Re: Should All South Africa's City Be Changed Back To What They Were Before ???
Jace
news:7811cd59-1511-4b01...@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 16, 4:48 am, Jace <jac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> **LET US please CALMLY DISCUSS THIS !!!***
>>
>> I was thinking to myself, shouldn't we reinstate the original names of
>> atleast some of the major cities in south africa ?It's been done with
>> some of the cities without no allergic side-effects. I'm only
>> speculating here, but when i think about it, our great grandfathers
>> came here, colonised the hell out of SA, drew borders, rearranged and
>> relocated tribes... But now that all's been forgiven, shouldn't things
>> be reset the way they are ? and if so, what kind of implications would
>> it lead to ? I know that if someone moved into my backyard, declared
>> themselve the owner, and after a short but heated tussle, we're 'best
>> buddies'... I'd expect them to put back my garden rake back where they
>> found it. Am i being a over-sympathetic ? Or are we being under-
>> sympathetic ? Bloemfonitein ? Durban ? Johannesburg ? Kimberly ? This
>> is still africa... right ?
>
> Well not all of those places were established settlements before the
> arrival of whites. No reason for Johannesburg to be renamed as far as
> I can see - and it hasn't been. Also the whole business of renaming is
> pretty much overdone. "Pretoria", the place, has not been renamed, but
> the municipal area has been - which is not that unreasonable as it is
> substantially different now.
>
> Kimberly is only where it is because diamonds were discovered - so
> there may not have been a settlement there prior to the arrival of the
> prospectors.
>
> I would think that there's a better case for renaming streets, places
> or buildings that are named after apartheid-era leaders: John Vorster,
> Hendrik Verwoerd and so on. Though I'd hope that they leave Jan Smuts
> alone - he does not deserve to be placed in that company.
>
> I thought it was a nice touch to rename DF Malan Drive after Beyers
> Naude - though his name remains controversial in some quarters.
> However the dust has settled now and nutters have stopped spraying
> over the new name and painting the cemetery gates orange, white and
> blue.
I guess this is one of the issues that has been laid to rest, I still can't
help that guilty itch though. But I'm glad that some resolution seems to
have been found, I can't help but think that we're too preoccupied with
other tumultuous happenings of our government to worry about such "Small
things"... It seems all it took was some time. Relative to other nations, we
haven't had the same amount of time to consolidate democracy. I fear for our
future, but i commend those who have brought us thus far. But are we really
that worse off ??? I mean, other countries have to worry about tornadoes,
sanctions, security threats, wars,pollution... All we seem to have are
'normal' humanitarian problems... AIDS, Crime, a bit of poverty(Corrupt
officials are a worldwide phenomenon so i won't count them here)... I'm
still a very young person with high ideals but, all things considered,
should i count myself lucky to be born in SA ? Are We really so blind that
we do not see what we have and instead engage in destructive nit picking ?
South Africa, are we spoilt brats? :-o
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Bob Dubery" <megap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
how fortunate we are compared to most of the planet that is quite
clear. Whether we're all brats is another question.
ProfQ
> On Sep 16, 9:34 am, "Jace" <Jac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Bob Dubery" <megap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
<snip>
>>> pretty much overdone. "Pretoria", the place, has not been renamed, but
>>> the municipal area has been - which is not that unreasonable as it is
>>> substantially different now.
They call anywhere north of the Hennops "Tshwane" whether it is or it
isn't. Pretoria is still Pretoria and always will be. I wish those SABC
people would get it into their collectively stupid heads that Tshwane is
the name of the metro council and not the geographical area. The Union
Buildings are in Pretoria, not in Tshwane, so people reporting on
television are reporting from Pretoria, not Tshwane, as they love to do.
It appears the ANC will stop at nothing to enforce their will on the
entire country, if not the entire continent, Gaddafi allowing it, of course.
As to Hans Strijdom Drive now being called Malibongwe Drive is anyone's
guess. I call it Balimongwe just to be amusing.
>>> Kimberly is only where it is because diamonds were discovered - so
>>> there may not have been a settlement there prior to the arrival of the
>>> prospectors.
>>> I would think that there's a better case for renaming streets, places
>>> or buildings that are named after apartheid-era leaders: John Vorster,
>>> Hendrik Verwoerd and so on. Though I'd hope that they leave Jan Smuts
>>> alone - he does not deserve to be placed in that company.
Unless Jan Smuts Avenue becomes O R Tambo Avenue like the Airport.
Fortunately FAJS will always remain FAJS irrespective of the physical
name of the airport.
>>> I thought it was a nice touch to rename DF Malan Drive after Beyers
>>> Naude - though his name remains controversial in some quarters.
>>> However the dust has settled now and nutters have stopped spraying
>>> over the new name and painting the cemetery gates orange, white and
>>> blue.
Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
they are up to ....?
>> I guess this is one of the issues that has been laid to rest, I still can't
>> help that guilty itch though. But I'm glad that some resolution seems to
>> have been found, I can't help but think that we're too preoccupied with
>> other tumultuous happenings of our government to worry about such "Small
>> things"... It seems all it took was some time. Relative to other nations, we
>> haven't had the same amount of time to consolidate democracy. I fear for our
>> future, but i commend those who have brought us thus far. But are we really
>> that worse off ??? I mean, other countries have to worry about tornadoes,
>> sanctions, security threats, wars,pollution... All we seem to have are
>> 'normal' humanitarian problems... AIDS, Crime, a bit of poverty(Corrupt
>> officials are a worldwide phenomenon so i won't count them here)... I'm
>> still a very young person with high ideals but, all things considered,
>> should i count myself lucky to be born in SA ? Are We really so blind that
>> we do not see what we have and instead engage in destructive nit picking ?
>> South Africa, are we spoilt brats? :-o
>>
> Well, a lot of as are certainly spoilt! When you travel abroad and see
> how fortunate we are compared to most of the planet that is quite
> clear. Whether we're all brats is another question.
>
It takes a brat to notice another brat, it also takes a reasonable
person to see and identify a brat, especially a spoilt brat, and it
takes a real brain-child to acknowledge that the ANC was, is and always
will be a TERRORIST organisation hell-bent on doing their own
destructive will.
Bob Dubery
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> > On Sep 16, 9:34 am, "Jace" <Jac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Bob Dubery" <megap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> pretty much overdone. "Pretoria", the place, has not been renamed, but
> >>> the municipal area has been - which is not that unreasonable as it is
> >>> substantially different now.
>
> They call anywhere north of the Hennops "Tshwane" whether it is or it
> isn't. Pretoria is still Pretoria and always will be. I wish those SABC
> people would get it into their collectively stupid heads that Tshwane is
> the name of the metro council and not the geographical area. The Union
> Buildings are in Pretoria, not in Tshwane, so people reporting on
> television are reporting from Pretoria, not Tshwane, as they love to do.
suburb. When they report from, say, Rosebank, they still say that they
are reporting from Johannesburg.
>
> It appears the ANC will stop at nothing to enforce their will on the
> entire country, if not the entire continent, Gaddafi allowing it, of course.
>
> As to Hans Strijdom Drive now being called Malibongwe Drive is anyone's
> guess. I call it Balimongwe just to be amusing.
been changed.
>
> >>> Kimberly is only where it is because diamonds were discovered - so
> >>> there may not have been a settlement there prior to the arrival of the
> >>> prospectors.
> >>> I would think that there's a better case for renaming streets, places
> >>> or buildings that are named after apartheid-era leaders: John Vorster,
> >>> Hendrik Verwoerd and so on. Though I'd hope that they leave Jan Smuts
> >>> alone - he does not deserve to be placed in that company.
>
> Unless Jan Smuts Avenue becomes O R Tambo Avenue like the Airport.
> Fortunately FAJS will always remain FAJS irrespective of the physical
> name of the airport.
>
> >>> I thought it was a nice touch to rename DF Malan Drive after Beyers
> >>> Naude - though his name remains controversial in some quarters.
> >>> However the dust has settled now and nutters have stopped spraying
> >>> over the new name and painting the cemetery gates orange, white and
> >>> blue.
>
> Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
> they are up to ....?
>
> >> I guess this is one of the issues that has been laid to rest, I still can't
> >> help that guilty itch though. But I'm glad that some resolution seems to
> >> have been found, I can't help but think that we're too preoccupied with
> >> other tumultuous happenings of our government to worry about such "Small
> >> things"... It seems all it took was some time. Relative to other nations, we
> >> haven't had the same amount of time to consolidate democracy. I fear for our
> >> future, but i commend those who have brought us thus far. But are we really
> >> that worse off ??? I mean, other countries have to worry about tornadoes,
> >> sanctions, security threats, wars,pollution... All we seem to have are
> >> 'normal' humanitarian problems... AIDS, Crime, a bit of poverty(Corrupt
> >> officials are a worldwide phenomenon so i won't count them here)... I'm
> >> still a very young person with high ideals but, all things considered,
> >> should i count myself lucky to be born in SA ? Are We really so blind that
> >> we do not see what we have and instead engage in destructive nit picking ?
> >> South Africa, are we spoilt brats? :-o
>
> > Well, a lot of as are certainly spoilt! When you travel abroad and see
> > how fortunate we are compared to most of the planet that is quite
> > clear. Whether we're all brats is another question.
>
> It takes a brat to notice another brat, it also takes a reasonable
> person to see and identify a brat, especially a spoilt brat, and it
> takes a real brain-child to acknowledge that the ANC was, is and always
> will be a TERRORIST organisation hell-bent on doing their own
> destructive will.
Well there's a lot of presumption in there. Again it's reminiscent of
getting a little chat from some oompie back in the 70s. Oompie was
right. of course he was, but don't ask how he came to know what he
know - in fact don't ask anything.
I thought you looked a bit keen on the AWB further up this post. Don't
they qualify as a terrorist organisation?
Personally I find it a dodgy proposition calling some organisation or
another "terrorist". Because one man's terrorist is often another's
heroic freedom fighther. Which leads us to definitions. And that can
start making some heads of state a bit twitchy.
ProfQ
Bob Dubery wrote:
> On Sep 21, 11:20 pm, ProfQ <pse...@intelligence.info> wrote:
>> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>>> On Sep 16, 9:34 am, "Jace" <Jac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Bob Dubery" <megap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>> pretty much overdone. "Pretoria", the place, has not been renamed, but
>>>>> the municipal area has been - which is not that unreasonable as it is
>>>>> substantially different now.
>> They call anywhere north of the Hennops "Tshwane" whether it is or it
>> isn't. Pretoria is still Pretoria and always will be. I wish those SABC
>> people would get it into their collectively stupid heads that Tshwane is
>> the name of the metro council and not the geographical area. The Union
>> Buildings are in Pretoria, not in Tshwane, so people reporting on
>> television are reporting from Pretoria, not Tshwane, as they love to do.
> Are they incorrect though? Pretoria is within Tshwane, effectivly a
> suburb. When they report from, say, Rosebank, they still say that they
> are reporting from Johannesburg.
No, they are sort of correct - why do they not call Port Elizabeth
"Ibayhi" or Bloemfontein "Mangaung"? Some people think that the
geographic area of Pretoria is now the geographic area of Tshwane, where
is it not. Only the Metropolitan Council is Tshwane. The remainder of
the area is still Pretoria, and always will be. We have not heard Dr
Pallo Jordan issuing a proclamation from Parliament that the entire
geographical region formerly known as Pretoria is now called Tshwane,
unless I am mistaken and have missed it.
>> It appears the ANC will stop at nothing to enforce their will on the
>> entire country, if not the entire continent, Gaddafi allowing it, of course.
> What does that mean?
Well, I thought Mbeki wanted to be the president of Africa by the way he
was carrying on. More out of the country than in it. Doing more for the
foreigners than for his own people - and we all know who his "for all
our people" means - all black people - and probably all Xhosas too.
>> As to Hans Strijdom Drive now being called Malibongwe Drive is anyone's
>> guess. I call it Balimongwe just to be amusing.
> I thought it was a thoroughly objectionable name and I'm glad it's
> been changed.
Are you a South African, Bob? So what's wrong with Hans Strijdom? Is the
industrial park to be renamed "Malibongwe Park" too? What about renaming
Hans Schoeman, Ysterhout, John Vorster, C R Swardt, et.al.??
>>>>> Kimberly is only where it is because diamonds were discovered - so
>>>>> there may not have been a settlement there prior to the arrival of the
>>>>> prospectors.
>>>>> I would think that there's a better case for renaming streets, places
>>>>> or buildings that are named after apartheid-era leaders: John Vorster,
>>>>> Hendrik Verwoerd and so on. Though I'd hope that they leave Jan Smuts
>>>>> alone - he does not deserve to be placed in that company.
>> Unless Jan Smuts Avenue becomes O R Tambo Avenue like the Airport.
>> Fortunately FAJS will always remain FAJS irrespective of the physical
>> name of the airport.
>>
>>>>> I thought it was a nice touch to rename DF Malan Drive after Beyers
>>>>> Naude - though his name remains controversial in some quarters.
>>>>> However the dust has settled now and nutters have stopped spraying
>>>>> over the new name and painting the cemetery gates orange, white and
>>>>> blue.
>> Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
>> they are up to ....?
> Who cares?
No one, really, but it makes one a bit twitchy to use one of your words
wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
There is no presumption here whatsoever. Do you remember the Rhodesian
War of Independence in the 1970s? Do you remember the organisation
behind the war and all those atrocities committed in the name of
"freedom"? Do you remember all the wars on the African Continent since
1912? Most if not all have had some ANC involvement.
> I thought you looked a bit keen on the AWB further up this post. Don't
> they qualify as a terrorist organisation?
Not in the same breath as the ANC, Bob.
> Personally I find it a dodgy proposition calling some organisation or
> another "terrorist". Because one man's terrorist is often another's
> heroic freedom fighther. Which leads us to definitions. And that can
> start making some heads of state a bit twitchy.
Strange that it took the USA or UN so many years to take Mandela off the
list of terrorists.
