$30M refrigerator design prize won by Whirlpool
Gregory P Dubois
" Cool $30 million
" ----------------
"
" What could be the world's largest prize -- a cool $30 million -- has
" been won by a refrigerator designed by Whirlpool, a company based in
" Michigan. In July last year, in an attempt to reduce demand for
" electricity, a group of power companies offered the prize to the first
" company to build a prototype fridge that would use at least 25 per cent
" less electricity than current standards demand while using no ozone-
" depleting CFCs.
"
" Whirlpool is not saying much about the design of its novel fridge, but
" its features include better insulation and a computer that controls
" defrosting. The company will collect the prize piecemeal -- about $10
" for each fridge sold once the design reaches the market next year.
In spite of Whirlpool's reticence, it would be nice to know a little
more about this device -- in particular, what coolant it uses and, if the
insulation is foam, what the blowing agent is.
Also, of course, it would be good to know the expected retail price of
devices using this technology. Perhaps someone in the US will have ready
access to further information.
Several German manufacturers, possibly having been egged on by the
collaborative Greenfreeze project of Greenpeace and DKK, are introducing
refrigerators using hydrocarbons as coolants and as foam-blowing agents.
It will be interesting to see whether American companies go this route
or the HFC/HCFC route.
Gregory Dubois (dub...@ox.ac.uk)
Don T. Borowski
: From the 10 July 1993 New Scientist, p. 11:
Remember, this is a US manufacturer, living in the land of lawyers.
If a hydrocarbon-using-refrigerator EVER caused a fire or explosion,
or was suspected of causing a fire or explosion, thus killing someone's
cat, the manufacturer would be sued out of existance.
Donald Borowski WA6OMI Hewlett-Packard, Spokane Division
"Angels are able to fly because they take themselves so lightly."
-G.K. Chesterton
John McCarthy
refrigerator is. When companies are designing for the market, they
make what they think is the most attractive to consumers package,
compromising the various desiderata. When they are designing to a
specification, they will ignore aspects not included in the
specification. If Whirlpool's refrigerator is unacceptably noisy,
they will pocket the prize but not try to actually sell the
refrigerator.
Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
it was economical of energy.
Can someone enlighten us about the tradeoff between noise and
economy in refrigerators? In cars, the big ones are quiet but
not economical.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Jon Kimbrough
The time has come (once again :-( ) for me to show my ignorance! I understand
the reasons for wanting to reduce/eliminate CFCs. But aren't we also trying
very hard to eliminate the hydrocarbon emissions from automobiles? Unless there
are "good" hydrocarbons and "bad" hydrocarbons, it seems like we're trading one
problem for another by using HFCs or HCFCs for refridgerants.
Anyone care to (gently) enlighten me?
Jon
---
Jon Kimbrough - jki...@lasc.lockheed.com
Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Company
Antonio Tello
|>
|> The time has come (once again :-( ) for me to show my ignorance! I understand
|> the reasons for wanting to reduce/eliminate CFCs. But aren't we also trying
|> very hard to eliminate the hydrocarbon emissions from automobiles? Unless there
|> are "good" hydrocarbons and "bad" hydrocarbons, it seems like we're trading one
|> problem for another by using HFCs or HCFCs for refridgerants.
|>
|> Anyone care to (gently) enlighten me?
|>
|> Jon
|> ---
|>
In this case since you are dealing with a 'closed system' the HCs are not
being burned or released into the environment. But wait you say that neither
are CFCs. The concern is for leakage and release during repair. HC emission
into the atmosphere is MUCH less damaging than CFC emission.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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relatives. Please consult your parent, guardian, lawyer and local law
enforcement ageny prior to following any advice contained above.
NOTE: I am on a Canadian node and need distribution of NA to see your
replies. E-mail to sno...@crchh777.BNR.CA.
John P. Wolf
: " Cool $30 million
: " ----------------
: "
: " What could be the world's largest prize -- a cool $30 million -- has
: " been won by a refrigerator designed by Whirlpool, a company based in
: " Michigan. In July last year, in an attempt to reduce demand for
: " electricity, a group of power companies offered the prize to the first
: " company to build a prototype fridge that would use at least 25 per cent
: " less electricity than current standards demand while using no ozone-
: " depleting CFCs.
: "
: " Whirlpool is not saying much about the design of its novel fridge, but
: " its features include better insulation and a computer that controls
: " defrosting. The company will collect the prize piecemeal -- about $10
: " for each fridge sold once the design reaches the market next year.
I heard from a refrigerator repair man that GE, which, incidently, I believe
owns Whirlpool, designed a super efficient compressor (the thing
that creates the cold air) that achieved phenomenal savings on electricity
but the pump would break down after a year of use. Needless to say, the
pump was deemed a consumer product failure and GE was said to have
wasted millions on the project (of course, the Japanese wouldn't consider
this a failure but instead a learning experience well worth the money spent).
I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?
Another interesting point the refrigerator repair man made was that the
higher the efficiency of the refrigerator, the noisier it is. It seems
the higher efficiency refrigerators have to use styrofoam for better
temperature insulation but styrofoam doesn't absorb sound as well as the
previously used fiberglass fill. Also, more efficient compressors tend
to create more noise (I don't know why this is since noise is the result
of expended energy). He said older refrigerators operate more quietly
than new ones coming out these days.
bai...@uh17524.mdc.com
> Can someone enlighten us about the tradeoff between noise and
> economy in refrigerators? In cars, the big ones are quiet but
> not economical.
From a physics point of view, noise or sound *is* energy. Wasted energy in
this case, thus lowering efficiency -- theoretically. So confusion is
understadable.
I called my Whirlpool dealer shortly after my purchase to complain about
the noise. They sent out a service tech who made some adustment, but the
noise only improved slightly. His explanation was that "some times the
more efficient fridge's are just noisier".
My speculation is that there could be a couple of causes.
One, all the sound dampening materials and pratices result in less
efficient heat transfer. Either through poor air circulation in the case
of the housing. Extra baffels and mufflers (if thats the right word) could
restrict air flow. Or poor heat transfer from the coils due to thicker tube
walls and fins. The thicker tubes and fins would have higher resonant
frequencies and be less likely to 'ring' (thats the sound my fridge makes
anyway).
The other explanation could be that the money invested into more
efficiency means less money for the other stuff like luxurious sound
proofing. Assuming that price is compairable to a quieter but less
efficient model.
____________________________________________________________________________
Lee Bailey | E-mail: bailey%ssdvax...@lbgwy.mdc.com
MDA-HB | S-mail: 12750 Centralia #221, Lakewood CA 90715
Space Station | V-mail: (310) 809-8966 home
______________|
Disclaimer: I just work here -- I don't talk shop on the net.
Don T. Borowski
: It would be interesting to know how noisy Whirlpool's prize
: refrigerator is. When companies are designing for the market, they
: make what they think is the most attractive to consumers package,
: compromising the various desiderata. When they are designing to a
: specification, they will ignore aspects not included in the
: specification. If Whirlpool's refrigerator is unacceptably noisy,
: they will pocket the prize but not try to actually sell the
: refrigerator.
:
: Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
: how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
: brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
: it was economical of energy.
:
: Can someone enlighten us about the tradeoff between noise and
: economy in refrigerators? In cars, the big ones are quiet but
: not economical.
In a car, extra weight is required to insulation, or a body on
frame design, to get the quite. This of course reduces fuel
economy.
For a refrigerator, additional material used to make it quiet will
make it more expensive, but I don't think it needs to subtract from
efficiency.
The main source of noise is the compressor, with the condensor (hot
side) fan [if any] adding some noise. The fan noise can be reduced
by using a larger diameter, but slower turning fan. You do run into
some packaging constraints, in that room used at the bottom of the
refrigerator for fans, compressors, condensor coils, defrost water
catcher pans, and defrost timers all substract from room available
for food storage.
Extra material and room could be used to improve the mounting of the
compressor so that vibration is not as well conducted. Perhaps some
extra coils of tubing, wrapped with sound insulation, could be used
to decrease vibration coupling to the condensor and evaporator coils.
And the the refrigerators I have seen, the compressor itself is just
its bare metal housing. If this we wrapped in foam, less sound would
be radiated. Leaving the compressor exposed helps cool it, but I
understand that most of the cooling is via the refrigerant anyway.
Of course, all this would add to cost, but should have little or no
effect on energy efficiency.
The "sound of economy" cited by the GE person is probably right to
some degree. I am amazed that I can buy essentially the same GE
refrigerator which I bought 15 years ago for just about the same
dollar price, which means a substantial real decrease in price during
the same time. And the energy efficiency is as good, if not better
than the one I have.
John McCarthy
energy emitted by even a very loud refrigerator is probably less than
one watt. Look at the output meter on a hifi that has one, and you
will see that you can make a very large racket very economically in
energy.
Joe Lynn
>...
>I heard from a refrigerator repair man that GE, which, incidently, I believe
>owns Whirlpool, designed a super efficient compressor (the thing
General Electric does not own Whirlpool.
GE manufactures and owns the trademarks to the appliance band names
"GE" and "Hotpoint" among others.
Joe Lynn
--
j...@genesis.mcs.com
umbra
ask the government for money, data, and equipment from the Navy's nuclear
submarine program. Too bad the information is probably own by whirlpool's
main competitor (Electric boat submarine company is a GE subsidiary). If
they can make a 88,000SHP nuclear reactor and related pumps and turbines quiet
to russian submarines and surface ships I'm sure they can figure out a simple
fridge compressor. ;-)
Bye Bye!!!!!
joe
--
(UMBRA) Black as midnight,| UMBRA (jo...@iastate.edu) and The GREAT GRENDLE
Black as Pitch, Blacker |KHAN(arg...@iastate.edu) are now your internet
than the foulest witch |presidents. Please be patient while we prepare our
-BLIX |15 point plan to make internet a cool&froody place.
Loren I. Petrich
[Complaints about a noisy refrigerator...]
That part is actually easy.
The noise comes from the motor, which can be surrounded with
insulation.
--
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/l...@s1.gov
Annette R. Tharpe
What's the problem with noise? I do not sleep in my kitchen, nor do I
relax in there to read or watch TV. If I had a dining room, I wouldn't
even eat in the kitchen. I have a Whirlpool and it makes noise (compressor,
ice maker, etc...) but it has never been a significant problem. I think
it is a fairly efficient model although I am sure there are better ones
available since I purchased mine in 1986.
I have been very pleased with all my Whirlpool appliances. I own a rental
property (condo I purchased to live in in 1986) which has all Whirlpool
appliances. In addition, I have all whirlpool appliances in my current
residence which I rent from someone else (long story...). None of them
have ever required any service (all are at least 7 years old). This
includes 2 electric ranges, 2 dishwashers, 2 refrigerators, 1 washer and 1
dryer. No, I do not work for Whirlpool...I'm just a satisfied customer.
As for the $30M prize, I heard the results of the contest on the news or
read it in the paper (I can't remember). Since I am so pleased with the
quality of my Whirlpool stuff (I shouln't have "said" that; it will all die
tomorrow:-), I was glad that they won. The story went on to say that Whirlpool
is going to use the money to help defray the costs of producing consumer models
at affordable prices. Not sure how accurate my memory is on this though. Did
anyone else see this report, on CNN perhaps?
--
/\ Annette R. Tharpe | "History, despite its wrenching pain,
/__\_____ QA Analyst | Cannot be unlived, and if faced
/ \ | SAS Institute Inc. | With courage, need not be lived again."
| sas...@unx.sas.com | -- Maya Angelou, "A Rock, A River, A Tree"
John McCarthy
sleeps and whether he spends time in an adjacent room when the house
is otherwise quiet.
Hank Roberts
I'd dearly love a pointer to a quiet refrigerator; have seen several
articles lately noting that all the "more efficient" ones are noisier
recommending things like putting sound deadening foam or carpeting on
the walls behind the fridge, etc.
Once something wihtout CFCs is available I'll buy it and give
my landlord back his groaner. Right now I've got it up on two
inch slab of dense rubber, which quiets it somewhat.
Carl M Kadie
[...]
> The noise comes from the motor, which can be surrounded with
>insulation.
[...]
Or it can be cancelled out with "antinoise".
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
= ka...@cs.uiuc.edu =
uda...@oak.cc.kcl.ac.uk
> l...@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
> [...]
>> The noise comes from the motor, which can be surrounded with
>>insulation.
> [...]
>
> Or it can be cancelled out with "antinoise".
>
I'd like to know more about antinoise.
Thanks
Frances
James W. Swonger
pressure differential within the system; higher working pressure means
a longer compressor stroke and more amplitude in the internal stresses
seen by the compressor. Both of these would result in more noise than
an older compressor designed for quiet running. Perhaps the newer models
use fewer compressor cylinders, which may make for less smooth a sound
and produce more low-frequency noise which is harder to muffle and more
annoying. A higher efficiency refrigerator will also probably have a more
aggressive cooling system fan, where many older models either did without
or used a lazy shaded-pole motor which turned pretty slowly and queitly.
--
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#
Douglas Alan Harrell
>
>What's the problem with noise? I do not sleep in my kitchen, nor do I
>relax in there to read or watch TV. If I had a dining room, I wouldn't
>even eat in the kitchen. I have a Whirlpool and it makes noise (compressor,
>ice maker, etc...) but it has never been a significant problem. I think
>it is a fairly efficient model although I am sure there are better ones
>available since I purchased mine in 1986.
>
>I have been very pleased with all my Whirlpool appliances. I own a rental
>property (condo I purchased to live in in 1986) which has all Whirlpool
>appliances. In addition, I have all whirlpool appliances in my current
>residence which I rent from someone else (long story...). None of them
>have ever required any service (all are at least 7 years old). This
>includes 2 electric ranges, 2 dishwashers, 2 refrigerators, 1 washer and 1
>dryer. No, I do not work for Whirlpool...I'm just a satisfied customer.
>
All I can say is, do you have children? My appliances, whirlpools among them,
have never been able to withstand the abuse that children can dish out.
Also, my family spends a good deal of time in the kitchen, since we have an
eat-in kitchen, and even my older model refrigerator sometimes makes
conversation difficult, so I turn the defrost timer ahead until the refrig
goes off so we can have 20 minutes of peace and quiet. When I finish school
and can think about buying new appliances again, quietness will be a major
factor for me. I worry about the reliability, though, because experience has
shown me that a reonditioned 20 year old frig ( made with lots o' steel, just
like the cars) has lasted me longer than the newer models. Someone in another
article mentioned a one-year compressor motor failure time? Ug.
Douglas Alan Harrell
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: gt0...@prism.gatech.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This probably got screwed up, but hey, I'm an NE, not a CompE, so sue me!
My opinions aren't Georgia Tech's, but they should be...
I did this instead of doing my homework...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John De Armond
>I am almost sure that they did NOT use a hydrocarbon for the refrigerant.
>Remember, this is a US manufacturer, living in the land of lawyers.
>If a hydrocarbon-using-refrigerator EVER caused a fire or explosion,
>or was suspected of causing a fire or explosion, thus killing someone's
>cat, the manufacturer would be sued out of existance.
Actually the refrigerator industry has been lobbying very heavily to get
UL to approve a hydrocarbon-based refrigerant. I haven't read the literature
in a couple of months but back then hydrocarbon refrigerants were getting
top billing in the refrigeration trade rags. The quantity involved is
tiny, typically on the order of a butane lighter or two. There literally
is as much oil in a household 'frig as there is refrigerant. Whether this
'frig uses hydrocarbons is unknown. My guess: The use of a microprocessor
to monitor the cabinet humidity and defrost the coils and walls only when
needed accounts for the energy savings while the refrigerant is either
hydrocarbon or R-134a. I'd bet on hydrocarbon because of its greater
efficiency. I suspect the only innovation is in the use of electronics.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC | (Pardon the inconvenience while we
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | remodel this .signature)
Marietta, Ga |
j...@dixie.com |
Tino
>When I finish school
>and can think about buying new appliances again, quietness will be a major
>factor for me. I worry about the reliability, though, because experience has
>shown me that a reonditioned 20 year old frig ( made with lots o' steel, just
>like the cars) has lasted me longer than the newer models. Someone in another
>article mentioned a one-year compressor motor failure time? Ug.
That is, until that old fridge needs a recharge and it can't be done.
Consumers are losing both ways.
Tino
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hundreds of millions of people will soon perish in smog disasters in New York
and Los Angeles...the oceans will die of DDT poisoning by 1979...the U.S. life
expectancy will drop to 42 years by 1980 due to cancer epidemics." - Paul Ehrlich, 1969
Don T. Borowski
[stuff deleted]
: I heard from a refrigerator repair man that GE, which, incidently, I believe
: owns Whirlpool, designed a super efficient compressor (the thing
: that creates the cold air) that achieved phenomenal savings on electricity
: but the pump would break down after a year of use. Needless to say, the
: pump was deemed a consumer product failure and GE was said to have
: wasted millions on the project (of course, the Japanese wouldn't consider
: this a failure but instead a learning experience well worth the money spent).
: I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?
As a previous poster has stated, Whirlpool is not owned by GE.
The compressor refered to here is a rotary compressor, designed by GE for
a new model refrigerator which went on the market in 1986. Although the
compressor was a bit more efficient, the main reason for its development
was an attempt to reduce cost. In the end, it cost GE nearly a half
billion dollars, when they had to replace them with conventional piston
type compressors.
There was a good write-up of the whole thing in the 7 May 1990 issue of
the Wall Street Journal, on the front page no less.
Don T. Borowski
: I figure higher efficiency means higher refrigerant temperature and
: a longer compressor stroke and more amplitude in the internal stresses
: seen by the compressor. Both of these would result in more noise than
: an older compressor designed for quiet running. Perhaps the newer models
: use fewer compressor cylinders, which may make for less smooth a sound
: and produce more low-frequency noise which is harder to muffle and more
: annoying. A higher efficiency refrigerator will also probably have a more
: aggressive cooling system fan, where many older models either did without
: or used a lazy shaded-pole motor which turned pretty slowly and queitly.
The compressors in domestic refrigerators have always been single
cylinder types, so far as I know.
Carl J Lydick
=
=[...]
=> The noise comes from the motor, which can be surrounded with
=>insulation.
=[...]
=
=Or it can be cancelled out with "antinoise".
Which is effective only for certain geometries, and even then can't generally
cancel noise everywhere. For something like a refrigerator compressor, it's
not likely that "antinoise" would be very effective.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CA...@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Gadfly
> Actually the refrigerator industry has been lobbying very heavily to get
> UL to approve a hydrocarbon-based refrigerant. I haven't read the literature
> in a couple of months but back then hydrocarbon refrigerants were getting
> top billing in the refrigeration trade rags. The quantity involved is
> tiny, typically on the order of a butane lighter or two. There literally
> is as much oil in a household 'frig as there is refrigerant. Whether this
> 'frig uses hydrocarbons is unknown. My guess: The use of a microprocessor
> to monitor the cabinet humidity and defrost the coils and walls only when
> needed accounts for the energy savings while the refrigerant is either
> hydrocarbon or R-134a. I'd bet on hydrocarbon because of its greater
> efficiency. I suspect the only innovation is in the use of electronics.
John, could you say more about hydrocarbon-based refrigerants? I'm told
(my spies are everywhere) that at one time you came up with a very
workable design for automotive air conditioning using HC-based working fluid.
I suspect that the name conjures visions of the Hindenburg--or the Pinto.
Is the primary obstacle fear?
*** ***
Ken Perlow ***** *****
09 Jul 93 ****** ****** 21 Messidor An CCI
***** ***** gad...@ihspc.att.com
** ** ** **
...L'AUDACE! *** *** TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE! ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
Daniel A Ashlock
McCarthy) writes:
> Whether the noise bothers the refrigerator owner depends on where he
> sleeps and whether he spends time in an adjacent room when the house
> is otherwise quiet.
> --
A couple of years back I saw a good deal of hoo-haw in places like
Popular Science (I have low tastes) about a chip-and-louspeaker active
noise supression for, among other things, refrigerators. As Prof.
McCarthy observes elsewhere, generating sound is cheap in energy and,
as long as they don't hook a monitor to it :-), microchips don't use
much power.
What happened to these things? Was P.S. overselling again?
Jim Jones
>relax in there to read or watch TV. If I had a dining room, I wouldn't
>even eat in the kitchen. I have a Whirlpool and it makes noise (compressor,
>ice maker, etc...) but it has never been a significant problem. I think
>it is a fairly efficient model although I am sure there are better ones
>available since I purchased mine in 1986.
My last apartment was a small but nice 1-bedroom with an L-shaped
combination kitchen/living room. The refrigerator hookup was right at the
angle of the "L." Thus you could hear the refrigerator (a newish
Whirlpool) clearly everywhere in the living room and almost as clearly
in the bedroom, if the door was open. There were no carpets, only hardwood
floor, so the sound tended to bounce all through the house.
I nicknamed the refrigerator "Airwolf" because at intervals during
auto-defrost it would howl briefly like the jet helicopter in the old
"Airwolf" TV series. I found it amusing, and refrigerator noise in general
is low enough for most of us to file it under background noise and ignore
it -- except when it howled. Some of my overnight guests had a little
trouble getting used to that.
All this goes to say that:
1) If your apartment is small enough, you _do_ live in your kitchen -- or
close enough that it doesn't matter.
2) One man's background noise is another man's nuisance. Nobody should
really have to "get used to" the sound of an appliance that's on _all the
time._ The manufacturers should do more work on the noise issue.
Charles R. Sullivan
There is one kind of refrigeration system that both uses no CFCs,
and can be totally silent. Peltier effect refrigeration uses solid
state devices, sort of like thermocouples run in reverse, to get cooling
with no moving parts. This tends to be expensive, and is generally only
considered practical for small applications, where the complexity of a
compressor and fluid system would be expensive anyway. I don't know of
anyone making a full size fridge with them, but there are ``iceless
coolers'' that you plug into a cigarette lighter in a car. I don't
know what efficiency they achieve, or whether they have fans, but I
imagine they are *much* quieter than compressor systems even
if they do have fans. Once source
for these is Real Goods. I don't have their phone number here,
but 800-555-1212 should be able to give you it.
Charlie Sullivan char...@power.berkeley.edu
Chris Yoder
refrigerator in this discusion. I've seen it in the Real Goods catalogue.
The basic concept with the Sun Frost is to put the compressor on top of the
fridge, to use lots of insulation, and to keep the refrigerator and freezer
compartments separate so that air doesn't circulate between the two. It
supposedly is very efficient and doesn't have the problem of "freezer burn".
They come in both 12 volt DC and 120 volt AC models.
On the down side, the Sun Frost is not frost-free and the units are quite
expensive (this probably has something to do with the small size of the
company).
Sort of neutral is that the food compartment goes to within 2-3 inches of the
bottom of the unit. They sell a cabinate to put the fridge on to raise it up.
I wonder how similar this design is to the new Whirlpool fridge.
-- Chris Yoder
UCI...@CIS.Unocal.Com
Mark Crafts
>cancel noise everywhere. For something like a refrigerator compressor, it's
>not likely that "antinoise" would be very effective.
On the contrary (IMO). I would think that a refrigerator motor would be
the ideal candidate for anti-noise type suppression.
It's a small rythmic, easily contained sound source. I think a speaker
in the right place would do a dandy job of sound suppression for a
fridge motor.
Mark
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Mark Crafts :: mcr...@dale.ksc.nasa.gov
Harris Space Systems :: Melbourne, FL
Chris G. vanHasselt
is the placement of the compressor at the bottom of the fridge, rather
than on top. I have no clue why this would be so, but I've seen this
enough to at least be willing to accept it on faith. Plus, most
commercial fridges and industrial type fridges seem to have the
compressors on top.
So, any expert care to enlighten me on why this is so?
Thanks
Chris van Hasselt
chr...@med.unc.edu
Chris G. vanHasselt
blood/urine samples in four freezers. To keep the samples sufficiently
frozen so that they can be studied even years from now, they must stay at
a constant -80 degrees C (I think C, although I can't be totally sure -
one of those things I don't pay attention to.) These fridges could keep
your beer nice and cold, without a doubt! Whenever the people from this
lab call me, I know who it is before they speak, because the four fridges
basically sound like a loud windstorm in the background. Yes, those
efficient fridges are noisier!
Ed Green - Pixel Cruncher
>I've read a couple of accounts stating that one big source of inefficiency
>is the placement of the compressor at the bottom of the fridge, rather
>than on top.
>
Heat rises. Why put something that generates heat under a place you
want to keep cold?
---
Ed Green, former Ninjaite |I was drinking last night with a biker,
Ed.G...@East.Sun.COM |and I showed him a picture of you. I said,
DoD #0111 (919)460-8302 |"Go on, get to know her, you'll like her!"
(The Grateful Dead) --> |It seemed like the least I could do...
Andy Hogben
>... Whether this
>'frig uses hydrocarbons is unknown. My guess: The use of a microprocessor
>to monitor the cabinet humidity and defrost the coils and walls only when
>needed accounts for the energy savings
remember this was exactly what the article said. Do you subscribe to the
Mercury down in GA John? :-)
>while the refrigerant is either hydrocarbon or R-134a.
Ummm, I don't remember, but I think you're right about the latter.
>I suspect the only innovation is in the use of electronics.
As I remember the article I read, that's what it was all attributed to.
Pretty perceptive of you I'd say. :-)
Andy
--
Andy Hogben
Informix Software, Inc., Menlo Park, CA
aho...@informix.com -or- {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!ahogben
'87 GTI 8v (weekdays) -or- '73 Lotus Europa Special (weekends)
Rob K. Angellatta
> submarine program. Too bad the information is probably own by whirlpool's
> main competitor (Electric boat submarine company is a GE subsidiary). If
Are you thinking of General Dynamics? Electric Boat is a subsidairy of
General Dynamics (GD), which I believe has no affiliation with General
Electric (GE).
Rob
John P. Wolf
: The basic concept with the Sun Frost is to put the compressor on top of the
: fridge, to use lots of insulation, and to keep the refrigerator and freezer
: compartments separate so that air doesn't circulate between the two. It
: supposedly is very efficient and doesn't have the problem of "freezer burn".
: They come in both 12 volt DC and 120 volt AC models.
Which brings up another refrigeration aggravation - what the heck is and
causes "freezer burn"?
Perhaps I should write Beakmen's World.
Annette R. Tharpe
In article <21kgeq$b...@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, ji...@contractor.EBay.Sun.COM (Jim Jones) writes:
>In article <C9vA...@unx.sas.com> sas...@hornet.unx.sas.com (Annette R. Tharpe) writes:
>>
>>What's the problem with noise? I do not sleep in my kitchen, nor do I
>>relax in there to read or watch TV. If I had a dining room, I wouldn't
>>even eat in the kitchen. I have a Whirlpool and it makes noise (compressor,
>>ice maker, etc...) but it has never been a significant problem. I think
>>it is a fairly efficient model although I am sure there are better ones
>>available since I purchased mine in 1986.
>
>My last apartment was a small but nice 1-bedroom with an L-shaped
>combination kitchen/living room. The refrigerator hookup was right at the
>angle of the "L." Thus you could hear the refrigerator (a newish
>Whirlpool) clearly everywhere in the living room and almost as clearly
>in the bedroom, if the door was open. There were no carpets, only hardwood
>floor, so the sound tended to bounce all through the house.
I am the one who posted this and I also live in a one bedroom condo. I have
a great room (kitchen separated from living room by a bar. My dining table is
right next to the fridge, and honestly, I do not notice the noise. Now, it may
be that I have one that isn't as efficient as it could be, but I don't have
outrageous electric bills either. Of course I should say that I get used to
noises and tune them out pretty well. When I was a freshman in college, my
roomate got up way before me. After about a week, I got used to her blow dryer.
For two years I slept through that sound coming from 5 feet away in the dorm
room! Same thing when I got out of college. I was near (but not too close to)
an airport flight path. I got used to the plane noises after about a week.
I guess I'm fortunate:-)
>1) If your apartment is small enough, you _do_ live in your kitchen -- or
>close enough that it doesn't matter.
Mine's that small!
>2) One man's background noise is another man's nuisance. Nobody should
>really have to "get used to" the sound of an appliance that's on _all the
>time._ The manufacturers should do more work on the noise issue.
--
Lyle_...@transarc.com
> is the placement of the compressor at the bottom of the fridge, rather
> than on top. I have no clue why this would be so, but I've seen this
> So, any expert care to enlighten me on why this is so?
Hot air rises.
Lyle Transarc 707 Grant Street
412 338 4474 The Gulf Tower Pittsburgh 15219
Don T. Borowski
efficient than mechanical ones, and so are only used for small
refrigeration units and other specialized applications (like cooling
CPU chips so that the clock speeds can be cranked up).
Don T. Borowski
: >Which is effective only for certain geometries, and even then can't generally
: >cancel noise everywhere. For something like a refrigerator compressor, it's
: >not likely that "antinoise" would be very effective.
:
: On the contrary (IMO). I would think that a refrigerator motor would be
: the ideal candidate for anti-noise type suppression.
: It's a small rythmic, easily contained sound source. I think a speaker
: in the right place would do a dandy job of sound suppression for a
: fridge motor.
it difficult to apply active noise supression. You have to generate
the anti-noise in so many different directions, each with its own phase
and amplitude.
Don T. Borowski
: I've read a couple of accounts stating that one big source of inefficiency
of the heat rising from the bottom and bathing the whole refrigerator
cabinet in that heat, thus increasing the heat transfer to the inside.
Then there is the problem of the liquid refrigerant wanting to run down
into the compressor due to the pull of gravity. Apparently some
efficiency is lost in preventing this from becoming a problem for the
compressor (like hydrolocking).
Of course, most consumers don't like to kneel to get something off the
bottom shelf, so the incentive is there to put the compressor at the
bottom.
Don T. Borowski
not well wrapped.
Self-defrosting refrigerators are worse than manual units for this for
two reasons. The first is that the freezer compartment temperature rises
somewhat during defrost, raising the vapor pressure of ice. Second,
the newly defrosted evaporator coils dehumidify the air better than frosty
coils, and so capture more of the moisture in the air (which is
conviniently supplied by the frozen food).
Scott D. Berry
box tying to heat it back up.
(2) Top location is easier to design cooling (more open).
>Chris van Hasselt
>chr...@med.unc.edu
>
Scott D. Berry Assistant Professor of Physics Florida State University
315 Keen Bldg, B-159, Tallahassee, FL 32306-3016 (904) 644-1218
INTERNET: be...@redbeard.physics.fsu.edu BITNET: berry@fsu
E. Michael Smith
>In article <C9vuy...@cs.uiuc.edu>, ka...@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes:
>=l...@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>=[...]
>=> The noise comes from the motor, which can be surrounded with
>=>insulation.
>=[...]
>
>Which is effective only for certain geometries, and even then can't generally
>cancel noise everywhere. For something like a refrigerator compressor, it's
>not likely that "antinoise" would be very effective.
AND is only effective for certain frequencies. When the frequency
gets high enough, you just get an interference pattern of augementation
and reduction. When that pattern is small enough to fit in the ear
canal, you get noise... though spottier...
--
E. Michael Smith e...@apple.COM
'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has
genius, power and magic in it.' - Goethe
I am not responsible nor is anyone else. Everything is disclaimed.
John De Armond
>In article <104...@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0...@prism.gatech.EDU (Douglas Alan Harrell) writes:
>>When I finish school
>>and can think about buying new appliances again, quietness will be a major
>>factor for me. I worry about the reliability, though, because experience has
>>shown me that a reonditioned 20 year old frig ( made with lots o' steel, just
>>like the cars) has lasted me longer than the newer models. Someone in another
>>article mentioned a one-year compressor motor failure time? Ug.
>That is, until that old fridge needs a recharge and it can't be done.
Of all the refrigerators I own, my old 1928 GE MonitorTop is my favorite.
It weighs about 300 lbs and uses a very quiet low speed hermetic compressor
on top. It's watts/cu ft is lower than any of my modern refrigerators.
Oh, and it uses sulfur dioxide as the refrigerant. Never seems to need
charging.
I agree with Doug. I'd go back further than 20 years though. That would
only put you in the 70s and 70s refrigerators were shit, particularly GE's.
The 60s are a different matter. I have a Frigidair in my cabin in the
mountains that my parents bought in 1959 or 60. It is not frost-free but
only needs defrosting once a year. It is also uses a low speed compressor,
is more efficient than my new ones and has never needed any service other
than door gaskets.
John De Armond
>John, could you say more about hydrocarbon-based refrigerants? I'm told
>(my spies are everywhere) that at one time you came up with a very
>workable design for automotive air conditioning using HC-based working fluid.
A bunch of us have been hacking refrigeration for years. George Goble
(g...@ecn.purdue.edu) and myself seem to be the most active on the net.
We pretty much independently (at first at least) came up with a
hydrocarbon-based drop-in replacement for R-12. It consists of a
mixture of isobutane and propane in the ratio by weight of about 28%/72%
or thereabout. The important part is getting the vapor pressure the
same as R-12. George went on to develop and patent a drop-in
refrigerant that is not flammable and is in every way superior to R-12
for medium temperature applications. It worked so well that the service
industry, with a vested interest in forcing R-134a replacements, lobbied
for over a year before the convinced EPA to ban it. This despite the
clean bill of health given it by the EPA's own technical review
comittee.
Blends are necessary only if compatability with existing expansion devices
is required. Most of the light hydrocarbon gases (propane, butane, isobutane,
etc) are very good refrigerants and even have their own "R" numbers.
Propane is an almost perfect dropin for R-22. Isobutane is a good replacement
for R-12 applications if the expansion device is changed.
>I suspect that the name conjures visions of the Hindenburg--or the Pinto.
>Is the primary obstacle fear?
Yep. Considering a home refrigerator contains about as much refrigerant as
a couple of butane lighters, it can be nothing but fear that stands in the
way of hydrocarbon deployment. Which do you think has more danger potential,
a couple of plastic butane lighters or a hermetically sealed refrigeration
system?
John F. Woods
>It would be interesting to know how noisy Whirlpool's prize refrigerator is.
