[ADMIN] Latest iCloud Status and technical background

[Rich Siegel]

Recently, and with increasing frequency, developers have been
speaking out about the difficulties they’ve had trying to
implement support for iCloud in their products, and journalists
have been reporting the news. I told our story to Ars Technica,
and they’ve made their own report:

<http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/03/frustrated-with-icloud-apples-developer-community-speaks-up-en-masse/>

I have written a blog post which provides the background
information behind our contributions to the Ars article:

<http://rms2.tumblr.com/post/46505165521/the-gathering-storm-our-travails-with-icloud-sync>

The iCloud status page on our web site is being updated with
this same information: <http://barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html>.

R.
--
Rich Siegel Bare Bones Software, Inc.
<sie...@barebones.com> <http://www.barebones.com/>

Someday I'll look back on all this and laugh... until they
sedate me.

[muondude]

Rich:

I can only imagine the frustration at Bare Bones over this situation. 

My whole family uses Yojimbo and find it a very useful product.  We miss syncing very much!

I read your post and the other pages.  But don't get a sense of the "way forward".
It would seem that there are two options:
1. Stay with iCloud sync for Yojimblo, expected release date, well who knows?  (we are getting very close to 1 year since mobleme sunset)
2. Use another sync method/service:  What are the various options? Impact on BB as a developer and the users?  Time to release?

I have no plans for dropping Yojimbo since I don't see an alternative I'm happy with and I like your product.

I would support BB efforts to "speak with your feet" and tell Apple - we are dumping iCloud sync and moving to X.
What do other companies use for sync that don't use iCloud?

From my perspective I would like a sync method that is secure and reliable (of course the balancing of security and performance is always a challenge).
I realize this is a "duh" statement.  But if BB can find an alternative to iCloud sync that would allow a timely return of Yojimbo sync we would all be much happier.

Again, I appreciate all the hard work everyone at BB has done to resolve this issue but perhaps it is time to move forward with a viable solution.

-- Sam
BBEdit user since V2!

[Brian Brown-Cashdollar]

I appreciate the candor in your blog post. So the big question is: Where to from here? I don't think it's reasonable to expect Apple to suddenly start documenting their products properly. Hell, I remember they rewrote how 10.2 server handled  DNS and didn't tell anyone. In Apple's world, less is more. So understanding that Apple will in all likelihood continue to be Apple, do you continue to wait at the alter or move on? Hell the smartest thing Apple could do is make mobile me sync available as a stopgap for iCloud until they get core data documented and working. Good luck!

[Yvan Rahbé]

Thanks to Rich for the links that make the whole story more understandable to endusers like me.

My problem is very similar to Sam's. I am a BBedit and Yojimbo user since precambrian times, and do not see why I should change.

I am mainly using Yoj for S/N and password storage, so I have no need for big data storage. But I fully understand some do. Mine is only a small drawer. This said, you also understand why security problems (both  at "securing access" and "securing data" levels) are important... Though syncing is cricial as well, because, well,... /...  I am still moving a little bit !

I understand that the problem comes from Core Data, and I am really "astonished" to hear that all Apple product do not even use Core Data yet for their own needs (instead webcal and webdav for "item-level" syncing in ical and alike). But I am probably still candid. 

Anyway, I really thank Rich for informing the customers (in French we say clients) through the two blog links. This is really what I expect from a fair relationship between a customer and its "furnisher" (still candid, no ?).

Thanks again, including for continuing your struggle with core data... (some customers need it, unless Apple discard it itself ?)

PS: I am a dropbox user, and very happy with it; but for different reasons, I did not turn on the turnaround yet... it does not fulfill the full needs for my use of Yojimbo (5 mobile devices and need for security...)

Yvan

[tacitus]

I too appreciate Rich's post, but the question remains: Where to from here?  Are BB persisting in trying to make iCloud support work, something which in the short to medium term appears a forlorn hope.  Or, are they likely to strike out and implement their own sync, perhaps using their own servers in much the same way Omni have done with Omnifocus.

Not a very good place for Rich and BareBones to be, but decisions will have to be made pretty soon on which way they are going.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 13:27 -0700 04/02/2013, Brian Brown-Cashdollar wrote:
>I appreciate the candor in your blog post. So the big question is: Where

>to from here? [...]

and

At 01:48 -0700 04/15/2013, tacitus wrote:
>I too appreciate Rich's post, but the question remains: Where to from
>here? Are BB persisting in trying to make iCloud support work, something
>which in the short to medium term appears a forlorn hope. Or, are they
>likely to strike out and implement their own sync, perhaps using their own
>servers in much the same way Omni have done with Omnifocus.

To recap Rich :-), we will a) continue working with Apple on resolving the
technical problems we've encountered in iCloud, while also b) re-visiting
and evaluating other potential solutions.

(NB: Per the latter, I doubt we'll pursue a completely in-house solution
though can't completely rule that out.)


Meanwhile, we greatly appreciate your continued patience.


Regards,

Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc. <http://www.barebones.com/>

[tacitus]

Hi Patrick:

Thanks for the reply.  I'm sure Rich and the gang would like to make iCloud work but all the indications are that it's going to be a very long and arduous task and at some point someone will wonder whether it's worth the bother.  Hence my view that other options will need to be considered, if they aren't already.  

I'm unlikely to dump Yojimbo since for what I do it fits the bill and the current sync mode does at least work.

Best,

Tac

[Daniel Lord]

I switched to Evernote in frustration last year for data that doesn't need a lot of security. And VoodooPad for that which does. Voodoo Pad (and several other products) sue DropBox for synching. Sure I rather use Yojimbo and iCloud than Dropbox, but iCloud is not realistically an option now is it? OmniGroup uses their own server for OmniFocus sync and that's fine too. Just pick something that is reasonably secure and works right now. I miss Yojimbo but I and finding it difficult to migrate back without web based synching across my desktop, laptop, iPad, and iPhone. Seriously. Please implement something soon.

On Thursday, March 28, 2013 7:19:21 AM UTC-7, Rich Siegel wrote:

[Rhet Turnbull]

I've switched to Evernote for anything that doesn't need to be secure and LastPass for anything that does.  Neither is as easy to learn/elegant as Yojimbo was when it first came out but synching "just works" and works across all my devices (even non-Apple devices).  I'm not going back to Yojimbo.  I still have data I haven't migrated out of Yojimbo yet so it still sits in my Dock but no new data goes in.  Evernote took some getting used to but if you don't need to worry about security, Evernote is much more powerful and useful (to me, at least) than Yojimbo ever was.  I do give kudos for building in an easy export mechanism into Yojimbo so I could get my data out (and ability to script Yojimbo to automate the export).  That's one of the reasons I originally bought Yojimbo back in 2006.  And the Evernote and LastPass "taxes" for premium accounts are still less than what Apple used to charge for .Mac/MobileMe (I subscribed to these for the sole reason of synching Yojimbo).

 

There are other issues with iCloud too.  I wouldn't use it for anything, even if BareBones gets synching working there.  For example, turning off iCloud on the Mac deletes any documents that were stored in the Cloud.  This is very non-intuitive and certainly not what the average user would expect.  I don't know if CoreData synching would do the same but I'm convinced that Apple doesn't "get" the cloud.  Dropbox isn't perfect but, again, it "just works" (and isn't limited to Apple devices).

 

Cheers,

Rhet

 

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[Patrick Woolsey]

At 12:17 -0700 06/30/2013, Daniel Lord wrote:

> Sure I rather use Yojimbo and iCloud than Dropbox, but iCloud is not
> realistically an option now is it?

Correct, not today.


>[...] Just pick something that is reasonably secure and works right

>now. I miss Yojimbo but I and finding it difficult to migrate back without
>web based synching across my desktop, laptop, iPad, and iPhone. Seriously.
>Please implement something soon.

That is what we're currently working toward, and thanks for your continued

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 21:18 +0430 07/02/2013, Rhet Turnbull wrote:
> I've switched to Evernote for anything that doesn't need to be secure

> and LastPass for anything that does. [...]

Under the circumstances, I do understand your choice though regret to hear
that.


Also, per the following:

> There are other issues with iCloud too. I wouldn't use it for anything,
> even if BareBones gets synching working there. For example, turning off

> iCloud on the Mac deletes any documents that were stored in the Cloud. [...]

We're also aware of this issue and would have worked around it at need (as
Rich described in his iCloud post).

[NovaScotian]

A dropbox solution would work perfectly if there were some means of quitting Yojimbo running on a main machine from an iPad or laptop that was away from home. I tend to leave Yojimbo running on my iMac all the time because I like the on screen tab but if I forget to quit, then I can't make additions from another machine.

[David A.]

On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:50:53 -0700 (PDT), NovaScotian
<acb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A dropbox solution would work perfectly if there were some means of
>quitting Yojimbo running on a main machine from an iPad or laptop that was
>away from home. I tend to leave Yojimbo running on my iMac all the time
>because I like the on screen tab but if I forget to quit, then I can't make
>additions from another machine.

There are ways around that. Make a specific folder in your dropbox.
Create a folder action script on your desktop that watches for files
in that folder. When a file shows up with the name "killyo", for
example, have the script shut down Yojimbo then remove the file. On
your laptop you just touch a file named killyo in that folder and when
it disappears a few seconds later you know that Yojimbo is down. I've
done this and it worked well.

[NovaScotian]

Clever idea. I think I'd be inclined to use Hazel to do that (Folder Actions can be flakey) but I'll set that up now.

[David Dierauer]

David,

I'd be very interested to see your script; sounds like it would make
my life a lot easier.

-David

--
David Dierauer
Software Engineer
da...@dierauer.net

[Bill]

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:48:45 AM UTC-7, Rhet wrote:

... For example, turning off iCloud on the Mac deletes any documents that were stored in the Cloud.  This is very non-intuitive and certainly not what the average user would expect.  I don't know if CoreData synching would do the same but I'm convinced that Apple doesn't "get" the cloud.  Dropbox isn't perfect but, again, it "just works" (and isn't limited to Apple devices).

This is simply not true.  Turning off syncing on any machine (OS X or iOS) deletes NOTHING from the cloud.  On a Mac, the files are still also on your computer.  They directory is simply renamed (from ~/Library/Mobile Documents to ~/Library/Mobile Documents/XXXX where XXXX is a key based on your iCloud ID).  If you sign back in, the directory is moved back, and voila, everything is back in place.

The case where multiple users use the SAME OS X account and DIFFERENT iCloud IDs is accounted for by iCloud.  Whether this is sane and sensible, I don't know, but it (mostly) works.  Obviously, the devil is in the details here.

I've personally been using iCloud for document syncing (a la Dropbox) for 1 1/2 years now.  It largely works just fine.  The Core Data integration has been more problematic, and is the one that's been a well-publicized challenge for many developers, but again it's a very ambitious effort which provides something very different to what Dropbox and other file syncing solutions offer.  It appears the first cut at it was perhaps "too" ambitious for its time, but that doesn't mean it won't improve.  And it also doesn't mean that it affects iCloud document or key value syncing in any way.  To refer to them as the same simply shows you're unaware of how these technologies work. 

[Rhet Turnbull]

Hi Bill,

>>To refer to them as the same simply shows you're unaware of how these technologies work. 

I didn't refer to them as the same.  As a hobbyist software developer, I certainly understand the difference between synching a file and synching structured data and have even rolled my own synching architectures in the past. (Though I don't claim to understand iCloud's synching architecture).  My point was that, at least for files, iCloud does something not-intuitive for the user (more on that in a second) and given the history of .Mac, MobileMe, iCloud fiascos (I've been a customer of all 3) I don't trust Apple to get it right.  

>This is simply not true.  ... ~/Library/Mobile Documents/XXXX where XXXX is a key based on your iCloud ID). 

From the average user's perspective, this is as good as deleting them.  Use case: User buys a new Mac and installs Pages which by default stores files in iCloud.  User creates a bunch of Pages files (stored in the cloud).  For some reason, user wants/needs to delete to disable iCloud account.  Poof.  All their files will have appeared to disappear.  Spotlight won't find them buried in a hidden library folder nor will the average user know where to look for them.  The fact that the files are physically on the computer still is not relevant -- to the user, they're gone.  

My point in bringing this up was that if Apple applies the same thought process to iCloud CoreData storage (again, I don't know if they do) then the same thing would happen to your Yojimbo data and any other app relying on CoreData synching.      By contrast, if I delete my Dropbox account, my files are still where I left them, in a Dropbox folder on my machine and I can continue to access files as before.

So here's hoping that Dropbox expands the reach of their new data synching API and that, like file synching, they get it right (and cross-platform).  Even die-hard iCloud fans should cheer on Dropbox and others trying to deploy cloud synching architectures because it'll give Apple competition to make iCloud work better.  As for me, I'm not putting any mission critical data back into an Apple-controlled cloud. 

Cheers,

Rhet

--

[mpmchugh]

I use a great little app called Scenario that let's you have scripts run on system evens like Screensaver Start or System Sleep. I key everything off screensaver start, as it's something I have set on all my Macs the same. So on Screensaver Start, I just have Scenario run a Quit Apps script that quits the apps I have synced via Dropbox (that don't have native support), i.e. Yojimbo and Delicious Library:

tell application "Yojimbo"

quit

end tell

tell application "Delicious Library 3"

quit

end tell

Works pretty well for me.

Scenario: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/scenario/id423444193?mt=12

-Michael

[mpmchugh]

I use a great little app called Scenario that let's you have scripts run on system evens like Screensaver Start or System Sleep. I key everything off screensaver start, as it's something I have set on all my Macs the same. So on Screensaver Start, I just have Scenario run a Quit Apps script that quits the apps I have synced via Dropbox (that don't have native support), i.e. Yojimbo and Delicious Library:

tell application "Yojimbo"

quit

end tell

tell application "Delicious Library 3"

quit

end tell

Works pretty well for me.

Here's Scenario: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/scenario/id423444193?mt=12

-Michael

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 10:25:35 AM UTC-7, GrumpyDave wrote: