Geezz, whats goin' on there at MTN? - clayy.jpg (1/1)
Shaun
doing with pictures of mens bare ass? :)
Shaun
Special K wrote in message <36ccb33e...@news.pangea.ca>...
bay...@mbnet.mb.ca
to surf and get on the newsgroups.
But I like Clay and how he and Callison banter back and forth.
All right, I'll come right out of the Watercloset, or outhouse and admit
that i really like 1290.
I really like the fact that these young guys in their 30s are doing the
talk thing.
Rick Lowewn is a very witty guy and ive always found him to be an addition
to Winnipegs usually boring media game.
I like the afternoon guys, but do admit that they go way overboard quite
often with controversy but at least you get exposed to material that you
wouldnt ordinarily hear.
I think its healthy to hear the most radical left and right sides so you
can at least understand what the publics attitudes are out there. Better
this, than to try to ignore it as it percolates unchecked.
And like Ive said before, get on the air and challenge these people.
If you truly feel that they are spreading hate or inciting violence, then
get on the air and set the record straight. Dont be rude and get cut off,
but have a rational discussion with them.
People may agree with your viewpoints, and then you have made an impact.
But if all the audience ever hears is the same bashing day in and day out
and you sit back knowing that its happening, what do you think will happen.
I challenged John a few times on the air, and I told Gerald when he
complained about bad service at a restaurant, that talk show hosts
also have to abide by some of the same rules of service- not hang up
on people, dont put on hold too long and take all cell calls first,
give the people what they want.
I think that all the guys on 1290 have pretty good heads on their shoulders
and they would probably soften their styles if more people with other views
would call in and challenge them.
As far as Im concerned, Talk radio is almost the only way democratic way
to get your views out, and to actually speak directly to people like
Filmon, Doer, Tom Cochrane (i called in), and other major figures.
you tell me how else you can get your questions answered by Gary Filmon?
(unless you are a political animal and travel in those circles.)
Yes, CBC is quality radio and tv.
I called CBC and didnt get on in time for Rex twice, and told them to
1. get more than 5 lines (not enough for a cross country show) they
should have a few lines in each province and just write down your questoins
and forward them to Rex, otherwise you could spend 2 hours trying to get
on while Half of Quebec and Ontario are dialing.
Glen Murray and China. Personally, I would rather he be a stay home mayor,
and get the business people to go with Filmon. I dont want a mayor hopscotching
the globe every 6 months and I told him that on the CBC talk radio show
before the election.
In China, there is a big ongoing controvery over the 3 Gorges project...
which Canada was one of the first to lend millions of dollars to, despite
the fact that this gorge will displace about 1.2 million people and flood
about 125 towns and cities.
We wont even mention the human rights policies in China and what the
Mayor talked about there, ate, or plans to do there in the future.
Whenever I see a young politician go on international trips, I figure
that he is grooming him/herself for a higher position after this gig is
up. But not on the backs of the tax payer. Mayors shouldnt travel the globe
when we have so many financial challenges here.
PS: the movie "The Storm" or whatever its called, is on at 8pm. Its the
one that Winnipeg Frantic films did the special effects for. Although, I
couldnt see their names in the credits, unless they own a US subsidiary.
I only watched half hour of it, so I couldnt tell if the snow was real
or the special effect.
Special K
all
"Years ago, it meant something to be crazy. Now everyone's crazy."
--Charles Manson
Special K
"Years ago, it meant something to be crazy. Now everyone's crazy."
--Charles Manson
Ptim
the world with:
|<bay...@mbnet.mb.ca> wrote in message
|news:Dt3z2.598$j%.4335@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca...
|>I cant see any picture since I use DOS Procomm communications program
|>to surf and get on the newsgroups.
|
|Believe me, you're not missing much.
|
It wasn't my cup of tea.
|>But I like Clay and how he and Callison banter back and forth.
|
|Tweedle dee and tweedle dum.
Its Entertaining.
|>All right, I'll come right out of the Watercloset, or outhouse and admit
|that i really like 1290.
|
|Now I have my suspicions confimed. Your nuts.
The fact that Bayomi listens to 1290 is not one of the determining
factors of his insanity.
|>I really like the fact that these young guys in their 30s are doing the
|>talk thing.>
|>Rick Lowewn is a very witty guy and ive always found him to be an addition
|to Winnipegs usually boring media game.
|>
|>I like the afternoon guys, but do admit that they go way overboard quite
|often with controversy but at least you get exposed to material that you
|wouldnt ordinarily hear.
|>
|>I think its healthy to hear the most radical left and right sides so you
|>can at least understand what the publics attitudes are out there.
|
|Comeon Don, open your ears. You never hear a left wing view on either of
|the afternoon shows.
Some of the guests. Collison had the leader of the homeless protest on
the other day, tore him up pretty good. Poor guy didn't stand a
chance.
| All you get is: Right wing, reform party, religious
|menonnite conservative viewpoints of Gerald Fast.
You have a problem with mennonites, JJ? You Racist bastard.
|The man rants, and
|sometimes thinks he can provoke people into phoning in by exposing his
|biased and intolerant beliefs.
He's entitled to believe what he wants to, or would you have him
gagged? For somebody who wants people to be tolerant, you sure aren't.
|There is no balance to the show whatsoever,
Should there be?
|and eventually the gullible suckers who drool literally over every word out
|of his homophobic and intolerant filthy mouth, will realize what an asshole
|he is.
So they'll have to agree with you, is that it? Or what? They're stupid
too?
| If someone does call in to disagree he gets extremely defensive,
|starts to use insults and namecalling as a defence.
Only if the caller goes along the lines of what you're saying, with
nothing to add to a conversation. Stop whining JJ, you look foolish.
| Usually the
|disagreeing caller will get cut short. Listen to this jackass Don. He is
|an uneducated simplistic egomaniac.
*WHINE*
|Better
|>this, than to try to ignore it as it percolates unchecked.
|>
|>And like Ive said before, get on the air and challenge these people.
|>
|>If you truly feel that they are spreading hate or inciting violence, then
|>get on the air and set the record straight. Dont be rude and get cut off,
|>but have a rational discussion with them.
|
|Impossible with these assholes. If you disagree with them, *poof* your
|gone!
Only if you were to start sounding like a whiny sniveling rodent. Kind
of how you're sounding right now.
|>People may agree with your viewpoints, and then you have made an impact.
|>
|>But if all the audience ever hears is the same bashing day in and day out
|>and you sit back knowing that its happening, what do you think will happen.
|
|Don, its impossible to make an impact with these two. They are desperate
|for ratings and credibility. They will do and say anything to try to get
|some attention.
Most people in the media want people to listen to them, regardless of
their ratings.
| And they have no credibility in the existing media with
|including the MTN newsroom, which is known as the "joke newsroom of the
|media"
Point being?
|There is an incestuious relationship with Clay Young and 1290 Talk
|with an Idiot. And every other credible media outlet in town realizes this.
|Ratings for 1290 AND MTN continue to languish in the basement of the pile.
|1290 rates just above CBC Radio 2 and below such biggies as Magic 99.9
|mushmusic, and MTN news is bottom of the pile by a large margin.
1 million elvis fans can't be wrong.
| And Don, they do spread hate and violence. Especially Fast. He is a
|very hateful and homophobic person who does truely believe his point of view
|is correct.
Wow. I'd hate to listen to someone who doesn't even believe what he's
saying. Heaven forbid. Do you actually believe what you're saying?
|And he continues to preach and state complete LIES on the air.
Uh huh...
|Because the audience for this station tends to be of the lesser educated
|types and generally ignorant, many start to believe his loquatious spewings
|because they hear it so often.
Yup... again I hear it from you JJ, your whining and footstomping that
because someone doesn't agree with you, they're an idiot. I'll even
predict you call me something similar, because I won't agree.
| As for Collison, at least he is consistant. A total jerk, with no
|compassion whatsoever for his fellow man. This is the type of human garbage
|that ruled the world when feudalism and slavery reigned.
Uh huh. No compassion. He only wants a society where people are able
to make up their own minds, make their own decisions rather than have
government make decisions for them. Sounds pretty nasty to me.
Why is it that "liberals" (and I use the bastardized, modern
definition) like you want the government to shut up everyone who's a
dissenter to their opinions? Sounds pretty totalitarian, almost
fascistic.
|>I challenged John a few times on the air, and I told Gerald when he
|>complained about bad service at a restaurant, that talk show hosts
|>also have to abide by some of the same rules of service- not hang up
|>on people, dont put on hold too long and take all cell calls first,
|>give the people what they want.
|
|Ooooo, I will bet that made an impact.
Yeah...
|>I think that all the guys on 1290 have pretty good heads on their shoulders
|and they would probably soften their styles if more people with other views
|>would call in and challenge them.
|
|BULLSHIT, Bayomi, your a fool. They have very high opinions of themselves
|and will never soften their styles. Fast in particular has NO TOLERANCE for
|dissent on his show. At least Collison will entertain debate, but when he
|starts to lose the arguement he reverts to the name calling Fast is so good
|at. Don't waste your time. Their days are numbered.
You want them gagged? Why? Scared of free speech? Scared of people
voicing opinions that you may disagree with?
|Many CRTC
|complaints, Collison gets yanked again for calling people with Tourettes
|Syndrome names, Collison gets arrested by the CN Police for trespassing.
|Give him enough rope. He will hang himself.
Fascist! Get out of here! Take a hike! I don't want to hear you
complain about intolerance when you yourself aren't tolerant of
dissenting opinions.
|>As far as Im concerned, Talk radio is almost the only way democratic way
|>to get your views out, and to actually speak directly to people like
|>Filmon, Doer, Tom Cochrane (i called in), and other major figures.
|>
|>you tell me how else you can get your questions answered by Gary Filmon?
|>(unless you are a political animal and travel in those circles.)
|>
|>Yes, CBC is quality radio and tv.
|>
|>I called CBC and didnt get on in time for Rex twice, and told them to
|>1. get more than 5 lines (not enough for a cross country show) they
|>should have a few lines in each province and just write down your questoins
|>and forward them to Rex, otherwise you could spend 2 hours trying to get
|>on while Half of Quebec and Ontario are dialing.
|
|Its a national show Don. Large numbers of people call in. Having 50 lines
|wouldn't get you in faster.
You'd think he'd figure that.
|>Glen Murray and China. Personally, I would rather he be a stay home mayor,
|>and get the business people to go with Filmon. I dont want a mayor
|hopscotching
|>the globe every 6 months and I told him that on the CBC talk radio show
|>before the election.
|
|If it improves the economic climate and attracts business in the City of
|Winnipeg, then I hope he never stays home.
Nothing going on in the City that a mayor should concern himself with.
|Getting out there, drumming up
|new, innovative business for this city is a great idea.
