so I see
> his replies only when quoted. Sorry- but his dogshit/chocolate ratio
> just got too bad.
Yep, it sure is.. The man is incapable of a conversation without ankle biting
and ridiculous assumptions if he disagrees in the slightest. He really is an
oddity to me but kinda fun to play with.
> I'm not sure why he has trouble understanding that- but he
> certainly has tried to distort my stance.
His Buddy-Base seems to have shrunk over the years though. The man is a lunatic
and, in Will Sill's own words, only a moron or bozo would disagree with that. Of
course, there will always be those that like to see his abuse and try to
perpetuate it just for the fun of it. There are also people that like to kick
dogs too.. <g>
Ben
bill horne
I must have missed that - or forgot it. Ford says what? And what did
they say it about? I know that Ford says change it every two years on
the "F53 MH Only" (their uppercase "O", not mine), but I"ve missed any
broad BF changing statement Ford may have made - except where they say
the risk exceeds the bnefit.
And where did your "5 years" come from? Have high GVW vehicle braking
systems - like tires - been falling apart at 6 or 7 years?
midwesterner
article describes some of the stubborn beliefs that people on cling
to.
Part of from Michael Shermer's Smart People Believe Weird Things:
..."Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at
defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons.
Rarely do any of us sit down before a table of facts, weigh them pro
and con, and choose the most logical and rational explanation,
regardless of what we previously believed. Most of us, most of the
time, come to our beliefs for a variety of reasons having little to do
with empirical evidence and logical reasoning."....
"Cass" <casseg...@galaxycorp.com> wrote in message news:<ak1f8l$78d$0...@pita.alt.net>...
> Funny that Scientific American should be brought up in this group as an
> article in this month's edition is about how otherwise intelligent folks
> come to a point of believing nonsense.
>
> I may write an article for them describing the sheeple syndrome.
>
> Any volunteers for case studies? There is plenty of subject material in
> here.
>
> Cass
bill horne
> The "cups" are what I had in mind. Check out this URL furnished by Mr.
> Kattleman
>
> http://www.raybestos.com/OnLineTraining/cpt-013.htm
>
> LZ
Ok, I checked it out. It's a picture of what I described. And did you
notice the interesting little 'recommendation' at the bottom of that
page?
"Wheel cylinders should be overhauled or replaced each time the brakes
are relined." Yeah. Right. Sure I will. And speaking of "relined", I
don't know anyone (although there probably are some) who gets their
brakes "relined" anymore. I just buy new pads and shoes. The parts
places have even stopped wanting my old "cores".
I think if we continue to research this long enough, we'll probably end
up with a pile of 'expert' recommendations that will be equivalent to,
"Whenever you replace pads or shoes, you should also replace the entire
braking system."
Any idea why my 19-year old wheel cylinders aren't leaking? All of the
'evidence' indicates that they should now be just a film of dark brown
sludge - consisting of watery burnt BF, rubber dust, and rust - spread
around the inside of the drum.
Herman
you have a vehicle that has discolored brake fluid, remove a wheel
cylinder and look in the center (inside), at the lowest point, there
WILL be pits, rust pits, metal that is missing. The interesting part
is, if you disassemble a master cylinder, you may or maynot find the
same pitting depending upon how old the vehicle is. Why? The problem
is DOT 3 (and to a lesser extent DOT 4)brake fluids are very
hydophillic. That is, they love water and will absorb it out of the
air. so now we have absorbed water in the brake fluid. Then, when
you use your brakes, you change the kenetic energy of the moving
vehicle into heat. This heat then boils the brake fluid, turning the
absorbed moisture into steam. What does Steam do to steel? also, the
steam condenses and sits at the lowest point in the system because it
has a higher density then the brake fluid. After a while the
condensed moisture (water) is reabsorbed into the fluid and the
process starts all over. In the mean time, because you have boiled
out the moisture, more will be absorbed from the atmosphere also. In
conclusion, if you want to change your brake fluid, (and extend the
life of your expensive Calipers and wheel cylinders) you also need to
dissasemble your wheel cylinders and calipers and wipe all of that
"mud" (rust particles) out, and then put them back together again. No
you don't have to buy a "kit" unless you tear some of the rubber
pieces. Herman
Hugh <han...@highstream.net> wrote in message news:<3D662420...@highstream.net>...
Cass
No, I would suppose that most of us DO NOT sit down with tables of facts and
ponder them before doing something. If we did, we would never get many
things done.
As the article says and you quoted:
..."Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at
defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons.",
some folks are skilled at conning themselves into thinking or buying into
anything as I have so often seen done in here.
Should I post some examples or will it just be taken as fact as has been
proved before so much so that tables are not necessary?
Cass
"midwesterner" <e7...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c50166aa.02082...@posting.google.com...
ben hogland
he missed something in his logic? Maybe a key ingredient, heat? LOL.. I wonder
what else he missed...
Thanks, Herman.
Ben
"Herman" <rgoe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7b2257c1.02082...@posting.google.com...
Mark
>dispose of the sample from tonight's Frostee Temp test. I have a small
>stainless steel pot and a Coleman stove with a refilled non-refillable
>cylinder which should work just fine. Unfortunately, I can't use my
>wife's cast iron stuff to cook brake fluid. I know that without even
>asking.
>
>But that doesn't address the assumption that appears to be rapidly on
>the way to becoming accepted fact - That Dark is Bad. Is it? Why?
>
>--
>bill
Hmmmm....try sumpthin' for me while you're cookin' up a mess of BF... toss in a
bit of rubber brakeline or o-ring and see if the BF turns black. In a past
life, when I raced, the BF in the wheel cylinder area was always black and I
changed out the fluid about once a month. Just curious if the darkness really
is from the rubber breaking down.
Mark
Mark
>Damn. The life of a scientist really sucks. But I think I'm ready for
>the challenge and sacrifice of staying up until oh dark thirty, drinking
>cold beer to advance human knowledge. In spite of the hardship, I will
>endeavor to persevere until the mystery of The Frostee Temp is
>unraveled.
>
>--
>bill
I think you deserve a Nobel for your perserverance and dedication to these acts
of selflessness which, in the end, benefit all of humanity.
Mark
bill horne
>
> The discoloration in your brake fluid is rust.
Bull. Just last night, I discolored some brake fluid by heating it in a
stainless steel pot. But that's not to say that the discoloration can
Not be rust - just that discoloration doesn't prove rust.
> The problem is DOT 3 (and to a lesser extent DOT 4)brake fluids are very > hydophillic.
Bull again. BF IS hygroscopic, but that's not a "problem". It's Designed
to be so, so that water won't settle to low spots and cause rust.
Herman
Will Sill
> If Will is, by chance, speaking about me, I kill filed the
>gentleman (I use the term in its broadest sense) a while ago- so I see
>his replies only when quoted. Sorry- but his dogshit/chocolate ratio
>just got too bad.
> If he is trying to troll me out again- I have not seen
>anything which changes my recommendation- which is, and always has
>been, if you are driving a vehicle which is at or near its' GVW, and
>you live in a humid climate, I recommend checking or changing the
>brake fluid- I like the 5 year interval- Ford says 2 years (which I
>would go with if I had a Ford class A).
>
> I'm not sure why he has trouble understanding that- but he
>certainly has tried to distort my stance.
Chris is clearly one of the most helpful individuals posting here, but
on the subject of brake fluid he is virtually Oz-like. He has
repeatedly claimed not just the above (which is mostly OK though not
quite what he claimed earlier, and not what Ford says about most of
it;s vehicles), but that BF absorbs significant water through hoses &
reservoir.
That last claim has yet to be shown credible by anything approaching
evidence, and is the issue he has ducked and twisted. If someone
he's not filtered cares to ask him where he stands on that issue now
that huge amounts of contrary evidence have surfaced, I'd be
interested in his answer. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath, since
he has a terrible time admitting a mistake when he makes one.
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
ben hogland
> Herman wrote:
> >
> > The discoloration in your brake fluid is rust.
>
> Bull. Just last night, I discolored some brake fluid by heating it in a
> stainless steel pot. But that's not to say that the discoloration can
> Not be rust - just that discoloration doesn't prove rust.
>
> > The problem is DOT 3 (and to a lesser extent DOT 4)brake fluids are very >
hydophillic.
>
> Bull again. BF IS hygroscopic, but that's not a "problem". It's Designed
> to be so, so that water won't settle to low spots and cause rust.
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Ben
bill horne
>
> Ok then if it's rust and Will Sill didn't find rust in is experiment, then maybe
> he missed something in his logic? Maybe a key ingredient, heat? LOL.. I wonder
> what else he missed...
>
> Thanks, Herman.
>
> Ben
Who the hell is Herman, and why do you think he's right? Jesus, Ben. My
Dog says Herman is wrong, and I proved it last night. Have your eyes
slammed shut again?
--
bill
bill horne
I'm curious too, but I don't have any rubber brakeline, or seals. And I
don't have enough BF left to boil a BB in.
Vigilance Committee
bill horne wrote:
>
> Vigilance Committee wrote:
>
> > The "cups" are what I had in mind. Check out this URL furnished by Mr.
> > Kattleman
> >
> > http://www.raybestos.com/OnLineTraining/cpt-013.htm
> >
> > LZ
>
> Ok, I checked it out. It's a picture of what I described. And did you
> notice the interesting little 'recommendation' at the bottom of that
> page?
I wasn't there for the recommendations. I was there to refresh my
memory of what a wheel cylinder looked like on the inside. The little
rubber cups go back and forth, rubbing on the cylinder walls as they do
so and leaving traces of black behind to darken the fluid. Just as I
recalled. Sorry for calling them "boots". I now recall what the
outside rubber boots looked like too.
LZ
ben hogland
> ben hogland wrote:
> >
> > Ok then if it's rust and Will Sill didn't find rust in is experiment, then
maybe
> > he missed something in his logic? Maybe a key ingredient, heat? LOL.. I
wonder
> > what else he missed...
> >
> > Thanks, Herman.
> >
> > Ben
>
> Who the hell is Herman, and why do you think he's right? Jesus, Ben. My
> Dog says Herman is wrong, and I proved it last night. Have your eyes
> slammed shut again?
I didn't say he was right.. Did you see the "If".. Plus, you didn't try heating
the BF with nails in it, did you? It probably would take longer then a few
days.. All I am suggesting is that there are other things to consider in the
experiment.
Ben
Will Sill
>Any idea why my 19-year old wheel cylinders aren't leaking? All of the
>'evidence' indicates that they should now be just a film of dark brown
>sludge - consisting of watery burnt BF, rubber dust, and rust - spread
>around the inside of the drum.
Don't forget the permanent bubbles in the BF, Bill. Gotta recognize
how devoutly some of these myths are believed.
Will KD3XR
Will Sill
>The discoloration in your brake fluid is rust. If you doubt that, and
>you have a vehicle that has discolored brake fluid, remove a wheel
>cylinder and look in the center (inside), at the lowest point, there
>WILL be pits, rust pits, metal that is missing. The interesting part
>is, if you disassemble a master cylinder, you may or maynot find the
>same pitting depending upon how old the vehicle is. Why? The problem
>is DOT 3 (and to a lesser extent DOT 4)brake fluids are very
>hydophillic. That is, they love water and will absorb it out of the
>air. so now we have absorbed water in the brake fluid. Then, when
>you use your brakes, you change the kenetic energy of the moving
>vehicle into heat. This heat then boils the brake fluid, turning the
>absorbed moisture into steam. What does Steam do to steel? also, the
>steam condenses and sits at the lowest point in the system because it
>has a higher density then the brake fluid. After a while the
>condensed moisture (water) is reabsorbed into the fluid and the
>process starts all over. In the mean time, because you have boiled
>out the moisture, more will be absorbed from the atmosphere also. In
>conclusion, if you want to change your brake fluid, (and extend the
>life of your expensive Calipers and wheel cylinders) you also need to
>dissasemble your wheel cylinders and calipers and wipe all of that
>"mud" (rust particles) out, and then put them back together again. No
>you don't have to buy a "kit" unless you tear some of the rubber
>pieces. Herman
Herman, as a matter of curiosity, have you actually read the many
posts on this subject? Are you aware that at least some of your
statements above are myths & legends unrelated to the real world?
Before answering, I suggest a search on Google for Brake Fluid and
related topics.
Will KD3XR
ben hogland
> I'm curious too, but I don't have any rubber brakeline, or seals. And I
> don't have enough BF left to boil a BB in.
I got BF but I ain't boiling it, the neighbors might get upset.. <g>
Ben
bill horne
> > Bull again. BF IS hygroscopic, but that's not a "problem". It's Designed
> > to be so, so that water won't settle to low spots and cause rust.
>
> Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Well, at least you have Some sense. Except it's not a theory, so maybe
you don't.
> Ben
--
bill
bill horne
Thanks - but I'll settle for a case of frostee testing samples.
bill horne
That's a good decision - the stuff smokes like a pile of burning wet
pinestraw.
ben hogland
>
> Chris is clearly one of the most helpful individuals posting here, but
<snipped because I'll spare Chris from seeing the remainder of the drivel>
I still can't figure where Will gets "Huge amount of contrary evidence" from?
Maybe he pulled it out of his ass?
Ben
bill horne
Ok - ...a bubbly film of bubbly dark brown bubbly sludge.
ben hogland
> ben hogland wrote:
> >
> > "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
>
> > > Bull again. BF IS hygroscopic, but that's not a "problem". It's Designed
> > > to be so, so that water won't settle to low spots and cause rust.
> >
> > Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
>
> Well, at least you have Some sense. Except it's not a theory, so maybe
> you don't.
I have a theory that it is a theory.. But it's just a theory. In any case, if it
don't work as you theorize, it don't mean squat. And since you haven't
experimented to prove it with all aspect taken into account, it's just a theory.
Ben
HHamp5246
>I still can't figure where Will gets "Huge amount of contrary evidence" from?
>Maybe he pulled it out of his ass?>
Then this........immediately after.......
<Ok - ...a bubbly film of bubbly dark brown bubbly sludge.>
I'm going to bed........
Hunter
bill horne
>
> "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
> news:3D66F4D2...@rye.net...
> > ben hogland wrote:
> > >
> > > "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message
> >
> > > > Bull again. BF IS hygroscopic, but that's not a "problem". It's Designed
> > > > to be so, so that water won't settle to low spots and cause rust.
> > >
> > > Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
> >
> > Well, at least you have Some sense. Except it's not a theory, so maybe
> > you don't.
>
> I have a theory that it is a theory.. But it's just a theory. In any case, if it
> don't work as you theorize, it don't mean squat. And since you haven't
> experimented to prove it with all aspect taken into account, it's just a theory.
>
> Ben
We must be talking about two different things. I'm talking about why
hygroscopic is a Good Thing for BF to be - which is not a theory. What
are you talking about?
--
bill
ben hogland
Dot 3 is hygroscopic. Dot 5 is too but not to the same degree. Is it still as
hygroscopic when hot? What happens to the moisture when it out-gases?
Ben
bill horne
Well, first thing in the morning, check your MC for bubbles. That'll
give 'em time to osmose up from the mysterious depths of the system. If
you don't see any, your BF should be good for another week or two.
But if you haven't changed it this month, you should err on the side of
caution, and drive carefully down to the Burger King, and have it done.
--
bill
Cass
here must be Negro.
Cass
"Mark" <mtsof...@aol.committed> wrote in message
news:20020823221938...@mb-ck.aol.com...
ben hogland
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020823230648...@mb-bh.aol.com...
Damn, that's an ugly thought.. Maybe you better not go to bed for a while, you
might have nightmares.. <g>
Ben