That is certainly the approach The Omni Group have taken with their
Omni Sync Server for OmniFocus etc.

Because Apple has made representations that iCloud /does/ do this
(Core Data syncing is one of the three main "areas" of iCloud API);
it's just that everyone has discovered that this part of it is
incomplete and with loads of really hard to handle corner cases.

Uh-huh. Keep in mind that Apple, with its $100Bn warchest, has failed
twice at implementing sync. That doesn't suggest that this is a
problem susceptible to solving by a small independent developer at
all; much less that it is sound business sense to invest in such a
solution as a mere adjunct to the actual product (in this case,
Yojimbo).

Cheers,
-link

I have used Yojimbo since it was first released (I believe in 2006). It
quickly became a trusted piece of software for storing everything from
passwords to logins and more, with very few hiccups. I wasn't one who
waited on BB to update the software before moving to iCloud. I played
around with duplicate entries, tried dropbox and spider oak, but saw
Yojimbo slip from something I could trust to just dump stuff in and find
later on either computer without issue, to something I had to spend time on
and think about.

As for transitioning from .mac/mobileme to iCloud I'm not surprised that
Apple release a service or even software that wasn't fully baked. The list
is long starting with the absurdly named "Cheetah". It should have become
apparent early in the year, when Apple hadn't delivered a complete set of
tools, and even more apparent after they did with 10.7.3. Syncing is
important to a lot of us, and alternatives should have been planned for.
Whether it was a solution like the OmniSync server from OmniGroup or
something else.

I bit the bullet yesterday and bought 1Password, desktop and iOS and ported
over much of the Yojimbo info with an Automator workflow that's available
in agile bits forums. 1Password is a slick piece of software that allows
for data entry from all devices. It's not perfect, it feels sluggish
compared to Yojimbo and even with the conversion it will take several weeks
to tweak everything to fit the 1password way, but at this point I have no
idea what to expect. We went from an app being submitted in a matter of
days in late June, to Apple's now involved to work out some serious issues
in cloud syncing services. I have to stop thinking about how my data's
stored and synced.

I still plan to purchase the upgrade to Yojimbo when it's released as a
hedge against whatever, but if get too far down the road with 1Password,
that'll be that.

On Jul 28, 2012, at 8:37 AM, cdel.firsthand.net wrote:

Actually, Core Data syncing is a claimed feature of iCloud.

This article explains some of the difference between how syncing worked in MobileMe and how it works in iCloud:
http://mentalfaculty.tumblr.com/post/23231176783/under-the-sheets-wit...

Note: It’s written with developers in mind, so much of it may be beyond your technical knowledge.

Regards,
--
Steven Klein Computer Service
Apple & A+ Certified
Your Mac, PC & Network Expert
Phone: (248) YOUR-MAC
    or (248) 968-7622

This is not a money challenge but architecture error.

The problem is to coordinate transactionally content between responsible nodes. i.e., peer to peer. The nodes MUST exert control and ownership in full over the exercise of coordination and content.

The solution iCloud offers is to remove responsibility from node to their own server. Not only for the data but also for code.

This is not acceptable.  Users need to keep responsibility at the device/ node/ service point.
For developers this is not working in their customers better interests nor their own.

If you are not US Resident you also need to consider the implications of being placed under US jurisdiction ... Just to coordinate between your own devices non in US.

Christian de Larrinaga

On 29 Jul 2012, at 08:34, Terje Bless <l...@pobox.com> wrote:

If accurate, this is very important.

Apple is right to see seamless access to personal data on any device as the next big thing, but it's not going to work if we lose access or control over our own data.

Panic are having issues with synching Coda (their web developers app) through iCloud. In an attempt to fix my install, I tried to delete my iCloud Coda cache through the system preferences, only to get a warning that this step will delete the data on iCloud AND on every synced device!

As others have said, Barebones are not alone in getting iCloud to work. But maybe it's beginning to look like Apple can't do sync anyway?

   Jim

--
James Bisset
m e d i a c h r o m e
http://www.mediachrome.com

On 29 Jul 2012, at 18:11, cdel.firsthand.net wrote:

Hi all,

long time reader, first time poster.
Since I am an Omni-(pretty much -all)-user and not too long ago they
successfully offered a (free) possibility to successfully solve the whole
syncing issue, I was thinking isn't that also a possibility for BB ?
Of course offering syncing technology/infrastructure would open another
front, but ultimately this is a thing BB could control.
I am more than open to pay for it, even if it is separate from other
services. At the end it would/need to serve only one particular purpose.

My '02.

Cheers

Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2012 17:09:12 UTC+2 schrieb Brian Brown-Cashdollar:

On 30 Jul 2012, at 02:10, Steven J Klein wrote:

That sounds hopeful.

This is an interesting article. Thank you for the link. Drew McCormack the author helps explain only some of the important design components. Perhaps enough to make a rough and ready sync project but not enough to explain the policy consequences on user control over their content.

The design is obscure and he makes a good job in showing how obscure. His description of the CoreData Transaction plist only to fail to explain the third number out of three is jaw dropping admission of how obscure the design is for developers.

So it turns out to be a bit less hopeful

then he writes

"Importing Transactions

When import logs are transferred to a device, Core Data attempts to import them into the local store. The exact details of this are very vague. Basically, the process is private, and Apple do not provide any hooks into the import procedure."

This obscurity is very obscure isn't it!

From an architecture perspective this article shows developers are in the dark to describe the design structure of the import functionality let alone what goes on within the Apple server services. So how are they to shine a light on the end to end transaction to their users in turn?

No doubt one can get to the bottom of this as a developer in a few days or weeks or months of effort to implement a sync service. What it does not get to the bottom of is what happens in the bits the developer cannot see nor appear able to describe in the network, servers and any intermediate system components.  

I have a little experience. :-)
but happy to keep learning ...

thanks

Christian

At 09:32 -0700 07/30/2012, augenmensch wrote:

[...]

Though we did consider this approach amongst a range of potential options,
I regret it's not feasible for Yojimbo's needs.

Regards,

 Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc.                      <http://www.barebones.com>
P.O. Box 1048, Bedford, MA 01730-1048

Brian,  

I couldn't have said this better myself.

I started this thread over a month ago and am still waiting along with
everyone else.   While I am sympathetic to BB's plight, the bottom line is
that I don't really care if it is an Apple issue, a BB issue, a core data
issue, or whatever.  I just want it to work.  And while the prior versions
are fine and have worked well, I now have multiple devices (iMac, MAcBook,
IPad, iPhone, etc.) and find that it is very inconvenient to consolidate
all my info to one device.  So, I just use Yojimbo less and less.  And the
fact that a solution was promised, but not delivered, has caused me to
loose a little bit of trust too.

You know, the Mac customer base is changing, and has been for a while.  I
am not a programmer or in the computer industry, but appreciate  products
and things that work well. I have been a Mac guy for a long while, after
getting completely frustrated with Window in the late 1990s.  But gone are
the days where the Mac customer base was willing to put up with all kinds
of of inconveniences to help protect the Mac or its developers.  As the
customer base expands, people are bringing in a non-tech, it just works
well mind set (and expectations) from the iPhone. I think Apple has
realized this (or driven it there) with the convenience of the AppStore,
MusicMatch,and iCloud.  And it is here to stay.

Last month, I sent an email to an well-known independent Mac developer of a
program that I use frequently that just suddenly stopped working for no
apparent reason.  I asked him if he had an app store version so I could buy
it (again, I would add) because I appreciated the convenience of the App
Store.  I got back a two page diatribe about the evils of the App Store,
that he would never support it, and that I needed to install his program
and reinstall it again from his site to get it to work.  Ok . . .I did it
(because I really like his program), but it was inconvenient and I will
probably never install it on another computer simply because I will forget
I have it (I had to go back into 4 years of email just to find the original
serial number).  And when I upgrade computers next time, I probably wont
install it all - I will go through my AppStore lust of app, not see it and
forget about it.  By then, someone almost certainly have put out a MacStore
app that is almost as good as his and I will download it instead.  

People just want it to work and for it to be as seamless as possible. It is
just human nature.  I hope BB gets it right with Yojimbo.  I feel confident
that they will. But everyday gone by is another day that I have to think
about my data and moving stuff around, and another day that I will lose
touch with BB and turn to other solutions - a simple but unfortunate fact

- Rob

And how right you are. Yojimbo is Bare Bones Software product, and
Yojimbo users are Bare Bones Software's customers, and the
responsibility for this rests on Bare Bones Software. They made a
technology choice which at the time seemed right, but which in
retrospect has burned them and which is now hurting their customers.
All the public communication I've seen from Bare Bones Software
regarding this issue suggests that they take this responsibility very
seriously and are doing everything in their power to rectify it and to
serve their customers the best way they know how.

I think the thing to do now is to grit your teeth at the inconvenience
and hunker down to wait until they manage to fix it; or, if sync is
/that/ critical and time-sensitive to you, to bite the bullet and
migrate to whatever solution does work for you. Because I very much
doubt that anyone cares more, or considers it more critical, than Bare
Bones Software does: if there was /any/ way they could resolve it
sooner they would have done so. Putting pressure on them is, while a
natural way to react, in practice unnecessary (the priority meter on
this is most likely allready redlined) and will probably not achieve
anything except exacerbate their collective ulcers.

It's a sucky situation all around; and for Bare Bones Software
probably more than anyone else (I *really* don't envy them right now).

Cheers,
Terje

Rob,

It's just not as simple as everyone wants it to be. And in some ways that's the basic problem with both the App Store and iCloud. In order to make it "just work" as you said in your email, Apple has imposed some severe restrictions on how they can be used and what can go in them. That's fine for single-data-type apps, but for more complex software that may not work.

You didn't say what the "ranting" developer's program is so let's take 1Password as an example. 1Password and Yojimbo look similar on the outside. They both have bits of information, they both have records, they both have fields in those records.1Password can sync multiple open copies, Yojimbo doesn't. But there's a huge difference between 1Password's data and Yojimbo's. 1Password has tiny bits of data, and it's all just plain text. Yojimbo on the other hand can have all sorts of data types, of all sorts of kinds. For 1Password, it's "easy" to sync because all you have to do is make sure your two different copies of the text are not writing the same record at the same time. Yojimbo on the other hand is a complex database that can store all sorts of things, including objects. 1Password is essentially reading a text file, Yojimbo is essentially a database and a file system too. That's two completely different things.

So instead of comparing Yojimbo to 1Password, let's compare it to something that's more similar, something that's a database. I'm picking FileMaker. Now I've not tried to put a FileMaker database file on iCloud to see if it works, nor have I done any research on that yet. But that's not really the point here. The point is that in order to be simultaneously shared FileMaker's complex database files need their own server to host the files. For under 10 users that can be done by the application itself as it has a basic server built-in. Cool! However, FileMaker costs $300. (It's also owned by Apple, I might add.) And if you want more than 10 users in FileMaker you have to get FileMaker Server too, and that *starts* at $1,000 (but note that you still need those $300 copies of regular FileMaker too). Yojimbo on the other hand costs under $40.

So everyone's all like, "dude, you guys suck, man" because the awesome custom database app they like doesn't do a couple of things their $300 (or really $1,300) "competitor" does.

So the bottom line is that iCloud isn't a server, and that's what Yojimbo might really need in order to do what everyone wants. Yojimbo started out life as a one-computer data repository, and they made it so you could open the file from multiple locations but only one at a time. What you're asking it to be though is a complex server-based database. There are also very tight restrictions on what apps using iCloud and the App Store are allowed to do.

Programming isn't a magic wand, it's actually really hard. And Yojimbo isn't a giant company, and they don't only have one product. (When am I going to get a Notification Center friendly version of WeatherCal that doesn't trigger notifications every hour for each of its five days worth of forecasts, dagnabbit?!?!?!?!?! I demand that BareBones update this app immediately! :-)

As an example of this, I use TextExpander. It must have corrected 43 typos already in just this one email. It's awesome software. It's on the Mac and on iDevices too. The Mac version just works, but the iPhone version, well, not so much. And people are outraged by that. But hey, Apple doesn't allow one app on the iPhone to interact with another, so it's pretty near impossible to have one app monitor what another app is typing. And that's what you have in the App Store on the Mac; very tight restrictions and very controlled functionality.

So no, not every app you want to buy will be allowed in the App Store, and not every app you use will work with iCloud. Yojimbo, although it looks simple, is really not simple at all. It's got tagging and palettes and floating windows with clickable text buttons and multiple data types and a mini search engine and file storage and and and.

It ain't that simple.

Seth

As I understand it, Barebones haven't yet succeeded in getting iCloud to
work properly.

2012年7月30日月曜日 19時31分20秒 UTC+9 jamesbisset:

Rich, thanks. Your communications help. A lot.

Here's why: until I read your post, I was siding with Apple on this. Now, I
have a much better understanding of the matter. While it is an
inconvenience, I have been using Yojimbo since version 1.0 and love it. I
think what you need to do on your end is communicate clearly with your
customers. Post an official update at least twice monthly.

If you have great communications, I and I suspect most of your customers
will understand. What people don't like is not hearing anything and not
knowing what's going on.

Sorry - I missed a bit:

Barebones are not alone in struggling to get iCloud to work...

   Jim

--
James Bisset
m e d i a c h r o m e
http://www.mediachrome.com

On 31 Jul 2012, at 13:07, rickdude wrote:

+ 1 - I am still in pain but I feel better knowing what is going on ....

And I understand that BB may be under a NDA, as a member of Apple Developer programs or otherwise and I know full well that this can make 100% "honestly" communication rather terse .... verging on deceptive ... I get it... BB is small ... Apple has lot of lawyers and is not afraid to protect it's brand ....

Terry

_______________________________________
Terry J Fundak
Systems Engineer
Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
1834 Chadwick Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 849-1000
(415) 877-1783
te...@tjsoftworks.com

On Jul 31, 2012, at 07:23, Urban Weigl wrote:

smime.p7s 6K Download

Seth:

Thank you for your post.  I do understand that programing is hard.  God
knows that I cant do it.  Especially on the scale and quality of BB.  I
can't even type - I am a one finger wonder:)

I guess my point is to follow up on what Brian was saying.  Yojimbo's main
selling point is its simplicity and ease of use.  And when that goes away
or deteriorates because I have to think about what I am doing, where the
data is going, or which device it is stored on, I will just use it less
often.  I also have copies of Bento and Filemaker.  They can store the same
type of data as Yojimbo, but are much more complex.  I dont use them near
as often, but only for certain types of data or projects.  What I love
about Yojimbo is that it doesn't matter what I throw at it, it stores and
saves everthing - easily.  I hope BB can find a solution - I am confident
that they will.  I just wish that they had communicated the issues better
before June 30th when MM expired.

I suppose I will try the Dropbox solution or Sidekick or something.  I have
been reluctant to do Dropbox for fear of corrupting my data.  But it
appears I may have to move it somewhere else anyway now.

I know customers, especially software customers, can be completely
unreasonable.  I am dumbfounded by all the ridiculous reviews on the App
store complaining about apps that cost $4.99, because the reviewer thinks
is only worth $0.99.  Give me a break.  For the price of a beer, you bought
someone's intellectual capital that ought to make your life easier.  It it
doesn't, so what.  You only spent a 5 bucks.  An investment so little as to
be almost comical.  Be more careful next time. And don't try to tell the
developer what to charge.  Let the market dictate that.  