And innovative businesses would be able to find their own way here, if
there was a climate that was conducive to it. You can go and sell
yourself to a million people, and they may buy it, but if they realize
that the city isn't a place for their business to prosper, they'll
pack their bags.
|It is a global
|economic environment out there Don and I am more than glad to hear Mayor
|Murray is trying new initiatives. Wake up Don, obviously the mayor nor
|anyone else cares about your opinion.
You're right. It is a global economy. Now if we could only get rid of
those pesky trade barriers and tarrifs that prevent it from
flourishing.
|>In China, there is a big ongoing controvery over the 3 Gorges project...
|>which Canada was one of the first to lend millions of dollars to, despite
|>the fact that this gorge will displace about 1.2 million people and flood
|>about 125 towns and cities.
|>
|>We wont even mention the human rights policies in China and what the
|>Mayor talked about there, ate, or plans to do there in the future.
|>
|>Whenever I see a young politician go on international trips, I figure
|>that he is grooming him/herself for a higher position after this gig is
|>up. But not on the backs of the tax payer. Mayors shouldnt travel the globe
|>when we have so many financial challenges here.
|
|Get a life, expand your mind.
I suppose you have no problems with whats going on in China, since
they don't allow people like Fast or Collison on the air. Probably an
ideal place, eh?
Ptim
---
"Anyone who must be persuaded to be free probably
doesn't deserve to be."
-- L. Neil Smith
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
>I hope you didn't spend all the time making this pic.. what are you
>doing with pictures of mens bare ass? :)
>
>Shaun
>
>
>Special K wrote in message <36ccb33e...@news.pangea.ca>...
>
>
Could someone please repost the the jpg as reply so that I may see it.
bay...@mbnet.mb.ca
re: JJs overly critical statements about 1290 - not tolerant
Sorry, JJ but I tend to agree with the other person who said that you
of all people have expressed very anti tolerant, and pro censorship views.
i agree that Collison goes way over the top on issues and that Fast often
seems like a very hate filled person especially as it relates to issues
of sexual preference, but snuffing their viewpoints is not how to handle it.
You know that if you, or others make complaints to the CRTC, they will either
go to a different station with a larger audience (could be USA) or start to
do their stick on realaudio (talkradio.com, conversa.com- I havnet checked
them yet but they are newish global talk formats, one owned by guy who used
to own Sierra Games)
I dont want a country where dissenting views are forced underground.
I believe some militaristic countries have done this in the past...forced
such talk into the beerhalls silently, until the masses gathered and a movement
went into effect.
Its best to have alternative views expressed and allow people to get on
and discuss them.
You wont get cut off any radio format, if you understand media and the host
and how to say things in a way which wont force the cutoff button.
Just use psychology with them, and if you consider yourself to be such a
more intelligent person than they are, then you certainly can stick handle
the language around enough so you can prove your points gradually over time
and sway many of the callers to an alternative way of thinkings.
JJ, it is most obvious and you have never hid the fact why you dont like
what Collison says, the fact that he rants against people being gay.
call him and confront him with it, dont hope that the government will squash
him becuase there will be plenty more like him who can take his place on
the air waves... unless as the other poster suggested you want to see
A Mao type controlled media, where only government filtered views get
expressed.
Tell your freinds to do like that old timer station and set up a part time
altrnative views radio station. id listen to that, and everything else on
the dial.
I want to hear all views, from the safest and most mainstream to the most
far out. We are human beings, and not aliens and these views are coming
from people with brains who have come up with a way of thought from somewhere.
I want you, JJ and any others with similar views to reconsider any attempts
to complain to the CRTC to remove this type of content.
Let the market decide what can occur.
But better yet, as I say, dont let the host or the callers get away with
making statements unchallenged.
That would be the cowards way. You confront them there, as you confront me
or others here, and sometimes views can be changed, sometimes they cant.
This small little group of us on the newsgroup is nothing compared to
those in the city, and as you mention those in the global scene.
Regarding Mayor Murray.
I didnt vote for him, but he has my support to do good things with the city,
dont get me wrong on that.
I dont know what he accomplished in China and wonder how relevant it is
when we have things like Main St, Pan Am, $30 mill cost overruns on bridges
and other local matters.
I think Filmon can do it, and private business.
on a slighly humorous side, I think Murray looks to excited about his trips
and makes it seem like he is going because he thinks its a perk of the job
and not so much a duty that he was bestowed with.
Anyhow, those are some thoughts.
Now, I want to hear you on the talk show, and not going to the CRTC or
other body to snuff this dissention.
Call the station and ask the viewers for their replies .
Thomas James
individuals who may have been gay, as well as others who are not.
-Thomas
Craig Bennett
now that was classic.
Craig
| Craig Bennett <thec...@NOSPAMmindless.com>
| About 2700 Jokes: TheClyde's Searchable Humor Archive
| http://www.pangea.ca/~theclyde/jokes
| ** Now more than 3500 jokes in the archive **
| (remove the NOSPAM to email me)
Glen Hallick
snip.
>
> | All you get is: Right wing, reform party, religious
> |menonnite conservative viewpoints of Gerald Fast.
>
> You have a problem with mennonites, JJ? You Racist bastard.
I have to admit that when I read JJ's post I did take something of an offence to
"...religious mennomite conservative...", but before responding I thought I check
to see what "Collison" had to say.
Though I am not a Mennonite myself, I do have a lot of Mennonite relatives in
Steinbach and Altona. It comes from one of my grandmothers having been born in
Halbstadt. Plus spending many summers in Steinbach with my grandparents and my
aunt and uncle, I have had many opportunities to see more than one side of the
Mennonite community.
When it comes to the pious religious imposition of a certain moral code, I don't
give a rat's ass if the person is Mennonite, Baptist, Lutheran, Hindu, Muslim, or
whatever I don't like it. I guess it comes from the battles my aunt and uncle
used to have in Steinbach with their hotels. First the Tourist Hotel that was on
Main St. and later the Frantz Motor Inn.
The hypocrisy of many of the opponents to their hotel was extremely thick.
Publically, in and around Steinbach, they were against drinking. Yet they could
be found in their basements drinking excessively. Some closed the curtains so the
Lord wouldn't see them. Others ventured to the near by Francophone towns to sit
in the pub.
A friend of my cousin's worked a garage in Steinbach and a good portion of
clientel requested him to work on their cars. However when my cousin's friend
started living common law his francophone girlfriend that all changed. They
refused to have him work on their cars.
Lastly I will say that I do know Mennonites who's religious beliefs make them
sound like good socialists when it comes to social issues. Afterall one of the
foundations of the Mennonite sect is pacifism.
Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
have lower voter turnouts.
Glen
Ptim
<ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
|Ptim wrote:
|
|
|snip.
|
|>
|> | All you get is: Right wing, reform party, religious
|> |menonnite conservative viewpoints of Gerald Fast.
|>
|> You have a problem with mennonites, JJ? You Racist bastard.
|
|I have to admit that when I read JJ's post I did take something of an offence to
|"...religious mennomite conservative...", but before responding I thought I check
|to see what "Collison" had to say.
Hmm... I suppose you mean me. I guess humour is lost on this lot.
|Though I am not a Mennonite myself, I do have a lot of Mennonite relatives in
|Steinbach and Altona. It comes from one of my grandmothers having been born in
|Halbstadt. Plus spending many summers in Steinbach with my grandparents and my
|aunt and uncle, I have had many opportunities to see more than one side of the
|Mennonite community.
I am a mennonite. I am part of a mennonite community. My family is
mennonite. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part its
mennonite.
|When it comes to the pious religious imposition of a certain moral code, I don't
|give a rat's ass if the person is Mennonite, Baptist, Lutheran, Hindu, Muslim, or
|whatever I don't like it. I guess it comes from the battles my aunt and uncle
|used to have in Steinbach with their hotels. First the Tourist Hotel that was on
|Main St. and later the Frantz Motor Inn.
Well Glen, I'm not of the belief that we should legislate any sort of
morality. Morality is something that each person needs to develop for
themselves. I may be of the opinion that there is only one source of
that morality, I can't legislate (nor should I) that everyone else
adhere to those. While laws that protect individual freedoms are
important (fraud, murder, theft, etc), laws which impose restrictions
on how individuals live their own lives (drug possession, gun
ownership, pornography possession, living arrangements) often do more
harm than good.
|The hypocrisy of many of the opponents to their hotel was extremely thick.
|Publically, in and around Steinbach, they were against drinking. Yet they could
|be found in their basements drinking excessively. Some closed the curtains so the
|Lord wouldn't see them. Others ventured to the near by Francophone towns to sit
|in the pub.
Well Glen, its time for a lesson on mennonites. There are two main
branches that are prevailent in the Southern Manitoba region. They are
the General Conference and Mennonite Brethern. It is the MBs that have
the rules against alcohol consumption. Communities like Altona,
Morden, and Winkler are GC, so alcohol consumption is not frowned on
as much. Steinbach is a more MB community, and its adherents are also
the town council. There is a lot of behind the scenes manipulation
that takes place in Steinbach, but that's due more to a power trip
than anything else. No different than any other government. So if
mennonites drink, they're more often than not GC.
|A friend of my cousin's worked a garage in Steinbach and a good portion of
|clientel requested him to work on their cars. However when my cousin's friend
|started living common law his francophone girlfriend that all changed. They
|refused to have him work on their cars.
That's a problem for you how? People should be allowed to freely
associate with whomever they wish. I see no problem there.
|Lastly I will say that I do know Mennonites who's religious beliefs make them
|sound like good socialists when it comes to social issues. Afterall one of the
|foundations of the Mennonite sect is pacifism.
Well Glen, most mennonites will not be socialist, and I'll tell you
why.
Stalin.
The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that. Anyone who
was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
among those men.
Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
The mennonites came to the Ukraine with nothing, they'd been kicked
out of their previous country. Katherine the Great gave them land in
Ukraine, unworkable land. Land that nobody could survive on. The
mennonites worked hard, and with their farming skills were able to
make the land productive.
To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
|Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
|government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
|have lower voter turnouts.
Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
Glen Hallick
> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:23:40 -0600, Glen Hallick
> <ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
>
snip.
>
>
> |The hypocrisy of many of the opponents to their hotel was extremely thick.
> |Publically, in and around Steinbach, they were against drinking. Yet they could
> |be found in their basements drinking excessively. Some closed the curtains so the
> |Lord wouldn't see them. Others ventured to the near by Francophone towns to sit
> |in the pub.
>
> Well Glen, its time for a lesson on mennonites. There are two main
> branches that are prevailent in the Southern Manitoba region. They are
> the General Conference and Mennonite Brethern. It is the MBs that have
> the rules against alcohol consumption. Communities like Altona,
> Morden, and Winkler are GC, so alcohol consumption is not frowned on
> as much. Steinbach is a more MB community, and its adherents are also
> the town council. There is a lot of behind the scenes manipulation
> that takes place in Steinbach, but that's due more to a power trip
> than anything else. No different than any other government. So if
> mennonites drink, they're more often than not GC.
To add to your lesson, there over 50 differents sects of Mennonites largely defined by
the amount of modern technology they accept.
>
>
> |A friend of my cousin's worked a garage in Steinbach and a good portion of
> |clientel requested him to work on their cars. However when my cousin's friend
> |started living common law his francophone girlfriend that all changed. They
> |refused to have him work on their cars.
>
> That's a problem for you how? People should be allowed to freely
> associate with whomever they wish. I see no problem there.
For a person to base their judgement of another on with whom he is spending is life
with and her ancestory is sheer ignorance.
>
>
> |Lastly I will say that I do know Mennonites who's religious beliefs make them
> |sound like good socialists when it comes to social issues. Afterall one of the
> |foundations of the Mennonite sect is pacifism.
>
> Well Glen, most mennonites will not be socialist, and I'll tell you
> why.
>
> Stalin.
Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
>
>
> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
Very true.
The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
>
> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
> Anyone who
> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
> among those men.
Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
during that time.
>
>
> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
>
> The mennonites came to the Ukraine with nothing, they'd been kicked
> out of their previous country. Katherine the Great gave them land in
> Ukraine, unworkable land. Land that nobody could survive on. The
> mennonites worked hard, and with their farming skills were able to
> make the land productive.
The Czarist regimes brought in a lot of farmers from other countries.
>
>
> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
>
>
> |Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
> |government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
> |have lower voter turnouts.
>
> Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
Gees in my experiences in the party I have come accross many Mennonites that belong to
the party or are supportive of the NDP. Still I would agree that in southern Manitoba
the general population doesn't vote NDP.
Hell, a while back they would not have voted for the Tories, but rather for the Social
Credit Party.
Glen
r3d3...@ecn.ab.ca
: Could someone please repost the the jpg as reply so that I may see it.
--
What are you into now, nevins?
--
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
I realize anewbie such as your self may need help following threads
sometimes so I will try to help you along. Someone obviously posted a
touched up photo of a local television personality and the binary did
not make it to my news server for some strange reason. So I asked that
someone please repost the jpg so that I might see it and therefore see
what they were talking about. It may have been more appropriate to ask
that someone send it to me via e-mail since this is not a binary group
and some people do frown on the posting of binaries to non-binary
groups. Any more questions?
Ptim
<ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
|Ptim wrote:
|
|> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:23:40 -0600, Glen Hallick
|> <ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
|>
|
|snip.
|
|>
|>
|> |The hypocrisy of many of the opponents to their hotel was extremely thick.
|> |Publically, in and around Steinbach, they were against drinking. Yet they could
|> |be found in their basements drinking excessively. Some closed the curtains so the
|> |Lord wouldn't see them. Others ventured to the near by Francophone towns to sit
|> |in the pub.
|>
|> Well Glen, its time for a lesson on mennonites. There are two main
|> branches that are prevailent in the Southern Manitoba region. They are
|> the General Conference and Mennonite Brethern. It is the MBs that have
|> the rules against alcohol consumption. Communities like Altona,
|> Morden, and Winkler are GC, so alcohol consumption is not frowned on
|> as much. Steinbach is a more MB community, and its adherents are also
|> the town council. There is a lot of behind the scenes manipulation
|> that takes place in Steinbach, but that's due more to a power trip
|> than anything else. No different than any other government. So if
|> mennonites drink, they're more often than not GC.
|
|To add to your lesson, there over 50 differents sects of Mennonites largely defined by
|the amount of modern technology they accept.
True.
|> |A friend of my cousin's worked a garage in Steinbach and a good portion of
|> |clientel requested him to work on their cars. However when my cousin's friend
|> |started living common law his francophone girlfriend that all changed. They
|> |refused to have him work on their cars.
|>
|> That's a problem for you how? People should be allowed to freely
|> associate with whomever they wish. I see no problem there.
|
|For a person to base their judgement of another on with whom he is spending is life
|with and her ancestory is sheer ignorance.
But that's the beauty of freedom, Glen. People are allowed to make
stupid decisions based on completely irrational criteria. What
solution would you propose? Have the government fine them for this?
Throw them in jail?
|> |Lastly I will say that I do know Mennonites who's religious beliefs make them
|> |sound like good socialists when it comes to social issues. Afterall one of the
|> |foundations of the Mennonite sect is pacifism.
|>
|> Well Glen, most mennonites will not be socialist, and I'll tell you
|> why.
|>
|> Stalin.
|
|Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
|your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
Stalin is socialism drawn to its logical conclusion.
Tell me, why every state based on a form of socialism has been an
oppressive dictatorship?
|> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
|
|Very true.
|
|The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
|
An exception being Katherine the Great.
|> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
|
|And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
|Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
I never claimed that exclusivity.
|> Anyone who
|> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
|> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
|> among those men.
|
|Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
|Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
|during that time.
They'd come in the middle of the night, take the fathers, and if not
shoot them, send them to the prison camps. Most of them never survived
the trip.
|> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
|> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
|> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
|
|All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
|family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
|family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
My family was the opposite, the fled to Germany during the war,
retreating with the German army. They didn't know about the jewish
holocaust then, they only wanted to get away from their own holocaust.
|BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
|be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
Nestor Machno comes to mind.
|> The mennonites came to the Ukraine with nothing, they'd been kicked
|> out of their previous country. Katherine the Great gave them land in
|> Ukraine, unworkable land. Land that nobody could survive on. The
|> mennonites worked hard, and with their farming skills were able to
|> make the land productive.
|
|The Czarist regimes brought in a lot of farmers from other countries.
|
|
|>
|>
|> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
|> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
|
|Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
|an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
Well, self-titled dogooders. I don't think anything they did was good.
I guess I should have put quotes around the term.
|> |Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
|> |government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
|> |have lower voter turnouts.
|>
|> Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
|
|Gees in my experiences in the party I have come accross many Mennonites that belong to
|the party or are supportive of the NDP. Still I would agree that in southern Manitoba
|the general population doesn't vote NDP.
|
|Hell, a while back they would not have voted for the Tories, but rather for the Social
|Credit Party.
Well, everybody knows the Tories could run a Yellow Dog in
Winkler/Morden and win. Maybe the NDP should try to split the vote.
Buffalo Bill
>I realize anewbie such as your self may need help following threads
>sometimes so I will try to help you along. Someone obviously posted a
>touched up photo of a local television personality and the binary did
>not make it to my news server for some strange reason. So I asked that
>someone please repost the jpg so that I might see it and therefore see
>what they were talking about. It may have been more appropriate to ask
>that someone send it to me via e-mail since this is not a binary group
>and some people do frown on the posting of binaries to non-binary
>groups. Any more questions?
>
ROTFLMAO!!!
I can almost see his lips moving while he reads your reply...
Glen Hallick
> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:43:44 -0600, Glen Hallick
> <ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
>
snip.
>
> |
> |To add to your lesson, there over 50 differents sects of Mennonites largely defined by
> |the amount of modern technology they accept.
>
> True.
>
> |> |A friend of my cousin's worked a garage in Steinbach and a good portion of
> |> |clientel requested him to work on their cars. However when my cousin's friend
> |> |started living common law his francophone girlfriend that all changed. They
> |> |refused to have him work on their cars.
> |>
> |> That's a problem for you how? People should be allowed to freely
> |> associate with whomever they wish. I see no problem there.
> |
> |For a person to base their judgement of another on with whom he is spending is life
> |with and her ancestory is sheer ignorance.
>
> But that's the beauty of freedom, Glen. People are allowed to make
> stupid decisions based on completely irrational criteria. What
> solution would you propose? Have the government fine them for this?
> Throw them in jail?
I would suggest to you Tim that you re-study your personal concept of freedom as it is
becoming clear to me you have yet to think it out completely. If you honestly believe in
freedom then you should accept the fact that I have the freedom to criticize others for
their ignorant judgements.
My solution is my post. I see something that I consider as wrong I state my case.
>
snip.
>
> |> Well Glen, most mennonites will not be socialist, and I'll tell you
> |> why.
> |>
> |> Stalin.
> |
> |Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
> |your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
>
> Stalin is socialism drawn to its logical conclusion.
Bullshit.
I suspect you are buying into a type of historical revisionism that disguises ignorance as
intelligence.
>
> Tell me, why every state based on a form of socialism has been an
> oppressive dictatorship?
I don't recall Saskatchewan having an oppressive dictatorship under Premiers Douglas,
Lloyd, Blakeney or Romanow? I don't recall Sweden being oppressive.
Then again taking in account your warped sense of freedom, you believe it is best to let
wrongs not to be corrected out a chicken shit sense of possibility stepping on somebody's
toes. Hhhmmm...I guess one could say that you extreme reluctance to stand up against what
is wrong for this fear to getting in somebody's way is just you odd type of right-wing
political correctness.
Tim is politicall correct. I am disappointed in you.
>
>
> |> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
> |
> |Very true.
> |
> |The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
> |
>
> An exception being Katherine the Great.
So, what's your point?
>
>
> |> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
> |
> |And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
> |Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
>
> I never claimed that exclusivity.
Thank-you.
>
>
> |> Anyone who
> |> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
> |> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
> |> among those men.
> |
> |Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
> |Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
> |during that time.
>
> They'd come in the middle of the night, take the fathers, and if not
> shoot them, send them to the prison camps. Most of them never survived
> the trip.
I was once told a story by friend who had a relative executed simply because he was looking
for wood to put in the stove. You and I are well aware of the crimes committed during
Stalin's reign of terror.
>
>
> |> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
> |> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
> |> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
> |
> |All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
> |family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
> |family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
>
> My family was the opposite, the fled to Germany during the war,
> retreating with the German army. They didn't know about the jewish
> holocaust then, they only wanted to get away from their own holocaust.
Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and many other peoples initially saw the
German military and its Axis partners as liberators until they learned they were just as
bloodthristy as Stalin's regime. Exchaniging one genocidal maniac for another ain't much of
a choice.
>
>
> |BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
> |be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
>
> Nestor Machno comes to mind.
I'm not that fimiliar with the Russian Civil War. Who was this Machno?
>
snip.
>
> |>
> |> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
> |> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
> |
> |Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
> |an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
>
> Well, self-titled dogooders. I don't think anything they did was good.
> I guess I should have put quotes around the term.
From a historical perspective I am not that surprised the Bolsheviks were so successful
given the reign of terror of the Czarist regime. Anything was preferable to the way the
Russian and the other peoples in the Empire were being treated. I look at Russia today and
see an opportunity for history to repeat itself. Whether it's the return of the Communists
or the acession of a Nazi/Fascist/far-right regime remains to be seen.
>
>
> |> |Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
> |> |government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
> |> |have lower voter turnouts.
> |>
> |> Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
> |
> |Gees in my experiences in the party I have come accross many Mennonites that belong to
> |the party or are supportive of the NDP. Still I would agree that in southern Manitoba
> |the general population doesn't vote NDP.
> |
> |Hell, a while back they would not have voted for the Tories, but rather for the Social
> |Credit Party.
>
> Well, everybody knows the Tories could run a Yellow Dog in
> Winkler/Morden and win. Maybe the NDP should try to split the vote.
Tis why the constituencies south of the Trans-Canada highway are referred to as Yellow Dog
country. I really don't understand the repeative support the Tories get in elections
because many of their supporters whine, bitch and complain rentlessly about the Tories in
between elections.
Which leads me to to conclude that if the people are going to uncleart ideas when it comes
to choosing their governments then they will stick themselves with governments they
disapprove of.
Glen
"Every unjustly treated man, every defenceless woman, every neglected child has a neighbor
somewhere. Am I that neighbor?"
J.S. Woodsworth.
r3d3...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 20 Feb 99 07:37:52 GMT, r3d3...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >nevins@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca wrote:
: >
: >: Could someone please repost the the jpg as reply so that I may see it.
: >
: >--
: >What are you into now, nevins?
: >--
: >
: I realize anewbie such as your self may need help following threads
: sometimes so I will try to help you along...
--
fu...@likme.com Special K at Pangea.CA,
Inc.
This only took me a couple minutes
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:20:47 -0600, "Shaun" <r...@plc.mb.ca> wrote:
>I hope you didn't spend all the time making this pic.. what are you
>doing with pictures of mens bare ass? :)
>
>Shaun
--
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
And so?
Ptim
And of course you have every right to do just that, and no more. Just
as people are, as I said, allowed to make stupid decisions based on
completely irrational criteria.
|
|
|
|>
|
|snip.
|
|>
|> |> Well Glen, most mennonites will not be socialist, and I'll tell you
|> |> why.
|> |>
|> |> Stalin.
|> |
|> |Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
|> |your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
|>
|> Stalin is socialism drawn to its logical conclusion.
|
|Bullshit.
|
|I suspect you are buying into a type of historical revisionism that disguises ignorance as
|intelligence.
I suspect you've never studied socialism. Regulate one part of the
economy, you're soon forced to regulate another. Then another. It soon
leads to complete economic regulation, or even worse, complete
nationalization of the entire economy. Then, to prevent the economy
from becoming re-privatized, a one party state is formed to protect
the nationalized economy, which by that point has already decayed and
there are people starving in the street while the wealthy are
retreating to their Dachas. Then, to prevent a rebellion, anyone who
may pose a threat is "removed."
That's what happened in Russia. It didn't even take 10 years.
Let's not let history repeat itself, Glen.
|> Tell me, why every state based on a form of socialism has been an
|> oppressive dictatorship?
|
|I don't recall Saskatchewan having an oppressive dictatorship under Premiers Douglas,
|Lloyd, Blakeney or Romanow? I don't recall Sweden being oppressive.
Provincial Premiers hardly count. I'm thinking on a bigger scale,
something you haven't tried. China, S. Korea, N. Vietnam, Cambodia,
Cuba, a vast number of African Nations.
Even under Gorbachev, the USSR still used prison camps.
And then there was the attempt by a small group of socialists who also
wanted freedom. They all died. I'm speaking of course about the
Kronstad Uprising.
|Then again taking in account your warped sense of freedom, you believe it is best to let
|wrongs not to be corrected out a chicken shit sense of possibility stepping on somebody's
|toes. Hhhmmm...I guess one could say that you extreme reluctance to stand up against what
|is wrong for this fear to getting in somebody's way is just you odd type of right-wing
|political correctness.
|
|Tim is politicall correct. I am disappointed in you.
I never said you couldn't voice your opinion. What I am opposed to is
trying to force people to behave a certain way.
|> |> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
|> |
|> |Very true.
|> |
|> |The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
|> |
|>
|> An exception being Katherine the Great.
|
|So, what's your point?
So she wasn't a Czar that was mean to the Mennonites. Stop making rash
generalizations.
|> |> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
|> |
|> |And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
|> |Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
|>
|> I never claimed that exclusivity.
|
|Thank-you.
Not a problem. I try to be honest and stick to the facts.
|> |> Anyone who
|> |> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
|> |> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
|> |> among those men.
|> |
|> |Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
|> |Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
|> |during that time.
|>
|> They'd come in the middle of the night, take the fathers, and if not
|> shoot them, send them to the prison camps. Most of them never survived
|> the trip.
|
|I was once told a story by friend who had a relative executed simply because he was looking
|for wood to put in the stove. You and I are well aware of the crimes committed during
|Stalin's reign of terror.
Yes. A lot of similar incidents continued until the KGB was disbanded
as well.
|> |> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
|> |> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
|> |> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
|> |
|> |All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
|> |family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
|> |family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
|>
|> My family was the opposite, the fled to Germany during the war,
|> retreating with the German army. They didn't know about the jewish
|> holocaust then, they only wanted to get away from their own holocaust.
|
|Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and many other peoples initially saw the
|German military and its Axis partners as liberators until they learned they were just as
|bloodthristy as Stalin's regime. Exchaniging one genocidal maniac for another ain't much of
|a choice.
A good movie you should try to get a hold of, that was locally
produced, is "And When They shall Ask..." It tells the story of
mennonites fleeing the Ukraine.
|> |BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
|> |be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
|>
|> Nestor Machno comes to mind.
|
|I'm not that fimiliar with the Russian Civil War. Who was this Machno?
Machno was one of Mikhail Bakunin's anarchistic followers. His small
band went through many Mennonite villages and killed people pretty
much at random, the usual revolutionary raping and pillaging. There's
not much written on him, but I have a biography on him. You can borrow
it if you like, but it's in German.
|snip.
|
|>
|> |>
|> |> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
|> |> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
|> |
|> |Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
|> |an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
|>
|> Well, self-titled dogooders. I don't think anything they did was good.
|> I guess I should have put quotes around the term.
|
|From a historical perspective I am not that surprised the Bolsheviks were so successful
|given the reign of terror of the Czarist regime. Anything was preferable to the way the
|Russian and the other peoples in the Empire were being treated. I look at Russia today and
|see an opportunity for history to repeat itself. Whether it's the return of the Communists
|or the acession of a Nazi/Fascist/far-right regime remains to be seen.
Neither is good. Right now Russia is primarily controlled by the black
market and mafias. The switch from communism to a so-called "free
market" was too fast. Many Russians want the communist system back,
not because it was a lot better, but at least they had some food.
|> |> |Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
|> |> |government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
|> |> |have lower voter turnouts.
|> |>
|> |> Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
|> |
|> |Gees in my experiences in the party I have come accross many Mennonites that belong to
|> |the party or are supportive of the NDP. Still I would agree that in southern Manitoba
|> |the general population doesn't vote NDP.
|> |
|> |Hell, a while back they would not have voted for the Tories, but rather for the Social
|> |Credit Party.
|>
|> Well, everybody knows the Tories could run a Yellow Dog in
|> Winkler/Morden and win. Maybe the NDP should try to split the vote.
|
|Tis why the constituencies south of the Trans-Canada highway are referred to as Yellow Dog
|country. I really don't understand the repeative support the Tories get in elections
|because many of their supporters whine, bitch and complain rentlessly about the Tories in
|between elections.
|
|Which leads me to to conclude that if the people are going to uncleart ideas when it comes
|to choosing their governments then they will stick themselves with governments they
|disapprove of.
Most of the time, people vote for the "lesser evil", because no party
provides everything everyone wants. The platforms that candidates run
on are packages, and the way most people vote is to look at the
package, and find out which candidate supports the more important
issues (in the opinion of the individual voter), and will disregard
the lesser (again, in the opinion of the individual voter), regardless
on if they agree or disagree with the candiadate.
Glen Hallick
> On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:46:38 -0600, Glen Hallick
> <ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
>
>
snip.
>
> |
> |I would suggest to you Tim that you re-study your personal concept of freedom as it is
> |becoming clear to me you have yet to think it out completely. If you honestly believe in
> |freedom then you should accept the fact that I have the freedom to criticize others for
> |their ignorant judgements.
> |
> |My solution is my post. I see something that I consider as wrong I state my case.
>
> And of course you have every right to do just that, and no more.
Not necessarily no more. It would depend on the circumstances.
> Just
> as people are, as I said, allowed to make stupid decisions based on
> completely irrational criteria.
And I have little problem with you doing that in your posts.
snip.
>
> |> |
> |> |Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
> |> |your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
> |>
> |> Stalin is socialism drawn to its logical conclusion.
> |
> |Bullshit.
> |
> |I suspect you are buying into a type of historical revisionism that disguises ignorance as
> |intelligence.
>
> I suspect you've never studied socialism.
Yes I have.
> Regulate one part of the
> economy, you're soon forced to regulate another. Then another. It soon
> leads to complete economic regulation, or even worse, complete
> nationalization of the entire economy.
I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
> Then, to prevent the economy
> from becoming re-privatized, a one party state is formed to protect
> the nationalized economy, which by that point has already decayed and
> there are people starving in the street while the wealthy are
> retreating to their Dachas. Then, to prevent a rebellion, anyone who
> may pose a threat is "removed."
Your understanding of history is warped because of you ignorant and fanatical painting of all
leftists with the same brush.
>
>
> That's what happened in Russia. It didn't even take 10 years.
Your point?
>
>
> Let's not let history repeat itself, Glen.
Of course not. The last thing the world needs is to revert back to the laissez faire policies of
the late 19th century. Such unregulated capitalism will inevitbaly lead to mass bloodshed. I
think WW1 serves as a dandy example.
>
>
> |> Tell me, why every state based on a form of socialism has been an
> |> oppressive dictatorship?
> |
> |I don't recall Saskatchewan having an oppressive dictatorship under Premiers Douglas,
> |Lloyd, Blakeney or Romanow? I don't recall Sweden being oppressive.
>
> Provincial Premiers hardly count.
Hhhmm...I produce some excellent example and you "change the rules".
> I'm thinking on a bigger scale,
> something you haven't tried. China, S. Korea, N. Vietnam, Cambodia,
> Cuba, a vast number of African Nations.
> Even under Gorbachev, the USSR still used prison camps.
The capitalist countries of this planet have lost resorted to similar draconian measures to
protect the vested interests.
If you deem the above countries you mention as being socialist then in keeping with your line of
logic many of them were/are also democratic. But I know better that they are bloody
dictatorships.
Real socialism is democratic. It cannot work any other way.
>
>
> And then there was the attempt by a small group of socialists who also
> wanted freedom. They all died. I'm speaking of course about the
> Kronstad Uprising.
>
> |Then again taking in account your warped sense of freedom, you believe it is best to let
> |wrongs not to be corrected out a chicken shit sense of possibility stepping on somebody's
> |toes. Hhhmmm...I guess one could say that you extreme reluctance to stand up against what
> |is wrong for this fear to getting in somebody's way is just you odd type of right-wing
> |political correctness.
> |
> |Tim is politicall correct. I am disappointed in you.
>
> I never said you couldn't voice your opinion. What I am opposed to is
> trying to force people to behave a certain way.
Which is what you are doing.
>
>
> |> |> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
> |> |
> |> |Very true.
> |> |
> |> |The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
> |> |
> |>
> |> An exception being Katherine the Great.
> |
> |So, what's your point?
>
> So she wasn't a Czar that was mean to the Mennonites. Stop making rash
> generalizations.
I don't know much about Czarina Catherine the Great.
>
>
> |> |> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
> |> |
> |> |And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
> |> |Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
> |>
> |> I never claimed that exclusivity.
> |
> |Thank-you.
>
> Not a problem. I try to be honest and stick to the facts.
>
> |> |> Anyone who
> |> |> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
> |> |> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
> |> |> among those men.
> |> |
> |> |Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
> |> |Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
> |> |during that time.
> |>
> |> They'd come in the middle of the night, take the fathers, and if not
> |> shoot them, send them to the prison camps. Most of them never survived
> |> the trip.
> |
> |I was once told a story by friend who had a relative executed simply because he was looking
> |for wood to put in the stove. You and I are well aware of the crimes committed during
> |Stalin's reign of terror.
>
> Yes. A lot of similar incidents continued until the KGB was disbanded
> as well.
Other secret polic organizations carried out simialr tactics.
>
>
> |> |> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
> |> |> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
> |> |> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
> |> |
> |> |All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
> |> |family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
> |> |family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
> |>
> |> My family was the opposite, the fled to Germany during the war,
> |> retreating with the German army. They didn't know about the jewish
> |> holocaust then, they only wanted to get away from their own holocaust.
> |
> |Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and many other peoples initially saw the
> |German military and its Axis partners as liberators until they learned they were just as
> |bloodthristy as Stalin's regime. Exchaniging one genocidal maniac for another ain't much of
> |a choice.
>
> A good movie you should try to get a hold of, that was locally
> produced, is "And When They shall Ask..." It tells the story of
> mennonites fleeing the Ukraine.
Who made it and where can I get it?
>
>
> |> |BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
> |> |be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
> |>
> |> Nestor Machno comes to mind.
> |
> |I'm not that fimiliar with the Russian Civil War. Who was this Machno?
>
> Machno was one of Mikhail Bakunin's anarchistic followers. His small
> band went through many Mennonite villages and killed people pretty
> much at random, the usual revolutionary raping and pillaging. There's
> not much written on him, but I have a biography on him. You can borrow
> it if you like, but it's in German.
Sorry, I made the mistake of not learning German.
>
>
> |snip.
> |
> |>
> |> |>
> |> |> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
> |> |> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
> |> |
> |> |Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
> |> |an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
> |>
> |> Well, self-titled dogooders. I don't think anything they did was good.
> |> I guess I should have put quotes around the term.
> |
> |From a historical perspective I am not that surprised the Bolsheviks were so successful
> |given the reign of terror of the Czarist regime. Anything was preferable to the way the
> |Russian and the other peoples in the Empire were being treated. I look at Russia today and
> |see an opportunity for history to repeat itself. Whether it's the return of the Communists
> |or the acession of a Nazi/Fascist/far-right regime remains to be seen.
>
> Neither is good. Right now Russia is primarily controlled by the black
> market and mafias.
It would seem to me that the totally unregulated economy by the black market and the mafia would
be your Utopia.
> The switch from communism to a so-called "free
> market" was too fast. Many Russians want the communist system back,
> not because it was a lot better, but at least they had some food.
It doesn't matter from system a country changes from there is always turmoil. The only
difference will in what degree.
>
>
> |> |> |Another that would most likely intrigue Tim is the traditional mistrust of
> |> |> |government. Even not to long ago ridings with large Mennonite populations used to
> |> |> |have lower voter turnouts.
> |> |>
> |> |> Another reason you won't see a lot of Mennonites in the NDP.
> |> |
> |> |Gees in my experiences in the party I have come accross many Mennonites that belong to
> |> |the party or are supportive of the NDP. Still I would agree that in southern Manitoba
> |> |the general population doesn't vote NDP.
> |> |
> |> |Hell, a while back they would not have voted for the Tories, but rather for the Social
> |> |Credit Party.
> |>
> |> Well, everybody knows the Tories could run a Yellow Dog in
> |> Winkler/Morden and win. Maybe the NDP should try to split the vote.
> |
> |Tis why the constituencies south of the Trans-Canada highway are referred to as Yellow Dog
> |country. I really don't understand the repeative support the Tories get in elections
> |because many of their supporters whine, bitch and complain rentlessly about the Tories in
> |between elections.
> |
> |Which leads me to to conclude that if the people are going to uncleart ideas when it comes
> |to choosing their governments then they will stick themselves with governments they
> |disapprove of.
>
> Most of the time, people vote for the "lesser evil", because no party
> provides everything everyone wants.
No party can.
> The platforms that candidates run
> on are packages, and the way most people vote is to look at the
> package, and find out which candidate supports the more important
> issues (in the opinion of the individual voter), and will disregard
> the lesser (again, in the opinion of the individual voter), regardless
> on if they agree or disagree with the candiadate.
I could agree with that
Glen
k...@escape.ca
>I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
>which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
>the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
>political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
Communism/Socialism has been repudiated world wide or haven't you
heard?
>
Glen Hallick
> >I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
> >which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
> >the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
> >political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
>
> Communism/Socialism has been repudiated world wide or haven't you
> heard?
>
>
1) There is a world difference between socialism and communism.
2) To buy into the right-wing cliche that socialism has been repudiated is just plain dumb.
Glen
k...@escape.ca
<ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
>k...@escape.ca wrote:
>
>> >I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
>> >which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
>> >the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
>> >political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
>>
>> Communism/Socialism has been repudiated world wide or haven't you
>> heard?
>>
>>
>
>1) There is a world difference between socialism and communism.
That is correct.
>2) To buy into the right-wing cliche that socialism has been repudiated is just plain dumb.
To deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide is
laughable. So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
be in the dark of this fact.
Take consolation Mr. Hallick,there are at least a couple thousand of
you people left in Canada who vote NDP. So you can sit and chant
about the virtues of Socailism to yourselves.
>
>Glen
>
>
>
>
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
>To deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide is
>laughable. So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
>be in the dark of this fact.
>
It is the dawn of a new epoch of mankind. The globalization and reign
of the free markets everywhere! Long live third world sweatshops!
Glen Hallick
> On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:19:09 -0600, Glen Hallick
> <ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
>
> >k...@escape.ca wrote:
> >
> >> >I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
> >> >which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
> >> >the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
> >> >political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
> >>
> >> Communism/Socialism has been repudiated world wide or haven't you
> >> heard?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >1) There is a world difference between socialism and communism.
>
> That is correct.
Well, at least you got something correct.
>
>
> >2) To buy into the right-wing cliche that socialism has been repudiated is just plain dumb.
>
> To deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide is
> laughable.
I do not deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide. What many a right-winger does
all to often is make the erroneous assumption that leftists live in a dream world cutting themselves
off from reality. When in fact leftist policies are derived from the shit your "lovely" globalization
is creating. Ever here of the race to the bottom?
> So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
> be in the dark of this fact.
Look around buddy and you will see that while Canada has never been richer before there is still a
growing amount of poverty.
>
>
> Take consolation Mr. Hallick,there are at least a couple thousand of
> you people left in Canada who vote NDP. So you can sit and chant
> about the virtues of Socailism to yourselves.
What pray tell is so bloody virtuous about globalization?
Globalization is nothing more than the new catch phrase for colonization with the difference being
countries are no longer imposing their will on other peoples but rather tranz-national corporations.
Glen
Glen Hallick
> On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:35:06 GMT, k...@escape.ca wrote:
>
> >To deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide is
> >laughable. So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
> >be in the dark of this fact.
> >
>
> It is the dawn of a new epoch of mankind. The globalization and reign
> of the free markets everywhere! Long live third world sweatshops!
Well said
Glen
k...@escape.ca
>I do not deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide. What many a right-winger does
>all to often is make the erroneous assumption that leftists live in a dream world cutting themselves
>off from reality. When in fact leftist policies are derived from the shit your "lovely" globalization
>is creating. Ever here of the race to the bottom?
At least a glimmer of hope from Mr. Hallick in regards to the free
market. Mr. Pawley and Broadbent have recently come out against the
"new" left and globalization.
Which is it Glen, the new ( somwhat more intelligent) or the old (
Broadbent) NDP that is primitive in its economic policies.?
>
>> So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
>> be in the dark of this fact.
>
>Look around buddy and you will see that while Canada has never been richer before there is still a
>growing amount of poverty.
That happens when the state steals half of Canadians income every
year.
>
>> Take consolation Mr. Hallick,there are at least a couple thousand of
>> you people left in Canada who vote NDP. So you can sit and chant
>> about the virtues of Socailism to yourselves.
>
>What pray tell is so bloody virtuous about globalization?
Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
access to the worlds market.
>Globalization is nothing more than the new catch phrase for colonization with the difference being
>countries are no longer imposing their will on other peoples but rather tranz-national corporations.
Do you really wonder why the NDP is where it is nationally?
I would like an honest answer.
>
>Glen
>
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
>
>Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
>access to the worlds market.
>
Exploitation of third world workers, finite quantity of resources
which cannot sustain unlimited and unending growth, the continual rape
of the environment which will bring about the ultimate end of mankind.
The global economy is the creed of greed and the precipice of
destruction for ever and ever amen.
Cy Coe
instruments as the low-income cutoff. A market economy does not dispense its
rewards equally, nor should it be expected to. Market economies are, however,
far better at creating wealth and prosperity than their planned counterparts.
In a mixed economy such as ours, it is the legitimate place of government to
guarantee each of its citizens a basic standard of living. Beyond that,
however, individuals should take responsibility for their own lives and
welfare. Middle class amenities are not "rights" by any stretch of the
imagination, nor is it a right for people who able to work not to do so.
Governments are not and should not be in the business of ensuring equality of
outcomes. In other words, equality does not equal equity.
The left in Canada may be in a bit of a slump these days, but take heart. As
long as there is envy unmarried to ambition, there will be socialism.
In article <36D48893...@gatewest.net>,
Glen Hallick <ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
>
> I do not deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide. What
many a right-winger does
> all to often is make the erroneous assumption that leftists live in a dream
world cutting themselves
> off from reality. When in fact leftist policies are derived from the shit
your "lovely" globalization
> is creating. Ever here of the race to the bottom?
>
> > So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
> > be in the dark of this fact.
>
> Look around buddy and you will see that while Canada has never been richer
before there is still a
> growing amount of poverty.
>
> >
> >
> > Take consolation Mr. Hallick,there are at least a couple thousand of
> > you people left in Canada who vote NDP. So you can sit and chant
> > about the virtues of Socailism to yourselves.
>
> What pray tell is so bloody virtuous about globalization?
>
> Globalization is nothing more than the new catch phrase for colonization with
the difference being
> countries are no longer imposing their will on other peoples but rather tranz-
national corporations.
>
> Glen
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Glen Hallick
> >I do not deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide. What many a right-winger does
> >all to often is make the erroneous assumption that leftists live in a dream world cutting themselves
> >off from reality. When in fact leftist policies are derived from the shit your "lovely" globalization
> >is creating. Ever here of the race to the bottom?
>
> At least a glimmer of hope from Mr. Hallick in regards to the free
> market. Mr. Pawley and Broadbent have recently come out against the
> "new" left and globalization.
Good for Howard Pawley and Ed Broadbent. This "Third Way" as Corporate Arse-kisser Tony Blair calls it is
nothing more than the two-faced brand of politics long practiced by the Liberal Party here in Canada.
>
>
> Which is it Glen, the new ( somwhat more intelligent) or the old (
> Broadbent) NDP that is primitive in its economic policies.?
I hate to answer a question with a question but you leave me no choice. Just what is so new about the
right-wing policies being advocated today?
>
>
> >
> >> So it will come as no surprise that a NDP supporter would
> >> be in the dark of this fact.
> >
> >Look around buddy and you will see that while Canada has never been richer before there is still a
> >growing amount of poverty.
>
> That happens when the state steals half of Canadians income every
> year.
Meanwhile the federal government has not collected how much in corporate taxes? And these corporations
still have the gall to claim they are being overtaxed?
>
> >
> >> Take consolation Mr. Hallick,there are at least a couple thousand of
> >> you people left in Canada who vote NDP. So you can sit and chant
> >> about the virtues of Socailism to yourselves.
> >
> >What pray tell is so bloody virtuous about globalization?
>
> Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
> access to the worlds market.
Egads I would hate to see what kind of orgasm you would have overlooking a 3rd world sweat shop using
child labour.
>
>
> >Globalization is nothing more than the new catch phrase for colonization with the difference being
> >countries are no longer imposing their will on other peoples but rather tranz-national corporations.
>
> Do you really wonder why the NDP is where it is nationally?
> I would like an honest answer.
Jesus Christ don't yah know there are more New Democrats in the H of C than Tories?
The NDP has seats in every provincial and territorial jursidiction except for Quebec and the NWT. Can't
say the same for the Tories or Reform.
Is the federal NDP low in the polls and has seen better days? Of course. Is the party on the verge of
coming apart? Hardly.
Glen
Glen Hallick
> On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:45:21 GMT, k...@escape.ca wrote:
>
> >
> >Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
> >access to the worlds market.
> >
>
> Exploitation of third world workers, finite quantity of resources
> which cannot sustain unlimited and unending growth, the continual rape
> of the environment which will bring about the ultimate end of mankind.
> The global economy is the creed of greed and the precipice of
> destruction for ever and ever amen.
I suspect kdo hasn't the courage to reply to your post.
Glen
Chris
>
> To deny Globalization and the reign of the free market worldwide is
> laughable.
Not so laughable to the many people who opposed and eventually defeated
the MAI.
Your vaunted Globalization is not so prevalent yet. Hopefully, it never
will be.
Chris
--
Computer Science II, University of Manitoba
Putting the 'cieomtecn upscer' in 'Computer Science' since 1997.
Chris
>
>
> The left in Canada may be in a bit of a slump these days, but take heart. As
> long as there is envy unmarried to ambition, there will be socialism.
Socialism being the most ambitious system of all, looking to improve the
situation of the whole society as opposed to a greedy few.
I think what boggles most rightoids is the fact that not everyone places
money above all else, and some people actually care about their society
as more than a means of generating income.
And don't even get me started on the complete idiocy rightoids seem to
have when talking about the eonvironment. I had the most unpleasant
experience or hearing a former green peace member being lauded for
having a so called rational change of mind, denouncing the
environmentalist movement as a whole and even approving of clear cut
logging in some cases.
I'll dredge up the name if anyone wants.
anyways,
k...@escape.ca
>Exploitation of third world workers, finite quantity of resources
>which cannot sustain unlimited and unending growth, the continual rape
>of the environment which will bring about the ultimate end of mankind.
>The global economy is the creed of greed and the precipice of
>destruction for ever and ever amen.
>
This is a reality and it is world wide.
k...@escape.ca
>> At least a glimmer of hope from Mr. Hallick in regards to the free
>> market. Mr. Pawley and Broadbent have recently come out against the
>> "new" left and globalization.
>
>Good for Howard Pawley and Ed Broadbent. This "Third Way" as Corporate Arse-kisser Tony Blair calls it is
>nothing more than the two-faced brand of politics long practiced by the Liberal Party here in Canada.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Which is it Glen, the new ( somwhat more intelligent) or the old (
>> Broadbent) NDP that is primitive in its economic policies.?
>
>I hate to answer a question with a question but you leave me no choice. Just what is so new about the
>right-wing policies being advocated today?
>
>
>>
>> That happens when the state steals half of Canadians income every
>> year.
>
>Meanwhile the federal government has not collected how much in corporate taxes? And these corporations
>still have the gall to claim they are being overtaxed?
The Banks have paid BILLIONS of dollars in taxes....how many more
BILLIONS do you want to steal?
Before even mention corporations...stop govt. from stealing half of
Canadians money.
>
>> Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
>> access to the worlds market.
>
>Egads I would hate to see what kind of orgasm you would have overlooking a 3rd world sweat shop using
>child labour.
Ok.....
>> Do you really wonder why the NDP is where it is nationally?
>> I would like an honest answer.
>
>Jesus Christ don't yah know there are more New Democrats in the H of C than Tories?
Does that pertain to the NDP's popularity nationally. You are as
buried as Alexa is and that is bad.
>The NDP has seats in every provincial and territorial jursidiction except for Quebec and the NWT. Can't
>say the same for the Tories or Reform.
Your party nationally is around 12% and I guess those numbers give you
a sense of pride about the left in Canada.
To the people of Canada the NDP is not an alternative.
>Is the federal NDP low in the polls and has seen better days? Of course. Is the party on the verge of
>coming apart? Hardly.
At least your are recognizing the math of the NDP's support in Canada.
That is the most I could hope for and I hope with that knowlede you
will adjust your posts accordingly.
>Glen
>
>
k...@escape.ca
wrote:
>Cy Coe wrote:
>>
>>
>> The left in Canada may be in a bit of a slump these days, but take heart. As
>> long as there is envy unmarried to ambition, there will be socialism.
>
>Socialism being the most ambitious system of all, looking to improve the
>situation of the whole society as opposed to a greedy few.
>I think what boggles most rightoids is the fact that not everyone places
>money above all else, and some people actually care about their society
>as more than a means of generating income.
What bothers people on the right is that socialism and
Communism have been repudiated all over the world and here in
Canada. Yet a petulant group of people continue to advocate
socialism. The sheer numbers of federal NDP support should clue
in people to the relevance of the NDP's ideology.
Cy Coe
Implementing an ideology that runs counter to human nature is indeed an
ambitious project. I was referring to the "market" (forgive my swearing) for
this particular ideology as being unambitous.
To me, the difference between right and left can be described like this. The
right believes that people are basically okay, and that, left to their own
devices and constrained by the laws of the land, they will make decisions that
benefit themselves, and thus society. The left believes that individuals are
basically flawed - greedy, intolerant, selfish, uncultured, agressive, overly
competitive, and that they must be "fixed" through intervention by the state.
That way, a society full of caring, compassionate, cultured, tolerant and
unselfish people can be engineered, and all will be well.
As for environmentalism, that is an issue that doesn't fall as neatly into
the left/right model as one might assume. Environmental degradation is
everyone's business, and concern. Free marketers simply look at the issue
differently than their counterparts on the left. Even the most conservative
economist would recognize the concept of "externalities", or unaccounted
costs to society generated by economic activity, such as damage to the
environment by pollution.
Leftists jumped on the environmental bandwagon because they saw it as yet
another angle from which to attack corporations. Not everyone belongs to an
oppressed minority group or a labour union, but everyone is affected by the
environment. So the left found an issue that had a broad potential appeal.
Planned economies such as the old Soviet Union were equally preoccupied with
growth and industrialzation, so no one political ideology has a monopoly on
environmental damage.
Cy
In article <36D91E...@cc.umanitoba.ca>,
umla...@cc.umanitoba.ca wrote:
> Cy Coe wrote:
> >
> >
> > The left in Canada may be in a bit of a slump these days, but take heart.
As
> > long as there is envy unmarried to ambition, there will be socialism.
>
> Socialism being the most ambitious system of all, looking to improve the
> situation of the whole society as opposed to a greedy few.
> I think what boggles most rightoids is the fact that not everyone places
> money above all else, and some people actually care about their society
> as more than a means of generating income.
>
> And don't even get me started on the complete idiocy rightoids seem to
> have when talking about the eonvironment. I had the most unpleasant
> experience or hearing a former green peace member being lauded for
> having a so called rational change of mind, denouncing the
> environmentalist movement as a whole and even approving of clear cut
> logging in some cases.
> I'll dredge up the name if anyone wants.
>
> anyways,
>
> Chris
> --
> Computer Science II, University of Manitoba
> Putting the 'cieomtecn upscer' in 'Computer Science' since 1997.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Glen Hallick
> >> At least a glimmer of hope from Mr. Hallick in regards to the free
> >> market. Mr. Pawley and Broadbent have recently come out against the
> >> "new" left and globalization.
> >
> >Good for Howard Pawley and Ed Broadbent. This "Third Way" as Corporate Arse-kisser Tony Blair calls it is
> >nothing more than the two-faced brand of politics long practiced by the Liberal Party here in Canada.
> >
> Oh...so there is no hope for you Mr. Hallick...
You seemed troubled that I am refusing to jump on your bangwagon to mereily celebrate the increased amounts of
poverty that exist not only in Manitoba or Canada, but worldwide.
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Which is it Glen, the new ( somwhat more intelligent) or the old (
> >> Broadbent) NDP that is primitive in its economic policies.?
> >
> >I hate to answer a question with a question but you leave me no choice. Just what is so new about the
> >right-wing policies being advocated today?
> >
> Please answer the question I have asked.
Well first you need to be corrected on the assinine assumptions you have made. The "New Left" of the 1990's is
a sham. Supposed leaders of the Left like Britain's Tony Blair amount to nothing more than their party's
equivalents of duplicitous Liberals. In short they talk the talk during an election but once elected they hack
and slash so much that Ralph Klein gets a hard on.
Perhaps if you attempted to study the economic policies the NDP have long advocated you would see the obvious
that such are far more beneficial to society as a whole. J.M. Keyes wasn't a leftist, but his economic
theories have proven to be very workable.
>
> >
> >>
> >> That happens when the state steals half of Canadians income every
> >> year.
> >
> >Meanwhile the federal government has not collected how much in corporate taxes? And these corporations
> >still have the gall to claim they are being overtaxed?
>
> The Banks have paid BILLIONS of dollars in taxes....how many more
> BILLIONS do you want to steal?
Is the corporate community in your mind just confined to the banks?
It was not very long ago that 1 bank teller was paying more in income than the bank she was working for.
When it comes to collected corporate taxes, I am not referring to creating new taxes but rather the taxes that
already exist and the government does not collect the tax dollars. Last time I heard the amount of unpaid
corporate taxes in Canada thanks to the current Liberal government is around $70 billion.
>
>
> Before even mention corporations...stop govt. from stealing half of
> Canadians money.
Canada does not need cross-the-board tax cuts. Why give a tax cut to a large corporation that is not even
paying its tax bill now? What is needed is tax fairness.
Over the last 30 years corporate taxation has dropped from accounting for just over 20% of the government's
tax revenue to less than 5%. Meanwhile taxes taken from people like you and I has risen from 30% to just over
50%.
I say give tax cuts to low to middle income earners and freeze taxes for high income earners. Small and medium
sized business should also get cuts while the big corporations need to be coughing their fair share.
>
>
> >
> >> Access to cheap products and commoditys from all over the world and
> >> access to the worlds market.
> >
> >Egads I would hate to see what kind of orgasm you would have overlooking a 3rd world sweat shop using
> >child labour.
>
> Ok.....
I guess you gotta get your kicks some how.
>
>
> >> Do you really wonder why the NDP is where it is nationally?
> >> I would like an honest answer.
> >
> >Jesus Christ don't yah know there are more New Democrats in the H of C than Tories?
>
> Does that pertain to the NDP's popularity nationally. You are as
> buried as Alexa is and that is bad.
The NDP's support is between 9-7%. So what's your point? That people should change their political principles
on the basis of what some goddamn poll says?
If that's your idea then maybe you're not a Tory or a Reformer but rather just another unprincipled Liberal.
>
>
> >The NDP has seats in every provincial and territorial jursidiction except for Quebec and the NWT. Can't
> >say the same for the Tories or Reform.
>
> Your party nationally is around 12% and I guess those numbers give you
> a sense of pride about the left in Canada.
The NDP has been much higher, such as in the low to mid 40's in the mid 1980's. The CCF reached similar
heights in the years immediately after WW2.
>
> To the people of Canada the NDP is not an alternative.
Well 2 NDP candidates were recently elected to the House Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador. The NDP is the
official opposition in Nova Scotia.
>
>
> >Is the federal NDP low in the polls and has seen better days? Of course. Is the party on the verge of
> >coming apart? Hardly.
>
> At least your are recognizing the math of the NDP's support in Canada.
> That is the most I could hope for and I hope with that knowlede you
> will adjust your posts accordingly.
I prefer to be principled when comes to politics and not let my beliefs fluctuate with a goddamn opinion poll
which is what you seem to be adovcating.
BTW, when is a Progressive Conservative not a Progressive Conservative in Manitoba? When there is an election.
They all join the "Filmon Team".
Glen
nev...@*anti-klik*ecn.ab.ca
What I feel is irrelevant to the issue. How do you justify exploiting
third world workers in the name of global economy? Sustained growth
cannot continue indefinitely with only finite resources. What of
your economic utopia once the resources are gone?
Denny Oxelgren
>>If you honestly feel that way you must really feel bad.
>>This is a reality and it is world wide.
>
>What I feel is irrelevant to the issue. How do you justify exploiting
>third world workers in the name of global economy? Sustained growth
>cannot continue indefinitely with only finite resources. What of
>your economic utopia once the resources are gone?
Before they had NO jobs...now they have jobs...I thought the left
represented workers?
Growth in our economy comes from the servic sector and we are moving
away from traditional based economy everyday.
Given the reign of the free market worldwide...what is your
allternative?
Denny
Duane Smith
wrote:
>
>
>Before they had NO jobs...now they have jobs...I thought the left
>represented workers?
The term 'left' is too broad to attribute specific characteristics.
There have been regimes that were labeled 'left' but were only
oligarchies or dictatorships and didn't represent anyone but the thugs
in charge. It would be preferable to foster employment in the local
economies of the third world that would last beyond the whims of our
consumption oriented life style.
Suffice it to say that the NDP, whom which you seem bent on bashing,
defend those who cannot defend themselves in the face of uncaring
government and the autocratic industry.
>Growth in our economy comes from the servic sector and we are moving
>away from traditional based economy everyday.
And your point is?
This sounds like a line lifted from a text book minus the cervix part.
>Given the reign of the free market worldwide...what is your
>allternative?
Something that does not perpetuate the rich getting richer at the
expense of the poor becoming more poor. The MAI is an excellent
example, king pins of greed setting up rules of conduct at the expense
of those already in the dumpster. Your middle class will slowly
disappear even in our wealthy countries and all that will be left is
contemporary version of nineteenth century industrial revolution. It
is freight train out of control. It's a wonderful thing to tout the
benefits of modern economics but it's most feverent supporters
do not look beyond the horizon to see the type of world that will be
left in it's wake.
Ptim
<ghal...@gatewest.net> enlightened the world with:
|snip.
|
|> |I would suggest to you Tim that you re-study your personal concept of freedom as it is
|> |becoming clear to me you have yet to think it out completely. If you honestly believe in
|> |freedom then you should accept the fact that I have the freedom to criticize others for
|> |their ignorant judgements.
|> |
|> |My solution is my post. I see something that I consider as wrong I state my case.
|>
|> And of course you have every right to do just that, and no more.
|
|Not necessarily no more. It would depend on the circumstances.
So you'd have no problem impeding an adult from making their own
decision?
|> Just
|> as people are, as I said, allowed to make stupid decisions based on
|> completely irrational criteria.
|
|And I have little problem with you doing that in your posts.
|
|snip.
|
|>
|> |> |
|> |> |Tim, to paint all Leftists with the same brush is extremely ignorant and dishonest on
|> |> |your part. Try adding some depth to your analysis.
|> |>
|> |> Stalin is socialism drawn to its logical conclusion.
|> |
|> |Bullshit.
|> |
|> |I suspect you are buying into a type of historical revisionism that disguises ignorance as
|> |intelligence.
|>
|> I suspect you've never studied socialism.
|
|Yes I have.
I still don't think you have. Look at what I said about regulation.
One act of government intervention inevitably leads to another, which
will lead to another. Its basic economics, Glen.
An example of the consequences of government interference is in order.
For example, lets say the government takes it upon itself to fix the
price of a certain good at a different level from what hte unhampered
market would have set.
When prices are formed by a free, unhampered market, or at the very
least without interference from the state, the costs of production are
covered by the proceeds. If a lower price is set by government, the
proceeds will fall short of the costs. Manufactureres and sellers
will, therefore, unless the storage of the goods involved would cause
them to deteriorate rapidly in value, withhold their merchandise from
the market in hope hte order will soon be rescinded. If the state does
not want the goods concerned to disappear altogether from the market
as a resul of their interference, they can not limit themselves to
fixing the price. FURTHER intervention is required. They must decree
that all stock on hand be sold at the prescribed price.
But this is not enough. At the price determined on the unhampered
market, supply and demand would have coincided. now, because the price
was fixed lower by state decree, the demand has increased while the
supply has remained unchanged. Therefore, part of the demand will
remain unsatiated. The mechanism of the market to equalize supply and
demand no longer operates. This leaves people who were willing to buy
the product at the state decreed price without the product.
If the government wishes to avoid such a concequence of its
intervention, guess what? It must add another intervention! Rationing.
A governmental regulation must now determine how much of a commodity
may be supplied to each individual.
But what if the product on hand at the time of the price fix has been
sold off? We have a more difficult problem now. Since production is no
longer profitable at the government price, it will be reduced or
entirely suspended. If the government wishes production of the item to
continue, it must somehow comple the manufacturers to produce, and, to
this end, it must also fix the prices of raw materials and half-
finished goods and the wages of labour. This cannot be limited to only
the few branches of production that the authorities wish to regulate
because they deem their products important. They must encompass *ALL*
branches of production, *ALL* commodities, and *ALL* wages. For if
some branches of production were left free, capital and labour would
flow into those, and the government would fail to attain the goal that
it wished to achieve by its first act of intervention.
Also note, that before the price controls werer instituted, the
commodity in question was, in the opinion of the government, too
expensive; now it disappears from the market entirely. This is the
opposite result the government first hoped to achieve. From the
government's perspective, the absence of the good, or the
impossibility of securing it, must appear as the far greater evil. So
in this sense the intervention of the authorities is futile and
contrary to the purpose that it was intended to serve.
Here's the progression: Price fixed at a below market level,
compulsorary sale measures under enforced rationing, price ceilings on
goods of higher order, wage controls , and ultimately, compulsory
labour for entrepreneurs and workers. And these regulations must
encompass all the branches of production. So the choice is clear,
either no interference in the free market, or to delegate the entire
management of production and distribution to the government. Either
capitalism or socialism.
|> Regulate one part of the
|> economy, you're soon forced to regulate another. Then another. It soon
|> leads to complete economic regulation, or even worse, complete
|> nationalization of the entire economy.
|
|I have no problem in a governemnt regulating an economy as to curb the excesses of capitalism
|which itself is based on greed. If the economy remains unregulated then huge disparities among
|the population will occur with the extremely wealthy few having the by far the bulk of the
|political power. To you that is freedom and that is right. Such makes me puke.
Capitalism is win-win. If I want to purchase a product, and you want
to sell it to me, and you make a profit on that sale, and the amount
you charge is reasonable to me, I give you money, and we both win.
If firm A wants to hire worker B, and worker B is receiving a market
set wage for her position and skills, then firm A wins and worker B
wins. firm A gets the productivity of worker B, and worker B has a
job. Win-win.
|> Then, to prevent the economy
|> from becoming re-privatized, a one party state is formed to protect
|> the nationalized economy, which by that point has already decayed and
|> there are people starving in the street while the wealthy are
|> retreating to their Dachas. Then, to prevent a rebellion, anyone who
|> may pose a threat is "removed."
|
|Your understanding of history is warped because of you ignorant and fanatical painting of all
|leftists with the same brush.
Pot-kettle-black.
Terms like 'rightoids' and the like from your keyboard don't give you
the authority to tell anyone else not to paint everyone with the same
brush.
|> That's what happened in Russia. It didn't even take 10 years.
|
|Your point?
It doesn't take very long for Socialism to become a dictatorship. Even
the USSR was democratic.
|> Let's not let history repeat itself, Glen.
|
|Of course not. The last thing the world needs is to revert back to the laissez faire policies of
|the late 19th century. Such unregulated capitalism will inevitbaly lead to mass bloodshed. I
|think WW1 serves as a dandy example.
Brush up on history, Glen.
In 1833, when the government of England first started subsidizing
schools, 2/3s of the youth of the working class were already literate,
and the school population had doubled in the last decade, even though
government had deliberately hindered the spread of literacy to the
'lower orders' because it feared the consequences of printed
propaganda.
By 1870, when education became free and compulsory, nearly all young
people were already literate. Their literacy had been achieved in
schools that charged fees, including the inexpensive "dames' schools."
Real bloodshed, Glen.
And World War I was caused by nationalism.
|> |> Tell me, why every state based on a form of socialism has been an
|> |> oppressive dictatorship?
|> |
|> |I don't recall Saskatchewan having an oppressive dictatorship under Premiers Douglas,
|> |Lloyd, Blakeney or Romanow? I don't recall Sweden being oppressive.
|>
|> Provincial Premiers hardly count.
|
|Hhhmm...I produce some excellent example and you "change the rules".
I said every state. Most people would have interpreted that as
'nation' or 'country.'
|> I'm thinking on a bigger scale,
|> something you haven't tried. China, S. Korea, N. Vietnam, Cambodia,
|> Cuba, a vast number of African Nations.
|> Even under Gorbachev, the USSR still used prison camps.
|
|The capitalist countries of this planet have lost resorted to similar draconian measures to
|protect the vested interests.
The vested interests of the government. Yes.
|If you deem the above countries you mention as being socialist then in keeping with your line of
|logic many of them were/are also democratic. But I know better that they are bloody
|dictatorships.
|
|Real socialism is democratic. It cannot work any other way.
Like in the USSR. The USSR had democratic elections (99.95% of all
population DID actually vote) for all the electable officials in
Soviets, that were indeed controlling the life in USSR. The CPSU
(Communist Party of Soviet Union), BTW, was providing the control of
Soviets through the ELECTED, not assigned communists (By-laws of
CPSU).
|> And then there was the attempt by a small group of socialists who also
|> wanted freedom. They all died. I'm speaking of course about the
|> Kronstad Uprising.
|
|>
|> |Then again taking in account your warped sense of freedom, you believe it is best to let
|> |wrongs not to be corrected out a chicken shit sense of possibility stepping on somebody's
|> |toes. Hhhmmm...I guess one could say that you extreme reluctance to stand up against what
|> |is wrong for this fear to getting in somebody's way is just you odd type of right-wing
|> |political correctness.
|> |
|> |Tim is politicall correct. I am disappointed in you.
|>
|> I never said you couldn't voice your opinion. What I am opposed to is
|> trying to force people to behave a certain way.
|
|Which is what you are doing.
Well, only if you can force someone to be non-coercive.
That's like telling everyone to be a non-conformist.
|> |> |> The Stalinist purges of the 1930s killed a vast number of mennonites.
|> |> |
|> |> |Very true.
|> |> |
|> |> |The Czarist regime was also pretty mean to the Mennonite community.
|> |> |
|> |>
|> |> An exception being Katherine the Great.
|> |
|> |So, what's your point?
|>
|> So she wasn't a Czar that was mean to the Mennonites. Stop making rash
|> generalizations.
|
|I don't know much about Czarina Catherine the Great.
You make a generalization that the Czarist regime was cruel to the
Mennonites, but admit you don't know all the much about them.
|> |> |> Many mennonite familys lost brothers and fathers in that.
|> |> |
|> |> |And Mennonites were not the only group targetted in that horrific manner. The
|> |> |Ukrainians and Tartars also come to mind.
|> |>
|> |> I never claimed that exclusivity.
|> |
|> |Thank-you.
|>
|> Not a problem. I try to be honest and stick to the facts.
|>
|> |> |> Anyone who
|> |> |> was a preacher was taken, anyone who had money was taken. Anyone who
|> |> |> didn't want to be in the army was taken. Both my grandfathers were
|> |> |> among those men.
|> |> |
|> |> |Very sorry to here that. Millions were victims of Stalin genocidal purges. I have
|> |> |Ukrainian friends that told me the stories of what it was like for their relatives
|> |> |during that time.
|> |>
|> |> They'd come in the middle of the night, take the fathers, and if not
|> |> shoot them, send them to the prison camps. Most of them never survived
|> |> the trip.
|> |
|> |I was once told a story by friend who had a relative executed simply because he was looking
|> |for wood to put in the stove. You and I are well aware of the crimes committed during
|> |Stalin's reign of terror.
|>
|> Yes. A lot of similar incidents continued until the KGB was disbanded
|> as well.
|
|Other secret polic organizations carried out simialr tactics.
And what do they have in common, Glen?
They're run by the state.
|> |> |> Also, during the Russian Revolution, many mennonites were put into
|> |> |> financial ruin. My grandmother grew up in a nice house with servants
|> |> |> in the Ukraine, but it was all destroyed during the Revolution.
|> |> |
|> |> |All traces of the Hallick family history was eradicated thanks to WW2. I do know the
|> |> |family was orginally from Germany and emigrated to Ukraine. According to an aunt the
|> |> |family farmed somewheres near Kiev before coming to Canada.
|> |>
|> |> My family was the opposite, the fled to Germany during the war,
|> |> retreating with the German army. They didn't know about the jewish
|> |> holocaust then, they only wanted to get away from their own holocaust.
|> |
|> |Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and many other peoples initially saw the
|> |German military and its Axis partners as liberators until they learned they were just as
|> |bloodthristy as Stalin's regime. Exchaniging one genocidal maniac for another ain't much of
|> |a choice.
|>
|> A good movie you should try to get a hold of, that was locally
|> produced, is "And When They shall Ask..." It tells the story of
|> mennonites fleeing the Ukraine.
|
|Who made it and where can I get it?
Produced by David Dueck. I'll try to get contact info.
I know they're showing it at Jubilee Place, 181 Riverton Ave., on
March 5 and 6 at 7:00.
Tickets available at Hull's bookstore, or at the door.
|> |> |BTW, Tim the great losses in the Russian Revolution and the insuing civil war cannot
|> |> |be solely accorded to the Bolsheviks and their followers. The Whites were just as bad.
|> |>
|> |> Nestor Machno comes to mind.
|> |
|> |I'm not that fimiliar with the Russian Civil War. Who was this Machno?
|>
|> Machno was one of Mikhail Bakunin's anarchistic followers. His small
|> band went through many Mennonite villages and killed people pretty
|> much at random, the usual revolutionary raping and pillaging. There's
|> not much written on him, but I have a biography on him. You can borrow
|> it if you like, but it's in German.
|
|Sorry, I made the mistake of not learning German.
I wasn't faulting you for not knowing German.
|> |snip.
|> |
|> |>
|> |> |>
|> |> |> To have all that taken away from them by some gooddoers was a slap in
|> |> |> the face, and so you won't see many Mennonites become socialists.
|> |> |
|> |> |Hhhmmm...are your referring to the Bolsheviks as do-gooders? That can be construed as
|> |> |an admission that the regime was an improvement to Russia had before.
|> |>
|> |> Well, self-titled dogooders. I don't think anything they did was good.
|> |> I guess I should have put quotes around the term.
|> |
|> |From a historical perspective I am not that surprised the Bolsheviks were so successful
|> |given the reign of terror of the Czarist regime. Anything was preferable to the way the
|> |Russian and the other peoples in the Empire were being treated. I look at Russia today and
|> |see an opportunity for history to repeat itself. Whether it's the return of the Communists
|> |or the acession of a Nazi/Fascist/far-right regime remains to be seen.
|>
|> Neither is good. Right now Russia is primarily controlled by the black
|> market and mafias.
|
|It would seem to me that the totally unregulated economy by the black market and the mafia would
|be your Utopia.
You don't know a lot then.
Because they all promise too much. If a party ran on a platform to
protect our rights, creating a society in which people can live their
lives and undertake projects reasonably secure from threat of murder,
assault, theft, or foreign invasion. Very simple.
|> The platforms that candidates run
|> on are packages, and the way most people vote is to look at the
|> package, and find out which candidate supports the more important
|> issues (in the opinion of the individual voter), and will disregard
|> the lesser (again, in the opinion of the individual voter), regardless
|> on if they agree or disagree with the candiadate.
|
|I could agree with that
|
|Glen
Ptim
---
"In the end more than they wanted freedom, they
wanted security. When the Athenians finally wanted
not to give to society but for society to give to
them, when the freedom they wished for was freedom
from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."
-- Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)
beergut
>
> On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:43:15 GMT, bee...@nohome.com (beergut) spake
> thusly:
>
> >>Given the reign of the free market worldwide...what is your
> >>allternative?
> >
>
> Hmmm... are you including ALL taxes at ALL levels?
> If not then a 25% flat tax would kill me, since I pay no tax thanx to
> having my daughter as equivalent to spouse and disabled.
Tough question, I'll have to think it out. I had a reply, but I wasn't
satisified with it. I'll save this one for coffee in the morning ;)
cheers
beergut
Opus-
thusly:
>>Given the reign of the free market worldwide...what is your
>>allternative?
>
>A 25% flat tax! Personal and corporate.
Hmmm... are you including ALL taxes at ALL levels?
If not then a 25% flat tax would kill me, since I pay no tax thanx to
having my daughter as equivalent to spouse and disabled.
--
jbu...@remove.videonwave.com
(Jim, single dad to Lesleigh [Autistic] 04/20/94)
"Revenge is a dish best served cold"
--old Klingon proverb
Opus-
thusly:
>Opus- wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:43:15 GMT, bee...@nohome.com (beergut) spake
>> thusly:
>>
>> >>Given the reign of the free market worldwide...what is your
>> >>allternative?
>> >
>> >A 25% flat tax! Personal and corporate.
>>
>> Hmmm... are you including ALL taxes at ALL levels?
>> If not then a 25% flat tax would kill me, since I pay no tax thanx to
>> having my daughter as equivalent to spouse and disabled.
>
>Tough question, I'll have to think it out. I had a reply, but I wasn't
>satisified with it. I'll save this one for coffee in the morning ;)
Exactly. The poorest people pay the least tax now....some pay none.
A 25% flat tax could really hurt them.
Now if it replaced ALL taxes at ALL levels...it may work ok. The feds
can distribute the cash to the lower levels of government on a
per-head basis plus an amount for equalization.
Doug Browning
Craig Bennett wrote:
> Hmmm... not as good as the star trek one with spock and kirk going at it.
> now that was classic.
>
> Craig
>
> | Craig Bennett <thec...@NOSPAMmindless.com>
> | About 2700 Jokes: TheClyde's Searchable Humor Archive
> | http://www.pangea.ca/~theclyde/jokes
> | ** Now more than 3500 jokes in the archive **
> | (remove the NOSPAM to email me)
--
Doug Browning
doug...@mb.imag.net
www.mb.imag.net/~wpg750