To date, anyone raising accessibility issues and proposing fixes is doing so either on wp-hackers, wp-testers, on the forums or in responses to surveys. Accessibility is an aspect of WP development that would benefit from an informal "working group" and having its own mailing list would enable those of us who know ATAG, WCAG and the other accessibility guidelines well, and how to implement them, to bring forward issues and reach agreement on the most appropriate fixes.
There are a number of people outside of wp-hackers who are interested in seeing WordPress become accessible and having a mailing list may encourage these people to contribute.
Getting all accessibility issues into one place would be a great step forward on its own. Too much inaccurate advice is being given elsewhere, including on the tracker, and this creates the risk that the core team can end up wasting time on code that they think will aid accessibility, but which does not - thereby compounding the problems.
I hope you will view this request favourably and set up a new wp-accessibility mailing list. Apologies if this is not the right place to ask - I couldn't see where else I should direct this request.
What a great thought, to connect people who know a lot about accessibility, ATAG, WCAG, etc. and could identify the issues (but not necessarily fix them), with other people who care and have the time/knowledge to patch WP but not the accessibility domain knowledge to know what should be done (such as myself).
Regards, Jennifer
ps: If Automattic declines to start a new list, we could also get one going easily on Google Groups. And if we did that, we could still list it on the Mailing Lists page of the Codex (it's a Wiki). Just a thought.
Lynne Pope wrote: > This is a request for a new mailing list please.
> To date, anyone raising accessibility issues and proposing fixes is doing so > either on wp-hackers, wp-testers, on the forums or in responses to surveys. > Accessibility is an aspect of WP development that would benefit from an > informal "working group" and having its own mailing list would enable those > of us who know ATAG, WCAG and the other accessibility guidelines well, and > how to implement them, to bring forward issues and reach agreement on the > most appropriate fixes.
-- Jennifer Hodgdon * Poplar ProductivityWare www.poplarware.com Drupal, WordPress, and custom Web programming
Well I had suggested it elsewhere, so count me in. I can probably cajole 4 or 5 WP/accessibility people as well. -- my mind is on a permanent tangent http://cms.elfden.co.uk/ _______________________________________________ wp-hackers mailing list wp-hack...@lists.automattic.com http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
> This is a request for a new mailing list please.
> To date, anyone raising accessibility issues and proposing fixes is > doing so > either on wp-hackers, wp-testers, on the forums or in responses to > surveys. > Accessibility is an aspect of WP development that would benefit from > an > informal "working group" and having its own mailing list would > enable those > of us who know ATAG, WCAG and the other accessibility guidelines > well, and > how to implement them, to bring forward issues and reach agreement > on the > most appropriate fixes.
> There are a number of people outside of wp-hackers who are > interested in > seeing WordPress become accessible and having a mailing list may > encourage > these people to contribute.
> Getting all accessibility issues into one place would be a great step > forward on its own. Too much inaccurate advice is being given > elsewhere, > including on the tracker, and this creates the risk that the core > team can > end up wasting time on code that they think will aid accessibility, > but > which does not - thereby compounding the problems.
> I hope you will view this request favourably and set up a new > wp-accessibility mailing list. > Apologies if this is not the right place to ask - I couldn't see > where else > I should direct this request.
This is/was a really good idea.
And now we have working mailing list admin again we now have the list created.
> This is a request for a new mailing list please.
>> To date, anyone raising accessibility issues and proposing fixes is doing >> so >> either on wp-hackers, wp-testers, on the forums or in responses to >> surveys. >> Accessibility is an aspect of WP development that would benefit from an >> informal "working group" and having its own mailing list would enable >> those >> of us who know ATAG, WCAG and the other accessibility guidelines well, and >> how to implement them, to bring forward issues and reach agreement on the >> most appropriate fixes.
>> There are a number of people outside of wp-hackers who are interested in >> seeing WordPress become accessible and having a mailing list may encourage >> these people to contribute.
>> Getting all accessibility issues into one place would be a great step >> forward on its own. Too much inaccurate advice is being given elsewhere, >> including on the tracker, and this creates the risk that the core team can >> end up wasting time on code that they think will aid accessibility, but >> which does not - thereby compounding the problems.
>> I hope you will view this request favourably and set up a new >> wp-accessibility mailing list. >> Apologies if this is not the right place to ask - I couldn't see where >> else >> I should direct this request.
> This is/was a really good idea.
> And now we have working mailing list admin again we now have the list > created.
I , for one, would like to be on record as saying this is a HORRIBLE idea - especially in 2009. As someone that has been involved in web accessibility since 1996 (yes, before the formation of WAI) and wordpress developer since pre-1.2, I feel strongly that accessibility is nothing more stan standards based development. Separate is not equal, and detracts from widespread awareness/adoption.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Lynne Pope<lynne.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2009/8/7 Peter Westwood <peter.westw...@ftwr.co.uk>
>> On 3 May 2009, at 09:02, Lynne Pope wrote:
>> This is a request for a new mailing list please.
>>> To date, anyone raising accessibility issues and proposing fixes is doing >>> so >>> either on wp-hackers, wp-testers, on the forums or in responses to >>> surveys. >>> Accessibility is an aspect of WP development that would benefit from an >>> informal "working group" and having its own mailing list would enable >>> those >>> of us who know ATAG, WCAG and the other accessibility guidelines well, and >>> how to implement them, to bring forward issues and reach agreement on the >>> most appropriate fixes.
>>> There are a number of people outside of wp-hackers who are interested in >>> seeing WordPress become accessible and having a mailing list may encourage >>> these people to contribute.
>>> Getting all accessibility issues into one place would be a great step >>> forward on its own. Too much inaccurate advice is being given elsewhere, >>> including on the tracker, and this creates the risk that the core team can >>> end up wasting time on code that they think will aid accessibility, but >>> which does not - thereby compounding the problems.
>>> I hope you will view this request favourably and set up a new >>> wp-accessibility mailing list. >>> Apologies if this is not the right place to ask - I couldn't see where >>> else >>> I should direct this request.
>> This is/was a really good idea.
>> And now we have working mailing list admin again we now have the list >> created.
> I , for one, would like to be on record as saying this is a HORRIBLE > idea - especially in 2009. As someone that has been involved in web > accessibility since 1996 (yes, before the formation of WAI) and > wordpress developer since pre-1.2, I feel strongly that accessibility > is nothing more stan standards based development. Separate is not > equal, and detracts from widespread awareness/adoption.
This list is not for keeping accessibility separate - it simpy provides an area where those with an interest and/or expertise in understanding web accessibility can get together to discuss areas of concern within the WordPress core code, and agree on patches to the code to address accessibility issues.
These kinds of discussions have been held periodically on wp-hackers, with the result of creating noise for those whose interest lies in other directions. As a result of some of those discussions amongst programmers, well-meaning but damaging changes were proposed (such as alt tags on labels). Sure, that example is one where Standards are broken, but the end result of wp-hackers discussions is that we saw a lot of well-intentioned developers setting themselves up for a lot of unnecessary work that would have left WordPress less accessible. IMO, there needed to be a place where an informal workgroup could get together and address accessibility issues. I made the request for this mailing list after first raising the idea on wp-hackers, and getting support for it there and through external discussions.
Users need to have a place to raise accessibility issues and those working with ATAG, WAI, and WCAG may not necessarily be PHP coders or have any interest in wading through all the wp-hacker discussions. There was no other mailing list suitable. Raising awareness of accessibility is not the intention but could well be the outcome if enough people get behind the initiative to make WordPress accessible.
I am sorry that you feel the existance of this list is a horrible idea. It was mooted (and discussed) for several months before it became reality and until now, there has only been a positive response.
Hi David. The fact is that while we want WordPress developers to all be cognizant of and dedicated to ensuring accessibility, not everyone is an expert. Fobbing it off as the equivalent of standards-compliant code is a copout, IMO, because I've seen chats between the four core developers when the accessibility-recommended technique was different than the standard accepted coding practice for something, and when you work in the hacks needed to support multiple platform/browser combinations, let's face it, nothing is simple.
The point of the list is not to further segment accessibility out of the main development discussion, but to help get errors fixed more promptly. With each release, there are a couple of volunteers who review trunk and give us recommendations on what was missed. The process for that is non-existent though, and generally involves me or a core dev asking someone to review trunk, run it through a couple of screen readers, etc. to find things for us to fix. Just as the wp- testers list harnesses the QA power of a wide group of people without asking each one individually to QA on a daily basis, so will the wp- accessibility list harness the abilities of a wider contributing group without placing undue burden on any.
By having a place for discussion, the accessibility-oriented minds among us can review the app on an ongoing basis and identify things to fix as they appear, rather than waiting until a release is almost finished. Different approaches to the fix itself can be discussed, leading to a better recommendation for implementation. I expect there will still be accessibility discussions on the wp-hackers list on occasion, but for focused accessibility problem solving, I think a separate list is appropriate so that people who are interested in accessibility but not so much in how to deal with database issues can avoid an overflowing inbox of hackers emails. Those who are passionate about both can just join both lists. Jane
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On Aug 10, 2009, at 9:05 PM, David Clark wrote:
I , for one, would like to be on record as saying this is a HORRIBLE idea - especially in 2009. As someone that has been involved in web accessibility since 1996 (yes, before the formation of WAI) and wordpress developer since pre-1.2, I feel strongly that accessibility is nothing more stan standards based development. Separate is not equal, and detracts from widespread awareness/adoption.
Hi David. The fact is that while we want WordPress developers to all be cognizant of and dedicated to ensuring accessibility, not everyone is an expert. Fobbing it off as the equivalent of standards-compliant code is a copout, IMO, because I've seen chats between the four core developers when the accessibility-recommended technique was different than the standard accepted coding practice for something, and when you work in the hacks needed to support multiple platform/browser combinations, let's face it, nothing is simple.
The point of the list is not to further segment accessibility out of the main development discussion, but to help get errors fixed more promptly. With each release, there are a couple of volunteers who review trunk and give us recommendations on what was missed. The process for that is non-existent though, and generally involves me or a core dev asking someone to review trunk, run it through a couple of screen readers, etc. to find things for us to fix. Just as the wp- testers list harnesses the QA power of a wide group of people without asking each one individually to QA on a daily basis, so will the wp- accessibility list harness the abilities of a wider contributing group without placing undue burden on any.
By having a place for discussion, the accessibility-oriented minds among us can review the app on an ongoing basis and identify things to fix as they appear, rather than waiting until a release is almost finished. Different approaches to the fix itself can be discussed, leading to a better recommendation for implementation. I expect there will still be accessibility discussions on the wp-hackers list on occasion, but for focused accessibility problem solving, I think a separate list is appropriate so that people who are interested in accessibility but not so much in how to deal with database issues can avoid an overflowing inbox of hackers emails. Those who are passionate about both can just join both lists. Jane
........................
On Aug 10, 2009, at 9:05 PM, David Clark wrote:
I , for one, would like to be on record as saying this is a HORRIBLE idea - especially in 2009. As someone that has been involved in web accessibility since 1996 (yes, before the formation of WAI) and wordpress developer since pre-1.2, I feel strongly that accessibility is nothing more stan standards based development. Separate is not equal, and detracts from widespread awareness/adoption.
