Pronounciation guide

Nigel Grinter

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Feb 6, 2002, 6:45:11 PM2/6/02

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Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):

Dedacciai?
Ciocc?
Botteccia?
Guerciotti?
Gios?
Croche D'Aune?
Dura Ace?
Fir?
Mavic?
Sapim?
Rohloff?
Dia Compe?
Wolber?
Sedis?

And last but not least:

Jobst?

I ask because I have heard all of the above pronounced at least two
quite different ways.

Thanks,

Nigel Grinter

A Muzi

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Feb 6, 2002, 9:02:34 PM2/6/02

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"Nigel Grinter" <ngri...@promega.com> wrote in message
news:ce6b2195.0202...@posting.google.com...

You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
(mar-SALES) Illinois.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org

Open every day since 1 April 1971

John Henderson

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Feb 6, 2002, 9:52:09 PM2/6/02

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On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:02:34 -0600, "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
>(mar-SALES) Illinois.

Des Moines (Dee Moin), IA and Des Plaines (Des Plains), IL.
Cairo (Kay-ro), IL.

John Henderson, New York City, USA
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Let's roll!" -- Todd Beamer, 9/11/01
"After five and weekends" -- 711th SOS
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Henrik Münster

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Feb 6, 2002, 10:40:58 PM2/6/02

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Nigel Grinter <ngri...@promega.com> wrote:

> Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):
>
> Dedacciai?

De-da-kjaj

> Ciocc?

Tjøk

> Botteccia?

Bo-tek-jai

> Guerciotti?

G'er-tjot-ti

> Gios?

Dji-os

> Croche D'Aune?

Krosj-dawm

> Dura Ace?

Dura Ace

> Fir?

Fïr

> Mavic?

Mah-vik

> Sapim?

Sah-pïm

> Rohloff?

Roh-lof

> Dia Compe?

Dia Compe

> Wolber?

Wol-bér

> Sedis?

Seh-dis

> And last but not least:
>
> Jobst?

Joubst

Couldn't someone make a sound file?
--
Henrik Münster
Esbjerg, Danmark

Michael Khaw

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Feb 6, 2002, 10:49:48 PM2/6/02

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> You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> (mar-SALES) Illinois.
> --
> Andrew Muzi

Isn't there also a Vienna (VY-anna) somewhere in the South (USA, that is)?

Michael Khaw

terry morse

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Feb 6, 2002, 11:00:33 PM2/6/02

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Michael Khaw <mk...@zetanoveti.com> wrote:

> > You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> > (mar-SALES) Illinois.
>

> Isn't there also a Vienna (VY-anna) somewhere in the South (USA, that is)?

Don't forget Pierre (peer) South Dakota.

--
terry morse
Palo Alto, CA
http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

Steven L. Sheffield

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Feb 7, 2002, 1:13:14 AM2/7/02

to

In article <ce6b2195.0202...@posting.google.com>,
ngri...@promega.com (Nigel Grinter) wrote:

> Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):
>
> Dedacciai?

Dead-uh-CHI

> Ciocc?

Choke

> Botteccia?

Bo-tech-ee-uh

> Guerciotti?

Gare-chee-oh-tee

> Gios?

Gee-ose

> Croche D'Aune?

Cro-chay doh-nay

> Dura Ace?

Dura Ace

> Fir?

Fear

> Mavic?

Mah-veek

> Sapim?

Sah-peem

> Rohloff?

Roll-off

> Dia Compe?

Die-uh Comp

> Wolber?

Wohl-ber

> Sedis?

Seh-dis

> And last but not least:
>
> Jobst?

Yoh-bst

> I ask because I have heard all of the above pronounced at least two
> quite different ways.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nigel Grinter

--

Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at mac dot com
aitch tee tea pea colon four word slash forward slash double ewe double you double yew dot veloworks dot com

Dave Balfour

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Feb 7, 2002, 2:48:16 AM2/7/02

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Andrew
Do you know Marseilles? Ever eat at the restaurant?
DaveBalfour
Bushnell IL
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:3c619beb$0$35577$272e...@news.execpc.com...

jobst....@stanfordalumni.org

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Feb 7, 2002, 2:52:28 AM2/7/02

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Nigel Grinter writes:

In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce
is ch as in church. ciaina would bepronounced china.

> Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):

> Dedacciai? deh-da-chai' acciaio := steel
> Ciocc? The umlaut on the "o" makes this an odd one
> Bottecchia? bow-te'tcha
> Guerciotti? gare-cho'tty
> Gios? joess
> Croche D'Aune? crosh-down'
> Dura Ace?
> Fir? feer
> Mavic? mah-veek'
> Sapim? sah-peem (an acronym) sa: company, p i m: initials
> Rohloff? roll'-off
> Dia Compe?
> Wolber? wol-bear
> Sedis? say-dee'

> And last but not least:

> Jobst? yobst

> I ask because I have heard all of the above pronounced at least two
> quite different ways.

At least two if not many more.

Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA

Mark Janeba

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Feb 7, 2002, 3:31:40 AM2/7/02

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terry morse wrote:

> Michael Khaw <mk...@zetanoveti.com> wrote:
> > > You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> > > (mar-SALES) Illinois.
> >> Isn't there also a Vienna (VY-anna) somewhere in the South (USA, that is)?
> Don't forget Pierre (peer) South Dakota.

I always thought the locals called it PEER-ee. Add to that:

Buena Vista, Colorado: BYOO-nah VIS-tah
DuBois, Wyoming: DOO boyz
Pueblo, Colorado: PEE-blo (but only at a rodeo, apparently)

Bicycle content: I have visited the latter three on bicycle tours. Perhaps one
should avoid "high-falutin' yur-peen" pronunciations while traversing cowboys
towns in lycra shorts, though I've never had a problem.

Regards,
Mark Janeba

terry morse

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Feb 7, 2002, 3:58:13 AM2/7/02

to

Mark Janeba wrote:

> terry morse wrote:
> > Don't forget Pierre (peer) South Dakota.
>
> I always thought the locals called it PEER-ee.

Maybe the pronunciation's changed over time. I got the "PEER"
pronunciation from my wife's late dad, who was a marker on Mt.
Rushmore.

David L. Johnson

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Feb 7, 2002, 4:33:20 AM2/7/02

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Nigel Grinter wrote:

> Croche D'Aune?

croach d-une with a hint of the A

> Dura Ace?

durra Ace (like in ace of spades -- probably an English word, anyway. You can
also choose the Italian pronounciation: d-ura ah-che -- they may not be
Campy, but they sound like it that way).

> Fir?

fur

> Mavic?

mahvik

> Rohloff?

Roll-off

> Dia Compe?

Dye-ah comp

> Wolber?

wobbler. Describes what they ride like, anyway.

> Sedis?

Say-dis

> Jobst?

yobst.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and
_`\(,_ | Excellence.
(_)/ (_) |

Sergio SERVADIO

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Feb 7, 2002, 10:35:52 AM2/7/02

to Steven L. Sheffield

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> > Botteccia?
> Bo-tech-ee-uh

> > Croche D'Aune?
> Cro-chay doh-nay

How about some spell checking before that?

Bottecchia and Croce d'Aune

Sergio
Pisa

Max Watt

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Feb 7, 2002, 2:52:32 PM2/7/02

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jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote in message news:<MZl88.17499$TI3.1...@typhoon.sonic.net>...

> Nigel Grinter writes:
>
> In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
> a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce
> is ch as in church. ciaina would bepronounced china.
>
> > Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):
>
> > Dedacciai? deh-da-chai' acciaio := steel
> > Ciocc? The umlaut on the "o" makes this an odd one
> > Bottecchia? bow-te'tcha
> > Guerciotti? gare-cho'tty
> > Gios? joess
> > Croche D'Aune? crosh-down'
> > Dura Ace?

That one's easy: "Dura Ace" = Doo'-rah Atch'-ay

jobst....@stanfordalumni.org

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Feb 7, 2002, 8:43:55 PM2/7/02

to

Nigel Grinter writes:

In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce
is ch as in church. ciaina would bepronounced china.

> Anyone know how to say (Please excuse possible mis-spellings):

> Dedacciai? deh-da-chai' acciaio := steel

> Ciocc? The umlaut on the "o" makes this an odd one

> Bottecchia? bow-tek'-ia

> Guerciotti? gare-cho'tty
> Gios? joess
> Croche D'Aune? crosh-down'
> Dura Ace?

> Fir? feer
> Mavic? mah-veek'
> Sapim? sah-peem (an acronym) sa: company, p i m: initials
> Rohloff? roll'-off
> Dia Compe?
> Wolber? wol-bear
> Sedis? say-dee'

> And last but not least:

> Jobst? yobst

> I ask because I have heard all of the above pronounced at least two
> quite different ways.

At least two if not many more.

Dennis P. Harris

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Feb 7, 2002, 9:15:18 PM2/7/02

to

On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:52:09 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech,
jh...@nyu.edu (John Henderson) wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:02:34 -0600, "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> >(mar-SALES) Illinois.
>
> Des Moines (Dee Moin), IA and Des Plaines (Des Plains), IL.
> Cairo (Kay-ro), IL.
>

we can always tell new radio and tv announcers in alaska because
they don't know how to pronounce val-DEEZ (valdez), the pipeline
port. for some strange reason they try to pronounce it like it
was a spanish name...

my dad always wanted to go to afghanistan because he was born
near CAHbool (cabool), missourah.

jobst....@stanfordalumni.org

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Feb 7, 2002, 9:24:37 PM2/7/02

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Sergio Servadio writes:

>>> Croche D'Aune?
>> Cro-chay doh-nay

> How about some spell checking before that?

> Bottecchia and Croce d'Aune

This is a road I have not yet seen on my tours in that area but it
might be interesting:

Croce d'Aune 1011m. Croce d'Aune is a minor pass near Feltre and it's
not of great communication ...

http://www.cicloturismo.bbk.org/aune.html

terry morse

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Feb 7, 2002, 10:49:41 PM2/7/02

to

Jobst Brandt wrote:

> In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
> a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce
> is ch as in church. ciaina would bepronounced china.

Pronunciation also depends on where you live in Italy, and each region
steadfastly believes it has the monopoly on "proper" Italian. "Ci" may
be pronounced "see" in one town and "chee" in another.

jobst....@stanfordalumni.org

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Feb 7, 2002, 11:22:53 PM2/7/02

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Terry Morse writes:

>> In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
>> a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce

>> is ch as in church. ciaina would be pronounced china.

> Pronunciation also depends on where you live in Italy, and each
> region steadfastly believes it has the monopoly on "proper"
> Italian. "Ci" may be pronounced "see" in one town and "chee" in
> another.

Please give examples of such words. We're not talking slang here but
typically what RAI would use on the air.

terry morse

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Feb 8, 2002, 12:18:25 AM2/8/02

to

<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:

> Terry Morse writes:
>
> > Pronunciation also depends on where you live in Italy, and each
> > region steadfastly believes it has the monopoly on "proper"
> > Italian. "Ci" may be pronounced "see" in one town and "chee" in
> > another.
>
> Please give examples of such words. We're not talking slang here but
> typically what RAI would use on the air.

More regional pronunciation than slang. Travel from Northern to
Southern Italy, and you'll hear a big difference in pronunciation.

Here's a first-hand anecdote. A few years ago, I went to dinner at my
in-laws' house. My mother in-law, whose home region was Piemonte, had
prepared cima (pronounced "SEE-mah"), as the main course. It was a
delicious stuffed veal chop.

A few days later, I asked a co-worker from Turin if he knew of a dish
called cima. He said he had never heard of it. After I described what
it was made of, he exlaimed "Oh, 'CHEE-mah'!".

I found the recipe online:

http://italianfood.about.com/library/rec/blr0799.htm?terms=cima

Michael Khaw

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Feb 8, 2002, 1:22:48 AM2/8/02

to

There are definitely differences in dialect pronunciations. For example,
"chiave" (key) is KYA-VAY in "italiano standard" but "SHA-VAY" in
Veneto. The "RAI" pronunciation was sort of the analog of the "BBC
accent" in the UK, but nowadays one often hears Roman accents on RAI
telegiornale. I guess it might be comparable to US network news anchors
speaking with Brooklyn accents.

Mike Khaw

Sergio SERVADIO

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:16:05 AM2/8/02

to

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Croce d'Aune 1011m. Croce d'Aune is a minor pass near Feltre and it's
> not of great communication ...

Jobst,
I have not been there either but I know for sure that it is a tough
climb going up from Feltre.
If you care. Some good acquaintences of mine live in the area, are very
strong and experienced riders and even expressed the wish to meet
you sometime.

Sergio
Pisa

Antti Salonen

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:27:26 AM2/8/02

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terry morse <tmorse...@terrymorse.com> wrote:

> Jobst Brandt wrote:

>> In Italian there is no J,K or Y and chi is pronounced kai and ghia
>> a hard g as in Karmann Ghia. In contrast, gi/ge is a j while ci/ce
>> is ch as in church. ciaina would bepronounced china.

> Pronunciation also depends on where you live in Italy, and each region
> steadfastly believes it has the monopoly on "proper" Italian. "Ci" may
> be pronounced "see" in one town and "chee" in another.

I suppose this is a good moment to ask something I've been wondering
about. How do you pronounce the "c" in Cinelli? I've always pronounced
it like the English "s", as it sounds better that way, but what is the
correct way?

-as

Sergio SERVADIO

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:41:46 AM2/8/02

to

> terry morse <tmorse...@terrymorse.com> wrote:
> I suppose this is a good moment to ask something I've been wondering
> about. How do you pronounce the "c" in Cinelli? I've always pronounced
> it like the English "s", as it sounds better that way, but what is the
> correct way?

Cinelli sounds like,

(I mean as if it were in English)

Chinelli

Sergio
Pisa

Bruce Abrams

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:13:12 PM2/8/02

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And the gold medal for most obtuse spam free email adress goes to Mr.
Sheffeld :-)

"Steven L. Sheffield" <ste...@veloworks.com> wrote in message
news:stevens-227322...@nnrp05.earthlink.net...

Matt O'Toole

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Feb 8, 2002, 7:09:02 PM2/8/02

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"Dennis P. Harris" <NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:qcr56u429usqvs1g9...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:52:09 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech,
> jh...@nyu.edu (John Henderson) wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:02:34 -0600, "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> > >(mar-SALES) Illinois.
> >
> > Des Moines (Dee Moin), IA and Des Plaines (Des Plains), IL.
> > Cairo (Kay-ro), IL.
> >
> we can always tell new radio and tv announcers in alaska because
> they don't know how to pronounce val-DEEZ (valdez), the pipeline
> port. for some strange reason they try to pronounce it like it
> was a spanish name...

Well, it is named after one of 'em...

I guess that's OK 'cuz in Los Angeles, which is over 50% Hispanic, we still
have Los FEEL-ihz (Los Feliz). Oh well, it's a white yuppie neighborhood
anyway.

> my dad always wanted to go to afghanistan because he was born
> near CAHbool (cabool), missourah.

Here in Virginia they have a Buhyoona Vista (Buena Vista). I hear there's a
good Eye-talian restaurant over there.

Matt O.

Michael Khaw

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Feb 9, 2002, 12:02:58 AM2/9/02

to

On the perils of pseudo Italian pronunciation (i.e., Doo-ra Ah-chay), I
once heard the following (possibly apocryphal) anecdote on the radio:

Opera diva Leontyne Price was visiting this S. California classical
station. The DJ hosting the program was thrilled and excited, and
proudly introduced her as Lay-on-tee-nay Pree-chay. Supposedly the
station manager fired this DJ promptly after the segment ended, for
being pretentious AND clueless.

Since Dura Ace is a name made up by Shimano, a Japanese company, and
Japan-Japanese really do tend to confuse "r" and "l", as well as
pronounce "c" as "she", as in "vitamin she", arguably its authentic
pronunciation should be: doo-la aay-she.

Michael Khaw

Tom Kunich

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Feb 9, 2002, 12:41:18 AM2/9/02

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"Michael Khaw" <mk...@zetanoveti.com> wrote in message
news:3C646731...@zetanoveti.com...

Imagine how much trouble Porky Pig would have with this.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Feb 9, 2002, 1:17:25 AM2/9/02

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"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Oe_88.20560$Hb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Actually, this is wrong. A monolingual japanese speaker has great difficulty
pronouncing L correctly, its always mistakenly delivered as R. They can do
the R sound fine. It has something to do with brain development, as you get
older your brain becomes best at delivering sounds that it commonly
delivers, and it forgets how to make sounds that are never used (apparently
there is no L sound in the japanese language). If a japanese child is raised
to be bilingual (japanese + english for example), he won't have this L--> R
problem. I think this affects speakers of other asian languages too, like
chinese. I heard about all this on the discovery channel so it must be true.

Coalinga, California (epicenter of a moderate earthquake some years ago,
hence in the news spotlight) has long adopted the pronunciation
"Ko-a-LING-ga" -- even though the town was originally a coal station
("Coaling 'A'").

Stevie

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Feb 10, 2002, 3:14:29 PM2/10/02

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"David L. Johnson" <david....@lehigh.edu> wrote in message
news:3C64997E...@lehigh.edu...

> Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote:
>
> > > > Japan-Japanese really do tend to confuse "r" and "l", as well as
> > > > pronounce "c" as "she", as in "vitamin she", arguably its authentic
> > > > pronunciation should be: doo-la aay-she.
> >
> > Actually, this is wrong. A monolingual japanese speaker has great
difficulty
> > pronouncing L correctly, its always mistakenly delivered as R. They can
do
> > the R sound fine. It has something to do with brain development, as you
get
> > older your brain becomes best at delivering sounds that it commonly
> > delivers, and it forgets how to make sounds that are never used
(apparently
> > there is no L sound in the japanese language).

Like Ed Zachary disease.

*do a Google search :)
--
Steve
(Reply address has been changed to protect the innocent)

David L. Johnson

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Feb 10, 2002, 5:48:26 PM2/10/02

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Van Bagnol wrote:

> Coalinga, California (epicenter of a moderate earthquake some years ago,
> hence in the news spotlight) has long adopted the pronunciation
> "Ko-a-LING-ga" -- even though the town was originally a coal station
> ("Coaling 'A'").

Cute. I never knew that that was where the name came from, and I grew up
calling it "Coal-ling-ga".

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

Kurt Zasadil

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Feb 11, 2002, 4:27:32 PM2/11/02

to

In article <inV88.13815$hi3.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Matt
O'Toole <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:

> Well, it is named after one of 'em...
>
> I guess that's OK 'cuz in Los Angeles, which is over 50% Hispanic, we still
> have Los FEEL-ihz (Los Feliz). Oh well, it's a white yuppie neighborhood
> anyway.

All the time I run across latinos who call the city by our port San
PEE-dro.

A personal peeve of mine is hearing Ballona Creek being pronounced like
the lunch-meat.

If you really want to be pedantic, Sepulveda shoul be se-pool-ve-da and
San Fernando should be fer-nawn-do as opposed to the universally used
fer-naan-do.

Mark Hickey

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Feb 11, 2002, 9:36:23 PM2/11/02

to

"Matt O'Toole" <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:

>Here in Virginia they have a Buhyoona Vista (Buena Vista). I hear there's a
>good Eye-talian restaurant over there.

Is that where they serve "ini food"?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Stuart Black

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Feb 12, 2002, 5:08:00 AM2/12/02

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Mark Janeba <mandml...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3C61F623...@attbi.com>...
> terry morse wrote:

>
> > Michael Khaw <mk...@zetanoveti.com> wrote:
> > > > You left off the towns New Berlin (BER-lin) Wisconsin and Marseilles
> > > > (mar-SALES) Illinois.

> > >> Isn't there also a Vienna (VY-anna) somewhere in the South (USA, that is)?
> > Don't forget Pierre (peer) South Dakota.
>
> I always thought the locals called it PEER-ee. Add to that:
>
> Buena Vista, Colorado: BYOO-nah VIS-tah
> DuBois, Wyoming: DOO boyz
> Pueblo, Colorado: PEE-blo (but only at a rodeo, apparently)
>
> Bicycle content: I have visited the latter three on bicycle tours. Perhaps one
> should avoid "high-falutin' yur-peen" pronunciations while traversing cowboys
> towns in lycra shorts, though I've never had a problem.
>
> Regards,
> Mark Janeba

I grew up in the Arkansas (Ark-an-saw, no Ar-Kansas please) River
Valley, a.k.a. as the Arkansas River Penal Colony, and I can tell you
that the real pronounciation of Pueblo, Colorado is Pee (little green
round thing), ebb (as in ebb and flow), la (the shorter the a the
better). So the real pronounciation is PEE-ebb-LA. And that is in
the great state of Colorada! And let's not forget that La HUnna (La
Junta, CO) is just down the road.

If you rode through Pueblo, I hope you tanked up on water before you
left town, because that is the last good water you can get for a very
long time. The town of Fowler (40 miles east) has water so bad that
the town moto is "Fowler: No place is!"

Stuart Black
(Proud escapee from Fowler)

Van Bagnol

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Feb 12, 2002, 8:15:53 AM2/12/02

to

In article <FM_88.253313$kf1.73...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "Ralph
Waldo Emerson" <r...@waldenpond.wet> wrote:

> "Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Oe_88.20560$Hb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > >

> > > Since Dura Ace is a name made up by Shimano, a Japanese company, and
> > > Japan-Japanese really do tend to confuse "r" and "l", as well as
> > > pronounce "c" as "she", as in "vitamin she", arguably its authentic
> > > pronunciation should be: doo-la aay-she.
>
> Actually, this is wrong. A monolingual japanese speaker has great
> difficulty pronouncing L correctly, its always mistakenly delivered
> as R. They can do the R sound fine.

Actually, Tom _is_ right. The phoneme used in the Japanese language lies
somewhere between /r/ and /l/, but which English-language ears interpret
as a slightly trilled 'r'. It is not the same liquid /r/ one would hear
from, say, a Midwesterner pronouncing "wash" as "warsh".

A close analogue would be an English speaker trying to pronounce (and
remember the difference between) the two /l/ sounds in Russian. The two
l's in "Leo Tolstoy" are actually pronounced differently, but an English
speaker would easily confuse the two, if he can detect it at all.

> It has something to do with brain development, as you get older your
> brain becomes best at delivering sounds that it commonly delivers,
> and it forgets how to make sounds that are never used

This is true.

> (apparently there is no L sound in the japanese language).

See above.

> If a japanese child is raised to be bilingual (japanese + english for
> example), he won't have this L--> R problem. I think this affects
> speakers of other asian languages too, like chinese.

This affects speakers of all languages who are learning a language with
a different phoneme set. A lot of native English speakers have trouble
with the French 'r' and the Spanish 'rr'. A lot of Spanish speakers have
trouble between the English /s/ and /z/, and end up pronouncing
everything as /s/.

Tom Kunich mentioned:

> > > Japan-Japanese really do tend to confuse "r" and "l", as well as
> > > pronounce "c" as "she", as in "vitamin she",

Yes, the "C" is pronounced as "she" because spoken Japanese, organized
by syllables rather than discrete phonemes, has no syllable for "si".
There is, however a syllable for "shi". The writing system for foreign
words (Katakana) reflects only the sounds spoken in Japanese, so there
isn't even a way to write "si". A direct transliteration of:
"Sammy Sosa sells seashells by the seashore"
would be something like:
"sami sosa seruzu shiiseruzu bai za shii shoru"

Back to topic: the Japanese pronunciation of "Dura Ace" would probably
only be a prosaic "dura eisu".

However, "Lance Armstrong" could be "Ransu Arumusutorongu" -- had he
been born in Japan instead of Tekkusasu (Texas).

Eric A Holeman

unread,

Feb 12, 2002, 8:17:02 PM2/12/02

to

In article <van-B17E6E.0...@news.earthlink.net>,
Van Bagnol <v...@crl.com.invalid> wrote:

>> (apparently there is no L sound in the japanese language).
>See above.

I found that my pronunciation of the Japanese word for my favorite
beverage, "biiru", was never understood. When I substituted an "l" sound
for the "r" I was mispronouncing, the hoppy liquid would magically appear.

>Back to topic: the Japanese pronunciation of "Dura Ace" would probably
>only be a prosaic "dura eisu".

unread,

Feb 13, 2002, 4:14:17 PM2/13/02

to

In article <3c69c33a....@netnews.att.net>, ma...@habcycles.com
(Mark Hickey) wrote:

> Michael Khaw <mk...@zetanoveti.com> wrote:
>
> >"Pocari Sweat?", "Calpis?" (both are beverages)
>
> What do you expect from a nation that thinks fermented cabbage
> slathered in red pepper paste is a staple food? ;-)
>
> Mark (actually like kimchee though) Hickey

Actually, I'm kinda more partial to kimchee (Korean) than to tsukemono
(Japanese). Hamburger patty, kimchee, and rice .... mmm!

Never tried Calpis, though. However, if you told a Japanese person that
you found a real nice chichi (pronounced "sheeshee") restaurant in
Beverly Hills, you'd get a very surprised reaction.

Van (yes, I actually eat it) Bagnol

David Ahn

unread,

Feb 15, 2002, 3:29:39 AM2/15/02

to

Van Bagnol () wrote:
: > >"Pocari Sweat?", "Calpis?" (both are beverages)

: Never tried Calpis, though. However, if you told a Japanese person that

: you found a real nice chichi (pronounced "sheeshee") restaurant in
: Beverly Hills, you'd get a very surprised reaction.

i don't know whether van's description of japanese 'r' and 'l' is correct,
but as far as i know, in korean, there is a single phoneme which is
realized sometimes as an [l] and sometimes as an [r] (but a real [r] and
not the approximant that americans use). the reason koreans confuse 'r'
and 'l' has to do with the fact that the two are in complementary
distribution in their native tongue and is not because they are somehow
unable to articulate one or the other. the approximant that americans
use for /r/ is actually hard for native korean speakers to articulate,
but i imagine it's hard for native speakers of most other languages, as
well (italian, which i think started this thread, has a real 'r').

david ahn