Sterilization by microwave oven
ton4
instruction manual, and I have yet to get reply on the internet.
For a standard (700-1200 watt) microwave oven, how long must a bottle,
washcloth, bandage, toothbrush etc. be left in it to fully kill
microorganisms and sterilize it, as opposed to (short of) actually
cooking/burning the item?
(Warning: Include a cup of water when zapping non-foods unless you're
after special effects.)
Steve Harris
news:550e20a0.0204...@posting.google.com...
Why do you think a microwave oven even can be used to sterilize things? The
first question to ask is not "how long" but "yes or no".
--
I welcome Email from strangers with the minimal cleverness to fix my address
(it's an open-book test). I strongly recommend recipients of unsolicited
bulk Email ad spam use "http://combat.uxn.com" to get the true corporate
name of the last ISP address on the viewsource header, then forward message
& headers to "abuse@[offendingISP]."
Steve Harris
"Mike Roose" <somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mhsebus8pcpb5bcfq...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Apr 2002 16:17:35 -0700, way...@lycos.com (ton4) wrote:
>
> |For a standard (700-1200 watt) microwave oven, how long must a bottle,
> |washcloth, bandage, toothbrush etc. be left in it to fully kill
> |microorganisms and sterilize it, as opposed to (short of) actually
> |cooking/burning the item?
>
>
> Put them in boiling water.......in the microwave.
Boiling water doesn't sterilize. If it were only that easy!
The best boiling water does is mildly sanitize.
SBH
Uncle Al
Won't work, or the medical industry would save a fortune using it for
sterilizing dielectrics. Dehydrated tissue just sits there. Try
putting some ants in there (with a cup of water as ballast) and blast
away. See if beef jerky gets hot.
Killing things is hard work: steam under 15 psig pressure at 121.1 C
for 30-45 minutes; a megarad of Co-60 gamma or e-beam. Dry heat takes
forever. The Post Office is hitting Washington, DC mail with 6-10
MRad of e-beam. Mail combusts at radiation doses giving four or five
nines anthrax spore kill. The mind boggles - though the sterilization
line is being run by imbeciles.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
X-Ray
> This would be good to know, but it's not in my microwave oven
> instruction manual, and I have yet to get reply on the internet.
>
> For a standard (700-1200 watt) microwave oven, how long must a bottle,
> washcloth, bandage, toothbrush etc. be left in it to fully kill
> microorganisms and sterilize it, as opposed to (short of) actually
> cooking/burning the item?
>
I'd guess that highly depends on which material to put into the
moven "together with the microorganisms" cause if they're e.g. swimming
in water which keeps them from overheating too rapidly it might take
longer to kill them compared to having them in a bad electric energy
absorber (anything non-polar).
--
Frank
"Life is a game. There really is only _one_ rule:
DON'T DIE!" - F.S.
X-Ray
> oven can, you need laboratory procedures and controls to effect real
> sterilization. But if you just want to sanitize a wet dish sponge,
Maybe I'm proofing ignorant in this matter but to my knowledge
all microorganisms consist of more or less polar compounds
(like water, solved salts, polar amino acids) which will
take up the mwave's energy through resonance and after a long
enough time they should either pop or dry out and oxidize.
It should just be a matter of time of exposure.
Repeating Decimal
Uncl...@hate.spam.net wrote on 4/12/02 5:17 PM:
> Won't work, or the medical industry would save a fortune using it for
> sterilizing dielectrics. Dehydrated tissue just sits there. Try
> putting some ants in there (with a cup of water as ballast) and blast
> away. See if beef jerky gets hot.
I have had fruit flies fly out happily from microwave ovens. Even a house
fly takes a long time.
Bill
Repeating Decimal
4/12/02 7:49 PM:
>> A microwave won't do that. And while a pressure cooker or conventional
>> oven can, you need laboratory procedures and controls to effect real
>> sterilization. But if you just want to sanitize a wet dish sponge,
>
> Maybe I'm proofing ignorant in this matter but to my knowledge
> all microorganisms consist of more or less polar compounds
> (like water, solved salts, polar amino acids) which will
> take up the mwave's energy through resonance and after a long
> enough time they should either pop or dry out and oxidize.
>
> It should just be a matter of time of exposure.
Maybe so. But small critters have large surface to volume ratios that go
like 1/r. Thus, small particles (bacteria, fruit flies and the like) cool
off faster than the get heated. The bottom line: If they don't get cooked,
they don't get killed.
Bill
Steve Harris
news:B8DD23AA.83D8%Salm...@attbi.com...
Yes, you beat me to this comment. Microwave absorption is by volume, but
cooling by convection is by surface area. For a little critter you just
can't heat it up enough to hurt it, because the equilibrium temp for these
competing processes in small drops (so long as air in the oven is cool) is
not at a high enough temp.
For those who don't believe, take two cups of the sort that don't absorb
microwaves, fill one with cold water and invert the other empty and put a
thin film of water in the "bottom" (now the top). Zap them both together in
your oven until water in the full one is hot (just at the edge you can stand
to put your finger in). Now, stick you finger in the film on the other. Is
it boiling? No-- barely warm. That also happens with ants, and with a
vengeance in anything smaller.
SBH
--
Steve Harris
You can email me at sbhar...@ix.netcom.com
But remove the numerals in the address first.
==============================
Our nada who art in Nada
Nada be thy nada..
-- Dada Hemingway
==========================
franz heymann
If it really worked, hospitals would have been awash with microwave
ovens and the operating costs of the NHS would have been much lower.
Franz Heymann
Franz Heymann
Chris Oates
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message
news:a97qi6$omh$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> "ton4" <way...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:550e20a0.0204...@posting.google.com...
> > This would be good to know, but it's not in my microwave oven
> > instruction manual, and I have yet to get reply on the internet.
> >
> > For a standard (700-1200 watt) microwave oven, how long must a bottle,
> > washcloth, bandage, toothbrush etc. be left in it to fully kill
> > microorganisms and sterilize it, as opposed to (short of) actually
> > cooking/burning the item?
> >
> > (Warning: Include a cup of water when zapping non-foods unless you're
> > after special effects.)
>
>
> Why do you think a microwave oven even can be used to sterilize things?
The
> first question to ask is not "how long" but "yes or no".
Microwave sterilizers are available items
http://www.pharmnet2000.com/Avent/electric-microwave-sterilizers.htm
very dependant on water though.
Chris
Michael Mcneil
potato in and set the timer to full. When I got back it had half
dissoved and half sublimed. The potato was a glowing lump of charcoal in
the carnage. My sister was not amused. It was a brand new one (hers)
with all sorts of bells and whistles. Wouldn't you have thought that
with all those computer chips and things it would have had the sense to
switch itself off? And I didn't have anything to eat too, neither.
Have you thought of buying a Milton's Sterilising Kit?
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Maleki
stop yeast infection in them is to microwave their
underwear.
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message news:a97qi6$omh$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
ton4
> Microwave sterilizers are available items
>
> http://www.pharmnet2000.com/Avent/electric-microwave-sterilizers.htm
>
> very dependant on water though.
>
> Chris
Steve, you can assume that if something is cooked, burned or charred,
it's probably dead and sterile, and who's "Mike Roose"? Sounds like a
hacker, there Steve.
Where I might be wrong is in supposing that a cell or organism dies
sometime before it actually ruptures or dries up.
These ovens cook due to molecular excitation of an item from
microwaves, no matter the size of the molecule or the number of
molecules getting zapped, if they're getting zapped. As for replies
related to "cooks by volume, cools by surface area" and little
critters dodge the bullet, a suitable explanation is the oven's uneven
radiation and the coincidence of positioning the item in a cool spot
in the oven.
Hospitals buy stuff prepackaged sterile.
Reusables like metal surgical tools present an obvious problem in this
particular task.
I don't think the medical/health care industry is necessary prone to
leap in and immerse itself in good ideas either, not that this is a
good idea, but let's not go there.
Thanks for the url, Chris. Looks like maximum steam sanitation, all
right. As these folks have looked into it, I suppose my above suppose
might be wrong. Organisms perhaps go straight from alive but just
really uncomfortable to kaboom.
Uncle Al
>
> I cooked a microwave once. It redecorated the kitchen twice. I put a
> potato in and set the timer to full. When I got back it had half
> dissoved and half sublimed. The potato was a glowing lump of charcoal in
> the carnage. My sister was not amused. It was a brand new one (hers)
> with all sorts of bells and whistles. Wouldn't you have thought that
> with all those computer chips and things it would have had the sense to
> switch itself off? And I didn't have anything to eat too, neither.
>
> Have you thought of buying a Milton's Sterilising Kit?
Reality doesn't scale linearly.
Richard Saam
Steve Harris wrote:
{snip}
> >
> > Maybe so. But small critters have large surface to volume ratios that go
> > like 1/r. Thus, small particles (bacteria, fruit flies and the like) cool
> > off faster than the get heated. The bottom line: If they don't get cooked,
> > they don't get killed.
> >
> > Bill
>
> Yes, you beat me to this comment. Microwave absorption is by volume, but
> cooling by convection is by surface area. For a little critter you just
> can't heat it up enough to hurt it, because the equilibrium temp for these
> competing processes in small drops (so long as air in the oven is cool) is
> not at a high enough temp.
>
> For those who don't believe, take two cups of the sort that don't absorb
> microwaves, fill one with cold water and invert the other empty and put a
> thin film of water in the "bottom" (now the top). Zap them both together in
> your oven until water in the full one is hot (just at the edge you can stand
> to put your finger in). Now, stick you finger in the film on the other. Is
> it boiling? No-- barely warm. That also happens with ants, and with a
> vengeance in anything smaller.
>
> SBH
>
> --
> Steve Harris
There is also a focusing effect.
Put an apple in the microwave for about 45 seconds. The outside will be only
warm, but the core will be very hot apple sauce . Don't bite into it.
Doesn't this whole idea of microwave heating come down to size of heated object
relative to microwave wavelength on the order of centimeters? Ants and water
films are less than a cm so they do not interact with microwave energy. A
cockroach may have problems.
For larger objects microwave absorption is by volume, but
cooling by convection is by surface area as previously stated.
I would guess that two well thermally insulated volumes of water of dimensions
much greater than a centimeter placed in a microwave at the same time
.5 V & 1 V would have the same temperature after a period of time
If the .5 V was placed in the microwave by itself it would heat twice as fast
as the 1 V placed in the microwave by itself.
Richard Saam
jmfb...@aol.com
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>
>"Mike Roose" <somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:mhsebus8pcpb5bcfq...@4ax.com...
>> On 12 Apr 2002 16:17:35 -0700, way...@lycos.com (ton4) wrote:
>>
>> |For a standard (700-1200 watt) microwave oven, how long must a bottle,
>> |washcloth, bandage, toothbrush etc. be left in it to fully kill
>> |microorganisms and sterilize it, as opposed to (short of) actually
>> |cooking/burning the item?
>>
>> I didn't know it could.
>>
>> Put them in boiling water.......in the microwave.
>
>
>Boiling water doesn't sterilize. If it were only that easy!
>
>The best boiling water does is mildly sanitize.
It cuts through grease. I was told to use vinegar to clean
out stuff that became tainted when I was taking care of JMF.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
ton4
> TV once announced that the only way women could
> stop yeast infection in them is to microwave their
> underwear.
>
in their microwave is to wear underwear. Yeah, I saw that one too,
ace.
Steve Harris
news:3CB8627C...@att.net...
Several misconceptions:
> There is also a focusing effect.
> Put an apple in the microwave for about 45 seconds. The outside will be
only
> warm, but the core will be very hot apple sauce . Don't bite into it.
I haven't tried it, but if you get such an effect it's not due to focusing,
but convective cooling of the skin. Microwaves heat from outside-in, just
like other stuff. But they penetrate several cm, perhaps enough to get to
the core of an apple. However, they should heat the rind, if anything, even
more.
> Doesn't this whole idea of microwave heating come down to size of heated
object
> relative to microwave wavelength on the order of centimeters?
No. Wavelength has nothing to do with any of this, except that the
absorption of materials from dielectric heating (which is what this is,
essentially), does depend on frequency. Lower freqencies penetrate farther.
AFAIK, the fact that in water the characteristic half-distance (50%
absorption distance) is on the same order as the wavelength (here about an
inch) is pure coincidence. It would be something else for some other
absorbtive fluid (alcohol).
Ants and water
> films are less than a cm so they do not interact with microwave energy. A
> cockroach may have problems.
No, they interact just as well. But they are cooled by air.
> I would guess that two well thermally insulated volumes of water of
dimensions
> much greater than a centimeter placed in a microwave at the same time
>
> .5 V & 1 V would have the same temperature after a period of time
Yes, if they're insulated.
>
> If the .5 V was placed in the microwave by itself it would heat twice as
fast
> as the 1 V placed in the microwave by itself.
This is true, of course, for cup-sized volumes of fluid, but has nothing to
do with what we're discussing. If you put half as much water in the
microwave, the microwave field inside your oven is effectively twice as
strong, so you DO get heating twice as fast. However, there is a limit to
this, because there's a limit to the microwave E field your magnetron can
generate without internal voltage breakdown and sparking (what happens if
you use the oven empty with no absorptive load). You can't put ants alone
and no water in there without risking damage to the oven.
I doubt you can harm ants even at the effective limit of the oven's
microwave intensity, which is set by the lowest amount of water you can put
in, with out damaging it. I don't know how much that is.
SBH
Steve Harris
> "Chris Oates" <chriso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<a98t24$ol5$2...@helle.btinternet.com>...
> > "Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message
> > [Zap.]
>
> > Microwave sterilizers are available items
> >
> > http://www.pharmnet2000.com/Avent/electric-microwave-sterilizers.htm
> >
> > very dependant on water though.
> >
> > Chris
It is indeed-- just a complicated way of boiling stuff.
And, BTW, these aren't really "sterilizers" but rather sanitizers. The FDA
only allows the term in connection with nursing bottles and nipples because
it's an old one (and nondescriptive if you take it literally). You could not
possibly use one of these like an autoclave for a medical practice for
instuments, though I suppose it (like boiling) would be better than nothing.
Autoclaves are expensive, and they are in use still for a reason!
To kill bugs reliably at steam temp you need pressure. Even home canning and
bottling isn't reliable, and works only because you're doing it for
relatively clean fruit and vegetables, and only trying to kill a few classes
of bugs. Do a lot of meat that way without pressure, and eventually it's
going to get you.
SBH
--
I welcome Email from strangers with the minimal cleverness to fix my address
(it's an open-book test). I strongly recommend recipients of unsolicited
bulk Email ad spam use "http://combat.uxn.com" to get the true corporate
name of the last ISP address on the viewsource header, then forward message
& headers to "abuse@[offendingISP]."
.
Ian Stirling
>
> "Richard Saam" <rds...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:3CB8627C...@att.net...
>
> Several misconceptions:
>
>
>
>> There is also a focusing effect.
>> Put an apple in the microwave for about 45 seconds. The outside will be
> only
>> warm, but the core will be very hot apple sauce . Don't bite into it.
>
>
> I haven't tried it, but if you get such an effect it's not due to focusing,
> but convective cooling of the skin. Microwaves heat from outside-in, just
> like other stuff. But they penetrate several cm, perhaps enough to get to
Hmm.
What is the shape of the depth function though.
If the diameter of the apple is sayt 10cm, and the microwaves penetrate
8cm, then the core may get more heat than the sides, as microwaves can
get at it from both sides.
Convection ios also.
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"An enemy will usually have three courses open to him. Of these he will
select the fourth." -- Helmuth von Moltke
ton4
> Michael Mcneil wrote:
> >
> > I cooked a microwave once. It redecorated the kitchen twice. I put a
> > potato in and set the timer to full. When I got back it had half
> > dissoved and half sublimed. The potato was a glowing lump of charcoal in
> > the carnage. My sister was not amused. It was a brand new one (hers)
> > with all sorts of bells and whistles. Wouldn't you have thought that
> > with all those computer chips and things it would have had the sense to
> > switch itself off? And I didn't have anything to eat too, neither.
> >
> > Have you thought of buying a Milton's Sterilising Kit?
>
> Reality doesn't scale linearly.
Whatever, unca.
Quote Steve: "Wavelength has nothing to do with any of this, except
that [it] does..."
I think the relationship between microwave length and the size of the
object being tested proceeds according to a formula that allows
certain critical movement of molecular organizations from areas of
rapid excitation to areas of less excitation, not unlike you
demonstrate in this thread.
Interested in the original question? Check out Good Housekeeping.
Rich Andrews
news:0764503e6256ef81c86...@mygate.mailgate.org:
> I cooked a microwave once. It redecorated the kitchen twice. I put a
> potato in and set the timer to full. When I got back it had half
> dissoved and half sublimed. The potato was a glowing lump of charcoal in
> the carnage. My sister was not amused. It was a brand new one (hers)
> with all sorts of bells and whistles. Wouldn't you have thought that
> with all those computer chips and things it would have had the sense to
> switch itself off? And I didn't have anything to eat too, neither.
>
> Have you thought of buying a Milton's Sterilising Kit?
>
>
You, by your own admission, have defined the level of your ignorance.
There is no shame in ignorance, only stupidity.
rich
--
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed, or
numbered...My life is my own."
"I am not a number. I am a free man."
No. 6
William J. Beaty
> Doesn't this whole idea of microwave heating come down to size of heated object
> relative to microwave wavelength on the order of centimeters? Ants and water
> films are less than a cm so they do not interact with microwave energy. A
> cockroach may have problems.
The wavelength would have an effect on electric currents in a
conductive object, but not when heating by dielectric absorbtion.
Pure water, oil, etc., get hot because the dipole molecules
wiggle during alternating voltage, not because there are electric
currents in the materials.
PS, from experience with cooking I find that bacteria are killed
by boiling, but mold spores are not. Perhaps bacterial spores
also can survive boiling? When sterilizing jars for growing
edible mushrooms from culture, the rule of thumb is 15PSI for
15 minutes (in a pressure cooker.)
Maleki
"ton4" <way...@lycos.com> wrote in message news:550e20a0.02041...@posting.google.com...
Hehe :) No I meant it the way I said it. Washing or boiling water, etc,
evidently doesn't kill the germs on the underwear. Microwaving was
the answer according to that news piece.
Uncle Al
Deinococcus radiodurans laughs at 1.5 million rads. It grows in the
(radiologically) hot loop of reactor coolant. Archaeoglobus fulgidus
and Aquifex aeolicus laugh at 110 C continuous.
Repeating Decimal
sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com wrote on 4/13/02 11:24 AM:
> To kill bugs reliably at steam temp you need pressure. Even home canning and
> bottling isn't reliable, and works only because you're doing it for
> relatively clean fruit and vegetables, and only trying to kill a few classes
> of bugs. Do a lot of meat that way without pressure, and eventually it's
> going to get you.
The way pressure affects sterilization is by increasing the temperature of
water above what it would be in an open container. Higher boiling point
unpressurized liquids other than pressurized water would be just as
effective. The advantaged of thermal sterilization is that if you wait long
enough all heated items reach elevated temperature. There are voids that
would prevent toxic liquids at low temperature from getting to the bugs you
want killed.
I suppose that it is possible to have something like the insulating tiles
used to protect spacecraft that may require a very long time to reach
temperature.
Bill
Maleki
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:3CB8FDDD...@hate.spam.net...
> Maleki wrote:
> >
> > "ton4" <way...@lycos.com> wrote in message news:550e20a0.02041...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Maleki" <male...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a99b8k$1dl0s$1...@ID-20678.news.dfncis.de>...
> > > > TV once announced that the only way women could
> > > > stop yeast infection in them is to microwave their
> > > > underwear.
> > > >
> > > I think you mean, the only way women on TV could stop yeast infection
> > > in their microwave is to wear underwear. Yeah, I saw that one too,
> > > ace.
> >
> > Hehe :) No I meant it the way I said it. Washing or boiling water, etc,
> > evidently doesn't kill the germs on the underwear. Microwaving was
> > the answer according to that news piece.
>
> Deinococcus radiodurans laughs at 1.5 million rads. It grows in the
> (radiologically) hot loop of reactor coolant. Archaeoglobus fulgidus
> and Aquifex aeolicus laugh at 110 C continuous.
>
The news piece indicated that even steam ironing will not
kill the germs responsible for yeast infection. Only microwaving
could do it. This news belong to early 90s. I have no idea if it was
true (it was mentioned in one of the major networks regular news
programs) or effective enough by today's standards.
I don't know enough about reactors to know what type of
radiation you're talking about, as different types obviously
damage cells at different severities. Use rem instead. I know
(from Chernobyl) that 100 rems is already bad for human cells.
Repeating Decimal
>> "Richard Saam" <rds...@att.net> wrote in message
>> news:3CB8627C...@att.net...
>>
>> Several misconceptions:
>>
>>
>>
>>> There is also a focusing effect.
>>> Put an apple in the microwave for about 45 seconds. The outside will be
>> only
>>> warm, but the core will be very hot apple sauce . Don't bite into it.
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried it, but if you get such an effect it's not due to focusing,
>> but convective cooling of the skin. Microwaves heat from outside-in, just
>> like other stuff. But they penetrate several cm, perhaps enough to get to
If heat is generated uniformly throughout a sphere, the temperature in the
center will be higher than that of the surface. As heat flows out from the
center there is a temperature gradient along the direction of heat flow.
There are other effects such as the skin effect that may prevent energy
penetrating into the center. Even so with nonuniform but symmetrical
heating, in steady state, the net temperature gradient points toward the
center so that the center is where the temperature will be greatest.
Bill
Repeating Decimal
at bi...@eskimo.com wrote on 4/13/02 8:03 PM:
> The wavelength would have an effect on electric currents in a
> conductive object, but not when heating by dielectric absorbtion.
> Pure water, oil, etc., get hot because the dipole molecules
> wiggle during alternating voltage, not because there are electric
> currents in the materials.
>
> PS, from experience with cooking I find that bacteria are killed
> by boiling, but mold spores are not. Perhaps bacterial spores
> also can survive boiling? When sterilizing jars for growing
> edible mushrooms from culture, the rule of thumb is 15PSI for
> 15 minutes (in a pressure cooker.)
The dielectric constant of a material has an imaginary component. That is
what absorbs. This imaginary component of a complex dielectric constant
corresponds to a real conductivity. Except for a possible sign error and
multiplying constant, the complex dielectric constant is
Complex dielectric constant =
lossless dielectric constant + j times the equivalent conductivity.
Here j is the EE way of expressing sqrt(-1).
This combination leads to a skin effect that limits the penetration of
electric waves into a material.
Bill
CBI
>
> The dielectric constant of a material has an imaginary component. That is
> what absorbs. This imaginary component of a complex dielectric constant
> corresponds to a real conductivity. Except for a possible sign error and
> multiplying constant, the complex dielectric constant is
>
> Complex dielectric constant =
>
> lossless dielectric constant + j times the equivalent conductivity.
>
> Here j is the EE way of expressing sqrt(-1).
>
> This combination leads to a skin effect that limits the penetration of
> electric waves into a material.
>
Thanks for clearing that up.
Happy Dog
> If heat is generated uniformly throughout a sphere,
Which, in a microwave oven, it isn't.
erf
Steve Harris
"Happy Dog" <happ...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:gwbu8.69$5J3....@news20.bellglobal.com...
It is for small spheres!
Steve Harris
"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a9b5it$dom$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Into a conductor. Applies to the surface of your HF antenna, not meat and
biologics.
Steve Harris
>
> >> "Richard Saam" <rds...@att.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3CB8627C...@att.net...
> >>
> >> Several misconceptions:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> There is also a focusing effect.
> >>> Put an apple in the microwave for about 45 seconds. The outside will
be
> >> only
> >>> warm, but the core will be very hot apple sauce . Don't bite into it.
> >>
> >>
> >> I haven't tried it, but if you get such an effect it's not due to
focusing,
> >> but convective cooling of the skin. Microwaves heat from outside-in,
just
> >> like other stuff. But they penetrate several cm, perhaps enough to get
to
>
> If heat is generated uniformly throughout a sphere, the temperature in the
> center will be higher than that of the surface. As heat flows out from the
> center there is a temperature gradient along the direction of heat flow.
There will be no heat flow with an insulated surface. Otherwise, the
mechanism you describe is what I said, just in different words. BTW, there
won't be much of a gradient with a surface contact insulation large in
comparison with the object's conductivity, ether. For biologics being
perfused with blood, it typically isn't ("conductivity" here being not
straight diffusive thermal conductivity, but forced advective heat transfer
due to circulation-- still works the same).
> There are other effects such as the skin effect that may prevent energy
> penetrating into the center. Even so with nonuniform but symmetrical
> heating, in steady state, the net temperature gradient points toward the
> center so that the center is where the temperature will be greatest.
Sure. And when not in steady state also. But all this assumes heat leak at
surface.
--
Steve Harris
You can email me at sbhar...@ix.netcom.com
But remove the numerals in the address first.
==============================
Our nada who art in Nada
Nada be thy nada..
-- Dada Hemingway
==========================
Peter Fackelmann
There are even some bugs which need slow increase of temp/pressure.
If they get "shocked" they close up and survive.
There are 2 temp. levels with corresponding pressure in an autoclave:
121 °C in several medical applications (10 minutes)
139 °C in bacteriology (forgot the time)
Time starts after reaching the temperature.
All this cannot be done in a microwave unit.
Another approach is thermo-chemical sterilization at 70 °C.
This could be done in a microwave unit but a standard domestic unit
doesn't have the necessary temp/time control.
And don't forget proper repackaging.
This must be done immediately, otherwise your piece is contaminated
again pretty fast.
Regards
Peter
In article <a99t5n$elg$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
Repeating Decimal
SBHar...@ix.netcom.com wrote on 4/14/02 2:13 AM:
Meat and biologicals also obey the laws of physics. There are people who
find that concept to be against their religion. But that was also the case
before the field of organic chemistry was established. That is, most chemist
thought that some "vital force" was required to produce compounds of life.
When it comes to Maxwell's equations, they are independent of the organic or
inorganic nature of the material. There is the possibility of a nonlinear
material, but that occurs in the inorganic world as well.
Bill
Michael Mcneil
There is no shame in ignorance, only stupidity.
Ignorance? I have an enquiring mind. It will not protect me from my own
stupidity but it is ideal shelter from ignorance. Without a modicum of
shame for either and both, there can be no reason for improvement other
than greed.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Rich Andrews
Electric waves? Electricity flowing through a conductor is not the same as
RF and at microwave frequencies, all bets are off.
Rich Andrews
> You, by your own admission, have defined the level of your ignorance.
> There is no shame in ignorance, only stupidity.
>
> Ignorance? I have an enquiring mind. It will not protect me from my own
> stupidity but it is ideal shelter from ignorance. Without a modicum of
> shame for either and both, there can be no reason for improvement other
> than greed.
>
>
Ignorance is easily resolved with education, but stupidity rejects
education.
If you refused to ever use a microwave again because it destroyed your
potato, that would be stupidity. Therefore you are not stupid.
The desire to better oneself through education is a great motivator. No
greed involved there nor is there any shame either.
Keith F. Lynch
> And, BTW, these aren't really "sterilizers" but rather sanitizers.
What temperature for how much time does it take to reliably sterilize?
Thanks.
--
Keith F. Lynch - k...@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
ton4
> "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:3CB8FDDD...@hate.spam.net...
> > Maleki wrote:
> The news piece indicated that even steam ironing will not
> kill the germs responsible for yeast infection. Only microwaving
> could do it. This news belong to early 90s. I have no idea if it was
> true (it was mentioned in one of the major networks regular news
> programs) or effective enough by today's standards.
>
Huh. Sorry, I thought you were joking. Appreciate your reply.
Suggest the following to all in this discussin, wherever they are by
now:
1. Determine the "hot spot" in microwave. Both the center and
approximate size of this area could be determined from a thin layer of
cheese on paper or foil spead evenly throughout the floor of the oven,
then marking the melt zone or zones center/s, bein the only area of
interest to be used in the next step, even if its small, like a square
inch or less.
2. Zap some critters that will hold still. Place a dish with some
inanimate, consistent, even culture in the hot zone/s and zap it at
intervals, examining the culture at the end of each interval for
cellular death. That will be the amount of time in which sterility is
achieved for that particular bug in a microwave.
I would think that each and every known bug has a measurable zap time
to death, no matter the bug. I don't have the equipment to do
something like this with microbugs. I do have ants. A small jar of
them in the known hot spot of my microwave would only give me an
approximate zap time for ant termination.
3. Find a way to evenly distribute microwaves throughout the oven so
that sterilization is reliable over the entire area. Some microwavable
cooking containers are promoted for their ability to evenly cook whats
inside, though I sort of doubt it. If true, it seems as though oven
makers would line their products with whatever material achieves this
and do away with rotisseries. I've heard it said that aluminum foil
also provides even distribution.
Could be that uneven distribution is the only reason microwave ovens
aren't used for sterilization. This thread hasn't killed the possible
practical utility of microwave sterilization yet, in my view.
Steve Harris
Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. There's a reason you can see
through a dielectric like glass, but you can't see through a block of metal,
okay? Maxwell's equations are the same, but the propagation of EM waves is
vastly different in conductors and dielectrics. The equations for the index
of refraction for the two types of materials are not the same. Moreover, the
index in conductors (as opposed to dielectrics) is highly dependent on
frequency WITH a non-linear transmission cutoff in conductors above which
the complex index is mostly real, and below which, it is mostly imaginary.
The concept of skin-depth applies to conducters BELOW this critical
frequency, where the very high imaginary part of the index forces much more
rapid absorption. Above it, you get penetration like X-rays through metals.
With non-conductors, however, you get a mostly real index no matter what you
do, and X-ray-like penetration for radio and microwave. In such
circumstances your stuff about the imaginary component of the index is true
but irrelevent, because it's so small compared to the real component. For
such systems the "skin effect" does not exist, unless you're prepared to
regard the "skin" as being several cm or even meters in depth. But that
would be silly. If the 1/e skin depth for a microwave oven is an inch, why
even bring up the subject for a 1/10th inch long ant?
Ian Stirling
> Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. There's a reason you can see
> through a dielectric like glass, but you can't see through a block of metal,
> okay? Maxwell's equations are the same, but the propagation of EM waves is
> vastly different in conductors and dielectrics. The equations for the index
> of refraction for the two types of materials are not the same. Moreover, the
> index in conductors (as opposed to dielectrics) is highly dependent on
> frequency WITH a non-linear transmission cutoff in conductors above which
> the complex index is mostly real, and below which, it is mostly imaginary.
> The concept of skin-depth applies to conducters BELOW this critical
> frequency, where the very high imaginary part of the index forces much more
> rapid absorption. Above it, you get penetration like X-rays through metals.
> With non-conductors, however, you get a mostly real index no matter what you
> do, and X-ray-like penetration for radio and microwave. In such
Glass (soda-lime, as used in most windows, for example) absorbs moderately
strongly in the microwave.
I've melted glass in a 600W microwave.
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
Two parrots sitting on a perch. One asks the other, "Can you smell fish?"
ton4
[zap]
> Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear... There's a reason you can see
> through a dielectric like glass, but you can't see through a block of metal,
> okay? Maxwell's equations are the same, but the propagation of EM waves is
> vastly different in conductors and dielectrics. The equations for the index
> of refraction for the two types of materials are not the same. Moreover, the
> index in conductors (as opposed to dielectrics) is highly dependent on
> frequency WITH a non-linear transmission cutoff in conductors above which
> the complex index is mostly real, and below which, it is mostly imaginary.
> The concept of skin-depth applies to conducters BELOW this critical
> frequency, where the very high imaginary part of the index forces much more
> rapid absorption. Above it, you get penetration like X-rays through metals.
> With non-conductors, however, you get a mostly real index no matter what you
> do, and X-ray-like penetration for radio and microwave. In such
> circumstances your stuff about the imaginary component of the index is true
> but irrelevent, because it's so small compared to the real component. For
> such systems the "skin effect" does not exist, unless you're prepared to
> regard the "skin" as being several cm or even meters in depth. But that
> would be silly. If the 1/e skin depth for a microwave oven is an inch, why
> even bring up the subject for a 1/10th inch long ant?
>
> SBH
Earth to Steve, Earth to Steve ... Come in ...
... The cheese dip around the edge of the bowl in the microwave boils
first. You pause this action before the building rind turns to rock,
and you stir, stir, stir. Then you put the cheese dip back in the
oven, where the dip around the edge of the bowl boils first again.
You just have to stir some more. This is repeated until the entire dip
is hot enough that the onions and garlic aren't so overpowering when
you eat it. For more information, see post 42, and if you want the
recipe, I'll be happy to send it along.
Does this help ... over ...?
Steve Harris
> > circumstances your stuff about the imaginary component of the index is
true
> > but irrelevent, because it's so small compared to the real component.
For
> > such systems the "skin effect" does not exist, unless you're prepared to
> > regard the "skin" as being several cm or even meters in depth. But that
> > would be silly. If the 1/e skin depth for a microwave oven is an inch,
why
> > even bring up the subject for a 1/10th inch long ant?
> >
> > SBH
>
> Earth to Steve, Earth to Steve ... Come in ...
>
> ... The cheese dip around the edge of the bowl in the microwave boils
> first. You pause this action before the building rind turns to rock,
> Does this help ... over ...?
Not really, for it contradicts nothing I said. The outer inch of cheese dip
boils, not some skin which would otherwise broil and char, as happens when
you put cheese dip under the hot infrared of a broiling element in your
stove (where you really do have a thin skin effect in radiation absorption).
Call me back when you manage to broil stuff in your microwave, okay?
hanson
news:550e20a0.02041...@posting.google.com...
> Could be that uneven distribution is the only reason microwave ovens
> aren't used for sterilization. This thread hasn't killed the possible
> practical utility of microwave sterilization yet, in my view.
I think MW is too harsh instead of too feeble for sterilisation.
But first,
Thanks to all you respondents of this thread for having given
me a reason to make my lovely woman happy by buying her a
brand-new MWO Panasonic, 1300 Watts.
To test the MWO and all your theoretical pontifications about
sterilization by MW, I, unlike you guys, DID it, EXPERIMENTALLY.
From the pomegranate tree I brushed 22 ants (~ 2 mm long
each) into a glass char with plastic lid and MWO'd them for 60 sec.
The ants were not only dead, the were fried and roasted. Black!
Next experiment.
1 slice of Gallo Hard Salami, cubed into 1/8 to 1/16 inch
pieces got charcoaled black within 120 seconds.
Next experiment.
1 tsp of bread crumbs for 360 seconds:
Black, gray smoke and glimmering charcoal residue!
Who said that a MWO will not sterilize?
So, much for your theories and pontifications.
But thanks again for assistance in the new MWO acquisition.
hanson
PS:
My pretty woman just gave me unpretty shit, complaining
that her new MWO now stinks of smoke, which will not go away.
Repeating Decimal
hole in the ground at TutAm...@theheartofthecheopspyramid.hol wrote on
4/14/02 2:33 PM:
> This also can be refuted by simply stating that most "meats and
> biologicals" are conductive as well, being mostly water of a
> conductive nature.
>
> Conductivity is not how a microwave works, hysteresis is.
Hysteresis is a nonlinearity so that special mathematical techniques have to
be applied to Maxwell's equations. They are not so simple then. But similar
techniques have been used to describe optical frequency conversion in
nonlinear media. In linear media, extend the concept of conductivity to the
imaginary component of the permitivity (dielectric constant).
>
> Many non-conductive items heat quite well in a microwave.
The complex dielectric constants for these items are functions of frequency.
>
> Oils, transformer varnishes, epoxies. The highly exothermic type
> epoxies heat up even faster. They boil in seconds... prior to any
> mixing of the components.
Repeating Decimal
sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com wrote on 4/14/02 2:56 PM:
> Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. There's a reason you can see
> through a dielectric like glass, but you can't see through a block of metal,
Glass at visible frequencies has an almost purely real dielectric constant
with an almost zero imaginary component. Glass containing cerium, for
example has a significant imaginary component for blue and that is why it
was used to protect ultraviolet sensitive compounds from light.
> okay? Maxwell's equations are the same, but the propagation of EM waves is
> vastly different in conductors and dielectrics. The equations for the index
> of refraction for the two types of materials are not the same.
Only if you refuse to use complex numbers to unify the two. Snell's law
still applies to complex dielectric constants. You even get complex angles
of reflection and transmission.
> Moreover, the
> index in conductors (as opposed to dielectrics) is highly dependent on
> frequency WITH a non-linear transmission cutoff in conductors above which
I don't understand *non-linear transmission cutoff*. Please explain.
> the complex index is mostly real, and below which, it is mostly imaginary.
> The concept of skin-depth applies to conducters BELOW this critical
> frequency, where the very high imaginary part of the index forces much more
> rapid absorption. Above it, you get penetration like X-rays through metals.
> With non-conductors, however, you get a mostly real index no matter what you
> do, and X-ray-like penetration for radio and microwave. In such
> circumstances your stuff about the imaginary component of the index is true
> but irrelevent, because it's so small compared to the real component. For
> such systems the "skin effect" does not exist, unless you're prepared to
> regard the "skin" as being several cm or even meters in depth. But that
> would be silly. If the 1/e skin depth for a microwave oven is an inch, why
> even bring up the subject for a 1/10th inch long ant?
A-c conductivity at high frequencies in metals is a result of an electron
plasma being able to respond to the high frequency E fields. For good
metals, the dielectric constant will have a large imaginary component and
reflect well without much absorption. Collisions of electrons will introduce
a real part to the dielectric constant that will allow penetration and
absorption. When the frequency gets high enough above the plasma frequency,
the plasma will no longer be able to respond (your x-ray case). In the
ultraviolet region, metals such as sodium become transparent.
Microwave frequencies are well below the plasma frequencies found in metals.
Thus, metals and dielectrics can be treated the same by attaching the
appropriate complex dielectric constant.
Bill
Repeating Decimal
han...@quick.net wrote on 4/14/02 7:02 PM:
> I think MW is too harsh instead of too feeble for sterilisation.
>
> But first,
> Thanks to all you respondents of this thread for having given
> me a reason to make my lovely woman happy by buying her a
> brand-new MWO Panasonic, 1300 Watts.
>
> To test the MWO and all your theoretical pontifications about
> sterilization by MW, I, unlike you guys, DID it, EXPERIMENTALLY.
>
> From the pomegranate tree I brushed 22 ants (~ 2 mm long
> each) into a glass char with plastic lid and MWO'd them for 60 sec.
>
> The ants were not only dead, the were fried and roasted. Black!
>
> Next experiment.
> 1 slice of Gallo Hard Salami, cubed into 1/8 to 1/16 inch
> pieces got charcoaled black within 120 seconds.
>
> Next experiment.
> 1 tsp of bread crumbs for 360 seconds:
> Black, gray smoke and glimmering charcoal residue!
>
> Who said that a MWO will not sterilize?
>
> So, much for your theories and pontifications.
> But thanks again for assistance in the new MWO acquisition.
> hanson
>
> PS:
> My pretty woman just gave me unpretty shit, complaining
> that her new MWO now stinks of smoke, which will not go away.
Very interesting. I would like to ask some questions.
Did you use water in a container to prevent killing the magnetron?
I presume from your description that your test objects were not immersed in
a liquid. Is that true?
Were the containers warm? That could be an indication that it was the heat
from the containers that heated the objects.
Let me also suggest, for example usng isolated poppy seeds or ground pepper
so that the individual particle do not clump and act as a larger one
thermally.
Bill
hanson
> in article Vwqu8.9090$L1.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net, hanson
at
> han...@quick.net wrote on 4/14/02 7:02 PM:
>
> Did you use water in a container to prevent killing the magnetron?
No, never used any water. Except to make water or H2O containing
stuff and -foods hot. But never H2O as ballast.
Not even in the old 700 Watt MVO which I used for 25 years.
Used it 1000's times for popping pop-corn.
Perhaps that magnetron killing scare was issued by some
consumer doomsday group or by enviro turds.
MVO's would never have penetrated the market for so long if
there would have been such user restrictions on it.
> I presume from your description that your test objects were not immersed
in
> a liquid. Is that true?
Yes. No water, no liquid added.
> Were the containers warm? That could be an indication that it
> was the heat from the containers that heated the objects.
No. Containers do not get warm (> 120 F) in the first few minutes.
But under 700 Watts -- glass gets hot (> 160F, hotter then touchable)
after
4 minutes, porcelain after 4-5 min and pottery after 5 minutes.
"metallic" fused rim decor on porcelain brilliantly flares and burns after
15 seconds.
> Let me also suggest, for example usng isolated poppy
> seeds or ground pepper so that the individual particle do not
> clump and act as a larger one thermally.
> Bill
No, Bill, do it in your own MWO. I have to pacify my pretty woman now
for my mis-experimentations with *her* new 1300 MWO.
hahahahahanson
BTW, few years back the professional bug killers offered environmental
termite eradication by use of MV's. It fell in disrepute. I don't know what
the real reason for it's unsucsessful existence was. Most probably OSHA.
Steve Harris
> > okay? Maxwell's equations are the same, but the propagation of EM waves
is
> > vastly different in conductors and dielectrics. The equations for the
index
> > of refraction for the two types of materials are not the same.
>
> Only if you refuse to use complex numbers to unify the two.
No, they are not the same whether you use complex numbers or not. Metals
have an electron gas like a plasma, dielectrics do not.
> > Moreover, the
> > index in conductors (as opposed to dielectrics) is highly dependent on
> > frequency WITH a non-linear transmission cutoff in conductors above
which
>
> I don't understand *non-linear transmission cutoff*. Please explain.
You see that equation for index of refraction in a plasma (or a metal)?
That's a nonlinear equation in omega (or if you like, nu).
> A-c conductivity at high frequencies in metals is a result of an electron
> plasma being able to respond to the high frequency E fields. For good
> metals, the dielectric constant will have a large imaginary component and
> reflect well without much absorption. Collisions of electrons will
introduce
> a real part to the dielectric constant that will allow penetration and
> absorption. When the frequency gets high enough above the plasma
frequency,
> the plasma will no longer be able to respond (your x-ray case). In the
> ultraviolet region, metals such as sodium become transparent.
Yes, so? Above that, it's not transparent.
>
> Microwave frequencies are well below the plasma frequencies found in
metals.
Correct-- non transparency ensues. But not for the same reasons as in water.
> Thus, metals and dielectrics can be treated the same by attaching the
> appropriate complex dielectric constant.
Nope.
me...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
>"Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>
>> Thus, metals and dielectrics can be treated the same by attaching the
>> appropriate complex dielectric constant.
>
>
Oh, they certainly can. In fact, all the materials in the world in
all the requency range from zero to infinity can be treated this way.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
me...@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Gregory L. Hansen
hanson <han...@quick.net> wrote:
>PS:
>My pretty woman just gave me unpretty shit, complaining
>that her new MWO now stinks of smoke, which will not go away.
It's best to spend $15 on a used oven at Goodwill or someplace for these
sorts of experiments.
--
"For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong. "
-- Henry Louis Mencken
jmfb...@aol.com
glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
>In article <Vwqu8.9090$L1.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>hanson <han...@quick.net> wrote:
>
>>PS:
>>My pretty woman just gave me unpretty shit, complaining
>>that her new MWO now stinks of smoke, which will not go away.
>
>It's best to spend $15 on a used oven at Goodwill or someplace for these
>sorts of experiments.
>
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
Richard Saam
Steve Harris wrote:
> "Richard Saam" <rds...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:3CB8627C...@att.net...
>
>
> > Doesn't this whole idea of microwave heating come down to size of heated
> object
> > relative to microwave wavelength on the order of centimeters?
>
> No. Wavelength has nothing to do with any of this, except that the
> absorption of materials from dielectric heating (which is what this is,
> essentially), does depend on frequency. Lower freqencies penetrate farther.
> AFAIK, the fact that in water the characteristic half-distance (50%
> absorption distance) is on the same order as the wavelength (here about an
> inch) is pure coincidence. It would be something else for some other
> absorbtive fluid (alcohol).
>
> Ants and water
> > films are less than a cm so they do not interact with microwave energy. A
> > cockroach may have problems.
>
> No, they interact just as well. But they are cooled by air.
>
Conceptually, I am having difficulty with this idea of wavelength vs heated
object. Now take the microwave enclosure. The door is designed to close
tolerances but they are not zero. I would say that an ant may be able to get
through the spacing between the door and its frame. No microwave radiation
exits the door and frame spacing. Now say the ant is crawling through the door
and frame spacing. At this point he would not see any microwave energy. Now
he crawls out into the microwave oven space. What is different now that the
ant is in the oven space rather than in the door and frame spacing in regards
to the ant encountering microwave energy.
As an aside, an ant is probably as well thermally insulated as any material
body with its external chitin coat which just like Saran Rap probably transmits
microwave energy to food/biologics contained therein.
Richard Saam
Steve Harris
<me...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:9fwu8.47$s4....@news.uchicago.edu...
> In article <a9duoe$rbc$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, "Steve Harris"
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> writes:
> >
> >"Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >news:B8DFA687.8970%Salm...@attbi.com...
> >
> >> Thus, metals and dielectrics can be treated the same by attaching the
> >> appropriate complex dielectric constant.
> >
> >Nope.
> >
> Oh, they certainly can. In fact, all the materials in the world in
> all the requency range from zero to infinity can be treated this way.
Only to the extent that you're using a complex index. But that's not what I
meant. Conductors have an index which has a very different fequency
dependence-- not just in magnitude but in form-- due to the giant density of
free electrons. There is no plasma cuttoff w for a lump of quartz. Really
good conductors (metals) at below this characteristic fequency have very
strong absorption and very thin skin effects that are simply not seen
anywhere else. Not in any dielectric for any reason. Dielectrics simply
cannot muster up that much opacity.
Repeating Decimal
me...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote on 4/15/02 1:33 AM:
You are right of course, but I do not want to continue arguing with Haarris.
Bill
Repeating Decimal
SBHar...@ix.netcom.com wrote on 4/15/02 10:48 AM:
> Only to the extent that you're using a complex index. But that's not what I
> meant. Conductors have an index which has a very different fequency
> dependence-- not just in magnitude but in form-- due to the giant density of
> free electrons. There is no plasma cuttoff w for a lump of quartz. Really
> good conductors (metals) at below this characteristic fequency have very
> strong absorption and very thin skin effects that are simply not seen
> anywhere else. Not in any dielectric for any reason. Dielectrics simply
> cannot muster up that much opacity.
Explain how Schott glass filters work.
Bill
Steve Harris
> in article a9f4r7$f26
> > Only to the extent that you're using a complex index. But that's not
what I
> > meant. Conductors have an index which has a very different fequency
> > dependence-- not just in magnitude but in form-- due to the giant
density of
> > free electrons. There is no plasma cuttoff w for a lump of quartz.
Really
> > good conductors (metals) at below this characteristic fequency have very
> > strong absorption and very thin skin effects that are simply not seen
> > anywhere else. Not in any dielectric for any reason. Dielectrics simply
> > cannot muster up that much opacity.
>
> Explain how Schott glass filters work.
Duh-- they work like any other colored filters in photography-- using a dye
which has a quantum transition which gives an absorption hump at a
particular frequency range.
Is this supposed to be trick question? Find me a dye which blocks even its
best absorbed frequency 1% as well as equivalent weight of aluminum blocks
ALL frequencies below the plasma cutoff.
Steve Harris
> Conceptually, I am having difficulty with this idea of wavelength vs
heated
> object. Now take the microwave enclosure. The door is designed to close
> tolerances but they are not zero. I would say that an ant may be able to
get
> through the spacing between the door and its frame. No microwave
radiation
> exits the door and frame spacing. Now say the ant is crawling through the
door
> and frame spacing. At this point he would not see any microwave energy.
Now
> he crawls out into the microwave oven space. What is different now that
the
> ant is in the oven space rather than in the door and frame spacing in
regards
> to the ant encountering microwave energy.
When he's in the little space he's essentially in a Faraday cage shielded by
conductors closer together than 1/2 wavelength. When he leaves it, he's not.
> As an aside, an ant is probably as well thermally insulated as any
material
> body with its external chitin coat which just like Saran Rap probably
transmits
> microwave energy to food/biologics contained therein.
It's not thermal insulation relative to size that counts here, but thermal
insulation absolute. The R value of an ant's chitin is pretty small because
it's very thin-- you see the point?
me...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
><me...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>news:9fwu8.47$s4....@news.uchicago.edu...
><sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> writes:
>> >
>> >"Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> >news:B8DFA687.8970%Salm...@attbi.com...
>> >
>> >> Thus, metals and dielectrics can be treated the same by attaching the
>> >> appropriate complex dielectric constant.
>> >
>> >Nope.
>> >
>> Oh, they certainly can. In fact, all the materials in the world in
>> all the requency range from zero to infinity can be treated this way.
>
>
Sure.
> But that's not what I
>meant. Conductors have an index which has a very different fequency
>dependence-- not just in magnitude but in form-- due to the giant density of
>free electrons. There is no plasma cuttoff w for a lump of quartz. Really
>good conductors (metals) at below this characteristic fequency have very
>strong absorption and very thin skin effects that are simply not seen
>anywhere else. Not in any dielectric for any reason. Dielectrics simply
>cannot muster up that much opacity.
>
And none of this contradicts the statement that "metals and dielectrics
can be treated the same by attaching the appropriate complex dielectric
constant." Only, I would use "dielectric function" since "dielectric
constant" is a misnomer.
Steve Harris
experiment today.
Subjects: 20 vicious volunteer red ants from my local ant pile, placed in
opentop Tupperware, no other substance inside. Totally dry (they can't climb
these walls).
Sharp Carousel tabletop microwave oven on HIGH.
Ballast 5 oz water in glass, room temp (ant temp) to start.
Time to boil water by the side of the ants: 75 sec (est 600 watts).
Effect on ants: 10/20 immobilized, and appear badly injured. 1/20 running
with abdomen tucked up-- probably badly injured. 9/20 still running
normally, probably no injury.
Conclusion: Even a 600 watt microwave oven will kill ants if you leave them
in long enough. However, the ability of 50% of ants to run through a field
which has boiled a cup of water next to them (a temperature which would
surely kill all of them if they had reached it), shows that the air cooling
effect, or some other effect, drastically reduces the temperature of the
ants in these conditions, relative to aliquots of pure water with many times
their volume.
Steve Harris
Time to totally and undeniably kill remaining ants with NO ballast: 15
seconds. Obviously the microwave intensities are much greater when the
experiment is done this way!
I think we can here account for nearly all of the conflicting arguments and
observations in this matter.
SBH
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message
news:a9ffej$5pk$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Uncle Al
>
> Not to be outdone in Aristotelian hair-splitting, I tried my own ant
> experiment today.
>
> Subjects: 20 vicious volunteer red ants from my local ant pile, placed in
> opentop Tupperware, no other substance inside. Totally dry (they can't climb
> these walls).
>
> Sharp Carousel tabletop microwave oven on HIGH.
>
> Ballast 5 oz water in glass, room temp (ant temp) to start.
>
> Time to boil water by the side of the ants: 75 sec (est 600 watts).
>
> Effect on ants: 10/20 immobilized, and appear badly injured. 1/20 running
> with abdomen tucked up-- probably badly injured. 9/20 still running
> normally, probably no injury.
>
> Conclusion: Even a 600 watt microwave oven will kill ants if you leave them
> in long enough. However, the ability of 50% of ants to run through a field
> which has boiled a cup of water next to them (a temperature which would
> surely kill all of them if they had reached it), shows that the air cooling
> effect, or some other effect, drastically reduces the temperature of the
> ants in these conditions, relative to aliquots of pure water with many times
> their volume.
Microwave ovens are useless as dry sterilizers. Note that bacteria
and especially spores are resistant to mere thermal sterilization
under any circumstances. They laugh at "microwave sterilization."
Science still works!
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Steve Harris
news:ELGu8.94$s4....@news.uchicago.edu...
> And none of this contradicts the statement that "metals and dielectrics
> can be treated the same by attaching the appropriate complex dielectric
> constant." Only, I would use "dielectric function" since "dielectric
> constant" is a misnomer.
Okay, Mati. If you want to insist that attaching a different complex
dielectric function to each, is "treating them the same".
I could as well say that it treats them "just the same" to simply have a
"mathematic function" for each. Nevermind that they are different mathematic
functions.
me...@cars3.uchicago.edu
><me...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>
>> And none of this contradicts the statement that "metals and dielectrics
>> can be treated the same by attaching the appropriate complex dielectric
>> constant." Only, I would use "dielectric function" since "dielectric
>> constant" is a misnomer.
>
>
>dielectric function to each, is "treating them the same".
>
wave function of the electrons in a given solid. Of course, solving
for this is a lot to ask for, so we settle on some approximation, a
function of the density and spectrum of energy of the electrons in the
matter we're dealing with. So it can be same function for all
materials (note that same function may behave quite differently in
various regions. And usually, to simplify matters further, we use
different approximations for different regions, but that's a matter of
convenience.
>I could as well say that it treats them "just the same" to simply have a
>"mathematic function" for each. Nevermind that they are different mathematic
>functions.
There is an advantage to having same formalism dealing with
everything.
Repeating Decimal
sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com wrote on 4/15/02 2:06 PM:
> Not to be outdone in Aristotelian hair-splitting, I tried my own ant
> experiment today.
>
> Subjects: 20 vicious volunteer red ants from my local ant pile, placed in
> opentop Tupperware, no other substance inside. Totally dry (they can't climb
> these walls).
>
> Sharp Carousel tabletop microwave oven on HIGH.
>
> Ballast 5 oz water in glass, room temp (ant temp) to start.
>
> Time to boil water by the side of the ants: 75 sec (est 600 watts).
>
> Effect on ants: 10/20 immobilized, and appear badly injured. 1/20 running
> with abdomen tucked up-- probably badly injured. 9/20 still running
> normally, probably no injury.
What temperature does the tupperware reach in the same setup without ants?
Bill
Repeating Decimal
sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com wrote on 4/15/02 1:09 PM:
> "Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:B8E0691D.89F9%Salm...@attbi.com...
>> in article a9f4r7$f26
>>> Only to the extent that you're using a complex index. But that's not
> what I
>>> meant. Conductors have an index which has a very different fequency
>>> dependence-- not just in magnitude but in form-- due to the giant
> density of
>>> free electrons. There is no plasma cuttoff w for a lump of quartz.
> Really
>>> good conductors (metals) at below this characteristic fequency have very
>>> strong absorption and very thin skin effects that are simply not seen
>>> anywhere else. Not in any dielectric for any reason. Dielectrics simply
>>> cannot muster up that much opacity.
>>
>> Explain how Schott glass filters work.
>
>
> Duh-- they work like any other colored filters in photography-- using a dye
> which has a quantum transition which gives an absorption hump at a
> particular frequency range.
>
> Is this supposed to be trick question? Find me a dye which blocks even its
> best absorbed frequency 1% as well as equivalent weight of aluminum blocks
> ALL frequencies below the plasma cutoff.
Let me ask the question another way. Is there any wavelength at which a
Schott filter, made from glass, say BG24 to be specific, has an imaginary
component added to the real dielectric constant?
Bill
Repeating Decimal
fundamental, consider the Kramers-Kronig relationship. In principle, it
allows the imaginary component of the dielectric function of frequency to be
determined entirely by the real component of the dielectriv function of
frequency. It shows that the complex dielectric constant is a fundamental
entity. The real and imaginary functions are related by the Hilbert
transform.
Similar consideration are used in electrical engineering. Various Bode
relationships connect real and imaginary or phase and amplitude. You cannot
have one without the other.
Cetain restrictions apply.
Bill
Steve Harris
> Let me ask the question another way. Is there any wavelength at which a
> Schott filter, made from glass, say BG24 to be specific, has an imaginary
> component added to the real dielectric constant?
>
> Bill
Look, the imaginary component is what models all exponential absorption by
materials, so unless you have material which is perfectly transparent, it
will have an imaginary component to any dielectric function, and any index
of refraction function, which is expressed as an exponential.
You might even find a Schott dyed filter which at some absorbed color has an
exponential imaginary part which actually predominates the real part! But
it still won't predominate like you see in any garden variety metallic
conductor at low frequencies. Ergo, no skin effect per se.
Take a red filter. How far does green light penetrate into it? Answer: a
hell of a lot farther than microwaves penetrate into aluminum pans.
Gordon D. Pusch
> "Richard Saam" <rds...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:3CBAF34E...@att.net...
>
>> Conceptually, I am having difficulty with this idea of wavelength vs
>> heated object. Now take the microwave enclosure. The door is designed
>> to close tolerances but they are not zero. I would say that an ant may
>> be able to get through the spacing between the door and its frame. No
>> microwave radiation exits the door and frame spacing. Now say the ant
>> is crawling through the door and frame spacing. At this point he would
>> not see any microwave energy. Now he crawls out into the microwave oven
>> space. What is different now that the ant is in the oven space rather
>> than in the door and frame spacing in regards to the ant encountering
>> microwave energy.
>
>
> When he's in the little space he's essentially in a Faraday cage shielded by
> conductors closer together than 1/2 wavelength. When he leaves it, he's not.
...She is, however, standing on the surface of a conductor, which means
that she (all worker ants are ``shes'') is walking on a nodal surface
of the cavity RF field, and hence the electric field strength is close
to zero. Unless she crawls up onto the cooking tray, she will not feel
a significant RF field unless she is more than about 1/2 wavelength tall ---
which (except in some parts of the world) is a pretty big ant !!!
-- Gordon D. Pusch
perl -e '$_ = "gdpusch\@NO.xnet.SPAM.com\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'
Steve Harris
news:gik7r8w...@pusch.xnet.com...
> > When he's in the little space he's essentially in a Faraday cage
shielded by
> > conductors closer together than 1/2 wavelength. When he leaves it, he's
not.
>
> ...She is, however, standing on the surface of a conductor, which means
> that she (all worker ants are ``shes'') is walking on a nodal surface
> of the cavity RF field, and hence the electric field strength is close
> to zero. Unless she crawls up onto the cooking tray, she will not feel
> a significant RF field unless she is more than about 1/2 wavelength
tall ---
> which (except in some parts of the world) is a pretty big ant !!!
>
>
> -- Gordon D. Pusch
Hmmm. You do realize that you've just condemned 20 more of my backyard ants
to an electromagnetic end....
Gordon D. Pusch
> Hmmm. You do realize that you've just condemned 20 more of my backyard
> ants to an electromagnetic end....
What you choose to do or not do is _YOUR_ responsibility, not mine.
Richard Saam
"Gordon D. Pusch" wrote:
Ah, the concept of a walking on a nodal surface. That seems to fit the bill.
That means the E x H = 0 on this surface, right?
and E x H has units of energy/volume.
Now the follow up question
Is there a reasonable chance that there are 1D, 2D, 3D standing waves in the
micro wave oven space?
If so, then there would be a labyrinth of nodal surfaces that the ant (assume a
flying ant) could walk/fly and evade the microwave energy.
Richard Saam
Anthony Cerrato
Not that much. I believe this sort of experiment is explained by the nature
of the specific materials (and how much) in the microwave vs how much they
absorb microwave energy. The fact that the glass of water is there means
that the energy is preferentially absorbed by the water (water having the
right range of bond length and thus bond vibrational/rotational frequencys
for absorption), vs the energy absorbed by the ants--which probably don't
have that much water anyway per mass (lotsa chitin, and for liquid, don't
they have a lotta formic acid in 'em also? Whatever... plain water is the
best absorber.)
Bruce Bowen
> Addendum:
>
> Time to totally and undeniably kill remaining ants with NO ballast: 15
> seconds. Obviously the microwave intensities are much greater when the
> experiment is done this way!
>
> I think we can here account for nearly all of the conflicting arguments and
> observations in this matter.
>
> SBH
What were the dimensions of these ants? Were they the size of small
"sugar ants", or larger carpenter ants, or even Uncle Al's favorite,
Jerusalem Crickets (ie. potato bugs, not really an ant, but proabably
pretty spectacular in a microvave)? I imagine sugar ants, assuming
they weren't clustered, could probably tolerate a higher intensity.
Uncle Al
Grasshoppers cook in a microwave. When they get cold indoors they
cease to be interesting to a cat. Giving them two seconds in a
microwave makes them less interesting, but they do turn red like
cooked lobsters. A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god of
mine.
Steve Harris
news:3CBC5875...@hate.spam.net...
> Bruce Bowen wrote:
> > What were the dimensions of these ants? Were they the size of small
> > "sugar ants", or larger carpenter ants, or even Uncle Al's favorite,
> > Jerusalem Crickets (ie. potato bugs, not really an ant, but proabably
> > pretty spectacular in a microvave)? I imagine sugar ants, assuming
> > they weren't clustered, could probably tolerate a higher intensity.
Red ants-- a bit bigger than small black ants. There were in a tupperware
container which rotates on a glass table maybe 1 cm off the (recessed) metal
floor of the oven, so they may have been close enough to metal to get some
of the antinode-of-standing-wave protection effect. Will have to re-try with
both higher ants and ants given the chance to walk on the oven wall. Maybe
not today, since it snowed here last night, so the ants will be hiding
underground.
> A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
> contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
>
> Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god of
> mine.
Jeruselem crickets aka mole crickets are one of the more horrid outerspace
things you see in the ground. They are cricketoid only in the same way the
Alien in the movie Alien is humanoid. I've seen one that must have been 2
inches long poking though mud in the rocks beside the Snake River in Idaho.
I was sure the planet had been invaded by Martians. The Xanti giant ant
critters invented by the old Outer Limits to scare the crap out of people
weren't nearly as bad.
Steve Harris
> Now the follow up question
>
> Is there a reasonable chance that there are 1D, 2D, 3D standing waves in
the
> micro wave oven space?
> If so, then there would be a labyrinth of nodal surfaces that the ant
(assume a
> flying ant) could walk/fly and evade the microwave energy.
>
> Richard Saam
Complicated question. Ovens have a mixer fan which often screws up the nice
standing wave pattern in the cavity. But really all this does is mix the
nodes-- any solution of the equation has to have antinodes at the metal
surface, so it's always safe if you can hunker down.
In some ovens the mixing isnt' that good, and in carousel ovens they might
not have been so careful about this, since the food platform rotates. You
can see nodes in a microwave oven allegedly by putting thin layer of cheese
squares at the bottom and looking for melted regions. People have also used
a thin wetted sponge topped with 50 or so small neon discharge bulbs, which
individually glow nicely in the high microwave fields of a cavity. I have
not tried ether technique myself.
hanson
> In article <a9em8h$sad$1...@wilson.uits.indiana.edu>,
> glha...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) wrote:
> >In article <Vwqu8.9090$L1.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> >hanson <han...@quick.net> wrote:
> >>My pretty woman just gave me unpretty shit, complaining
> >>that her new MWO now stinks of smoke, which will not go away.
[Greg]
> >It's best to spend $15 on a used oven at Goodwill or
> >someplace for these sorts of experiments.
Thank you, buddy. Thrifty, thrifty. I like that. But a new unit is less
than $ 150 on sale. So, if pretty woman bitches, I'll have her get
a new one, and I'll use the smoked one in one of the labs.
hanson
[/BAH]
> Yup. He could try washing it with vinegar, inside and out.
Thank you, sweet pea. I'll give it a try. I'll pass your advice on
to my pretty woman. There is a certain womanly wisdom and
gender connivance implied in your "He" doing the washing .
But, I think that's cute.
hanson
Uncle Al
>
> "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> news:3CBC5875...@hate.spam.net...
> > Bruce Bowen wrote:
> > A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
> > contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
> >
> > Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god of
> > mine.
>
> Jeruselem crickets aka mole crickets are one of the more horrid outerspace
> things you see in the ground. They are cricketoid only in the same way the
> Alien in the movie Alien is humanoid. I've seen one that must have been 2
> inches long poking though mud in the rocks beside the Snake River in Idaho.
> I was sure the planet had been invaded by Martians. The Xanti giant ant
> critters invented by the old Outer Limits to scare the crap out of people
> weren't nearly as bad.
I saw my first Jerusalem cricket in Pomona, CA. The hair stood
straight up from my scalp - quite the experience - and my brain
screamed in my skull, a long walling awful screech of desperate
plight. All I could imagine was a hole in the ground and thousands of
the things boiling up like Hell come to Earth. After seeing my sister
before the thing hanging under her brainpan was surgically
reconfigured and without makeup, I didn't imagine the universe could
be uglier. She can still look at a sundial and stop it cold.
I think the Roman Catholic Church is missing an excellent
instructional aid. "Anybody who pries their lips from Christ's ass
goes to Hell in a room full of THESE!!!!" Kids don't forget things
like that. The Pope will be converting Mormons, Scientologists, and
Southern Baptists by the millions. Like THESE!!! Whammo. Instant
faith. Screw the fire and brimstone, mouths vomiting ordure forever,
boilng lakes of blood... like THESE!!! Subliminally flash a Jerusalem
cricket during a video came, get the adrenaline flowing.
The Xanti misfits were small stuff in comparison, sorta like Mexicans
in San Deigo. It must really be something watchingg them screw. The
crickets, that is.
I wonder if the same sort of tactic would work in physics class by
suddenly introducing Weitzenboeck connections?
Don Kelly
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:3CBC8FEA...@hate.spam.net...
> Steve Harris wrote:
> >
> > "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> > news:3CBC5875...@hate.spam.net...
> > > Bruce Bowen wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > > A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
> > > contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
> > >
> > > Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god of
> > > mine.
> >
> > Jeruselem crickets aka mole crickets are one of the more horrid
outerspace
> > things you see in the ground. They are cricketoid only in the same way
the
> > Alien in the movie Alien is humanoid. I've seen one that must have been
2
> > inches long poking though mud in the rocks beside the Snake River in
Idaho.
> > I was sure the planet had been invaded by Martians. The Xanti giant ant
> > critters invented by the old Outer Limits to scare the crap out of
people
> > weren't nearly as bad.
-------------
Go to New Zealand- they have an insect called a Weta. The giant weta reaches
about 90 cm (3.6 inches) but look bigger. and weighs in about 70 grams-3
times as much as a mouse- too heavy to jump. It takes over the ecological
niche occupied by mice in the rest fo the world. It is also an ugly
customer. Picture at http://weta.boarsnest.net
Weta is strictly a New Zealand name that derives from the Maori name of
wetapunga that was given to the giant weta. Wetapunga translates roughly to
"God of ugly things"
--
Don Kelly
dh...@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
Dirk Bruere
"Don Kelly" <dh...@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:vX0v8.49248$de1.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> -------------
> Go to New Zealand- they have an insect called a Weta. The giant weta
reaches
> about 90 cm (3.6 inches) but look bigger. and weighs in about 70 grams-3
> times as much as a mouse- too heavy to jump. It takes over the ecological
> niche occupied by mice in the rest fo the world. It is also an ugly
> customer. Picture at http://weta.boarsnest.net
>
> Weta is strictly a New Zealand name that derives from the Maori name of
> wetapunga that was given to the giant weta. Wetapunga translates roughly
to
> "God of ugly things"
Are they tasty?
Dirk
Uncle Al
http://www.anigami.com/jimwich/jimwich_archives/jwpicts_1_2001/Windy_Hill_Cricket.html
http://www.sasionline.org/arthzoo/orthopt/jcrick.htm
http://www.uidaho.edu/so-id/entomology/jc.jpg
RUN AWAY!!!!
There's gotta be a select bunch of Enviro-whackos that worship the
thing. Whoa! Per spec,
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/04/05/new.bug.ap/
Bob Kolker
Uncle Al wrote:
>
>
> I saw my first Jerusalem cricket in Pomona, CA. The hair stood
> straight up from my scalp - quite the experience - and my brain
> screamed in my skull, a long walling awful screech of desperate
> plight.
In one movie - Predator - the monster from another planet met a
stenopelmatus fuscus and said - You are one Ugly Motherfucker. And
that is how the Earth was saved from alien invasion. These beasties can
be up to two inches long. I can see a movie based on the premis that
radioactive fallout has caused them to mutate and become ten foot
fuscii. Ugh. There is a premise for you.
Bob Kolker
Steve Harris
> Don Kelly wrote:
> >
> > "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> > news:3CBC8FEA...@hate.spam.net...
> > > Steve Harris wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3CBC5875...@hate.spam.net...
> > > > > Bruce Bowen wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > > A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
> > > > > contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god
of
> > > > > mine.
> > > >
Though looking at the photo it don't look that much different from your
normal cricket, just (from the description) bigger.
Jerusalem crickets are far uglier. (BTW, apparently mole crickets aren't
quite the same thing, but they too are ugly. I believe the big one I saw in
the wild was a Jerusalem.)
--
Steve Harris
You can email me at sbhar...@ix.netcom.com
But remove the numerals in the address first.
==============================
Our nada who art in Nada
Nada be thy nada..
-- Dada Hemingway
==========================
Maleki
"Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in message news:a9fg14$kth$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Mike Varney
Horrid. Saw my first one in Oceanside Ca and at first thought some kid had
dropped a orange striped candy Cain and it grew legs. Freaked me out to the
point that I could not even step on it.
Maleki
seeing insects. Any insect. Very late in life or earlier
than 17 0r18 the fear could be there, but it goes away
as one fully matures.
So your suggestion of room full of "these" will not work in
general.
Other fears and conditions also overcome by full maturity are:
* inability to initiate an idea
* inability to recover from troubled past
* inability to recover from victimized past
* inability to conduct a discussion in a fruitful manner
* inability to live comfortably as individuals and as
citizens (as opposed to "clan" relationships like Zionism, etc)
* racism
* tunnelled world-view
* insecurity (fear of what parents, clans, media, and the
government identifies as unusual or bad)
* hatred for foreigners
* hatred for clerics
* hatred for science
* hatred for religion
* hatred for math
* hatred for men
* hatred for women
* hatred for children
* hatred for certain animals or insects
* occurrence of positive feedback (i.e. reinforcement) on
fear when acting on fears.
Brood on it Al :-)
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:3CBC8FEA...@hate.spam.net...
PF Riley
wrote:
>TV once announced that the only way women could
>stop yeast infection in them is to microwave their
>underwear.
"TV said that?!"
-- Homer J. Simpson
Dirk Bruere
"Mike Varney" <var...@collorado.edu> wrote in message
news:Bp7v8.838$x_3.3...@news.uswest.net...
They are a bit ugly but not particularly scary if you know what they are.
I'd avoid them because I still don't know if they bite or are poisonous.
Now, salt water crocs are different...
Dirk
Mike Varney
"Maleki" <male...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9j2df$3o33a$1...@ID-20678.news.dfncis.de...
> A fully matured human does not experience fear on
> seeing insects. Any insect.
Bullshit.
> Very late in life or earlier
> than 17 0r18 the fear could be there, but it goes away
> as one fully matures.
Nonsense.
> So your suggestion of room full of "these" will not work in
> general.
Idiocy.
> Other fears and conditions also overcome by full maturity are:
>
> * inability to initiate an idea
I guess this means you are, by your criteria, afraid of insects.
> * inability to recover from troubled past
You brought it up, not I.
> * inability to recover from victimized past
> * inability to conduct a discussion in a fruitful manner
Still scared of bugs, eh?
> * inability to live comfortably as individuals and as
> citizens (as opposed to "clan" relationships like Zionism, etc)
I thus end the thread with.......
> * racism
You mean like above?
> * tunnelled world-view
You mean like 2 above?
> * insecurity (fear of what parents, clans, media, and the
> government identifies as unusual or bad)
> * hatred for foreigners
> * hatred for clerics
> * hatred for science
> * hatred for religion
> * hatred for math
> * hatred for men
> * hatred for women
> * hatred for children
> * hatred for certain animals or insects
> * occurrence of positive feedback (i.e. reinforcement) on
> fear when acting on fears.
Shit! Your self examination sure uncovered a lot. When will you grow up
then?
Bruce Bowen
east foothills of Santa Clara (Silicon) Valley. The cat was playing
with something in the garage that was holding its own. Every time the
cat would bat it it would hiss furiously!! I looked over at it and
said, "What the HELL IS THAT!" I disposed of it with tongs. When we
first moved in we also had mosquito hawks the size of birds. The
"End-A-Pest" man now comes quarterly and lays down a defensive
barrier.
-Bruce
Uncle Al <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<3CBC8FEA...@hate.spam.net>...
> Steve Harris wrote:
> >
> > "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> > news:3CBC5875...@hate.spam.net...
> > > Bruce Bowen wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > > A Jerusalem cricket is too aesthetically awful to
> > > contemplate. I bet they explode when zinged.
> > >
> > > Any god that made Jerusalem crickets and retinoblastoma is no god of
> > > mine.
> >
> > Jeruselem crickets aka mole crickets are one of the more horrid outerspace
> > things you see in the ground. They are cricketoid only in the same way the
> > Alien in the movie Alien is humanoid. I've seen one that must have been 2
> > inches long poking though mud in the rocks beside the Snake River in Idaho.
> > I was sure the planet had been invaded by Martians. The Xanti giant ant
> > critters invented by the old Outer Limits to scare the crap out of people
> > weren't nearly as bad.
>
> I saw my first Jerusalem cricket in Pomona, CA. The hair stood
> straight up from my scalp - quite the experience - and my brain
> screamed in my skull, a long walling awful screech of desperate
> plight. All I could imagine was a hole in the ground and thousands of
> the things boiling up like Hell come to Earth. After seeing my sister
> before the thing hanging under her brainpan was surgically
> reconfigured and without makeup, I didn't imagine the universe could
> be uglier. She can still look at a sundial and stop it cold.
>
Beverly Erlebacher
Happy Dog <happ...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>"Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com>
>
>> If heat is generated uniformly throughout a sphere,
>
>Which, in a microwave oven, it isn't.
>
Hear, hear. About 15 years ago I did some work adapting some
scientific visualization software for a metals company R&D lab. One
project they were working on was developing paper containers with
aluminum foil inserts to facilitate even heating in vending machine
food in a microwave oven. Many hours of number crunching resulted in
huge wads of numbers that the software visualized as energy
distribution inside the microwaved item. The best I can describe it in
mere words is extremely intricate three dimensional lace.
Never trust a microwave to cook food evenly enough to kill food
poisoning bacteria. The bacteria that survive in the pockets of food
that don't get heated sufficiently will have lots of nice warm growth-
stimulating food to spread into and flourish upon after the oven stops.
Eat it right away or chill it.
Steve Harris
news:2002Apr17.1...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu...
> In article <gwbu8.69$5J3....@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> Happy Dog <happ...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >"Repeating Decimal" <Salm...@attbi.com>
> >
> >> If heat is generated uniformly throughout a sphere,
> >
> >Which, in a microwave oven, it isn't.
> >
>
> Hear, hear. About 15 years ago I did some work adapting some
> scientific visualization software for a metals company R&D lab. One
> project they were working on was developing paper containers with
> aluminum foil inserts to facilitate even heating in vending machine
> food in a microwave oven. Many hours of number crunching resulted in
> huge wads of numbers that the software visualized as energy
> distribution inside the microwaved item. The best I can describe it in
> mere words is extremely intricate three dimensional lace.
>
To be fair you were probably looking at a model of microwave thawing, where
things are very tricky because of the different absorptivities of ice and
liquid water-- leading to multiple pockets where a little thawing has
occured, which then themselves heat up differentially and become nodes.
If you have no ice, for uniformly made samples (samples with uniform water
content), microwaves are basically absorbed from the outside in, with 1/e
fall-offs on the order of a couple of cm. For objects with radii less than a
cm, this translates to pretty uniform heat generation by volume, for those
volumes which have uniform water content.
SBH
--
I welcome Email from strangers with the minimal cleverness to fix my address
(it's an open-book test). I strongly recommend recipients of unsolicited
bulk Email ad spam use "http://combat.uxn.com" to get the true corporate
name of the last ISP address on the viewsource header, then forward message
& headers to "abuse@[offendingISP]."
Edward Green
According to the reference Weta are tasty to rats, who are killing off
this "national treasure".
At least one page advises a person finding a Jerusalem cricket to
"release it in area where it is unlikely to be harmed". Even the ugly
have friends.
In only two web pages I find three different translations of the same
Navajo phrase for jerusalem cricket. Navajo must not be easy to
translate.
I recall the plot of the Xanti misfits: in the end the alien ant race
contacts us and explains that theirs is peaceful culture, and that
these were criminals. They were sent to Earth because they had no
capital punishement on their world, but they knew we would be able to
carry out the job.
Comments:
Sending prisoners to a planet infested with lethal creatures is not
morally equivalent to killing them?
And the sentient bipeds their prisoners were sure to kill before they
enraged us enough to kill them weren't in effect killed by the
negligence of the distant "peaceful" Xanti?
The Xanti don't seem to have been a truly moral race; more moral
equivocators.
Peter Hanely
> in article 3CB7790D...@hate.spam.net, Uncle Al at
> Uncl...@hate.spam.net wrote on 4/12/02 5:17 PM:
>
>
>>Won't work, or the medical industry would save a fortune using it for
>>sterilizing dielectrics. Dehydrated tissue just sits there. Try
>>putting some ants in there (with a cup of water as ballast) and blast
>>away. See if beef jerky gets hot.
>
>
> I have had fruit flies fly out happily from microwave ovens. Even a house
> fly takes a long time.
>
> Bill
>
Simple, the fly is too small to be an effective 'antenna' for the
microwaves. With the jerky, it just doesn't conduct electricity well.
Steve Harris
news:2a0cceff.0204...@posting.google.com...
> I recall the plot of the Xanti misfits: in the end the alien ant race
> contacts us and explains that theirs is peaceful culture, and that
> these were criminals. They were sent to Earth because they had no
> capital punishement on their world, but they knew we would be able to
> carry out the job.
>
> Comments:
>
> Sending prisoners to a planet infested with lethal creatures is not
> morally equivalent to killing them?
>
> And the sentient bipeds their prisoners were sure to kill before they
> enraged us enough to kill them weren't in effect killed by the
> negligence of the distant "peaceful" Xanti?
>
> The Xanti don't seem to have been a truly moral race; more moral
> equivocators.
Yes, and butt-ugly, too.
There's a pic of a Zanti (got spelling wrong) at
www.sciencefiction.com/outerlimits/ol14.htm. or perhaps
www.sciencefiction.com/outerlimits/o114.htm. Notice the little goatee. Why a
goatee on the head of something with the body of an insect? Didn't we have
Vincent Price's goatee on his head when it was going to be eaten by the
spider in the movie The Fly? Wasn't there a cartoon years ago in which one
character was a hepcat spider who had a human head, complete with goatee and
beret? (Trivia). Even the chimerical monster in Forbidden Planet may have
the feet of a mythologic beast, but it still has Walter Pigeon's goatee.
I propose a new symmetry law, which as to do with goatee-invariance under
imaginary morphomythological monster transformations.
The fact that Jerusalem crickets don't have a goatee only shows that they're
real.
Thoughtfully,
Steve Harris
news:2a0cceff.0204...@posting.google.com...
> I recall the plot of the Xanti misfits: in the end the alien ant race
> contacts us and explains that theirs is peaceful culture, and that
> these were criminals. They were sent to Earth because they had no
> capital punishement on their world, but they knew we would be able to
> carry out the job.
>
> Comments:
>
> Sending prisoners to a planet infested with lethal creatures is not
> morally equivalent to killing them?
>
> And the sentient bipeds their prisoners were sure to kill before they
> enraged us enough to kill them weren't in effect killed by the
> negligence of the distant "peaceful" Xanti?
>
> The Xanti don't seem to have been a truly moral race; more moral
> equivocators.
Yes, and butt-ugly, too.
There's a pic of a Zanti (got spelling wrong) at
www.sciencefiction.com/outerlimits/ol14.htm. Notice the little goatee. Why a
goatee on the head of something with the body of an insect? Didn't we have
Vincent Price's goatee on his head when it was going to be eaten by the
spider in the movie The Fly? Wasn't there a cartoon years ago in which one
character was a hepcat spider who had a human head, complete with goatee and
beret? (Trivia). Even the chimerical monster in Forbidden Planet may have
the feet of a mythologic beast, but it still has Walter Pigeon's goatee.
I propose a new symmetry law, which as to do with goatee-invariance under
imaginary morphomythological monster transformations.
The fact that Jerusalem crickets don't have a goatee only shows that they're
real.
Thoughtfully,
SBH