Wx on WRT

[Johan Vromans]

Short, possibly over-simplified question: will it be possible to deploy
Wx programs on Windows RT?

-- Johan

[Eric Jensen]

Hello Johan,

Sunday, October 21, 2012, 6:08:49 PM, you wrote:

JV> Short, possibly over-simplified question: will it be possible to deploy
JV> Wx programs on Windows RT?

Probably not as wxWidgets uses the Win32 API.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT :
---
Only software written using the Windows Runtime (Metro style apps) can
be used on Windows RT with the exception of Microsoft Office 2013 and
the desktop version of Internet Explorer 10. Developers will not be
able to create applications to run on Windows RT using the Win32
APIs.
---

Eric

[Vadim Zeitlin]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:08:49 +0200 Johan Vromans wrote:

JV> Short, possibly over-simplified question: will it be possible to deploy
JV> Wx programs on Windows RT?

Not until someone writes wxMSW/RT port. The good news is that it should,
in principle, be possible as RT does have a C++ API (WRT) and it even can
be used without compiler-specific extensions (although it's much simpler to
use with them). The bad news is that somebody still has to do it and AFAIK
nobody started doing it yet.

Regards,
VZ

--
TT-Solutions: wxWidgets consultancy and technical support
http://www.tt-solutions.com/

[Johan Vromans]

Vadim Zeitlin <va...@wxwidgets.org> writes:

> Not until someone writes wxMSW/RT port. The good news is that it should,
> in principle, be possible as RT does have a C++ API (WRT) and it even can
> be used without compiler-specific extensions (although it's much simpler to
> use with them). The bad news is that somebody still has to do it and AFAIK
> nobody started doing it yet.

That is real bad news.

The desktop is currently being overtaken by Android tablets, Windows
tablets, iPads, iPhones, and so on. None of these will be able to run Wx
applications.

What do you consider the future for Wx?

-- Johan

[Vadim Zeitlin]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:46:37 +0200 Johan Vromans wrote:

JV> Vadim Zeitlin <va...@wxwidgets.org> writes:
JV>
JV> > Not until someone writes wxMSW/RT port. The good news is that it should,
JV> > in principle, be possible as RT does have a C++ API (WRT) and it even can
JV> > be used without compiler-specific extensions (although it's much simpler to
JV> > use with them). The bad news is that somebody still has to do it and AFAIK
JV> > nobody started doing it yet.
JV>
JV> That is real bad news.
JV>
JV> The desktop is currently being overtaken by Android tablets, Windows
JV> tablets, iPads, iPhones, and so on. None of these will be able to run Wx
JV> applications.
JV>
JV> What do you consider the future for Wx?

First of all, I think the desktop will stay here for the observable
future and wx will keep working on it. Second, it would be definitely great
to have wxiOS (partially existing and definitely the simplest to write),
wxAndroid (much talked about but rather difficult to do) and wxWinRT
(intermediate in terms of complexity) ports but we don't have any
possibility to do either of them now as they would require many
person-months of work and we simply don't have enough resources.

So unless someone decides to work on any of these ports or donate to fund
their development it seems likely that wx will remain limited to the
traditional desktop systems. But this is not as much a bad news as absence
of good news. And, again, I don't think the desktop GUIs are going to just
disappear any time soon. However if you need to target tablets or phones,
then wx is not the right choice -- HTML5 + JS is AFAIK the only portable
solution in this case.

[Julian Smart]

My own view is that on Linux, GTK+ isn't going away, and neither is
Cocoa on Mac OS X. On Windows, the jury is very much out on RT and the
business world (and much of the consumer world) may simply carry on
targeting and using the Windows desktop. For serious, complex
applications, it's not at all clear that RT is a viable solution. It's
perfectly possible to use Windows 8 and rarely see the Metro/Windows
8/Modern UI start screen or whatever the nom de jour is (Classic Shell
is going to get a lot downloads).

The fragmentation on mobile devices is regrettable but the desktop is
not going to vanish in a puff of smoke just because there are more toys
for people to play with. wxWidgets is a reassuring constant for
developing large, fast, complex, solid applications when everything else
is constantly changing and in doubt. Mobile stuff is great but let's not
give it too much credit - there's a certain amount of faddishness here
and we're a long way from the scenario of people doing serious, all-day
work on tablets. Yes, people will jump in and say how much they enjoy
tapping articles out on their iPad but for the majority of creative and
business types, this is just not a productive way to work.

Julian

>


--
Julian Smart, Anthemion Software Ltd.
www.anthemion.co.uk | +44 (0)131 229 5306
Tools for writers: www.writerscafe.co.uk
Ebook creation: www.jutoh.com
wxWidgets RAD: www.dialogblocks.com

[Stefano Mtangoo (evstevemd)]

Mobile things are great but come on buddies how is it replacement of
Desktop?
I see mobile as supplement/complement to desktop than replacement!

> Julian
>
>
>
> --
> Julian Smart, Anthemion Software Ltd.www.anthemion.co.uk| +44 (0)131 229 5306

[Johan Vromans]

Julian Smart <jul...@anthemion.co.uk> writes:

> The fragmentation on mobile devices is regrettable but the desktop is
> not going to vanish in a puff of smoke just because there are more
> toys for people to play with.

No doubt. For now.

> [...] and we're a long way from the scenario of people doing serious,

> all-day work on tablets. Yes, people will jump in and say how much
> they enjoy tapping articles out on their iPad but for the majority of
> creative and business types, this is just not a productive way to
> work.

Fully agreed. For now. But tablets are more and more equipped with
keyboards (Asus Transformer, etc.) so the distinction between a
consumer-only device and a consumer/producer (general purpose) device
will become less. There are scenario's of mini-iPad or iPhone like
devices that can be put in an arbitrary dock to become a full fledged
general purpose PC.

> wxWidgets is a reassuring constant for developing large, fast,
> complex, solid applications when everything else is constantly
> changing and in doubt.

This is the point I have my doubts about. Oh, the statement itself is
true. But consider the often occurring situation where you are going to
developing a new 'large, fast, complex, solid application'. Would it be
wise to choose and environment that is very unlikely to be supported on
a fast growing range of computing devices that may become an interesting
platform for your application?

The problem is how to sell the use of Wx in this fast changing world.

Also, I have several Wx applications that are designed to be run on
touchscreen devices. Currently they require a customized and very
expensive Windows 'touch' system but modern tablets are the perfect
target for these applications. Except for Wx...

-- Johan

[Johan Vromans]

"Stefano Mtangoo (evstevemd)" <mwinj...@gmail.com> writes:

> Mobile things are great but come on buddies how is it replacement of
> Desktop?
> I see mobile as supplement/complement to desktop than replacement!

Exactly. And several applications will be very interesting to have on
this platform, possibly in a 'light' version. But without Wx this will
mean that the 'light' version has to be developed from scratch, with
different technology, instead of being able to reuse major parts of the
original application.

-- Johan

[John Roberts]

On 22/10/2012 4:19 PM, Johan Vromans wrote:
> Julian Smart <jul...@anthemion.co.uk> writes:
>
>> The fragmentation on mobile devices is regrettable but the desktop is
>> not going to vanish in a puff of smoke just because there are more
>> toys for people to play with.
>

>> wxWidgets is a reassuring constant for developing large, fast,
>> complex, solid applications when everything else is constantly
>> changing and in doubt.
>
> This is the point I have my doubts about. Oh, the statement itself is
> true. But consider the often occurring situation where you are going to
> developing a new 'large, fast, complex, solid application'. Would it be
> wise to choose and environment that is very unlikely to be supported on
> a fast growing range of computing devices that may become an interesting
> platform for your application?
>
> The problem is how to sell the use of Wx in this fast changing world.
>
> Also, I have several Wx applications that are designed to be run on
> touchscreen devices. Currently they require a customized and very
> expensive Windows 'touch' system but modern tablets are the perfect
> target for these applications. Except for Wx...
>
> -- Johan

My 2 cents worth.
It is not just new 'large, fast, complex, solid application'(s) that are
going to be needed.

These days users may want an office desktop program and data server and
a mobile program that will interface with the desktop program's data.
Many service industries use mobile devices to check appointments, place
orders (not just restaurants) and process client transactions.

I expect re-using wx code from the desktop program for its satellite
devices will become more important.

Just need some people with enough time and skill to write the port...

Regards, John

[Vadim Zeitlin]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:51:35 +0800 John Roberts wrote:

JR> Just need some people with enough time and skill to write the port...

Again, the good news is that it's definitely possible. Unlike iOS (with
its uncertain legal constraints) or Android (Java-based and native code
unfriendly), WinRT does support C++ just fine and we could use either
MSVC-specific C++/CX extensions (simpler but not portable) or WRL directly
(portable but more complicated) to port wx to it. We also could use
Direct2D so we should be able to provide an efficient wxGraphicsContext
implementation for WinRT -- and creating wxDirect2DGraphicsContext would be
very useful for desktop applications too, so it could be a good first step.

Of course, it won't be trivial by any stretch but I think that if enough
wxWidgets users want it (as in "want it enough to work on/fund it"),
wxWinRT port will happen, sooner or later.

[Gadget/Steve]

On 21/10/2012 11:00 PM, Vadim Zeitlin wrote:
> <Snip>

>
> So unless someone decides to work on any of these ports or donate to fund
> their development it seems likely that wx will remain limited to the
> traditional desktop systems. But this is not as much a bad news as absence
> of good news. And, again, I don't think the desktop GUIs are going to just
> disappear any time soon. However if you need to target tablets or phones,
> then wx is not the right choice -- HTML5 + JS is AFAIK the only portable
> solution in this case.
>
> Regards,
> VZ
>

Euro-python had some nice information on developing for Android in Python.

[Eric Jensen]

Hello Vadim,

Monday, October 22, 2012, 12:00:26 AM, you wrote:
VZ> wxAndroid (much talked about but rather difficult to do) and wxWinRT
VZ> (intermediate in terms of complexity) ports but we don't have any
VZ> possibility to do either of them now as they would require many
VZ> person-months of work and we simply don't have enough resources.

What happened to that wxWidgets for Android campaign?

I found this article that shows how to create native controls and
receive events from them using C++. Might be interesting.
http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/396538/Writing-android-gui-using-cplusplus-introduction

Eric

[Vadim Zeitlin]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 13:28:43 +0200 Eric Jensen wrote:

EJ> What happened to that wxWidgets for Android campaign?

As you can see (http://www.cofundos.org/project.php?id=115601), it got
spammed to death but otherwise nothing much unfortunately.

EJ> I found this article that shows how to create native controls and
EJ> receive events from them using C++. Might be interesting.
EJ> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/396538/Writing-android-gui-using-cplusplus-introduction

Could be, thanks, I've added this to http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/WxAndroid
Clearly the problem of using Android Java API from other language is not
important only to us and hopefully it will be (if it isn't yet) solved.
However there are more of them... In particular, Android activities are
very different from the normal C++/wx applications and I don't really know
what to do about this. From this point of view, WRT (or iOS for that
matter) are much less unusual.