Disappointment

[Rob Jackson]

To the Yojimbo Team:

Just want to express my disappointment that you did not make your self imposed June 30th deadline.  I am not going to threaten to stop using the software or call anyone names, or anything like that.  I understand things come up and sometimes things don't work out as planned.  And it is just software after all. However, this icloud compatible version is something that you have been espousing for over 6 months. I would think that wold be plenty of time for a crack software company like Barebones to accomplish. I have been following this closely, but from the sidelines.  I suspect that I am not the only one who has been doing so and is also disappointed.

That said, please push an iCloud version of Yojimbo as soon as you can, or if you have other plans, please let us know as soon as possible so your users can make alternative plans.

Thanks.

- Rob

[Bryan Bagwell]

+1 on the disappointment.  The sun has set.  I'm sure there are many people ready to blame Apple's app approval process, but this is Bare Bones dropping the ball and nothing less.  I am shocked that they were not able to deliver within the stated time frame given the amount of time they had.

[Terry J Fundak]

+ 1

_______________________________________

Terry J Fundak

Systems Engineer

Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000

(415) 877-1783

te...@tjsoftworks.com

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[Steve Nicholson]

On Jul 1, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Rob Jackson wrote:

> However, this icloud compatible version is something that you have been espousing for over 6 months. I would think that wold be plenty of time for a crack software company like Barebones to accomplish.

My gut feeling is that this is much more a reflection on the inadequacies of iCloud's sync support than it is of BB's programming skills. Apple created a situation that's bad for both BB and its users.

-Steve

[David A.]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 10:09:40 -0700 (PDT), Rob Jackson
<rjack...@gmail.com> wrote:


>However, this icloud compatible version is something
>that you have been espousing for over 6 months. I would think that wold be
>plenty of time for a crack software company like Barebones to accomplish.

I suspect the problem BB is running into has less to do with making
iCloud sync work and more to do with being forced into the App Store
and all the changes and limitations that entails. We need to be fair
to BB and acknowledge that the task at hand is much larger than
migrating from one sync solution to another. It might have helped if
they could have gotten into the MAS before the sandbox restrictions
went into place but they didn't so the pile of needed changes got even
higher.

OR... maybe what they've *really* been working on is Yojimbo 4 with
iCloud support and every new feature request anyone's ever asked for
implemented! ;)

[Eelco Deuling]

Well: I bought Yojimbo in the MAS (january 2011) but it is not there right now, so there was no need to get it there in time for the sandboxing restriction.

I have used some apps that sync through iCloud and have encountered some serious flaws so if the delay means Yojimbo will sync great I can live with this.

Until then I will continue to use the Dropbox method, as I have used from the first moment I bought Yojimbo.

[JGA]

+1

I agree with GrumpyDave. 

[Terry J Fundak]

We all want Yojimbo to work for us and all wish the best for BB, the company. However, BB has been assuring me ( I assume this is many of us) for a long time - way over 6 months ..... I needed the communication and to know the real date - not
"before the sunset of MobileMe" - that is the real issue for me because I stupidly delayed my change from MobileMe to iCloud all the way 'till the very last day because I honestly needed ( wanted) the sync mechanism of Yojimbo... I have grown dependent on Yojimbo and the sync. I rely on it .... Without the sync, I will have to move to something else very shortly .... now as soon as I change - that is the end of Yojimbo's life for me.

Yes, Apple is moving the developers in "a direction" ( good or bad - YMMV ) and yes I'm sure Apple rules are forcing things, some I do not like and some which limit business decisions and developer methods .... Lion UI, in my case, and hidden sliders make me crazy for example, .... but again, BB needs to tell us ( the loyal users ) what the real problem/obstacle is, so that if we need to scream to Apple then we know what we are asking for...

The new limits of Yojimbo are a problem but the bigger problem was the promise and uncertainty of the delivery date and for me the inability to plan my move off MobileMe and find a new solution and change some of my work flows....

Terry

_______________________________________
Terry J Fundak
Systems Engineer
Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000
(415) 877-1783
te...@tjsoftworks.com

[Jason Davies]

David A. wrote:
> We need to be fair
> to BB and acknowledge that the task at hand is much larger than
> migrating from one sync solution to another.

I'm jsut relieved to be working with a company who don't ship until it's
right. The inconvenience of the short delay compared to data corruption
in a month...<shudder>. That's why I use all their stuff on a daily
basis, because of those standards.

It was the right decision to wait. I can cope for a few days more;)

[Johan™Strandberg]

I do feel sorry for the BB team, and only indirectly does the missed deadline affect me, but in the end, this will deeply affect how I store data in the future, and it won't be in Yojimbo.

Basically, if Apple so severely restricts the solutions available developers using its facilities (such as the appstore, iCloud, etc.) that a competent developer with an established record like BB, fails in supporting their own, currently working functionality, then I have to evaluate if Apple is the right platform for me.

Apples hardware and on-board software is second to none in most aspects (i.e., top of the line, and sexy as hell) and I think it is safe to say that we all crave it to some degree. But when it comes to delivering cloud/network based solutions, they suck.

The marginal .mac service was replaced with the even more marginal MobileMe service, that have now been forcefully replaced with the better named, but apparently less functional iCloud. At no point did Apple go out of its way to help end-users by offering  legacy support beyond the absolute minimum... if that.

Anyway, the only reason I bring this up here, is that I hope that in the future, BB will help its users to mitigate risk by not tying services exclusively to services provided by Apple in the cloud/network area, where Apple have a repeatedly deficient track record. IMNSHO, BB would do well in separating its support for sync from its desire to run on the Apple platform.

If such services as synchronization had been separated into a platform neural layer, then I might have been able to use the Goole, Amazon, or other third-party cloud service during the time it takes for Apple to get iCloud fully functional.

Basically, the "cloud" (in its most extended meaning) is evolving so fast that I can't be expected to lock down my supplier of sync services to whomever I choose to provide the hardware platform for the UI.

To do so would be impractical and irresponsible.

I truly feel sorry that the BB team got caught on this cluster (cloud?) "feature", and I don't hold it against them.

Now, all I have to do is extract myself gracefully from this mess and select a solution based on the cloud provider(s) even though the UI is bound to be inferior.

--j

PS   I wish to underline that I'm not reacting like this because some petty disagreement with BB or Apple (although the later is the party I blame for pushing this wreck over the cliff.)

Here is how badly this has hit me:

Since a few month, I'm visiting Sweden for an extended time and had to leave my primary Yojimbo DB back on a non-Lion compatible Mac back in California. The machine I have here is Lion-only.

Thus I live in a [data] house divided.

How I'm going to re-integrate 6GB+ and just under 7K of items (many of them over 50MB) I have no idea. So far the only solutions appear to be to write a non trivial amount of custom software with separate versions for each machine, and then re-integrate more or less by hand where there is ambiguity.

As the metadata such as comments, tags, folders, and modification-, creation-, and addition-dates are part of the metadata that I must preserve, a simple export won't work.

Even simple things such as putting each item in a file with the title as the name will fail as the titles often contain '/' and ':', so I have to establish a dictionary just to do that.

Essentially I have a problem that is a miniature (and luckily one-of) version of what BB had to deal with for the current iCloud migration.

I also have to figure out where to put all this when I'm done.

Clearly it is my fault for delaying cleaning this up until now, but as the future is cloudy (sorry) as to where the best place to keep this, I had hoped BB would buy me some time by pulling a rabbit out of a hat yet again.

As luck would have it, the s[omething] hit the fan when most inconvenient.

Sigh.

PPS  [This spaced reserved for foul language generated by having to use the AppleEvents data model to get the data out of Yojimbo.]

[Terry J Fundak]

Exactly!

But, I still want to know exactly what I need to give as feedback to Apple so they don't continue down the apparently bad path - with respect to developers... BB help us help you..... what is the issue?

Terry

_______________________________________

Terry J Fundak

Systems Engineer

Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000

(415) 877-1783

te...@tjsoftworks.com

[Christian de Larrinaga]

Johan,.  I agree with you - migrating meta data is a huge hole! 

On sync.

Can I suggest BB take a look at OwnCloud? This is self hosted and supports sync services and APIs for developers to do likewise. It has some dropbox like features and I found easy to install. 

Christian 

 

[Phillip Walker]

I don't want to seem like a wet blanket, but somehow, someway, other Apple developers have managed to make the transition.  

I've used BB, originally BBEdit, then Yojimbo for a long time, and I want them to do well.  However, I'm a developer myself and I really have to wonder why it's taking them so long.  Yojimbo came out for the iPad in the late fall/early winter of 2010 as a read only app.  My assumption at the time was that BB was just learning iPad programming and released a read only app as a stop gap measure.  But it's been over a year and a half and no hint of a full functional app yet.  Apple announced that MobleMe was going away and to program to iCloud a good 9 months ago.  All this says to me that either BB is not willing to devote resources to the iPad app and considers it to be a hobby app that gets attention only when there is nothing else to do, or they have boxed themselves in with the design of the product and can't figure out how to make it work.

Seriously, iPad programming is not rocket science.  Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of programmers have managed to figure it out.  I sure hope that BB somehow manages to figure it out, but right now I'm frustrated with them.    

[Johan™Strandberg]

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Terry J Fundak <te...@tjsoftworks.com> wrote:

I still want to know exactly what I need to give as feedback to Apple

I doubt anything except pain in the bottom line will change Apple at this point. I think it is up to developers like BB (and ultimately customers like us) to vote by changing usage patterns. I suspect that might be easier than it looks at the first glance. Who would actually willingly choose iCloud as their primary cloud provider at this point? Until proven otherwise, the storage and sync services are second rate at best. Additional points must be deducted for the abysmal track record and reliability of previous incarnations of Apple provided services.

Future will tell if they are actually committed to iCloud beyond what is minimally needed to support the App Stores and iTunes and a few flagship services. My gut feel is that iCloud will be replaced on a whim if other needs demands it. But I have nothing firm to stand on here but my own not so humble opinion, and we are drifting off topic.

---

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Christian de Larrinaga <cd...@firsthand.net> wrote:

migrating meta data is a huge hole

That would be the one thing that BB could have done for us -- adding a simple metadata export option to the application. Something that wrote an xml file containing all meta data and separate data files where needed for binary data such as images, pdfs, etc..

At this point I have to do this myself some way as I can't wait for them to do it for me. Suffice to say, I'm never putting data into a store that won't provide this service for me in the future. Hit me hard enough times and slowly I learn.

OwnCloud

I don't know anything about OwnCloud, but the idea sounds intriguing. As long as it can export to a simple external format so I can move my data if I need to, I'd be happy.

--j 

[Rich Siegel]

On Friday, July 6, 2012, Phillip Walker

<walkerp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't want to seem like a wet blanket, but somehow, someway,
>other Apple developers have managed to make the transition.

What currently shipping products are you aware of that are using
iCloud to synchronize Core Data persistent stores at the object
level? There are certainly applications shipping that use iCloud
document ubiquity; but that's a completely different animal.
(And it actually works.)

We're encountering challenges with iCloud that require firsthand
intervention from the OS engineering staff. What's that tell you?

>Apple announced that MobleMe was going away and to program to
>iCloud a good 9 months ago.

That the iCloud API itself was a moving target until roughly Mac
OS X 10.7.3; or that there are bugs in the iCloud support in the
currently shipping OS; that $AAPL has absolutely no insight into
the business operations of our company (no more than you do, all
due respect); none of these things have any bearing on the
matter. Right?

>Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of programmers have managed to
>figure it out.

We have higher standards.

R.
--
Rich Siegel Bare Bones Software, Inc.
<sie...@barebones.com> <http://www.barebones.com/>

Someday I'll look back on all this and laugh... until they
sedate me.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 12:19 +0200 07/06/2012, Johan�Strandberg wrote:
[...]

>Since a few month, I'm visiting Sweden for an extended time and had to
>leave my primary Yojimbo DB back on a non-Lion compatible Mac back in
>California. The machine I have here is Lion-only.
>
>Thus I live in a [data] house divided.
>
>How I'm going to re-integrate 6GB+ and just under 7K of items (many of
>them over 50MB) I have no idea. So far the only solutions appear to be to
>write a non trivial amount of custom software with separate versions for
>each machine, and then re-integrate more or less by hand where there is
>ambiguity.

[...]


Though perhaps there are other conditions I'm unaware of, if you have:

* Machine A: in California and inactive since you left

* Machine B: at hand and active

and if both machines contained the same data at the time you left CA, I'd
expect you can now consider machine B the 'master', and just copy its data
store back to machine A when you return.


Regards,

Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc. <http://www.barebones.com>
P.O. Box 1048, Bedford, MA 01730-1048

[Terry J Fundak]

Thank you Rich.

Again, is there anything that we the effected loyal Yojimbo users ( some of us are developers too ) can do to help either Apple understand that they are creating pain or is there anything that we users can say that will help BB make a decision to move a different direction?

Terry

_______________________________________
Terry J Fundak
Systems Engineer
Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000
(415) 877-1783
te...@tjsoftworks.com

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 07:17 -0700 07/06/2012, Terry J Fundak wrote:
[...]

>But, I still want to know exactly what I need to give as feedback to Apple
>so they don't continue down the apparently bad path - with respect to
>developers... BB help us help you..... what is the issue?

Though we do appreciate the offer, the key issues are technical, not
matters of feedback.

[Phillip Walker]

I'm not looking to pick a fight and I have no idea what specific technologies other companies use, but somehow, someway, they have managed to figure out how to achieve the effect of synchronization. Amazon, Evernote and Apple among others all managed to somehow produce apps that allow synchronization between devices, heck Amazon and Evernote even synchronize across different platforms. It doesn't much matter to me how they do it, I just care that it works.

I'm sure there are bugs in the technology, I have yet to work with a technology that doesn't have bugs. But I've never had a boss who was willing to accept there are bugs in the technology as a valid reason for not getting my project done on time. If one way doesn't work, then I figure out another way to achieve the same goal.

You are right, I don't have any knowledge of the inter workings of Bare Bones software. Bare Bones is well known for being very closed mouthed when dealing with customers. The problem is that if you aren't willing to be open with the customers, then they are going to fill in the details themselves and usually it won't be in a positive way. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's a reality that all companies that have customers have to deal with.

Look, as I said, I'm not looking to pick a fight with you or anyone from Bare Bones. Yojimbo for the Mac is a fine product, I'm happy with it and the syncing work arounds work just fine for me. I'm frustrated that Yojimbo for the iPad is read only and that frustration is compounded by BB's unwillingness to discuss the matter.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 17:14 -0400 07/06/2012, Phillip Walker wrote:
> I'm not looking to pick a fight [...]


As in my experience :-), this is often the first thing someone who's trying
to pick a fight says, please refrain.

[Terry J Fundak]

+ 1 to Phillip's and others comments.... I think we are really trying to communicate in a positive way.

BB, please keep us in the loop and in a "timely" way .... we are trying to remain loyal .... despite our pain.

Terry
_______________________________________
Terry J Fundak
Systems Engineer
Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000
(415) 877-1783
te...@tjsoftworks.com

[Phillip Walker]

ok, I'm to take one more stab at this and then I'm going to let it go.

A number of years ago, I read an interview with the owner of a restaurant. In that interview, the restaurant owner mentioned that one of her biggest frustrations is that Southerns tend not say when something is wrong, they just smile, say everything is fine and then never come back. She then said, how can she fix something if the customers aren't willing to say that there is a problem. I thought that she had a point.

I posted my comments because I saw a problem and thought it would be better to let BB software know what I saw as a problem rather than just simply not come back. As far as I know this is the only mechanism for given feedback to Bare Bones software. I'm not here to pick fights, I'm not here to start flame wars. I'm also not storming off in a huff because my feelings are hurt. I hope that Yojimbo for the iPad will eventually do what I want it to do. I will be quite happy if it does. I will leave it there.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 18:25 -0400 07/06/2012, Phillip Walker wrote:
[...]

> I posted my comments because I saw a problem and thought it would
> be better to let BB software know what I saw as a problem rather
> than just simply not come back. As far as I know this is the only

> mechanism for given feedback to Bare Bones software. [...]


In hopes of clarifying the latter, we always appreciate feedback and the
most direct way to provide same is to contact us:

<http://www.barebones.com/contact/technical.html>

or as usual:

<sup...@barebones.com>

[MW]

After reading over this thread and others related to the pending iCloud compatibility transition with Yojimbo, I thought I would chime in. I too was one of those folks who held onto their MobileMe account in the desperate hope that BB would nail this down prior to the sunset date. I too was one of those who was really angry for the semi-assurances that BB provided prior to the sunset date, only to be let down after it past without a new syncing solution available. But then I decided to look around at what is my alternative for similar apps that can syc across my Macs. After reading the blogs for other apps like Devonthink, and Soho notes, it is quickly apparent that no one has figured out how to nail this down in a timely fashion. What I get from my brief research on this topic is that straight document syncing over iCloud is easy to get rolling, but database syncing is a whole other enchilada. The fact that a lot of smart people with different developers have been working on this and that no one has cracked it speaks volumes to me about the way that Apple ultimately dropped the ball on this issue. Trust me guys, we are not alone, and I really think Apple should take a good piece of this beating that we are quick to dispense to BareBones. If you have bothered to post something or send an email to BB, I would encourage you to sit down at the keyboard once more and let Apple know how you feel.

[cdel.firsthand.net]

This should not be Apple specific anyway. 

ICloud does not support this functionality. Why are people chasing Apple for something iCloud does not do? 

All this effort would be better spent on cross platform service architecture that is designed to platform transaction sync. 

Christian de Larrinaga

On 27 Jul 2012, at 22:07, MW <mark.ratio...@gmail.com> wrote:

After reading over this thread and others related to the pending iCloud compatibility transition with Yojimbo, I thought I would chime in. I too was one of those folks who held onto their MobileMe account in the desperate hope that BB would nail this down prior to the sunset date. I too was one of those who was really angry for the semi-assurances that BB provided prior to the sunset date, only to be let down after it past without a new syncing solution available. But then I decided to look around at what is my alternative for similar apps that can syc across my Macs. After reading the blogs for other apps like Devonthink, and Soho notes, it is quickly apparent that no one has figured out how to nail this down in a timely fashion. What I get from my brief research on this topic is that straight document syncing over iCloud is easy to get rolling, but database syncing is a whole other enchilada. The fact that a lot of smart people with different developers have been working on this and that no one has cracked it speaks volumes to me about the way that Apple ultimately dropped the ball on this issue. Trust me guys, we are not alone, and I really think Apple should take a good piece of this beating that we are quick to dispense to BareBones. If you have bothered to post something or send an email to BB, I would encourage you to sit down at the keyboard once more and let Apple know how you feel.

--

[Terje Bless]

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:37 PM, cdel.firsthand.net <cd...@firsthand.net> wrote:
>This should not be Apple specific anyway.

That is certainly the approach The Omni Group have taken with their
Omni Sync Server for OmniFocus etc.

> ICloud does not support this functionality. Why are people chasing Apple for
> something iCloud does not do?

Because Apple has made representations that iCloud /does/ do this
(Core Data syncing is one of the three main "areas" of iCloud API);
it's just that everyone has discovered that this part of it is
incomplete and with loads of really hard to handle corner cases.

> All this effort would be better spent on cross platform service architecture
> that is designed to platform transaction sync.

Uh-huh. Keep in mind that Apple, with its $100Bn warchest, has failed
twice at implementing sync. That doesn't suggest that this is a
problem susceptible to solving by a small independent developer at
all; much less that it is sound business sense to invest in such a
solution as a mere adjunct to the actual product (in this case,
Yojimbo).

Cheers,
-link

[Brian Brown-Cashdollar]

I have used Yojimbo since it was first released (I believe in 2006). It quickly became a trusted piece of software for storing everything from passwords to logins and more, with very few hiccups. I wasn't one who waited on BB to update the software before moving to iCloud. I played around with duplicate entries, tried dropbox and spider oak, but saw Yojimbo slip from something I could trust to just dump stuff in and find later on either computer without issue, to something I had to spend time on and think about.

As for transitioning from .mac/mobileme to iCloud I'm not surprised that Apple release a service or even software that wasn't fully baked. The list is long starting with the absurdly named "Cheetah". It should have become apparent early in the year, when Apple hadn't delivered a complete set of tools, and even more apparent after they did with 10.7.3. Syncing is important to a lot of us, and alternatives should have been planned for. Whether it was a solution like the OmniSync server from OmniGroup or something else.

I bit the bullet yesterday and bought 1Password, desktop and iOS and ported over much of the Yojimbo info with an Automator workflow that's available in agile bits forums. 1Password is a slick piece of software that allows for data entry from all devices. It's not perfect, it feels sluggish compared to Yojimbo and even with the conversion it will take several weeks to tweak everything to fit the 1password way, but at this point I have no idea what to expect. We went from an app being submitted in a matter of days in late June, to Apple's now involved to work out some serious issues in cloud syncing services. I have to stop thinking about how my data's stored and synced.

I still plan to purchase the upgrade to Yojimbo when it's released as a hedge against whatever, but if get too far down the road with 1Password, that'll be that.

[Steven J Klein]

On Jul 28, 2012, at 8:37 AM, cdel.firsthand.net wrote:

ICloud does not support this functionality. Why are people chasing Apple for something iCloud does not do? 

Actually, Core Data syncing is a claimed feature of iCloud.

This article explains some of the difference between how syncing worked in MobileMe and how it works in iCloud:

http://mentalfaculty.tumblr.com/post/23231176783/under-the-sheets-with-icloud-and-core-data-how-it

Note: It’s written with developers in mind, so much of it may be beyond your technical knowledge.

Regards,
-- 
Steven Klein Computer Service
Apple & A+ Certified
Your Mac, PC & Network Expert
Phone: (248) YOUR-MAC
    or (248) 968-7622

[cdel.firsthand.net]

This is not a money challenge but architecture error.

The problem is to coordinate transactionally content between responsible nodes. i.e., peer to peer. The nodes MUST exert control and ownership in full over the exercise of coordination and content.

The solution iCloud offers is to remove responsibility from node to their own server. Not only for the data but also for code.

This is not acceptable. Users need to keep responsibility at the device/ node/ service point.
For developers this is not working in their customers better interests nor their own.

If you are not US Resident you also need to consider the implications of being placed under US jurisdiction ... Just to coordinate between your own devices non in US.



Christian de Larrinaga

[James Bisset]

If accurate, this is very important.

Apple is right to see seamless access to personal data on any device as the next big thing, but it's not going to work if we lose access or control over our own data.

Panic are having issues with synching Coda (their web developers app) through iCloud. In an attempt to fix my install, I tried to delete my iCloud Coda cache through the system preferences, only to get a warning that this step will delete the data on iCloud AND on every synced device!

As others have said, Barebones are not alone in getting iCloud to work. But maybe it's beginning to look like Apple can't do sync anyway?


Jim

--
James Bisset
m e d i a c h r o m e
http://www.mediachrome.com

[augenmensch]

Hi all,

long time reader, first time poster.

Since I am an Omni-(pretty much -all)-user and not too long ago they successfully offered a (free) possibility to successfully solve the whole syncing issue, I was thinking isn't that also a possibility for BB ?

Of course offering syncing technology/infrastructure would open another front, but ultimately this is a thing BB could control.

I am more than open to pay for it, even if it is separate from other services. At the end it would/need to serve only one particular purpose.

My '02.

Cheers

Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2012 17:09:12 UTC+2 schrieb Brian Brown-Cashdollar:

...Apple hadn't delivered a complete set of tools, and even more apparent after they did with 10.7.3. Syncing is important to a lot of us, and alternatives should have been planned for. Whether it was a solution like the OmniSync server from OmniGroup or something else.

[Christian de Larrinaga]

On 30 Jul 2012, at 02:10, Steven J Klein wrote:

On Jul 28, 2012, at 8:37 AM, cdel.firsthand.net wrote:

ICloud does not support this functionality. Why are people chasing Apple for something iCloud does not do? 

Actually, Core Data syncing is a claimed feature of iCloud.

That sounds hopeful. 

This article explains some of the difference between how syncing worked in MobileMe and how it works in iCloud:

http://mentalfaculty.tumblr.com/post/23231176783/under-the-sheets-with-icloud-and-core-data-how-it

This is an interesting article. Thank you for the link. Drew McCormack the author helps explain only some of the important design components. Perhaps enough to make a rough and ready sync project but not enough to explain the policy consequences on user control over their content. 

The design is obscure and he makes a good job in showing how obscure. His description of the CoreData Transaction plist only to fail to explain the third number out of three is jaw dropping admission of how obscure the design is for developers. 

So it turns out to be a bit less hopeful 

then he writes 

"Importing Transactions

When import logs are transferred to a device, Core Data attempts to import them into the local store. The exact details of this are very vague. Basically, the process is private, and Apple do not provide any hooks into the import procedure."

This obscurity is very obscure isn't it!

From an architecture perspective this article shows developers are in the dark to describe the design structure of the import functionality let alone what goes on within the Apple server services. So how are they to shine a light on the end to end transaction to their users in turn? 

No doubt one can get to the bottom of this as a developer in a few days or weeks or months of effort to implement a sync service. What it does not get to the bottom of is what happens in the bits the developer cannot see nor appear able to describe in the network, servers and any intermediate system components.  

Note: It’s written with developers in mind, so much of it may be beyond your technical knowledge.

I have a little experience. :-)

but happy to keep learning ... 

Regards,
-- 
Steven Klein Computer Service
Apple & A+ Certified
Your Mac, PC & Network Expert
Phone: (248) YOUR-MAC
    or (248) 968-7622

thanks

Christian 

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 09:32 -0700 07/30/2012, augenmensch wrote:

>long time reader, first time poster.
>Since I am an Omni-(pretty much -all)-user and not too long ago they
>successfully offered a (free) possibility to successfully solve the whole
>syncing issue, I was thinking isn't that also a possibility for BB ?
>Of course offering syncing technology/infrastructure would open another
>front, >but ultimately this is a thing BB could control.
>I am more than open to pay for it, even if it is separate from other
>services. >At the end it would/need to serve only one particular purpose.

[...]


Though we did consider this approach amongst a range of potential options,
I regret it's not feasible for Yojimbo's needs.

[Rob Jackson]

Brian,  

I couldn't have said this better myself. 

I started this thread over a month ago and am still waiting along with everyone else.   While I am sympathetic to BB's plight, the bottom line is that I don't really care if it is an Apple issue, a BB issue, a core data issue, or whatever.  I just want it to work.  And while the prior versions are fine and have worked well, I now have multiple devices (iMac, MAcBook, IPad, iPhone, etc.) and find that it is very inconvenient to consolidate all my info to one device.  So, I just use Yojimbo less and less.  And the fact that a solution was promised, but not delivered, has caused me to loose a little bit of trust too. 

You know, the Mac customer base is changing, and has been for a while.  I am not a programmer or in the computer industry, but appreciate  products and things that work well. I have been a Mac guy for a long while, after getting completely frustrated with Window in the late 1990s.  But gone are the days where the Mac customer base was willing to put up with all kinds of of inconveniences to help protect the Mac or its developers.  As the customer base expands, people are bringing in a non-tech, it just works well mind set (and expectations) from the iPhone. I think Apple has realized this (or driven it there) with the convenience of the AppStore, MusicMatch,and iCloud.  And it is here to stay. 

Last month, I sent an email to an well-known independent Mac developer of a program that I use frequently that just suddenly stopped working for no apparent reason.  I asked him if he had an app store version so I could buy it (again, I would add) because I appreciated the convenience of the App Store.  I got back a two page diatribe about the evils of the App Store, that he would never support it, and that I needed to install his program and reinstall it again from his site to get it to work.  Ok . . .I did it (because I really like his program), but it was inconvenient and I will probably never install it on another computer simply because I will forget I have it (I had to go back into 4 years of email just to find the original serial number).  And when I upgrade computers next time, I probably wont install it all - I will go through my AppStore lust of app, not see it and forget about it.  By then, someone almost certainly have put out a MacStore app that is almost as good as his and I will download it instead.  

People just want it to work and for it to be as seamless as possible. It is just human nature.  I hope BB gets it right with Yojimbo.  I feel confident that they will. But everyday gone by is another day that I have to think about my data and moving stuff around, and another day that I will lose touch with BB and turn to other solutions - a simple but unfortunate fact 

- Rob

[Terje Bless]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:56 AM, Rob Jackson <rjack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While I am sympathetic to BB's plight, the bottom line is that I don't really
> care if it is an Apple issue, a BB issue, a core data issue, or whatever.
>I just want it to work.

And how right you are. Yojimbo is Bare Bones Software product, and
Yojimbo users are Bare Bones Software's customers, and the
responsibility for this rests on Bare Bones Software. They made a
technology choice which at the time seemed right, but which in
retrospect has burned them and which is now hurting their customers.
All the public communication I've seen from Bare Bones Software
regarding this issue suggests that they take this responsibility very
seriously and are doing everything in their power to rectify it and to
serve their customers the best way they know how.

I think the thing to do now is to grit your teeth at the inconvenience
and hunker down to wait until they manage to fix it; or, if sync is
/that/ critical and time-sensitive to you, to bite the bullet and
migrate to whatever solution does work for you. Because I very much
doubt that anyone cares more, or considers it more critical, than Bare
Bones Software does: if there was /any/ way they could resolve it
sooner they would have done so. Putting pressure on them is, while a
natural way to react, in practice unnecessary (the priority meter on
this is most likely allready redlined) and will probably not achieve
anything except exacerbate their collective ulcers.

It's a sucky situation all around; and for Bare Bones Software
probably more than anyone else (I *really* don't envy them right now).

Cheers,
Terje

[Seth Elgart]

On Monday, July 30, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Rob Jackson wrote:

While I am sympathetic to BB's plight, the bottom line is that I don't really care if it is an Apple issue, a BB issue, a core data issue, or whatever.  I just want it to work.  And while the prior versions are fine and have worked well, I now have multiple devices (iMac, MAcBook, IPad, iPhone, etc.) and find that it is very inconvenient to consolidate all my info to one device.  So, I just use Yojimbo less and less.  And the fact that a solution was promised, but not delivered, has caused me to loose a little bit of trust too. 

You know, the Mac customer base is changing, and has been for a while.  I am not a programmer or in the computer industry, but appreciate  products and things that work well. I have been a Mac guy for a long while, after getting completely frustrated with Window in the late 1990s.  But gone are the days where the Mac customer base was willing to put up with all kinds of of inconveniences to help protect the Mac or its developers.  As the customer base expands, people are bringing in a non-tech, it just works well mind set (and expectations) from the iPhone. I think Apple has realized this (or driven it there) with the convenience of the AppStore, MusicMatch,and iCloud.  And it is here to stay. 

Rob,

It's just not as simple as everyone wants it to be. And in some ways that's the basic problem with both the App Store and iCloud. In order to make it "just work" as you said in your email, Apple has imposed some severe restrictions on how they can be used and what can go in them. That's fine for single-data-type apps, but for more complex software that may not work.

You didn't say what the "ranting" developer's program is so let's take 1Password as an example. 1Password and Yojimbo look similar on the outside. They both have bits of information, they both have records, they both have fields in those records.1Password can sync multiple open copies, Yojimbo doesn't. But there's a huge difference between 1Password's data and Yojimbo's. 1Password has tiny bits of data, and it's all just plain text. Yojimbo on the other hand can have all sorts of data types, of all sorts of kinds. For 1Password, it's "easy" to sync because all you have to do is make sure your two different copies of the text are not writing the same record at the same time. Yojimbo on the other hand is a complex database that can store all sorts of things, including objects. 1Password is essentially reading a text file, Yojimbo is essentially a database and a file system too. That's two completely different things.

So instead of comparing Yojimbo to 1Password, let's compare it to something that's more similar, something that's a database. I'm picking FileMaker. Now I've not tried to put a FileMaker database file on iCloud to see if it works, nor have I done any research on that yet. But that's not really the point here. The point is that in order to be simultaneously shared FileMaker's complex database files need their own server to host the files. For under 10 users that can be done by the application itself as it has a basic server built-in. Cool! However, FileMaker costs $300. (It's also owned by Apple, I might add.) And if you want more than 10 users in FileMaker you have to get FileMaker Server too, and that *starts* at $1,000 (but note that you still need those $300 copies of regular FileMaker too). Yojimbo on the other hand costs under $40. 

So everyone's all like, "dude, you guys suck, man" because the awesome custom database app they like doesn't do a couple of things their $300 (or really $1,300) "competitor" does. 

So the bottom line is that iCloud isn't a server, and that's what Yojimbo might really need in order to do what everyone wants. Yojimbo started out life as a one-computer data repository, and they made it so you could open the file from multiple locations but only one at a time. What you're asking it to be though is a complex server-based database. There are also very tight restrictions on what apps using iCloud and the App Store are allowed to do. 

Programming isn't a magic wand, it's actually really hard. And Yojimbo isn't a giant company, and they don't only have one product. (When am I going to get a Notification Center friendly version of WeatherCal that doesn't trigger notifications every hour for each of its five days worth of forecasts, dagnabbit?!?!?!?!?! I demand that BareBones update this app immediately! :-) 

As an example of this, I use TextExpander. It must have corrected 43 typos already in just this one email. It's awesome software. It's on the Mac and on iDevices too. The Mac version just works, but the iPhone version, well, not so much. And people are outraged by that. But hey, Apple doesn't allow one app on the iPhone to interact with another, so it's pretty near impossible to have one app monitor what another app is typing. And that's what you have in the App Store on the Mac; very tight restrictions and very controlled functionality. 

So no, not every app you want to buy will be allowed in the App Store, and not every app you use will work with iCloud. Yojimbo, although it looks simple, is really not simple at all. It's got tagging and palettes and floating windows with clickable text buttons and multiple data types and a mini search engine and file storage and and and.

It ain't that simple.

Seth

[rickdude]

As I understand it, Barebones haven't yet succeeded in getting iCloud to work properly.

2012年7月30日月曜日 19時31分20秒 UTC+9 jamesbisset:

[Urban Weigl]

Rich, thanks. Your communications help. A lot.

Here's why: until I read your post, I was siding with Apple on this. Now, I have a much better understanding of the matter. While it is an inconvenience, I have been using Yojimbo since version 1.0 and love it. I think what you need to do on your end is communicate clearly with your customers. Post an official update at least twice monthly.

If you have great communications, I and I suspect most of your customers will understand. What people don't like is not hearing anything and not knowing what's going on.

[James Bisset]

Sorry - I missed a bit:

Barebones are not alone in struggling to get iCloud to work...

Jim

--
James Bisset
m e d i a c h r o m e
http://www.mediachrome.com

[Terry J Fundak]

+ 1 - I am still in pain but I feel better knowing what is going on .... 

And I understand that BB may be under a NDA, as a member of Apple Developer programs or otherwise and I know full well that this can make 100% "honestly" communication rather terse .... verging on deceptive ... I get it... BB is small ... Apple has lot of lawyers and is not afraid to protect it's brand ....

Terry

_______________________________________

Terry J Fundak

Systems Engineer

Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000

(415) 877-1783

te...@tjsoftworks.com

[Rob Jackson]

Seth:

Thank you for your post.  I do understand that programing is hard.  God knows that I cant do it.  Especially on the scale and quality of BB.  I can't even type - I am a one finger wonder:)

I guess my point is to follow up on what Brian was saying.  Yojimbo's main selling point is its simplicity and ease of use.  And when that goes away or deteriorates because I have to think about what I am doing, where the data is going, or which device it is stored on, I will just use it less often.  I also have copies of Bento and Filemaker.  They can store the same type of data as Yojimbo, but are much more complex.  I dont use them near as often, but only for certain types of data or projects.  What I love about Yojimbo is that it doesn't matter what I throw at it, it stores and saves everthing - easily.  I hope BB can find a solution - I am confident that they will.  I just wish that they had communicated the issues better before June 30th when MM expired.

I suppose I will try the Dropbox solution or Sidekick or something.  I have been reluctant to do Dropbox for fear of corrupting my data.  But it appears I may have to move it somewhere else anyway now.

I know customers, especially software customers, can be completely unreasonable.  I am dumbfounded by all the ridiculous reviews on the App store complaining about apps that cost $4.99, because the reviewer thinks is only worth $0.99.  Give me a break.  For the price of a beer, you bought someone's intellectual capital that ought to make your life easier.  It it doesn't, so what.  You only spent a 5 bucks.  An investment so little as to be almost comical.  Be more careful next time. And don't try to tell the developer what to charge.  Let the market dictate that.  

I am not trying to be unreasonable.  I didn't provide the name of the "ranting" developer on purpose - no need to. And there is no need to speak ill of BB.  I know they are bothered by this more than anyone else.  But customers are unforgiving and will move on when they have to.  It is just human nature. A quick story.  I was a military reservist and was involuntarily recalled to active duty after 9/11.  All my clients were very supportive and stuck by me . . . until they couldn't.  During the year I was gone, almost all my clients left.  It wasn't because they hated me or didn't want to support me or the war.  It was simply because they needed something, I was no longer there to provide it, and there were 50 other people that could.  Maybe not as good as I could, but my clients needed it now.  Some held out longer than others, but eventually they all came to realize that I wasn't there to help them and someone else was.  That isn't fair - I was off fighting for them for Christ sake - but it is reality.  And that is where Yojimbo is right now with their customers - somewhere between waiting and moving on. 

- Rob    

[Keith Calder]

Dear Yojimbo team,

It doesn't bother me that iCloud syncing isn't working yet. I can make do with the Dropbox syncing. What bothers me is that I delayed switching to iCloud until after the MobileMe sunset date because I trusted BB when they said that iCloud syncing would be resolved "well before the MobileMe sunset date." This impacted other software that I use negatively, but I kept on the MobileMe bandwagon because I was waiting for the Yojimbo update that was sure to arrive any day. Of course, the update didn't arrive, and I had to migrate to iCloud *and* have a non-syncing version of Yojimbo while I was in the middle of traveling between three countries. For now I have migrated to iCloud and am using the Dropbox syncing solution, which is nice whenever I remember to quit Yojimbo as I stop using one of my computers.

So yes, I understand that iCloud syncing is a sticky situation. I understand that BB are paying for Apple's decisions and problems. I am very understanding of the technical predicament you are in, and I am a loyal Yojimbo user who is rooting for you guys to find a solution that is up to your high standards. I just wish you guys had been more open in how you communicated with your customers. It would have been nice to get a heads up in March, or April, or May, or hell even in June that it looked like iCloud syncing wasn't going to be ready prior to the MobileMe sunset date. If I even had a week's notice, then I could have planned out a migration strategy that would have been painless and not a last-minute rush.

When you talk about having "higher standards" when it comes to your development, I appreciate the sentiment. Maybe now's the time to have higher standards when it comes to how you communicate with your users. Telling us that iCloud syncing would be resolved "well before the MobileMe sunset date" may have been honest in 2011, but it certainly wasn't honest in June 2012, and I suspect it wasn't really honest in May 2012 either. Obviously this is a one-time occurrence, but it has definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. Six months ago I loved Yojimbo so much that I delayed a major Apple upgrade just because of Yojimbo. Six months ago I trusted BareBones so much as a company that I was willing to rely on your word that iCloud syncing would come prior to the MobileMe sunset date. As of August 2012, that trust has eroded and my love of Yojimbo has turned into utilitarian reliance.

You have spent years building up a wonderful reputation and brand as an independent software developer. Please know that this reputation is not just based on your software. It's also based on how you communicate with your users. We make decisions that impact our lives based on the information you give us, and please keep that in mind from now on.

Best wishes,

Keith Calder

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 6:09:40 PM UTC+1, Rob Jackson wrote:

To the Yojimbo Team:

Just want to express my disappointment that you did not make your self imposed June 30th deadline.  I am not going to threaten to stop using the software or call anyone names, or anything like that.  I understand things come up and sometimes things don't work out as planned.  And it is just software after all. However, this icloud compatible version is something that you have been espousing for over 6 months. I would think that wold be plenty of time for a crack software company like Barebones to accomplish. I have been following this closely, but from the sidelines.  I suspect that I am not the only one who has been doing so and is also disappointed.

That said, please push an iCloud version of Yojimbo as soon as you can, or if you have other plans, please let us know as soon as possible so your users can make alternative plans.

Thanks.

- Rob

[Terje Bless]

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Keith Calder <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It doesn't bother me that iCloud syncing isn't working yet. I can make do

> […]. What bothers me is that I delayed switching to

> iCloud until after the MobileMe sunset date because I trusted BB when they
> said that iCloud syncing would be resolved "well before the MobileMe sunset

> date." […] I just wish you guys had been more open in how you

> communicated with your customers. It would have been nice to get a heads up
> in March, or April, or May, or hell even in June that it looked like iCloud

> syncing wasn't going to be ready prior to the MobileMe sunset date. […]

Very nicely articulated Keith (pardon my rather arbitrary snips), and
I suspect that's the way a lot of users feel right now. And I
certainly don't intend this message to be taken as an argument
against; nor, I would suspect, would Bare Bones disagree or in any way
begrudge your position here. I expect they feel your frustration
tenfold.

However, making some educated guesses based solely on what I have seen
as an external observer, and by trying to put myself in Bare Bones'
shoes... The goal of releasing iCloud support in time probably looked
achievable (if an increasingly close shave) all the way until the
final week before the MobileMe sunset; and then they hit some
insurmountable (in the relevant time period) bug or limitation in
iCloud...

At that point Bare Bones would no longer be in control of the schedule
and entirely dependent on Apple to make progress. I'd be willing to
bet that the message to customers informing them that they wouldn't be
able to make the sunset date was sent some period of time that could
be reasonably measured in _hours_ (not days) after this state of
affairs was a fact.

Under those circumstances it would be both unproductive and relatively
unprofessional for Bare Bones to point the finger at Apple in their
communication with customers (publicly calling out those on whom you
are entirely dependent for help, both now and in the future, is not
exactly the smartest move you could make). I actually think they've
gone as far as they could, within the limits of professional courtesy,
in the messages they have sent. (But I have no dog in that race, so
I'll happily point the finger at Apple: the iCloud transition was way
too agressive and left both users and the developers who trusted
Apple's platform in the lurch).

Keeping this in mind, what can they possibly communicate that they
haven't already? They've said they have hit a problem, and that they
are working hard to overcome it, and that they're working closely with
Apple to find a solution. The best they could do would be "We still
have a problem and we're still working to fix it". Or even possibly
they're dependent on bug fixes in iCloud that Apple won't ship until
they release OS X 10.8.1 (or even 10.8.2; but let's really hope that
isn't the case), in which case the developer Non-Disclosure Agreement
(and Apple's policy of never pre-announcing such things) would
actively enjoin them from commenting about it until it's out.

In sum, I think you should take the relative silence to mean that
there simply isn't anything worthwhile to report ("still not fixed,
still working hard"), and the minute, the second, they have a solution
you'll hear about it as fast and as loud as they can manage. The only
caveat to that is that if I were in Bare Bones' shoes right now, the
last thing I would want to do is make another representation
("promise") that I wasn't 110% sure I could keep: so don't expect "We
think we may have it fixed in the next week", but rather "It is now
fixed and released and ready for download".

In other words, my advice is to grit your teeth, swallow your
frustration, and just wait it out: it will eventually get resolved,
you'll hear about it as soon as there is anything to report, and in
the meanwhile it is outside all our collective powers to speed the
process along.

Cheers,
Terje

[Laura]

I agree, the silence is deafening. http://www.barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html has a post on June 26, updated June 30th, and another update July 25th. They all say pretty much the same thing: "Not yet."

More updates would help. Are they still working on it? Is this an issue with a restriction of the API that is forcing a rearchitecture? Are they considering alternatives? Are they making progress? Silence could mean anything, from "We're about to announce the release" to "We've decided to EOL Yojimbo, but haven't figured out how to tell you yet."

For me, I've now replaced Yojimbo in my workflow for the more critical things, mainly secure notes storage. But in this silence, I'm starting to think I should replace Yojimbo in all tasks -- note taking, snippets collections. Evernote is not at all suitable, but there are other apps out there. I'm now moving into actively shopping for alternatives. If Yojimbo comes out with this update eventually, I will consider it, just like I would any app that might be useful. But the marriage is over.

Laura

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 15:59 -0700 08/16/2012, Keith Calder wrote:
>> It doesn't bother me that iCloud syncing isn't working yet. I can make do

>> [...]. I just wish you guys had been more open in how you communicated

>> with your customers. It would have been nice to get a heads up in March,
>> or April, or May, or hell even in June that it looked like iCloud

>> syncing wasn't going to be ready prior to the MobileMe sunset date. [�]


That was a mistake on our part which we realize has inconvenienced many of
you, and for which we apologize.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 08:43 -0700 08/18/2012, Laura wrote:
>I agree, the silence is
>deafening. http://www.barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html has a post
>on June 26, updated June 30th, and another update July 25th. They all say
>pretty much the same thing: "Not yet."
>

>More updates would help. Are they still working on it? [...]


Yes, we are still working hard to complete adding iCloud support to
Yojimbo, and we apologize for the delay.

We will continue to post status updates both here and on our website
whenever we have new information to offer:

<http://www.barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html>

and I'll also post weekly notes here even if we do not.

[Keith Calder]

Thank you Patrick. I really appreciate this response, and your offer to post weekly updates here. And fingers crossed that team BB can successfully wrestle the iCloud alligator!

 - keith

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:01:15 PM UTC+1, Patrick Woolsey wrote:

At 15:59 -0700 08/16/2012, Keith Calder wrote:
>> It doesn't bother me that iCloud syncing isn't working yet. I can make do
>> [...]. I just wish you guys had been more open in how you communicated
>> with your customers. It would have been nice to get a heads up in March,
>> or April, or May, or hell even in June that it looked like iCloud

>> syncing wasn't going to be ready prior to the MobileMe sunset date. [�]

[DavidH]

Patrick,

Thank You for recognizing that the Communication/Status on this issue is important.
Your commitment to regular status updates will go all long way with your customers.

Good Luck
DavidH

Sent from my iPad