should fair and lovely be banned?

[dop...@gmail.com]

do i have to get into the reasons why something so subversive and
repulsive ought not to be allowed to enter anyone's mind? doesn't the
brand do great damage to something that is intrinsic to the indian
psyche? isn't it, yet another, tool with which the white's are trying
to control our markets, and minds? how can fair and lovely be good for
india? how can we allow a brand that promotes racism of this kind?
yeah, too many things are eating me. the point is, why aren't these
very things eating the rest of us? down with fair and lovely! it's just
unlovely what the brand does to our minds. and fair and lovely is the
reason ash is such a star around the world, perhaps our biggest global
star. it's got less to do with her talent, if any, and more to do with
her aryan looks. do we have it in us to ban fair and lovely? yawn...

[ashish magotra]

did you know...

In south India more men buy fair and lovey than women!

[Avinash Subramaniam]

yes, i did. fortunately, i'm proud as hell of my
colour to not count myself among these 'things' that
try to pass of as men. more importantly, did you know
fair and lovely is a tool for world domination
employed by the whites to weaken the minds of the
darker skinned? i didn't but i suspect it is.



__________________________________
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[Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan]

>>>> i didn't but i suspect it is.>>> Woohoo!
Funny.

--
http://www.selectiveamnesia.org

+91-9884087890

[dop...@gmail.com]

if only we had a dark and lovely girl in our midst to give her two-bits
on what she thinks of the 'fair and lovely' tamasha? knowing how racist
we are, it can't be much fun being a dark girl of marriageable age in
indian society. or for that matter, a dark man of marriageable age in
chennai.

[Divya Manian]

has this group been created to needle me or wat. I can vouch for the
dark factor but not the lovely one.

So well, I dont use fair and lovely. I think it sucks. I like to have
a blemishless skin and not a fair one. But if I had a choice I would
rather be born a caucasian. I do. There is no denying it. Its racist.
But there it is. I guess right from childhood we have been brought up
to think having "chubby cheeks, dimple chin, rosy lips, da da da...
eyes blue and lovely too" and all the rest does affect how we would
like to be.


divya

[Saurabh Mehta]

Thank God!
I am fair enough!
~SM

--
~Saurabh
smsaura...@gmail.com
mehta...@gmail.com

[ashish magotra]

you are fair but are you really fair?

[Saurabh Mehta]

They say it's tragic, but is it really THAT tragic!?
~SM

--
~Saurabh
smsaura...@gmail.com
mehta...@gmail.com

[Wordsmith]

avinash is using this forum to do straw polls (dipstick
studies...ain't it?) for his marketing lectures. unfair. and delovely.

[Divya Manian]

wait a min wait a min... u mean to say the Resident MCP is a
professori! [Ed. : Divya falls down her chair from shock and
disbelief] =D

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

fair and lovely........i am not sure if the argument really stretches
to aryan genes, but yes, i do agree it has an interesting effect on
the collective psyche of a darker skinned race. While banning it may
be the easy way out, the product makes a stark accussation that cannot
be ignored. Having what your men want generates confidence......will u
ban high heels, lipstick (in fact all cosmetics) etc etc etc?
Fair and lovely gives u an edge in the world of the melanin
challenged, heels attempt (atleast they attempted at the time they
were conceived) to conceal that u are vertically challenged, and the
broad category of cosmetics attempt to conceal many a blemish, be it
aishwarya rai or moogambigai from west mambalam. The search is
basically for someone with a complexion/ colour that isn't
common...like for dusky beauties on the catwalks of Paris and for the
gaon ki goris in rampur.
btw given the current pressure, darwinian selection will veer towards
a certain subcontinental fairness...enough melanin and adequately
fair........white is biologically a risk, dark is a social
liabilty.......(though I see a rapidly developing market for the
dark).
btw, why does divya the cat want to be one large blemish if given a
choice? and in more ways than one by being Caucasian and not just
fair?

[Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan]

Frankly, I like being the dark, burnt "dosa" colour that I am.

--
http://www.selectiveamnesia.org

+91-9884087890

[Divya Manian]

Oh I love blue eyes =) and blue eyes go very well with fair skin.. =)
and blonde hair adds a perfect colour combination... its soothing and
perfect! Like the colours in a beach in summer!

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:59:24 -0500, Uma chandra mouli Natchu
<moul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

Like the colors on an American beach in what Americans call summer?

[Divya Manian]

no no. Beaches have no countries =) Its the summer you see depicted
in paintings. Coz painters like to show only the best color
combinations =)

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

"best" in the eyes of the painter
like dark mountains thrusting into dark clouds?
like dark bark sprouting forth from brown earth?

Coz painters sometimes also like to show the truth.


like rich dark chocolate?

ps: I am not an ad person and am zapped by the overwhelming majority
of copywriters/ merlins around

[Divya Manian]

For me...soothing colors are those of sand, the sky and the sea. And
those are what I love the best. And if you can get tht in human form,
why not?

divya

[mushroom_cloud]

[mushroom_cloud]

Maybe a brand that promotes colour consciousness isnt really the best
thing for us...there are two things however that mitigate if not
vindicate, the values propagated by the product...
1) Historically and contemprarily, Indians are among the most colour
conscious people there are...
one need only look at the matrimonial colunms..." Wanted fair bride,
fair brahmin boy, education no bar, fair kshatriya wanted"....ad
nauseum
2) The right to an opinion is one prerogarative they do possess...
not agreeing to what they say does not preclude their right to say
it...
if people don't like it....well, thats up to them

[ashish magotra]

mushroom> 1) Historically and contemprarily, Indians are among the most colour

conscious people there are...
one need only look at the matrimonial colunms..." Wanted fair bride,
fair brahmin boy, education no bar, fair kshatriya wanted"....ad

nauseum...

Hey, racism exists in every society so I think it's terribly unfair to
single out india... the other thing is... does the cream really work?

anyone... does it work??

[Divya Manian]

Hey Ashish

I have never used fair and lovely, but I know the Loreal Anti Wrinkle
works very well! =)

And yes racism is just not only in India but everywhere.

[ashish magotra]

that was very un-ladylike... to disclose that you use anti-wrinkle cream ;)

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

haven't found anything in favour of historical colour conscious among
Indians in mushroom cloud's argument and marriage is just one activity
in life. Atleast we never asked ourselves our colour before entering a
sulabh souchalay.........we aren't the most colour conscious by any
stretch....historically or now. period.

[Divya Manian]

er we are as color conscious as anyone else. We smile better when we
are talking to a caucasian. We put on the famous "indian hospitality"
when anybody with blue eyes and fair skin comes to our houses. Our
jealously meter shoots up whenever you see somebody entertaining a
white man in his/her house. I have seen it in my apartment ;) (or
flat as we call in Chennai)

Anyways I have wrinkly feet so I have to use an anti-wrinkle cream to
make them "fit" for my beautiful mules

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

Which proves my point..all those examples pale in comparison to having
a person chained and sold because he is dark

[ashish magotra]

"We smile better when we are talking to a caucasian."

Talking about yourself are you?

The question here is of perception...

[Ashwin Kumar]

> Which proves my point..all those examples pale in comparison to having
> a person chained and sold because he is dark

so racism is only when a white man chains a black man to sell for a
few pieces of gold? What about discrimination against color at
workplace/public places.
So how many dark skinned actresses do you find in the film industry?

I would agree that color consciousness is not seen among the educated
few in the Indian society. I would say 10% a very optimistic estimate.

~ashwin

[Uma chandra mouli Natchu]

valid...my objection is straightforward....India isn't the
worst.....widely prevalent- yes...severe -no. And in response to ur
actress question, many till a decade back and quite a few even
now.....radha, bhanupriya, etc etc ruled ....sneha etc rule....maybe
with a few extra layers of fair and lovely!!!!!!!!!!!

[Divya Manian]

If you are in U.S. or Europe then what I say may not be valid. But if
you are an Indian living in India then what I say is definitely valid.
Just take a white friend of urs to India and see the change in
behaviour of indians.

We are talking of perceptions and we are not trying to defend
whiteness or blackness. Please lets make that distinction. There may
have been actresses, we are not talking about them. We are talking
about whether Indians respond to fairness or not.

There was a study sometime ago which said fair and handsome men had
better chance of moving up the ladder than others of equal calibre. No
this study wasnt conducted in india but in U.S. So there goes
perception.

[Ashwin Kumar]

> Just take a white friend of urs to India and see the change in behaviour of indians.

I observed that right here, when I take out my German friends to
Indian restaurants. The attitude change of the staff is amazing.

> There was a study sometime ago which said fair and handsome men had
> better chance of moving up the ladder than others of equal calibre.

Have they tried marketing F&L to men? :) Imagine the kind of ads that
would be produced.

> > with a few extra layers of fair and lovely!!!!!!!!!!!

multi-layered deception.

~ashwin
PS: a matter of mailing/group-mails list etiquette, please refrain
from top-posting[1].
[1] http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

[moulicule]

Anyway
do we react to colour ----yes
are our reactions the worst?-- no
should Fair and Lovely be banned-- no...it doesn't help change reaction
to colour by banning it

[Swarnasrikrishnan Ganesan]

whether it changes ur reaction to color or not, what it does is that
it rubs the dark skinned (actually coloured) the wrong way by
depicting only fair skinned as successfull.... I my self has
experienced it when people tease my color and in films it is
atrociouos...how many of us would have enjoyed gowndamani scolding
senthil as black pig or something like that....
its so prevalent and ingrained that we seldom take it as abuse..

--
There is nothing called LOVE that exists- there is only Proof of it..
- Anonymous
Did I Blog Today?? Visit me at http://netrikkan.blogspot.com

[Sajan]

[Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan]

About Fair & Lovely's efficacy:

HLL, in a bid to corner the rural market a few decades ago, sent out
dark skinned salespeople who talked about the product F&L to the women
there. And to demonstrate, they would apply the concoction on one of
their hands, leaving the other untouched. Two hours back, they would
show the difference to the prospect. There was visible difference.

And needless to say, F&L sales hit the roof.

This incident is from the erstwhile A&M magazine. Not one of my own.

Chandru


On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:02:09 +0530, Sajan <saj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>


--
http://www.selectiveamnesia.org

+91-9884087890

[Swarnasrikrishnan Ganesan]

leave the marketing tactics or the strategies adapted....is such an ad
necessary or ethical is the issue..... agreed that Indians are fair
skin crazy.... but then rnt any other way to advertise the product....
y equate success with fair skin n there by imply all dark skins cant
hope for success... given the reach of media today, woudnt it b
advisable they have a self regulating maechanism in place???

[moulicule]

ethical is a difficult issue swarna, the answer would depend on whether
you are utilitarian, libertarian or egalitarian etc etc etc....to
equate some people being rubbed the wrong way with unethical
advertising would be presumptuous. More so when innaccurate and
falsified advertising, especially health related advertising goes on
just because most people know nothing about the factual errors in these
ads.
There is probably no advertising of cosmetics/ beautifying products
possible without rubbing anyone the wrong way. Is it ethical to sell
cigarettes?
Is any humour possible without hurting someone? the only humour that
isn't self/ any other effacing is the pun...where u ridicule
language...otherwise u r laughing at someone or the other.
We seem to turning this into a plea for affirmative action for dark
people.....a silly ad for a product which a clear niche... fairness
creams isn't enough to justify the amount of policing being advocated.
Think of this...if the ad raised enough concerns and ruffled enough
feathers to generate a wave of "colour fairness/ colour equality" among
people who saw the ad, will the ad then be ethical in a utilitarian
sense too?

[Avinash Subramaniam]

it's not advertising's fault. advertising only taps
into our deepest prejudices. for god's sake, stop
blaming advertising for everything. we use fair and
lovely becos we feel inferioir to the whites.
everything else is just hiding behind intellectual masturbation.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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[moulicule]

Common Professor, advertsising may tap our deepest prejudices but
advertising blatantly lies ....for example the kids u are immune
because they eat apples from a particular fridge, the kid who always
tops is class and in every possible field because he drinks
bournvita,.......... creative license I suppose? for me nothing is
creativity if there are no borders...the one border I am concerned with
is the best available truth. If fair and lovely works ...the ad
stays.....everything is hiding behind lies......imagine a world where
pharmaceutical companies lie to us?...imagine if the antibiotic kills
no bugs...U could brush everything under a carpet called intellectual
masturbation but face the truth.....advertising needs clear regulations
and there are none...except if surf infringes on ariel and pepsi on
coke..........everything is ok under the garb of creativity!!
True creativity is when u accomodate both the truth and innovation/
imagination...not just one

[Avinash Subramaniam]

this is an important announcement. we are sorry to
interrupt regular programming on this channel. we
would like to have your attention for yet another
tsunami relief call! please spread the word. the ideas
are pouring in. pardon the pun.

spread the word.

hutch radio updates:
MEA decides to send indian comfort women to...umm,
comfort the armed forces involved in benami relief
work for the tsunami. the people will not be covered
under this because they're anywhere fucked.

ashok banker decides to release his latest novel in
advance, he's called it 'luvvv in a time of celebral
malaria.' advance reports suggest the seamen are
flocking for the early bird copies.

going soon! disaster packages to port blair. free dead
body pornography shows all through the trip. unlimited
peeks into standalone body parts. register now. we
accept all kinds of checks!

buy now! tsunami winter socks with little japanese
girls panties tagged on for extra intimacy. spread the
warmth this tragic season, call +919841251784 for your
tsunami winter socks. have a great day. and yes, we
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hottest stories on tsunami blaxploitation. call
9841251784 and do your bit, now!

buy loads of crap at junk prices and label them for
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items.

all suggestions for benami relief can be registered
anonymously. now! now! now!

Regards, warmly,
saleswriter.

[Swarnasrikrishnan Ganesan]

agreed!!!!....so is it jus a mask to hide behind...rnt there ne other
ways to advertise....only equating success with color of skin??...if u
c the ad....the girl is without a job n all n is subjected to all sort
of humiliation when she isnt using F&L...but she uses
F&L...viola...she turns fair n lovely n everything seems to fall in
place.....advt...is taps deep prejudices.....sorry then u do nothing
great than a sooth sayer who says good things n a street end priest
who makes money in name of god....
y cant u use a better way to address people's mind....other than
tapping prejudices..thats my question

[Avinash Subramaniam]

you think, benami tsunami relief calls and a tax
holiday on all contributions, benami or otherwise,
will bring out the black money. you know how people
feel about doing good and getting away with
whitewashing the bad, while doing good? like a tsunami
VDIs scheme? come on, it's not that unthinkable.

[Avinash Subramaniam]

come on, human being, human beings lie. all the time.
advertising just brings out, and advertises, what's in
us. dun blame advertising for the lies that are
inherent to our race. Sir.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com

[moulicule]

just got off a night flight...sleepy and my syntax and spellings are
all warped..
Come on profesor........the kids who are immune..........tops in
class......
sorry

[moulicule]

Dont blame human beings for all the lies that are inherent in
advertising..wake up...u guys need to be answerable.....I am sleepy but
u need to wake up Sir

[moulicule]

[Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan]

Well, didn't you all believe in fairy tales as kids? DIdn't we believe
in Krishna spewing yards of sarees to help Draupadi? Didn't we enjoy
the Prince Charming and Snow White's story?

The point is, advertising is just creating a modern fairy tale for all
of us to enjoy...you can either be a stone hearted sceptic and say it
is hog wash, or give in and enjoy the 30 seconds of warmth and fun.

Advertising at the end of the day, is the truest barometer of the
society's conscious.

If the advertising is truthful, it means the society is capable and
mature enough to accept the truth. If it is not, the society does not
too. So there.

--
http://www.selectiveamnesia.org

+91-9884087890

[Swarnasrikrishnan Ganesan]

isnt jus a farce to hide behind society....lets not equate myths with
advertisements....advs r to inform people about some products...myths
r the products themselves...had adv for mahabharat been "story of 5
brothers sharing a lady"...then may b what u told might hold good....i
dont think mahabharat was advertised as one such....
if the product is proven why go for such an ad...when ads are made
isnt it the responsibilty of the maker to genuienly take the interest
of the society into consideration....if u tell the society is like
that n hence i jus tap it...then there wouldnt been any changes in the
society forever...think had this been the case, there wouldnt have
been even independence...gandhi was able to inform people about the
necessity of freedom....he was able to probogate the message,...had he
blamed the nature of the society then may b we woudlnt have got
freedom only.....blaming society is NOT the solution..

[Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan]

Krish

Point #1 - Mahabaratha wasn't advertised not that I know of - If
advertised, I think it would have been advertised as the great war
between brothers - so there is our advanced society - violence and
filial enmity.

#2 - Gandhi didn't tell people the necessity for freedom - he just
happened to be around when the overwhelming majority of the people
wanted "independence" and he was able to get together and manage a
working coalition of people who managed to get us the independence.
Telling me that Gandhi was instrumental in getting us independence is
insulting the others, the ones who lost their lives much earlier
-Subhash Chandra Bose - Vellore Kumaran - Jhansi Rani - and the
unknown - unsung warriors of the 1857 revolt - No disrespect intended
to Gandhi, but forever harping on him to the exclusion of others is
foolishness..
And I dont understand how you are able to connect up Gandhi and
Advertising - do help me on this.

#3 - All performing, commercial and other art forms are a reflection
of the society they are in - if they didnt, the art form would be
shallow and meaningless - advertising is just the truest - cause it is
able to show the soceity as it is - like holding up a mirror at us -
so we can see us as we are - and not as some abstract concept on a
canvas or a 35mm screen of moving images - advertising is, and this
point bears repetition - the truest barometer of any society - if you
can't live with it, you ought to be an ascetic.

The question arises - how can advertising be the truest - and why not
the other forms?

Other art forms such as dance, paintings, movies have an individual's
perception, her or his views embedded deep into the art - they are the
life - a painting the painters life and ideas as its very fabric - the
painter leaves her or his signature, an imprint on the painting.

The same is true of movies and dance - but advertising - commercial
art - is unlike the others cause it is a truly anonymous art form - in
that sense it is the entire society's creation - it doesn't have the
imprint of just one creator - a copywriter, an art director - the
agency management - the client - the ad film maker - the director -
the actors - the press - the censor - each and every one of them shape
and craft the ad - leaving behind their own prejudices and likes and
dislikes - often mutilating it beyond recognition - just like in
everyday society - where a million people leave their imprints on it -

Also, one of the most important requirement of a good ad is that it be
relevant and topical - in that it shows the current happenings and
feelings of the society - and if the current hot news is pornography -
you can bet your ass that advertising will reflect it - if only to
ride on porn's popularity.

See, I don't blame society - I just tell you that advertising is only
a reflection of the society - now - if you want to blame advertising -
some of that blame ought to be on the society that creates the
advertising.



Chandru

--
http://www.selectiveamnesia.org

+91-9884087890

[Swarnasrikrishnan Ganesan]

Chandra....agreed.....exclusion of others would b insult....n
yeah...even when i wrote abut gandhi i too wasnt that sure of
substantiating that..but that doesnt mean that i agree with you...BTW
nethaji to my knowledge is a contemporary...n yeah the others werent
intersted in the freedom of India as they were in their own suzuranity
n their own kingdom....1857 is true magnificient...but is the cause of
it a sense of wanting to b free or is it jus a revolt of different
religious grops against what they perceive to b an injustice to their
beleifs...letz b a bit practical....1857 in my opinion had been blown
outta proposition...the other kings took advantage of the revolt to
gaurd their own kingdom....
gandhi gave the struggle a new direction....i have no love lost for
the man, but then truth is truth....

I wouldnt agree that all art forms are mere reflection of
society....they tend to create a new reality too....as i told earlier,
if they had been such, may b we would not have celebrated bharathi r
any other poet...they r spoken today coz they thought out of the
bounds of their contemporary society...

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:13:32 +0530, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan