12-volt Fluorescent Lighting
Clark Martin
me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light fixtures,
I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last longer when we
are dry-camping.
I haven't had much luck in finding this type of light. Actually that's not
true. I can buy a fixture at an RV dealer for about $85 CDN. That's too
expensive - if I can't rig up something cheap (say up to $40) I won't
bother doing anything.
Any of you got any ideas about this? Are there 12-volt Fluorescent tubes
available? If anybody knows where I can buy something inexpensive please
let me know. It would be a bonus if I could purchase in Toronto, Ontario.
Thanks, Clark
Ralph Lindberg
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> My travel trailer has 12-volt incandescent lights installed. It occurred to
> me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light fixtures,
> I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last longer when we
> are dry-camping.
>
I did that with both of my RVs, it does help
> I haven't had much luck in finding this type of light. Actually that's not
> true. I can buy a fixture at an RV dealer for about $85 CDN. That's too
> expensive - if I can't rig up something cheap (say up to $40) I won't
> bother doing anything.
>
That certainly makes it harder, since they can run more then that US
> Any of you got any ideas about this? Are there 12-volt Fluorescent tubes
> available? If anybody knows where I can buy something inexpensive please
> let me know. It would be a bonus if I could purchase in Toronto, Ontario.
>
Good luck, I don't know any sources "up north", there certainly are,
but finding them will probably not be any fun.
In the states...
http://www.camperschoice.com/cgi-bin/more_info.pl?order_id=&cust_id=&grou
p_id=2318
http://www.camperschoice.com/cgi-bin/more_info.pl?order_id=&cust_id=&grou
p_id=2819
http://www.campingworld.com/browse/products/index.cfm?deptID=4&subOf=23&p
rodID=1445&src=TSC
Enjoy
--
Personal email n7...@amsat.org (@callsign.net's a SPAM trap)
Chris Bryant
> My travel trailer has 12-volt incandescent lights installed. It occurred
> to me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light
> fixtures, I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last
> longer when we are dry-camping.
>
> I haven't had much luck in finding this type of light. Actually that's
> not true. I can buy a fixture at an RV dealer for about $85 CDN. That's
> too expensive - if I can't rig up something cheap (say up to $40) I won't
> bother doing anything.
<<..>>
There are cheaper 12 volt fluorescent fixtures out there (from places like
JC Whitney), though the quality can be highly variable. You might check
out places that specialize in solar power- if you can fit a standard
lighting fixture in, you can get 12 volt compact fluorescent bulbs fairly
cheaply- like they show here-
http://www.cetsolar.com/dclighting.htm
--
Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com
Q
The fluorescent tubes themselves run off about 400 volts so the light
fixture has to convert whatever voltage you are using to that. The 12V units
such as Thinlight are very expensive and very poor quality. Consider using a
small inverter and running compact fluorescents. It works very well. Tiny
little 70 watt inverters can be picked up at Walmart for about $12 and will
run several CF lights.
Q
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
D.J. Osborn
> The fluorescent tubes themselves run off about 400 volts so the light
> fixture has to convert whatever voltage you are using to that. The 12V
units
> such as Thinlight are very expensive and very poor quality. Consider using
a
> small inverter and running compact fluorescents. It works very well. Tiny
> little 70 watt inverters can be picked up at Walmart for about $12 and
will
> run several CF lights.
I've had several Thinlite (not the spelling) fixtures for well over ten
years, and I've had *zero* problems with them. Therefore, I find your claim
that they are of "very poor quality" to be absolutely false.
--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
davidjosborn at sbcglobal dot net
mikeyhsd
"Ralph Lindberg" <n7...@callsign.net> wrote in message
news:n7bsn-ED3C7F....@news.fu-berlin.de...
Ralph E Lindberg
"Q" <qdm...@access4less.net> wrote:
> Clark,
>
> The fluorescent tubes themselves run off about 400 volts so the light
> fixture has to convert whatever voltage you are using to that. The 12V units
> such as Thinlight are very expensive and very poor quality. Consider using a
> small inverter and running compact fluorescents. It works very well. Tiny
> little 70 watt inverters can be picked up at Walmart for about $12 and will
> run several CF lights.
>
I suggest you don't know what you are talking about. I've used "12V"
fluorescent for over 10 years with zero problems, not one fixture
failure in that entire time. You also fail to mention that your
inverters have an efficiency of about 50%, which certainly doesn't help
people that are dry camping
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/RV
dave martin
> me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light fixtures,
> I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last longer when we
> are dry-camping.
