New horizons for xblite (just an idea...)

[robolinus]

Hi all,
navigating on the net looking for open source projects, I noticed an
important (in my opinion) niche that - as far as I know - hasn't yet
been covered by nobody and that could be well suited for xblite.

I mean an open source application centered around a wysiwyg IDE (a la
Lazarus) producing true, compiled Windows code.

The closer compiler rivals don't match this profile, because:
- Lazarus: is cross-platform and Windows independent;
- K-Basic: is not open source

If you like, I'd like to discuss with you about:

- why on the earth could my niche be a need for anybody, and
- supposing my niche a real thing, what should this community do to
match the needed features?

Waiting to read your patient replicas,

rob

[Guy1954]

Hi rob,

I know at least of "Easy Code" for GoAsm http://www.easycode.cat/ that
seems to be such a WinApi GUI designer (Greg "Bushpilot" Heller, our
GoAsm specialist, could certainly expand on this).

If really there is a niche, I could work on a VIXEN that you generate
generic WinApi GUI apps (a ViApiEn, so to speak!). Why don't you post
here some kind of specs and feature list? I (and hopefully some
others) would study it and give you a feedback.

Bye! Guy

[robolinus]

My first contribute to the eventual discussion: a clarification about
what I call a niche of opportunity.

Title: the compiler that Windows never had

In the eighties of previous century (sigh...) it had a conspicuous
success an initiative around the Amiga & Atari enthusiasts, called
"the Fish Disks". It was a collection of software projects of any
nature and quality level produced by the community (as you can notice,
I was already on the net at that time...).
While the most part (in number) of these applications were in the
interpreted Basic of those machine, a good portion of the upper
quality projects was realized with a free Modula-2 compiler.

The reasons for this success were due to the features of the compiler:
- open-source like (in that period the open source culture was just
starting)
- produced compact, performing, high quality executable native code
- modular, so easily extensible: its community produced a lot of
library modules to face every kind of problem
- easy access to the native libraries through a middle level Modula-2
module family (like WinX for xblite)
- its modular nature allowed shared projects
- easier to program than native customized C language, however
allowing serious system programming.

Windows never had such a tool, because:
- the evolution of QuickBasic in the Windows world was stopped,
- Visual Basic 5 & 6 weren't true native compilers and - in any case -
weren't free
- the C compiler distributed with Windows SDK and the Borland C++ had
no supporting IDE or native graphic library (glut is not native)

Today I think that all these needs are still in place, and - as in the
past - quite unsatisfied.
Furthermore, I perceive new demands, like e.g.:
- procedural language, pls
- open source software on windows
- no more PIK-A-POKE constructs
- no more tutorials starting from Ada Lovelace & the Babbage Machine
to arrive in the penultimate chapter to: "What is computer
programming?"

I hope this won't hurt you...

rob

[robolinus]

On Aug 10, 12:55 pm, Guy1954 <guy.lo...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Hi rob,
>
> I know at least of "Easy Code" for GoAsmhttp://www.easycode.cat/that
> seems to be such a WinApi GUI designer (Greg "Bushpilot" Heller, our
> GoAsm specialist, could certainly expand on this).

Interesting, but for the moment WinX seems to be perfect for me

>
> If really there is a niche, I could work on a VIXEN that you generate
> generic WinApi GUI apps (a ViApiEn, so to speak!). Why don't you post
> here some kind of specs and feature list? I (and hopefully some
> others) would study it and give you a feedback.

Yeah, I think VIXEN is in pole position to became the right
development tool.
I'd like to participate to its development, but for the moment I'm
still studying xblite and WinX. Anyway, just as a font of inspiration,
try a look to FarPy: http://farpy.holev.com/ that,
apart from being devoted to wxwidget, distributes an interesting
source code.

Bye
rob

[Guy1954]

Hi rob,

I had a look at FarPy: http://farpy.holev.com/
I downloaded the latest executable and I will see what it does.
Thanks for the info.

Guy

[robolinus]

Another flash impression:

while it seems that no (open source) visual design tool still exists
for the Windows API, I visited three others sites proposing some
solution in the cross-platform wysiwyg GUI development: WX widget, Qt
and GTK+.

Qt is the closer implementation of a visual tool suitable for xblite,
but it's written in C++ and it'is not clear - at a first glance - if
and how a wrapper could be written for xblite. Furthermore, Qt seems
to produce large quantities of code. As for portability: Qt is capable
to use the Windows API.

GTK+ offers only a portable GUI library, but it is written in C and
should be easily converted to xblite, but the question is: is it
worth? Xblite doesn't need for portability

WX widget is the most interesting tool of the list, because offers a
quantity of visual development tools a la VIXEN that could be
interfaced through a simple wrapper to xblite. The only problem is
that its architecture is not well suited for us (portability through
architecture complexity, not needed for GUI development under
Windows).

So, at the moment it seems we don't have alternatives than continuing
on the usual way - KISS

cheers - ciao
rob

(in this very moment, a song is playing far from here: Georgia on my
mind...)

[lzdude69]

Hi,

I think GTK is really the only way to go (not only because it can
already be used with Xblite). Qt and wxWidgets are heavily OOP based,
and writing a wrapper to encapsulate everything would be exceedingly
difficult. I've used wxWidgets in the past, and I know writing a
wrapper for it would be insane. I have to admit Qt looks the best, and
would probably be my first candidate for a wrapper. Bu GTK+ looks
pretty good, and it already(mostly) works with Xblite.

Did liviu(I think) write the declaration file for libglade? If so then
we could just use Glade, which would make Guy and my efforts a
waste:P!

Later

[Guy1954]

Hi Rhett,

You are right that GLADE exists to produce GTK+ skeletons; however, I
am still toying with the idea to add GTK+ generation to VIXEN. Why?

1. because VIXEN already generate native Win32 API's and WinX's GUI
skeletons so it would be a matter to add another code generator, which
was envisionned by Prujohn from the start
2. GTK+ would bring back xblite in the Linux (*NIX) realm, and I value
a lot xblite's cross-development capability
3. VIXEN's learning curve at GUI design would not be lost when GTK+
would be used
4. with the same project, VIXEN would generate GUI skeletons for 3 GUI
libraries; if there is a need, I could work on reverse-enginiering a
VIXEN-complient GUI application to re-generate it for the other 2 GUI
libraries. This is why I am trying to "merge" VIXEN and XblDesigner
re. the XML-encoded projects.

Bye! Guy

[lzdude69]

Hi,

Glade doesn't necessarily generate a "skeleton", as in Vixen
nomenclature. It generates an XML file, conforming to a defined
schema, and then that file is imported using libglade which creates
the widgets in GTK. This is EXACTLY what I am trying to accomplish
with xtk and XbliteDesigner. In this sense, the libglade part(ahem
xtk) is finished and working. I am just finishing up the designer at
this point(Glade).

Also exporting a GladeXML document from Vixen would probably not work,
as Win32 controls aren't anything like GTK controls.

Later.

[Guy1954]

Hi Rhett,

OK! Now I understand why VIXEN does not play in the same playground as
GLADE. Actually, VIXEN building such GTK skeletons seems like a good
idea, isn't it?

Guy

[lzdude69]

Hi,

Dude, it seems like an awesome idea, but it would never work well.
GTK and Win32 controls don't correspond at all. You would have to
implement GTK controls in Vixen as well for it to make sense in a
WYSIWYG tool. Likewise, XbliteDesigner would never be able to export
GladeXML files simply because it uses Win32. Glade is for GTK, Vixen/
XbliteDesigner is for Win32. If you can come up with a solution, then
that is freaking amazing and I would want to shake your hand:)

Later.

[Guy1954]

Hi Rhett,

Even if I don't succeed, I will learn something by trying. It's enough
for me. But, if I find a way, welcome "Xb-lighted GTK"! Actually, it
would close the gap between XBasic and xblite...

Bye! Guy

[lzdude69]

Hi,

> Even if I don't succeed, I will learn something by trying. It's enough
> for me. But, if I find a way, welcome "Xb-lighted GTK"! Actually, it
> would close the gap between XBasic and xblite...

Well I'm all for this insanely ambitious venture! Dude, let me know if
you need help.

Later.