Aspirin for atherosclerosis, prostate cancer prevention and colon cancer cure, etc.
Steve Harris
"hilite" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:mloa9u8nj96dhlnog...@4ax.com...
> Whay won't doctors comment on aspirin usage?
Because we don't know. They stopped the Physician's Health Study, the only
one that would have answered the question, before the life span results were
in.
So all we know is that low dose asprin decreases stroke and heart attack at
low doses, but increases GI bleeding. Probably it's a good bet for anyone
with any serious atherosclerotic risk factors (over 50, hypertension, LDL >
160, smoker, male, obese, family history). But don't take it if you have an
ulcer history, without care to use acid blockade treatment, and under MD
supervision. It might be better if routine acid blockade (Zantac) and a
multivitamin was used by everyone who considers therapeutic low-dose
aspirin. I certainly put all my low-dose aspirin patients on Zantac, and
they get something more powerful if they've had any ulcer history. I can't
prove that any of this is the right thing to do, prevention-wise, since the
crucial studies aren't there.
SBH
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:36:56 GMT, hilite <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
> >What is the opinion on the best aspirin dosage for a 'healthy' male
> >with a 5% chance of a heart attack in the next year?
> >
> >Since aspirin is also able to prevent prostate cancer, and that is
> >another concern of mine, do you think 80mg or 160mg per day would be
> >best?
> >
> >Since long term use of aspirin is a little risky, do you think it
> >would be sensible to take aspirin daily for two months and then skip
> >it for a month to give the body a chance to recover, and then continue
> >this regimen indefinitely?
> >
> >How much aspirin do you think is required to kill colon cancer?
> >
> >Since aspirin is beneficial in the treatment and prevention of 2 types
> >of cancer, don't you think it's reasonable to think it will also help
> >prevent and cure other types as well?
>
--
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Matti Narkia
<a75m6q$ve1$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net> "Steve Harris"
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>
>"hilite" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
>news:mloa9u8nj96dhlnog...@4ax.com...
>> Whay won't doctors comment on aspirin usage?
>
>Because we don't know. They stopped the Physician's Health Study, the only
>one that would have answered the question, before the life span results were
>in.
>
>So all we know is that low dose asprin decreases stroke and heart attack at
>low doses, but increases GI bleeding. Probably it's a good bet for anyone
>with any serious atherosclerotic risk factors (over 50, hypertension, LDL >
>160, smoker, male, obese, family history). But don't take it if you have an
>ulcer history, without care to use acid blockade treatment, and under MD
>supervision. It might be better if routine acid blockade (Zantac) and a
>multivitamin was used by everyone who considers therapeutic low-dose
>aspirin. I certainly put all my low-dose aspirin patients on Zantac, and
>they get something more powerful if they've had any ulcer history. I can't
>prove that any of this is the right thing to do, prevention-wise, since the
>crucial studies aren't there.
>
receptor antagonist, which are known also to modulate immune system by
blocking T suppressor cells. This could be a benefit in some cancers,
especially in cancer immunotherapy. Another histamine H2 receptor
antagonist, Tagamet (cimetidine), is, however, a stronger immune
modulator than Zantac, and in preliminary studies it has been found to
have a stronger anti-cancer effect that Zantac.
Aspirin inhibits COX-1 much better than COX-2. In many cancers COX-2 is
induced and is overexpressed. COX-2 is also know to increase tumor
angiogenesis and suppress immune system. Therefore in cancer prevention
and in experimental cancer treatments NSAIDs which inhibit COX-2 better
that aspirin could be more useful. Indomethacin has been often used
in experimental cancer treatment, and now new selective COX-2 inhibitors
such as Celebrex (celecoxib) are being used. Indomethacin and cimetidine
(or ranitidine) have frequently been used together.
References:
Tassinari D, Sartori S, Cangiotti C, Gianni L, Rinaldi P, Ravaioli A,
Iorio D.
[Regression of primary gastric lymphoma after treatment with ranitidine]
Recenti Prog Med. 1997 Apr;88(4):179-80. Italian.
PMID: 9206815 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9206815&dopt=Abstract
Altomare DF, Lupo L, Pannarale OC, Di Corcia MG, Memeo V.
Reduction of postoperative immunosuppression with ranitidine in patients
with cancer of the stomach or large bowel.
Eur J Surg. 1995 Feb;161(2):109-13.
PMID: 7772628 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7772628&dopt=Abstract
Nielsen HJ, Moesgaard F, Hammer JH.
Effect of ranitidine and low-dose interleukin-2 in vitro on NK-cell
activity in peripheral blood from patients with liver metastases from
colorectal cancer.
Eur J Surg Oncol. 1995 Oct;21(5):526-30.
PMID: 7589599 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7589599&dopt=Abstract
Mertens WC, Bramwell VH, Banerjee D, Gwadry-Sridhar F, Lala PK.
Sustained indomethacin and ranitidine with intermittent continuous
infusion interleukin-2 in advanced malignant melanoma: a phase II study.
Clin Oncol (R Coll Radiol). 1993;5(2):107-13.
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Mertens WC, Lohmann RC.
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Clin Oncol (R Coll Radiol). 1996;8(2):112-5.
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Mertens WC, Bramwell VH, Gwadry-Sridhar F, Romano W, Banerjee D,
Lala PK.
Effect of indomethacin plus ranitidine in advanced melanoma patients on
high-dose interleukin-2.
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Smith T, Clark JW, Popp MB.
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Arch Intern Med. 1987 Oct;147(10):1815-6.
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Mertens WC, Bramwell VH, Banerjee D, Gwadry-Sridhar F, al-Mutter N,
Parhar RS, Lala PK.
Sustained oral indomethacin and ranitidine with intermittent continuous
infusion interleukin-2 in advanced renal cell carcinoma.
Cancer Biother. 1993 Fall;8(3):229-33.
PMID: 7804363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Burtin C, Noirot C, Scheinmann P, Galoppin L, Sabolovic D, Bernard P.
Clinical improvement in advanced cancer disease after treatment
combining histamine and H2-antihistaminics (ranitidine or cimetidine).
Eur J Cancer Clin Oncol. 1988 Feb;24(2):161-7.
PMID: 3356203 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Griswold DE, Alessi S, Badger AM, Poste G, Hanna N.
Inhibition of T suppressor cell expression by histamine type 2 (H2)
receptor antagonists.
J Immunol. 1984 Jun;132(6):3054-7.
PMID: 6202771 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Nanda NK, Nath I.
Characteristics of histamine receptors present on suppressor T cells in
"healthy individuals".
Int J Immunopharmacol. 1985;7(4):587-95.
PMID: 2931386 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2931386&dopt=Abstract
Griswold DE, Alessi S, Badger AM, Poste G, Hanna N.
Differential sensitivity of T suppressor cell expression to inhibition
by histamine type 2 receptor antagonists.
J Immunol. 1986 Sep 15;137(6):1811-5.
PMID: 2875110 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2875110&dopt=Abstract
Evaluation of Histamine2-Receptor-Antagonists (H2-Antagonists)
http://dacc.bsd.uchicago.edu/drug/Bulletins/n1096.html
"H2-antagonists have been found to improve the function of various
parts of the immune system.(6,7) There have been anecdotal reports
of the usefulness of histamine-antagonists in the treatment of
various cancers refractory to standard treatments (eg, lung
cancer, malignant melanoma). The proposed mechanism of
immunomodulative effects is the inhibition of suppressor T-
lymphocyte activity, an increase in interleukin-2 production, and
an enhancement of natural killer cell activity. Hahm and
colleagues compared the in vitro effects of cimetidine, ranitidine
and famotidine on peripheral blood mononuclear cells in normal
controls and patients with gastric cancer. They concluded that
cimetidine had the strongest and famotidine had the weakest
immunomodulating effect. Cimetidine was found to proliferate
peripheral blood mononuclear cells and increase cytotoxic
capability. Famotidine had no effects on lymphoproliferation and
cytotoxicity. Ranitidine and famotidine were also inferior to
cimetidine in inhibiting suppressor T-cell activity, increasing
interleukin-2 production and enhancing natural killer cell
activity. The authors speculated that this difference may be due
to the fact that famotidine and ranitidine lack the imidazole
nucleus common to histamine and cimetidine."
Hahm KB, Park IS, Kim HC, Lee KJ, Kim JH, Cho SW, Lee SI.
Comparison of antiproliferative effects of 1-histamine-2 receptor
antagonists, cimetidine, ranitidine, and famotidine, in gastric cancer
cells.
Int J Immunopharmacol. 1996 Jun-Jul;18(6-7):393-9.
PMID: 9024941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9024941&dopt=Abstract
Hahm KB, Kim WH, Lee SI, Kang JK, Park IS.
Comparison of immunomodulative effects of the histamine-2 receptor
antagonists cimetidine, ranitidine, and famotidine on peripheral blood
mononuclear cells in gastric cancer patients.
Scand J Gastroenterol. 1995 Mar;30(3):265-71.
PMID: 7770717 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7770717&dopt=Abstract
Uotila P.
Inhibition of prostaglandin E2 formation and histamine action in cancer
immunotherapy.
Cancer Immunol Immunother. 1993 Sep;37(4):251-4. Review.
PMID: 8102321 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8102321&dopt=Abstract
"The activity of cell-mediated defense systems is stimulated by
consecutive formation of interleukin-1 beta (IL-1 beta),
interleukin-2 (IL-2) and interferon gamma (IFN gamma). The system
is inhibited by interleukin-4 (IL-4) and also by prostaglandin E2
(PGE2) and histamine, which are released when the immune system is
activated. The inhibition is strong in cancer patients, because
PGE2 is formed in many cancer cells and its formation is
stimulated by IL-1 beta. The release of histamine is also
stimulated by IL-1 beta. Thus PGE2 and histamine are feedback
inhibitors of cell-mediated immunity. This inhibition can be
abolished by inhibitors of the cyclo-oxygenase (e.g. indomethacin)
and H-2 receptor antagonists (e.g. cimetidine). This may offer a
new option to stimulate the immune system to kill cancer cells."
Kumar A, Cleveland RP.
"Immunoregulatory effects of cimetidine: inhibition of suppressor cell
effector function in vivo".
Immunopharmacol Immunotoxicol. 1988;10(3):327-32.
PMID: 2974050 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2974050&dopt=Abstract
Kumar A.
Cimetidine: an immunomodulator.
DICP. 1990 Mar;24(3):289-95. Review.
PMID: 2138376 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2138376&dopt=Abstract
Brockmeyer NH, Kreuzfelder E, Bluhm C, Shen G, Scheiermann E, Keinecke
HO, Ohnhaus EE.
Immunomodulation of cimetidine in healthy volunteers.
Klin Wochenschr. 1989 Jan 4;67(1):26-30.
PMID: 2522158 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2522158&dopt=Abstract
Gifford RR, Voss BV, Schmidtke JR, Ferguson RM.
Histamine type-2 receptor antagonist immune modulation. I. Increased
cell-mediated cytotoxicity in normal and in down-regulated systems.
Surgery. 1988 Feb;103(2):184-92.
PMID: 2963399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2963399&dopt=Abstract
Brockmeyer NH, Kreuzfelder E, Guttmann W, Mertins L, Goos M, Ohnhaus EE.
Cimetidine and the immuno-response in healthy volunteers.
J Invest Dermatol. 1989 Dec;93(6):757-61.
PMID: 2573637 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2573637&dopt=Abstract
(ATN) Cimetidine (Tagamet) As Immunomodulator, Antitumor Treatment?
AIDS TREATMENT NEWS #80, June 2, 1989
Denny Smith
http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1989/ATN08005.html
Hirai N, Hill NO, Motoo Y, Osther K.
Antiviral and antiproliferative activities of human leukocyte interferon
potentiated by cimetidine in vitro.
J Interferon Res. 1985 Summer;5(3):375-82.
PMID: 2997335 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2997335&dopt=Abstract
Zeng P, Xiao J, Lei Y.
[Cell-mediated immune function in NPC patients treated with cimetidine]
Zhonghua Zhong Liu Za Zhi. 1995 May;17(3):223-5. Chinese.
PMID: 7656832 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7656832&dopt=Abstract
Miller A, Harel D, Laor A, Lahat N.
Cimetidine as an immunomodulator in the treatment of herpes zoster.
J Neuroimmunol. 1989 Mar;22(1):69-76.
PMID: 2521868 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2521868&dopt=Abstract
Segal R, Dayan M, Epstein N, Zecler E, Peller S, Michalevitch R,
Brautbar C, Moses E.
Common variable immunodeficiency: a family study and therapeutic trial
with cimetidine.
J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1989 Nov;84(5 Pt 1):753-61.
PMID: 2530265 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2530265&dopt=Abstract
Richtsmeier WJ, Eisele D.
In vivo anergy reversal with cimetidine in patients with cancer.
Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg. 1986 Oct;112(10):1074-7.
PMID: 3755977 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3755977&dopt=Abstract
"Impaired cell-mediated immune response is commonly seen in
patients with squamous cell carcinoma of the head and neck. This
immune defect has been associated with poor clinical performance.
Recent evidence indicates an immunoregulatory action for
cimetidine. For this reason, the effect of this medication on
delayed hypersensitivity reactions in previously untreated
patients with squamous cell carcinoma of the head and neck was
studied. Patients hyporesponsive to an initial skin test battery
were treated with cimetidine. A statistically significant increase
in delayed hypersensitivity responses on repeated skin testing
during cimetidine hydrochloride therapy was observed. Four of
these patients who converted their skin tests while receiving
cimetidine were again studied one to two weeks after cessation of
therapy. All four returned to their precimetidine treatment
status. These skin test response results suggest that histamine-
mediated suppression of immune response occurs in patients with
head and neck cancer. Cimetidine should be considered as an
immunomodulator in patients with squamous cell carcinoma of the
head and neck."
Flodgren P, Sjogren HO.
Influence in vitro on NK and K cell activities by cimetidine and
indomethacin with and without simultaneous exposure to interferon.
Cancer Immunol Immunother. 1985;19(1):28-34.
PMID: 3844972 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3844972&dopt=Abstract
Siegers CP, Andresen S, Keogh JP.
Does cimetidine improve prospects for cancer patients?. A reappraisal of
the evidence to date.
Digestion. 1999 Sep-Oct;60(5):415-21. Review.
PMID: 10473965 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10473965&dopt=Abstract
Takahashi K, Tanaka S, Ichikawa A. R
Effect of cimetidine on intratumoral cytokine expression in an
experimental tumor.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2001 Mar16;281(5):1113-9.
PMID: 11243850 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11243850&dopt=Abstract
-Matti Narkia
hilite
Do you know how much aspirin was used to cure colon cancer?
Do you know how much aspirin was used to prevent prostate cancer?
How much aspirin do you prescribe for prevention of heart attacks and
strokes?
Do you think it might be beneficial to alternate short periods of no
aspirin intake with longer periods of daily aspirin intake (just
asking for your expert opinion as a practicing doctor).
Somewhat Useful Trainer
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
> It might be better if routine acid blockade (Zantac) and a
>multivitamin was used by everyone who considers therapeutic low-dose
>aspirin.
Why the multi and is the aspirin creating additional acid output?
Steve Harris
The multivitamin for the B12 which you'll need in a non-protein bound form,
if you suppress gastric acid production. The aspirin does NOT create
additional acid output, but it does make ulcers bleed. If you have no acid
or less acid it's much easier to avoid ulcers in the first place.
--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my address. It's open
book. A prize to the first spambot that passes my Turing test.
Paul Chefurka
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>Somewhat Useful Trainer wrote in message ...
>>On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:20:42 -0700, "Steve Harris"
>><sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It might be better if routine acid blockade (Zantac) and a
>>>multivitamin was used by everyone who considers therapeutic low-dose
>>>aspirin.
>>
>>Why the multi and is the aspirin creating additional acid output?
>
>
>The multivitamin for the B12 which you'll need in a non-protein bound form,
>if you suppress gastric acid production. The aspirin does NOT create
>additional acid output, but it does make ulcers bleed. If you have no acid
>or less acid it's much easier to avoid ulcers in the first place.
Would your recommendation for acid blockade still hold in the absence of
ulcers, eg. with a negative test for h. pylori? Or is the risk of gastric
bleeding from aspirin even in the absence of ulcers high enough to cause
concern?
Paul
Somewhat Useful Trainer
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:34:45 -0800, "Steve Harris"
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
Alf Christophersen
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>The multivitamin for the B12 which you'll need in a non-protein bound form,
>if you suppress gastric acid production. The aspirin does NOT create
>additional acid output, but it does make ulcers bleed. If you have no acid
>or less acid it's much easier to avoid ulcers in the first place.
COX 1 is needed to induce mucus formation and release in stomach cell
lining. Inhibiting COX 1 stop the mucus formation and cell layer is
then exposed and stomach acid may damage the lining and make ulcers.
CCRDoc
colon cancer cure, etc.
From: Paul Chefurka pa...@chefurka.com
Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2002 10:05 AM
Message-id: <g8ve9u40p0sa1gfnl...@4ax.com> >>
<<
Would your recommendation for acid blockade still hold in the absence of
ulcers, eg. with a negative test for h. pylori? Or is the risk of gastric
bleeding from aspirin even in the absence of ulcers high enough to cause
concern?
Paul
COMMENT
Nobody knows. We only know that aspirin given to a large population of
apparently healthy people (in the PHS study it was almost entirely nonsmoking
Harvard grad physicians, ages 40 and up) increases severe gastric bleed
incidence with statistical siginificance (it goes from a little risk to 2x a
little risk, or something). I PRESUME many of these were people with
subclinical ulcer disease, many of which had H. pylori. But this was never
investigated or proven. So how you want to scew the odds in your favor on this
issue if you decide to go on aspirin is up to you. But I'd recommend doing
something.
SBHarris
>>
hilite
Interesting. However....
The number of people who experience GI bleeding while on a daily
aspirin regimen is very small - 1 per 1000 per year and......
people who use low-dose aspirin daily are most likely to experience GI
bleeding during the first 60 days. This leads me to conclude that not
many ulcers are formed after people begin a daily aspirin regimen.
Otherwise the bleeding would be more common and more evenly
distributed over time.
Even if the aspirin regimen creates more ulcers, ulcers are quite easy
to cure. And the aspirin can prevent heart attacks, strokes, colon
cancer and prostate cancer, all of which are difficult or impossible
to cure. Furthermore, it seems likely that aspirin will prevent and
cure other kinds of cancer as well.
Alf Christophersen
>Even if the aspirin regimen creates more ulcers, ulcers are quite easy
>to cure. And the aspirin can prevent heart attacks, strokes, colon
>cancer and prostate cancer, all of which are difficult or impossible
>to cure. Furthermore, it seems likely that aspirin will prevent and
>cure other kinds of cancer as well.
By using low dose enterosoluble aspirine, even less side effects
should be seen.
By the way, there are many reports that H. pylorii inhibits COX I
about the same way as aspirine and thus inhibits mucus formation and
increase HCl release.
Steve Harris
>Interesting. However....
>The number of people who experience GI bleeding while on a daily
>aspirin regimen is very small - 1 per 1000 per year and......
This is not trivial. It's on the same order of risk that you'll be
hospitalized for a traffic accident this year. Would you willynilly double
your risk of being hospitalized for a car wreck?
>people who use low-dose aspirin daily are most likely to experience GI
>bleeding during the first 60 days. This leads me to conclude that not
>many ulcers are formed after people begin a daily aspirin regimen.
>Otherwise the bleeding would be more common and more evenly
>distributed over time.
Agreed, and it is for this reason I infer that low-dose aspirin mainly is
responsible for making pre-existing ulcers bleed. At these doses, the
effect is purely a platelet problem, not a COX inhibition problem. There
isn't enough aspirin in a baby aspirin to permanently inhibit COX-1 except
in your platelets (which can't regenerate it).
>Even if the aspirin regimen creates more ulcers, ulcers are quite easy
>to cure.
Not when they bleed enough to put you in the hospital. By that time it's
serious business.
>And the aspirin can prevent heart attacks, strokes, colon
>cancer and prostate cancer, all of which are difficult or impossible
>to cure. Furthermore, it seems likely that aspirin will prevent and
>cure other kinds of cancer as well.
There's no good prospective evidence for aspirin and cancer yet. And even if
it does work, it will be at doses higher than necessary for stroke and heart
attack. Again, the tradeoff may not be a good one unless you know more
about your stomach.
Somewhat Useful Trainer
(Alf Christophersen) wrote:
>By using low dose enterosoluble aspirine, even less side effects
>should be seen.
Could you name one by brand? I take an 80mg Target version with Zantac
daily. Comments on dosage levels (185 lbs, male) would be also
appreciated.
su-t...@webtv.net
i have not had time to read this entire thread, but ...
for strokes (which resulted from my being injured), i was told to take
one low-dosage, enteric-coated aspirin a day.
------------------
the doctor/stroke-specialist told me to just take a baby aspirin daily,
.. so i had to research & ask questions of other people, in order to
learn about the benefits of enteric-coated aspirin.
enteric-coated aspirin passes through the stomach, & then dissolves in
the intestine, which is better.
(the cheapest low-dosage, enteric-coated aspirin that i have found, is
the Equate brand at WalMart.)
the baby aspirin had artificial flavors, colors, etc, that i did not
want.
a baby aspirin or low-dosage aspirin = one-fourth of a regular aspirin
when i contacted the stroke doctor, to tell him about the benefits of
low-dosage, enteric-coated aspirin over regular baby aspirin, he seemed
not to be impressed or interested.
---------------
i was refused all other information, care, & referral by the
stroke-doctor/neurologist, because he said i wasnt overweight, & did not
have high blood pressure, diabetes, etc., ... & that he knew of no
doctor or specialist who was interested in testing for and/or treating
injuries, & especially not those injuries which were causing strokes.
???
that was at the university in Dallas, TX.
so i had to strengthen my left & right sides, & to learn to speak more
plainly again, on my own & alone, ... despite my having excellent health
insurance.
later, i was also refuse medical care, treatment, information, &
referral by his co-worker, who was a stroke-specialist/neurologist also.
uh, what are doctors supposed to be good for?
please remind me.
& are these the same guys/docs, that we are supposed to be getting
prescriptions for vitamins from, after/when vitamins become a controlled
substance?
yeah, i have met a few really good doctors, but most docs arent worth
much any more.
-------------
now that i have third-stage breast cancer & am taking chemotherapy (AC),
i have been told NOT to take aspirin under any circumstances, during the
chemo.
dozens of doctors/specialists refused to acknowledge that the breast
lump could be cancer, until the lump was about 6 inches long, 15 cm.
as far as i know, there are no enforceable legal penalties left now in
the US (especially in Texas & Louisiana), that we can use against even
the worst wont-work docs.
this current situation seems to have been caused mostly, by the corrupt,
self-serving politicians, by their bad laws, & by greed.
---------------
Cancer Prevention or Cancer Treatment, They Are Very Different
cancer prevention & cancer treatment, seem to be two very different
things.
often you can have cancer for ten or fifteen years, before any evidence
of it shows up, which does complicate things a bit.
should you eat for cancer prevention, or eat to better control those
cancers which you might already have?
???
susan, su_texas my opinions
Somewhat Useful Trainer
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>There's no good prospective evidence for aspirin and cancer yet. And even if
>it does work, it will be at doses higher than necessary for stroke and heart
>attack. Again, the tradeoff may not be a good one unless you know more
>about your stomach.
When you say "know about stomach" are you referring to a specific
gastrointestinal exam/test or a previously diagnosed medical issue?
Steve Harris
Both.
Steve Harris
You can get by on as little as 40 mg aspirin (1/2 baby aspirin) every other
day (if you can remember to dose it that way). At these doses, what brand of
aspirin you take is irrelevent (just take it with food so it doesn't sit up
against the stomach wall and cause irritation).
hilite
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>There's no good prospective evidence for aspirin and cancer yet.
Yes there is some prospective evidence. See below:
Aspirin starves colon tumors to death
Study explains how common painkiller prevents colon cancer
By Charlene Laino
MSNBC
It’s well known that regular aspirin users are at lower risk of colon
cancer than people who don’t regularly take the common painkiller, but
scientists have never really been sure why. Now, Tennessee researchers
report that aspirin may choke off the blood supply to colon tumors,
thereby starving the cancer to death.
THE NEW WORK found that aspirin acts as an anti-angiogenesis agent,
much like the well-publicized combination of drugs that completely
cured tumors in mice.
The find could lead to the development of more targeted drugs
to prevent colon cancer that don’t have the side effects sometimes
associated with chronic use of painkillers, said study author Dr.
Raymond N. DuBois, director of gastroenterology at Vanderbilt Cancer
Center in Nashville.
Aspirin appears to act in two ways to block the growth of blood
vessels that feed tumors, thus cutting off their nutrient supply and
killing them.
The research builds on earlier work by DuBois and his
colleagues that suggested aspirin and other non-steroidal
anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen help prevent colon
cancer by inhibiting certain enzymes.
Over two dozen studies have shown that taking aspirin cuts the
risk of colon cancer by about half, according to DuBois.
His study appears in this week’s issue of the journal Cell.
DuBois’ team grew colon cancer cells in a dish, and found they
started growing little blood vessels. This process is known as
angiogenesis.
Aspirin worked in two ways — by inhibiting an enzyme known as
COX-1 in the tumor cells that normally produces factors that prompt
angiogenesis, and by inhibiting a second enzyme called COX-2 necessary
for the formation of the blood vessels that feed the tumor.
Together, the pathways eliminate the flow of blood to tumors,
much like chopping a plant off at its roots.
Despite the fact they are known to lower colon cancer risk, NSAIDS are
not usually recommended as a cancer preventive because of the high
risk of stomach bleeding associated with chronic use.
But the new work suggests that drugs that inhibit COC-1 or
COX-2 might be equally effective at staving off cancer, without the
side effects, DuBois said.
He said his team is now testing COX-2 inhibitors in animals,
with good results. Not surprisingly, COX-2 blockers seem to
particularly effective in tumors that made high levels of COX-2 — a
characteristic shared by about 80 percent of colon tumors.
Nevertheless, drugs that work in mice do not always pan out in
humans. Human testing is underway, DuBois noted.
“There’s long been a question about how aspirin reduces the
risk for developing colon cancer, and in this model system, we found
two ways in which that might be happening,” DuBois said. “If we can
better understand the mechanism involved, we may be able to find other
ways to effectively block angiogenesis. However, we need to keep in
mind that these results will have to be validated” in humans.
One drug his team has worked with is Searle/Monsanto’s
celecoxib, a COX-2 inhibitor, which is expected to go up soon for U.S.
Food and Drug Administration approval.
Reuters contributed to this story.
-----------------------------
Painkillers May Prevent Prostate Cancer: Study
Tue Mar 12,11:04 AM ET
ROCHESTER, Minn. (Reuters) - Regular use of aspirin, ibuprofen and
other common painkillers appear to protect against prostate cancer
(news - web sites) among older men, Mayo Clinic researchers said on
Tuesday.
Men over age 60 who took a daily dose of one of the drugs known
collectively as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) were
half as likely to develop the disease, which is the second-leading
cancer killer among US men with more than 30,000 deaths expected this
year.
The 5.5-year study of 1,362 white men in Minnesota found 4% of those
who took the drugs developed prostate cancer, versus 9% of those who
did not. The older the patient, the more pronounced the protective
effect of the drugs, the study found.
But Mayo Clinic researcher Rosebud Roberts, writing in the journal
Mayo Clinic Proceedings, cautioned that the results were inconclusive
and needed confirmation.
"We also need to determine the duration and dosage use that provides
protection against prostate cancer, and to better understand the
biologic mechanisms underlying the association between NSAIDs and
prostate cancer," Roberts said.
In addition, regular use of such drugs can be harmful, causing stomach
problems and liver damage in some people.
Roberts said previous studies have shown NSAIDs offer protection
against breast cancers in women and against colon cancer.
The study, part of a larger survey, was also focused solely on white
male subjects.
"African-American men have the highest risk of prostate cancer. We
need to complete additional research to determine if these findings
are applicable to them," Roberts said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somewhat Useful Trainer
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>You can get by on as little as 40 mg aspirin (1/2 baby aspirin) every other
>day (if you can remember to dose it that way). At these doses, what brand of
>aspirin you take is irrelevent (just take it with food so it doesn't sit up
>against the stomach wall and cause irritation).
Thanks. Cutting those baby aspirin in half is a bitch with my eyes.
Somewhat Useful Trainer
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>>When you say "know about stomach" are you referring to a specific
>>gastrointestinal exam/test or a previously diagnosed medical issue?
>
>
>Both.
Barium?
Alf Christophersen
<somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Could you name one by brand? I take an 80mg Target version with Zantac
>daily. Comments on dosage levels (185 lbs, male) would be also
>appreciated.
Have no idea whether the brands in Norway are availble in US. Albyl is
to my knowledge such a beastie.
(SInce I do not use Albyl at moment, it is difficult to say)
Alf Christophersen
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>You can get by on as little as 40 mg aspirin (1/2 baby aspirin) every other
>day (if you can remember to dose it that way). At these doses, what brand of
>aspirin you take is irrelevent (just take it with food so it doesn't sit up
>against the stomach wall and cause irritation).
One early study reported good effects with 25 mg daily. That should
have almost none sideeffects. But here in Norway the lowest doses in
pills are 125 mg and most are 300 mg and more, which means lot of
trouble in dosing such small quanta :-(
(And now you need a prescription with such doses if you want more than
25 tablets)
Ron Roth
AC>about the same way as aspirine and thus inhibits mucus formation and
AC>increase HCl release.
--
H.Pylori doesn't increase HCl release, it's rather the
other way around.
--
Somewhat Useful Trainer
(Alf Christophersen) wrote:
>One early study reported good effects with 25 mg daily. That should
>have almost none sideeffects. But here in Norway the lowest doses in
>pills are 125 mg and most are 300 mg and more, which means lot of
>trouble in dosing such small quanta :-(
Just lick a baby aspirin until dissolved over a week :(
>(And now you need a prescription with such doses if you want more than
>25 tablets)
No. Really?
Steve Harris
>On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:09:05 -0800, "Steve Harris"
><sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>
>>You can get by on as little as 40 mg aspirin (1/2 baby aspirin) every
other
>>day (if you can remember to dose it that way). At these doses, what brand
of
>>aspirin you take is irrelevent (just take it with food so it doesn't sit
up
>>against the stomach wall and cause irritation).
BTW, I should note that this is only if you're swallowing them. If you're
chewing the nice orange flavor baby aspirin till it disolves, then no
problem.
>One early study reported good effects with 25 mg daily. That should
>have almost none sideeffects.
Yeah, 25 mg daily is pretty close to 40 mg every other day. Okay, half a
chewable baby aspirin a day.
Again, this has nearly as much effect on platelets as 10 full aspirin a day.
Yes it can have side effects. It can give you bloody noses if you're prone
to them, and all kinds of odd things.
> But here in Norway the lowest doses in
>pills are 125 mg and most are 300 mg and more, which means lot of
>trouble in dosing such small quanta :-(
They don't have children's aspirin in Norway? Surely you jest.
>(And now you need a prescription with such doses if you want more than
>25 tablets)
State nannyism. Don't you just love being treated like a child? I'm
surprised all adults aren't given children's aspirin in Norway-- it would go
right along with the philosophy.
Steve Harris
Or endoscopy. Anything that gives you some idea of what your stomach looks
like. If you have risk factors (previous ulcers, you smoke, you're a young
male) you might want to consider seeing your doc for a stool blood test
before you just willy nilly put yourself on aspirin. Even if that's
negative, I still think the Zantac's a good idea for anybody with ulcer risk
factors who's going on aspirin for no particular reason other than
cardiovascular risk factors. Understand that I'm giving you my intuitive
guess there, though. There are NO studies to directly add up all the risks,
and prove that Zantac is cost effective, or effective at all, at lowering
your risk of GI bleed from going on low dose aspirin.
SBH
Somewhat Useful Trainer
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:28:57 -0800, "Steve Harris"
David Wright
Then try using a knife or a pill splitter instead.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders."
Alf Christophersen
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>They don't have children's aspirin in Norway? Surely you jest.
Baby paracet I think. Aspirine is more or less banned. The risk of
adverse effects of aspirine in babies is to big. I agree that tablets
of the kind you mention should be available. Maybe someone start to
produce it??
(The problem is to get it registered. For each new dose presented oin
the market, each preparat has to be extensively tested and compared to
those already in the market. It must be significantly better and there
should be no health risk. Aspirine has too long time since disproven
the last. It is risky for your health, and is on the schedule to be
completely banned and should be substituted by other NSAIDs.
>State nannyism. Don't you just love being treated like a child? I'm
>surprised all adults aren't given children's aspirin in Norway-- it would go
>right along with the philosophy.
Do you have the billions of dollar to prove that ??
I think most pharmacological industry use those money for testing new,
patentable products, not for an oldfashioned, nonpatentable product
with such a long array of side effects.
(I think industry is the part withholding the baby aspirin, not
government. It is also the same that apply to why taurine is not
registered either. You have to do huge clinical studies with patients
in Norway and compare the medicine with many others in blind tests to
prove that your medicine and dosage and formulation is better than the
preparats already existing on the Norwegian market. Testing in other
countries don't count since there may be genetic differences that is
more usual here than in other countries which may be significant for
the results, eg. increased health risk because abundance of a genetic
mutation making the medicine lethal or giving increased rates of side
effects. Like ethanol consumption in some Asians and Indians (native
US) where a mutation in liver alcohol dehydrogenase makes alcohol
turns faster into acetaldehyde giving a far more toxic effect of
alcohol intake than in those without the mutation.)
Alf Christophersen
> H.Pylori doesn't increase HCl release, it's rather the
> other way around.
Never seen any reports on increase of mucus formation which is the
other way around.
Steve Harris
>Do you have the billions of dollar to prove that ??
>I think most pharmacological industry use those money for testing new,
>patentable products, not for an oldfashioned, nonpatentable product
>with such a long array of side effects.
Well, then, you need to reformulate the patent laws, just as we do. What
stands in the way of THAT is people with a simple greed for other people's
ideas, and the money that comes from them. You think if I write a book or a
song I should have rights to it for my entire life (and my heirs probably
for some time after- 50 years in the US). But if I have a new idea for a new
machine or drug you want to steal it after 20 years. And your greed and
your envy for men (and women) of ideas that don't happen to be artsy fartsy
ideas, has shot you in the foot. Surprise. It's enough to make Ayn Rand
smile from Hell.
>(I think industry is the part withholding the baby aspirin, not
>government.
Now, it's the laws the prevent industry from doing something that would
otherwise be in everyone's best interest. The laws made by You The People.
Who, in your short term greed, do not understand that Communism of Ideas
works about as well as Communism of Agriculture.
It took them 70 *&^%ing years to figure out why they were standing in lines
in food stores in Communist Russia. People in aggregate are Dumb. Dumber
than rocks. And even when not, they are made stupid by envy, and would
rather suffer themselves than allow their neighbors to prosper. In Russia
they tell the tale of Boris and Ivan who are equally dirt poor, with the one
difference that Boris has a goat which Ivan doesn't. One day a genie appears
to Ivan and grants him one wish. Ivan thinks. "I want Boris' goat should
die."
> It is also the same that apply to why taurine is not
>registered either. You have to do huge clinical studies with patients
>in Norway and compare the medicine with many others in blind tests to
>prove that your medicine and dosage and formulation is better than the
>[preparationa] already existing on the Norwegian market.
Again a problem of patent law. And again a problem of stupidity. There are
many nutrients which aren't dangerous enough to require a full fledged
investigation of efficacy before allowing them to be legal. Do you do that
with foods? With cooking methods? No.
> Testing in other
>countries don't count since there may be genetic differences that is
>more usual here than in other countries which may be significant for
>the results, eg. increased health risk because abundance of a genetic
>mutation making the medicine lethal or giving increased rates of side
>effects. Like ethanol consumption in some Asians and Indians (native
>US) where a mutation in liver alcohol dehydrogenase makes alcohol
>turns faster into acetaldehyde giving a far more toxic effect of
>alcohol intake than in those without the mutation.)
That's nonsensical post hoc rationalizing. Testing in other countries is
generally not recognized because of ethnic bias. And I'm not talking
about genes, but generic cultural bigotry. We do the same in the US. I'm
sure you're deathly afraid that your pure Norwegian genes will react
differently to some drug which has only been tested on mongrel Americans.
And guess what, we in the US are afraid that your scientists don't know what
they're doing. So it does. We both waste time and people die.
SBH
Alf Christophersen
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>for some time after- 50 years in the US). But if I have a new idea for a new
>machine or drug you want to steal it after 20 years. And your greed and
Hm Aspirine has been around for much more than 50 years and I doubt it
will be patentable or patented anymore in US neither.
And by the way, Norway is __not__ a communistic country, even though
you believe so. Well, I guess you have only heard about Norway in
radio, not even seen a picture or TV-pciture from any part of the
country. Seems also that you have no idea where on earth it is placed.
Maybe you are some of those believing Norway is a town in Sweden??
It's always fun looking at TV when some of our journalists ask US
citizens about Norway :-) About 99% of interviewees know nothing about
any European country or know at all anything about Europe.
Keith F. Lynch
> They don't have children's aspirin in Norway? Surely you jest.
I thought they got rid of children's aspirin everywhere, because of
Reye's syndrome.
--
Keith F. Lynch - k...@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
Steve Harris
news:a8glk6$10i$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> Steve Harris <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
> > They don't have children's aspirin in Norway? Surely you jest.
>
> I thought they got rid of children's aspirin everywhere, because of
> Reye's syndrome.
You're not supposed to use it for flu or chickenpox. Otherwise, however,
it's still useful and still sold.
--
I welcome Email from strangers with the minimal cleverness to fix my address
(it's an open-book test). I strongly recommend recipients of unsolicited
bulk Email ad spam use "http://combat.uxn.com" to get the true corporate
name of the last ISP address on the viewsource header, then forward message
& headers to "abuse@[offendingISP]."
Alf Christophersen
<sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>> I thought they got rid of children's aspirin everywhere, because of
>> Reye's syndrome.
>
>
>You're not supposed to use it for flu or chickenpox. Otherwise, however,
>it's still useful and still sold.
And should only be used in grown up to prevent heart attacks.