But I guess we will always argue on this point. Chacun a sin gout!
Bob Dubery
named "Pretoria". Much of what was referred to as "Pretoria" was
accepted as such in common use, but was named something else. The same
applies to "Johnanesburg". The part of the city that actually had that
name was pretty small. There was a municipality named "Johannesburg"
but that did not conform to a specific geographic area.
So what was officially "Pretoria" still is.
>
> >> It appears the ANC will stop at nothing to enforce their will on the
> >> entire country, if not the entire continent, Gaddafi allowing it, of course.
> > What does that mean?
>
> Well, I thought Mbeki wanted to be the president of Africa by the way he
> was carrying on. More out of the country than in it.
On various diplomatic missions he had been assigned to. This was no
secret. And only last week he was in SA and appeared at an Imbizo.
>Doing more for the
> foreigners than for his own people - and we all know who his "for all
> our people" means - all black people - and probably all Xhosas too.
Mbeki isn't a Xhosa. And you're putting words into his mouth. And he
has a cabinet at home to run various parts of the countries. You don't
think that Dubya manages every single government task in the USA do
you? Or that Brown runs Britain without delegating any tasks to his
cabinet?
>
> >> As to Hans Strijdom Drive now being called Malibongwe Drive is anyone's
> >> guess. I call it Balimongwe just to be amusing.
> > I thought it was a thoroughly objectionable name and I'm glad it's
> > been changed.
>
> Are you a South African, Bob? So what's wrong with Hans Strijdom? Is the
> industrial park to be renamed "Malibongwe Park" too? What about renaming
> Hans Schoeman, Ysterhout, John Vorster, C R Swardt, et.al.??
Strijdom succeeded Malan. He moved Malan's vision of apartheid along,
removing coloured people from the common voting role that they'd long
been on. He was quite overt about his desire to entrench white
minority rule in SA. Laws passed while he was PM further reduced the
rights of non-white citizens and laid the foundations on which
Verwoerd would build. Clearly monuments bearing such names are
offensive to many South Africans.
> >> Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
> >> they are up to ....?
> > Who cares?
>
> No one, really, but it makes one a bit twitchy to use one of your words
> wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
The AWB were always a rabble. Why anybody thinks they're in some way
desirable is beyond me. Racist bully boys - no more.
Well there certainly wasn't much in the way of facts.
> Do you remember the Rhodesian
> War of Independence in the 1970s? Do you remember the organisation
> behind the war and all those atrocities committed in the name of
> "freedom"? Do you remember all the wars on the African Continent since
> 1912? Most if not all have had some ANC involvement.
What? The ANC had involvement with the Rhodesian army? Or is it only
black liberation forces that commit "atrocities"? It's a useful word.
You can always load a message with the word "atrocities" and never
have to spell anything out. But you should. What were the actual
actions that were "atrocities"? Who committed them? Did only that
particular party in the war commit such acts?
As I understand it, MK linked themselves to Nkomo and thus with Zipra.
That being the case, and putting aside the argument about what
actually is an "atrocity", it's clear that MK cannot have been
involved in every unpleasant incident in that war - though I suppose
they may have been on the receiving end of a few. And it certainly
wasn't MK or Zipra that engaged in biological warfare.
>
> > I thought you looked a bit keen on the AWB further up this post. Don't
> > they qualify as a terrorist organisation?
>
> Not in the same breath as the ANC, Bob.
How so? They set off bombs, they used armed force. They set off the
BIGGEST, most lethal bomb in this country didn't they? And they didn't
really have much of a cause. It's not like they were disenfranchised,
denied participation in the political system or had the government
trying to resettle them in bogus "states".
>
> > Personally I find it a dodgy proposition calling some organisation or
> > another "terrorist". Because one man's terrorist is often another's
> > heroic freedom fighther. Which leads us to definitions. And that can
> > start making some heads of state a bit twitchy.
>
> Strange that it took the USA or UN so many years to take Mandela off the
> list of terrorists.
Definitions of terrorism are notoriously tricky and often subjective.
By some definitions the USA is a terrorist state. Some Irish people
might consider the British government to have supported terrorism.
Bodie
notice another brat, it also takes a reasonable
> person to see and identify a brat, especially a spoilt brat, and it
> takes a real brain-child to acknowledge that the ANC was, is and always
> will be a TERRORIST organisation hell-bent on doing their own
> destructive will.
Can do nothing except agree 100% with that last statement.
Bodie.
--
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have
hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything
else thereafter. You will meet them doing various things with resolve, but
their interest rarely holds because after the other thing ordinary life is
as flat as the taste of wine when the taste buds have been burned off your
tongue."
Hemingway.
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> > wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
>
> The AWB were always a rabble. Why anybody thinks they're in some way
> desirable is beyond me. Racist bully boys - no more.
>
it's a little unfair to call them a 'rabble'. All Fascists are
actually quite snappy dressers, that's one way you can tell that they
are fascists.
>
> Definitions of terrorism are notoriously tricky and often subjective.
> By some definitions the USA is a terrorist state. Some Irish people
> might consider the British government to have supported terrorism.
>
doesn't include Yankland as a terrorist state and long time exporter
of terrorism. Pom too, as you say. The US and Pom are the largest
exporters of weapons for a start, with the Frogs only a gnat's winkle
away.
ProfQ
Then why does every SABC reporter say they are reporting from Tshwane,
and not Pretoria?
Oh please! Monuments. Monuments are monuments, cities, roads, rivers,
bridges, freeways are totally different.
So why is George Airport still known as PW Botha Airport? Die Ou
Krokodil was one of the most vehement apartheid promoters.
>>>> Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
>>>> they are up to ....?
>>> Who cares?
>> No one, really, but it makes one a bit twitchy to use one of your words
>> wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
> The AWB were always a rabble. Why anybody thinks they're in some way
> desirable is beyond me. Racist bully boys - no more.
Yes, and so is/are the ANC - RACIST BULLY BOYS & girls. Racism was never
more rife in South Africa than it is under the ANC domination.
Employment Equity is nothing more than RACISM, and Affirmative Action is
nothing more than APARTHEID, practised differently, but the same
principles apply. I had nothing whatsoever to do with the previous
regime in this country but I have to suffer the consequences of the
previous government's and our parents' era?! Huh? That's not fair. I
have never had a government of MY CHOICE. I was born into apartheid and
then I have to live under the RACIST (et.al) ANC rule. So when will MY
vote be heard?
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT "RHODESIAN ARMY"? I SAID "RHODESIAN WAR" Where
were you in 1974 when we who lived in PRETORIA saw countless photographs
of the atrocities committed by the ANC in Rhodesia and Mozambique.
> As I understand it, MK linked themselves to Nkomo and thus with Zipra.
> That being the case, and putting aside the argument about what
> actually is an "atrocity", it's clear that MK cannot have been
> involved in every unpleasant incident in that war - though I suppose
> they may have been on the receiving end of a few. And it certainly
> wasn't MK or Zipra that engaged in biological warfare.
The "atrocities" of the previous government of South Africa NEVER
committed such heinous atrocities as those committed by the ANC.
>>> I thought you looked a bit keen on the AWB further up this post. Don't
>>> they qualify as a terrorist organisation?
>> Not in the same breath as the ANC, Bob.
> How so? They set off bombs, they used armed force. They set off the
> BIGGEST, most lethal bomb in this country didn't they? And they didn't
> really have much of a cause. It's not like they were disenfranchised,
> denied participation in the political system or had the government
> trying to resettle them in bogus "states".
>>> Personally I find it a dodgy proposition calling some organisation or
>>> another "terrorist". Because one man's terrorist is often another's
>>> heroic freedom fighther. Which leads us to definitions. And that can
>>> start making some heads of state a bit twitchy.
>> Strange that it took the USA or UN so many years to take Mandela off the
>> list of terrorists.
> Definitions of terrorism are notoriously tricky and often subjective.
> By some definitions the USA is a terrorist state. Some Irish people
> might consider the British government to have supported terrorism.
I am not talking about Britain or IRA-sponsored terrorism, Bob. I am not
qualified or experienced to talk about that, and I am not being
subjective either. I am stating my point of view as I see things, having
been in this country for the past 55 years.
ProfQ
and Peter H.M. Brooks do not.
Bob Dubery
wrote:
> On Sep 24, 9:17 am, Bob Dubery <megap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
>
> > The AWB were always a rabble. Why anybody thinks they're in some way
> > desirable is beyond me. Racist bully boys - no more.
>
> They might not all be very good at staying on horses, but I think that
> it's a little unfair to call them a 'rabble'. All Fascists are
> actually quite snappy dressers, that's one way you can tell that they
> are fascists.
your lack of practical experience of military life has left you with
unresolved fantasies involving insignia, epaulettes and button-down
pockets.
> Unless specifically excluded it'd be hard to find any definition that
> doesn't include Yankland as a terrorist state and long time exporter
> of terrorism.
Guess who didn't sign up when the UN were trying to get consensus on
definitions of "terrorism" and "state sponsored terrorism"?
> Pom too, as you say.
There's less of a case there.
The T-word is generally used subjectively. Bobby Sands was a
terrorist to some, a freedom fighter to others.
> The US and Pom are the largest
> exporters of weapons for a start, with the Frogs only a gnat's winkle
> away.
Participation in the arms trade isn't terrorism.
Bob Dubery
<snip>
> Oh please! Monuments. Monuments are monuments, cities, roads, rivers,
> bridges, freeways are totally different.
of the word "monument". It seems clear to me that building a statue
of some bigwig and naming a road after some bigwig have the same
intent - to honor and to preserve the name of said bigwig.
>
> So why is George Airport still known as PW Botha Airport? Die Ou
> Krokodil was one of the most vehement apartheid promoters.
sometimes wonder why DF Malan drive has been renamed whilst John
Vorster drive has not. I suppose it indicates that there is a process
at work, that renaming is not simply arbitrary.
I would hope that the long term view is taken. It would be a bit
embarrasing now to be living in Thabo Mbeki avenue.
>
> >>>> Good for them. But the AWB has been very quiet of late. I wonder what
> >>>> they are up to ....?
> >>> Who cares?
> >> No one, really, but it makes one a bit twitchy to use one of your words
> >> wondering what they are up to. Silence doesn't always mean inactivity.
> > The AWB were always a rabble. Why anybody thinks they're in some way
> > desirable is beyond me. Racist bully boys - no more.
>
> Yes, and so is/are the ANC - RACIST BULLY BOYS & girls.
So why admire one and decry the other?
Assuming, of course, that you're right. The ANC has long been a non-
racial organisation. The AWB wouldn't even let just anybody with a
claim to being an Afrikaner join. Beyers Naude and Carl Niehaus would
certainly not have been welcome.
> Racism was never
> more rife in South Africa than it is under the ANC domination.
Crap! The ANC are not seeking to deprive people of citizenship or the
franchise on the basis of race. They are not trying to create bogus
"independent states" and force people into being citizens of said
states. They are not denying participation in the political system on
the basis of race.
> Employment Equity is nothing more than RACISM, and Affirmative Action is
> nothing more than APARTHEID, practised differently, but the same
> principles apply.
There's a case that such policies are necessary to correct what was
done in the past.
> I had nothing whatsoever to do with the previous
> regime in this country
Which explains your admiration for the AWB and your seeing no problem
with the likes of Strijdom....
I am always amazed that we had 40 odd years of Nat rule. You can never
find anybody who supported them or voted for them.
> but I have to suffer the consequences of the
> previous government's and our parents' era?! Huh? That's not fair. I
> have never had a government of MY CHOICE. I was born into apartheid and
> then I have to live under the RACIST (et.al) ANC rule. So when will MY
> vote be heard?
Did you cast your vote?
Let me tell you the truth about democracy: Everybody has a vote. Not
everybody gets what they want.
<snip>
> > What? The ANC had involvement with the Rhodesian army? Or is it only
> > black liberation forces that commit "atrocities"? It's a useful word.
> > You can always load a message with the word "atrocities" and never
> > have to spell anything out. But you should. What were the actual
> > actions that were "atrocities"? Who committed them? Did only that
> > particular party in the war commit such acts?
>
> WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT "RHODESIAN ARMY"? I SAID "RHODESIAN WAR"
And you don't think the Rhodesian Army were involved in that? Wars
usually have two sides.
Where
> were you in 1974 when we who lived in PRETORIA saw countless photographs
> of the atrocities committed by the ANC in Rhodesia and Mozambique.
Ah... so you were living in Pretoria in 1974 reading newspapers? That
poses some interesting questions regarding your earlier protestations
about Apartheid being something to do with your parents.
I was in Durban at the time, since you ask.
>
> > As I understand it, MK linked themselves to Nkomo and thus with Zipra.
> > That being the case, and putting aside the argument about what
> > actually is an "atrocity", it's clear that MK cannot have been
> > involved in every unpleasant incident in that war - though I suppose
> > they may have been on the receiving end of a few. And it certainly
> > wasn't MK or Zipra that engaged in biological warfare.
>
> The "atrocities" of the previous government of South Africa NEVER
> committed such heinous atrocities as those committed by the ANC.
Debatable. But your point was that the ANC were involved in "most, if
not all" atrocities. Clearly they cannot have been. And there was that
question you asked about the organisation behind that war. It
certainly was not the ANC. Take your pick of ZANU, ZAPU or the Smith
regime. The ANC allied themselves with ZAPU, they were NOT the
organisation that initiated that war.
>
>
>
> >>> I thought you looked a bit keen on the AWB further up this post. Don't
> >>> they qualify as a terrorist organisation?
> >> Not in the same breath as the ANC, Bob.
> > How so? They set off bombs, they used armed force. They set off the
> > BIGGEST, most lethal bomb in this country didn't they? And they didn't
> > really have much of a cause. It's not like they were disenfranchised,
> > denied participation in the political system or had the government
> > trying to resettle them in bogus "states".
> >>> Personally I find it a dodgy proposition calling some organisation or
> >>> another "terrorist". Because one man's terrorist is often another's
> >>> heroic freedom fighther. Which leads us to definitions. And that can
> >>> start making some heads of state a bit twitchy.
> >> Strange that it took the USA or UN so many years to take Mandela off the
> >> list of terrorists.
> > Definitions of terrorism are notoriously tricky and often subjective.
> > By some definitions the USA is a terrorist state. Some Irish people
> > might consider the British government to have supported terrorism.
>
> I am not talking about Britain or IRA-sponsored terrorism, Bob. I am not
> qualified or experienced to talk about ...
All of this goes to the definition of "terrorism". You seem to have
had no trouble in labelling the ANC as terrorists, in fact have said
they still are a terrorist organisation, but also seem to have not
considered the fact that the AWB were involved in terrorism. The term
is too often used subjectively, and it's often the case that one man's
terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
If you start seeking an objective definition of "terrorism", does
this, commits these kinds of acts under such-and-such conditions, then
the waters get very murky indeed.
Bob Dubery
> I am not talking about Britain or IRA-sponsored terrorism, Bob. I am not
> qualified or experienced to talk about that, and I am not being
> subjective either. I am stating my point of view as I see things, having
> been in this country for the past 55 years.
There's that time line slipping again.
Roger Conroy
The definition of terrorism that I like best is one that leaves motive or
objective out of the equation and only considers methods and actions.
If an organisation uses deliberate violence against defenceless people
(civilians) to promote a political cause it is a terrorist organisation.
What their motive or cause is and who they attack does not matter at all
thus the "But I'm a freedom fighter" defence is invalid.
Roger Conroy
Bob
You seem to be using an extremely narrow definition of racism.
Bob Dubery
wrote:
> The definition of terrorism that I like best is one that leaves motive or
> objective out of the equation and only considers methods and actions.
> If an organisation uses deliberate violence against defenceless people
> (civilians) to promote a political cause it is a terrorist organisation.
Hmmm... that makes Churchill's war cabinet terrorists, as well as
Johnson and Nixon and possibly Kennedy. Oh... and who ordered the
dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan?
> What their motive or cause is and who they attack does not matter at all
> thus the "But I'm a freedom fighter" defence is invalid.
Well there's still the problem of what is a "political cause".
Bob Dubery
wrote:
> You seem to be using an extremely narrow definition of racism.
Since you've quoted an entire post and then included one sentence
directly after a passage that deals with the definition of terrorism
then I'm not sure what point of mine (or anybody else's) you're
addressing here.
Bodie
> > "ProfQ" <pse...@intelligence.info> wrote in message> It takes a brat to
> > notice another brat, it also takes a reasonable
> >> person to see and identify a brat, especially a spoilt brat, and it
> >> takes a real brain-child to acknowledge that the ANC was, is and always
> >> will be a TERRORIST organisation hell-bent on doing their own
> >> destructive will.
> >
> >
> > Can do nothing except agree 100% with that last statement.
> >
> > Bodie.
"ProfQ" <pse...@intelligence.info> wrote in message
news:gbdu3o$lm3$2...@registered.motzarella.org...
> Thanks, Bodie, it's nice to have someone's support, even if Bob Dubery
> and Peter H.M. Brooks do not.
A pleasure, especially as it's correct.
Well Bob one can understand, he ................. erm ...... let him fire
the first shot.
I have not read one of his posts in absolute ages.
Brooks is another kettle of fish altogether.
He knows absolutely nothing Battle Group 61 but I bet you he has an opinion.
Let's see.
*lol*
Bodie.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Sep 25, 4:45 pm, "Roger Conroy" <rogerconroy.nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The definition of terrorism that I like best is one that leaves motive or
> > objective out of the equation and only considers methods and actions.
> > If an organisation uses deliberate violence against defenceless people
> > (civilians) to promote a political cause it is a terrorist organisation.
>
> Hmmm... that makes Churchill's war cabinet terrorists, as well as
> Johnson and Nixon and possibly Kennedy. Oh... and who ordered the
> dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan?
>
popular activity.
ProfQ
people can avoid adding their own agendas into what I am saying or
trying to say. Everyone thinks that what I write is open to
interpretation. Here is something that isn't. You may agree or disagree,
but not insert your own agenda. My friend, a professor of public law,
writes:
WHY A JUDICIAL ENQUIRY INTO THE ARMS DEAL IS ESSENTIAL
Intense political pressure is mounting for a judicial commission of
enquiry to investigate allegations of fraud and corruption in relation
to the R60 billion arms procurement deal, in the wake of judge Chris
Nicholson’s watershed judgment and his recommendation that a probe was
indeed necessary to clear the country of an “ever present cloud of
suspicion and scandal”.
The present political and constitutional crisis in which the country has
been engulfed and embroiled has its genesis in the arms procurement
debacle. Jacob Zuma’s prosecution relates essentially to alleged fraud
and corruption involving the suppliers of arms and to his financial
advisor, Shabir Shaik’s, conviction in this regard.
Unfortunately the ANC and its leadership has until now strenuously
resisted the setting up of such a commission. Failure to grasp the
metaphorical nettle and institute such an enquiry will result in our
body politic being prejudicially affected by dangerous rumours and
allegations of corruption and dishonesty in government and high places.
Unless we lance the boil, our system of government and administration
will continue to be hampered and detrimentally affected by the arms
procurement scandal. This is both a moral and practical issue and
impacts in a very real way on service delivery and performance by
government and cannot be dealt with in a piece meal way by means of
merely selective prosecutions as has occurred until now.
Such an enquiry would have a cathartic effect and allow our leaders and
government to proceed boldly with both service delivery and far more
dynamic and innovative government, which is sadly lacking at present. It
is of vital importance that the leaders, government and people of South
Africa take an unequivocal stand against corruption, which has become
malignant in our administration and body politic. We cannot do this
unless we confront honestly and transparently the arms deal saga.
According to the Constitution, only the President can appoint a
commission of enquiry. It is to be fervently hoped that the new incoming
administration, under President Kgalema Motlanthe will exercise this
right and appoint the Commission. He is by reputation a person of
integrity and insight and needs to demonstrate this to the nation in
regard to the arms deal debacle. This will not be an easy thing for him
to do, as he is likely to face considerable opposition from within the
ANC and government itself in this regard.
When the ANC came to power in 1994 it manifestly occupied the moral high
ground. The arms scandal has severely obliterated this state of affairs.
Our politics has subsequently been bedeviled by this scandal and
corruption. At this juncture in our history South Africa sorely needs
bold and fearless leadership. The appointment of an enquiry would
indicate that we are prepared to deal in a determined manner with the
inordinate problems that confront us as a nation. Its effect would be
manifestly cathartic and we could then continue on the path of healing
in our nation which is inchoate at present.
It is not only leaders of the opposition parties, such as Patricia de
Lille and Helen Zille that have called for such a probe, but also
persons of the standing such as judge Nicholson and Archbishop Emeritus
Desmond Tutu, who in many respects represents the conscience of the
nation, who has made an impassioned plea in this regard.
South Africans, having achieved and created a democratic system of
government at a sublimely great cost, need to robustly protect this
system of government against corruption and dishonesty. Furthermore, it
needs to be defended against the predations of those in the existing
body politic, who resist transparent and honest government because they
are power-hungry and unscrupulous. Political integrity and principle
must triumph over political expediency and naked ambition, bearinmind
the famous words of Lord Acton that ‘power tends to corrupt and
absolute power corrupts absolutely’. We must therefore expose and resist
vigorously the attempt to prevent an enquiry into the arms procurement
saga and demand what is both morally and politically essential for us to
make progress as a nation.
Bob Dubery
> Good points, Bob, but clearly I do not express myself in a manner that
> people can avoid adding their own agendas into what I am saying or
> trying to say.
subject. As you have here.
Plus there seem to be some contradictions in your posts of late.
Nobody's perfect, but if you don't try to provide clarification then
you can't moan about a lack of clarity, and if you don't answer
questions then people will draw conclusions from that too.
ProfQ
marika
> Hmmm... that makes Churchill's war cabinet terrorists, as well as
> Johnson and Nixon and possibly Kennedy. Oh... and who ordered the
> dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan?
>
That was mean considering the nice cherry trees they gave the US.
Having survived another Cherry Blossom festival in DC (my 7th but I am
talking about the 3rd one now, I
cannot believe
it), I was wondering if my lawn was getting mowed.
I left a message on my lawn mowing guy's machine back in March when I
stopped by and
just like every
year I expected that he would magically show up even though he never
called back.
I hoped that the 3rd year would be so as well. I visited the house a month
before I called. anyway, if the guy really has started up, I expected he
would throw a
bill in the box
sometime in May or June. So I asked my neighboris if they happened to be
walking by the
mailbox, and happened
to notice a bill. Just email me the $ amount. I never did notice - my
neighbor told me - that he'd been there mowing twice already.
So much for lawn noticing.
That year, I could not get the mail to be delivered automatically.
They decided
that I had to put a 100 dollars down for forwarding. Then they forward
once a week by
express mail. This was getting really really old.
on the one hand I hated not being home, but it ended up ok because I ended
up working that year for the top dog in this house.
and I got to look at those cherry trees four more years now. Lousy
terrorists.
mk5000
"My pension is imaginary...
It won't be there in 20 years.
If I can't take physical possession of my
pension then it is not real."--Absalom