<snip>
Walmart sells a 12V fluorescent fixture (for about $8 as I recall.)
It is designed to take 8 batteries but also has a connector for an
external 12V power supply. Ignore the batteries and wire it into your
12v system.
Any battery powered fluorescent fixture that takes 8 batteries (12V)
can probably be easily adapted to permanent installation. Look at
camping lanterns.
You can't beat the efficiency of fluorescent fixtures; about 4 times
more efficient than incandescent and at least as good as white LED.
The main downside of fluorescents as far as I can see is that they
don't give a lot of light in either very hot or very cold conditions.
This may not be much of a concern for normal use.
Carl
You may be interested in http://www.sunrayts.com/default.htm
They claim to have superior 12V fluorescent fixtures.
Carl
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Bob Giddings
wrote:
Try looking at this page:
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/lights2.htm
Page down to the L-949. I bought a couple of these at $37 US, and
have been pleased with them. They are small, about the size of a
double standard incandescent. Lots of light. Dunno about a Canadian
source.
Bob
www.arcatapet.net/bobgiddings
Current email at:
bobgiddings0 at yahoo dot com
GBinNC
<davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote:
>I've had several Thinlite (not the spelling)
Okay, so what *is* the spelling?
GB in NC
Clark Martin
links to look into.
Clark
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Steve Vallancourt
someone else's spelling or grammar and in turn they make a spelling/grammar
mistake in the process of being smugly corrective. In your expert opinion,
what exactly would that indicate???
Steve
Inquiring minds need to know...
"GBinNC" <GBi...@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
news:d84i301hc5lh0bf62...@4ax.com...
Steve Vallancourt
echo that advise of some others here - don't go too cheap, or you'll end up
with a light that won't last that long, and it'll cost more than the cost of
a better one by the time you're done replacing it. Ask me how I found that
one out<g>...When you're changing, also bear in mind that the fluorescent
light will throw more than an incandescent one - so you won't need as
many...
Steve
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
GBinNC
<steve...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>GB - I find it interesting when someone makes a side comment correcting
>someone else's spelling or grammar and in turn they make a spelling/grammar
>mistake in the process of being smugly corrective. In your expert opinion,
>what exactly would that indicate???
Maybe someone who has been emotionally affected by being called a
"goofy name"?
(You may not have been here when the "goofy name" thing was going
around. Were you?)
GB in NC
MrRagtime
Mexico. CW gets $8/pair. In Mexico, I pay $0.85 each. Available in standard
or blue white.
My coach takes 26 bulbs. They last a long time like any fluorescent but still
must be replaced occasionally. Buy a dozen or so at a time or colors won't
match.
All bulbs are the same - forget voltage - only the starting ballast in the
fixtujre MAY change.
MrRagtime
Q
You are entitled to your opinion.
I've lived off grid for over 15 years and have used dozens of types of 12V
fluorescent lights and inverters. Perhaps if you use a thinlight only
occasionally it will last acceptably long, but in daily use they don't hold
up. Also, it's been about 20 years since the old 50% efficient inverters
have been in common use. I've used a few of those old Triplite inverters
myself. A typical high frequency inverter is close to 90% efficient.
Q
"Ralph E Lindberg" <n7...@callsign.net> wrote in message
news:n7bsn-07643D....@news.fu-berlin.de...
Ralph E Lindberg
"Q" <qdm...@access4less.net> wrote:
> Ralph,
>
> You are entitled to your opinion.
>
> I've lived off grid for over 15 years and have used dozens of types of 12V
> fluorescent lights and inverters. Perhaps if you use a thinlight only
> occasionally it will last acceptably long, but in daily use they don't hold
> up. Also, it's been about 20 years since the old 50% efficient inverters
> have been in common use. I've used a few of those old Triplite inverters
> myself. A typical high frequency inverter is close to 90% efficient.
>
> Q
>
Ya, right, That might be your theory, but 1000's of hours per-year
isn't "light", nor are the inverters "close" to 90%, the ones that are
good, cost lots of money (here's a hint, I'm an EE and work in the
marine-industry, where we use both)
Ralph E Lindberg
wrote:
> Clark,
> You may be interested in http://www.sunrayts.com/default.htm
> They claim to have superior 12V fluorescent fixtures.
> Carl
>
We have Sunrays, and really like them, I forget who we bought them
from, but, they are worth the small amount of $$$ they cost
Clark Martin
the FL lights over the bed and use while reading. That may not be such a
good idea.
Clark
<can...@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message
news:gebj30tcafk8fs1io...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 05:30:20 -0800, "Q" <qdm...@access4less.net>
> wrote:
>
> The 12V units
> >such as Thinlight are very expensive and very poor quality.
>
> I have about fifteen Thinlite units in my coach, and have had zero
> problems with them. They are unobtrusive, clean looking, and provide
> all the light one could want.
>
> Having said that, I find fluorescent lighting to be glaring regardless
> of the tubes employed, providing an unnatural setting, and use them
> only when absolutely necessary as over the sink, for instance: I much
> prefer the home-like atmosphere of 110v lamps.
>
> Canoli
>
>
Clark Martin
Clark.
"Steve Vallancourt" <steve...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:103it95...@corp.supernews.com...
Bob Giddings
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:25:18 -0500, "Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
>Canoli, that's a very good point about the glaring. I planned to install
Wade
"Bob Giddings" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:0j8k30hvf5h17kt1u...@4ax.com...
> For reading you want halogen spots. There is nothing better.
>
>
Myself I find either one by itself unsatisfactory, however in combination
you will have much better reading light, halogen by itself is to harsh and
fluorescent can be irritating.
Wade
Steve Vallancourt
"GBinNC" wrote
> Maybe someone who has been emotionally affected by being called a
> "goofy name"?
> (You may not have been here when the "goofy name" thing was going
> around. Were you?)
I was away from this group when the "goofy name" episodes were happening,
but just did a search and got up to speed. Once again, it appears that there
was much ado about nothing, but I'm not surprised by his reactions -
"normal" for that subject.
You may be onto something, GB. It would be interesting to see if that is
what triggers strange and irrational behavior such as calling one's self a
Doctor, trying to pass off a bald faced lie as a "joke", or the incomparable
stalking method of making an unsolicited, unwanted phone call to another NG
participant at home to further carry on an argument on a more personal
level. I suppose time will bear out the results of this research. The only
problem would be finding someone that really cared about it...
Steve
Brian Elfert
>For reading you want halogen spots. There is nothing better.
From a energy usage perspective, halogen is the worst. Much of the energy
is converted to heat instead of light.
It is very clean bright light.
Brian Elfert
db
I have them hard wired on my boat. They work great.
http://www.electronicsoutpost.com/vec129.htm
db
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
GBinNC
<steve...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I suppose time will bear out the results of this research. The only
>problem would be finding someone that really cared about it...
Uh -- cared about *what*? <g>
GB in NC
Q
You can buy a 70 watt Vector inverter that is 90% efficient for about $14.00
at Walmart. I've checked the efficiency myself with my trusty Fluke. One of
those tiny inverters can run 3 to 6 compact fluorescent lights depending on
the wattage you choose. So, an inverter for $14, a compact fluorescent bulb
for $5, and a fixture of your choice gives you an efficient and reliable set
up that will last for years.
Q
"Ralph E Lindberg" <n7...@callsign.net> wrote in message
news:n7bsn-C08AE4....@news.fu-berlin.de...
Steve Vallancourt
"GBinNC" wrote
> Uh -- cared about *what*? <g>
>
> GB in NC
You got it!
Steve
Bob Giddings
You may be using the wrong halogen bulbs. They come with a variety of
lenses that diffuse the light to varying degrees. It took me a couple
of tries to find the right ones for comfortable reading. The really
tight spots are narrow and harsh, though good for something like tying
flies, or fixing your glasses. Some of the area lighting lenses are
too dispersed, much like fluorescent. There is a middle one that is
just right at a distance of 3 feet, throwing a beam about as wide as
my chair. The one in my lamp is the bi-pin 20W Satco MR16 Flood
(S1966).
Good light is getting more and more important. I just had to have my
glasses replaced again. That's twice this year. Sigh. Trying to
replace the nosepads, I managed to send a screwdriver skittering
across the lens. Skkrriiiitchhh. Even hardened glass won't stand up
to that, let alone plastic.
It's hard to fix your own glasses when you need glasses to get a fix
on what you are doing. I think this may be one of those things I quit
doing for myself, like changing the oil. The list is growing.... :o(
Bob
Carl A.
>
> You may be onto something, GB. It would be interesting to see if that is
> what triggers strange and irrational behavior such as calling one's self a
> Doctor, trying to pass off a bald faced lie as a "joke", or the
incomparable
> stalking method of making an unsolicited, unwanted phone call to another
NG
> participant at home to further carry on an argument on a more personal
> level. I suppose time will bear out the results of this research. The only
> problem would be finding someone that really cared about it...
>
> Steve
Please! I'd rather have 20 OT political threads than another one of the
interminable Osborn/GB exchanges that invariably and predictably end with
GB's brilliant "Yawn!"
--
Carl A. in FL
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
GBinNC
wrote:
>Please! I'd rather have 20 OT political threads than another one of the
>interminable Osborn/GB exchanges that invariably and predictably end with
>GB's brilliant "Yawn!"
What? You don't know how to filter?
GB in NC
Alan Balmer
<n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <c1cul3$1grdn8$1...@ID-166280.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> "Q" <qdm...@access4less.net> wrote:
>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> You are entitled to your opinion.
>>
>> I've lived off grid for over 15 years and have used dozens of types of 12V
>> fluorescent lights and inverters. Perhaps if you use a thinlight only
>> occasionally it will last acceptably long, but in daily use they don't hold
>> up. Also, it's been about 20 years since the old 50% efficient inverters
>> have been in common use. I've used a few of those old Triplite inverters
>> myself. A typical high frequency inverter is close to 90% efficient.
>>
>> Q
>>
> Ya, right, That might be your theory, but 1000's of hours per-year
>isn't "light", nor are the inverters "close" to 90%, the ones that are
>good, cost lots of money (here's a hint, I'm an EE and work in the
>marine-industry, where we use both)
Nevertheless, the very inexpensive Vector VEC024 (400W continuous)
inverter sold by Sam's Club is speced at 90% efficiency. This is
probably at maximum load. No-load draw is 0.4A.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerc...@att.net
Carl A.
As I've posted before, I filter only on guns, abortion, religion, and
(lately) Wal-Mart. I also filter total idiots.
Yofuri
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:05:03 GMT, "Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bob Giddings" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:0j8k30hvf5h17kt1u...@4ax.com...
> Good light is getting more and more important. I just had to have my
> glasses replaced again. That's twice this year. Sigh. Trying to
> replace the nosepads, I managed to send a screwdriver skittering
> across the lens. Skkrriiiitchhh. Even hardened glass won't stand up
> to that, let alone plastic.
>
> It's hard to fix your own glasses when you need glasses to get a fix
> on what you are doing. I think this may be one of those things I quit
> doing for myself, like changing the oil. The list is growing.... :o(
>
>
> Bob
> www.arcatapet.net/bobgiddings
>
> Current email at:
> bobgiddings0 at yahoo dot com
Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and check the headband magnifiers at the top
of Page 2114.
They've kept me able to do small work for the last 15 tears.
Rick
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Tex Houston
"Yofuri" <yof...@oakharbor.net> wrote in message
news:403a90c0$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> "Bob Giddings" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and check the headband magnifiers at the top
> of Page 2114.
>
> They've kept me able to do small work for the last 15 tears.
>
> Rick
Freudian slip with the '15 tears'?
Tex
Ralph Lindberg
Alan Balmer <alba...@att.net> wrote:
...
>
> Nevertheless, the very inexpensive Vector VEC024 (400W continuous)
> inverter sold by Sam's Club is speced at 90% efficiency. This is
> probably at maximum load. No-load draw is 0.4A.
While that is the spec, have you measured one?
The last time we did, it wasn't nearly as impressive. If you drop the
load off 100%, the efficiency drops way off. Let's say you are loading
it at 20W (typical lighting), the efficiency is typically less then 50%
--
Personal email n7...@amsat.org (@callsign.net's a SPAM trap)
Ralph Lindberg
"Q" <qdm...@access4less.net> wrote:
> Ralph,
>
> You can buy a 70 watt Vector inverter that is 90% efficient for about $14.00
> at Walmart. I've checked the efficiency myself with my trusty Fluke. One of
> those tiny inverters can run 3 to 6 compact fluorescent lights depending on
> the wattage you choose. So, an inverter for $14, a compact fluorescent bulb
> for $5, and a fixture of your choice gives you an efficient and reliable set
> up that will last for years.
>
Pray, how did you measure the PF with a Fluke, or did you just assume
that the load is resistive. For that matter, how did you measure the AC
current? (only my most expensive meter measures AC current).
Did you measure it at full-load? or just with one bulb (here's a hint,
try it)
Jon Porter
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:11:36 GMT, "D.J. Osborn"
> <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote:
>
> >I've had several Thinlite (not the spelling)
>
> Okay, so what *is* the spelling?
<g>
Me thinks that he should not have notted it, he should have noted it.
(fun with typogooficals)
Clark Martin
well as some other unrelated stuff.
I have a new question. One or more of you have suggested that a simple
solution would be to buy an inverter, then plug in 120V compact
fluorescents. Sounds like a simple and workable solution. But will this
still save energy over 12v incandescent lighting? A new component has been
introduced here - the inverter. Does it's presence in the overall circuit
have an impact on the current draw?
RK
"Carl A." <cha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1e0jh$1fv1f5$2...@ID-85585.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> As I've posted before, I filter only on guns, abortion, religion,
and
> (lately) Wal-Mart. I also filter total idiots.
> --
> Carl A. in FL
> Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
> http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
>
So you can't see GB's posts. <G>
RK
Ralph Lindberg
> My, this subject had generated a lot of feedback about my initial query as
> well as some other unrelated stuff.
>
> I have a new question. One or more of you have suggested that a simple
> solution would be to buy an inverter, then plug in 120V compact
> fluorescents. Sounds like a simple and workable solution. But will this
> still save energy over 12v incandescent lighting? A new component has been
> introduced here - the inverter. Does it's presence in the overall circuit
> have an impact on the current draw?
>
Inverters don't come free.
Let's say you are loading a 400w inverter at 20W, the power consumption,
just run the inverter is between 5 and 10 watts, then there is the
conversion efficiency, by the time you are done you are losing about 20W.
Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Of course if you run the inverter -harder-, the over all conversion
efficiency does go up. But then again, how does that conserve the battery?
--
-----
Ralph Lindberg N7BSN n7...@amsat.org
RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/
Cry bother and loose the Pooh's of War
Randy & Cheyanne
for them?
Carl A.
"RK" <R...@noattbi.net> wrote in message
news:JtJ_b.113312$jk2.502644@attbi_s53...
That was uncalled for. While GB and I may disagree on a few issues, I
greatly respect his (usually) unfailing courtesy and I share his love for
the English language. I would never dream of filtering him. We enjoy
yanking each other's chain now and then. He hates my political posts
intensely and I compensate by poking fun at his sanctimonious excursions
into improving the NG -- but it's all done in fun.
The "Idiot" filter is reserved for the likes of Cass and Wade.
Q
Will an inverter/CF system save energy over a 12V incandescent system? It
depends.
I just measured the no load current draw on my little $14 Vector 70W
inverter. Measurements are made with a good Fluke meter in series with the
12V circuit.
Powered up with no load = .23A
With 7 watt CF bulb = .73A
With 21 watt CF bulb = 1.6A
Q
"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:H9J_b.10525$Mo4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Alan Balmer
wrote:
>My, this subject had generated a lot of feedback about my initial query as
>well as some other unrelated stuff.
>
>I have a new question. One or more of you have suggested that a simple
>solution would be to buy an inverter, then plug in 120V compact
>fluorescents. Sounds like a simple and workable solution. But will this
>still save energy over 12v incandescent lighting? A new component has been
>introduced here - the inverter. Does it's presence in the overall circuit
>have an impact on the current draw?
Of course it does. That's what we've been referring to when we talk
about efficiency. Modern inverters are quite efficient, but it varies
with the design and the loading. You expect better efficiency near the
load limits. As Ralph pointed out, running a 20W bulb with a 400W
inverter probably won't be very efficient. The inverter is using
nearly 5W at idle, doing nothing.
As far as that goes, I don't know what the efficiency of 12V
fluorescents is anyway. You can't actually fire a tube directly with
12VDC <g>. Does a 20W, 12V produce the same amount of light as a 20W
120V? Another factor for the calculation.
>
>"Clark Martin" <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:OKVZb.14590$w65.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> My travel trailer has 12-volt incandescent lights installed. It occurred
>to
>> me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light fixtures,
>> I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last longer when
>we
>> are dry-camping.
>>
>> I haven't had much luck in finding this type of light. Actually that's
>not
>> true. I can buy a fixture at an RV dealer for about $85 CDN. That's too
>> expensive - if I can't rig up something cheap (say up to $40) I won't
>> bother doing anything.
>>
>> Any of you got any ideas about this? Are there 12-volt Fluorescent tubes
>> available? If anybody knows where I can buy something inexpensive please
>> let me know. It would be a bonus if I could purchase in Toronto, Ontario.
>>
>> Thanks, Clark
>>
>>
>
--
bill horne
>
> As far as that goes, I don't know what the efficiency of 12V
> fluorescents is anyway. You can't actually fire a tube directly with
> 12VDC <g>. Does a 20W, 12V produce the same amount of light as a 20W
> 120V? Another factor for the calculation.
> Al Balmer
The only important question to me is what is the current draw on a 12V
battery of an incandescent and of a flourescent of the same lumen
output? Or to put it another way, for a given desired level of light,
which will draw less current from the battery?
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
GBinNC
wrote:
And you shoujld [sic] get a sense of humor. I was poking fun, and I
have no doubt that Carl knew that.
(BTW, have you EVER posted anything related to RVing here?)
GB in NC
Neon John
and I bet I know more about testing them than you do - in recent times and
I've yet to find one that is as bad as 90%. The efficiency is almost
independent of load when the load is >10% or so.
The reasons are many. The modern architecture. The modern CMOS components.
Modern design techniques.
Let's take a look at the Vector 1kw inverter that I currently have on my
bench, testing for long term durability. The architecture is thus:
(12v to 180vdc inverter) -> (high voltage storage) - > (power FET 60 hz driven
choppers [several parallel stages]) -> LC high pass filter -> 120VAC outlet.
First the inverter. Where the heavy lifting is done. It uses multiple
parallel power MOS-FETs to reduce the on resistance to minimize loss. It also
uses more FETs as synchronous rectifiers. SRs avoid the 0.2 to 1 volt drop
see across conventional rectifiers. The switching frequency is high - 40khz -
to further minimize losses and reduce the size of the components.
The inverter's overall efficiency is remarkably improved at less than full
load with a simple feature - the DC/DC inverter does not run all the time. It
is switched on and off, with fairly high hysteresis, to maintain a setpoint
voltage on the energy storage caps. All easy to do, given processors that cost
35 cents a pop in quantity.
The high voltage storage consists of multiple aluminum electrolytic caps.
This is actually a weak point with this particular design. The caps
apparently have a fairly high ESR and/or dissipation factor, as they get very
warm during full load operation.
The output stage is again several power FETs in parallel for each polarity of
the 60 hz output. The standard stair-step waveform is used to synthesize to
some degree, a sine wave. The "sustain" vs "peak" duration ratio is varied
according to load to keep the RMS value near 120 volts and to maximize
efficiency.
Because of the DC/DC inverter's switching on and off at a fairly slow rate,
probably 2-5 hz, measuring the efficiency of one of these critters is a bit
more complicated. Driving the inverter from a DC power supply or
battery/charger combo requires data logging and averaging to determine the
true input power. I used that method in the beginning, using my National
Instruments datalogger.
After I acquired a 7 farad, 15 volt capacitor, the testing got much simpler.
The cap is large enough to smooth the input draw, at least for 1000 watt class
inverters. Simple DC instruments can then serve.
On the output I use only bench grade (5.5 and 6.5 digit Fluke and Keithley)
meters with data logging (IEEE-488) and lab quality F.W. Bell transducers.
The results agree quite favorably with old fashioned analog (iron vane or
electrodynamic) lab instruments that I own. With datalogging, I don't have to
stand there and write down the numbers. The results also agree very well with
that of an old-fashioned rotating disc power meter.
Without taking a walk to my lab to fetch my notebook, something I won't do for
a pissin' contest like this, I can recall some interesting numbers. The
efficiency remains >90% until the load drops to <20 watts. With no load
applied, the inverter draws an AVERAGE of about 15 ma. The Vector spec is 30
ma, if I recall correctly. That it does, but only when the DC/DC inverter is
topping off the energy storage caps.
Another remarkable little inverter is the Vector 70 watt unit built into an
oversized cigarette lighter plug. Here:
http://tinyurl.com/5zhg
I have probably half a dozen of these little inverters. When I first ran one
through my lab I wasn't terribly impressed. Full load efficiency <80%. Then
I realized why. The crappy cigarette lighter plug was getting quite warm,
indicating a good deal of wasted energy. I opened the unit up and soldered
wires directly to the inverter board. The efficiency was then what I
expected, >95%. So little heat produced that the case barely gets warm.
Back to the original question, my suggestion would be similar to "Q". Use
compact fluorescent lamps where practical and conventional fluorescents,
preferably with electronic ballasts, elsewhere. Instead of one inverter, I'd
use numerous of those little vector inverters, one on each switched circuit.
That way there is zero no-load loss.
Awhile back I bought one of these Thin-lights to evaluate:
http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=6083
I'll have to say that I was impressed. The inverter design is extremely
clever and appears to be of conservative design. I had a couple of problems
that kept me from buying any more. One is the cost. I just can't see $40 for
a 20 watt fixture (they claim 30 watts but that is incorrect.) Two is the
color temperature of the light. They only come in cool white which has a blue
cast and to me, at least, makes the RV interior feel like a hospital room.
Warm white, or even better, incandescent white (about 2000degK color
temperature) tubes are available but not from Thin-light.
One of the main reasons CFs have been so well accepted is that the phosphor
used duplicates the color spectrum of incandescent lights. The light is
familiar and warm. People give no thought that they're now using a
"fluorescent lamp". CFs work equally well in an RV where there is space to use
a conventional fixture.
The cost advantage is large. That little 70 watt inverter is $20 from
Northern. I've seen them for $16 and change at WallyWorld. It can easily
drive 4 15 watt CFs. That would be $4 per lamp. I can get CF lights at Sam's
for $19 for 5 of them. That's about $4 each. That would be $8 per lamp
total. Plus the cost of a fixture if necessary.
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:11:42 -0800, Ralph Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <ilvk30t2frpkpvtrm...@4ax.com>,
> Alan Balmer <alba...@att.net> wrote:
>
>...
>>
>> Nevertheless, the very inexpensive Vector VEC024 (400W continuous)
>> inverter sold by Sam's Club is speced at 90% efficiency. This is
>> probably at maximum load. No-load draw is 0.4A.
>
>While that is the spec, have you measured one?
>
>The last time we did, it wasn't nearly as impressive. If you drop the
>load off 100%, the efficiency drops way off. Let's say you are loading
>it at 20W (typical lighting), the efficiency is typically less then 50%
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Carl A.
>
> And you shoujld [sic] get a sense of humor. I was poking fun, and I
> have no doubt that Carl knew that.
He did, even without the <g>s.
Especially after I read "Humor for Dummies" by David Osborn.
Perry Noid
> But will this
> still save energy over 12v incandescent lighting? A new component has been
> introduced here - the inverter. Does it's presence in the overall circuit
> have an impact on the current draw?
Get a multimeter! :o) so you can measure and =know= exactly how much
power things really draw, and how much dimming the screen on your laptop
really helps :o/ one that measures at least 10 amps (200mA is .2 amps).
Here's one that measures up to 20 amps for $30 and with an audible
continuity test (tests for closed circuit), plus temperature and
frequency measurements! It's not auto ranging, but I dare anybody to
find a better deal than this on a multimeter!:
http://www.electronickits.com/gold/dt5808.htm
Here's a few things i've measured so far (AC volts)
AMPS X VOLTS = WATTS
Power Draw at 120 volts AC
--------------------------
Vacuum cleaner 8.2 amps
Sanyo TV 27 inch 0.6 amps
SatelliteTVReciever 0.07 amps
Mitsubishi VCR 0.06 amps
Sangean radio 0.02 amps
Samson Juicer 1.0 amps
12 inch fan 0.18 amps, 0.21 amps, 0.26 amps
15in flatscrn monitor 0.11 amps (AC)
Evaporative cooler 4.0 amps, 5.5 amps
Mac G4 Computer` 0.55 amps, 0.07 when off
Powerbook 0.13 amps, .08 dimmed, 0.01 off
(powerbook) 0.13 amps charging&off, 0.24 charging&on
HDinNY
> I see where bill horne <red...@rye.net> contributed:
>
>
>>The only important question to me is what is the current draw on a 12V
>>battery of an incandescent and of a flourescent of the same lumen
>>output? Or to put it another way, for a given desired level of light,
>>which will draw less current from the battery?
>
>
> Sounds like another experiment is needed. Let's see - how to measure
> lumens in my basement?
>
> Will Sill
>
First get a bottle of oil and a nail...
HD in FL
Yofuri
meter capability is "True RMS". They measure the DC equivalent of an AC
current.
If you find a multimeter with True RMS capability for $29.95, you've found a
real keeper!
Rick
"Perry Noid" <nob...@nowheres.com> wrote in message
news:42aa83598f66db63...@news.teranews.com...
> Clark Martin <hp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > But will this
> > still save energy over 12v incandescent lighting? A new component has
been
> > introduced here - the inverter. Does it's presence in the overall
circuit
> > have an impact on the current draw?
>
> Get a multimeter! :o) so you can measure and =know= exactly how much
> power things really draw, and how much dimming the screen on your laptop
> really helps :o/ one that measures at least 10 amps (200mA is .2 amps).
> Here's one that measures up to 20 amps for $30 and with an audible
> continuity test (tests for closed circuit), plus temperature and
> frequency measurements! It's not auto ranging, but I dare anybody to
> find a better deal than this on a multimeter!:
>
> http://www.electronickits.com/gold/dt5808.htm
>
<snip>
Q
measuring the DC side of the circuit you don't need a true RMS meter. If you
want to measure the ac output voltage of an inverter you need the expensive
one.
Q
"Yofuri" <yof...@oakharbor.net> wrote in message
news:403cecb4$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Blue
You seem more than a little above a focused technician.
Why are you doing such in depth investigation?
How did you get so into electronics?
Most of us are still trying to find the shortest way to the pissoir.
Blue
Jordan Hazen
dave martin <dma...@newarts.com> wrote:
><snip>
>
>Walmart sells a 12V fluorescent fixture (for about $8 as I recall.)
>
>It is designed to take 8 batteries but also has a connector for an
>external 12V power supply. Ignore the batteries and wire it into your
>12v system.
I had the same thought, and used two of those cheap Walmart lamps in a
hardwired setup for a few months. Unfortunately, they didn't last very
long. The ballast circuit in each one failed after only about 200
hours' service, emitting acrid-smelling smoke in the process and frying
its fluorescent tube.
Both of them smoked after a few hours' run time, so it's probably a
thermal issue. The circuit board is mounted in such a way that it gets
no real ventilation. When running on AA's, the batteries would probably
give out before heat buildup became a problem.
Could be a voltage sensitivity issue as well, although neither fixture
ever saw more than ~13.5V at its DC-in jack.
--
Jordan.
Neon John
"The Joy of Finding Things Out". Both the title and the contents will explain
it perfectly.
John
---
ron doctors
> My travel trailer has 12-volt incandescent lights installed. It occurred to
> me that if I switched some of these to 12-volt Fluorescent light fixtures,
> I would reduce power consumption and my batteries would last longer when we
> are dry-camping.
>
> I haven't had much luck in finding this type of light. Actually that's not
> true. I can buy a fixture at an RV dealer for about $85 CDN. That's too
> expensive - if I can't rig up something cheap (say up to $40) I won't
> bother doing anything.
>
> Any of you got any ideas about this? Are there 12-volt Fluorescent tubes
> available? If anybody knows where I can buy something inexpensive please
> let me know. It would be a bonus if I could purchase in Toronto, Ontario.
>
> Thanks, Clark
I have used the Thinline and they work OK , they do get very hot and I
worry about safety in spite of their UL labelling, not a very efficent
design but the light/watt is better than the tungsten auto bulbs. In
the near future you will be able to get white LED lights that should
be much better than anything available now.. Just wait a year or even
maybe less.. Do search under white LEDs . I have put some in my RV for
night lights as they consume almost nothing 20mA
that is only 0.02A!! Plenty of light for the bathroom etc..
MR
>I have used the Thinline and they work OK , they do get very hot and I
>worry about safety in spite of their UL labelling, not a very efficent
>design but the light/watt is better than the tungsten auto bulbs. In
>the near future you will be able to get white LED lights that should
>be much better than anything available now.. Just wait a year or even
>maybe less.. Do search under white LEDs . I have put some in my RV for
>night lights as they consume almost nothing 20mA
>that is only 0.02A!! Plenty of light for the bathroom etc..
After reading your post I did a search and read up on the white led's
and price them at one site. They are very expensive now and wondered
if you have some knowledge about the price falling more inline with
conventional florescent bulbs in the near future.
TIA
MR
Ralph Lindberg
>
> After reading your post I did a search and read up on the white led's
> and price them at one site. They are very expensive now and wondered
> if you have some knowledge about the price falling more inline with
> conventional florescent bulbs in the near future.
>
Don't hold your breath, it ain't going to be soon (I use red LEDs as a
nightlight)
ron doctors
White LEDs are about $2.00 each and you need only one for a night
light.
The higher power ones are more expensive than fluorescent tube lamps
and also not as efficent. However most ligthing in RV's can be lower
in power especially lights used for reading etc. A 3 or 4 LED array
would be fine and the power would be under 1 watt !
ron..
Alan Balmer
>White LEDs are about $2.00 each and you need only one for a night
>light.
>The higher power ones are more expensive than fluorescent tube lamps
>and also not as efficent. However most ligthing in RV's can be lower
>in power especially lights used for reading etc. A 3 or 4 LED array
>would be fine and the power would be under 1 watt !
So how does that make them less efficient than fluorescents? I've
never seen a fluorescent under 1 watt, but I doubt you could read by
it <g>.
Or did you mean "and also not as efficient as lower power LEDs"?