>When companies are designing for the market, they make what they think is the
>most attractive to consumers package, compromising the various desiderata.
>When they are designing to a specification, they will ignore aspects not
>included in the specification. If Whirlpool's refrigerator is unacceptably
noisy, they will pocket the prize but not try to actually sell the
>refrigerator.
The "prize" is a subsidy on refrigerators sold. No sales, no prize.
The prize was offered by utility companies, who want to see their demand
drop (in fact, a condition of the contest is that the winner offer the
prize-winning refrigerator only in the states served by the utility companies
offering the prize!).
>Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
>how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
>brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
>it was economical of energy.
I don't know how noisy the Westinghouse Wonder is, but I just visited some
friends who bought a brand-new refrigerator this year, the first year after
some federal law required dramatic improvements in refrigerator efficiency.
Strangely enough, it was no noisier *or* more expensive than last year's
refrigerator.
Gary Coffman
>John P. Wolf (jw...@boi.hp.com) wrote:
>: Which brings up another refrigeration aggravation - what the heck is and
>: causes "freezer burn"?
>
>Freezer burn is the drying out of food, especially in places where it is
>not well wrapped.
>
>Self-defrosting refrigerators are worse than manual units for this for
>two reasons. The first is that the freezer compartment temperature rises
>somewhat during defrost, raising the vapor pressure of ice. Second,
>the newly defrosted evaporator coils dehumidify the air better than frosty
>coils, and so capture more of the moisture in the air (which is
>conviniently supplied by the frozen food).
It's a little more complex than this. A burn, hot or cold, has physical
and chemical effects. The primary physical effects are ruptures of cell
walls and loss of cellular fluid. The chemical effects include oxidation
and cross linking of proteins. A freezer burn has all the attributes of
a "hot" burn except the cross linking of proteins.
The mechanism responsible for freezer burn is a slow freeze, with temperatures
only modestly below freezing, and exposure to circulating dehumidified air.
When tissue is frozen slowly, large ice crystals form which rupture cell
walls. If the tissue is flash frozen, as is done in commercial food freezing
operations at temperatures of at least -30F and usually colder, the large
crystals don't form. Instead, many tiny micro-crystals form. This is less
apt to rupture the cell. Commercial operations also hermetically seal the
food packages to prevent dehydration and oxidation. This is why "Green Giant"
tastes fresh while your home frozen vegies and meats often don't.
Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
a.e.mossberg
> I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned the "SunFrost"
>refrigerator in this discusion. I've seen it in the Real Goods catalogue.
> On the down side, the Sun Frost is not frost-free and the units are quite
>expensive (this probably has something to do with the small size of the
>company).
They also are pretty small capacity.
Real Goods also carries Servel Propane Refrigerators, and some brand of
propane or 12V ice makers. All real neat stuff, but too expensive to
justify replacing on the basis of energy cost for anyone connected to
the grid.
aem
--
andrew eric mossberg / symbiosis corporation / pahayokee bioregion
(305) 597-4110 / fax: (305) 597-4002 / a...@symbiosis.ahp.com
Robert K. Kawaratani
In article <JMC.93Ju...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> (misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,sci.environment), j...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
> Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
> how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
> brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
> it was economical of energy.
I find that after living in Japan for a while, the appliances in the
U.S. are intolerably noisy compared to Japanese appliances. Apparently
designing for Japanese housing (small compared to U.S. housing) puts
a premium on designing quieter motors and equipment that doesn't rattle.
Also, given the high electricity prices here, most equipment seems
to be fairly energy efficient (may be five door refrigerator designs
help save energy).
Craig Powderkeg DeForest
There is one kind of refrigeration system that both uses no CFCs,
and can be totally silent. Peltier effect refrigeration uses solid
state devices, sort of like thermocouples run in reverse, to get cooling
with no moving parts. This tends to be expensive, and is generally only
considered practical for small applications, where the complexity of a
compressor and fluid system would be expensive anyway.
You can buy Peltier effect junctions relatively cheaply, at least compared
to the cost of buying any other kind of heat pump with similar throughput.
The main trouble is sinking all the heat: without a working fluid, and at
only about 25% efficiency, it's hard to suck all the heat away from the
hot end of the junction fast enough to keep it happy.
The efficiency problem with Peltier junctions has to do with how they work.
Electrons `like' to be in some kinds of metal more than in others; that's
why batteries work. When an electron jumps from, say, Copper to Aluminum
it slows down a little bit (loses some kinetic energy). Likewise, jumping
back into the Copper perks it up (it gets some kinetic energy). If you
pump electrons around a circuit with some aluminum and some copper, you'll
heat up the parts where they jump into the copper, and cool down the parts
where they jump into the aluminum.
The catch is that, to move a significant amount of heat, you need to run
a LOT of current through the junctions. That means that you'll run up a lot
of dissipated power through ohmic heating (resistance of the wires).
You can combat that by making the wires big and thick. Then your resistance
goes down and you can run more current through the junctions, pumping
more heat around. But you lose, too -- the electrons are what carries most
of the heat around in a metal. So by making your metal bits efficient
conductors of electricity, you're also making them efficient conductors
of heat, which you don't want (heat will want to flow back `upstream' to
the cold end). So the more electrically efficient you make your junction,
the less thermally efficient it is. That's why Peltier junctions aren't
the greatest heatpumps in the world.
BTW, Real Goods' number is 800-762-7325. Shop around a bit; their prices
aren't the lowest in town, by a long shot.
--
DON'T DRINK SOAP! DILUTE DILUTE! OK!
Mark Wilson
| [Complaints about a noisy refrigerator...]
| That part is actually easy.
| The noise comes from the motor,
Actually the compressor.
| which can be surrounded with insulation.
Only if you want it it to wear out sooner from excessive heat build up.
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark....@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Mark Wilson
|John, could you say more about hydrocarbon-based refrigerants? I'm told
|(my spies are everywhere) that at one time you came up with a very
|workable design for automotive air conditioning using HC-based working fluid.
|I suspect that the name conjures visions of the Hindenburg--or the Pinto.
|Is the primary obstacle fear?
From what I have heard so far, it looks like the major opposition has come
from the makers of flouro-carbon refrigerants. HC-134 in particular.
John McCarthy
is almost unanimous, but this kind of complaint is much too good-natured
to have any real effect.
What would cause action would be some fanatics with someone to blame.
"Noisy refrigerators shorten the lives of the poor. The wicked
companies and their tools in the Government have persistently refused
to establish noise standards. Clinton and Gore and Quayle all have
stock in refrigerator companies. Take a bunch of noisy refrigerators
to the Capitol and plug them in, and plug in another batch at the EPA.
Boycott Whirlpool. Bring back the ice box and the ice man with his
horse. An ice box isn't noisy. The companies deliberately bought up
all the horses belonging to the ice men and sold them to the glue
factories. Scientists and journalists were paid off to say that
refrigerators are more sanitary and convenient than ice boxes."
Where are Alan McGowen and Jym Dyer when we need them?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Mike Sestak
Subject: Re: $30M refrigerator design prize won by Whirlpool
Summary:
Expires:
References: <JMC.93Ju...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <21i0lf...@lynx.unm.edu>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: College of Natural Resources, Colo. State Univ.
Keywords:
In article <21i0lf...@lynx.unm.edu> bailey%ssdvax...@lbgwy.mdc.com writes:
>John McCarthy (j...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
>> Can someone enlighten us about the tradeoff between noise and
>> economy in refrigerators? In cars, the big ones are quiet but
>> not economical.
>
>From a physics point of view, noise or sound *is* energy. Wasted energy in
>this case, thus lowering efficiency -- theoretically. So confusion is
>understadable.
>
>I called my Whirlpool dealer shortly after my purchase to complain about
>the noise. They sent out a service tech who made some adustment, but the
>noise only improved slightly. His explanation was that "some times the
>more efficient fridge's are just noisier".
>
>My speculation is that there could be a couple of causes.
>
>One, all the sound dampening materials and pratices result in less
>efficient heat transfer. Either through poor air circulation in the case
>of the housing. Extra baffels and mufflers (if thats the right word) could
>restrict air flow. Or poor heat transfer from the coils due to thicker tube
>walls and fins. The thicker tubes and fins would have higher resonant
>frequencies and be less likely to 'ring' (thats the sound my fridge makes
>anyway).
>
>The other explanation could be that the money invested into more
>efficiency means less money for the other stuff like luxurious sound
>proofing. Assuming that price is compairable to a quieter but less
>efficient model.
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
> Lee Bailey | E-mail: bailey%ssdvax...@lbgwy.mdc.com
> MDA-HB | S-mail: 12750 Centralia #221, Lakewood CA 90715
>Space Station | V-mail: (310) 809-8966 home
>______________|
>Disclaimer: I just work here -- I don't talk shop on the net.
Could it be that more energy efficient models have the compressor more or
less outside the insulated compartment so the motor etc doesn't contribute
to heating the cooled compartment, but the older models have it more or
less inside to make it quieter since heat insulation generally makes good
sound insulation? If so, how much more costly would it be to soundproof
the motor and compressor separately?
mik...@storm.cfnr.colostate.edu
someday I'll have to build a proper internet sig
Meanwhile, consider: Reality is just a simulation model that works.
William Reiken
>
> I called my Whirlpool dealer shortly after my purchase to complain about
> the noise. They sent out a service tech who made some adustment, but the
> noise only improved slightly. His explanation was that "some times the
> more efficient fridge's are just noisier".
>
So I guess if this new refrigerator is so good than your going to
have to either turn if off so you can hear the person next to you or your
going to have to sound-proof your kitchen.
Will...
William Reiken
>
> I find that after living in Japan for a while, the appliances in the
> U.S. are intolerably noisy compared to Japanese appliances. Apparently
> designing for Japanese housing (small compared to U.S. housing) puts
> a premium on designing quieter motors and equipment that doesn't rattle.
>
is loud as hell. I live in a house, US Size, by the way. I hate that
little bastard.
>
> Also, given the high electricity prices here, most equipment seems
> to be fairly energy efficient (may be five door refrigerator designs
> help save energy).
>
I have often wondered why they put so damn many doors on those things.
This does seem to be a reasonable answer. But I will not let you get away
with the first statement. I think, Japanese refrigerators are little monsters
from Hell.
Will...
thabe...@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
>>I suspect that the name conjures visions of the Hindenburg--or the Pinto.
>>Is the primary obstacle fear?
Strangely enough, there was an article in yesterdays newspaper about the man
who invented CFCs.
I'll try to tell some of what I remember:
Refrigerators had already been invented, but they were not selling well,
primarily because the refrigerants being used were either highly toxic
or highly flammable. Many people had died from leaking refrigerant.
GM told this guy (I really can't remember his name), who was working
for Delco, to find a substance that can be safely used for refrigeration.
He invented CFCs.
The article was in the July 11 Dayton Daily News.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Haberlandt | thabe...@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
Science Applications Int'l Corp|
Dayton, Ohio |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The opinions and views expressed here are strictly my own and do not
reflect the official position of either the U.S. Air Force or SAIC"
Don T. Borowski
: In article <21i0lf...@lynx.unm.edu> bailey%ssdvax...@lbgwy.mdc.com writes:
: >John McCarthy (j...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: >
: >> Can someone enlighten us about the tradeoff between noise and
: >> economy in refrigerators? In cars, the big ones are quiet but
: >> not economical.
: >
: >From a physics point of view, noise or sound *is* energy. Wasted energy in
: >this case, thus lowering efficiency -- theoretically. So confusion is
: >understadable.
: >
: >I called my Whirlpool dealer shortly after my purchase to complain about
: >the noise. They sent out a service tech who made some adustment, but the
: >noise only improved slightly. His explanation was that "some times the
: >more efficient fridge's are just noisier".
: >
: >My speculation is that there could be a couple of causes.
: >
: >One, all the sound dampening materials and pratices result in less
: >efficient heat transfer. Either through poor air circulation in the case
: >of the housing. Extra baffels and mufflers (if thats the right word) could
: >restrict air flow. Or poor heat transfer from the coils due to thicker tube
: >walls and fins. The thicker tubes and fins would have higher resonant
: >frequencies and be less likely to 'ring' (thats the sound my fridge makes
: >anyway).
: >
: >The other explanation could be that the money invested into more
: >efficiency means less money for the other stuff like luxurious sound
: >proofing. Assuming that price is compairable to a quieter but less
: >efficient model.
: > Lee Bailey | E-mail: bailey%ssdvax...@lbgwy.mdc.com
:
: Could it be that more energy efficient models have the compressor more or
: less outside the insulated compartment so the motor etc doesn't contribute
: to heating the cooled compartment, but the older models have it more or
: less inside to make it quieter since heat insulation generally makes good
: sound insulation? If so, how much more costly would it be to soundproof
: the motor and compressor separately?
and compressor are not seperate units.
This has several advantages. The materials needed are minimized, since
one internal frame serves both components. In addition, liquid oil is
available for both the motor and compressor bearings. A seperate motor
would probably have "lubed for life" bearings, which would have a shorter
life. And finally, the major advantage--there is no need to seal a
rotating shaft, since the motor and compressor are sealed into one
unit. All you need to do is bring in power through sealed (and non-
rotating) electrical feed throughs.
John De Armond
>You can buy Peltier effect junctions relatively cheaply, at least compared
>to the cost of buying any other kind of heat pump with similar throughput.
Uh No. I can buy a 12,000 btu/hr (3.5 KW/hr) air conditioner for $300
plus or minus any day. A 15 watt/hr peltier junction (from an old Cambion
catalog) is $25. Moving 3.5 KW/hr of heat at that rate would require
234 stacks at $5,862. A typical AC will have a COP (watts moved divided
by watts consumed) of 2.5-3. A good peltier stack with good hot side
cooling is lucky to achieve a COP of 1.
Craig Powderkeg DeForest
zo...@daedalus.stanford.edu (Craig "Powderkeg" DeForest) writes:
>You can buy Peltier effect junctions relatively cheaply, at least compared
>to the cost of buying any other kind of heat pump with similar throughput.
Uh No. I can buy a 12,000 btu/hr (3.5 KW/hr) air conditioner for $300
plus or minus any day. A 15 watt/hr peltier junction (from an old Cambion
catalog) is $25. Moving 3.5 KW/hr of heat at that rate would require
234 stacks at $5,862. A typical AC will have a COP (watts moved divided
by watts consumed) of 2.5-3. A good peltier stack with good hot side
cooling is lucky to achieve a COP of 1.
Uh -- sorry. I guess I slipped. I was thinking about low-power operations
with a higher gradient than in an air conditioner. I've been investigating
options to convert my van's built-in icebox into a refrigerator. I only
need around 15-30 watts of cooling power, at $50 for the junctions and maybe
another $50 for miscellaneous hookup stuff to total $100.
I've priced several small fridges and heatpumps; even claiming to be a small
commercial shop, the best price I've seen on a small freon pump is around
$400.
I'll probably end up scavenging one from an old used bar fridge; but that
has problems of its own: do I buy an inverter to run the (almost certainly
AC) pump motor; or do I scrounge up a DC motor from a surplus store and
try to install it?
In short, for small-power applications, Peltier junctions win in
price. Of course, they *are* inefficient compared to mechanical
systems; and for larger amounts of heat transfer, the mechanical
systems win in price, too.
Steve Holzworth
deleted
>Uh -- sorry. I guess I slipped. I was thinking about low-power operations
>with a higher gradient than in an air conditioner. I've been investigating
>options to convert my van's built-in icebox into a refrigerator. I only
>need around 15-30 watts of cooling power, at $50 for the junctions and maybe
>another $50 for miscellaneous hookup stuff to total $100.
Several cooler (ice chest) manufacturers offer cigar-lighter-powered
coolers (presumably) based on Peltier-effect cooling. Look in better
sporting goods stores.
--
Steve Holzworth
s...@unx.sas.com "Do not attribute to poor spelling
x6872 That which is actually poor typing..."
SAS Institute - Open Systems R & D - me
Cary, N.C.
Mark C. Lawrence
>>to the cost of buying any other kind of heat pump with similar throughput.
>
>
>Uh No. I can buy a 12,000 btu/hr (3.5 KW/hr) air conditioner for $300
KW/hr? Is that the rate of change of heat transfer?
I assume you mean "3.5 kW", i.e. 3500 joules/sec of heat moved.
Watts seem to be one of the most understood of units, perhaps because
people aren't used to seeing "rate" units that don't have "per" in them.
Didn't think I'd catch you, though, John.
Mark C. Lawrence
Systems Programmer Internet: M.Law...@Forsythe.Stanford.edu
Stanford Data Center Bitnet: M.Lawrence@STANFORD
Stanford, CA 94305-4136 Tel: (415) 723-4976
John De Armond
>Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
>how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
>brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
>it was economical of energy.
I certainly can't see the connection between noise and efficiency. Noise
is primarily related to compressor speed, mufflers or lack thereof,
vibration isolation of the compressor and condensing space insulation.
Knowing GE, I imagine they eliminated the mufflers to save a half cent.
And speaking of GE, when I was the co-owner of a refrigeration service
shop (most of the 70s) we replaced more GE compressors than all other
makes combined. On a more personal note, both my mom's and my refrigerator
puked their compressors within 6 months of being out of their 5 year
warranties. If you ever cut a tiny little GE compressor open, you can see
why they're so fragile. Tiny little bearings, very high speed,
normal operational temperatures right at the edge. Some even have separate
oil coolers. I wouldn't take a GE frige now if it was given to me.
Craig Powderkeg DeForest
Several cooler (ice chest) manufacturers offer cigar-lighter-powered
coolers (presumably) based on Peltier-effect cooling. Look in better
sporting goods stores.
Actually, I've looked at several of these. In general, they don't offer enough
throughput for low enough power. For example, the Igloo one ($80 at Price
Club) only claims a 40 to 50 degree (Fahrenheit) differential between the
inside and outside, at a continuous 4A/12V draw. Allowing 500mA for a
5" brushless muffin fan on the hot end, and 50mA for a small, high-efficiency
brushless fan on the cold end, I believe I can do much better than that with
a custom system, for the same power requirements and cost.
The problem is that I want it to work all the time -- even when I don't
run the car, and without plugging into the grid. So I'm considering mounting
solar panels on top of the car (eg a 100-W Quad-Lam from Real Goods) to drive
the thing, and a small (50 A-h) deep cycle battery back in the engine
compartment. The hassle is that the Quad-Lam provides a peak of 5.6 amps;
dividing by 5 for continuous use and battery losses, I can only rely
on a continuous power supply of a little over an amp.
Norcold makes a terrific line of small portable and RV fridges. Most of
the smaller ones use the same tiny DC compressor -- it consumes 3.5 A.
Unlike the Peltier junctions, the Norcold doesn't have to be running all
the time. Because the mechanical system is more efficient, I think it'd
fit (at ~25% duty cycle) into the 1.1A continuous power budget. They'll
even sell you the heat pump without the fridge -- they sell it as a
kit.
The problem? I phoned the company, and they quoted me a price of
$325. Then --oops-- they said they couldn't sell it to me directly,
because I wasn't a distributor. They referred me to a bunch of
distributors in the Bay Area. I called several, getting prices
of around $600. One quoted me $525. But --oops-- "we can't sell it
to you directly, because you're not one of our dealers." Got
a list of local dealers, with prices between $800 to $1200!
WTF? I don't want to support eight middlemen and their families. I
just want a heat pump, dammit!
I finally phoned back the factory, and they referred me to a warehouse
mail-order distributor, who offered me a price of $450. But now I'm
starting to think about cheaper ways to scrounge a heat pump. The
solar panel will cost plenty anyway.
Richard Bell
>
>>>I suspect that the name conjures visions of the Hindenburg--or the Pinto.
>>>Is the primary obstacle fear?
>
>
>Strangely enough, there was an article in yesterdays newspaper about the man
>who invented CFCs.
>I'll try to tell some of what I remember:
>
>Refrigerators had already been invented, but they were not selling well,
>primarily because the refrigerants being used were either highly toxic
>or highly flammable. Many people had died from leaking refrigerant.
>GM told this guy (I really can't remember his name), who was working
>for Delco, to find a substance that can be safely used for refrigeration.
>He invented CFCs.
>
Not only did he invent CFC's, but he also realized that adding lead to
gasoline would improve engine performance. He would be considered an
environmental demon, if not for his other invention which allowed women
to drive automobiles -- the electric starter. His name was Kettering
(I've forgotten his last name)
Jonathan Allan
If you're thinking of the same Kettering I'm remembering, then
it is Charles Kettering and he also invented the gizmo which allowed
airplanes to fire the machine-gun through the propeller without
hitting the prop.
But then, it's been a long time since I lived in Dayton, OH, and
I may have this all wrong.
FWIW
Jonathan Allan
hamil...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
You've forgotton far more! :-). His name was Thomas Midgley Jr.,.
As always I refer interested readers to "Midgley: Saint or Serpent" by
George B. Kauffman in Chemtech (December 1989 p717-725) an excellent
description of him and his research. Charles F Kettering was Midgley's boss and
assigned the job of discovering the cause of knock ( in spark ignition engines
) and ways to eliminate it.
Midgley systematically investigated a range of compounds and from those results
was able to predict the superiour anti-knock properties of the alkyl lead
compounds ( Tetra ethyl and tetra methyl lead ). One of Midgleys team "Tab"
Boyd also discovered the halogen scavenger required to prevent the metallic
lead building up in the combustion chamber and exhaust muffler/silencer by
converting the lead to volatile halide compounds.
The discovery of TEL took five years, but the discovery of CFCs took 3 days.
Once again it was the use of the periodic table and the International
Critical Tables, and many hours of correlating properties with structure, that
enabled Midgley to chose the structure that would have the non-flammable,
non-toxic properties that Kettering had requested. Interestingly Midgley had
obtained 5 bottles of antimony trifluoride for the reaction to produce
dichlorofluoromethane, and their first experiment produced a gas that didn't
kill the experimental mouse. The next ones did - the other 4 SbF3 bottles were
impure and also produced phosgene. According to Midgley if the first one had
failed no further work would have been performed, because most other
researchers expected the gas to be toxic. Luck really is when "preparation
meets opportunity" as the old saying goes.
Read the article, he was a man of his time, the adverse environmental
consequences of his research only arose because his solutions to problems were
so successful that they became major worldwide industries.
Bruce Hamilton 7
Don T. Borowski
: j...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
:
: >Some years ago, my daughter complained to General Electric about
: >how noisy a refrigerator was, and received in reply a nice
: >brochure explaining that the refrigerator was indeed noisy, but
: >it was economical of energy.
:
: I certainly can't see the connection between noise and efficiency. Noise
: is primarily related to compressor speed, mufflers or lack thereof,
: vibration isolation of the compressor and condensing space insulation.
: Knowing GE, I imagine they eliminated the mufflers to save a half cent.
:
: And speaking of GE, when I was the co-owner of a refrigeration service
: shop (most of the 70s) we replaced more GE compressors than all other
: makes combined. On a more personal note, both my mom's and my refrigerator
: puked their compressors within 6 months of being out of their 5 year
: warranties. If you ever cut a tiny little GE compressor open, you can see
: why they're so fragile. Tiny little bearings, very high speed,
: normal operational temperatures right at the edge. Some even have separate
: oil coolers. I wouldn't take a GE frige now if it was given to me.
in the Wall Street Journal (7 May 1990) about the rotary compressor fiasco
said that they had to go to outside vendors for their replacement
compressors. It also says, "But today, the very managers who had
defiantly refused to buy compressors from overseas rivals are doing
exactly that. Now, when GE assembles refrigerators at its plants in
Louisville, Indiana and Alabama, it uses compressors purchased from
six suppliers, five of them foreign."
Bob Hale
>There is one kind of refrigeration system that both uses no CFCs,
>and can be totally silent. Peltier effect refrigeration uses solid
>state devices, sort of like thermocouples run in reverse, to get cooling
>with no moving parts. This tends to be expensive, and is generally only
>considered practical for small applications, where the complexity of a
>anyone making a full size fridge with them, but there are ``iceless
>coolers'' that you plug into a cigarette lighter in a car. I don't
>know what efficiency they achieve, or whether they have fans, but I
>imagine they are *much* quieter than compressor systems even
>if they do have fans.
I have two of these Peltier-cooled refrigerators of different
sizes. They do use fans and they are noisier than a conventional
full-size refrigerator. The noise is entirely due to the fan and
its motor.
Efficiency of the Peltier cells is about the same as that of a
conventional compressor system.
BTW, I haven't seen any of these refrigerators that have a
thermostat. They just cool continuously as long as power is
applied. Under typical conditions they will eventually freeze
their contents. You could add a thermostat but this is somewhat
self-defeating because the Peltier cell is a good heat conductor
when it is turned off - outside heat rapidly flows into the
refrigerator and raises its inside temperature so that the cooling
cycle has to start up again.
Bob Hale ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!ha...@brooktree.com (preferred)
Eric Williams
: WTF? I don't want to support eight middlemen and their families. I
I just checked some of my catalogs: Sunelco Inc. (406-363-6924) offers
something they call the "Nova Kool system". This package includes a
Danfoss BD-2.5 12v compressor, cooling plates, tubing to connect them,
and a thermostat for $785. Might still be too expensive, but it's
another option.
--
Eric Williams | Muscled, black with steel-green eye
| Swishing through the rye grass
wd6...@netcom.com | with thoughts of mouse-and-apple pie
| Tail balancing at half-mast.
WD6CMU@WD6CMU.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA | ...and the Mouse Police never sleeps
Rolf Meier
>zo...@daedalus.stanford.edu (Craig "Powderkeg" DeForest) writes:
>>You can buy Peltier effect junctions relatively cheaply, at least compared
>>to the cost of buying any other kind of heat pump with similar throughput.
>Uh No. I can buy a 12,000 btu/hr (3.5 KW/hr) air conditioner for $300
>plus or minus any day. A 15 watt/hr peltier junction (from an old Cambion
>catalog) is $25. Moving 3.5 KW/hr of heat at that rate would require
>234 stacks at $5,862. A typical AC will have a COP (watts moved divided
Obviously.
But compare the cost of a 10 BTU/hour Peltier effect thermocouple with the
cost of a 10 BTU/hour mechanical heat pump. When small amounts of heat
need to be moved, the thermocouple is much preferred. The mechanical heat
pump has a lot of overhead in parts and power so that it would not be
economical.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
Robert K. Kawaratani
I should have put in the standard disclaimer, your mileage may vary.
My experience is that refrigerators (2) that I've owned in the last
8 years here have been pretty quiet. Our current one, a 400 liter
model with various attachments is very quiet as is our current washing
machine. Sorry to hear that your experience is to the contrary.
Look on the bright side, you might have gotten one of those exploding
Mashushita models.
Take care,
Bob
John Porter
: My folks have one that's fairly good size; big enough for two people. I don't
: think the current Real Goods catalogs list it. It has the freezer on the
: bottom and fridge on the top; it has what we all consider to be a
: disproportionately large freezer and small fridge.
Is that with the larger person in the freezer and the smaller one
in the fridge? :)
--
John Porter
jpo...@bu.edu
John De Armond
I have a Peltier cooled ice box. IT works fine but it can never be
powered down or it pumps heat back in about as fast. Plus it is
a power hog for very little cooling. I installed a separate battery
in my car to run it. Plus I have to precool cokes and stuff.
It will keep them cool but it takes days to bring a couple of 6-packs
down from ambient.
How much hacking do you mind doing? Depending on what you're willing
to do, your solution is easily at hand. You could do what Chrysler is
doing with their electric minivan pig and direct drive a very small
rotary compressor with an electric motor. A suitable compressor could
be had from any miniature car such as a Hyundai. A small surplus
permanent magnet servo motor would do the trick. I've bought several
for under $25.
Another option is to hook another evaporator into your vehicle's AC
system. This works well, particularly if your system uses a POA valve.
(most do) I did this on one of my cars in order to chill water
circulated through tubing I installed in the seat and seat back. A
variation of the theme would be to do this in conjunction with the above
compressor with some solenoid valves to appropriately route the
refrigerant. Run on the car's system when it's running and on the
electric compressor when it's not.
Friges will run just fine on inverters. I've run my household friges
on a 1000 watt inverter during extended power outages, recharging the
batteries from my car. A mini dorm room-type frige should run
just fine on these new PWM inverters meant to run laptops. I noticed
Comp USA had some 200 watt units about the size of a pack of cigarettes
for $79. The big question is does the inverter have enough reserve to
start the compressor. You'd just have to try it and see.
John De Armond
>Norcold makes a terrific line of small portable and RV fridges. Most of
>the smaller ones use the same tiny DC compressor -- it consumes 3.5 A.
>Unlike the Peltier junctions, the Norcold doesn't have to be running all
>the time. Because the mechanical system is more efficient, I think it'd
>fit (at ~25% duty cycle) into the 1.1A continuous power budget. They'll
>even sell you the heat pump without the fridge -- they sell it as a
>kit.
>The problem? I phoned the company, and they quoted me a price of
>$325. Then --oops-- they said they couldn't sell it to me directly,
>because I wasn't a distributor. They referred me to a bunch of
>distributors in the Bay Area. I called several, getting prices
>of around $600. One quoted me $525. But --oops-- "we can't sell it
>to you directly, because you're not one of our dealers." Got
>a list of local dealers, with prices between $800 to $1200!
So why don't you become a distributor? Sound like a neet product.
You could probably find enough people on the net to make up the
initial order. I'd most likely take one depending on when you hit me
for the cash :-)
Why don't you post some more details of the compressor?
Dick King
> I figure higher efficiency means higher refrigerant temperature and
>pressure differential within the system;
Actually you would expect LOWER pressure differentials in a more efficient
system. Any pressure differential beyond that required by the temperature
differential required by the refrigerator is a waste.
-dk
GORDON ALLEN R
You can buy an old box and retrofit it with parts from Danfoss. The latter
are in the hundred dollar range and they have dc as well as ac compressors.
Getting it charged will cost an additional amount.
--
Allen Gordon *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gor...@spot.colorado.edu *toads, each would be more intelligent than *
*Aristotle *
Rolf Meier
>I have two of these Peltier-cooled refrigerators of different
>sizes. They do use fans and they are noisier than a conventional
>full-size refrigerator. The noise is entirely due to the fan and
>its motor.
I tried to build one, and yes, I discovered that I needed a fan to get
enough heat away from the heat sink. More heat is generated than is
moved. Proper design can result in lower noise.
>Efficiency of the Peltier cells is about the same as that of a
>conventional compressor system.
No, the Peltier thermocouple is quite inefficient except at small
temperature differentials.
>BTW, I haven't seen any of these refrigerators that have a
>thermostat. They just cool continuously as long as power is
>applied. Under typical conditions they will eventually freeze
>their contents. You could add a thermostat but this is somewhat
>self-defeating because the Peltier cell is a good heat conductor
>when it is turned off - outside heat rapidly flows into the
>refrigerator and raises its inside temperature so that the cooling
>cycle has to start up again.
There is no reason why you would not have a thermostat; my design had one.
However, I doubt that it would ever work well enough to freeze the
contents, especially with a temperature of 90 degrees ambient.
The fan would run on past the thermocouple shut-off in order to
dissipate leftover heat on the heatsink.
I wanted a design with no moving parts and I found that I could not
achieve the necessary cooling without a fan. The search continues.
_______________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
Harrison Roberts
>In article <CA3z1...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, rlb...@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Bell) writes:
>>In article <1993Jul12....@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil> thabe...@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil writes:
>>>
>
>You've forgotton far more! :-). His name was Thomas Midgley Jr.,.
>As always I refer interested readers to "Midgley: Saint or Serpent" by
>George B. Kauffman in Chemtech (December 1989 p717-725) an excellent
>description of him and his research. Charles F Kettering was Midgley's boss and
Another interesting source is "Between the Earth and Sky"
.by Cagin and Drey. It gives the history of the development of TEL and
CFC/FREON by Kettering and Midgley, and reviews environmental impact.
>The discovery of TEL took five years, but the discovery of CFCs took 3 days.
>Once again it was the use of the periodic table and the International
>Critical Tables, and many hours of correlating properties with structure, that
>enabled Midgley to chose the structure that would have the non-flammable,
>non-toxic properties that Kettering had requested. Interestingly Midgley had
the above mentioned source suggests that the bulk of the five years was
spent on a random search. They started using a new version of the
periodic table and developed a less random search for an antiknock
additive near the end of the five years.
Mark Wilson
Higher temperature differentials make the heat transfer more efficient.
You need higher pressures to get higher temperature differentials.
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark....@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
John De Armond
>|Actually you would expect LOWER pressure differentials in a more efficient
>|system. Any pressure differential beyond that required by the temperature
>|differential required by the refrigerator is a waste.
>Higher temperature differentials make the heat transfer more efficient.
>You need higher pressures to get higher temperature differentials.
You're still wrong. Heat transfer efficiency (whatever that is) doesn't
matter since a prerequisite is the condenser and evaporator coils are sized
properly for the heat load. The pressures involved are the vapor
pressures of the refrigerant at the prevailing temperatures. Increasing
the temperature differential between the cold and hot side directly
increases the work load on the compressor and that increases energy
consumption. This should be obvious to anyone capable of doing a
simple thought experiment. If the differential temperature were zero,
then the differential vapor pressure would be zero and there would be no
work (other than line loss) involved in pumping the refrigerant.
Mark O. Wilson
|In article <21l5hg...@symbi1.symbiosis.ahp.com>, a...@symbiosis.ahp.com (a.e.mossberg) writes:
||> uci...@cis.unocal.com (Chris Yoder) writes:
||>
||> > I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned the "SunFrost"
||> >refrigerator in this discusion. I've seen it in the Real Goods catalogue.
||>
||> > On the down side, the Sun Frost is not frost-free and the units are quite
||> >expensive (this probably has something to do with the small size of the
||> >company).
||>
||> They also are pretty small capacity.
|My folks have one that's fairly good size; big enough for two people. I don't
I'm still trying to figure out why your folks want to put two people in their
refrigerator.