I am not trying to be unreasonable.  I didn't provide the name of the
"ranting" developer on purpose - no need to. And there is no need to speak
ill of BB.  I know they are bothered by this more than anyone else.  But
customers are unforgiving and will move on when they have to.  It is just
human nature. A quick story.  I was a military reservist and was
involuntarily recalled to active duty after 9/11.  All my clients were very
supportive and stuck by me . . . until they couldn't.  During the year I
was gone, almost all my clients left.  It wasn't because they hated me or
didn't want to support me or the war.  It was simply because they needed
something, I was no longer there to provide it, and there were 50 other
people that could.  Maybe not as good as I could, but my clients needed it
now.  Some held out longer than others, but eventually they all came to
realize that I wasn't there to help them and someone else was.  That isn't
fair - I was off fighting for them for Christ sake - but it is reality.
 And that is where Yojimbo is right now with their customers - somewhere
between waiting and moving on.

- Rob    

Dear Yojimbo team,

It doesn't bother me that iCloud syncing isn't working yet. I can make do
with the Dropbox syncing. What bothers me is that I delayed switching to
iCloud until after the MobileMe sunset date because I trusted BB when they
said that iCloud syncing would be resolved "well before the MobileMe sunset
date." This impacted other software that I use negatively, but I kept on
the MobileMe bandwagon because I was waiting for the Yojimbo update that
was sure to arrive any day. Of course, the update didn't arrive, and I had
to migrate to iCloud *and* have a non-syncing version of Yojimbo while I
was in the middle of traveling between three countries. For now I have
migrated to iCloud and am using the Dropbox syncing solution, which is nice
whenever I remember to quit Yojimbo as I stop using one of my computers.

So yes, I understand that iCloud syncing is a sticky situation. I
understand that BB are paying for Apple's decisions and problems. I am very
understanding of the technical predicament you are in, and I am a loyal
Yojimbo user who is rooting for you guys to find a solution that is up to
your high standards. I just wish you guys had been more open in how you
communicated with your customers. It would have been nice to get a heads up
in March, or April, or May, or hell even in June that it looked like iCloud
syncing wasn't going to be ready prior to the MobileMe sunset date. If I
even had a week's notice, then I could have planned out a migration
strategy that would have been painless and not a last-minute rush.

When you talk about having "higher standards" when it comes to your
development, I appreciate the sentiment. Maybe now's the time to have
higher standards when it comes to how you communicate with your users.
Telling us that iCloud syncing would be resolved "well before the MobileMe
sunset date" may have been honest in 2011, but it certainly wasn't honest
in June 2012, and I suspect it wasn't really honest in May 2012 either.
Obviously this is a one-time occurrence, but it has definitely left a bad
taste in my mouth. Six months ago I loved Yojimbo so much that I delayed a
major Apple upgrade just because of Yojimbo. Six months ago I trusted
BareBones so much as a company that I was willing to rely on your word that
iCloud syncing would come prior to the MobileMe sunset date. As of August
2012, that trust has eroded and my love of Yojimbo has turned into
utilitarian reliance.

You have spent years building up a wonderful reputation and brand as an
independent software developer. Please know that this reputation is not
just based on your software. It's also based on how you communicate with
your users. We make decisions that impact our lives based on the
information you give us, and please keep that in mind from now on.

Best wishes,
Keith Calder

Very nicely articulated Keith (pardon my rather arbitrary snips), and
I suspect that's the way a lot of users feel right now. And I
certainly don't intend this message to be taken as an argument
against; nor, I would suspect, would Bare Bones disagree or in any way
begrudge your position here. I expect they feel your frustration
tenfold.

However, making some educated guesses based solely on what I have seen
as an external observer, and by trying to put myself in Bare Bones'
shoes... The goal of releasing iCloud support in time probably looked
achievable (if an increasingly close shave) all the way until the
final week before the MobileMe sunset; and then they hit some
insurmountable (in the relevant time period) bug or limitation in
iCloud...

At that point Bare Bones would no longer be in control of the schedule
and entirely dependent on Apple to make progress. I'd be willing to
bet that the message to customers informing them that they wouldn't be
able to make the sunset date was sent some period of time that could
be reasonably measured in _hours_ (not days) after this state of
affairs was a fact.

