16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

[Steven Caron]

hey gang

am i right on this? i am trying to see a 16bit tif file inside softimage without luck.

steven

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Any sort of compression per chance?
Not too sure about 16bit, but most compression schemes have been a flat no-go for me before when it comes to tifs and PS.

--
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!

[Steven Caron]

no compression... i am converting them to an optimal rendering format for arnold during publish. in the mean time when developing an asset this is what my typical settings are when saving from PS.

compression = none
pixel order = interleaved
byte order = ibm pc
save image pyramid = off
layer compression = discard layers and save a copy

s

[Rob Chapman]

bet you its CMYK and not RGB :)

[Simon van de Lagemaat]

I've had success with 16bpp greyscale tiffs (heightmaps mostly) but
generally I use exr if I'm going above 8bpp, just a much more
predictable format when extra depth is required.

[Steven Caron]

nope, its RGB

[Matt Lind]

It is using LZW compression by chance?

 

 

Matt

[Steven Caron]

not on purpose... the settings i choose out of photoshop for compression is none and discard layers

[Matt Lind]

Fun imginfo.exe and imf_info.exe on the file and see if anything peculiar shows up.

[Steven Caron]

>imf_info.exe C:\temp\blue_chair_color.tif
 width height comp bits gamma line  type     format   file
  2048   2048    4   16     1 down  rgba_16  tif      C:\temp\blue_chair_color.tif

doesn't say anything about compression, i am pretty sure its not compression... unless photoshop is doing something i didn't ask it to. arnold reads the image fine its just the display in softimage...

s

[Matt Lind]

Imginfo.exe will tell you compression scheme

 

Matt

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 4:09 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

 

>imf_info.exe C:\temp\blue_chair_color.tif

[Steven Caron]

that utility is useless...

>imginfo.exe c:\temp\blue_chair_8bit.tif
Unable to open: c:\temp\blue_chair_8bit.tif

>imginfo.exe c:\temp\blue_chair_16bit.tif
Unable to open: c:\temp\blue_chair_16bit.tif

i used oiiotool.exe and i got better information...

>oiiotool.exe --info c:\temp\blue_chair_8bit.tif
blue_chair_8bit.tif  : 2048 x 2048, 7 channel, uint8 tiff

i noticed the 7 channels and checked my channels back in photoshop... sure enough i had some extra channels that got made automatically when saving selections and creating brushes. all is well inside softimage now.

[Ponthieux, Joey]

Nawwww. Photoshop would NEVER do thaaaaat.


Joey Ponthieux

____________________________________________________________
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

On 11/15/2012 7:08 PM, Steven Caron wrote:
> .....unless photoshop is doing something i didn't ask it to.

[Gene Crucean]

.tif's =  the devil

... that is all

--
Gene Crucean - Emmy winning - Oscar nominated VFX Supervisor / iOS-OSX Developer / Filmmaker / Photographer

** Freelance for hire **
www.genecrucean.com

~~ Please use my website's contact form on www.genecrucean.com for any personal emails. Thanks. I may not get them at this address. ~~

[Simon van de Lagemaat]

What do people here use as a standard format? I always thought tiff
was the least offensive format but after running into some issues with
the byte order bs we're wondering if png's might be better?

[Steven Caron]

tifs are perfectly fine... they support many bit depths, mip mapping, and tiling. i did a comparison to exr as a texture format years ago and OIIO/Arnold liked the tif files better.

s

[Steven Caron]

oh i should add, tifs are perfectly fine in arnold... they have been a pain in the past with mental ray, but fortunately i dont have to use mental ray much if at all anymore.

s

[Gene Crucean]

That's exactly why I hate them. Wayyyy too many flavors and options for people to f**k up. Yes they support a lot of features... but I almost never want any of them, and I don't want texture guys saving them with layers using lzw compression in cmyk ;)

Seriously. They suck :P

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Stephen Davidson]

I use PSD files, as textures in Softimage, no problem. It evens sees the transparency (32 bit).

I have had issues with TIFF

--

Best Regards,
  Stephen P. Davidson 
       (954) 552-7956
    sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com

[Steven Caron]

psd files dont render in arnold ;(

[Steven Caron]

but thats more photoshop's fault...

openexr has support for many different compression options...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenEXR#Compression_methods

it could save photoshop layers as channels and with proexr plugin i believe you can. now with openexr 2.0 coming out they have support for multiple images for stereo and deep image data for volumetric effects.

now are you sure want your texture artist using openexr? how does softimage or arnold handle all these new flavors?

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Totally, why on earth would anyone ever want some functionality or versatility?! Down with it! Bring MS' bmp back, I say.

[Eric Thivierge]

Tiffs apparently don't work on Apple machines. :P 

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Alan Fregtman]

bmp?! Now you're talking fancy... XPM files all the way!

[Martin]

In gaming production we have even more format problems, and even different formats with the same extension like Nintendo's NW4C TGA (not the same as Truevision TGA). So I use to script something simple with Photoshop's Script Listener. Using Script Listener's log and editing a few lines is good enough to avoid human errors. (you'll need to use VBS if you want to read the HDD)

I usually use PSDs (with lots of layers) for Softimage and TGA, TIFF, DDS, etc for rendering / exporting to game format.

I wrote a tool for this, if you like:

http://vimeo.com/46045562

(the video is from an old version but the main functions are the same)

It doesn't support 16bit format conversions though.

M.Yara

[Gene Crucean]

The problem, is that they constantly break things or just don't work. If you can get them to work consistently on your end... more power to ya.

bmp? xpm? Naa... photos. Analog. Keepin it real over here.

[olivier jeannel]

Hi guys,

Now that I'm starting enjoying playing with Ice and particle stuff,
clients are asking for ...modelling job ^^

I realize I never charged separatly for this task alone. So my question
is how much do you (freelance, homeworkers) charge for 1 character
modeling ? (How much do you keep in your pocket in the end (forget the
taxes))

Typicaly, quadrupede / Biped, realistic proportions anatomy but rather
for toon / NPA / stylized rendering results.
In short, only polygonal modeling, (no Zbrush, no hair)

How much do you cost :)

[Marc-Andre Carbonneau]

We use tiffs across the board here and never get these ugly problems you’re describing.

A good pipeline, a clean workflow and some Photoshop actions avoid human interactions when it comes time to spit out files for rendering. J

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Gene Crucean
Sent: 15 novembre 2012 23:15
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

 

The problem, is that they constantly break things or just don't work. If you can get them to work consistently on your end... more power to ya.

[Jonathan Laborde]

We run Softimage In linux (centos 6) here, and we have discovered that Tiff files with a certain compression make it crash instantly. I don't remember which one it is as we use exr most of the time but once in a while we receive an image from a client in tiff and it crashes everything so we have to convert it to another compression/format.

[Stephen Davidson]

I always estimate per hour.

I have found that I can be quite accurate with an hourly estimate

by breaking down the modeling to it's most basic components.

For example, on a character model, how long to model each eye.

How long to model basic body shape. How long to model hands,

face, expressions (if needed), clothes... you get the idea.

Then, add up all the tasks, and you will have a fairly accurate estimate.

It takes practice, as my early quotes were not so accurate. I have

been working in 3D since before Softimage version 1 so I have gotten more

accurate over the years.

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

Tiff are indeed fine - unfortunately many apps have not implemented the full API of Tiff and support multiple channels.

Does this tiff load in the flipbook or fxtree?

I saw an bug report here about the latest mental ray version not being able to load tiff that had more than 4 channels, maybe you're running into that.

[Adam Seeley]

I use png's as much as possible, never seems to be a problem with texturing or rendering.

Good lossless compression keeps re-load times down when compositing.

Flame/Smoke can't load them of course!

Adam

---

From: Simon van de Lagemaat <si...@theembassyvfx.com>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2012, 21:06

Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

[Steven Caron]

they have no mip mapping support and it was primarily for web development... no thanks

[Steven Caron]

no, it says.. 'No file parser to read this image type : c:\temp\7channels.tif'

it seems to be just the extra channels throwing the parser off, cause it opens the 4 channels 16bit flavor fine.

also, this isn't mental ray unless softimage is somehow using mental ray's image library to load files for display inside softimage?

s

[Gene Crucean]

png is an excellent format regardless of what it was designed for. But yes, it's true they aren't for everything.

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

Mental ray on supports 8 bit png, afaik

[Steven Caron]

slow chant... tif... tif.. tif. tif tif.

:)

[Ponthieux, Joey]

So I am curious why no one is using SI pic? That is the native format.

Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
____________________________________________________________
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

[Simon van de Lagemaat]

Lol! You just made our pipeline guy a happy camper now that he knows
what was randomly crashing soft out when processing assets.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Laborde
<labord...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We run Softimage In linux (centos 6) here, and we have discovered that Tiff
> files with a certain compression make it crash instantly. I don't remember
> which one it is as we use exr most of the time but once in a while we
> receive an image from a client in tiff and it crashes everything so we have
> to convert it to another compression/format.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Marc-Andre Carbonneau
> <marc-andre...@ubisoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> We use tiffs across the board here and never get these ugly problems

>> you�re describing.

[Matt Lind]

Many reasons:

 

-          3^rd party applications have little or no support.  Even the photoshop .pic plugin is out of date.

-          The web has emerged as a tools and communications platform.  Browsers don’t support display of .pic.

-          Artists like to see thumbnails in filesystem tools like windows explorer.  While a plugin can be written, none has.

-          The .pic file format is 8-bit only.  There are hooks in the format to extend it, but nobody has touched that code in over 15 years.

 

If you live strictly inside of Softimage, .pic would be a good choice.  But since production often involves all sorts of applications working together, .pic can be a hinderance from lack of support.

 

Matt

[Adam Seeley]

Arnold will render out to png's as well.

.Sgi & .exr for higher bit levels.

If it's heading for flame/smoke then I think sgi's are the best best for import speed as it's a native format. Might not be true any more but it used to reduce import times for heavy sequences hugely.

Tif's & tga's always remind me of 1970's & concrete for some reason. I get a sinking feeling when ever I'm given them to deal with.

Adam
(png, png, png)

---

From: Luc-Eric Rousseau <luce...@gmail.com>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Sent: Friday, 16 November 2012, 13:29

[Leoung O'Young]

We like pic too, smaller than tifs.
We did have some problem with pic in some of the Photoshop versions
when the pic alpha channel layer gets change to transparency layer

[Ponthieux, Joey]

When it comes to the way Photoshop handles alphas, thats a fundamental philosophical issue(I'm struggling to be polite here) that Adobe developers have that affects far more formats than just pic. There are ways to get pic files out of Photoshop the way that animators want them, but due to the Adobe philosophy its a complicated and incredibly time consuming effort and error prone process when it should not be.

I guess what I am really curious about is why there is so much interest by folks in using these non-native formats which are filled with all sorts of extra stuff such as layers, channels, paths, metadata, and potentially incompatible compressions schemes.  Do they provide seriously important value over the native formats(pic in Softimage, iff in Maya) to warrant the risks?

Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
____________________________________________________________
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

[olivier jeannel]

I won't be able to be that precise, as I usualy don't count in hours.
Thus I think for modelling a 1 character 4 or 5 days is a maximum.

But, really I'd like someone to give me a price example.
are you usually speaking in hundreds or thousands of euros ? I don't really know...

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

XSI really doesn't have a "Native format", it just has a default value in the rendering ppg .pic is just a file format like the others; there is no additional conversion when using the other format in Softimage, or loss of meta-data.  All the image file formats in softimage have the API. Plus, if you're rendering with mental ray.. .it's just one of the format mental ray supports.

It was kind of native in Softimage|3D's renderer. In XSI, .pic is just the file format default due to inertia and fear of change.

[Stephen Davidson]

I would then price it per day. 8  hour days.

I charge approx. $400/day (314.2924 euros)

[Ponthieux, Joey]

But am i incorrect in the assumption that of all those formats Pic is the only format the Softimage developers have full control over? IE they have the ability to modify its structure at will? Doesn't that classify it as native to Softimage?

I realize that when the image library .so was made available what...back in 99?...we were able to access other formats and that in XSI it really is more transparent than in SI3D.

But the question really wasn't.... why did Softimage decide to label this very standard run length encoded rgb image which isn't all that much different than .rgb or .sgi as the Softimage default. The question is what advantages do these other formats, with all their risky "extras", provide the user to warrant the risk?

So far I've gotten 16-bit support as a significant reason. Everything else is about ease of use in the browser, thumbnails etc, or photoshop hates pic. Those aren't compelling reasons to offset the risks. When PSD files first became available to use in Softimage I gave up trying to get these things to work reliably all the time. Same for tiff. Lzw or not lzw, that is the question. How does all that affect things if you plan on using mipmaps? There is too much extra stuff in these high order image formats.  Does any of this extra "stuff" provide an advantage that outweighs the risk that an image might load, acts like its gonna work fine, but decides to crap out at 3am when just the right(or wrong) scene conditions occur.

I can think of no time when pic ever failed me in Soft. Bear in mind this is a philosophy that I developed over decades from experiences on SGI and with other apps than just Softimage. I decided somewhere along the way that sleep was more important than the fact that I could use a PSD file. In Soft I only use pic. In Maya i use iff and converted to mipmaps, especially on large stuff. So granted I am working from a legacy mindset. However, I kinda would like to know has something changed dramatically enough to make this level of risk more worthwhile, even though I seriously doubt that stability from these non default formats has improved any. We wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise.

Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
____________________________________________________________
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

[Matt Lind]

While you can certainly use .pic for Softimage, .iff for Maya and so on, when you’re in a large scale mixed application environment you’ll have to constantly convert images from format to format to make them compatible for the end use case.  That is what people want to avoid most as it’s a time consuming hassle and duplication of data which leads to other ancillary issues such as asset dependencies going out of sync with the asset which references them.

 

As I said earlier, asset management, web tools, etc. often do not support .pic or .iff and other 3D application specific file formats.  They stick to vanilla .tga, .jpg, .png, .bmp, and sometimes .tif.  Users are tired of waiting for file format compatibility from each application or trying to find the happy medium in between.  If the DCC application can accommodate those vanilla formats and still meet the project requirements, then users will do that as it’s the path of lesser resistance.

 

Personally, I would love to use .pic as it compresses very well (better than .jpg), but reality is it’s not receiving any love.  I looked at the .pic SDK in the past and remember seeing extensions in place for shadows, matte, and other channels, but it’s all still 8-bit.  I think there’s a header section for defining new things like bit depth, but new routines would need to be written to support the changes.  It could be done, but at that point you’re practically writing a new file format.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joey
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:32 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

 

But am i incorrect in the assumption that of all those formats Pic is the only format the Softimage developers have full control over? IE they have the ability to modify its structure at will? Doesn't that classify it as native to Softimage?

[olivier jeannel]

Ok Thank you !
So, 400$ * 4 or 5 days for 1 character is not over-priced according to you ?

[Octavian Ureche]

I remember doing a commercial for a studio here (eastern europe),

and we outsourced a horse model to a friend of mine who now happens to work at lionhead. Point was, it took him 3 days, i recall, to do it, and it cost 1000 euros.

And that was 4 or 5 years ago, and it wasn't considered that expensive, and we're talking eastern europe here. Don't know if the prices have changed that much since then in the modelling area, but i thought it might be food for thought.

But the guy had an impressive portfolio even back then.

On the other hand, i had a friend who recently hired a ubisoft guy with a rather poor portfolio to model a toycar, and he did it for 400 in 4 days.

Don't know if it matters whether it's cartoony or realistic, but i think your portfolio will also help dictate the amount of money that you can or can't charge.

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

[Octavian Ureche]

PS. the horse was fairly realistic and had a lot of zbrush love put into it.

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

[olivier jeannel]

Ah thank's, that helps.
Well, the clients seems rather "new" in the 3d field. (nothing like Lionsgate, or big studio) So I'm not sure how they'll react to the range of price.
Thank's a lot for your examples :)

[Tim Leydecker]

Given you�re mail account, you�re based in France.

That�s EU territory. 19% VAT.

I guess remote work, home office. Your own equipment, hardware and software.

Your own hours plus the above overhead.


You guess it would take you 4-5 days to complete the task.

Adding 3 revision steps to that means another 3 days of handling

your milestones, e.g. communication and revision loops with your client.

That�s 7-8 days for finishing a 3 D character model.

That�s very fast and seems to not include the concept/art-direction bit too much.

Especially when working with a fresh client who may only be able to judge

finished, e.g. fully built, textured, shaded and lit renderings.


I would suggest a small boutique shop price per day, which is at least around 750 EUR/day.

Because that�s what you do, besides modeling.

Coming from a graphics design backround, list prices I can relate to range
in the 60 EUR/hr range but would not include additional fees for usage
of artworks. These fees for, let�s say a worldwide, unlimited use of your character
may easily be factor 10.

For a reason.

Cheers,

tim

On 17.11.2012 15:24, olivier jeannel wrote:
> Ah thank's, that helps.
> Well, the clients seems rather "new" in the 3d field. (nothing like Lionsgate, or big studio) So I'm not sure how they'll react to the range of price.
> Thank's a lot for your examples :)
>
>
>
>

> Le 17/11/2012 14:58, Octavian Ureche a �crit :

>> I remember doing a commercial for a studio here (eastern europe),
>> and we outsourced a horse model to a friend of mine who now happens to work at lionhead. Point was, it took him 3 days, i recall, to do it, and it cost 1000 euros.
>> And that was 4 or 5 years ago, and it wasn't considered that expensive, and we're talking eastern europe here. Don't know if the prices have changed that much since then in the
>> modelling area, but i thought it might be food for thought.
>> But the guy had an impressive portfolio even back then.
>> On the other hand, i had a friend who recently hired a ubisoft guy with a rather poor portfolio to model a toycar, and he did it for 400 in 4 days.
>>
>> Don't know if it matters whether it's cartoony or realistic, but i think your portfolio will also help dictate the amount of money that you can or can't charge.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 3:02 PM, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok Thank you !
>> So, 400$ * 4 or 5 days for 1 character is not over-priced according to you ?
>>
>>

>> Le 16/11/2012 22:47, Stephen Davidson a �crit :

>>> I would then price it per day. 8 hour days.
>>> I charge approx. $400/day (314.2924 euros)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I won't be able to be that precise, as I usualy don't count in hours.
>>> Thus I think for modelling a 1 character 4 or 5 days is a maximum.
>>>
>>> But, really I'd like someone to give me a price example.
>>> are you usually speaking in hundreds or thousands of euros ? I don't really know...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> Le 16/11/2012 16:36, Stephen Davidson a �crit :

>>>> I always estimate per hour.
>>>> I have found that I can be quite accurate with an hourly estimate
>>>> by breaking down the modeling to it's most basic components.
>>>> For example, on a character model, how long to model each eye.
>>>> How long to model basic body shape. How long to model hands,
>>>> face, expressions (if needed), clothes... you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Then, add up all the tasks, and you will have a fairly accurate estimate.
>>>> It takes practice, as my early quotes were not so accurate. I have
>>>> been working in 3D since before Softimage version 1 so I have gotten more
>>>> accurate over the years.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:59 AM, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> Now that I'm starting enjoying playing with Ice and particle stuff, clients are asking for ...modelling job ^^
>>>>
>>>> I realize I never charged separatly for this task alone. So my question is how much do you (freelance, homeworkers) charge for 1 character modeling ? (How much do
>>>> you keep in your pocket in the end (forget the taxes))
>>>>
>>>> Typicaly, quadrupede / Biped, realistic proportions anatomy but rather for toon / NPA / stylized rendering results.
>>>> In short, only polygonal modeling, (no Zbrush, no hair)
>>>>
>>>> How much do you cost :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,

>>>> * Stephen P. Davidson**
>>>> **(954) 552-7956 <tel:%28954%29%20552-7956>
>>>> * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> * Stephen P. Davidson**
>>> **(954) 552-7956
>>> * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>
>>> <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> visual | stuff
>> www.okto.ro <http://www.okto.ro>
>

[Eric Cosky]

This is the most intriguing comment in this thread to me – I never considered using images with mipmaps for rendering in Softimage. I didn’t realize any file formats outside of DDS even supported them, and it never crossed my mind that Softimage would use them for rendering if available. I assumed the renderer would create them on the fly as needed, which it seems would only incur a small load time cost with the same end result. I’d be interested in hearing more about why & how people typically setup and use mipmaps for Softimage, in particular, is there any practical difference in the resulting image or time of rendering?

Thanks

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:12 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

 

tifs are perfectly fine... they support many bit depths, mip mapping, and tiling. i did a comparison to exr as a texture format years ago and OIIO/Arnold liked the tif files better.

s

[olivier jeannel]

Thank's Tim :)
Pretty precize :D


Le 17/11/2012 16:06, Tim Leydecker a �crit :

[Steven Caron]

its not for softimage, its for arnold. arnold uses open image io which does support automatic mip mapping but we dont use it much... i can't be sure that softimage uses available mip map levels for displaying in the viewport.

s

[Alan Fregtman]

Arnold has the "maketx" commandline utility to make .tx files out of textures. At work we made a batch job for the farm that converts a scene's textures to (mipmapped) .tx for Arnold's sake.

In the renderer options somewhere there is a toggle to make Arnold use .tx files if it finds them in the same root as the texture paths. It's pretty handy.

[Steven Caron]

yep :)

"...i am converting them to an optimal rendering format for arnold during publish..."

also, i believe a .tx format is actually a tif or exr format underneath. the extension is really just to say to the user this has been processed by the maketx utility.

[Szabolcs Matefy]

Wow, very nice information. However, there were times, when I was told I am fairly expensive with my 100Euros (without VAT) rate per day...And I'm in Eastern Europe as well, and the statement was made by a company in the UK.

Cheers


Szabolcs

-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of olivier jeannel
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

[Octavian Ureche]

This is interesting, and i think it mostly revolves around making certain things clear beforehand.

Notice that whenever you do the math based on what an employee's rate would be, you always come up

with ridiculously low sums of money from a freelance perspective.

At first glance, 100 eur/day to me feels like borderline insulting for a freelance rate.

But, if we do a little basic math, at that rate, an employee would get 2k / month, and that includes healthcare and vacation. Which for eastern european standards, is a very good salary.

Now as a freelancer, jobs are usually scarce (except if u're on a roll, which i don't think happens that often).

So you need to plan your lifestyle accordingly. Backup plans and savings are crucial. Also as a freelancer you have to add extra expenses to your rates, like electricity, renderfarm costs (if u'r pulling heavy stuff that you can't possibly render at home), subcontracting costs (we all need a hand from time to time), rent for the apt you're living in, food, heating or cooling expenses etc. That adds a considerable amount of money to that rate. Something which does not apply to an employee which basically gets all this for free at the working place (apart from food maybe). The studio on the other hand adds these to it's hourly rate, which includes employee expenses.

So while in theory, 100 eur/day sounds like a good fulltime salary, for a freelancer, it would give a whole new meaning to life (survival training might be necessary here).

Keep in mind, everything i wrote, is based on eastern european experience, but i presume it's the same 

everywhere else. Numbers vary, but the theory stays the same.

Peace,

O

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szab...@crytek.com> wrote:

Wow, very nice information. However, there were times, when I was told I am fairly expensive with my 100Euros (without VAT) rate per day...And I'm in Eastern Europe as well, and the statement was made by a company in the UK.

Cheers


Szabolcs

-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of olivier jeannel
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling

Thank's Tim :)
Pretty precize :D

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

[olivier jeannel]

I think it's overall true every where.
On a side note, I'd add that in France when a company hire someone at 100 e/day (salary) it cost 200e/day to the company due to taxes. And on the 100e, the worker has to release back some money for his own taxes, of course.

On the over side, the freelance seems to cost more but you can join him on weekend and on holydays ;)

[Octavian Ureche]

Yap, forgot about tax expenses (they changed the legislation here a couple of years ago, and now they

roam around 5% for small companies, so one tends to neglect that). Other places have it much higher, from what it seems.

Also forgot to add a very important expense (bad eastern european habit...) that has a very strong influence on rate: software maintance/upgrade costs, and also leasing costs for specialised tools.

As a sidenote, i found out through the years, that sometimes it is better to incorporate than to work as a legal freelacer, as taxes are usually lower this way (5% vs 20% here - insane, right?). But this one may really only apply to this part of the world. Also as a freelancer suing someone is a lot harder (or at least threatening to sue - that one usually does the trick). Plus, getting an accountant and starting to tackle the financial side of a business is a must, as it opens up a world of hurt, knowledge and possibilities which every artist should go through to survive in this industry.

Cheers,

Octav

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

[Szabolcs Matefy]

Yep. I consider the 100 EURO / day as a it’s-just-1 cent-above-to-say-no rate…but I was told it’s way above the average, so it was funny. Especially knowing that how much the client charges for the models I made :D

[Byron Nash]

Over here in the US I see a lot of people working for in-house freelance rates from home on their own equipment. This seems unwise to me since hardware/software and other costs are not really taken into account. To me, there is a difference between going into a company and working with their clients on their equipment versus working at home on your own setup. I think these trends are creating a false sense of value to clients. In the long run "freelancers" cannot maintain this economy and the clientele will be accustomed to artificially low rates. 

[Stephen Davidson]

Bidding at a per day rate, or per hour rate, is meaningless to most of your clients.

That is why I bid a job with specific amount for a specific job. I use my per/hour rate

as a guide to help me come up with a figure for the specific project.

A project that might take me 20 hours to complete could take a novice more than

twice that amount of time. I have over 25 years experience so I have learned a lot of 

shortcuts along the way. I also notice that my modeling skills have improved,

over the years, that makes my 3D workflow much more efficient.

The cost of hardware and software have been reduced, drastically over the last

25 years, so that is a consideration in my bids. I also have a home

office, instead of an office located within a video production facility,

which also reduces my operating costs over 10 years ago, when

being in a video production facility had a big advantage.

With on-line collaboration, and delivery, doing 3D animation business, out of a home office,

has never been easier and cheaper. It actually costs me less to operate that

10 years ago. The biggest expense....marketing my services.

Next step... move my studio onto a boat. ;)

[Daniel H]

In general, most artists are terrible practitioners of business and pricing. Obviously every model can vary greatly in detail and complexity. Stephen Davidson has it correct by evaluating time per component and then charging by an hourly rate to establish a starting base point.

You must also master "how to convey value" to your client. You can't just spit-out an overall price or a day rate, because this leaves questions unanswered. The client will ask themselves, why this rate, is this high or low in comparison to other artists, what all am I getting for this price, what is this figure based on, how do I know if this is a fair price, can they deliver what I want and on time, do they understand what I expect, what is it going to cost if I want to make changes, etc.

Here are some main points you need to cover and convey in the written proposal to your client.

1. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand my client's goals and the results they are after.
2. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the deadline my client excepts out of me and its importance.
3. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the quality my client is after.
4. I will demonstrate in writing that my client may make modifications and how those changes will be handled.
5. I will help my client understand the complexity and time this is going to take.
6. I will help my client understand the quality I can provide and/or with portfolio samples.
7. I will help my client understand this project is "worth the price" because of the above reasons.

Because I have learned how to convey a detailed understanding of a project, and "how to convey value" before presenting high prices to my potential client, is why I beat other proposals 99 percent of the time. You need to price the project based on time, the quality you can provide, and based on its value to your client. Always put yourself in the client's place and ask the questions they would ask, then turn around and answer those questions in your proposal and you will be a bazillion miles ahead of what most artists normally do.

Daniel
VFXM

[Octavian Ureche]

Very good points guys. I can totally relate to the "conveying value" principle.

I met a couple of very successful freelancers in my time, that charged what to me seemed like insane rates,

even for an average looking after effects job, just because they knew how to sell themselves and talk business lingo to clients. And they are still doing that, and still getting tons of gigs.

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

[Stephen Davidson]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Daniel. 

You also provide excellent information about the content of your quotes.

All excellent points, listed, in your post.

I did forget to mention something that a lot of artists omit in their quotes, although you touch on it as cost of making changes.

You also have to have some sort of statement that gives you the right to charge extra monies when content changes.

This is where your per hour rate is used to figure the added charge for content change.

Here is my disclaimer, stated at the end of each of my quotes:

This estimate is provided based upon the information available to me, at the time the estimate was created. Any changes to the script, requirements, length of animation or added/subtracted elements to the animation will add to, or subtract from, the total estimate dollar amount. This Estimate is valid for 60 days from the creation date. Every effort has been made, in this estimate, to be as accurate as possible. Unforeseen costs can apply wherever applicable.

[Eric Lampi]

In general, I have found the same to be true. Young CG artists are terrible at contracts negotiations and general understanding how to price their work. There have been several threads over at VFXSoldier.com that discuss, and while it's a blog that focuses mostly on the film industry, those issues have an effect on all of us. I often wonder why there isn't more education in art schools regarding the basics. While at Pratt, I had a conversation with someone on the administration that stated they "weren't training people for jobs", obviously there was a disconnect between the reality of why most people went to an art school in the first place and the idealized world where it's simply art for art's sake and if you make a living from it, that wasn't the point. I saw some mention about the tax burden these companies face. What they don't tell you is how many government subsidies they are taking advantage of. It's easy to get caught up in the explanations why you should take lower rate, in the back of your mind always think "It's not my problem" because ultimately, it really isn't unless you choose to make it so. I'm not saying you shouldn't negotiate, but you need to take care of yourself first, and it requires a little backbone sometimes to gently push back when you are faced with a situation where you're giving too much. Something else to consider, often you're negotiating rates with business people, and they will always try to get you as low as they can, especially if you're young and they think you're clueless. It's more of a game whereas many artists have a more emotional response. It's business, not personal. I've learned a lot since I started out and once I was solidly in the clueless category. You live and learn!

Eric

[Gerbrand Nel]

It's important to know what you are worth.
If you come in cheap, you'll get the cheap jobs, and people will not take you seriously.
It might be OK if you start cheap while you're still learning and getting up to standard, but its very hard to tell your old clients that you are better now, and deserve more of their cash.
It's allot easier to only go freelance after about 3 to 5 years
Another animator once told me:
���� ��� If you kiss someone on their ass, they won't want to kiss you on your lips.
This is crude but the most truth-full analogy I've heard in ages.
G

On 2012/11/19 06:26 PM, Eric Lampi wrote:

In general, I have found the same to be true. Young CG artists are terrible at contracts negotiations and general understanding how to price their work. There have been several threads over at VFXSoldier.com that discuss, and while it's a blog that focuses mostly on the film industry, those issues have an effect on all of us. I often wonder why there isn't more education in art schools regarding the basics. While at Pratt, I had a conversation with someone on the administration that stated they "weren't training people for jobs", obviously there was a disconnect between the reality of why most people went to an art school in the first place and the idealized world where it's simply art for art's sake and if you make a living from it, that wasn't the point. I saw some mention about the tax burden these companies face. What they don't tell you is how many government subsidies they are taking advantage of. It's easy to get caught up in the explanations why you should take lower rate, in the back of your mind always think "It's not my problem" because ultimately, it really isn't unless you choose to make it so. I'm not saying you shouldn't negotiate, but you need to take care of yourself first, and it requires a little backbone sometimes to gently push back when you are faced with a situation where you're giving too much. Something else to consider, often you're negotiating rates with business people, and they will always try to get you as low as they can, especially if you're young and they think you're clueless. It's more of a game whereas many artists have a more emotional response. It's business, not personal. I've learned a lot since I started out and once I was solidly in the clueless category. You live and learn!

Eric

On Nov 19, 2012 10:02 AM, "Daniel H" <vfx...@gmail.com> wrote:

In general, most artists are terrible practitioners of business and pricing. Obviously every model can vary greatly in detail and complexity. Stephen Davidson has it correct by evaluating time per component and then charging by an hourly rate to establish a starting base point.

You must also master "how to convey value" to your client. You can't just spit-out an overall price or a day rate, because this leaves questions unanswered. The client will ask themselves, why this rate, is this high or low in comparison to other artists, what all am I getting for this price, what is this figure based on, how do I know if this is a fair price, can they deliver what I want and on time, do they understand what I expect, what is it going to cost if I want to make changes, etc.

Here are some main points you need to cover and convey in the written proposal to your client.

1. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand my client's goals and the results they are after.
2. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the deadline my client excepts out of me and its importance.
3. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the quality my client is after.
4. I will demonstrate in writing that my client may make modifications and how those changes will be handled.
5. I will help my client understand the complexity and time this is going to take.
6. I will help my client understand the quality I can provide and/or with portfolio samples.
7. I will help my client understand this project is "worth the price" because of the above reasons.

Because I have learned how to convey a detailed understanding of a project, and "how to convey value" before presenting high prices to my potential client, is why I beat other proposals 99 percent of the time. You need to price the project based on time, the quality you can provide, and based on its value to your client. Always put yourself in the client's place and ask the questions they would ask, then turn around and answer those questions in your proposal and you will be a bazillion miles ahead of what most artists normally do.

Daniel
VFXM

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Byron Nash <byro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Over here in the US I see a lot of people working for in-house freelance rates from home on their own equipment. This seems unwise to me since hardware/software and other costs are not really taken into account. To me, there is a difference between going into a company and working with their clients on their equipment versus working at home on your own setup. I think these trends are creating a false sense of value to clients. In the long run "freelancers" cannot maintain this economy and the clientele will be accustomed to artificially low rates.�

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szab...@crytek.com> wrote:

Yep. I consider the 100 EURO / day as a it�s-just-1 cent-above-to-say-no rate�but I was told it�s way above the average, so it was funny. Especially knowing that how much the client charges for the models I made :D

�

�

�

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Octavian Ureche
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:34 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling

�

Yap, forgot about tax expenses (they changed the legislation here a couple of years ago, and now they

roam around 5% for small companies, so one tends to neglect that).�Other places have it much higher, from what it seems.

�

Also forgot to add a very important expense (bad eastern european habit...) that has a very strong influence on rate: software maintance/upgrade costs, and also leasing costs for specialised tools.

�

As a sidenote, i found out through the years, that sometimes it is better to incorporate than to work as a legal freelacer,�as taxes are usually lower this way (5% vs 20% here - insane, right?). But this one may really only apply to this part of the world.�Also as a freelancer suing someone is a lot harder (or at least threatening to sue - that one usually does the trick).�Plus, getting an accountant and starting to tackle the financial side of a business is a must, as it opens up a world of hurt, knowledge and possibilities which every artist should go through to survive in this industry.

�

Cheers,

Octav

�

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:10 PM, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr> wrote:

I think it's overall true every where.
On a side note, I'd add that in France when a company hire someone at 100 e/day (salary) it cost 200e/day to the company due to taxes. And on the 100e, the worker has to release back some money for his own taxes, of course.

On the over side, the freelance seems to cost more but you can join him on weekend and on holydays ;)

Le 19/11/2012 10:25, Octavian Ureche a �crit�:

This is interesting, and i think it mostly revolves around making certain things clear beforehand.

Notice that whenever you do the math based on what an employee's rate would be, you always come up

with ridiculously low sums of money from a freelance perspective.

At first glance, 100 eur/day to me feels like borderline insulting for a freelance rate.

But, if we do a little basic math, at that rate, an employee would get 2k / month, and that includes healthcare and vacation. Which for eastern european�standards, is a very good salary.

Now as a freelancer, jobs are usually scarce (except if u're on a roll, which i don't think happens that often).

So you need to plan your lifestyle accordingly. Backup plans and savings are crucial.�Also as a freelancer you have to add extra expenses to your rates,�like electricity, renderfarm costs (if u'r pulling heavy stuff that you can't possibly render at home), subcontracting costs (we all need a hand from time to time), rent for the apt you're living in, food, heating or cooling expenses etc. That adds a considerable amount of money to that rate. Something which does not apply to an employee which basically gets all this for free at the working place (apart from food maybe). The studio on the other hand adds these to it's hourly rate, which includes employee expenses.

So while in theory, 100 eur/day sounds like a good fulltime salary, for a freelancer, it would give a whole new meaning to life (survival training might be necessary here).

�

Keep in mind, everything i wrote, is based on eastern european experience, but i presume it's the same�

everywhere else. Numbers vary, but the theory stays the same.

�

Peace,

O

�

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szab...@crytek.com> wrote:

Wow, very nice information. However, there were times, when I was told I am fairly expensive with my 100Euros (without VAT) rate per day...And I'm in Eastern Europe as well, and the statement was made by a company in the UK.

Cheers


Szabolcs

-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of olivier jeannel
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling

Thank's Tim :)
Pretty precize :D

Le 17/11/2012 16:06, Tim Leydecker a �crit :
> Given you�re mail account, you�re based in France.
>
> That�s EU territory. 19% VAT.

>
> I guess remote work, home office. Your own equipment, hardware and
> software.
>
> Your own hours plus the above overhead.
>
>
> You guess it would take you 4-5 days to complete the task.
>
> Adding 3 revision steps to that means another 3 days of handling
>
> your milestones, e.g. communication and revision loops with your client.
>

> That�s 7-8 days for finishing a 3 D character model.
>
> That�s very fast and seems to not include the concept/art-direction

> bit too much.
>
> Especially when working with a fresh client who may only be able to
> judge
>
> finished, e.g. fully built, textured, shaded and lit renderings.
>
>
> I would suggest a small boutique shop price per day, which is at least
> around 750 EUR/day.
>

> Because that�s what you do, besides modeling.

>
> Coming from a graphics design backround, list prices I can relate to
> range in the 60 EUR/hr range but would not include additional fees for

> usage of artworks. These fees for, let�s say a worldwide, unlimited

> use of your character may easily be factor 10.
>
> For a reason.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17.11.2012 15:24, olivier jeannel wrote:
>> Ah thank's, that helps.
>> Well, the clients seems rather "new" in the 3d field. (nothing like
>> Lionsgate, or big studio) So I'm not sure how they'll react to the
>> range of price.
>> Thank's a lot for your examples :)
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> Le 17/11/2012 14:58, Octavian Ureche a �crit :

>>> I remember doing a commercial for a studio here (eastern europe),
>>> and we outsourced a horse model to a friend of mine who now happens
>>> to work at lionhead. Point was, it took him 3 days, i recall, to do
>>> it, and it cost 1000 euros.
>>> And that was 4 or 5 years ago, and it wasn't considered that
>>> expensive, and we're talking eastern europe here. Don't know if the
>>> prices have changed that much since then in the modelling area, but
>>> i thought it might be food for thought.
>>> But the guy had an impressive portfolio even back then.
>>> On the other hand, i had a friend who recently hired a ubisoft guy
>>> with a rather poor portfolio to model a toycar, and he did it for
>>> 400 in 4 days.
>>>
>>> Don't know if it matters whether it's cartoony or realistic, but i
>>> think your portfolio will also help dictate the amount of money that
>>> you can or can't charge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 3:02 PM, olivier jeannel
>>> <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>

>>> � � Ok Thank you !
>>> � � So, 400$ * 4 or 5 days for 1 character is not over-priced
>>> according to you ?
>>>
>>>
>>> � � Le 16/11/2012 22:47, Stephen Davidson a �crit :
>>>> � � I would then price it per day. 8 hour days.
>>>> � � I charge approx. $400/day (314.2924 euros)
>>>>
>>>> � � On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM, olivier jeannel
>>>> <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> � � � � I won't be able to be that precise, as I usualy don't count
>>>> in hours.
>>>> � � � � Thus I think for modelling a 1 character 4 or 5 days is a
>>>> maximum.
>>>>
>>>> � � � � But, really I'd like someone to give me a price example.
>>>> � � � � are you usually speaking in hundreds or thousands of euros

>>>> ? I don't really know...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> � � � � Le 16/11/2012 16:36, Stephen Davidson a �crit :
>>>>> � � � � I always estimate per hour.
>>>>> � � � � I have found that I can be quite accurate with an hourly
>>>>> estimate
>>>>> � � � � by breaking down the modeling to it's most basic components.
>>>>> � � � � For example, on a character model, how long to model each
>>>>> eye.
>>>>> � � � � How long to model basic body shape. How long to model hands,
>>>>> � � � � face, expressions (if needed), clothes... you get the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � Then, add up all the tasks, and you will have a fairly
>>>>> accurate estimate.
>>>>> � � � � It takes practice, as my early quotes were not so
>>>>> accurate. I have
>>>>> � � � � been working in 3D since before Softimage version 1 so I
>>>>> have gotten more
>>>>> � � � � accurate over the years.
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:59 AM, olivier jeannel
>>>>> <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � � � Hi guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � � � Now that I'm starting enjoying playing with Ice and

>>>>> particle stuff, clients are asking for ...modelling job ^^
>>>>>

>>>>> � � � � � � I realize I never charged separatly for this task

>>>>> alone. So my question is how much do you (freelance, homeworkers)
>>>>> charge for 1 character modeling ? (How much do

>>>>> � � � � � � you keep in your pocket in the end (forget the taxes))
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � � � Typicaly, quadrupede / Biped, realistic proportions

>>>>> anatomy but rather for toon / NPA / stylized rendering results.

>>>>> � � � � � � In short, only polygonal modeling, (no Zbrush, no
>>>>> hair)
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � � � How much do you cost :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � --
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � Best Regards,
>>>>> � � � � * �Stephen P. Davidson**
>>>>> � � � � **(954) 552-7956 <tel:%28954%29%20552-7956>
>>>>> � � � � * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com
>>>>> <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> � � � � <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> � � --
>>>>
>>>> � � Best Regards,
>>>> � � * �Stephen P. Davidson**
>>>> � � **(954) 552-7956
>>>> � � * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com
>>>> <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>>
>>>> � � <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>

>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> visual | stuff
>>> www.okto.ro <http://www.okto.ro>
>>
>

�

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

�

�

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5904 - Release Date: 11/18/12

[olivier jeannel]

"If you kiss someone on their ass, they won't want to kiss you on your lips.
This is crude but the most truth-full analogy I've heard in ages.
G "

Great use of the word "analogy" here ^^

Ok, I'm out >>>>





Le 19/11/2012 17:46, Gerbrand Nel a �crit�:

[Eric Lampi]

Other useful quotes include "You get what you pay for" and "No one appreciates anything they get for free".

How often have you heard "I'll give you more work at your regular rate in the future" and it actually happened? Just say no!

Eric

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Gerbrand Nel <g...@cannonballbunny.com> wrote:

It's important to know what you are worth.
If you come in cheap, you'll get the cheap jobs, and people will not take you seriously.
It might be OK if you start cheap while you're still learning and getting up to standard, but its very hard to tell your old clients that you are better now, and deserve more of their cash.
It's allot easier to only go freelance after about 3 to 5 years
Another animator once told me:

         If you kiss someone on their ass, they won't want to kiss you on your lips.
This is crude but the most truth-full analogy I've heard in ages.
G
On 2012/11/19 06:26 PM, Eric Lampi wrote:

In general, I have found the same to be true. Young CG artists are terrible at contracts negotiations and general understanding how to price their work. There have been several threads over at VFXSoldier.com that discuss, and while it's a blog that focuses mostly on the film industry, those issues have an effect on all of us. I often wonder why there isn't more education in art schools regarding the basics. While at Pratt, I had a conversation with someone on the administration that stated they "weren't training people for jobs", obviously there was a disconnect between the reality of why most people went to an art school in the first place and the idealized world where it's simply art for art's sake and if you make a living from it, that wasn't the point. I saw some mention about the tax burden these companies face. What they don't tell you is how many government subsidies they are taking advantage of. It's easy to get caught up in the explanations why you should take lower rate, in the back of your mind always think "It's not my problem" because ultimately, it really isn't unless you choose to make it so. I'm not saying you shouldn't negotiate, but you need to take care of yourself first, and it requires a little backbone sometimes to gently push back when you are faced with a situation where you're giving too much. Something else to consider, often you're negotiating rates with business people, and they will always try to get you as low as they can, especially if you're young and they think you're clueless. It's more of a game whereas many artists have a more emotional response. It's business, not personal. I've learned a lot since I started out and once I was solidly in the clueless category. You live and learn!

Eric

On Nov 19, 2012 10:02 AM, "Daniel H" <vfx...@gmail.com> wrote:

In general, most artists are terrible practitioners of business and pricing. Obviously every model can vary greatly in detail and complexity. Stephen Davidson has it correct by evaluating time per component and then charging by an hourly rate to establish a starting base point.

You must also master "how to convey value" to your client. You can't just spit-out an overall price or a day rate, because this leaves questions unanswered. The client will ask themselves, why this rate, is this high or low in comparison to other artists, what all am I getting for this price, what is this figure based on, how do I know if this is a fair price, can they deliver what I want and on time, do they understand what I expect, what is it going to cost if I want to make changes, etc.

Here are some main points you need to cover and convey in the written proposal to your client.

1. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand my client's goals and the results they are after.
2. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the deadline my client excepts out of me and its importance.
3. I will demonstrate in writing that I understand the quality my client is after.
4. I will demonstrate in writing that my client may make modifications and how those changes will be handled.
5. I will help my client understand the complexity and time this is going to take.
6. I will help my client understand the quality I can provide and/or with portfolio samples.
7. I will help my client understand this project is "worth the price" because of the above reasons.

Because I have learned how to convey a detailed understanding of a project, and "how to convey value" before presenting high prices to my potential client, is why I beat other proposals 99 percent of the time. You need to price the project based on time, the quality you can provide, and based on its value to your client. Always put yourself in the client's place and ask the questions they would ask, then turn around and answer those questions in your proposal and you will be a bazillion miles ahead of what most artists normally do.

Daniel
VFXM

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Byron Nash <byro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Over here in the US I see a lot of people working for in-house freelance rates from home on their own equipment. This seems unwise to me since hardware/software and other costs are not really taken into account. To me, there is a difference between going into a company and working with their clients on their equipment versus working at home on your own setup. I think these trends are creating a false sense of value to clients. In the long run "freelancers" cannot maintain this economy and the clientele will be accustomed to artificially low rates. 

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szab...@crytek.com> wrote:

Yep. I consider the 100 EURO / day as a it’s-just-1 cent-above-to-say-no rate…but I was told it’s way above the average, so it was funny. Especially knowing that how much the client charges for the models I made :D

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Octavian Ureche
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:34 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling

 

Yap, forgot about tax expenses (they changed the legislation here a couple of years ago, and now they

roam around 5% for small companies, so one tends to neglect that). Other places have it much higher, from what it seems.

 

Also forgot to add a very important expense (bad eastern european habit...) that has a very strong influence on rate: software maintance/upgrade costs, and also leasing costs for specialised tools.

 

As a sidenote, i found out through the years, that sometimes it is better to incorporate than to work as a legal freelacer, as taxes are usually lower this way (5% vs 20% here - insane, right?). But this one may really only apply to this part of the world. Also as a freelancer suing someone is a lot harder (or at least threatening to sue - that one usually does the trick). Plus, getting an accountant and starting to tackle the financial side of a business is a must, as it opens up a world of hurt, knowledge and possibilities which every artist should go through to survive in this industry.

 

Cheers,

Octav

 

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:10 PM, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr> wrote:

I think it's overall true every where.
On a side note, I'd add that in France when a company hire someone at 100 e/day (salary) it cost 200e/day to the company due to taxes. And on the 100e, the worker has to release back some money for his own taxes, of course.

On the over side, the freelance seems to cost more but you can join him on weekend and on holydays ;)




Le 19/11/2012 10:25, Octavian Ureche a écrit :

This is interesting, and i think it mostly revolves around making certain things clear beforehand.

Notice that whenever you do the math based on what an employee's rate would be, you always come up

with ridiculously low sums of money from a freelance perspective.

At first glance, 100 eur/day to me feels like borderline insulting for a freelance rate.

But, if we do a little basic math, at that rate, an employee would get 2k / month, and that includes healthcare and vacation. Which for eastern european standards, is a very good salary.

Now as a freelancer, jobs are usually scarce (except if u're on a roll, which i don't think happens that often).

So you need to plan your lifestyle accordingly. Backup plans and savings are crucial. Also as a freelancer you have to add extra expenses to your rates, like electricity, renderfarm costs (if u'r pulling heavy stuff that you can't possibly render at home), subcontracting costs (we all need a hand from time to time), rent for the apt you're living in, food, heating or cooling expenses etc. That adds a considerable amount of money to that rate. Something which does not apply to an employee which basically gets all this for free at the working place (apart from food maybe). The studio on the other hand adds these to it's hourly rate, which includes employee expenses.

So while in theory, 100 eur/day sounds like a good fulltime salary, for a freelancer, it would give a whole new meaning to life (survival training might be necessary here).

 

Keep in mind, everything i wrote, is based on eastern european experience, but i presume it's the same 

everywhere else. Numbers vary, but the theory stays the same.

 

Peace,

O

 

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szab...@crytek.com> wrote:

Wow, very nice information. However, there were times, when I was told I am fairly expensive with my 100Euros (without VAT) rate per day...And I'm in Eastern Europe as well, and the statement was made by a company in the UK.

Cheers


Szabolcs

-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of olivier jeannel
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling

Thank's Tim :)
Pretty precize :D

Le 17/11/2012 16:06, Tim Leydecker a écrit :
> Given you´re mail account, you´re based in France.
>

> That´s EU territory. 19% VAT.

>
> I guess remote work, home office. Your own equipment, hardware and
> software.
>
> Your own hours plus the above overhead.
>
>
> You guess it would take you 4-5 days to complete the task.
>
> Adding 3 revision steps to that means another 3 days of handling
>
> your milestones, e.g. communication and revision loops with your client.
>

> That´s 7-8 days for finishing a 3 D character model.
>
> That´s very fast and seems to not include the concept/art-direction

> bit too much.
>
> Especially when working with a fresh client who may only be able to
> judge
>
> finished, e.g. fully built, textured, shaded and lit renderings.
>
>
> I would suggest a small boutique shop price per day, which is at least
> around 750 EUR/day.
>

> Because that´s what you do, besides modeling.

>
> Coming from a graphics design backround, list prices I can relate to
> range in the 60 EUR/hr range but would not include additional fees for

> usage of artworks. These fees for, let´s say a worldwide, unlimited

>>>     Ok Thank you !

>>>     So, 400$ * 4 or 5 days for 1 character is not over-priced
>>> according to you ?
>>>
>>>
>>>     Le 16/11/2012 22:47, Stephen Davidson a écrit :
>>>>     I would then price it per day. 8 hour days.

>>>>     I charge approx. $400/day (314.2924 euros)
>>>>

>>>>     On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM, olivier jeannel
>>>> <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         I won't be able to be that precise, as I usualy don't count
>>>> in hours.

>>>>         Thus I think for modelling a 1 character 4 or 5 days is a
>>>> maximum.
>>>>

>>>>         But, really I'd like someone to give me a price example.

>>>>         are you usually speaking in hundreds or thousands of euros
>>>> ? I don't really know...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         Le 16/11/2012 16:36, Stephen Davidson a écrit :
>>>>>         I always estimate per hour.

>>>>>         I have found that I can be quite accurate with an hourly
>>>>> estimate

>>>>>         by breaking down the modeling to it's most basic components.

>>>>>         For example, on a character model, how long to model each
>>>>> eye.

>>>>>         How long to model basic body shape. How long to model hands,

>>>>>         face, expressions (if needed), clothes... you get the idea.
>>>>>

>>>>>         Then, add up all the tasks, and you will have a fairly
>>>>> accurate estimate.

>>>>>         It takes practice, as my early quotes were not so
>>>>> accurate. I have

>>>>>         been working in 3D since before Softimage version 1 so I
>>>>> have gotten more

>>>>>         accurate over the years.

>>>>>
>>>>>         On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:59 AM, olivier jeannel
>>>>> <olivier...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier...@noos.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>             Hi guys,

>>>>>
>>>>>             Now that I'm starting enjoying playing with Ice and
>>>>> particle stuff, clients are asking for ...modelling job ^^
>>>>>

>>>>>             I realize I never charged separatly for this task
>>>>> alone. So my question is how much do you (freelance, homeworkers)
>>>>> charge for 1 character modeling ? (How much do

>>>>>             you keep in your pocket in the end (forget the taxes))
>>>>>

>>>>>             Typicaly, quadrupede / Biped, realistic proportions
>>>>> anatomy but rather for toon / NPA / stylized rendering results.

>>>>>             In short, only polygonal modeling, (no Zbrush, no
>>>>> hair)
>>>>>

>>>>>             How much do you cost :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>         --
>>>>>
>>>>>         Best Regards,
>>>>>         *  Stephen P. Davidson**
>>>>>         **(954) 552-7956 <tel:%28954%29%20552-7956>
>>>>>         * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com
>>>>> <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>         <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>
>>>>     Best Regards,
>>>>     *  Stephen P. Davidson**
>>>>     **(954) 552-7956
>>>>     * sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com
>>>> <mailto:sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com>
>>>>

>>>>     <http://www.3danimationmagic.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> visual | stuff
>>> www.okto.ro <http://www.okto.ro>
>>
>

 

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

 

 

--

visual | stuff

www.okto.ro

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--
Freelance 3D and VFX animator

http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work

[Byron Nash]

Great OT thread topic that everyone should be thinking of. 

@Eric Lampi, I was impressed recently when hiring a freelance illustrator from Savannah College of Art and Design. She came with very detailed contracts and pricing that was very professional. Since she is currently in the MFA program I assume that SCAD is teaching some of that now. The experience made me realize how crappy my quotes and terms were. They will be revised and more structured from here on out! I sure didn't get anything like that in my studies.

[Adam Sale]

On my quotes, I usually include 2 revision stages. Anything more than that.. Charge Em. 

I started my business charging pretty low rates in Cdn. 

I generally work hourly, though with larger projects, I break it down line item by item. 

I generally find my quotes are more accurate this way ( line item ) and give me more take home pay at the end of the gig. 

I also, ALWAYS ask for  a retainer up front, just for those times where I've wound up with zilch from a client. 

On small projects, I ask for 50 up front and rest on delivery. 

For larger projects, I ask for 10 - 15 % up front to cover any purchases, software or hardware.. with a second payout at the half way point of the project taking me to 50 %, and the balance on delivery. 

Adam

[Schoenberger]

>also, i believe a .tx format is actually a tif or exr format underneath. the extension is really just to say to the user

>this has been processed by the maketx utility.

Just try to add a .tif to the file and you know :-)

Or you can open the file in a text editor and see that the file starts with the tif magic id  II.

 

 

> unfortunately many apps have not implemented the full API of Tiff and support multiple channels.

I do not like .TIFF from the developer view. They made a file format which can do a lot.

You could add anything, not only images. But digging into the format itself is complex.

Not like .IFF, which can also do everything (even maya scene files are actually the .IFF format).

MAC and PC save the format differently, RGB + CMYK + YCbCr + CIE Lab, 5 different compressions (lzw required a paid license), prefilters..

TIFF has pages (I think the official paper has about 100 pages) for its specification, IFF only 1-2 pages.

Therefore I can understand if not all features are implemented by every app.

 

.exr is a complete different story.

It just works because you have a complete loader/writer because it is open source or you can download a compiled .dll.

You can not make any mistake.

Beside one, you can forget to implement the cropped region on load.

(Like Adobe!! Anyone would like to join to report it that they increase the priority for that bug?)

 

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron

Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:21 AM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: 16 bit tif from photoshop not working in softimage?

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Schoenberger <X...@digidragon.de> wrote:
> Not like .IFF, which can also do everything (even maya scene files are
> actually the .IFF format).
> MAC and PC save the format differently, RGB + CMYK + YCbCr + CIE Lab, 5
> different compressions (lzw required a paid license), prefilters..
> TIFF has pages (I think the official paper has about 100 pages) for its
> specification, IFF only 1-2 pages.
> Therefore I can understand if not all features are implemented by every app.
>
> .exr is a complete different story.
> It just works because you have a complete loader/writer because it is open
> source or you can download a compiled .dll.
> You can not make any mistake.

TIFF and OpenEXR are the same story, actually. Every application is
using the open source implementation of TIFF, libtiff
http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/ Nobody is reading the spec and
trying to implement that.

For OpenEXR, many applications are using the simplified "RGBA"
interface, or need channels called "R", "G"..
in either case if you have different channels, nothing will load.
Also, there are various versions of the OpenEXR library in the wild
and you may not be able to load newer files. (Tiff is much older and
therefore the library has changed less often)

A user that's producing CYMK or CIE textures and baffled at TIFF is
probably not smart enough to understand OpenEXR better and will run
into problem with that as well. At one point, I think you have
understand your craft and tools.

Tiff does the right thing, it's adobe's portable, multi channel image
format that saves all the bits you can produce in Photoshop except for
layer information. An app that needs RGB input shouldn't be trying to
emulate a printer to get CMYK color it got right, the user deserves
that to fail.

Mental Image dropped support for LZW compression because there was a
dispute for a patent, which expired in 2003.
There is no license to pay to use it since then. Mental Ray added
support for it back in version 3.10

Softimage should have made a TIFF file parser replacement for mental
ray to save us all from all these support issues for the last 12
years. It's another case of misplaced priorities in rendering IMHO.
What I did on my side of the app was log a warning to tell the user
that the image clip uses a compression not supported by mental ray.

[Daniel H]

You will not start a project until you have a starting payment. Your starting payment won't be the same % for every project. Asking 50% as a starting fee for smaller projects is an expected standard. On larger projects you will use 33%. By using 1/3 you will have 66% at the midpoint instead of 50% at the midpoint, which puts you in a better financial position. Asking only 10-15% up front is way too generous. You always propose your standard policies toward your client and then if they want to negotiate on the starting payment you've already given yourself room to go down to 25% if you have to. Without looking at the books, I don't think I've ever had to negotiate down from a 1/3 starting.

The A-typical artist is "addicted" to the creative process and/or creative glory of an imagined opportunity and therefore becomes too desperate to work on a project of personal interest. IF you want to be a successful business person then you need to learn how to "switch off" that creative lust that's trying to give the client an extra-good deal just because you are emotionally attached to the project. You can think of it this way, the color palette you use in your creative projects is a whole spectrum of colors, but the color palette you use in business is just black, white, and sometimes gray.

Daniel
VFXM