Under those circumstances it would be both unproductive and relatively
unprofessional for Bare Bones to point the finger at Apple in their
communication with customers (publicly calling out those on whom you
are entirely dependent for help, both now and in the future, is not
exactly the smartest move you could make). I actually think they've
gone as far as they could, within the limits of professional courtesy,
in the messages they have sent. (But I have no dog in that race, so
I'll happily point the finger at Apple: the iCloud transition was way
too agressive and left both users and the developers who trusted
Apple's platform in the lurch).

Keeping this in mind, what can they possibly communicate that they
haven't already? They've said they have hit a problem, and that they
are working hard to overcome it, and that they're working closely with
Apple to find a solution. The best they could do would be "We still
have a problem and we're still working to fix it". Or even possibly
they're dependent on bug fixes in iCloud that Apple won't ship until
they release OS X 10.8.1 (or even 10.8.2; but let's really hope that
isn't the case), in which case the developer Non-Disclosure Agreement
(and Apple's policy of never pre-announcing such things) would
actively enjoin them from commenting about it until it's out.

In sum, I think you should take the relative silence to mean that
there simply isn't anything worthwhile to report ("still not fixed,
still working hard"), and the minute, the second, they have a solution
you'll hear about it as fast and as loud as they can manage. The only
caveat to that is that if I were in Bare Bones' shoes right now, the
last thing I would want to do is make another representation
("promise") that I wasn't 110% sure I could keep: so don't expect "We
think we may have it fixed in the next week", but rather "It is now
fixed and released and ready for download".

In other words, my advice is to grit your teeth, swallow your
frustration, and just wait it out: it will eventually get resolved,
you'll hear about it as soon as there is anything to report, and in
the meanwhile it is outside all our collective powers to speed the
process along.

Cheers,
Terje

I agree, the silence is
deafening. http://www.barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html has a post
on June 26, updated June 30th, and another update July 25th. They all say
pretty much the same thing: "Not yet."

More updates would help. Are they still working on it? Is this an issue
with a restriction of the API that is forcing a rearchitecture? Are they
considering alternatives? Are they making progress? Silence could mean
anything, from "We're about to announce the release" to "We've decided to
EOL Yojimbo, but haven't figured out how to tell you yet."

For me, I've now replaced Yojimbo in my workflow for the more critical
things, mainly secure notes storage. But in this silence, I'm starting to
think I should replace Yojimbo in all tasks -- note taking, snippets
collections. Evernote is not at all suitable, but there are other apps out
there. I'm now moving into actively shopping for alternatives. If Yojimbo
comes out with this update eventually, I will consider it, just like I
would any app that might be useful. But the marriage is over.

Laura

At 15:59 -0700 08/16/2012, Keith Calder wrote:

That was a mistake on our part which we realize has inconvenienced many of
you, and for which we apologize.

Regards,

 Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc.                      <http://www.barebones.com>
P.O. Box 1048, Bedford, MA 01730-1048

At 08:43 -0700 08/18/2012, Laura wrote:

Yes, we are still working hard to complete adding iCloud support to
Yojimbo, and we apologize for the delay.

We will continue to post status updates both here and on our website
whenever we have new information to offer:

 <http://www.barebones.com/support/yojimbo/icloud.html>

and I'll also post weekly notes here even if we do not.

Regards,

 Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc.                      <http://www.barebones.com>
P.O. Box 1048, Bedford, MA 01730-1048

Thank you Patrick. I really appreciate this response, and your offer to
post weekly updates here. And fingers crossed that team BB can successfully
wrestle the iCloud alligator!

 - keith

Patrick,

Thank You for recognizing that the Communication/Status on this issue is important.
Your commitment to regular status updates will go all long way with your customers.

Good Luck
DavidH

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-08-18, at 4:04 PM, Patrick Woolsey <pwool...@barebones.com> wrote: